Latest / Project Podcast / Leading the government property profession, with Lynda Rawsthorne

Transcript

Leading the government property profession, with Lynda Rawsthorne · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM Podcast, brought to you by the Chartered
0:11
Body for the Project Profession. This episode is part of our
0:15
series of Senior Leader Interviews hosted by APM Chief
0:18
Executive Professor Adam Bodison.
0:21
This time, Adam is in conversation with Linda
0:23
Rawsthorn, who's head of the government property profession.
0:27
Sitting within the Cabinet Office.
0:29
Linda is responsible for the strategy for the whole
0:31
government estate, which covers everything from hospitals to
0:35
courts and offices. She describes her role as
0:38
engaging, encouraging and motivating the 7000 plus
0:41
professionals who make up the property profession in
0:44
government. Listen on to hear her chat with
0:47
Adam about her route from surveyor to Project leader, the
0:50
risks surrounding delivery of major programmes in government
0:53
and the civil services commitment to lifelong learning.
1:02
Well, hello Linda, and welcome to the APM Podcast.
1:05
It's a real pleasure to have you here with us today.
1:09
I wonder if, to start with, you might tell us a little bit about
1:11
your career journey and how you came to enter the government
1:15
property profession. Thank you, Adam, and thank you
1:18
very much for having me today. So it was a bit of an accident
1:22
in that I did a surveying degree at university and we were told
1:28
that to get the best training, UH, the place to go is the
1:31
Valuation Office Agency, which is part of the civil Service.
1:34
And so I joined them straight from university with the thought
1:37
that I would spend some time in the public sector before
1:40
probably moving to the private sector.
1:42
But in the meantime I then married someone in the Air Force
1:46
and we then started the cycle of moving every two years and the
1:51
Valuation Office Agency back in those days had hundreds of
1:54
offices and was amazing and move me every time I went.
1:57
Gave me a seven-year career break when we went abroad and
2:00
also valued the different skills that I gained by retraining as a
2:04
teacher while I was abroad and doing lots of presentations and
2:07
so on and so forth. So I actually have really never
2:11
left all my career the government property profession.
2:15
So I stayed with the Valuation Office until 2016, when I moved
2:20
over to started moving to other departments such as Department
2:23
of Education with the Priority School Building Programme and
2:27
then on to Ministry of Justice with the new prisons programme
2:31
because I love big infrastructure.
2:33
Which then that to me, of course, to HS2 at Department of
2:37
Transport and now at the Office of Government Property, where
2:40
I'm with loads of colleagues in the property profession, which
2:43
is a real pleasure of a place to be.
2:45
That sounds like a a stellar career and and there's lots of
2:48
that. I'd love to go into more if we
2:49
had time, but perhaps you could tell us a bit more about what
2:52
your current remit is and your current role and what that
2:55
involves. Yes, of course.
2:56
So I moved to this role only last August.
3:00
So I'm a director in the Office of Government Property and
3:03
that's in the Cabinet Office. And in short, it's responsible
3:07
for the strategy for the whole government estate, so from
3:10
hospitals to courts to offices. And I and my team don't look
3:15
after them directly. That's done by officials across
3:18
the property profession within the departments and the arm
3:20
length bodies. But instead I sit as part of
3:23
that team, the centre, engaging, encouraging and motivating the
3:28
over 7000 professionals who make up the property profession.
3:32
And part of my role is being the head of profession.
3:35
It was really important to me because we have a mix of people
3:39
who come up through the civil service and those who joined
3:42
from the private sector. I really wanted the head of the
3:45
government property profession to be internal, which is one of
3:48
the reasons I applied for it, to show that you can grow your
3:50
career without having to go and do lots of different things
3:54
outside. So it's an absolute pleasure to
3:57
spend my time leaning in working on the skills of our people and
4:03
and obviously working with the PM as part of that to help us
4:06
have the right skills at the right times to deliver the
4:09
really challenging projects that we have in government.
4:12
Absolutely. And we're obviously thrilled to
4:14
to have you as part of the APM family as I call it and
4:17
especially as one of our, our fellows of course.
