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Robyn Harding:Strangers in the Villa · Storied Account with Jen Jumba

• Jennifer Jumba: This is Story to Count with Jen Jumba. In conversations with writers, something magical happens, and we begin to see them as human beings and not just the name on the spine of a book. My hope is through these conversations, you learn about their craft, them as a person, and you'll become like me, fiercely loyal, want to read their current book, entire backlist, any future book or any book they blurb. And when you see their name, you'll want to support them, not only as incredible storytellers, but also the thoughtful individuals you have come to know. ⁓ My guest today is Robin Harding. ⁓ She's the bestselling writer of several novels, including Haters, ⁓ The Perfect Family, The Arrangement, and Her Pretty Face. Her novels, The Party and The Drowning Woman were finalists for the Crime Writers of Canada Best Crime Novel Award. Her novel, The Swap, debuted as number one on the Globe and Mail and Toronto Star Canadian Best Seller list. ⁓ Robin is also the screenwriter and executive producer of the independent film, The Steps, which I did watch last night. She lives in Vancouver, British Columbia with her family and two cute, but deadly rescue Chihuahuas. Robin's books are always bestsellers. And I have no doubt that her latest Strangers in the Villa, which just published two weeks ago, will also top the charts. I've been lucky enough to have met and spent time with Robin. And I will tell you that she is sharp, kind, funny, and just a truly fantastic person. Robyn Harding: Ha Jennifer Jumba: So welcome. Robyn Harding: ⁓ thank you, Jen. Geez, I'm blushing now. Such a nice intro. Jennifer Jumba: Well, we're here to talk about Strangers in the Villa, which just published two weeks ago. And I know you're typically asked with, you what's the elevator pitch for this story, but can you just briefly introduce us to Strangers in the Villa? Robyn Harding: Yes, okay, so this is a story of a couple, Curtis and Sydney, who have moved to Spain to repair their marriage. There's been an infidelity and they've decided to flee the scene of the crime and rebuild their love and their commitment and their trust ⁓ as they rebuild this old villa that they have bought on a hillside above the Costa Brava. and they're struggling with this ⁓ and they're feeling quite isolated, quite lonely and one day another couple breaks down, their van breaks down on the road outside of the villa and Sydney and Curtis decide to invite them in and let them charge their phones and then let them, you know, help out around the place and these strangers will rock the relationship and there are secrets and there are dark crimes in the past and someone is not going to leave the villa alive. Jennifer Jumba: it is a terrific story. So I know you are a world traveler. So did you travel to Spain and see this place and think, ah, this should be set here? Or did you think about an isolated location and then decide this is where I should travel to see it? How did that all work? Robyn Harding: I went on a trip to Spain ⁓ three years ago, almost four years ago now. And while there, we were with a group of friends and they ⁓ said, ⁓ you need to meet our friends who have just moved here. So we had lunch with this couple from Australia who had just left Sydney, had given up everything. and they were living in this beautiful house, ⁓ very isolated, very remote, just the two of them on this hillside above the Costa Brava. And everyone was thinking, wow, they're living their dream. It's so wonderful. It's so idyllic. And my brain was going, ⁓ how could they go so wrong? Right. You're all alone. You don't speak the language. You don't have any friends or community around you. Jennifer Jumba: Right? Okay. ⁓ Robyn Harding: just the two of you and I just thought, oh God, that is such a great setup for a thriller and this sunny, beautiful, idyllic location juxtaposed with secrets and lies and danger. just really spoke to me. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, absolutely. mean, I've been to Spain and I think you capture this part of the world beautifully. I mean, with the the hills and the mountains and the seaside and capturing the culture. Robyn Harding: ⁓ was such a fabulous trip and it's funny that such a horrifying story came out of it. I do definitely capture the beauty, I think, of that area. And I was lucky enough to spend time there. Took a lot of photos. I grabbed real estate brochures. I knew I was going to write something set there. So I was kind of doing my research. Jennifer Jumba: it kind of makes me think a little bit about, wherever you go, there you are, you know, so you could escape, this, ⁓ as you scene of the crime and flee, to a country where you know no one and you're relatively isolated. And I think a lot of times it's great to be able to take a step back, and kind of avoid the, typical things or distractions that get in the way. you know, initially, I'm really rooting for, Sydney and Curtis to like, okay, you can you can fix this, you can figure this out and Robyn Harding: you Jennifer Jumba: you know, having a collaborative project I think helps. Robyn Harding: Yeah, and it is such a grand gesture the guilty party towards the injured party. ⁓ just leave it all behind. All I care about is you, ⁓ we'll leave our jobs, we'll leave our friends, we'll leave any distractions, and we will work on us. