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Gold Card Visas & Can AOC Be Prosecuted? · Bloomberg Law

0:02
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio.
0:08
Speaker 2: It's not a green card, but a gold card that
0:11
Speaker 2: gets you a green card, and the price is five
0:14
Speaker 2: million dollars. We're going to be selling a gold card.
0:22
Speaker 1: You have a green card, this is a gold card.
0:24
Speaker 2: We're going to be putting a price on that card
0:26
Speaker 2: of about five million dollars and that's going to give
0:28
Speaker 2: you Green card privileges.
0:30
Speaker 3: Plus it's going to be a rap to citizenship.
0:33
Speaker 2: It's a hefty price tag and replaces a current program
0:37
Speaker 2: that offers US visas to investors who spend about one
0:41
Speaker 2: million dollars on a company that employs at least ten people.
0:46
Speaker 2: The US wouldn't be the first country to offer so
0:49
Speaker 2: called golden visas. Joining me is immigration law expertly on Fresco,
0:53
Speaker 2: a partner at Holland and Knight. Leon tell us about
0:56
Speaker 2: the program that's in place now.
1:00
Speaker 1: There's a program called the EB five program that allows
1:03
Speaker 1: people to basically use their wealth to obtain lawful permanent residency.
1:08
Speaker 1: And it does it in one of two ways. Either
1:10
Speaker 1: you can invest in your own company that creates ten
1:15
Speaker 1: American jobs, and you can invest one point eight million
1:18
Speaker 1: dollars into that company, and that will allow you to
1:21
Speaker 1: get a green card, although that process takes about five
1:24
Speaker 1: years to do that. Or you can invest in what's
1:27
Speaker 1: called a regional center, which is a previously approved project.
1:31
Speaker 1: These projects get permission from the Immigration Service to actually
1:36
Speaker 1: market themselves as pre approved projects, and there are things
1:40
Speaker 1: that have been used in the past, like Hudson Yards
1:43
Speaker 1: in the West End of New York or the Comcast
1:45
Speaker 1: Center in Philadelphia. And what happens is if you invest
1:50
Speaker 1: right now used to be five hundred thousand, now it's
1:52
Speaker 1: eight hundred thousand dollars in those projects, then you get
1:56
Speaker 1: a share of the project and a share of the
1:58
Speaker 1: job creation of that which is the ten jobs again
2:02
Speaker 1: that are needed to create it, and you can obtain
2:04
Speaker 1: a green card. And so what President Trump is talking
2:07
Speaker 1: about is, although unclear, either some sort of enhancement or
2:12
Speaker 1: improvement or change to the program.
2:16
Speaker 2: We don't know much about the specifics, like how he
2:19
Speaker 2: intends to do this.
2:21
Speaker 1: So this is what's a bit unclear, and so there's
2:24
Speaker 1: a lot of permutations and possibilities here. The first is
2:29
Speaker 1: that the EB five program is always, for whatever reason,
2:32
Speaker 1: a program that expires and continues to need to be reauthorized.
2:36
Speaker 1: So one simple message that President Trump may end up
2:39
Speaker 1: delivering is, look, when this program expires again in twenty
2:43
Speaker 1: twenty seven, don't expect me to reauthorize it. I want
2:47
Speaker 1: to replace it with a new program. And the new
2:49
Speaker 1: program will be rather than having this job creating investment
2:53
Speaker 1: which doesn't actually accrue to the federal budget, I want
2:57
Speaker 1: the money to accrue to the federal budget. So I
2:59
Speaker 1: want you just to pay need five million dollars and
3:02
Speaker 1: you don't get that money back. It's not an investment,
3:05
Speaker 1: and we use it to pay down some sort of
3:08
Speaker 1: the federal deficit. So that's one option, and it's not
3:14
Speaker 1: clear if that would just be a legislative replacement, and
3:17
Speaker 1: obviously if that's attempted, that's going to be something with
3:21
Speaker 1: quite a lot of political pushback because there's a lot
3:24
Speaker 1: of people who have a lot of money in these
3:26
Speaker 1: projects now. So that's one option. The second option may
3:30
Speaker 1: be that he will decide to use the parole authority
3:34
Speaker 1: to say I have the ability to parole anyone I want.
3:37
Speaker 1: I'm going to parole people into the country who do
3:39
Speaker 1: these five million dollar investments and then allow them to
3:43
Speaker 1: get access to the EB five program. For instance, the
3:46
Speaker 1: Obama administration did this and the Biden administration did this
3:49
Speaker 1: for something that was called an International Entrepreneur parole. So
3:54
Speaker 1: they can create a new parole program that allows people
3:58
Speaker 1: to come in and who do whatever they want. So
4:02
Speaker 1: in the Bison and in the Obama administration, it was
4:05
Speaker 1: start a new company with a certain amount of venture
4:07
Speaker 1: capital investment. Those people could come in on a parole.
4:11
Speaker 1: And so President Trump can say, if you would do
4:14
Speaker 1: this five million dollar investment, I'm going to bring you
4:16
Speaker 1: in on a parole. And what he can also do
4:20
Speaker 1: conceivably is say, anybody who comes in with this parole
4:23
Speaker 1: meets the requirements of the existing ED five statutes such
4:28
Speaker 1: that they can then adjust their status to lawful permanent residence.
4:32
Speaker 1: Now that will be subject to a law suit, the
4:34
Speaker 1: huge one.
4:35
Speaker 3: But he could try that.
4:36
Speaker 1: But what he can't do is create new green cards
4:40
Speaker 1: out of whole cloth. That he cannot do. He would
4:42
Speaker 1: have to try to sneak them in under the existing category.