4:19
I mean just thinking about what you said there Linda, 7000
4:23
people within within that group. I mean I think people will be
4:26
surprised at just how large that is and and and probably I think
4:29
people will will probably have a lot of misconceptions about the
4:33
government estate as well and and just the size and shape of
4:36
that. Maybe people would think it's
4:38
all london-based and it's you know the the the the buildings
4:41
that probably they're familiar with in terms of the individual
4:44
government departments. But I guess it's a lot bigger
4:46
than that and probably a lot more widespread.
4:48
I wonder if you might tell us a bit about that and how big it
4:50
is. So people think the government
4:53
is states offices, but sort of things I spoke about, I mean it
4:56
is, it's prisons, it's schools, it's defence which is 34.3
5:01
million metre squared just as a a sort of looking at their
5:05
buildings, job centres, courts and tribunals and of course
5:08
health before you start. And in terms of size, I mean
5:13
we've got 142,000 build assets with a value of about £181
5:18
billion and 25.3 billion per annum running costs.
5:24
And that's just central government, because we also work
5:27
through some of our programmes with our local government
5:29
colleagues. So it's a massive piece of work.
5:32
And as you will know, not all of our property is in the best
5:37
repair. So there's all the challenges
5:40
that we've had recently with Rack and understanding how we
5:44
make sure we can afford to keep our properties, the right
5:48
properties for what we deliver. It brings a whole new meaning to
5:52
this idea of asset management, doesn't it?
5:54
You know, when you've got something of that volume and
5:56
complexity and and and overlapping and moving parts as
5:59
well. Because I suppose you know, we
6:01
hear about lots of things, you know, new things being
6:04
constructed in terms of infrastructure.
6:06
But I guess there's lots of decommissioning and changing of
6:09
purpose of of, of, of, of different parts of the estate as
6:12
well. I mean that's that's pretty
6:14
challenging. I wonder, I wonder if I might
6:16
just ask about the different professions that exist within,
6:21
you know, the property world, because obviously we care hugely
6:24
about the project profession, but I guess property spans
6:27
multiple professions and I wonder if you might say a little
6:30
bit about the different professions and how they all
6:32
interact and work with each other.
6:34
So I started as a surveyor, but as I moved into different roles,
6:39
I actually spent a lot of time with the operational delivery
6:42
profession because a lot of we do is producing valuations and
6:47
things that are needed and it it kind of moved through the sort
6:50
of operational delivery model. And then as time went on and I
6:54
got much more interested in infrastructure, a real link in
6:58
with the project management fresh and I think that is the
7:00
major overlap. So when you have a major project
7:04
at a certain level in government, you get the
7:06
privilege of going on the major projects Leadership Academy.
7:10
And as part of that I was made an APM student member.
7:15
So I felt felt very, very certain age to be a student
7:20
member, but delighted. And I definitely took advantage
7:23
as I would say to anybody of the amazing student and the prices
7:27
to go to your conferences. So I went to a lot of
7:29
conferences over that period as well.
7:32
And I work really closely with Karina Singh who is head of the
7:37
project management profession within government and we have a
7:40
lot of people who you hold a major profession, but you can
7:44
hold a second one. And through my career, at
7:47
various times I've blipped and had project management.
7:51
It's my main profession and property is my second, as
7:54
appropriate to the sort of role that I'm on.
7:55
Because to do great infrastructure you need both
7:59
sets of skills. And we're really keen to bring
8:03
those people into government but also train them and protect them
8:07
because we have such a number of projects on the go at the
8:10
moment. So I say we we link it with all
8:13
the other projects, but the project management profession is
8:17
the one we really have the most contact with.
8:20
OK, now that makes sense. And I suppose the thing I wanted
8:24
to get your insights on Lynda was the particular challenges
8:29
and risks around delivery of major programmes and
8:31
governments. And the reason I want to ask
8:33
about this is whenever you hear about government programmes and
8:37
projects, you know, in the media for example, it's always pretty
8:41
challenging reading. You know, there's always a focus
8:43
on, you know, things that are have run late or over budget and
8:47
so on. And we'll probably hear less
8:49
about the really good news stories that you know, the
8:51
projects that have gone well in government.