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: I mean, for somebody to sweep in and buy this beautiful villa, I mean, it sounds like a great gesture, for sure. And Sydney's leaving a pretty big job, right? she was, a defense attorney, in New York City. obviously, you know, representing people that, could cause trouble. Robyn Harding: Yeah, public defender. you know, ⁓ taking on people that, you know, it's not necessarily the same as being ⁓ a paid defense attorney, right? She has a real sense of justice. But yeah, she's representing people who have or have not done really terrible things. So she is leaving behind some scary people. Jennifer Jumba: Correct. Robyn Harding: in her past. Jennifer Jumba: Right. And same with Curtis. mean, he's leaving behind, a big career as well. you have two people who are used to kind of being incredibly successful at the top of their games deciding let's leave it all behind and start over. And it was something, like having to rehab a villa and learn those kinds of skills. I mean, painting, I think we can all do, but I mean, if you asked me to do carpentry, I'd be kind of lost, ⁓ Robyn Harding: Yeah. that's why this couple, Bianca and Damien, who ⁓ up at the door with like a skill set that is very useful ⁓ also the dynamic of, you know, these two city slickers who are very, ⁓ yeah, like you said, used to having the power and having influence and, ⁓ you know, being sort of upper echelon and then these two. ⁓ come in and they come from different backgrounds and there is a, know, but they have different strengths and different level of confidence and different foundation in their relationship. So the dynamics between the two couples was really fun to write. Jennifer Jumba: There are times where I think, it would, it would compliment one another, right? Because you have different skillsets, whereas, Curtis talks about, ⁓ he was beaten, raised, intelligence was rewarded and not necessarily, manual labor. And, he never really got into fights. ⁓ he was ⁓ much more, I guess, cultured or sophisticated or whatever right word is. ⁓ Robyn Harding: Yes. Yes, yes, good point. And Damien is very physical. But I think then there's, you know, this, you know, insecure, challenged masculinity that comes out in Curtis, but when he is faced off against this big burly Aussie who can do all these, you know, work with his hands and do all these things. it makes him, it makes Curtis even more insecure. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Right, and then it causes a bit of tension. So it always is interesting, know, they say, you know, opposites attract and sometimes that works, it complements one another and other times it creates this tension because you have two different classes where Damien and Bianca are, let's say they come across as these free-loving souls that just kind of ride the wave of life and kind of always seem to land on their feet. they're riding through, the countryside and... this van and just experiencing life. ⁓ Robyn Harding: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and like many years ago, many, years ago, I went backpacking for six months. And it is so interesting when you are all travelers, you're all out of context. It doesn't matter what your real life looks like back home or where you come from or how wealthy your family is or whatever. You're all in these hostels and you're all just who you are. And it's really always been fascinating to me is that when you take people Jennifer Jumba: You're welcome. Robyn Harding: out of their natural environment and plunk them in a new one, ⁓ know, dynamics change and confidence changes and who you thought you were is challenged. you know, it was just, there were so many things to play with ⁓ having, you know, these, this mystery set in, in this different ⁓ location. Jennifer Jumba: Right. ⁓ past couple of years, I've taken a few solo trips. I mean, solo with a group of other solo travelers. And it is interesting the dynamic that you have, 12 or 16 people from, you know, all over the U S and Canada that are, it's almost like an episode of the real world, right. Forced to come together, right. ⁓ To, travel together interesting that the dynamics ⁓ group dynamics that influenced in terms of, how you interact. And ⁓ there are times where I'm well, this is an opportunity to kind of reinvent. Robyn Harding: Yeah. Hello. Jennifer Jumba: you know, kind of figure out who I really am outside of that environment where I feel like I'm, in this box, ⁓ and then there are times where I'm like, ⁓ no, like, I didn't know I could do this. This is kind of cool. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. So think that's the interesting thing with, with these two couples, you know, it, ⁓ starts with, as said, they knock on the door, van died, ⁓ you know, right out front. we charge phones? Look, our phones are dead. Okay. Seems rather innocent. Robyn Harding: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, good for you. I love that. I love that. Jennifer Jumba: And then they end up staying for a longer period of time. ⁓ Sydney's of starved for, for company. It's been her and her husband for the last four months. ⁓ Robyn Harding: ⁓ Yeah. And she's the one that's kind of been, you know, she's wounded and she's broken and she's looking for kind of reinvention. And I have seen a few reviews like, who would ever invite someone into your home? I would if I was talking to my husband for four months. Jennifer Jumba: right? Yeah. Yeah, did we learn nothing from the pandemic when we're locked in our house? Right? Robyn Harding: Right? You're just like a couple. They're the same age as us. They are fun and funny. They have skills. I thought, ⁓ I don't know. I would probably be like, yeah, it's great. So. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, sure. No problem. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I think, yeah, I think the same thing, you know, I would probably do, do the same. it's, it's really kind of interesting that, you know, you talk about secrets and lies and it starts with an infidelity on Curtis's behalf. So hence the grand gesture of, look, I bought us a Villa and we're going to leave everything behind and, ⁓ and allow to focus on us. But yeah, best laid plans, right? Robyn Harding: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. That goes wrong fairly quickly. By chapter three, we know things are not going to work out that way. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: No, of course. Yeah. Plus we see your name on the cover, so that's also a bit of a clue. Robyn Harding: things are not going to go well. I always say my books are about a blah blah blah that goes horribly wrong. you know, insert whatever that is and it's not going to go well. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Right. But I'm but I'm also always kind of struck about the themes that come up in your book and in the themes of like, who are we, are ⁓ are the people we think we know, are they really who we think they are, I'm always fascinated. ⁓ We think we know somebody ⁓ Robyn Harding: Yeah, and I... Yeah, you know, theme is very important to me, especially in this book. And the theme I really wrote to was what is forgivable. So there's so many layers of things going on in this story. You know, there's infidelity. Can you get over it? Can you ever really let that go? ⁓ You know, different flirtations and sexual tensions and different things going on. And the theme I wrote to was ⁓ what forgivable. So ⁓ there's so many layers of things going on in story. You know, there's ⁓ Can you get over it? Can you ever really let that go? ⁓ You different flirtations and sexual tensions and different things going on. ⁓ And then there are things that are just deal breakers, you know, that are like, and that the only solution is really vengeance. And so I really kept that theme in my mind of what can you forgive no matter how much you love someone, are there things they can do that you're like, no, no, I will not tolerate that. Or I will make you pay for that, So that was very much in my mind as I wrote this novel. And then there are things that are just deal breakers, you know, that are like, and that the only solution is really vengeance. And so I really kept that theme in my mind of what can you forgive no matter how much you love someone, are there things they can do that you're like, no, no, I will not tolerate that. Or I will make you pay for that, you know? So that was very much in my mind as I wrote this novel. Jennifer Jumba: Right. and to your point, is you talk about layers and nuances. There's so many things happening in this story and I have to be really careful as we're talking to not spoil anything for ⁓ who hasn't read it, who's going to go out and read it, because it's a ⁓ book that you can't stop reading. ⁓ So I'm thinking a little bit too about ⁓ and ⁓ other thing that comes up is feelings. Like we all have feelings. Like you can't really control the feelings you have. What we're essentially supposed to be able to control is the actions or the behavior that comes from those feelings. Robyn Harding: Yes, yes. ⁓ Yeah, I mean, and I think that's the other thing about this isolation is that I think it allows the characters to, on feelings because they're out of context, right? Like they're, if you were at home and you're like, ⁓ I'm feeling a certain way, I will hide that. I will, you know, in my society, at work, with my... around but you're just plunked in this environment which gives you this freedom that when you are provoked or excited or attracted or whatever you feel this carte blanche because it's just you it's just you four in this environment you're not even communicating with the people around you no one speaks fluent Spanish so you know they don't have any they don't have any context they're just Jennifer Jumba: No. Robyn Harding: for individuals and so everybody's kind of given this freedom to act on things that they may not have in if they were home. Jennifer Jumba: And I think that things are amplified because there's not the distraction or the, ⁓ I guess face we put on when we're with, those that we work with or those that are our family or those that are, people on our teams or whatever. ⁓ So I find it incredibly interesting. The other thing I think about is, ⁓ ⁓ commitment, ⁓ two ways, first of all, the commitment you make when, you know, you're with somebody. Robyn Harding: Yes. Jennifer Jumba: whether you're married or, know, you're a partner and, know, at, at what point are you so committed that you can't go back, and at the same time with your actions, like you're, you're set on an idea, you're set on, something that, triggers you. And at what point, are you like, ⁓ I'm committed. I can't stop now. Robyn Harding: Yeah, yeah, that is a real struggle, particularly for Sydney, in that she's really doubled down on this marriage. she has, you know, forgiven, she has relocated, she has given up everything. And so, you know, the stakes are so high for her if this doesn't work. Jennifer Jumba: And very early on in the book, I mean, she talks about the fact that, just like everybody in our life, everybody in our life has an opinion on what they think we should be doing, right? What we ought to be doing and fighting against that. ⁓ And she questions herself. The fact that she's choosing to double down, as you say, does that make her weak? You know, ⁓ for, for, forgiving somebody. And if you say you forgive somebody, can you, you know, can she, and can that just, you know, Robyn Harding: Yes. Right. Yeah. Hmm. Jennifer Jumba: be gone moving forward and life is complicated. And you do a wonderful job capturing the complexities of what it's like to be human. that the characters are not black and white, that they're nuanced with, there's a little bit of good, there's a little bit of not so good. And we know that life's not easy. Like people say, oh, you know, just put it in the past, they'll let it go. Well, you know, I think most of us would be a whole lot better off if we knew exactly how to do that. Robyn Harding: Yeah. Right. And I think when there's something like an affair in a marriage and people that care about you are, you know, some people are saying, put it behind you and other people are saying, leave him and make him pay and take him for everything he's worth. And, you know, they're trying to shut out that noise and focus on just their marriage. ⁓ But it doesn't, you can't really leave it behind, really. You know, even the feelings, like you said, the complicated feelings and Yeah, all my characters are very complex and there is some good and there is some bad. And, you know, I think we're all complex people. And if, I mean, I want to sound like I'm horrible. If you knew all my thoughts, have, they know every, I mean, how many of us do not ever have unkind thoughts or wrong thoughts or think the wrong thing. Everybody does. Right. And so these characters, Jennifer Jumba: though, we read all your thoughts Right. Robyn Harding: I like to really dig into that. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ the thing is some of your characters say what we think, which is even better. ⁓ it's almost like we have a preview of like, wow, if I were to play that out, that's how it would end. Okay. Yeah. Maybe not, ⁓ maybe that wasn't such a bad move after all. Yeah. The other thing that comes up, I think is, ⁓ is the of, of revenge, that, that stems from jealousy and, know, trying to figure out, what, what the future looks like. Robyn Harding: Yeah. Right, right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: So I find that really interesting as well played out between these two couples. Robyn Harding: Yeah, and that is another theme and this is revenge and letting go of things and what you can and can't forgive. ⁓ Every character is grappling with that kind of thing. even yourself, even forgiving yourself, you know, like there's, I think that people can lie to themselves. I think that people can do horrible things and convince themselves. that it wasn't that bad and justify. think that we see that, we see it all the time. We see people that have convinced themselves that what they did is not wrong or it's minor or it doesn't count for some reason. And ⁓ that I feel is very timely. Jennifer Jumba: there's ⁓ a line in here talking about Bianca, right, in terms of how we choose to act and ⁓ can go back and she talks about she's, ⁓ it's observed that she's mastered the art of compliance ⁓ and herself small and benign, like a survival mechanism. So then that's the other thing that pops up for me is the things that we're willing to do. ⁓ just to be able to survive a particular situation and or person. Robyn Harding: Yes. ⁓ thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, that was, yeah, she, she has, she's a survivor. She is a survivor and she has been able to go along and get along for a long time. And then something has happened in her life that she's like, I can't, I can't just go along and get along anymore. I have to take action. have to take, ⁓ steps to right this wrong. And Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Robyn Harding: Yeah, she is a very complex, interesting character who's grown, had a really rough go of it. A rough life, terrible mothering, you know? You know, when she, one thought that was always in my mind, did you ever watch I, Tonya, the Tonya Harding documentary? I kept thinking about that. I grew up in a very small town. I had a lovely upbringing, but you know, I grew up with... Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. ⁓ yes. Yes. Yes. Robyn Harding: I grew up with rough kids. had, you know, they were just tough. were just so strong. Like, you know, things were not that good at home and they just rose out of it and they were, they were really kind of scary and tough they to be. And that's kind of what Bianca reminded me of. And watching that documentary, I, Tonya, or not documentary, the ⁓ I love that movie. And she's just so ⁓ and so much bad stuff happens to her. And we all know it didn't end well for her, seeing her grapple her way out of ⁓ the mock was really fascinating. And I thought of her while I was writing Bianca. Jennifer Jumba: Well done, because that's the thing that always strikes me about human behavior. I think we're, we're fascinating to look back on, but how two people can go through really similar situations that are tough and one just goes on to kind of perpetuate that cycle. And then another person finds their way to, rise up out of it. and at their, at their core, which normally is ⁓ very well guarded and there, they're good people. Robyn Harding: Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: and so you see this softness ⁓ in but you understand like her mom says things to her, like, I wish you were never born. I mean, I can't even imagine saying that, or hearing that and the impact that that has. ⁓ And Curtis didn't up, in a great household either, he's kind of like, okay, well, I'm going to and I'm going to, use my, academic, you know, my intellect and, ⁓ Robyn Harding: Yes. Jennifer Jumba: build a life. So it's always interesting how people can have similar toxic upbringings and different trajectories, I guess, in life. Robyn Harding: Yes. Yeah, and I think that's really fascinating. And when I write characters, always do ⁓ profiles for them about how they grew up and what their relationship with their parents is like. Do they have siblings? You know, I always create whether it makes it into the story or not. But I think that just really informs who we are and why we do things. So if I know that, whether it makes it into the novel or not, it really informs how they act. when they go through a plot. it's, thank you. Yeah, it's very helpful. Jennifer Jumba: That's fascinating. So do you almost interview them? Is there a list of questions that you always ask to understand essentially who that character is so that they would be acting authentically in the course of your story? Robyn Harding: Well, Jen, I'm very lazy, I will tell you. it's not that... No, I am. It's not that formal of a process, but every character has a you know, a bunch of adjectives, a bunch of scenarios. Like I just put their name and then I'm like, here's where they grew up and here are their issues and here's their relationship with their parents. And it's just kind of more of a free flow background. On paper, I... Jennifer Jumba: You're the opposite of lazy. in your head or is it like written? Okay, good. Okay, that makes me feel a little bit better. Robyn Harding: You write it I'm not that lazy. I do write it down. ⁓ But it's very free flowing in that I'm just trying to get a handle on ⁓ their situation and how they were brought up and how they feel about themselves. And then I feel just like I know them a lot better. And so then when I'm writing, it makes sense how they behave. Jennifer Jumba: That's terrific. contrast that a little bit because you wrote a movie, your screenwriter wrote the steps, which I did watch and absolutely loved. I mean, so many, so many tender moments and so many funny moments. ⁓ So is that different than writing a novel? Robyn Harding: Oh God, it's so different. also it's it's a dramedy. So it's not a thriller in any means. It's, you know, at all. Um, yeah. So I had been writing, um, novels. I wrote six novels, I think. Like my first novel was published in 2004. A lot of people don't know that about me. I've been around for a long time and I was writing like humorous women's fiction. This was back in the, in the Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. No, right. don't think I knew that, and I've known you a while. Robyn Harding: In the Chicklit days, I wrote my first novel was called the Journal of Mortifying Moments. obviously it's so dating. It's actually it's so dated. mean, it's 30 years old or whatever, but 22 years old. It's it is funny, I will say, if I do say so myself. So I wrote a few books in that