4:47
Speaker 2: How many wealthy individuals are there around the world will
4:51
Speaker 2: pay five million dollars to get the pathway to citizenship.
4:55
Speaker 1: Well, here's what's very interesting about this. So the five
4:58
Speaker 1: million dollar mark is very very high. I don't know
5:01
Speaker 1: how high the demand will be for that at all.
5:04
Speaker 1: The annual cap at the moment is ten thousand green
5:07
Speaker 1: cards per year, and that cap is actually met and
5:10
Speaker 1: is oversubscribed because what happens is it's only one investment
5:14
Speaker 1: that's needed, so it's one eight hundred thousand dollars investment
5:17
Speaker 1: that's needed, and then you can bring your spouse and
5:20
Speaker 1: your children, and each person counts toward the ten thousand cap,
5:23
Speaker 1: so they fill the cap quite quickly. But at five million,
5:27
Speaker 1: I actually don't think that this number is realistic from
5:31
Speaker 1: the standpoint of how many people you would get to invest.
5:33
Speaker 1: I think it would end up being a very small number.
5:37
Speaker 1: And then here's the second thing, and this is sort
5:39
Speaker 1: of a tough conversation to have on immigration, but I
5:42
Speaker 1: think a truthful one, unfortunately, is when the President says, well,
5:46
Speaker 1: companies can use this money as an award to give
5:50
Speaker 1: people green cards to are employees. That's unfortunately not the
5:55
Speaker 1: history of the use of immigration employment visas it We're
5:59
Speaker 1: being honest. Typically, the companies want the visas in order
6:04
Speaker 1: to be able to control the employee and not allow
6:08
Speaker 1: them to have free agency. Which is what happens when
6:11
Speaker 1: they get a green card. So the idea that a
6:14
Speaker 1: company will pay five million dollars to allow employees to
6:18
Speaker 1: have free agency that they can lead whenever they want
6:20
Speaker 1: and work for a different company or start their own
6:23
Speaker 1: competitor company, it's not going to be realistic with what
6:27
Speaker 1: we've seen in the immigration laws. Typically, a lot of companies,
6:30
Speaker 1: even to this day, they say, oh, we need more
6:33
Speaker 1: H to one V visas. They don't say we need
6:36
Speaker 1: more green cards, because green cards means that that helps
6:40
Speaker 1: the worker and the worker gets to go wherever they want.
6:43
Speaker 1: And what the companies want, to believe it or not,
6:46
Speaker 1: are the visas that actually tether them to the companies.
6:49
Speaker 1: And so if we're being realistic about it, I do
6:52
Speaker 1: not see this five million dollar program ending up being
6:55
Speaker 1: a high demand program.
6:57
Speaker 2: Congress extended the EB five program until twenty twenty seven.
7:02
Speaker 2: So would no wealthy foreigner prefer to invest under that
7:06
Speaker 2: program rather than pay under the new golden visa?
7:11
Speaker 1: Well, why would anyone pay five million when they can
7:13
Speaker 1: currently pay eight hundred thousand. And that's where he will
7:17
Speaker 1: have to figure out, Okay, what am I going to
7:18
Speaker 1: do to disincentivize the eight hundred thousand part of this program.
7:22
Speaker 3: Am I going to wait till.
7:23
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty seven and just when it expires not reauthorize it,
7:27
Speaker 1: meaning you will have to use my five million dollar programs?
7:31
Speaker 1: Or is he going to use the Tribal band Statute
7:34
Speaker 1: which allows him to ban any non citizens, so even
7:37
Speaker 1: the green card or whatever. He can ban anything from
7:39
Speaker 1: coming into the United States, And so he may say,
7:42
Speaker 1: if you're outside the United States and you're trying to
7:45
Speaker 1: do this application process from abroad, I'm not going to
7:48
Speaker 1: let you do it now. That ban won't work for
7:50
Speaker 1: people who are already here, but the ban would work
7:53
Speaker 1: for people waiting for abroad. I mean, there will be
7:55
Speaker 1: litigation over that.
7:56
Speaker 3: So he's either going to have to get.
8:00
Speaker 1: Congress to change it when the program expires in twenty
8:02
Speaker 1: twenty seven, or try to force Congress's hand to change
8:06
Speaker 1: it now by using the ban authority in order to
8:09
Speaker 1: do that.
8:10
Speaker 2: There are golden visa programs in other countries, and some
8:15
Speaker 2: countries have discontinued them, like Spain, because having these programs
8:21
Speaker 2: drove up home prices.
8:23
Speaker 3: Is that possibility, Well, here's the thing, So the answer
8:27
Speaker 3: to that question is yes, Ridge Foreign investors can increase.
8:31
Speaker 1: The cost of housing. But the truth is that's already
8:34
Speaker 1: happened in the United States, meaning that ship has already sailed.
8:37
Speaker 1: If you go to Miami, that's happened with a large
8:40
Speaker 1: amount of foreign investors from Latin America. And if you
8:44
Speaker 1: go on the West Coast, you've seen that with a
8:46
Speaker 1: large number of foreign investors from Asia. And so from
8:50
Speaker 1: that standpoint, that's not something that's not happening. That's already happened,
8:54
Speaker 1: and so I don't think this program would be likely
8:57
Speaker 1: to increase that any further. If you are a wealthy
9:00
Speaker 1: person from abroad, you already have many options to live
9:03
Speaker 1: in the United States. You can do the EB five visa.
