Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / Happy Hour #62: Trauma, Trauma, Trauma

Transcript

Happy Hour #62: Trauma, Trauma, Trauma · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to stuff.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I never told you protection of I heart radio and
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: it's time for another happy hour. So cheers. As always,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: drink responsibly if you choose to do so, Samantha, what
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: are you stipping on? I am keeping it simple. I
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: am sleepy, So I'm drinking a coke zero, Cherry Cooke zero. Yes,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: I like the little cherry. I had a friend recently,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: as you know, I never have anything at my apartment,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: so she bought stuff because she was coming hang out
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: with me, and she bought She accidentally bought the space coke.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the cotton candy coke. Yeah. She was very confused,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: but I think she meant to get a coke zero,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: which she got. This it's like, if you don't know list,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: there's there's like this flavor of coca Cola that just
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: came out that's space flavored. It's called Starlight. I think, yeah,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: it's space, but it's essentially cotton candy. M She said
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: it tasted like vanilla coke. Vanilla coke. It has a
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: little sugariness and a little bit of like cherry to me.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: To me, it's like a vanilla coke with cherry, so
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: therefore it makes it a little brighter. In mean to me,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: it was again cotton candy, and a lot of people
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: say this that it is, but there's a few who's like, no,
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: we're talking it tastes like crap. And I was like, okay, sure,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: I'm really Oh well, it's perfect for this episode that
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: not a sponsor. Not a sponsor as always, these are
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: not particularly sponsored by anything we mentioned. Because I just
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: said it tastes like crap, So I think they would
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: be upset if this was sponsored. I don't think they listen, Samantha.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying they doon. Yeah, we were just talking
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: about other people's teak on the matter. Yeah yeah, I'm
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: drinking like a spicy margarita situation. So I went to
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: the grocery store for the first time four weeks yesterday.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: I'm proud of you. I got so many helping you knows,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: so I'm like trying to find ways to use them.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know why I got somebody. I was just
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: love helping you. I do too. I do too. And
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: this is very delicious and very good, and it's good
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: for this episode, which is kind of spicy. I don't
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: think it's a spicy as my last one I did.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: And also the title might sound like this is an
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: unhappy hour, it's not. However, the next one, which is
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: titled The Villain, is going to be a little it's
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: related to this, so it's gonna be a little sad,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: but we'll have to wait for that one. Except for
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: this when I wanted to talk about something that we've
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: mentioned recently and is pretty closely related to what the
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: conversation we had with strategic incompetence, and I even bought
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: it up briefly in there when we were talking about
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: fictional characters. And if you haven't caught that episode, go
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: listen to it. But essentially, strategic incompetence, it is something
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: that a lot of usually men do to get out
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: of a task that they don't want to do, and
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: then women had to pick up the slack and do
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: it and then don't get rewarded for it or recognized
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: for it or anything for it. Um those are very
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: generic terms of what it is, and we were talking
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: about it specifically in like the workplace and family situations,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: and I mentioned in there about fictional characters and this
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: sort of glorification of being an asked, but I also
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: mentioned this idea of fan work around trauma and how
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: we are very willing as fans to forgive or explain
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: away male trauma and especially white male trauma. UM. And
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: we talked about this also in our Survival Horror episode
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: in our semin role like my first Happy Hour episode
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: we ever did, we talked about it, we talked about
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: it in our book club on deb Com, And it
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: was on my mind because as part of a project
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Samantha and I worked on that we've teased and one
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: day we'll get to talk about hopefully, maybe, hopefully maybe,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I was researching the different gender differences in villains and
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: how we portray villains. So this has been on my mind.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: And to start off, I just want to say I
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: don't want this to come off like because I know
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: I can come on strong with my opinions on fiction. Um,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: but as someone who's also very sensitive to my fictional
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: characters and very protective, it's totally okay to like a
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: flawed character. Most good characters are flawed, Like, I'm not
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: trying to come out sposed to be flawed. Yes, yes,
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: it's more of like what we're romanticizing and glorifying in
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: them and this kind of work we do to forgive
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: them that I don't think we give a lot of
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: other characters, a lot of other marginalized characters. So that's
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: kind of the thing, Like a lot of these characters
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: I'm going to mention, I like, I'm just saying I
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: think we should have this conversation. Um, And I've had
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: people fight me up and down that these characters are
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: going to talk about what you're sort of your villainous
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: and then later redeemed male characters are more realistic, Um, Yeah,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: that they went through trauma and we should have sympathy
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: for them, and that the hero characters like this brainwashed
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: goody two shoes and actually the real villain of the
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: thing are at least not as interesting of a character,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: which are all valid and debatable points, um, And certainly
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: based on what you enjoy. It's sort of outside of
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: what we're discussing today. But I will say like I've