8:53
Is that because there aren't so many of those or do we just not
8:56
hear about them or or is it just a pretty challenging context
8:59
with a with a lot of moving parts and it's inevitably going
9:02
to have those kinds of disruptions?
9:05
Well, I say in terms of do they go well, don't they?
9:08
I think it's a mix and I think like with all news, it's always
9:12
the ones that go over cost and over budget that make the news
9:14
and people focus on. Although we do do a good job in
9:18
terms of promoting some of the programmes that have gone
9:21
particularly well. And it's funny because earlier
9:23
today I was listening to your podcast with Baroness Valentine
9:27
who of course was also talking about some of the big public
9:30
sector projects and and her views on risk management, which
9:33
I think is one of the challenging ones that you can,
9:36
if you're not careful, have one so many risks, there's no point
9:40
having them because you've just got too many.
9:42
And also that interlink of risks with other critical
9:47
stakeholders. When I was reflecting on my sort
9:50
of career in projects, I think the challenge relates to the
9:52
size of many of our projects and the changes that can happen over
9:57
time in terms of benefits, realisation and budget.
10:00
Because if you go over multiple governments, multiple years, we
10:06
have different pressures and different priorities.
10:08
And of course the recent pandemic was one in particular
10:12
that really was changing everything.
10:14
But you know ultimately it's it's a changing world and so
10:18
keeping the focus on things for a long time, especially if costs
10:21
start changing and with infrastructure projects that is
10:24
something that can happen. I think they are some of our
10:29
real challenge. We do now gateway reviews across
10:33
all the key stages of major government projects and I joined
10:37
that team as part of the major projects Leadership Academy that
10:40
I did and that is something that I've really think works well for
10:44
us. So I've reviewed new hospitals,
10:46
the Queen Elizabeth Tower and most recently the Cladding
10:49
remediation programme post Grenfell.
10:52
And I think understanding and collaborating, which is
10:57
something again we we do through the APM and the various
11:00
networking and learning opportunities that you have are
11:04
something that are protecting us for the future.
11:05
But there's no doubt with big projects, things keep changing.
11:09
And I notice when I did the school programme we had hundreds
11:13
of schools in construction, which meant if you've got caught
11:15
on planning in one you could carry on with the other.
11:18
I think it's when it's big individual things, it's very
11:22
difficult to keep them on track and anything that pauses the
11:25
programme pauses everything. And really interesting, you
11:28
mentioned the podcast we did with with Baroness Valentine.
11:31
She had some pretty strong views as I recall.
11:34
Ohh the different aspects of of governments and and and didn't
11:38
pull any punches. So you know for any listeners
11:41
listening to this conversation the the next step if you haven't
11:44
listened to it already is definitely to go and listen to
11:47
that discussion with Baroness Valentine who had who actually
11:50
had lots to say about HS2. So very topical I think at the
11:53
moment, let's let's turn to skills because we know that
11:58
trying to have a pipeline of really talented people is is
12:03
important that demand for project professionals globally
12:07
is huge. You know I, I keep seeing these
12:09
reports of we need 88,000,000 project professionals by 2027
12:14
within the UK alone. There is huge demand in the
12:17
public sector, the private sector, the third sector for for
12:20
project professionals. So there's not enough people.
12:23
So capacity challenge and then actually getting people to have
12:26
the right skills, you know now it's a I but there's also all
12:29
all all these very specialist areas of the project profession
12:32
as well. And then obviously we're looking
12:33
at government itself and and and particularly the property aspect
12:37
of things as you've already said that requires not just the
12:40
projects skills but also the the the kind of infrastructure,
12:43
property construction side of things as well.
12:45
So how on earth do you respond to that scale of challenge and
12:50
and make sure you've got high quality people coming into
12:52
government to to meet those demands?
12:55
Well, I can't pretend to eat. It's easy.
12:57
We've we've come at it a lot of ways.
12:59
One of the things that we do now for project and property
13:02
professionals is look at all different routes in so we've
13:05
traditionally had graduate schemes.