9:07
Speaker 1: You can do it's called an E too investment visa,
9:10
Speaker 1: which is where you come and you start a company
9:13
Speaker 1: and you invest in the United States and a company.
9:15
Speaker 1: Now that's not a green card, but it allows you
9:17
Speaker 1: to live here in the United States. You can actually
9:20
Speaker 1: transfer yourself from a company you have abroad to a
9:23
Speaker 1: new company you're going to start here in America, or
9:26
Speaker 1: a company that's already here. There actually are a lot
9:28
Speaker 1: of options already, and so from that standpoint, any person
9:32
Speaker 1: with money who wants to live in the United States
9:35
Speaker 1: can do that already, and so I don't think this
9:38
Speaker 1: fills a market need from that standpoint. But more importantly
9:42
Speaker 1: to your question, I don't think it adds a single
9:45
Speaker 1: person who's buying a house who wasn't already buying a
9:47
Speaker 1: house in the United States.
9:49
Speaker 2: As we've discussed many times, Trump promised this historic mass
9:54
Speaker 2: deportation of millions of immigrants and we haven't seen that.
9:58
Speaker 3: Well.
9:59
Speaker 1: I think you have to look at from a global
10:01
Speaker 1: assessment of what was possible, the pipeline of people who
10:05
Speaker 1: were eligible to be deported was very low in terms
10:09
Speaker 1: of what the Biden administration had left over by the
10:12
Speaker 1: time that President Trump was inaugurated.
10:15
Speaker 3: So from picking up from that.
10:17
Speaker 1: Low pipeline, they are increasing the pipeline of people that
10:21
Speaker 1: are being placed into removal proceedings. Now. In terms of
10:24
Speaker 1: actual removals outside the United States, that's going to be
10:28
Speaker 1: difficult because the only people they can remove right now
10:32
Speaker 1: are people either with final orders of removal who already
10:36
Speaker 1: had these final orders pending, or people who are such
10:40
Speaker 1: criminals that you can get them into court quickly, and
10:43
Speaker 1: there isn't a way for them to actually be eligible
10:48
Speaker 1: to be saved so that you can remove them very quickly.
10:51
Speaker 1: So what we've seen is a significant number of sort
10:55
Speaker 1: of media related viewings of people being picked up and
10:58
Speaker 1: moved abroad. But those numbers are not at the moment
11:02
Speaker 1: appreciably bigger than anything that was in for sure the
11:06
Speaker 1: Obama administration, but even sometimes during the Bide administration. Is
11:10
Speaker 1: it a higher focus, yes, higher intensity yes, And will
11:14
Speaker 1: it eventually yield more numbers, yes, But the problem is
11:18
Speaker 1: really to yield more numbers, you're going to have to
11:21
Speaker 1: take people through the immigration court system unless some of
11:24
Speaker 1: these other changes we're talking about are allowed to happen.
11:28
Speaker 1: But trying to take them through the immigration court system
11:31
Speaker 1: becomes very, very complicated because you have millions of cases
11:35
Speaker 1: in the backlog, you have cases being scheduled right now
11:38
Speaker 1: to twenty twenty nine, twenty thirty, and as you remove
11:42
Speaker 1: some of these legal statuses that people have, their next
11:45
Speaker 1: move is going to be to apply for asylum, which
11:48
Speaker 1: is only going to add to the number of cases
11:49
Speaker 1: in that system.
11:50
Speaker 2: Coming up next, can AOC be prosecuted for hosting on
11:54
Speaker 2: Know Your Rights seminar on immigration? This is bloomberg. We
12:00
Speaker 2: haven't seen the mass deportations of millions of immigrants that
12:04
Speaker 2: President Donald Trump campaigned on. So the Trump administration is
12:08
Speaker 2: now going to try fast track deportations of hundreds of
12:12
Speaker 2: thousands of migrants. I've been talking to immigration law expertly
12:16
Speaker 2: on Fresco, a partner at Holland and Knight, Leon tell
12:19
Speaker 2: Us about expedited removal.
12:22
Speaker 1: So here's what happened. So expedited removal has a bunch
12:24
Speaker 1: of different applications in a bunch of different contexts. So
12:28
Speaker 1: what it normally is for is you show up at
12:31
Speaker 1: the border with no status of any kind, or you
12:34
Speaker 1: show up at the airport somehow you've manage to sneak
12:37
Speaker 1: on a plane with no status of any kind. And
12:40
Speaker 1: so what we can do under the Expedited Removal Statute,
12:43
Speaker 1: which was passed in nineteen ninety six, is to say
12:46
Speaker 1: we don't need to take you through a fancy immigration
12:48
Speaker 1: court process. We can literally send you back immediately unless
12:53
Speaker 1: you claim that you're eligible for asylum, in which case
12:56
Speaker 1: we have to determine if you have a credible fear
12:59
Speaker 1: and if you do that, and we have to put
13:00
Speaker 1: you in that asylum process. So then that clows it down.
13:04
Speaker 1: So here's the thing. That's how we've always applied it.
13:06
Speaker 1: But the statue theoretically allows it to be applied for
13:09
Speaker 1: people who've been here less than two years. Now what
13:12
Speaker 1: gets icy is if you do it for people who
13:15
Speaker 1: snuck across the border, you start getting into this debate
13:18
Speaker 1: about how long they were here, and that becomes messy.