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: been attached attact for liking certain characters because they say, like, oh,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: you're that's not a realistic character. Trauma doesn't manifest like,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: it doesn't look like that. I'm like, what, Okay, Anyway,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: So some popular Examples of this are several snape from
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Harry Potter of what I'm talking about, Jacob Malfoy, Kyler
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Wrin and Darth Vader. And yes, they all have trauma,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: and especially in childhood, lots of trauma. And I one
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: of the things I wanted to talk about is with
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: these characters, there's almost always a female character involved, a
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: woman who redeems them, who is like the reason they
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: fell and or the reason they come back to the
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: good side at the end, are somebody who is more
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: feminine coded, which I argue Luke Skywalker is more feminine coded.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: But that's that's whole, my whole thing. But like this
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: idea that you see these these narratives around them like
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: you shouldn't. Of course they went evil because this and
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: this and this happened to them and excuses everything that
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: they did. And again, I like a good traumatic character,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: and I think the storylines behind them are good. I
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: love Darth Vader. Who's going to come in here and
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: tell me that I don't like that storyline. But he
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: did some terrible things that I don't think we should
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: be like, Okay, well, but he had this terrible pass
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: like he did, we should be understanding that he needed help,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: but we not. I mean, sure, he's a terrible past,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: but also he kind of almost tried to kill his wife,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: so that was part of his past, right, And then
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: I mean you can I think this is a bigger
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: part of the conversation which we've been skirting around. We
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: skirted around it in strategic and competence too, but we
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: did kind of talk about it in our women who
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Love serial Killers thing as well, where there's this kind
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: of idea of here's this broken man in this very
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: heteronormative sense and women feeling well, I can fix him light,
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I can be the thing. And that's the story I
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: we're talking about. Like if you look at Snape and
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Lily Potter, who he claimed to love and then sold
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: out her husband and child and then she died, Yeah,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: like that's not great, No, but it's very romanticized, and
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: like his love story with her is very romanticized. And
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: I've even heard some people say like she should have
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: been with him and then that wouldn't have happened, Like
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: that's not her, that's not on her, right, Are we sure?
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Because even if maybe would have been Snap's child, that
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: was the one. Oh Samantha that has a whole fan
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: fiction term. It's called severiti is. Of course it does,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: and of course I know I used to read that
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: on the time. I feel like there's two of them.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: There's severitis and severe. There's another one. I like the
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: one where there is not actually his child but it's
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: adopted child. There's two. There's two. Well, well, let's be clear.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: And another piece of this conversation that we're not going
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: to go too deep into, but we've talked about before,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: is this idea that being selfless and all aspects of
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: life has been used against women, um, that that's how
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: they should be at the expense of themselves. Um. And
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: I think that's part of the reaction people are having here,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: sort of the discussion around like we need to look
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: at heroes too, Like we're talking about villains right now,
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: or are people who have done villainous things? But you
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: know what aspects and the hero are we idealizing, you know, selflessness?
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: That that's different but related to how a classic traditional
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: hero behaves. And I do want to say, like again,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: we're talking more about sort of villainous things, uh, and
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: behaviors right now, and I don't want it to seem
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: like I don't. I'm not aware that we don't. We
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: shouldn't have discussions around what we frame as herorism and why. Um,
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: not that I'm saying it's bad, but you know we
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: should have those conversations too, And also that people do
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: this sort of trauma work and explaining for heroes as well.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: And I've done it before. I've done it for characters
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: that I love heroes or not. So just just to
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: make sure that you know, I'm not This is not
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: a judgment on anyone. I'm just starting a conversation, that's all.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: And it's funny because I have a lot of my friends. Um,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: if you're listening, please don't be mad at me. Love
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: love these plotlines and these characters. And again I don't.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: I don't really have a problem with that. It's more
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: of the like really romanticizing of it, um, And then
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: how we don't do that for other characters. So for example,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: like in the book deb CONTI example of Kyler Bren
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: versus Finn, who is a black character who had this
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: very traumatic past, was bring watched by stormtroopers and it's
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: like not nobody did the fan work of but what
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: about him and his drama and that explains all this.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: They did it for Kylo Rin, so that kind of
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: and that that's also a a point of like the
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: writing that went in, the character development that went into
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: certain characters and why. But just that idea is kind
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: of what it gives me pause, makes me a little
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: a little wary. And also this idea of you know,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: these female characters being both their fault and the person
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: responsible for bringing them back, for redeeming them. And a
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: part of this conversation too is how we write villains
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: and how we write heroes and the gender differences in that.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: So one of the popular examples people like to give
