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Transcript

1-800-1845 · 1-800-1800

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Ring, ring.
• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hello.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, is this 1845?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: This is she.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hi.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, I have some really bad news for you.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm dead?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're dead.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hello?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: You've reached 1-800-1800.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: 1-800-1800.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I have a burning question.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: 1-800-1800.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I have a burning question.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm dead and every year that we've ever discussed is dead.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: This is 1-800-1800.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Mabel Taylor.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: And my name is Madeline Porcella.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was so close this time saying my name is Madeline Porcella.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: You've done that before.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: I am you and you are me.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because together we're Mandy Lyon Press.
• 0:51
  Yes,
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  and Mandy Lyon specializes in 19th century novels published by
• 0:55
  women and weirdos.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: We republish them.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: We bring them to you.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: You can buy them.
• 1:01
  they're gorgeous they are gorgeous they are our babies and we
• 1:04
  love them all right
• 1:07
  okay so nobody wants to hear about other people's kids you know
• 1:10
  yeah totally um on
• 1:11
  this podcast we call up a different year of the 19th century
• 1:15
  every episode in the
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: 19th century is something we like to call between 1776 ish and 1919 yeah
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Past episodes have covered such luminaries as 1805, 1897, 1886.
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  SPEAKER_01: Only the hits.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have so many more to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: There were some lesser years as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: I would say our least favorite was 1814.
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  SPEAKER_01: That was a rough year for human history.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: For human history.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Madeline, I want to ask you something.
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  SPEAKER_01: What did you learn this week?
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: The heat is on.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Please tell me you learned one thing.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: I learned something this week.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: I learned something every day.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this week.
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  SPEAKER_02: So as you know,
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  I've been reading a lot of Charles Dickens because I've been
• 2:07
  taking a course that's
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  SPEAKER_02: about Charles Dickens and George Eliot.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
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  SPEAKER_02: And this week I was reading our mutual friend,
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  which was Dickens final novel and is my favorite personally of
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  the ones that I've
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  SPEAKER_02: now read.
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  SPEAKER_02: Um,
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  SPEAKER_02: I haven't still read Oliver Twist.
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  SPEAKER_02: What about Great Expectations?
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  SPEAKER_02: No.
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  SPEAKER_02: That one's good.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, Our Mutual Friend is about these dust mounds.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't really get why they care about dust mounds in the 19th century.
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  SPEAKER_02: Extremely valuable.
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  SPEAKER_02: Why?
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  SPEAKER_02: Because coal dust.
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  SPEAKER_02: Gold dust.
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  what like someone was sweeping up after a minor and was like
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  this is valuable
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  basically yeah it's like rag pickers people would find like cat
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  skins and sell them
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  cat skins that's like a cat a tabby cat sometimes there would
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  be like jewelry or
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  SPEAKER_02: money that somebody lost in the dust mound
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  i thought you were gonna say like inside the cat like how there
• 3:04
  are only so many
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  ways to skin a cat to get your diamonds once someone asked me
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  if it was offensive
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  to use that phrase there's only so many ways to skin a cat and
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  i was like offensive
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  to who the cat community ladies crazy cat ladies everywhere are
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  offended they're
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  SPEAKER_02: probably skinning cats um
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  SPEAKER_02: So dust heaps.
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  SPEAKER_02: Dust heaps.
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  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
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  So the whole book revolves around these dust heaps and who's
• 3:27
  the rightful inheritor
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  SPEAKER_02: of these dust heaps.
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  But there is an epilogue that makes no sense when you're me
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  reading it for the
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  SPEAKER_02: first time without context.
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  SPEAKER_02: I can so imagine you.
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  SPEAKER_02: Just imagine me finishing the book, reading the epilogue and going, huh?
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  And in the epilogue,
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  Charles Dickens writes about saving the two sort of main...
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, no, it's a multi-plotted novel.
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  SPEAKER_02: There's many main characters,
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  SPEAKER_02: but two of those many main characters are the Boffins,
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  SPEAKER_02: Mr.
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  SPEAKER_02: and Mrs.
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  SPEAKER_02: Boffin.
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  And in this epilogue,
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  Charles Dickens talks about saving them from a train wreck.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, what?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's no train wreck in the book.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I Googled it up.
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  SPEAKER_02: And... You Googled that up.
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  SPEAKER_02: We're cooking.
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  SPEAKER_02: We're cooking.
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  SPEAKER_02: And Charles Dickens himself was in a train disaster.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's called the Steeplehurst train disaster.
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  Halfway through writing the book and he's talking in the
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  epilogue about basically
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  how he references the scene he was writing when the train
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  disaster happened and how
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  he went back and saved the manuscript and so talks about the
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  exact moment in the
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  SPEAKER_02: plot
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  SPEAKER_02: At which the boffins were at risk of being lost in this train disaster,
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  SPEAKER_02: even though in the plot itself,
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  SPEAKER_02: you wouldn't know.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: But in a way,
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  it makes you reread the book with this like idea of the rupture
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  of the train
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  SPEAKER_02: accident in mind.
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  SPEAKER_02: And this event really shook Dickens up.
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  But he didn't talk about it much because he was on the way to
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  see his mistress when
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: it happened.
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  SPEAKER_02: So he didn't want people to ask too many questions.
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  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
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  SPEAKER_02: I've been there.
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  SPEAKER_02: Who hasn't taken the train to see a forbidden friend?
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: See an old man about a fruit.
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  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Ask me a question.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Ask you a question.
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  SPEAKER_02: You'll tell me no lies.
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  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: Did you learn something this week?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, Madeline, I did.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I already told you this multiple times,
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  SPEAKER_01: in fact,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it's so good I had to share it with everyone.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: So John Soane is an English architect, was an English architect.
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  SPEAKER_01: He was actually the son of a bricklayer.
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  SPEAKER_01: Did you know that?
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  SPEAKER_01: I did not.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's so interesting.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a real rag to riches story.
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  SPEAKER_01: Brick to buildings.
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  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I guess if you know the material, you know the material.
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  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he knew it.
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  And he came to rule the field of English architecture with his
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  neoclassical buildings,
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  SPEAKER_01: including Bank of England,
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  SPEAKER_01: he made really cool.
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  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't exist as it did.
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  SPEAKER_01: He made really cool.
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  SPEAKER_02: Where is the Bank of England?
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_01: In London?
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  SPEAKER_01: Presumably.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  And so it was destroyed,
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  I think,
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  over the course of maybe a fire or something.
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  SPEAKER_01: Over the course of a fire, the building was destroyed.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  and i found this painting that i'd like to show you that i
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  can't show you right now
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  that is of someone in the 1830s imagining what it would have
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  looked like in the
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  future as like an ancient greek ruin wait had it already burned
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  down at that point
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  yeah it was like i think it was disintegrating in his lifetime
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  maybe so it was like
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  a ruin he'd already experienced as a ruin haunting who designed
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  the world trade
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  SPEAKER_01: center by the way i have no idea it's not som is it
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_01: I gotta look that up.
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  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_02: It was built in like the fifties or sixties.
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  SPEAKER_01: It seems like it would have been.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's too late.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's gone.
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  SPEAKER_01: We'll never know.
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  SPEAKER_01: We can't look.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: So the bank of England is gone,
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  SPEAKER_01: but what does remain is John Soane's house,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is now a museum in London.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we've been there together and it's just fabulous.
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  SPEAKER_01: I simply adore it.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's so cool.
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  It's like three townhouses swished together and opened up
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  inside and made into this
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  SPEAKER_01: like cavernous display of all these architectural fragments and
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Also,
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  the thing that I find so inspiring is the way that everything
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  is labeled and these
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  SPEAKER_02: beautiful hand-painted signs,
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  SPEAKER_02: including all the picture frames.
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  SPEAKER_03: Picture frames.
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  SPEAKER_02: Picture frames.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's really beautiful.
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  SPEAKER_02: There's like a million busts.
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  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know what else is so cool?
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  SPEAKER_02: There's that room where like,
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  SPEAKER_02: because he owned so many paintings,
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  SPEAKER_02: he couldn't show them all at once.
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  So there's that room where he can like flip the walls to show
• 7:39
  different paintings.
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  And if you go at the right time,
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  you can see them sort of like changing the display.
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  SPEAKER_02: Rotating.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is really awesome.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just full of fun moments like that.
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  SPEAKER_01: He has a cool sarcophagus in the bottom.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's really fun.
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  SPEAKER_01: But what I didn't know,
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  which is crazy because I love it so much when people ask me
• 7:57
  what my favorite museum is,
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: I typically say the Sir John Stonehouse.
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  But I didn't realize that what makes it even better is that he
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  founded the museum
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  SPEAKER_01: as a way to spite his horrible son,
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  SPEAKER_01: George.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you know what I love.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: The only thing we love more than museums is revenge.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that one place could bring my two loves together.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's just so lucky.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So he had two sons.
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  SPEAKER_01: One was named after himself, John, and the other was named George.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they were both just absolute terrors.
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  SPEAKER_01: The father wanted them both to be architects.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Neither of them was interested.