13:08
Now we have far streams that are specific for the professions
13:12
that we bring people in and that means that they then get moved
13:15
periodically to different roles. They have sustained training and
13:18
come out at quite a high grade after sort of three or four
13:21
years. But we also have
13:23
apprenticeships. And one thing that's worked
13:26
really well for us for the fast stream and the apprenticeships
13:28
is taking people in who are already in the civil service but
13:32
not necessarily in this area. And we find that people like
13:35
that tend to stay as well. If they've, you know, done 10
13:39
years in the civil service in a certain role, but they can't see
13:42
their way forward. It's a brilliant opportunity to
13:44
be able to apply for our apprenticeships or our fast
13:47
stream and then be put into that specific profession.
13:51
And one of the things that we have really begun to understand
13:56
is how many people leave our professions.
13:59
And we were sort of looking particularly in the built
14:01
environment. There's been some recent
14:03
statistics to say that 43% of women and 49% of ethnic
14:08
minorities have left the profession by the time they're
14:11
35, which you know, we're busy trying to recruit.
14:14
And in the meantime we've actually, you know, lost people
14:18
in the interim. So we are absolutely focused on
14:21
that. And the Valuation Office Agency
14:23
I work with have just introduced a back to work scheme.
14:26
So really encouraging people that have taken time out and
14:29
trying to get them back and understand how we can sort of
14:32
keep them there. But absolutely.
14:34
And the other thing we do for senior roles in particular, we
14:37
are external by default, which means that we reach into as wide
14:42
a field as we can. And certainly I've seen a lot of
14:45
roles recently where people have come in from the private sector
14:50
or the 3rd sector and sort of really showing us different
14:53
skills and learning from us and we we really like that the the
14:56
learning from one another. It's a it's a really interesting
15:00
point because we we see that within the APM membership as
15:02
well. One some of the gender
15:05
challenges that you you talked about there, we we we see that
15:07
that's a kind of you know something we're proactively
15:09
looking at. But also I think there are
15:12
people who in their career kind of move in and out of project
15:16
roles. You know, sometimes they're in
15:18
kind of very clear project delivery roles, but then they'll
15:20
be in something which is maybe more of an executive leadership
15:23
role and it's not, you know, there might be some aspects of
15:25
project delivery, it's not squarely that and then they come
15:27
back into a maybe a programme delivery role and and so they
15:31
move in and out and so we see them move in and out of the
15:33
membership. And it was really interesting
15:35
since what you were saying then about that the kind of trying to
15:38
get people back, is that just a natural, you know, pathway of
15:41
their career as it were or actually are there some
15:43
underlying challenges and reasons why people might be
15:47
moving, moving away from the profession.
15:49
I I suspect it's probably a bit of both of those things.
15:52
But yes, it it's certainly, certainly retention is is an
15:57
important part and probably as important as recruitment and
16:00
getting new people into the profession.
16:02
I certainly know. So I had a seven-year career
16:05
break and when the time came to come back, I did feel
16:07
tremendously nervous because you know, project management moves
16:11
on, doesn't it? New theories come, new models
16:13
come, but I think it's about having a supportive environment.
16:17
I was able to come back part time, which was really helpful
16:20
for me. But there is something about if
16:23
you've got good project fundamentals, they stand the
16:26
test of time and they give you such a great basis.
16:29
So I do think there's something about giving confidence to
16:32
people to say that, you know, you might have had a a couple of
16:36
years, like I said, in another role that doesn't so closely
16:39
need those project skills, but you've still got them and
16:41
there's great ways of refreshing.
16:43
There's so many different resources to refresh your
16:46
knowledge. Interestingly, I've just written
16:49
an article for the Project Journal and it was all to do
16:52
with skills and I can't remember the exact title.
16:55
And it was something like, it's just like learning to ride a
16:57
bicycle. And the point I was making is
17:00
that, like you were saying, some of those skills stay with you
17:03
kind of for a long time. Even if you've been, you know,
17:05
not riding a bike for seven years or you've been out of, uh,
17:07
you know, particular role for years and you can come back and
17:10
it's just the same. But equally things are changing
17:13
quite quickly as well. And there can be an advantage
17:16
sometimes if you've been out of it for a while because it means
17:18
you're also not too set in how things used to be.