13:22
Speaker 1: But it isn't the case for the people that the
13:25
Speaker 1: Biden administration paroled into the United States. So, if you
13:28
Speaker 1: may recall, the Biden administration did this think called the
13:31
Speaker 1: CCH and Z Parole, the Cuban, Haitian, Nicaragua and Venezuelan Parole,
13:36
Speaker 1: where it was letting in during the last two years
13:38
Speaker 1: of the Biden administration thirty thousand people per month from
13:42
Speaker 1: these countries under the idea that if we let people
13:45
Speaker 1: in legally, then they won't come illegally through the border,
13:48
Speaker 1: they'll just wait and come legally. Well, we know the
13:52
Speaker 1: exact date those people entered the United States, and so.
13:56
Speaker 3: The idea would be anybody who.
13:58
Speaker 1: Entered with one of those paroles will be unparoled, because
14:03
Speaker 1: parole is actually a status that can be revoked at
14:05
Speaker 1: any second and give in an expedited removal order. So
14:09
Speaker 1: that's going to be the idea that the Trump administration
14:12
Speaker 1: says it's going to pursue. So I will try to
14:14
Speaker 1: take all of these people, so the thirty thousand times twelve,
14:19
Speaker 1: which is four hundred and twenty thousand, and then maybe
14:21
Speaker 1: you know, maybe a little more than that, and revoke
14:24
Speaker 1: their paroles and try to get them out. Now, what
14:26
Speaker 1: will actually happen in practice, Well, for the Cubans, it's
14:30
Speaker 1: going to be very difficult to get them out because
14:32
Speaker 1: there's this thing called the Cuban Adjustment Act, which says
14:34
Speaker 1: once they've been here for a year, they're eligible for
14:37
Speaker 1: a green card. And so if they've been here longer
14:40
Speaker 1: than a year, you're not going to be able to
14:42
Speaker 1: solve that problem. And even if they've been here less
14:44
Speaker 1: than a year, then you're still going to have to
14:47
Speaker 1: try to figure out where you send those people to.
14:49
Speaker 1: And if nobody accepts them and Cuba doesn't accept them,
14:52
Speaker 1: and they get to stay here for a year, then
14:55
Speaker 1: once they hit that year number, they're eligible for the
14:57
Speaker 1: green card again. So that doesn't solve that problem. For
15:00
Speaker 1: the Nicaraguans and the Venezuelans, probably a large number of
15:03
Speaker 1: them will apply for asylum and so then they will
15:06
Speaker 1: be stuck in that large millions of cases backlog that's
15:10
Speaker 1: an immigration cord. And for the Haitians, even though they
15:13
Speaker 1: may not be eligible for asylum in many cases, they
15:16
Speaker 1: still probably apply. And I don't know how many you'll
15:20
Speaker 1: be able to get out in expedited removal. So really
15:22
Speaker 1: what ends up happening is, yes, you'll be able to
15:25
Speaker 1: get some number out who aren't sophisticated enough to then
15:28
Speaker 1: take this next step that I talked to you about.
15:31
Speaker 1: But for the people who are sophisticated enough to take
15:33
Speaker 1: the next step, what you really end up doing is
15:36
Speaker 1: you end up transferring them from a status where they
15:40
Speaker 1: were here on a parole now to a status where
15:42
Speaker 1: they're trying to seek asylum in the immigration cord. And
15:45
Speaker 1: now they're just adding two hundreds of thousands of more
15:49
Speaker 1: cases to millions of backlog cord. And so that puts
15:53
Speaker 1: strain on any new people you're going to try to
15:55
Speaker 1: put into the removal process.
15:57
Speaker 2: If Cubans can get a green card if they're here
16:00
Speaker 2: for a year, then that Binden program allowing a certain
16:04
Speaker 2: number of Cubans in legally basically meant that he was
16:07
Speaker 2: giving them a green card.
16:09
Speaker 1: Yes, there was this thing called the wet foot dry
16:11
Speaker 1: foot policy in the past that got taken away. But
16:14
Speaker 1: the point of that policy was as long as you
16:16
Speaker 1: were parolled or admitted into the United States under the
16:21
Speaker 1: Cuban Adjustment active, you then one year from that date
16:24
Speaker 1: that you were parolled or admitted you could actually get
16:28
Speaker 1: a green card. So because these Cubans didn't sneak in,
16:30
Speaker 1: but were actually parolled into the United States, they were
16:34
Speaker 1: allowed to then start that one year clock. So a
16:37
Speaker 1: large number of these Cubans will have reached the one
16:40
Speaker 1: year clock at some point and that will allow them
16:42
Speaker 1: to apply for a green card. And there's nothing that
16:45
Speaker 1: Trump administration would be able to do about that because.
16:48
Speaker 3: If they try to put them in deportation.
16:50
Speaker 1: Proceedings, they would obtain the green card in the deportation
16:53
Speaker 1: proceedings unless they're somehow not eligible, which only happens if
16:57
Speaker 1: you are a criminal or if you are known communists.
17:01
Speaker 2: So now the Haitians and the Venezuelans just filed a lawsuit.
17:06
Speaker 2: They're suing the choice.
17:08
Speaker 1: They'll end up just applying for asylum. Correct. They have
17:10
Speaker 1: no other choice because their temporary protective status has been removed,
17:16
Speaker 1: and litigation that's just been filed on that front trying
17:19
Speaker 1: to challenge the removal of the temporary protected status, saying, look,
17:23
Speaker 1: when under the statue you give it for eighteen months,
17:25
Speaker 1: you can't revoke it at that point. And I think
17:28
Speaker 1: that's going to be a very powerful argument. I will
17:30
Speaker 1: have to see what the courts say, but I do
17:32
Speaker 1: think it's a very powerful argument to say the eighteen
17:35
Speaker 1: months has to be honored at that point and you
17:38
Speaker 1: can't remove it. And then they make the same arguments
17:41
Speaker 1: that were made during the first Trump administration, which was,
17:44
Speaker 1: in addition, there's an equal protection violation because there was
17:47
Speaker 1: racial animates that played a role in removing the temporary
17:51
Speaker 1: protective status, and that one will have to wait and see.