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  You know that my like fantasy in life is to talk about my
• 8:33
  horrible adult sons.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're on your way, babe.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:37
  um i'm not pregnant like i'm pregnant i just mean like the more
• 8:42
  you accomplish the
• 8:42
  more that your future son can tear it down the more likely it
• 8:46
  is that they'll be
• 8:46
  awful yeah um i actually like that taylor swift song where she
• 8:51
  imagines her own
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: funeral where her adult children are squabbling over her estate
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  heard she says her daughter-in-law yeah she specifically calls
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  out that poor woman
• 9:02
  who was probably not born yet yeah um okay unless taylor swift
• 9:05
  has a son this year
• 9:07
  and marries someone older than him who was born a few years ago
• 9:10
  anyway anyway
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  SPEAKER_01: So George Soane is really the troublemaker.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: John Soane Jr.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: was also kind of a bad kid.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: And what George did was he married a woman against his parents' wishes.
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  And then he wrote his mom a letter and said,
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  I have married Agnes to spite you and father.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then George tried to extort his dad.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then he was in prison for debt.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then in 1815,
• 9:36
  an article was published anonymously titled the present low
• 9:40
  state of the arts in
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: England and more particularly of architecture.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And John Stone was particularly attacked in the letter.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in the article.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And guess who wrote it?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: George himself.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: George wrote it just to attack his own dad,
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  and the betrayal was so profound that it actually contributed
• 10:01
  to the death of
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Johnstone's wife,
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: George's mother.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: It is like people don't die from a shocking letter anymore.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to write a letter so shocking it killed someone.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: It just speaks to the impact of media in the 19th century.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like that good books and evil letters could kill people.
• 10:22
  Yeah,
• 10:22
  like you could be so moved by a piece of text that you could
• 10:25
  drop dead.
• 10:26
  But I also think that everyone was sort of teetering on the
• 10:29
  precipice of death at all times.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: So like any letter, any book kind of pushed you over the edge.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what do you think it is that rooted us more firmly in life?
• 10:40
  like i feel like the cord has gotten stronger what cord the
• 10:45
  mortal coil is the soul
• 10:47
  to the body um i said my answer vaccination okay okay so also
• 10:55
  then johnson later
• 10:57
  learned that his son was living in a menage a trois with agnes
• 11:01
  and her sister and
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: he was like abusing both women like abusing with his fist
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Fisticuffs.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Domestic abuse.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so this all led John Soane to disinherit his son.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it sounds.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that the parents are responsible for this?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's kind of nature versus nurture, ain't it?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Ain't it?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I just think it's a common tale.
• 11:25
  Like if John Soane was a son of a bricklayer and he against all
• 11:29
  odds overcomes his
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: humble upbringing and comes to build beautiful buildings,
• 11:34
  it only makes sense that his sons born into privilege would
• 11:37
  squander the whole thing.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that he would resent them for being born into privilege.
• 11:41
  I was watching Mad Men recently and there was a line that one
• 11:44
  of the there's like a
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: character whose son is starting the stupid sport and they're what?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, a lie.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I know about that.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:52
  And anyway,
• 11:53
  so they like talk to the father to be like,
• 11:55
  your son's doing this thing.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: He's throwing all his money away.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: And the dad goes,
• 11:58
  the thing you have to remember when you strike gold is that
• 12:01
  your kids weren't there
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: when you were swinging the pick.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: OK, so 1845.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to hear about it?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 12:09
  Okay,
• 12:09
  so you might be wondering who was president,
• 12:12
  who was born,
• 12:13
  who died.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Who died.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing is, I don't really care today.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: James K. Polk was the president.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've already talked to him.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it's a nice, like...
• 12:25
  Well,
• 12:25
  I don't know where 1845 is in the grand scheme of all the
• 12:28
  things we've talked about.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's nice to root us, I think.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
• 12:31
  And it has been an ambition of mine that this podcast teach me
• 12:34
  the order of the presidents.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: But so far, it's just kind of confusing.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: We don't go in order.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:40
  um born nobody that i care about it's it is like a fascinating
• 12:46
  phenomenon that
• 12:46
  we've been tracking like which years have cool births and which
• 12:50
  do not yeah yeah
• 12:51
  some years are all about the deaths some years are all about
• 12:54
  the births and
• 12:54
  sometimes no one i care about was either born nor died yeah
• 12:58
  what do you think that
• 12:59
  is um i i mean you know my theory what the um baby boom theory
• 13:06
  the great war baby
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: boom yeah
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: I just think that in moments of political violence,
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: people turn to sex,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: and that yields babies who contribute to society.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: So is this a pro-war stance?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying, if you want to make culture interesting, wage war.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm a baby of the Gulf War, as are you, I believe.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say I'm a baby of the Gulf War.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: That implies that our dads fought in the Gulf.
• 13:36
  you don't know my dad my dad certainly was not there where yeah
• 13:43
  he was busy i don't
• 13:44
  hear class too high school um my dad was like starting a career
• 13:51
  he couldn't go to
• 13:52
  the gulf he couldn't possibly go to the gulf he had to be a
• 13:55
  psychiatrist yeah um
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 14:00
  but one person did die that I think I'm only bringing up
• 14:04
  because it's kind of a
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: nice intro into my topics that I'm going to discuss today.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: So Johnny Appleseed.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: So real name, John Chapman.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: He was born in 1774.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: 1774.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes something happens in the 18th century.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: It shocks me to my very core.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to talk a lot about the 18th century today.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Johnny,
• 14:26
  I feel like I'm surprised that's not his real name because
• 14:29
  we've run into so many
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: appropriate names.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Johnny Appleseed.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like Applebaum is a last name.
• 14:37
  People do really live up to their names is something I've taken
• 14:39
  away from this podcast.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, carry on.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 14:46
  so Johnny Appleseed was an American pioneer who brought apples
• 14:50
  to Pennsylvania,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Ohio,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Indiana,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Illinois,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: and Ontario.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really know he was a real person.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I thought he was myth.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Famous grafter.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Madeline, it's funny you should say that.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because actually,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Johnny Appleseed,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: seed being the operative word,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: people do live up to their names.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: He did not graft trees.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: He planted them with seeds, which is a terrible idea.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Say more.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:14
  I didn't know this before reading about Johnny Appleseed and
• 15:17
  his untimely death.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I weirdly know a lot about Johnny Appleseed.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's because you're from the East Coast, maybe.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I do love apples.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: So Johnny Appleseed,
• 15:30
  planted trees from seeds this is really hard for me to talk
• 15:34
  about um according to
• 15:35
  henry david thoreau an apple grown from a seed tastes quote
• 15:40
  sour enough to set a
• 15:41
  squirrel's teeth on edge and make a j scream that's j i think
• 15:47
  that's like a mocking
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: j probably okay
• 15:50
  um so that is to say the apples are so bitter and sour that
• 15:54
  even if a bird was
• 15:55
  pecking at it it would be like oh sour do you know what a funny
• 15:58
  thing is is that
• 15:59
  there's an apple tree at my mom's house and i once asked her if
• 16:01
  the apples were
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: good and she looked at me and she went how the fuck should i know
• 16:11
  we used to kind of iconic my dad also has apple trees and our
• 16:14
  old dog lucy used to
• 16:16
  go and literally pluck the low-hanging fruit and bring it back
• 16:21
  to her bed and eat
• 16:22
  them like that's adorable it was pretty adorable she would
• 16:24
  harvest her own snacks
• 16:26
  cute but it is just funny to like actually be eating the
• 16:29
  low-hanging fruit
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, someone's got you.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody's got it.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:33
  So the thing about grafted versus seeded apple trees is that
• 16:38
  grafted apples are
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: more delicious,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: but seeded apples can be made into cider.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And cider was an incredibly important drink in the 19th century.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't grafted apples be cider?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think they can, but they're like more delicious.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a waste.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: honestly,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: maybe hard cider,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: you want that kind of tart taste because maybe as it's fermented,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: it gets sweeter.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: But Michael Pollan,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: author of The Omnivore's Dilemma,
• 17:07
  he's written really what Johnny Appleseed was doing and the
• 17:10
  reason he was welcome
• 17:11
  in every cabin in Ohio and Indiana was he was bringing the gift
• 17:14
  of alcohol to the frontier.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: He was our American Dionysus.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a fan of that.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Of that theory.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: That project.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Of bringing alcohol to the frontier.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: I hate alcohol.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm going to talk about alcohol a lot.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I learned that actually,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: because I mean,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: we know that in the 19th century,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: people weren't really like drinking water.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't really drinking coffee if they weren't rich.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: People were drinking alcohol.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was cleaner than water in many cases.
• 17:41
  And I think cider was really big in the new world because it
• 17:45
  was like cheaper.
• 17:46
  they weren't like planting wheat just yet successfully as they
• 17:49
  were in old germany
• 17:51
  in old germany i mean yeah i just i guess were people drunk all
• 17:57
  the time no why
• 17:59
  i'll speak about this okay but let me first change the subject
• 18:04
  okay um well i think
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: basically you didn't have to drink to excess like i
• 18:12
  Because if you're drinking all of the time,
• 18:14
  I actually think you probably learn moderation.