genre and a lot of my stuff and lucky for me has continued to be options. Nothing's happened yet, but. Jennifer Jumba: Okay. My autobiography. Yeah. Robyn Harding: you know, things get optioned. And so I thought, ⁓ well, I am a novelist. It must be very easy to break into screenwriting. ⁓ my God, it's not. It's what a tough business that is. ⁓ But I did write a screenplay, an original screenplay for The Steps, and it got made into an indie film. And it was a really, really cool experience. Screenwriting was such a... such a learning experience for me because it's really a craft. It's very different from writing a novel. Writing novels feels very natural for me because I've always been a big reader since I was a kid. ⁓ you know, how you tell a story is kind of ingrained in us from reading. But when you're watching a movie, it's very different. Writing the script ⁓ feels more foreign. You have to learn that. You have to learn that craft of showing without any, you know, inner ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: inner dialogue. Yeah. Robyn Harding: a lot yeah so it was it was great and structure structure is really important in screenplays so that craft has really ⁓ really helped me I feel like as I've gone on to write thrillers but ⁓ yeah I got the movie made I got to go to set it was very exciting it premiered at TIFF I got to go to TIFF it was in the Toronto International Film Festival got to go it was the closing Jennifer Jumba: Wow. Yeah. Robyn Harding: the most glamorous thing in my entire life, the closing gala film at the Miami International Film Festival and they flew me to Miami and we went to the cast and we just had, it was so exciting and glamorous and wonderful. But then at the end of the day, I was like, okay, what do I want to do next? And I realized I wanted to go back to writing novels. Yeah, I feel like I really kind of, I'm very introverted, know, like as much as that was, ⁓ I felt like I was more collaborative, but I think as I've gotten older, I'm more introverted and maybe I like a little more control over my work, you know? Like when you write a screenplay, they say, ⁓ at first it belongs to the writer, then it belongs to the director, then it belongs to the editor. So every time you do a project, you're writing a script, they're gonna take it, they're gonna change it, actors have input. So it's very cool, but it's also very different than writing novels, right? And then when it gets edited, it's cut together in different ways. So I am happy with how that movie turned out and it does feel mostly true to the script, but there's lots of lines in there. Jennifer Jumba: Good. Robyn Harding: for good or bad that I didn't write, you know? And people think you wrote every word. Like some of the funniest lines were ad-libs by the actors and some of the... Yeah, yeah. And some of the worst lines that I'm like, oh God, I don't like that one. So what I love about writing novels, it's every word is your own. You work with one editor who is just trying to improve your novel and make it as good as possible. Whereas with screenplays, there are lot of fingers in the pie. There are a lot... Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ no way. Cringe. Yeah. Great. Robyn Harding: a lot of objectives, know, everybody wants, actors want more screen time and they want their character to have more of this and more of that. It was just really, it's just very different. It's very different. Jennifer Jumba: I would imagine you're having to like manage or massage a lot of, well, dare I say egos, but agendas, ⁓ to make come together versus, the autonomy and the agency you have when you're sitting down and writing. Like if you don't want Sydney to have that line, she doesn't have that line or. ⁓ Robyn Harding: Yeah. Yeah. It's all your own, right? So that you really, for better or for worse, you really own it. And I mean, I've only had one film made, it's very, it's very much only one. But I'm not like, thank you. I know I'm not belittling it, but you know, I've just, in this instance, I'm like, you know, I thought it would feel less vulnerable to have like a team that I worked with, but it actually felt more vulnerable, which was weird. And like, Jennifer Jumba: only one. You've had a film-mate. No, I know. Robyn Harding: I remember I, when we went to TIFF, I brought my husband and my mom and my daughter. My son had just started university, so he was, he couldn't come. But we went to Toronto and I had to go in and do an interview in the morning before the screening. And then I went back and I was like, I was so nervous, Jen. It was crazy. Like I have had so many books come out, but this was so different. It's like, it's like, Jennifer Jumba: Really? Yeah. Robyn Harding: sitting in a theater watching this on a big screen and seeing the audience react being surrounded by the reaction made me so nervous and my mom goes I think you need a gin and tonic. So my mom and I went hole in the wall bar around the corner and had a gin and tonic and then we went and got ready and went to the thing and it was fine but it was very nerve-racking. Jennifer Jumba: Great. God love your mom, ⁓ What are you written so many books i would think that because you have that autonomy that that would make you vulnerable but i guess you're not watching people reading in real time so is that the healthy distance. Robyn Harding: Yeah, I think that's exactly what you're, it's sort of like watching and also comedy, right? Comedy is tough because it's like, are they going to laugh or are they not going to laugh? And it was so interesting. The best audience ⁓ response was in Miami and people were laughing so loud. It was so great, but it was so funny. They laughed at totally different things than they laughed at in Toronto. So I'm like, okay, Americans and Canadians are different. Like it was so... Jennifer Jumba: Interesting. Robyn Harding: Like people would laugh at one thing and it'd be dead silence in you know, people laugh in Toronto dead silence in Miami Quiet in Toronto killing themselves laughing in Miami. It was so funny to do that Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, it's interesting. I think I think books are somewhat similar in the fact that we all bring our own life experience to it. So we do sometimes certain things resonate with us a little bit differently than they they do others. But by the same token, I just I think the genius of of you all who write books is the fact that we can see inside that character's head ⁓ to understand why they're doing what they're doing. Robyn Harding: Yeah. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: which I think is really helpful because I think there are moments where, I've sat and like, well, gosh, if I was Bianca, like, what would I do? ⁓ Or if was Sydney, what, what would I do or how would I respond to what Curtis just said? I think that's, that's great. And I don't know that you have that same ⁓ connection maybe to somebody screen and not belittling ⁓ you did. You wrote movie and I loved it. And Josh Ritter, my God, he looks just like his dad. ⁓ Holy cow. ⁓ Robyn Harding: Right. Yeah. Jason. Jason Ritter. Jennifer Jumba: Jason, sorry, ⁓ Josh Ritter's the musician. But I just think, that the books are just this amazing experience that is so different sometimes. And ⁓ what you do is masterful, to be able to, ⁓ you basically ⁓ have to the words I do, but yet you put them together in a way that creates this. ⁓ Robyn Harding: Yeah, well, that's what's... Jennifer Jumba: spectacular scene, this spectacular villa that's overlooking and as they wind down the hill, you know, to the seaside and capturing that spectacular blue of the water and what it's like to be in the bar with the locals who have, the football game on and, ⁓ you are chatting and, ⁓ it's amazing and that, that you like, that you don't like, then you like again. I think ⁓ that's a skill. Robyn Harding: Right. Well, it's, thank you. I mean, I love reading as well. And I think it's the freedom you have when you're writing a novel, you're really, you're in people's heads. can, you know, you can control everything. And I guess that's why with film and TV, it takes a team to get what is in that book, right? On to. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Robyn Harding: to make it a relatable story. So much is in the acting because we can't be inside their heads, actors have to show it on their faces and the screenwriter has to show it through actions. And in a book, we know exactly what they're thinking and we know why they're doing what they're doing. it does give you that depth that is challenging sometimes to show on screen. Jennifer Jumba: So you talked about, being a reader, right? And how much you love to read and reading as a kid. Did you know you always wanted to be a writer? Did you start writing when you were a kid or? Robyn Harding: Yeah, I did. did. And like, as I said before, I grew up in a very small town in the interior of British Columbia, pretty far north. It was a pulp mill town. So it didn't ever feel like a real a realistic goal to be an author. Like, I just didn't know anybody that did that or, ⁓ you know, but I was always a creative kid. I mean, I think about how boring it was back then, you know, without phone. ⁓ I worry about people's creativity. like, how will people become creative? But they are, they're persisting. But I'm just like, it's so much time to just imagine and think and, you know, create in my head and draw and write. And so my first story that I wrote was in Jennifer Jumba: Without the Internet. Yeah. Robyn Harding: grade three. I know you guys say third grade. We say grade three. And it was my teacher put it up in the hallway of our elementary school without asking me. She just did it. And I was so it was like my first ⁓ public. It was my first published thing and I was mortified. I wanted to die. I was so embarrassed. Jennifer Jumba: Wait! But she saw something, clearly. You have a gift for telling story and- Robyn Harding: Yes! Yeah, she did. Yeah, she did. And it was always a natural thing. And I have to say, girl, you know, for a town that was fairly blue collar, we had a lot of mills, had lot of pulp mills and saw mills. And I had such a creative education. I had the greatest teachers that that came in from I don't know where I remember my grade six teacher, Ms. Van Lewsten, I was talking about her came in, she just came in. don't know where she came from. And she had like a video camera and we were allowed to do like, like we were making, you know, little skits and sketches and we were doing radio plays, we were doing all this stuff. And then in high school, I had all these creative ⁓ electives I could take. I took screenwriting directing in Cornell DC in grade 12. I ⁓ creative writing, of course, like just theater. So I really... Jennifer Jumba: Wow. Robyn Harding: feel like I was given a good kickstart. And then it took a while for me to figure out that I actually could write a novel and get it published. But, ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Robin, I'm so glad you followed through on that, and that you had all those creative people to just basically take what was inside of you and just make it visible ⁓ to and ⁓ possible. Robyn Harding: ⁓ Thank you. Yeah, I feel really lucky. I feel really lucky to have that. have another friend ⁓ who I grew up with and she is a really successful artist in Toronto, Ramona Nordell, her name is, and we grew up together and we both say like, what a crazy creative outlet we had despite the environment. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: It makes me somewhat think, mean, know Strangers in the Villa is set in this isolated place, but if you remove distractions, you you remove the internet and the phone and social media and all these other things, does it give an opportunity for people to kind of hone in on on on their, I guess, genuine or authentic self and their creativity? mean, growing up, like I wasn't allowed to watch TV. It was like an hour a day and it was like PBS. And my parents were like, no coloring books. It was like blank tablets of paper and you be creative. And I was like, wait, what? Right? Yeah. So I mean, so I understand to a certain extent that, but it makes me think because you didn't have all those distractions, is that what you and your friend, is she being the successful artist? Is that what people need to be able to take a step back and kind Robyn Harding: Yeah. Wow Thank I don't know. mean, I do see creativity is still flourishing despite everything that's going on. But it's funny when you talk about TV, we never had cable. So we had three channels and two were the same. Yeah, exactly. You have up and change it. And also there was a lot of hockey on in my house. So, you know, I wasn't getting to watch all the stuff I really wanted, which I will say has manifested into a serious TV addiction. Jennifer Jumba: Right? Yes, and you had to probably get up to change it. Robyn Harding: I love TV. watch so much TV. I watch movies. I am like sitting on that couch staring at that box. Like more than is good for me. know that, you see exactly. it does give me, know, I do, I do watch with maybe a more critical eye sometimes I'm like, what an interesting way to tell a story. What an interesting choice for the character made, but also I'm just, you know. Jennifer Jumba: It's part of your research process. Robyn Harding: That's not happening when I'm watching traitors or whatever. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ exactly. It's a great show. Yeah, I was gonna say what does what TV shows like capturing your attention right now? Robyn Harding: Okay, so I just did a rewatch of Succession because, you know, like there are the holy grails of television, the Sopranos, I've watched it through three times, will watch again. My son's done like four times, I think? ⁓ And Breaking Bad, I've rewatched Succession. I'm rewatching Euphoria right now because a new season is coming out. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Okay? Okay. Robyn Harding: But as far as new shows, The Pit is phenomenal. It's phenomenal. God, it's so good. ⁓ The other one I'm watching, and I only know about one eighth of what is going on, but it's so well done, is Industry. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ No kidding. You know it's so funny you mention that because it had a preview before the pit and i was fascinated and i was like okay i i need to get caught up how did i miss this. ⁓ Robyn Harding: Yeah, so you know what, it's really, it's, you know, in the world of high finance. So ⁓ push through the first few episodes. takes a while to attach to the characters. And ⁓ but it's, it's very good. It's really good. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Okay. Yeah. ⁓ thank you. So speaking of stories, do you remember what book it was that you read as a kid that really kind of captured your attention? Because you've always been reading, is there something that you can always look back on and you're like, that was the book? Robyn Harding: ⁓ I think there were few, ⁓ but the one I was a big Nancy Drew girl, big, like obsessed with Nancy Drew. And I remember one time being so scared reading one, there was a seance in it and there was like a ghost wrapping on the wall. And I was like, so scared. And my mom was like, I'm in bed with my lap and I'm like, I'm scared. My uncle's will stop reading. I'm like, I can't. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Right. Great. ⁓ Robyn Harding: But even younger ⁓ was like Roald Dahl. I know he's controversial now, but his books, Games of the Giant Peach and Carly and the Chocolate Factory as a kid, like the storytelling and the world building and the characters. ⁓ God, just love them so much. I'm Judy Blume. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Yes. Matilda. Absolutely. So much fun to see how, things have evolved from you, you know, as ⁓ a from, grade three, your story being published without your consent, you on the wall. Hopefully, you didn't like ⁓ have any of your classmates or teachers to some mishap, we'll say. You weren't writing thrillers in three. ⁓ Robyn Harding: Hahaha! Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: But still, and how you're influenced in writing, ⁓ a and then going on writing ⁓ romance, what ⁓ it called? The ⁓ events. ⁓ Moments, okay. Robyn Harding: The Journal of Mortifying Moments. So it wasn't really romance. was, yeah, like chick lit. was know, this was the Bridget Jones's diary era and connections of a shopaholic, ⁓ RIP Sophie Kinsella, so sad to see such a queen. Yeah, ⁓ so, know, that was, and I think I got in a little late to the genre. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Okay. ⁓ I know. So sad. Robyn Harding: know, timing is so important when you get your name out there and get readers' attention. you know, that was fun. And then what I like to read shifted. You know, I used to read all those books. then over time, I started going darker and darker. And that's when I thought maybe this is what I should try writing, if this is what I enjoy reading. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, can you suspend that critical part of your brain when you're reading today? Or are you always like, what were they thinking? They gave too much away or they shouldn't? Can you suspend that? Robyn Harding: Bye! yeah, I suspended. I suspended. Definitely. Yeah, like I just, I'm so grateful when I get sucked into something. I'm reading Strangers right now, the big memoir, divorce memoir. ⁓ have you heard? But I think it's a number one New York Times bestseller. And I, I mean, it's, it's a true story and it's so horrifying and engaging. It's just about a marriage falling apart, but it's just, you know, I'm just like blown away. ⁓ You know, I guess there's one thing in it where I'm like, the dialogue, you know, sounds a little stilted, but otherwise it's absolutely brilliant. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, there's so much good, so many good books being published right now. And I kind of have an opportunity to read ahead, which I'm lucky and have to, I shouldn't say have to, was asked to, it's probably a better phrase, to moderate a panel at PLA this year and six books, six writers. And, you know, I was told like, put them into two panels, two groups of three, and, you know, find the common themes and facilitate. And I'm like, Robyn Harding: I bet, ⁓ excellent. Jennifer Jumba: Okay. And I'm reading a true crime, which I typically don't do. ⁓ but it's all about Alex Murdoch and that, and I'm, it's like, you, I'm like horrified reading it. And like, it's a journalist who's writing this, like, and, I'm seeing transcripts and I'm seeing like interviews in the, in the car and like with the police officer and Alex and just like, Robyn Harding: Mmm! Yeah. ⁓ Yes. ⁓ yeah. Wow, is this it? Jennifer Jumba: It's almost like I have to read with the lights on, you you talk about like watching movies that are really scary, like I'm reading with the lights on and then I'm