17:54
Speaker 1: The Ninth Circuit agreed with that argument in the first
17:56
Speaker 1: Trump administration, so we'll have to see in the second
17:59
Speaker 1: Trump administration what the courts will say about.
18:02
Speaker 2: That work and how many years? Again is the backlog
18:06
Speaker 2: for asylum cases?
18:07
Speaker 1: Wow, I mean there's cases right now. If you get
18:10
Speaker 1: your case right now in a lot of the immigration
18:13
Speaker 1: courts in America and you're not in detention, you will
18:15
Speaker 1: have your asylum hearing in twenty thirty, twenty thirty one
18:19
Speaker 1: right now. And the big problem is, by the way,
18:20
Speaker 1: on that yeah, I mean, I mean, I have a
18:22
Speaker 1: client that just came to me the other day. They
18:25
Speaker 1: filed their asylum case in twenty ten, and now it's
18:29
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. The whole world is completely different.
18:31
Speaker 2: Now. Another thing that Trump administration is trying is requiring
18:37
Speaker 2: all immigrants to register. Tell us about that.
18:40
Speaker 1: Well, So the registration requirement is as follows. It's the
18:43
Speaker 1: law that actually was created in the nineteen forties during
18:45
Speaker 1: the World War Two, and it said we wanted people
18:49
Speaker 1: to be able to register with the federal government so
18:51
Speaker 1: that we know who was who, we were able to
18:53
Speaker 1: keep track of people. But that law has sort of
18:56
Speaker 1: faded into oblivion and hasn't been used because it's been
18:59
Speaker 1: difficult to administer there. But the idea is, if you
19:02
Speaker 1: didn't originally check in with a visa and fingerprints and
19:05
Speaker 1: everything else, meaning you unlawfully cross the border. Now the
19:09
Speaker 1: idea is you're going to have to register so that
19:11
Speaker 1: we can get some understanding of who's here legally or not.
19:16
Speaker 1: And then if you fail to register, you can actually
19:18
Speaker 1: be subject to criminal prosecution for failure to register or
19:23
Speaker 1: if you don't have your documents with you, you can
19:25
Speaker 1: be subject to criminal prosecution for failure to have your
19:28
Speaker 1: documents with you. And so the idea of behind that
19:31
Speaker 1: is twofold number one. If you can arrest people for
19:34
Speaker 1: doing that, that certainly creates a bigger sort of deterrence
19:40
Speaker 1: factor which tells people, look, you don't want to be
19:43
Speaker 1: here if you're here unlawfully, because you're subject to arrest
19:46
Speaker 1: at any time. So that adds tension. But secondly, and
19:51
Speaker 1: more importantly, what it does is it creates a rhetoric
19:56
Speaker 1: where you know, many times people are having this debate,
19:59
Speaker 1: are you here elite? Does that mean you're a criminal
20:02
Speaker 1: or not? Well, if you actually create this registration requirement
20:05
Speaker 1: and people failed to register, then you can rhetorically call
20:09
Speaker 1: people criminals and you're not in the wrong anymore because
20:13
Speaker 1: you're allowed to say every one of these people who
20:14
Speaker 1: didn't register is a criminal.
20:16
Speaker 2: Let's talk about borders. Are Tom Homan and New York
20:21
Speaker 2: Democratic Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortes. So Holman has been making
20:27
Speaker 2: veiled threats, I'd say because aoc held Unno Your Rights
20:32
Speaker 2: seminar for Immigrants is there anything wrong with her doing that.
20:37
Speaker 1: So here's the complication. You may recall we spoke a
20:40
Speaker 1: year ago about a Supreme Court case that actually dealt
20:43
Speaker 1: with this inducing statue where there was this lawyer who
20:47
Speaker 1: had this kakameni scheme to defraud people in order to
20:51
Speaker 1: get them to stay into the United States. He said, look,
20:54
Speaker 1: if you painting this money, I can file this crazy
20:56
Speaker 1: application and you can stay. And he got prosecuted under
21:00
Speaker 1: the statue which says it's illegal to induce people who
21:03
Speaker 1: are here without status to either remain or to enter
21:07
Speaker 1: the United States. And the Ninth Circuit I actually declared
21:10
Speaker 1: that statute unconstitutional as vague, and the Supreme Court was
21:14
Speaker 1: actually having arguments about this, saying, what if you just
21:16
Speaker 1: ask your grandmother, Hey, grandma, please don't leave the country.
21:20
Speaker 3: I love you.