• 18:18
  I guess,
• 18:20
  but maybe the question of what drunk is,
• 18:24
  is like people were inebriated all the time.
• 18:29
  i mean a little buzzed i keep talking about this book the best
• 18:34
  of everything that
• 18:34
  i'm reading from 1958 and they call it's about like young girls
• 18:39
  in publishing and
• 18:40
  they talk about drinking and they're like they instead of
• 18:43
  saying drunk they're like
• 18:43
  he was so high on bourbon yeah i used to say that i love that
• 18:48
  idea we should say
• 18:48
  that why did people stop saying hi about alcohol do you think
• 18:52
  probably as they
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: started taking other drugs more
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Loving other drugs.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, Madeline, I'm going to talk to you about two things today.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Two.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the first one is the Portland vase.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Are you wondering what is that?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: I know what it is, but I'm wondering, what is that?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: It is a vase.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's all I have to say about it.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's big.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually not that big.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, the size of this, I think.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's big for a vase.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like for a big bouquet.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe some apple branches.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a Roman vase.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, cherry blossoms or something, too, would look good in it.
• 19:36
  um spring has sprung okay so it's a roman cameo glass vase and
• 19:43
  it is a beautiful
• 19:44
  shade of violet blue and it is surrounded with white cameo
• 19:50
  designs okay and it's
• 19:53
  dated alternately between 1 and 25 a.d and 15 and 25 bc two
• 19:56
  different potential
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: datings okay
• 20:03
  And the different datings have to do with different theories
• 20:07
  about what its
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: mysterious inscriptions mean.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Say more.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's decorated.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And people know when we talk about Cameo what we're talking about, right?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's in relief on the surface of the vase.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can feel it, but you shouldn't because it's in a museum.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's in a museum.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Presumably in a case.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, not to, I won't bury the lead.
• 20:35
  Basically in 1845,
• 20:35
  it was shattered in a dramatic incident at the British Museum.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: But, but it still exists.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: It still exists.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I won't tell you, but I'll tell you it was put back together.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like Humpty Dumpty.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like Humpty Dumpty.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it was made probably by this guy.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: At least it was probably carved by this guy, Descorides.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was a famous Roman gem cutter.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know his work.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's fabulous.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Some of my favorite gems were cut by Destinides.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: That is definitely the name I said.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it was probably made using the blowing technique.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the two colors,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: the blue and the white were blown together,
• 21:14
  like the blue to form the body and then the white to create
• 21:17
  this band along the
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: outside that was then carved.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: You with me?
• 21:21
  yes okay and there's two scenes represented on it and those
• 21:25
  scenes are separated by
• 21:26
  this big floating man head bearded with sort of big horns okay
• 21:32
  like the devil like
• 21:33
  the devil but nobody really knows who he is because the devil
• 21:36
  didn't exist yet
• 21:37
  because jesus was born the year the base i was basically just
• 21:41
  watching you bite
• 21:42
  your lip when i said 1 ad i could not say it do you want to
• 21:46
  talk about that a
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: little bit no it's okay okay
• 21:49
  yeah it's as old as jesus um so on one scene there's like a man
• 21:55
  reaching towards a
• 21:56
  woman she has a snake in her lap there's like a floating cupid
• 21:59
  like figure over her
• 22:01
  head there's another man kind of head in his arm thinking and
• 22:06
  looking and then in
• 22:07
  the other scene is like three naked people sort of lounging it
• 22:10
  in the first one too
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, there are more clothes in the second scene.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: People are naked the whole time.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's like three penises on it.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe four.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: I can't see if the Cupid baby has a penis.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: But it's really stunningly beautiful.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing is, is that nobody really knows what the scenes mean.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 22:29
  what's interesting to think about is like people are so mad
• 22:32
  that now it's only
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: naked women in movies.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's no like full frontal male nudity.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: But for much of human history was only male nudes.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: You would never show a vagina on a vase.
• 22:42
  My coworker and I recently were discussing which department at
• 22:45
  the museum has the most penis.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say Greek and Roman for sure.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: So many penises.
• 22:51
  And then I think boobs wise,
• 22:53
  like maybe I was going to say European painting.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of those paintings.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: But we should probably do a tally.
• 23:00
  I actually think I've read about horrible date night tours that
• 23:04
  you can take.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Where you count the dicks?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Where they're like, this penis is this big in this painting.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Would you do that on a date?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe if you've been seeing someone for a while.
• 23:16
  You would have to be very confident that their dick was bigger
• 23:19
  than the small dick
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: that is joked about on the tour.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: I know, yeah.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really good point.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, God.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: That would be humiliating.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: So the thing is,
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: is that people don't know whether the scenes represented on the vase are
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: mythological or historical.
• 23:35
  Like a mythological interpretation is that this represents
• 23:38
  something I don't know about,
• 23:39
  which is when Dionysus greets Ariadne with her sacred serpent
• 23:47
  and Silinus,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: her foster father,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: looks on.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have any idea about that either, no.
• 23:51
  a historical interpretation would be that one of the men
• 23:55
  represented on the vessel
• 23:56
  is mark anthony being lured by the wiles of the reclining woman
• 24:00
  cleopatra with a
• 24:01
  snake in her lap you know she was a she she was killed by a
• 24:05
  snake yeah she got bit
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: by a snake did she have bit or was it an accident
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: I won't try to answer because I have no idea.
• 24:16
  So because now I'm thinking about it and it's like if you were
• 24:19
  to dress up as
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: Cleopatra for Halloween,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: you would put like a snake on your arm.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Why is she associated with that?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: She did die of a snake bite.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: An asp.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: An asp.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Not to be confused with ass.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Asp bite.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if that was her pet snake.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Or what.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, this vase was made.
• 24:49
  Some people also argue that it was a wedding present for the
• 24:52
  Emperor Augustus's daughter,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Julia,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: when she married Marcus Claudius Marcellus in 25 BC.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Wedding of the first 10 years.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, the negative 10 years.
• 25:04
  years no 25 bc oh this is the alternate dating oh i see okay um
• 25:10
  and i think there's
• 25:12
  a lot more i could probably say but i don't know about it okay
• 25:16
  so jumping a couple
• 25:17
  hundred years into the future the vase was first referenced by
• 25:22
  paresque in 1601
• 25:24
  when he was writing the letter to rubens from italy being like
• 25:26
  guess what i found i
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: found a beautiful face yeah
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And Paresk is cool.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: when I was working as Peter Miller's research assistant,
• 25:35
  I read a lot of Paresk's letters through Peter's notes that
• 25:38
  were like one sentence.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it would be like, wrote to Rubens, ate flamingo today.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like he saw eight flamingos or he, he ate flamingo.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: He was eating flamingo.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's a shame to take such pretty, pretty feathers off of a bird.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't talk about how it tasted.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: I bet it tasted like chicken.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: So the vase was first written about in 1601,
• 26:05
  but presumably people have been hanging out with it between the
• 26:07
  year one and 1601.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And looking at it, cherishing it.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think it was in the ground or never?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I don't actually know if it was excavated.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
• 26:22
  I don't know how it was like so pretty that people for 1500
• 26:25
  years kept it in their house.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: That is why it's important to get investment pieces.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that someone can cherish it for a thousand years.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So in 1626, the vase was purchased in by the Barberini family.
• 26:42
  So for a long time,
• 26:42
  it was actually known as the Barberini base,
• 26:44
  not the Portland based.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Dare I ask who the Barberini family is?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're sort of like the Medicis.
• 26:51
  It's like another big Italian family with a lot of power and a
• 26:56
  big collection.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: as often happens with such families,
• 27:01
  they fell on hard times and they ended up selling the vase to a
• 27:06
  Scotsman named
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: James Byrne.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: who then sold it to someone named Sir William Hamilton,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: who was the British ambassador to Naples,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: who then brought the vase to England.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it has never left since that I'm aware of.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Things go to England, they never come back.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like the Elgin marbles.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: May they be freed.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: So Hamilton sold the vase to a woman who I found very fascinating.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Who I feel you must know about.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Her name is, you don't even know.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Her name is, I don't know about this vase lady.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Her name is Margaret Cavendish Bentnik.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm not familiar with her.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: She was the Duchess of Portland and she was born in 1715.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Where's Portland?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: Or is the Duchess of Portland a place or a family name?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is something I don't understand about royalty, actually.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we can address this quickly.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: Aristocracy?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: in England,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: if you're,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: the Duchess of Kent,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: is Kent the place or is Kent a family seat?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's both.
• 28:12
  okay like you can be made the lord of x without being from
• 28:16
  there like the king
• 28:19
  could make someone the duchess of kent if he wants to but it
• 28:24
  you know what i mean
• 28:24
  but then like does isn't there like a name well i think there's
• 28:29
  a there is a place
• 28:30
  element of it like no place yeah okay i mean maybe there are
• 28:35
  some very like the
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: earl of sandwich where's sandwich
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: The sandwich is in my belly.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've had several sandwiches today.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 28:48
  But I assume that the Portland and England is what the Portland
• 28:50
  and Maine was named after,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: which then the Portland and Oregon was named after.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so basically the base then enters into the Portland family.