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: and they're talking about this is low Key from Marvel
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: versus Hella from Marvel um And as you know, I
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: love Hella. I think she's awesome. But a lot of
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: people make the point that like low Key has a
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: like he's in a bunch of movies and he's a
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: fan favorite, and he's got a TV show and we
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: did all of this stuff of like, oh he's a
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: lovable trickster. Sure he did this stuff, but oh he
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: was controlled by this or this happened, and is trauma here,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: trauma here, and he's got all of these storylines and
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: character development and arcs, and Hell is kind of like, alright,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: one and done, maybe she'll come back right right. Um.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: And this reminds me of something. There's a concept called
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: the Iceman List. I don't know if you've ever heard
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: of this, but it's this concept about It's a list
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: from the I think, primarily composed of eighties villains, and
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: the people making the list were like, well, let's think
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: about these villains. Are they really the villains? Um? So
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Iceman is the from top Gun. The example that they
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: led with was like, he was trying to be like
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: safety and let's not be you know, rash and dangerous.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: But he's the villain in this story. So I think
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: that's important thing to keep in mind too, of just
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: like the framing of how we right these stories, um,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: and just questioning that. You know, we're big proponents of
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: questioning the messaging you're getting from your entertainment. Another thing people,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: an argument people make in this conversation is that we're
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: more often as audiences and as writers and creators to
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: forgive men who are villains, are who are even flawed,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: like not even straight up villains, But we're more likely
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: to forgive them. They're more often given redemption arcs or
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: more complex characterizations and storylines as compared to women villains,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: and others have made the point like, we even do
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: this for male characters who really shouldn't be redeemed, including
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: real life male serial killers, where we're centering their story
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: and like their redemption above all the other pain that
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: they caused. And then women villains when you kind of
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: break it down on these gender differences, are often sexualized
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: and quote crazy. Sometimes they're they're frequently supporting a main
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: male villain. They frequently became a villain because of sexual
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: assaults a k a. Because of a man. Usually generalization,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: but yeah, usually um, if they have any justication at all,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: which they might, they're usually less developed, there's no real
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: character arc. They're not really well written in a way
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: that makes us as the audience want to redeem them.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: I believe that they could be or should be, or
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: their redemption story is short and or reversed. They more
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: frequently die in disgrace versus the ending of mail villains. Um,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: they don't get to have as much fun as a
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: mail villains. And yeah, again these are generalizations. There are
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: plenty of in my opinion, very excellently written women villains,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: but generally, like if you are to list right now
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: the top five most like cartic coins in your head,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: I but most of them are men Um well not
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Hell isn't the forefront of the mine. I'm not gonna lie. Oh.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: I love Hella. I love Hella um. And there are
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: intersections within all of this between queer coded villains um
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: and how people of color have been represented as villains
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: and all of this. So I just think it's interesting
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: because there are you know, villains can be really fun,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: they can be fun to watch and enjoy, but I
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: do think there's a lot of problematic stuff we need
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: to unpack and how we've been telling these stories traditionally. Yep,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you agree. I absolutely agreed. Now I'm just
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: gonna have to go watch thor Rag and Rock n Rock.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: I love it. I love in my head, I think
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: I'm a sucker for like, first of all you did,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: but yeah, everything about that character is phenomenal. And I
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: am glad because as you're right, like many of them
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: are portrayed. It's just crazy and all these things. But
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: at least you do have a moment like yeah, she's mad.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: She should be. Also, she's a goddess of death, so yeah,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: she's gonna crush you. Yeah, yeah, Now I love her.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: A lot of the articles I read about her said
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: she was one dimension. I was like, I don't think
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: she's run dimension alone. I get the point that, like
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Loki got to do more and have more fun um
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: and that he continues to have stuff that he's going
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: to get to be in. Maybe she'll show back up.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't like the one and done.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: You're right on that one. Yeah, yeah, we need more
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: good Yeah, yes, get my costume back out? Yes, all right.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Well in the meantime, cheers, cheers, yes and listeners. Oh,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: if you've got a favorite woman villain you want let
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: us know, oh gosh please. Oh and if you've got
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: a costume, oh yeah, oh yeah, we love costumes, Yes
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: we do, we do. You can email us any of
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: your thoughts are suggestions at Steph Media, mom stuff at
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: i heeart dot com. You can buy us on Twitter
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: at mom to podcast, Alrea, Instagram and stuff I've never
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: told you. Thanks, it's always you are super producer, Christina.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Christina, Yes, and thanks to you for listening.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Stuff would never told you the production of I Heart Radio.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: For more podcast on my heart Radio, visit the heart
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or red you listen to your
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: favorite shows.