21:21
Speaker 1: Stay. You know you're a US citizen because you were
21:24
Speaker 1: born here, but you have this undocumented grandma, and you
21:27
Speaker 1: say that, could this be a prosecution? And the DOJ
21:30
Speaker 1: at that time under the Biden administration said well, we
21:32
Speaker 1: would never prosecute anyone under this. Don't invalidate the whole
21:36
Speaker 1: statute for that. Because this case of the lawyer who
21:41
Speaker 1: has this Kakamane scheme doesn't fit what you're talking about,
21:45
Speaker 1: so we'll wait till that case later. So now this
21:49
Speaker 1: Tom Home and AOC situation, we're right back here again,
21:52
Speaker 1: which is what does it mean to induce someone without
21:56
Speaker 1: status to remain in the United States? And if you're
21:59
Speaker 1: doing and know your Rights presentation, knowing that the people
22:03
Speaker 1: are undocumented, are you still inducing them to stay in
22:08
Speaker 1: the United States with your advice? And so you would say, well,
22:11
Speaker 1: I have First Amendment rights to tell people what their
22:13
Speaker 1: rights are, and there's certainly some truth to that, but
22:17
Speaker 1: this statute, if somebody actually gets prosecuted under this statute,
22:21
Speaker 1: it's going to need some scrutiny from the courts to
22:24
Speaker 1: decide what is permitted or not because the broad language
22:28
Speaker 1: of the statue, as just the sort of Mayor was
22:30
Speaker 1: saying during the oral argument, certainly allows this, which is,
22:33
Speaker 1: you know you're a US citizen, you have to undocument
22:36
Speaker 1: the grandma, you say stay, please stay. That's enough to
22:39
Speaker 1: apparently induce someone to stay illegally knowing that they're illegal.
22:44
Speaker 1: And so if you're giving a know your Rights presentation
22:47
Speaker 1: to people who you know are undocumented, you would be
22:50
Speaker 1: doing potentially the same thing. And so that's where this
22:54
Speaker 1: gets dangerous. I'm not saying people shouldn't do this, but
22:58
Speaker 1: the statute is so broad, both with regard to inducement
23:02
Speaker 1: and also with regard to harboring, which just says any
23:05
Speaker 1: act that you take that allows a person to be
23:09
Speaker 1: evaded from detection from the immigration authorities knowing that the
23:14
Speaker 1: person is undocumented, is considered harboring. And so the question
23:18
Speaker 1: is what do you do with these two statutes because
23:21
Speaker 1: they're so broad that if they're not actually prosecuted for
23:26
Speaker 1: the people that this was meant to prosecute, meeting the
23:28
Speaker 1: people who do the safe houses, the traffickers, the smugglers,
23:32
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, and you start applying it to
23:35
Speaker 1: these broader contexts, that's where the courts are going to
23:38
Speaker 1: start getting involved in having to decide if this statute
23:41
Speaker 1: is unconstitutionally vague.
23:43
Speaker 2: So, I mean, she's speaking as an elected official, so
23:46
Speaker 2: it's also within the speech and debate clause, right.
23:50
Speaker 1: Correct, There's all of these different defenses that one can
23:53
Speaker 1: put speech in debate clause, legislative immunity. In addition to that,
23:58
Speaker 1: the statute is vague to First Amendment, so she would
24:02
Speaker 1: obviously be the hardest target to try to prosecute, as
24:06
Speaker 1: opposed to someone who is, you know, again a lawyer
24:09
Speaker 1: with a kakamane scheme that's the easiest target, or someone
24:12
Speaker 1: with a safe house or a trafficker. But in terms
24:16
Speaker 1: of the broadest language of the statute, one could say
24:20
Speaker 1: that the elements of the criminal offense of inducement are harboring,
24:24
Speaker 1: could even be violated by someone who's doing to know
24:27
Speaker 1: your Rights presentation to people that they know are undocumented
24:31
Speaker 1: and they're telling them how to toward an ICE investigation.
24:35
Speaker 1: And so this is where this gets very challenging for
24:38
Speaker 1: people in the legal community, for people outside the legal community,
24:42
Speaker 1: where it's even more challenging because at least as a lawyer,
24:45
Speaker 1: you're trying to give legal advice, But what if you're
24:47
Speaker 1: just someone who works at a nonprofit that helps immigrants.
24:50
Speaker 1: And so we'll have to see if the Trump administration
24:54
Speaker 1: tries to use this statute in a broad way moving forward.
24:58
Speaker 2: So do you think Holman is making these He's made
25:00
Speaker 2: these remarks several times. You think he's doing it just
25:03
Speaker 2: to sort of scare people into not taking any action
25:08
Speaker 2: to help immigrants.
25:09
Speaker 1: I think the problem is that ICE has very limited
25:12
Speaker 1: enforcement authorities that rely predominantly on administrative warrants, not judicial wars,
25:19
Speaker 1: because judicial wars are very time consuming and very hard
25:22
Speaker 1: to get and trying to get them in millions of
25:24
Speaker 1: cases is impossible. So they have to use administrative warrants.
25:28
Speaker 1: And the problem with administrative warrants is they're rarely enforceable,
25:32
Speaker 1: so they require volunteers to let you into their houses
25:36
Speaker 1: or to let you into their schools or wherever. And
25:40
Speaker 1: so if everybody's given to Know your Rights presentation that
25:42
Speaker 1: says there's an administrative warrant, don't honor it, then that
25:47
Speaker 1: does forward ninety percent of what ICE is trying to accomplish.
25:50
Speaker 1: And so this is what gets frustrating to someone in
25:53
Speaker 1: Tom Holman's position.
25:54
Speaker 2: So many interesting lawsuits on the horizon. Thanks so much,
25:58
Speaker 2: leon Asa. That's Leon Fresco of Honda Night. Coming up
26:04
Speaker 2: next on The Bloomberg Law Show. The Netflix show Running
26:07
Speaker 2: Point had to go through some legal hoops before it
26:10
Speaker 2: started streaming. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg.
26:18
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio.