• 28:59
  And it was part of this massive collection that this woman,
• 29:03
  Margaret Cavendish,
• 29:04
  had.
• 29:05
  And she had one of the largest natural history and art
• 29:09
  collections in the 18th century.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: She had her own personal curator.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Which is a huge accomplishment.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: That was a big time for those kinds of collections.
• 29:16
  Literally,
• 29:17
  I think the only thing to do if you are really rich was to collect.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And she was doing it at a very big scale.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And she owned all of these different things, all of these specimens.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And her ambition was,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: according to her curator,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: John Lightfoot,
• 29:31
  to have had every unknown species in the three kingdoms of
• 29:35
  nature described and
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: published to the world.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just miss the days when you could be like, I want one of everything.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Do you?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just think that's sort of world-consuming ambition.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: But it's related to a specific mindset of ownership and accumulation.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, it's problematic.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: But look at all those little bugs.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: You would want one of each bug.
• 30:05
  um i'm thinking about it no i hate bugs i had a moth
• 30:12
  infestation ew disgusting good
• 30:15
  point yeah but i would love like a beautiful glass cabinet with
• 30:18
  like little
• 30:19
  individual drawers for each bugs and people actually referred
• 30:24
  to her her big huge
• 30:26
  house as the quote hive because she had so many entomologists
• 30:30
  working for her at
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: any given time it's
• 30:31
  cute she's the queen bee she was the queen bee unfortunately
• 30:35
  her children did not
• 30:36
  inherit appreciation for her collection what is these thankless
• 30:39
  kids i know it's a
• 30:40
  tragedy it really is but i think it's kind of you know if
• 30:45
  people kept collecting
• 30:46
  just because their parents collected something can you imagine
• 30:48
  how big these
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: collections would be
• 30:50
  well they would be what museums are which is that's how museums
• 30:54
  started because
• 30:56
  rich people collect stuff and they can't possibly keep it all
• 30:58
  in their own house
• 30:59
  but museums can't possibly keep all those people's stuff i know
• 31:03
  they try and
• 31:04
  they're failing every day it's like the most anal retentive
• 31:08
  institution what about
• 31:10
  the library the library gets rid of things much more frequently
• 31:14
  than museums do
• 31:16
  that is a good point thank you i worked at a library in high
• 31:21
  school and i used to
• 31:23
  have to be in charge of throwing books into the dumpster out
• 31:26
  back and they were
• 31:28
  like you can keep stuff if you want and then i would like try
• 31:31
  to look through the
• 31:31
  dumpster books to see if there's anything i would want and
• 31:33
  there was nothing i'd
• 31:34
  want and that would be probably like future mandy lion books no
• 31:37
  it was more like
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: smut
• 31:39
  really yeah i also used to spend a lot of the time while
• 31:42
  volunteering at the
• 31:42
  library um reading erotica does smut expire i think it grows
• 31:49
  goes out of style yeah
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: like more so than other genres
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 31:53
  I assume that like the romanticcy genre that we're currently
• 31:56
  seeing blowing up on
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: the internet is like going to age.
• 31:59
  We're currently seeing,
• 32:00
  but I've never encountered one of those books in my life.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's like all people talk about.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like we should be publishing romanticcy.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've been trying.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: And yet.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And yet.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: But the good thing, back to the Lady of Duchess Portland.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: So her kids did sell off all of her stuff,
• 32:18
  but then they actually bought back the Portland vase because
• 32:20
  they realized how
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: valuable it was.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it really is precious.
• 32:26
  So then was there like an empty mansion with only the Portland
• 32:29
  vase inside?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: And like white cloths over the windows.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: I love St.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Elmo's fire.
• 32:38
  I just love like when they're opening up the house for the
• 32:40
  season and they pull the
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: white sheets off of the furniture.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: We got to be doing that.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: I just need a country house.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's my summer home.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then I need a winter home.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: Mandy line means a, what is it called?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: A pile of rocks, brick, brick pile.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: What do they call it?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 32:59
  there's a like term for country houses that's like it's an old
• 33:04
  family pile oh okay
• 33:06
  so the son of margaret cavendish bought back the vase but then
• 33:13
  i guess he decided
• 33:13
  he couldn't take care of it himself so he lent it to the
• 33:17
  british museum because it
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: was like requiring too much like
• 33:20
  feet or what he was always having to change the flowers out no
• 33:24
  he gave it to the
• 33:26
  british museum to take care of for him and then also at some
• 33:28
  point lent it to
• 33:29
  josiah wedgewood which makes perfect sense because it looks
• 33:33
  like a wedgewood vase
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: yeah why do you say that
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: Tell the listeners.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because Wedgwood was famous for inventing Jasperware,
• 33:46
  which was essentially a blue clay body that he would then cast
• 33:51
  in relief white scenes,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: like neoclassical scenes,
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: and lay them over the vase.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was an unglazed blue vase with white people on it.
• 34:02
  yeah it didn't have to be blue too he tried other oh yeah you
• 34:05
  can make any color i
• 34:07
  think it's called sprigged that when you put the figures like
• 34:10
  the white relief that
• 34:11
  makes sense i think it's sprig because he also innovated
• 34:14
  transferware because
• 34:16
  basically josiah wedgwood's thing but transferware is flat
• 34:18
  right it's flat yeah but
• 34:20
  like basically he was this big inventor of different ceramic
• 34:24
  techniques as well as
• 34:25
  an amazing entrepreneur and like one of his big marketing ideas
• 34:27
  was having changing
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: fashions um
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so by doing transferware decoration, it like sped up the process.
• 34:34
  So instead of having someone hand painting a vessel to look a
• 34:36
  certain way,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: he could basically just like print onto the surface of the ceramic,
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: a design.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that could change every season.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it's interesting because like,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: even to this day,
• 34:45
  Wedgwood is famous for being this industrialist and like
• 34:47
  beginning mass production of...
• 34:50
  ceramics but even today the jasperware for example like that
• 34:53
  has to be done by hand
• 34:54
  so the way they advertise themselves is not like as a big
• 34:59
  company but as a kind of
• 35:00
  like handmade craft business if you watch like wetwood produced
• 35:05
  videos it's like
• 35:06
  one person in a room like perfectly laying the design over the
• 35:11
  jasperware but i
• 35:12
  guess compared to like previous ceramic methods it was so much
• 35:16
  more efficient yeah
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: he's used molds a lot too
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 35:19
  I just feel like what he what he innovated is this idea of like
• 35:23
  a way to mass
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: produce luxury.
• 35:26
  yes and he also but he was like serving two different audiences
• 35:30
  like he is famous
• 35:32
  for having made these like really elaborate and spectacular
• 35:34
  sets of ceramics for
• 35:37
  the aristocracy and and royalty like for Catherine the Great he
• 35:41
  made a 950 piece
• 35:43
  service called the frog service and each one of the 950 pieces
• 35:47
  has a little frog on
• 35:48
  it okay and and like he but he used that as like a marketing
• 35:53
  technique for his more
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: accessible
• 35:55
  wears throw a frog on it throw a frog on it put a bird on it
• 36:00
  yeah back to portland
• 36:01
  yeah and but he was also a genius and invented all these
• 36:06
  different marketing things
• 36:07
  that we still use today like did you know he came up with bogo
• 36:10
  buy one get one
• 36:11
  that's incredible yeah wow he also did direct mailers so he
• 36:16
  would send people
• 36:16
  catalogs and he like had really elaborate illustrated catalogs
• 36:20
  yeah and um he also
• 36:22
  offered money back guarantees free delivery as well as
• 36:27
  self-service i don't know
• 36:28
  what that means i wrote that down what is self-service like you
• 36:31
  could send in a
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: mailer and say i want this one
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 36:37
  Um,
• 36:39
  I don't really know either,
• 36:40
  but he didn't use porcelain and that's important.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Just because like he was,
• 36:48
  all of the ceramic goods were kind of inspired by porcelain
• 36:52
  vessels that were being
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: exported from the East.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, except for the Portland face.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, except those.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Which is inspired by the ancient world.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 37:03
  And he also had other vessels that were inspired by different
• 37:07
  things coming out of,
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: ancient Rome and ancient Greece.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: He did a lot of, like, Scafido-style things.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: He also had,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: he would name...
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: also,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: one of his factories was called Eritrea,
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: which is...
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I'm saying it right.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: But it's, like, an ancient place.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 37:27
  But he also...
• 37:28
  Maybe you and I should,
• 37:29
  like,
• 37:30
  brush up on our Greek and Roman pronunciation.