17:22
And I talk about the need to be able to learn, unlearn and
17:26
relearn skills as being a skill in its own right.
17:29
So it's just really interesting what you're saying because I'm,
17:32
I'm wondering whether actually those people listening to this,
17:34
who maybe they've been out of the profession for a while,
17:37
maybe they are like you you were describing, a bit anxious about
17:40
coming back. They might actually have huge
17:43
value to bring by nature of the fact that they are not too set
17:47
in a particular way of thinking and can come in with that fresh
17:50
perspective. Yeah, No, that sounds absolutely
17:52
right to me. I think it it takes hold your
17:56
breath and go for it. But you you've got so much to
17:59
offer and people have done different things.
18:02
They've multitask, they've, you know, I I found that managing
18:05
three children, my time management was so much better
18:08
than it had been before for filling the unfulfilled minute.
18:11
You know, I can get 100 things done in a way that I couldn't
18:14
before and actually that that's very useful in project
18:17
management. And tell me about it.
18:19
I've got 3 youngsters here with me in the house today, hopefully
18:22
not appearing on this podcast. That's certainly not the
18:24
intention. It would be remiss not to
18:26
mention chartership, right? You know we we obviously have
18:29
this vision for chartership to become the expected global
18:33
standard. Obviously chartership something
18:35
you know and care a lot about as well.
18:37
I wonder what you think the role of the the chartered Standard is
18:41
within government and what I don't know.
18:43
Do you have any thoughts on people who are maybe have been
18:46
thinking for a while about chartership in different parts
18:49
of government? Is it something that you would
18:50
encourage them to do or or what? What advice might you give them
18:54
if they were just about to make that decision?
18:57
Yes, I do. And I was so pleased when the
19:00
Charter Standard came out and absolutely went for it.
19:05
I think my advice same with applying for the fellowship with
19:09
both of them at different times. I I can tell the time is now,
19:14
but gosh, there's there's the paperwork, there's the how am I
19:17
going to find time for it. And I think it just is about
19:21
focusing your mind and realising that once you're getting,
19:23
getting going on it, it's not too onerous.
19:26
It's just a process and it's a real opportunity to share your
19:31
knowledge and be accredited for all the work that you've done.
19:34
So we take accreditation very, very seriously.
19:37
So in my property world, we've got a key performance indicator
19:41
that 90% of those in property are professionally qualified or
19:46
in the process of it by 2030. And I know my colleagues in the
19:49
project management profession are absolutely as focused.
19:53
And we've recently introduced in the project management
19:55
profession internal standards in government to look at expertise.
20:00
So I've recently become a master practitioner and you cannot be a
20:04
master practitioner in government unless you're either
20:07
a fellow of the Association of Project Management or a
20:10
chartered project professional. So you can you can pass all our
20:14
internal tests. But you'll then put on hold
20:16
until you can prove that you have achieved those.
20:19
So that really shows the link that we have with the APM and
20:23
we're also in the civil service committed to lifelong learning.
20:25
So we really see people at the start of their career doing the
20:28
APM qualifications as part of that journey.
20:31
And I just think the chartership is really showing your
20:36
achievement and where you've done.
20:38
And I know when it came in, there was a lot to talk about.
20:40
People said they were project managers, they were project
20:42
directors, but what did they really know?
20:44
Did people just turn up and say they were that.
20:46
So it's it's having that real commitment then to continue your
20:50
professional development and and being part of the community,
20:54
which is what I love both about being a fellow and a chartered
20:57
project professional. Excellent.
20:59
Now that's great. Now we are in an election year.
21:03
Um, well, if there's a chance, I suppose small chance it might be
21:07
pushed into 2025 I suppose. But I think all all bets are
21:11
probably on something happening this year.
21:14
I wonder if if you're allowed to, whether you might reflect on
21:19
how your role or remit might change.
21:22
Thinking of things like levelling up, of which of course
21:25
property is a you know, a huge part, and any any thoughts or
21:29
reflections on that? Was such an interesting question
21:34
and as you say, possibly early next year, but much more likely
21:37
I think to be this year. I would say from a property
21:42
perspective, we are aware that whoever forms the next
21:46
government devolution are moving the civil service roles out of
21:50
London into the regions is going to be a priority.