26:24
Speaker 2: Work in a family business, The greatest basketball franchise in
26:28
Speaker 2: the history of the game, The Los Angeles Waves, the
26:31
Speaker 2: new Netflix show Running Point, had to go through some
26:35
Speaker 2: legal hoops before it started streaming. Pepper Down University sued
26:39
Speaker 2: to stop the show from airing over trademark infringement claims,
26:43
Speaker 2: alleging that the fictional Los Angeles Waves professional basketball team
26:48
Speaker 2: in the show uses the university's orange and blue colors
26:52
Speaker 2: as well as its school's nickname, but a judge denied
26:55
Speaker 2: the motion for a temporary restraining order, saying the university's
26:59
Speaker 2: request fell short. Joining me is intellectual property attorney Jonathan Hyman,
27:04
Speaker 2: a partner Bob Martin's, tell us what Pepperdine was complaining about.
27:09
Speaker 4: Yeah, the case is a pretty interesting one. So it
27:12
Speaker 4: revolves around Netflix's new show called Running Point, in which
27:17
Speaker 4: there's a fictional team name called the Los Angeles Waves
27:20
Speaker 4: that's the professional team. The show is actually based loosely
27:23
Speaker 4: on one of the producers, Genie Buss's life and her
27:26
Speaker 4: experience in running to La Lakers, and Pepperdine's main complaint
27:31
Speaker 4: is that the team name is Waves and that Pepperdine's
27:35
Speaker 4: thoughts are that everyone would associate the team name Waves
27:39
Speaker 4: with Pepperdine and that anyone seeing the show would think
27:42
Speaker 4: it's about Pepperdine, and the show is an adult show
27:46
Speaker 4: and it has some content that Pepperdine didn't want to
27:48
Speaker 4: be associated with. They kept referencing it as being a
27:51
Speaker 4: raunchy comedy that's ante ethical to its two Pepperdine Christian values,
27:56
Speaker 4: and even in oral argument in the case, Pepperdine had
27:59
Speaker 4: raised that it has an anti drug policy and anti
28:03
Speaker 4: alcohol policy and they just didn't want to be associated
28:05
Speaker 4: with that show. And those are real concerns for brands.
28:08
Speaker 4: You know, brands want to be able to control how
28:11
Speaker 4: people perceive their brand and not be associated with anything
28:14
Speaker 4: that's on savory. But the issue is whether anyone would
28:18
Speaker 4: really associate the Waves with Peppernine. And before you could
28:22
Speaker 4: even get to that issue, the courts in these types
28:26
Speaker 4: of issues of using a trademark and expressive work will
28:30
Speaker 4: apply to Rogers tests and that's kind of where the
28:32
Speaker 4: decision and Pepperdine's arguments kind of got sidetracked.
28:36
Speaker 2: It's more than just the name, right, it's also the
28:39
Speaker 2: orange and blue collars and other things.
28:42
Speaker 4: Correct. Yes, the case Pepperdine complain was not just about
28:45
Speaker 4: the name the team named the Waves. They were also
28:47
Speaker 4: complaining about the use of the orange and blue uniforms,
28:51
Speaker 4: the fact that the logos looked similar, that the mascot
28:56
Speaker 4: for Pepperdine is a blue Wave or humanized version of
28:59
Speaker 4: a blue Wave. And the other issue was that in
29:01
Speaker 4: some of the backgrounds of the scenes, there are jerseys
29:05
Speaker 4: in the fictional NBA team's offices, and one of the
29:09
Speaker 4: jersey numbers was number thirty seven, and that's the jersey
29:13
Speaker 4: that the mascot for Pepperdine wears. So Pepperdine has obviously
29:17
Speaker 4: a heightened sensitivity to what is being shown in the show,
29:21
Speaker 4: and it seems to be Pepperdine's argument is very nefarious
29:24
Speaker 4: and was intentionally done to trade and associate with Pepperdine.
29:29
Speaker 4: But Netflix had testimony from its executives and Warner Brothers
29:32
Speaker 4: executives that any similarity was unintentional and that the team
29:38
Speaker 4: colors orange and blue were chosen because orange is the
29:41
Speaker 4: color of basketball and blue is the color of Waves,
29:44
Speaker 4: and the team name The Waves was associated with They
29:48
Speaker 4: wanted something to associate the fictional NBA team with Los Angeles,
29:53
Speaker 4: and they were right by the ocean and so it
29:56
Speaker 4: was natural for what Warner Brothers argued was as natural
30:00
Speaker 4: of choose the team name Waves.
30:02
Speaker 2: In a trademark infringement case, does it matter what the
30:06
Speaker 2: intention of Netflix was. Suppose it was accidental.
30:11
Speaker 4: Right under the Rogers test, it has to have some
30:13
Speaker 4: artistic relevance to There's two factors in the Rogers test,
30:17
Speaker 4: and the first factor is that it has to have
30:19
Speaker 4: some artistic relevance to the work, And the second factor
30:22
Speaker 4: is that the use is not explicitly misleading as the
30:24
Speaker 4: source or the content of the work. And normally in
30:28
Speaker 4: some of these cases you're dealing with taking the brand
30:31
Speaker 4: itself and putting it in or using as a reference
30:35
Speaker 4: in the movie itself to the plane of s brand. Here,
30:38
Speaker 4: the mark that issue was a fictional team name within
30:41
Speaker 4: the show. But Netflix and Warner Brothers argue that that's
30:44
Speaker 4: artistically relevant to the show because they were trying to
30:48
Speaker 4: make it a NBA team based in Los Angeles that
30:51
Speaker 4: had to associate with Team names are always usually associated
30:55
Speaker 4: with the locations where they're located, and so like the
30:59
Speaker 4: Miami Heat for example. And so the argument again is
31:04
Speaker 4: that from Pepperdize perspective, is that it called to mind
31:09
Speaker 4: their teammate. But under the Rogers test, if it has
31:12
Speaker 4: artistic relevance, well then you get to the whether it's
31:15
Speaker 4: explicitly misleading. And basically what Netflix is arguing was that
31:19
Speaker 4: it's an arbitrary use of waste and I'm mixing trademark metaphors.