• 37:33
  history um he had where is he called etruscan which were black
• 37:39
  um and he also had
• 37:41
  ones called rosso antico which were like antique red italian um
• 37:48
  and he also was
• 37:49
  using clay to imitate like agate and granite and things like
• 37:53
  that's cool yeah
• 37:55
  um but he was really just a staffordshire potter like the rest
• 37:59
  of us like the rest
• 38:00
  of us all to the air just a regular old guy you know he's
• 38:04
  someone else whose son
• 38:05
  was fucked up i think it's a common tale yeah i think his son
• 38:09
  killed himself oh man
• 38:11
  he was definitely extremely depressed and institutionalized i
• 38:14
  think he was the
• 38:15
  great grandfather of darwin or grandfather of darwin charles
• 38:20
  darwin no like cousin
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: or something
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is it direct?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or it's like uncle.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's uncle.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: He was his grandfather.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: His mom, Susanna Darwin, was the son of Josiah.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: What are you talking about?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: His mom, Susanna Darwin, was the daughter of Josiah Wedgwood.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: A handsome man.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Josiah Wedgwood was also an impassioned abolitionist,
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: but also was like,
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: didn't he kind of self-profit off of his...
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: the famous Wedgwood,
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: am I not a man and a brother medallion?
• 39:03
  I actually have made a note about wanting to do an episode
• 39:06
  about that in the future.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I won't speak of it just yet.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: But Josiah...
• 39:11
  is one of a class of sort of like late 18th century,
• 39:15
  early 19th century design pioneers.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, can I say something about the slave medallion quickly?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 39:21
  There is like a weird thing with the slave medallion where Ben
• 39:27
  Franklin had one and
• 39:29
  it was in the collection of the Philadelphia Museum and then
• 39:34
  they lost it because
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: people thought it was such like kitsch trash.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then it showed up,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: maybe in the Mets collection or some other collection,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: years later.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Speaking of museums losing stuff.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: It happens all the time.
• 39:49
  So Josiah Wedgwood is kind of,
• 39:51
  like,
• 39:51
  a face,
• 39:52
  you could say,
• 39:53
  of the,
• 39:53
  like,
• 39:53
  industrial revolution.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 39:55
  he's part of a class of people who are figuring out how to use
• 39:58
  modern manufacturing
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: techniques to produce things that have been treasured for hundreds,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: if not thousands of years.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: And make them accessible to, like...
• 40:06
  shopkeepers yeah like and yeah it's as much about the product
• 40:10
  as how you sell it
• 40:11
  yeah um but he doubt is the product oh man that's how they used
• 40:16
  to sell cigarettes
• 40:18
  how that's like i think what is that thank you for smoking or
• 40:22
  something they say
• 40:23
  doubt is the product because you have to convince people that
• 40:25
  the product is not
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: the cigarette it's that they won't die if they start smoking oh my god
• 40:31
  spoiler alert you will um i don't know so while i was i mean
• 40:37
  you will die i don't
• 40:38
  know smoking is bad for you okay not endorsed by this podcast
• 40:43
  um while i was
• 40:44
  reading about wedgwood i was reading about one of his
• 40:46
  contemporaries thomas
• 40:48
  chippendale who was a furniture designer as well as an
• 40:52
  entrepreneur who also had
• 40:52
  catalogs who also had catalogs yeah and he was also someone who
• 40:56
  could kind of like
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: play to whatever the contemporary taste was like
• 40:59
  I feel like in a cartoon when they talk about fancy furniture,
• 41:02
  it's Chippendale.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: When are they talking about furniture in cartoons?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: Cartoons can be very sophisticated.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of cartoons I'm watching, I guess.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: No, like it's just kind of like, it's like Kleenex.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the brand name.
• 41:16
  Like what Chippendale did that Wedgwood also did is made
• 41:19
  himself like the brand
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: name of fancy chairs.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Kleenex to Chippendales is tissue.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: To chair.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: Old chair.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Chippendales is also the name of the male strip review.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Which I only know about from SNL.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Which I only know about from The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because last season, the ladies go Sutton, my favorite character.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: So she's a person.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: She wore pants.
• 41:47
  She wore pants with the intention of getting rubbed up on by a
• 41:51
  male dancer and then
• 41:52
  is not selected to go on stage and throws like one of the
• 41:55
  funniest fits of all time.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's tasteless.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: She says it's tasteless.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: She's on the board of the American Ballet Theater.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: She can't be seen getting a lap dance.
• 42:05
  it's like these are dancers these are working dancers and as
• 42:08
  she said it's
• 42:08
  disrespectful to the craft of dance to make them pretend to
• 42:13
  like eat erica jane out
• 42:16
  that was vulgar it was really crap so do you think chippendales
• 42:20
  is more famous now
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: for furniture or for strippers
• 42:25
  well okay so i've also been to a review like sutton went to but
• 42:29
  it was magic mike
• 42:30
  live so i feel like magic mike live has eclipsed chippendales
• 42:34
  as like the male
• 42:36
  strip review and what did you think of magic mike live i got a
• 42:41
  lap dance on stage
• 42:42
  in front of all these ladies it was humiliating were they all
• 42:44
  so jealous of you
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they all had worn pants.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you were wearing a tiny little skirt.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: So Chippendale, not the stripper, not the chair, but the man, Thomas.
• 42:59
  I would love to talk to an 11-year-old and see what they think
• 43:01
  Chippendale is,
• 43:02
  if anything.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think 11-year-olds know about that.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: But that's what I'm saying I did.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because of cartoons.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: These quote cartoons you were watching.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Basically,
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: people like Chippendale,
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: people like Wedgwood,
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: they're increasingly interested in using...
• 43:21
  the ancient world as a source of inspiration for their products
• 43:25
  and you see that
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: with something like the portland vase but you also see this popping up in
• 43:30
  architecture like with sir john stone people who had gone on
• 43:33
  these grand tours of
• 43:34
  europe gone to ancient sites like pompeii or like gone to
• 43:39
  athens or whatever and
• 43:40
  had been like i gotta sell this to people or like i'm literally
• 43:44
  gonna take a rock
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: and put it in the british museum in the case of lord elgin
• 43:48
  yeah it's funny how actually mass producing fake versions of it
• 43:52
  is actually like
• 43:53
  maybe more ethical than stealing it from the cultures from
• 43:56
  which you can't really
• 43:57
  do one without the other because how would wedge with the poor
• 44:00
  staffordshire potter
• 44:01
  have seen the portland vase had it not been brought to london
• 44:07
  and put in the
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: british museum yeah
• 44:09
  thank you to the portland family yeah um i was reading about
• 44:13
  someone whose name was
• 44:15
  james stewart whose nickname was the athenian and he on his
• 44:19
  grand tour or on some
• 44:20
  trip he took to europe he went and measured ancient greek
• 44:25
  buildings and i was just
• 44:28
  thinking that's the kind of thing we should be doing when we go
• 44:30
  on vacation yeah we
• 44:31
  could start you know what's crazy about that he didn't have a
• 44:34
  retractable measuring
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: tape
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: How is he doing that?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: With like a ribbon?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful silk ribbon.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: Or running around the temple.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe with his feet.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: Doing a floor program.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you know how big your feet are, you can measure pretty much anything.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: That is true.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or your wingspan.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: They also were just like going and,
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: writing their impressions,
• 45:02
  drawing and sketching these places and sending back these
• 45:07
  things that were brewing
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: this sort of neoclassical culture.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: that took decades really to kind of get out of their system.
• 45:14
  And it affected everything from the visual arts and
• 45:17
  architecture to fashion.
• 45:19
  Like I was thinking about women's dress and like sort of
• 45:24
  Athenian toga style gowns.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: Neoclassical.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Those were baby clothes also.
• 45:30
  tell me more those dresses were like not only were they
• 45:35
  neoclassical and that they
• 45:36
  were meant to evoke the toga this these are like the corset
• 45:38
  list like bridgerton
• 45:40
  dresses but also that's how babies always dressed and so the
• 45:43
  women were becoming
• 45:44
  babies and then their like little bottoms were hanging out yeah
• 45:49
  like wait what
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: where were their little bottoms
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, the wet dresses.
• 45:55
  Actually,
• 45:55
  it was kind of like a thing where British people hate French people.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so after the French Revolution,
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: when the neoclassical dress became very popular,
• 46:04
  the British people thought it was vulgar and they would draw
• 46:08
  these cartoons,
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: these like fashion cartoons of French women.
• 46:11
  And they created this myth that there was a trend that French
• 46:16
  women were taking
• 46:16
  these white dresses that had this empire waist and they weren't
• 46:18
  wearing anything underneath.