21:52
It's a priority. Currently we have something
21:55
called Places for Growth, which has a target of moving 22,000
21:59
government roles, relocating them into the regions.
22:02
And that's a lot about representing those communities
22:06
and people being able to build their lives, levelling up, have
22:09
careers. From a property perspective.
22:11
It also means we have something we call the plan for London,
22:14
which is looking at efficient use of buildings and what
22:17
buildings do we need, particularly because we have
22:20
sustainability targets and some of those buildings be
22:23
tremendously difficult to move to be more sustainable.
22:26
So I think that will happen whatever we see.
22:30
And we also have a programme called One Public Estate, which
22:32
brings parties together with local authorities and others to
22:36
start regeneration, which I think is another thing we will
22:39
continue to see and which a lot of politicians have been talking
22:43
about. And the other area which feels
22:46
like it goes on forever is planning reform.
22:48
And we've had many attempts at planning reform.
22:50
And in terms of construction, that is where we often get
22:55
stuck. So it's going to be really
22:56
interesting what focus is going to be on those areas as I think
23:00
everyone will be looking at the financial position, productivity
23:04
and efficiency. Absolutely.
23:07
You wouldn't believe how many times a week I end up in a
23:10
conversation with somebody which starts talking about project
23:14
delivery and then and ends up with some kind of debate around
23:19
planning and planning reform. And you know, you know the
23:22
balance of that local needs versus national needs
23:27
essentially. And and the length of course of
23:30
the planning process with many examples, as I'm sure you'll be
23:32
familiar with of thousands and 10s of thousands in fact of
23:36
pages of of planning documents which then don't go anywhere.
23:38
So definitely some frustrations there, but you know if we had
23:42
the solution, it would be easy, right?
23:43
We would already be doing it. So let's, let's watch this
23:45
space. Now Linda, you mentioned before
23:48
that you are an APM fellow and as I say, we are delighted
23:52
obviously to have you within that very distinguished group.
23:56
But I wonder if you might share with people who don't know
23:58
really much about fellowship, what that means in terms of how
24:03
you're involved with the association and where you see
24:06
the opportunities to kind of give something back, which is of
24:09
course a core part of fellowship.
24:11
Yes, absolutely. I think the I really enjoy the
24:15
the fellowship aspect of it. I I'm very people focused and I
24:19
love the events that you put on both in terms of the speakers
24:25
but also the networking. And I went to Oxford University
24:28
last year and there was a a section of panels and then we
24:32
went, this is one of the colleges and it was great to
24:37
reconnect with people because although we say how many people
24:40
there are in the project world, it's also true that you always
24:44
meet new people as well as old friends.
24:47
And I've actually people I met in Oxford.
24:50
We realised we had synergies in our projects and we've met since
24:54
and sort of talked about where we can learn from one another.
24:57
So I think that's that's a great part of it.
24:59
It's being part of a community and then they sort of I could
25:03
call it giving back. But to be honest with you it it
25:05
still feels like you're giving to me.
25:07
I I'm a a judge. I've judge for the last two
25:10
years that the APM awards and it's like anything I've done
25:14
sustainability and health and safety have been the ones that
25:18
I've been sort of involved with And the they sort of the
25:21
nominations come in you think gosh I I don't know how I
25:23
volunteered for this. I've got no time.
25:25
And then you open them and the joy of seeing what people have
25:29
done and just just amazing some of the nominations and then
25:34
going to the awards and seeing them given and learning about
25:38
the different approaches that people have to their projects is
25:41
a real joy. And last year I also went to the
25:43
volunteers conference which I think was in Manchester and
25:48
through that there were a lot of colleagues from our special
25:50
interest groups and I I suspect that's where I'm going to go
25:54
next. The challenge is there's quite a
25:56
few of the special interest groups that I'm very interested
25:58
in. It's it's the choices, to be
26:00
honest with you, that make it difficult and balancing what you
26:04
prioritise. Because I I also know that the
26:06
sort of mentoring that goes on is another really powerful tool
26:09
that we have, particularly given, as you say, we need
26:12
future generations coming into project management.