31:23
Speaker 4: But it had nothing to do with Pepperdine. And even
31:26
Speaker 4: if it did have something to do with Pepperdine, if
31:28
Speaker 4: the show was about Pepperdine, well then there'd be no
31:30
Speaker 4: issue either. So the first gateway for Netflix was to
31:34
Speaker 4: put this case into Rogers And even if the court
31:37
Speaker 4: decided that Rogers didn't apply, then you would then go
31:42
Speaker 4: into the likely confusion factors, which is under the Ninth
31:45
Speaker 4: Circuit flee Craft factors, and that would even be tough
31:49
Speaker 4: for Pepperdine to show that it prevails under that construct.
31:54
Speaker 2: This was for a tro a temporary restraining order, So
31:58
Speaker 2: did the judge consider both factors of the Rogers test.
32:02
Speaker 4: The judge found that that Pepperdine was unlikely to succeed
32:05
Speaker 4: on the merits of its claim under the Rogers test.
32:08
Speaker 4: The judge found that the waves mark had artistic relevance
32:11
Speaker 4: to the work and it was not explicitly misleading as well.
32:14
Speaker 4: The court denied the TRO because of this kind of
32:18
Speaker 4: use squarely fits within the Rogers test.
32:21
Speaker 2: So this was for a TRO. The standard is high
32:24
Speaker 2: for a TRO, and Pepperdine says they're going to continue
32:29
Speaker 2: the lawsuit. What are their chances going forward?
32:33
Speaker 4: Standard for a TRO. It's an extraordinary remedy, especially in
32:37
Speaker 4: this context where the suit was filed days and then
32:41
Speaker 4: the judge's decision was within hours of when the show
32:43
Speaker 4: was supposed to air. And the problem for Pepperdine is
32:46
Speaker 4: that the standard for preliminary injunction is the same as
32:49
Speaker 4: the TRO in the Ninth Circuit, and even the judge
32:52
Speaker 4: noted that, and she ended her order saying Pepperdine may
32:54
Speaker 4: file It's a regularly noticed motion for preliminary junction if
32:58
Speaker 4: it has evidence to do so. And so I think
33:00
Speaker 4: Judgment of Venezuela was tipping her hand and saying Pepperdine
33:03
Speaker 4: needs to come in with something more than what it
33:06
Speaker 4: had to TRO, some kind of evidence. But that still
33:09
Speaker 4: is also problematic for Pepperdine because the Rogers test would
33:12
Speaker 4: still apply. And so even if you get to an
33:14
Speaker 4: evidentiary standpoint where Pepperdine is coming in with maybe a survey.
33:19
Speaker 4: It still has to show that the Rogers test doesn't apply,
33:23
Speaker 4: and then would need to show that under the LIKELHO
33:26
Speaker 4: too confusion factors that it can prevail on the trade
33:29
Speaker 4: more infringement plane, and there could be some discovery and
33:32
Speaker 4: maybe this case would change. It seems unlikely, but maybe
33:36
Speaker 4: there would be some discovery and there could be documents
33:38
Speaker 4: from Netflix that show an intention to trade on Pepperdine.
33:41
Speaker 4: I'm saying it seems unlikely because of the testimony so
33:43
Speaker 4: far was that Waves was almost an arbitrary use and
33:47
Speaker 4: it was selected because of what the association with Los
33:50
Speaker 4: Angeles as opposed to the association with Pepperdine.
33:53
Speaker 2: If they don't get the preliminary injunction, what about suing
33:56
Speaker 2: Netflix for damages.
33:58
Speaker 4: Right, and that would be that would then still have
34:01
Speaker 4: to They would still have to get through the Rogers
34:04
Speaker 4: deaths and show that this wasn't an expressive work or
34:08
Speaker 4: that they explicitly misled viewers to thinking there was a
34:12
Speaker 4: connection there and or association. And if they it still
34:17
Speaker 4: seems that this case won't get out of what we'll
34:20
Speaker 4: say Rogers lands that they're still squarely within Rogers. But
34:24
Speaker 4: then even if they can survive that and get to
34:26
Speaker 4: a likely confusion analysis, I think they've still got problems
34:29
Speaker 4: with their case. One of the issues is while Pepperdine
34:33
Speaker 4: has federal registrations and they're given a presumption that they're
34:36
Speaker 4: valid and protectable, the question is how strong is the
34:40
Speaker 4: Pepperdine wave mark and whether consumers really associate wave would
34:45
Speaker 4: just Pepperdine. There are a number of Netflix and Warner Bros.
34:48
Speaker 4: That show, there's a number of teams in California, and
34:51
Speaker 4: there's also teams nationwide like Tulane Green Waves that use
34:55
Speaker 4: waves and any third party use or other school A
35:00
Speaker 4: team names they use waves couldn't limit the ability for
35:04
Speaker 4: Pepperdine to succeed on a likely confusion analysis.
35:08
Speaker 2: Thanks for being on the show. That's Jonathan Hymen of
35:12
Speaker 2: Knob Martin's and that's it for this edition of The
35:15
Speaker 2: Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the latest
35:18
Speaker 2: legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find
35:21
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35:25
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35:29
Speaker 2: into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at ten pm
35:32
Speaker 2: Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to
35:36
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