• 46:20
  And they were dumping water on themselves to make the dresses see-through.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: basically and so there are all these illustrations of like like just wet
• 46:31
  see-through white dresses yeah i just pulled up this amazing
• 46:34
  cartoon from 1808
• 46:36
  which is um a woman kind of like when i think when people
• 46:39
  imagine the 19th century
• 46:41
  they imagine like a buttoned up corseted woman and there's an
• 46:43
  older woman wearing a
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: sort of very stiff dress like that
• 46:47
  staring at this and horrified by this woman wearing a bombazine
• 46:51
  dressed which in
• 46:52
  the cartoon is um sort of like transliterated into bum b scene
• 46:57
  and you can see this
• 46:58
  woman's bum from through her like toga like chemise dress but
• 47:02
  this is like this is
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: an english cartoon
• 47:07
  yeah making fun of those french those french and after the
• 47:11
  french revolution when
• 47:12
  you know people had all this hope um or during like women were
• 47:16
  also cutting their
• 47:17
  hair because it made it look like they were in the bastille
• 47:20
  which was like oh i'm
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: from a aristocratic family it's very chic it's very chic
• 47:26
  But they were also trying to look like Greek and Roman heroes too,
• 47:29
  weren't they?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: The haircut was 100% about being looking like they had been in prison.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought they were also trying to look...
• 47:36
  And they would wear red ribbons around their neck to reference
• 47:38
  the guillotine.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's very chic.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: We should start doing that.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Wait,
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: one more Wedgwood thing is that his ambition was to become,
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: quote,
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: the vasemaker general of the universe.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: Which is a title I wish there existed.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of Elon Muskian.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's kind of doge.
• 47:58
  yeah um and instead of like trying to just cut government
• 48:04
  spending what wedgwood
• 48:05
  did was he spent five years and 5 000 experiments to try to
• 48:10
  recreate the portland
• 48:12
  base or basically to invent jasperware which we were talking
• 48:16
  about um and he did
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: eventually succeed okay yeah famously
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we can see the evidence.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: So he is the vase maker general of the universe.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really think anyone has like outvased him.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: Man has not been outvased.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: But in 1790, he accomplished his recreation of the Portland vase.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you can still see like on the Wedgwood website,
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: some of his attempts,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: some of those 5,000 trials.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like really crazy looking.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm showing Madeline some photos of them.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: They have boils.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's like one that's covered in warts.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's disgusting.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then another one where like the cameo decoration has fallen off.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's just a beautiful accomplishment.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: And Wedgwood referred to the Portland base as his great work.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: And he actually staged this exhibition of it and sold,
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: he had to sell tickets because it got so crowded.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, um, people were just dying to see his beautiful Portland base.
• 49:16
  okay can i ask something yeah so we because all this stuff
• 49:19
  we've been talking about
• 49:20
  took place in the 18th century uh-huh why is it related to 1845
• 49:24
  i think i said that
• 49:26
  it was mysteriously destroyed and it was in 1845 an hour later
• 49:28
  i explained why i'm
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: talking about this
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: So at 3 45 PM on February 7th,
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: 1845,
• 49:40
  the year that this episode is centered on a man named William
• 49:44
  Lloyd is walking
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: through the British museum.
• 49:46
  He picks up a inscribed stone and he throws it at the case that
• 49:53
  the Portland vase is sitting in.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: He was a man possessed, a man possessed by alcohol.
• 49:58
  really yeah he was drunk off his head he actually quote was
• 50:02
  coming down from a not
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: quote i'm not quoting i'm just saying he was coming down from a week of
• 50:08
  intemperance okay like he was drinking hard for a week and then
• 50:12
  i guess he decided
• 50:13
  to end his awesome seven days of drinking by going to the
• 50:17
  british museum and
• 50:18
  destroying a precious ancient face okay it shattered into i
• 50:22
  think i have the exact
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: number of pieces it's more than like four they should not have counted
• 50:29
  it shattered into i guess i kind of imagined that it shattered
• 50:33
  into a certain
• 50:34
  number of pieces i saw something that said 37 yeah so there's
• 50:37
  37 shards they
• 50:38
  couldn't fit back into the piece when they re re put it
• 50:42
  together what do you like
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: it shattered multiplied i think it grew okay well so my question is
• 50:48
  about this whole ordeal is so William Lloyd is drunk drunkard
• 50:55
  he's in touch with a
• 50:57
  sort of ancient deity of Dionysus who may or may not be
• 51:00
  pictured on the very base
• 51:01
  himself he's walking through the galleries of the British
• 51:05
  Museum in this sort of
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Dionysian frenzy and he
• 51:11
  is called to pick up a stone and inscribed stone a speaking
• 51:15
  stone if you will and
• 51:17
  chuck it at an artifact that has existed for over a thousand
• 51:22
  years yeah what do you
• 51:25
  think that he that the rock was in some way possessed or there
• 51:29
  was some sort of
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: mystical element to this crime i think yes um
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think there is.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the whole thing is shrouded in mystery.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: this is kind of not related,
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: but I think it is,
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: which just because there's something about the aura of the vase,
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: the aura of the inscribed stone.
• 51:48
  So the guy who put it back together was this employee of the
• 51:51
  British Museum named
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: John Doubleday,
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: who was known also for making copies.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: And like a lot of museums... Doubleday.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: See, I'm telling you, the name thing is real.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: He would make like all these extremely accurate copies of ancient coins,
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: ancient seals,
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: things like that.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: And like that was an official duty of his museum job duty.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, Madeline.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: But also created all these...
• 52:20
  Forgeries at the same time which have like cluttered
• 52:22
  collections like John
• 52:23
  Doubleday made 10,000 copies of seals And so like what's real
• 52:28
  and what's not real
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: is all like really ambiguous.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay And so I think yes
• 52:35
  like between the fact that you nobody knows what's inscribed on
• 52:38
  the vessel nobody
• 52:40
  knows whether it's kind of is it real or not if it was put back
• 52:43
  together if john
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: doubleday's legacy is so cluttered situation it's very confusing yeah
• 52:50
  um and also i would just say like the british museum at this
• 52:54
  point is haunted is i
• 52:56
  mean it's definitely haunted today and but i think its whole
• 52:58
  history is haunted
• 53:00
  what i can't really understand like also william lloyd is kind
• 53:03
  of mysterious the
• 53:03
  drunkard who threw the stone because nobody even knows that
• 53:07
  that's his real name
• 53:08
  and there was all these weird things so he was convicted on the
• 53:11
  basis of this law
• 53:12
  about like property damage but then his lawyers were like
• 53:16
  actually you can't
• 53:17
  convict him on the basis of that law because that law only
• 53:20
  applies to things things
• 53:21
  worth five pounds or less and the portland base was obviously
• 53:26
  worth more than five
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: pounds even in 1845 how do you
• 53:29
  price something like that that object seems to me to really
• 53:34
  embody the term
• 53:34
  priceless well maybe they knew how much the portland family had
• 53:39
  bought it back for
• 53:40
  but yeah it's a good question but so they ended up convicting
• 53:43
  him actually on the
• 53:44
  basis of having destroyed the glass case that the object was
• 53:47
  displayed in okay
• 53:48
  which was worth three pounds okay um so then william lloyd goes
• 53:52
  to jail which is
• 53:53
  like a hard labor prison camp and then someone anonymously pays
• 53:57
  his bail and he's
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: freed
• 53:59
  so there's like all of this like was he set up to do it like
• 54:03
  it's it's like how um
• 54:08
  willie lincoln was that who was at all of the assassinations
• 54:11
  wasn't there one of
• 54:11
  the lincoln sons who was president all the presidential
• 54:14
  assassinations that have
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: ever happened oh like at jfk's
• 54:19
  yeah now that you say it i don't know maybe but also like the
• 54:28
  british museum is
• 54:29
  transforming from this kind of like aristocratic private club
• 54:33
  slowly into a more
• 54:35
  public institution that we know it today and it made the gods
• 54:38
  angry it made the
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: gods angry
• 54:40
  But also they were doing all this weird stuff like this process
• 54:42
  of kind of like
• 54:43
  standardizing and professionalizing and becoming a public
• 54:46
  museum changed it.
• 54:48
  So there's I was reading that there's all this crazy stuff that
• 54:51
  was happening in
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: the early 19th century.
• 54:54
  Like they decided at some point that they had been for
• 54:58
  centuries sort of just like
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: accepting donations of like weird medical anatomical donations.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you making that face?
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: Why won't you say it?
• 55:08
  um because i think it's like gross animal matter but basically
• 55:12
  at one point they
• 55:13
  were like we have to get rid of like cat first yeah like cat
• 55:16
  skin um but of course
• 55:18
  because it's like the early 19th century no one's like well
• 55:20
  maybe we should donate
• 55:21
  this collection to a smaller museum instead they just started
• 55:25
  burning quote
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: zoological rubbish in the backyard of the museum and
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: And some,
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: quote,
• 55:32
  some persons in the neighborhood complained and threatened with
• 55:34
  an action because
• 55:35
  they thought the moths were introduced into their houses by the
• 55:38
  cremations in the
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: museum gardens.
• 55:40
  And the attraction of the garden terraces and fragrant
• 55:43
  shrubberies of Montague
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: House was somewhat lessened when a,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: quote,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: pungent odor of burning snakes was their accompaniment.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm sorry, this entire thing like reeks of witchcraft.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: I know, it just gets worse, huh?