26:15
Absolutely. And and and not to add to your,
26:18
you know, the difficult choice you have to make about these
26:21
different interests that works. There is a new one coming that I
26:24
think you'll be particularly interested in, Linda, which is,
26:26
which is sustainability in the built environment.
26:29
So I'm giving a gentle plug to that now, but I know that you in
26:32
particular might be interested in that.
26:36
Yes, that's right. So we we have a strap line at
26:40
APM, which I know you're familiar with, which is because
26:42
when projects succeed, society benefits.
26:45
We love that strap line. Even my children know that strap
26:48
line right that time, which I say even at home.
26:50
But I wonder if I just reflect on that for a moment, where you
26:53
see the opportunity is to add social value in that societal
26:57
benefit through the government, property, profession
27:01
particularly. Yeah, absolutely.
27:03
So it is literally everywhere and it is what drives me.
27:07
I think a lot of people that you talk to in the civil service
27:10
will tell you that it's about making a difference.
27:13
And and firstly with government property, our estate is really
27:18
about enabling. We talk about we create the
27:20
spaces and the spaces create us. If our estate fails in the
27:25
public sector then the consequences are immediate.
27:28
You know, operations are cancelled, children have to go
27:31
home from school. We absolutely are managing an
27:34
estate to facilitate services rather than estate for its own
27:38
sake. The other thing that we are
27:42
really interesting is equality, diversity and inclusion in the
27:46
property profession. It is absolutely not where we
27:48
would want it to be. It lags behind a lot of other
27:51
professions and it feels like we have an opportunity for society
27:55
to benefit by looking at what those blockers are to people
27:58
joining and then what we talked about earlier about people then
28:01
leaving and how we get people across property world to
28:05
teamwork and learn from one another and the professional
28:09
bodies again. One of the things I was thinking
28:13
this morning listening to podcast was Baroness Valentine
28:16
talking about not realising being in a man's world and
28:19
suddenly realising everyone's talking about shooting fishing
28:22
and golf. And I was yesterday having a
28:24
conversation with someone asking them what football team they
28:27
supported. And in my head I was going
28:29
literally, it doesn't matter what they say, I'm, I'm nothing,
28:32
nothing to come back to. I I can ask you what you're
28:34
interested in, but it's it's not my world.
28:36
So I think there is something about society benefits because
28:40
if we get a diversity of view, a diversity of backgrounds into
28:44
our projects and into our properties, we see challenges
28:47
and opportunities that we just don't see if we all come from
28:50
the same backgrounds. Yeah you're you're you're you're
28:53
so right on that and if it makes you feel any better, I'd also be
28:55
useless at the football question as well.
28:58
I rely on other people to help me with that and try and try and
29:01
relay things that I've heard in the taxi or something, you know,
29:03
it's one of those things. But yes, yes, I absolutely agree
29:07
with that Point on on diversity and it echoes a piece of
29:11
research that we commissioned and published which was led by
29:13
Southampton University last year Dynamic Conditions for Project
29:17
Success And that talked about the importance of of diversity
29:21
and sustainability for that matter, but particularly
29:23
diversity in in terms of delivering effective project
29:26
outcomes and and and that was based on exactly as you said,
29:30
getting that diversity of using from the outset because it helps
29:33
you to to shape the project so it works better for society at
29:37
large because of that range of perspectives.
29:39
So yeah really valid points and thank you for for sharing that.
29:43
Now I've got a couple of kind of closing questions I'd like to
29:47
ask if I may and these are ones that I kind of often ask guests
29:50
on the on the podcast and I'm always really fascinated by the
29:54
range of different answers I get.
29:56
So I'm going to start with this one, which is in your, in your
30:00
career at Linda you will have come across lots of different
30:03
project leaders, good ones, ones which may be needed, some
30:07
improvements, some in the middle.
30:09
But the point is, you've probably seen some great ones
30:11
and I wondered if you might for a moment reflect on what we,
30:16
what you would say are the characteristics that make a
30:18
great project leader. What I would say is I've seen
30:22
great project leaders who are totally different to one
30:25
another, so there isn't just one way that wins the the prize.