• 55:59
  It's really,
• 55:59
  like,
• 56:00
  even a moth,
• 56:00
  I feel like a moth is like the devil's play thing.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: The devil's bug.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you and I have a personal vendetta.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: They like come out at night.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and they can't be destroyed.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: They eat dust.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: They eat dust.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: They eat human skin.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: You literally can't get rid of them.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's haunting.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: But a more historical interpretation would be also like the thing.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember this amazing essay written by Casper Meyer,
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: a former professor of ours,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: which is about like how in the 19th century,
• 56:29
  the sort of reception of ancient Greek faces literally
• 56:32
  transformed because when
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: museums were more private for just like rich educated men,
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: you were allowed to touch the art.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and that was always forever.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: How you understood these vessels was by handling them.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: And also they...
• 56:45
  are three-dimensional and have multiple sides and like yeah and
• 56:50
  before the museum
• 56:51
  started putting objects like that into a case where you could
• 56:53
  only see maybe one
• 56:54
  maybe two or three sides not all of them um you could like see
• 56:59
  everything and touch
• 57:00
  everything yeah but then the museum starts limiting the ways
• 57:04
  that people are able
• 57:04
  to interact with them and also like censoring them because
• 57:07
  they're often really
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: horny
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: it's also like to the point of witchcraft,
• 57:13
  it's like these objects that are being put in these glass cases
• 57:16
  and kind of like
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: sterilized in this way are things that have these rich histories.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of them were like considered magic.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that doesn't go away just because you put them in a glass box.
• 57:27
  nobody puts baby in a corner nobody puts baby in a corner um
• 57:32
  and yeah i'm also
• 57:33
  thinking about when we went to the british museum and how it's
• 57:35
  still basically like
• 57:36
  run like an institution like a mental institution of course we
• 57:42
  went in the middle
• 57:43
  of a heat wave and every single door to the entire museum which
• 57:46
  has like the riches
• 57:48
  of the world amassed into it was propped open with like rocks
• 57:52
  because it was
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: So hot inside.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: And they had like little desk fans plugged in.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_02: Blowing.
• 57:57
  And they were taking things off display because they were quite
• 57:59
  literally melting.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it also makes me think, you know what else happened in 1845?
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't really told you anything.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know anything.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_02: A guy threw a rock.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: One man threw one rock.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: And Johnny Appleseed died.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I know about 1845 so far.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's all you need to know, honey.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: In 1845, the Lunacy Act was established.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not familiar with that.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a British law which created this,
• 58:30
  like transformed the status of mentally ill people from
• 58:33
  basically like prisoners to patients.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because in 1808,
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: they had created this law saying we need to have more asylums,
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: like having alternatives from prisons,
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: basically,
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: or work camps.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:44
  um and i bring this up mostly because you know what your
• 58:47
  favorite word was used in
• 58:48
  the wikipedia page for the lunacy act of 1845 what word jail
• 58:53
  otherwise known as
• 58:54
  gaol gaol g-a-o-l arch nemesis of a word um so basically the
• 59:00
  lunacy act was trying
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: to get people out of the gaol and into asylums speaking of moths uh-huh
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: Lunacy.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: Moon.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: You want me to look up the etymology of lunacy?
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: Mid-16th century,
• 59:16
  originally referring to insanity of an intermittent kind
• 59:18
  attributed to changes of
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: the moon.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's about women.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's about getting your period.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a lunatic right now.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so...
• 59:29
  that is the way that i want to talk about the portland face
• 59:33
  which is as a mystical
• 59:35
  unsolved mystery of lunacy and crime wow okay what's his name
• 59:39
  william lloyd william
• 59:41
  lloyd so what happened to him after he was blessed out of the
• 59:43
  work camp he
• 59:44
  disappeared into thin air yeah i mean it's very the secret
• 59:48
  history this is like
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: yeah the part of my best-selling fantasy novel is coming
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: while I was researching this mystery,
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: I discovered this really interesting,
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: cartoon,
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: which I'd never heard of,
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: which was published by punch the magazine.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 1:00:05
  And it's by HM Bateman and it's called the boy who breathed on
• 1:00:08
  the glass in the British museum.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's from 1916 and basically it's wordless,
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: but over the course of the,
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_01: like it's worthless word,
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: there's no words in it.
• 1:00:22
  it's a cartoon yeah wow we keep going back to cartoons i'm
• 1:00:25
  telling you basically at
• 1:00:27
  the beginning of the story there's this little boy and he is
• 1:00:32
  leaning in on a case
• 1:00:33
  filled with egyptian mummies in the british museum and he
• 1:00:36
  accidentally breathes on
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: the glass and
• 1:00:38
  at which point a security guard arrests him and puts him into
• 1:00:41
  jail inside of the museum.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: And he's eventually released as an old,
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: old man at the end of the cartoon,
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: at which point he immediately goes back to the mummy case,
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: breathes on it,
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: and then drops dead.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:00:57
  thing to think about there's like so much there huh the boy who
• 1:01:01
  breathes on the
• 1:01:02
  glass well i was gonna say before you brought this fascinating
• 1:01:06
  artifact to my
• 1:01:07
  attention i don't know i didn't know about there's so much
• 1:01:10
  fiction set in the
• 1:01:11
  british museum like what name them name them there's that as by
• 1:01:16
  it book possession
• 1:01:18
  no a different one because that's british library children's
• 1:01:21
  something children's
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_02: parade or
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 1:01:25
  it's about two little boys who meet in the British Museum in
• 1:01:28
  the 19th century,
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: and there's a plot to it as well.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then a plot happens.
• 1:01:35
  And I've actually only read the first 50 pages,
• 1:01:37
  so then I forgot I was reading it.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_02: Classic.
• 1:01:41
  There is that Penelope book that I bought your dad about the
• 1:01:52
  King Tut exhibition.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: Penelope Fitzgerald.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was her first book and she wrote it.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_02: Her husband was sick and she wrote it to entertain him.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it's about like a caper at the British museum.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's cute.
• 1:02:06
  there's other ones okay and then of course there's the boy who
• 1:02:11
  breathed on the
• 1:02:12
  glass in the british museum i just think there's something
• 1:02:14
  about the british museum
• 1:02:15
  that's like maybe because it's kind of this um like repository
• 1:02:21
  of all of these more
• 1:02:21
  like dionysian elements in a society that has rejected those
• 1:02:25
  things it makes it a
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: good location for fiction
• 1:02:29
  yeah well especially like what's in the british museum's
• 1:02:32
  collection like the
• 1:02:33
  rosetta stone too huge like i don't know the way that they're
• 1:02:37
  trying to like
• 1:02:38
  regulate and um regularize these like really like mysterious
• 1:02:44
  things ultimately like
• 1:02:45
  the rosetta stone actually is not a mystery it's actually the
• 1:02:47
  thing that unlocks
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: the mysteries yeah but why did it exist yeah no one really knows do they
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: I really don't know anything about the Rosetta Stone.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: I know Napoleon stole it.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's also what I know about it.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: And they cracked the code.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, speaking of mystery, you know what else happened in 1845?
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is this a spooky episode?
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know, it's really haunted.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: Which is unlike me, because you know I'm a huge scaredy cat.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: What else happened in 1845 is The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe was published.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: Nevermore.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: Nevermore, you know.
• 1:03:20
  that's leonore leonore is the name of the lost lover of the
• 1:03:27
  narrator of the raven
• 1:03:29
  so basically the raven okay so basically it's about a bird it's
• 1:03:35
  about a huge bird
• 1:03:36
  um it's like the spookiest thing ever can you believe i read
• 1:03:39
  such a spooky poem for
• 1:03:40
  preparing this episode no i can't so there's amazing
• 1:03:44
  illustrations of the raven by
• 1:03:46
  gustave doré that's not what i was thinking but those are
• 1:03:49
  really good those are
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_02: really good i think it's mayonnaise
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_02: Also did it.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the Raven is like probably one of the most famous poems ever.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_02: And like late 19th century,
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: like French artists loved Edgar Allan Poe,
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_02: like symbolists loved Poe.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he was really ahead of his time.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the poem begins once upon a midnight dreary.
• 1:04:21
  And it's about a man who's sitting there miserable,
• 1:04:24
  like weak and weary or something.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he hears a tapping.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if I could guess.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04:31
  guess the raven if you gave me every other line it's okay once
• 1:04:36
  upon a midnight jury
• 1:04:38
  jury while i pondered weak and weary over many a quaint and
• 1:04:43
  curious volume of
• 1:04:45
  theory no it actually doesn't rhyme forgotten lore okay we can
• 1:04:49
  move on it's 14
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: minutes long when read aloud i listened to a recording
• 1:04:53
  okay so basically there's this man and he's sitting there once
• 1:04:57
  upon a midnight
• 1:04:57
  dreary and he hears this tapping on the door he opens the door
• 1:05:01
  raven flies into his
• 1:05:02
  house which is what many people would call a nightmare yeah
• 1:05:05
  this reminds me of my
• 1:05:07
  dad came home from a walk with his friend who's a birder and
• 1:05:11
  there was a hawk
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_01: inside of our house and
• 1:05:14
  that was that guy's dream yeah so my dad's friend was thrilled
• 1:05:17
  because there was a
• 1:05:17
  hawk in the house and a hawk out of the house well with a net
• 1:05:21
  of course and my dad
• 1:05:24
  is like oh my god there's a hawk in the house and he runs into
• 1:05:26
  the tv room where my
• 1:05:27
  brother is watching tv and he's like virgil did you know
• 1:05:31
  there's a hawk in the
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: house and he said yeah i think it went that way
• 1:05:36
  so yeah the virgil had let the door open a hawk flew in but he
• 1:05:40
  did not get up from
• 1:05:41
  in front of the tv um so the narrator asked the raven what his
• 1:05:45
  name is which of
• 1:05:46
  course is what you would do yeah the raven says never more and
• 1:05:51
  it turns out that
• 1:05:52
  the raven only knows one word never more probably taught to him
• 1:05:56
  by his previous
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: owner
• 1:05:57
  yeah and the narrator starts freaking out thinking the raven is
• 1:06:00
  like his lost love
• 1:06:01
  lenore coming back but the raven is like never more and the
• 1:06:08
  narrator gets crazier
• 1:06:09
  and crazier and he's like asking the raven were you sent here
• 1:06:14
  by the angels as a
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: like reminder of my lover and the raven's like never more yeah
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and basically the poem ends, the Raven won't leave.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's sitting on top of this bust and its shadow is on the ground.
• 1:06:29
  And the narrator is like,
• 1:06:30
  and the lamp light over him streaming throws his shadow on the floor.
• 1:06:34
  And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the
• 1:06:37
  floor shall be lifted.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: Nevermore.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: He dies from scared.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't die.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: He's like left haunted by the memories.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's about how you can never escape.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: Your nightmares.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: My soul from out that shadow.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think he died.
• 1:06:54
  I thought he was just,
• 1:06:55
  well,
• 1:06:55
  I guess he looks dead at this illustration by Dore.
• 1:06:58
  I think his soul was lifted from the shadow being like the
• 1:07:04
  physical realm being the
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_02: shadow in this poem,
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: which is not a story of true events.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm absolutely haunted.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_02: And was lifted so that never more should he haunt this earthly realm.
• 1:07:21
  Well,
• 1:07:21
  of course,
• 1:07:21
  my main association with the Raven is the Gilmore Girls episode.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: Which I rewatched.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_02: I was waiting for you to bring it up.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_01: I rewatched it on the train this morning and was dying...
• 1:07:33
  this incredible line where so the poe society has descended
• 1:07:36
  upon stars hollow and
• 1:07:37
  they're all staying at the independence inn and lorelei says to
• 1:07:40
  michelle is this
• 1:07:42
  are these guests from that ground poe society and michelle says
• 1:07:45
  i should i should
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: say don't butcher this it's
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: He says it instead of being called the Edgar Allen Poe Society,
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: it should be called the,
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_01: quote,
• 1:07:56
  I should be sterilized so that my disturbing idiosyncrasies
• 1:08:00
  aren't passed on to the
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_01: next generation society.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then Lorelai and Rory go to the Poe Society reading and...
• 1:08:11
  they're bored obviously because there's two guys reading the
• 1:08:15
  raven in a row but you
• 1:08:16
  said it only takes 14 minutes i know that's what that was my
• 1:08:19
  big revelation i was
• 1:08:20
  like what are they complaining about it's 30 minutes an hour of
• 1:08:23
  their lives um but
• 1:08:24
  lorelei complaining churns rory and says i thought i thought
• 1:08:28
  poe was supposed to be
• 1:08:29
  downright funnalicious funnalicious downright funnalicious
• 1:08:35
  that's an incredible
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: that's haunting well
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: To which Rory replies, well, you know, Poe was kind of a big drinker.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: So bringing it back to alcohol, Poe died of alcoholism.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but in a really mysterious way.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_01: So Poe on October 3rd,
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: otherwise known as Mean Girls Day,
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_01: but also known as the day that Poe died.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what Mean Girls Day is.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to dwell on it.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't have said it.
• 1:09:03
  In Mean Girls,
• 1:09:04
  not Lorelai,
• 1:09:07
  Lindsay Lohan is like,
• 1:09:08
  on October 3rd,
• 1:09:09
  he asked me what day it was.
• 1:09:10
  And then it shows the clip where her crush,
• 1:09:14
  Aaron Samuels,
• 1:09:15
  is like,
• 1:09:15
  what day is it?
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, it's October 3rd.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, of course.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: So Poe was found semi-conscious in Baltimore, freaking out.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he lived in Baltimore.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: He actually didn't.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_01: He lived a lot of places, including New York.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, really?
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_02: He's most famously associated with Baltimore.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_01: He was born in Boston and lived in New York.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but he was born in Boston like the bastard son of an actress.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then he was raised in Virginia.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_01: By his adopted father who eventually disowned him.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think he went to like military school in Baltimore.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_01: He went to West Point and dropped out.
• 1:09:48
  he went to military school in the hudson valley wow um so
• 1:09:53
  basically he's found on
• 1:09:54
  october 3rd freaking out he's wearing somebody else's clothes
• 1:09:58
  he's repeatedly
• 1:09:59
  saying the name reynolds and then he dies at the time the
• 1:10:02
  newspapers report that he
• 1:10:04
  died of quote congestion of the brain or cerebral inflammation
• 1:10:08
  which were common
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: euphemisms at the time for dying of alcoholism
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:10:12
  but people have speculated that he was having withdrawals from
• 1:10:16
  alcohol or that he
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: was suffering from syphilis or carbon monoxide poisoning or rabies.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, how did people die of carbon monoxide poisoning before cars?
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Where were they getting carbon monoxide?
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Are we being so stupid right now?
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Probably.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, cause it's like space heaters.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Face eaters don't have carbon monoxide.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: But they used to.
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_02: People would die from that.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like your stove kills you of that, right?
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, anyway, let's figure that out.
• 1:10:48
  But some people also think that Poe was a victim of something
• 1:10:52
  called cooping,
• 1:10:53
  where gangs would kidnap people off the street and force them
• 1:10:58
  to vote for a
• 1:10:59
  candidate in an election over and over and over by plying them
• 1:11:03
  with alcohol and
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: forcing them to change their clothes.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: So like he was wearing... You've never seen Gangs of New York.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Which comes up every episode.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's thought that
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_01: the writer of the Raven Poe died from pooping or alcohol.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_02: Was Reynolds like a candidate?
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_01: You'd think somebody would have looked that up.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you'd think maybe I would have, but of course they didn't.
• 1:11:28
  But also something weird is that Poe turned to drinking after
• 1:11:33
  the tragic death of
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_01: his wife,
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_01: who was his first cousin,
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_01: who was also 13 years old when he married her,
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_01: and who he cheated on forever.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And she died of heartbreak.
• 1:11:46
  again yeah it's heartbreak and tuberculosis okay like she had
• 1:11:51
  tb but then she also
• 1:11:53
  found out in her weakened state the heartbreak was too much for
• 1:11:56
  her to overcome
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: exactly so kind of that's what i have to say
• 1:12:01
  i'm thinking about times that i felt heartbroken would they
• 1:12:04
  have killed you if it
• 1:12:05
  was like ever a question i had if i was like weak of lung maybe
• 1:12:10
  i would have died
• 1:12:11
  of heartbreak because you're crying and you couldn't breathe or
• 1:12:13
  something yeah yeah
• 1:12:15
  like hyperventilating yeah i want to do that so do you have any
• 1:12:21
  questions i've kind
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_01: of scared myself with these topics yeah you've picked spooky
• 1:12:27
  yeah but it's like spooky but it's also kind of like i wouldn't
• 1:12:31
  say spooky it's
• 1:12:33
  like terrifying in the way that like an angel is terrifying in
• 1:12:37
  a real capella like
• 1:12:39
  the terror of like a godly power a terror of a beyond that's
• 1:12:45
  incomprehensible
• 1:12:46
  yeah which i prefer to like horrific crime like body horror
• 1:12:50
  yeah i like to be
• 1:12:51
  spooked because of something that's so real and yet so
• 1:12:54
  fantastical i am troubled
• 1:12:57
  all the time by like my material existence you know you know i
• 1:13:01
  am my immortal soul
• 1:13:04
  yeah i worry about it oh god and it's literally a tale as old
• 1:13:08
  as time if this
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_01: episode has taught me anything yeah
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering if I believe in an immortal soul right now.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Do you?
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like a, like a, um, like a discreet, like defined soul.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, I kind of yours alone.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think so.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't believe in that.
• 1:13:25
  I think I'm made up of many parts of other people and I will
• 1:13:29
  make up parts of other
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_01: people and things and winds and breezes when I,
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's something like un,
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_02: uncharacterized.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think everything has to go somewhere.
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_02: The great goop.
• 1:13:43
  gwyneth paltrow okay thanks for tuning in love you bye bye the
• 1:13:48
  books hello you've
• 1:13:53
  reached 1-800-1800 1-800-1800 i have a burning question
• 1:13:58
  1-800-1800 1-800-1800
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_00: 1-800-1800 i have a burning question