30:30
But I suppose one of the things that I really see is it's about
30:33
bocus and understanding. So it's the the looking down,
30:36
the knowing how much detail you need to know and how much you
30:40
don't, But also looking up and representing in the ecosystem.
30:44
We have a a phrase that we use which is Whitehall Ninja in
30:50
government, which is someone who knows their way into other
30:54
departments in order to find the right person to be supporting
30:57
the project. So that different ministers get
31:01
reports on the project so that there's much more understanding
31:04
of what's going on and where help is needed and where we can
31:06
make a difference. And I think being really honest
31:10
is a really key part of being a great project leader and
31:13
nurturing and talking about bringing on for the future and
31:16
the next sort of generation. But I suppose the thing that I
31:20
think is, is the best is effective delegation.
31:23
If you can empower the people nearest the decisions to make
31:27
the decisions, they understand all the aspects of it.
31:30
And yes, you might query and you might bring your experience to
31:33
challenge, but ultimately, if you can delegate decisions down
31:36
to the right level, that's where everybody comes in.
31:39
Cause if everyone in your team's got ownership of the project,
31:42
you're on a winner. If people are just sitting there
31:44
along for the ride then it's going to be a very difficult
31:47
fight. There will be people listening
31:49
to to this conversation, Linda, who look at what you've
31:52
achieved, you know, head of the government property profession,
31:55
they're in the Cabinet Office having a huge influence over
31:59
major policy and delivery areas right across the country.
32:02
And they'll say, you know what, I'd love to do that one day and
32:04
they're right at the beginning of their career now.
32:07
What advice would you give the give to them to try and make it
32:11
to to to to achieve the kind of things that you've you've set,
32:14
you've you've achieved? Take every opportunity I have
32:19
always. If I've been offered some
32:22
training or extra role, you know what it's like, additional work
32:27
and you keep what you've got. But can you also take this?
32:29
I have always tried to say yes. I think it's really interesting.
32:34
Looking back at my career now, when I had my children when they
32:38
were young, it felt like that was going to be the hardest
32:41
time. And I know colleagues who say,
32:43
well, I'm going to turn things down now because in years to
32:46
come I'll have more time. I'll be able to dedicate to it.
32:48
But I've reached a stage in my life now where I care for my
32:52
mother and my husband and I care for in laws, mind laws.
32:56
And I didn't. I didn't foresee that there
33:00
would come a time where also my time was limited again.
33:02
So I really say to people there are amazing jobs out there.
33:06
Why would you not get them? But don't think that whatever
33:10
else you've got going on in your life is going to get easier
33:12
necessarily later on. So if you can do it, do it.
33:16
Because I I've just found that all the different learning I've
33:19
done just joins up it. It makes more sense.
33:23
The more you learn, the more you can connect it.
33:25
And it's it's just such a privilege to have been able to
33:28
do such amazing roles and work with such great people.
33:31
Well that is really sound advice and actually you reminded me of
33:34
some advice got early in my own career where someone said to me
33:38
Adam don't put off till tomorrow what you can do today, do it
33:41
today and if you like it you can do it again tomorrow, which
33:44
which is always stuck with me over many years.
33:48
And the other thing that reminded me of was I remember an
33:52
opportunity came for promotion and I said to someone I'm so
33:54
lucky it's it's come up at the right time.
33:57
And he said to me, luck is when preparation meets opportunity
34:01
and I've never forgotten that because it's clever.
34:04
Oh, I really like that. That's excellent.
34:05
Well, that's a great note to to finish on.
34:08
I think. Linda, it's been a pleasure and
34:09
a privilege to have you on the APM Podcast today.
34:13
Thank you for for joining us and for for those listeners.
34:16
I hope you've you've enjoyed it and TuneIn again next time.
34:19
Thank you very much for having me.
34:26
Thanks to Adam and Linda for taking time out to share their
34:28
conversation with the OPM Podcast.
34:31
Don't forget to rate and review us wherever you get your
34:33
podcasts. You can find out more about APM
34:36
Fellowship and the Charter standard@apm.org.uk.
34:40
And if you want to get in touch with your feedback, suggestions
34:43
or ideas for topics we should cover, e-mail us at
34:46
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. Thanks for listening.