like, I have to wash my eyes out. Like I'm having like a hard time reading it, but at the same time I'm fascinated by it. If that makes any kind of sense. Robyn Harding: Wow, is this the story that the Hulu series is based on? Oh, maybe it's a different, is it a podcaster or a journalist? Okay, I think that it's based on a woman who was a journalist, but did a podcast, the series I watched. Yeah, that is. Yeah, wow. Jennifer Jumba: I don't know, is this called The Family Man by James? Mm-mm, journalist. Okay. Yeah, I don't want to watch it until I finish this book, but I'm, I'm, again, like, I'm fascinated. Yeah, James Lutson, I believe is his name. I believe it comes out in May. ⁓ But fast, and I guess it speaks to part of the reason why I enjoy your book so much is that it's human behavior and what people do when they're put in certain situations. And not everybody behaves the way they think they want to, ought to, should. Robyn Harding: ⁓ it's not out yet. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. Exciting. Yeah, and I like to think of, or what's most fascinating to me, and I hope my books are the same, is there a bit more of a why done it than a who done it. I like the why. Why would you do something like that? What drives you to it? And that's what is the psychology. There's a lot of, you know, I have a good friend who's a psychologist who was very helpful in Strangers in the Villa. She's a marriage counselor. And so there was so, she is so helpful. Jennifer Jumba: Exactly. Robyn Harding: in understanding where, you know, where, how you get, how you move forward or don't, right? And what, what else, what these betrayals do to a person. Jennifer Jumba: Right. This story goes back and forth in perspectives. have like Sydney and Curtis's perspective and you have Bianca and Damien's perspective. And then interspersed, you have the marriage counselor, Ellen, that Curtis and Sydney were seeing. So I think it's really unique because you have what's supposed to, what I imagine is a fair balance because she's hearing both sides, whereas, Damien and, and Bianca are telling from their perspective and you're seeing it from their perspective and same with Curtis and Sydney. So the, the why done it, think is, is absolutely spot on. Once you understand that, that I, you know, condone any of the things that are done by any means, but, but that's the thing with, with Alex, this Alex Murdoch, I can't understand why. Robyn Harding: Awesome. You It's extreme. It's definitely extreme. Oh, God, yeah, he was a monster. I there's a lot of drug abuse and, know, belly. Jennifer Jumba: Right in financial but just to hear how these kids grew up in the series of bodies that ended I just. Robyn Harding: It's unbelievable. is a, yeah, that's like staggered. Wow. Well, I've written it down, so I look forward to it. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I need I need some chiclet like as a palate cleanser after my like Yeah, so this has been a delight being able to catch up with you. Just been so excited by everything that you have written over the last several years. so thank you. Yeah, so. Robyn Harding: Thank you so much Jen and you've been such an ongoing support. I really appreciate you. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ likewise for this little project of mine. So this is like the story's end, right? Final five questions. Okay. So you've been to Spain a few times. What's your favorite thing about the country or the culture of Spain? Robyn Harding: Okay. ⁓ you know what? I'm going to just have to go with the water, the Mediterranean. I have had the best swimming experience of my life at Agua Blava, which is a beach that is in the book. And it is truly, I'm like, this is the most heavenly experience I've ever had. Like just the buoyancy and the clear water and the, ⁓ just. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Robyn Harding: Just beautiful. There's more things. There's the food. There's the culture. There's the people. There's so much, but just that moment just stayed with me. Jennifer Jumba: Right. That moment. Yeah. That spot. I think it's great that you're able to capture that in the book. Just a reminder. ⁓ Curtis Sydney buy a house to renovate. Right. What's one skill that you have that would be beneficial if you were to renovate a villa? ⁓ come on. Robyn Harding: You I don't have any skills. Also, I don't have any patience. said to my husband when we bought our house about seven years ago, I was like, there can be no renos done. I was like, I can't do it. I can't live through it. I can't exist in the chaos. I don't have any skills, whatever. And like we did one tiny thing and we were on, we were away when the reno happened and no, zero, zero. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Are you good at keeping secrets? Robyn Harding: Yes, I am. it really matters, yeah. If someone tells me something and they're like, please, this is important to me, don't tell anyone. I have many secrets that no one ever knows. Jennifer Jumba: to know. ⁓ So you are a traveler. Carry on or check baggage? Robyn Harding: Yep. ⁓ it depends, but, ⁓ I did lose my luggage once, ⁓ on the way back from Spain, on the way back from Spain and I lost a suitcase for, ⁓ three weeks. I did get it back, but it was very stressful and very, ⁓ sad. had things that I had, like just a few gifts and things I bought in Spain that I really, that really mattered to me. This little bracelet I got. It's like got the gaudy font R on it and I just really loved it and for some reason it's so tiny but I put it in the suitcase and I'm like my little bracelet's gone. But I got it back so ⁓ if I can do carry on I do but also big overpacker so it's tough. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ yes. Yeah, widow or aisle. Robyn Harding: I'll stretch my legs. Jennifer Jumba: that's right. You're a lot taller than I am. ⁓ And then the final what song is always on your road trip playlist? Robyn Harding: awesome that's so good. I'm going to go with Depeche Mode, something by Depeche Mode. Like my husband and I, our musical tastes overlap with Depeche Mode. know, I like, well, no more. He's still really stuck in his grunge era and I've moved on. So, you know, we both are big fans of Depeche Mode and can't go wrong with personal Jesus. Jennifer Jumba: And that's it. Yeah. It's like the Venn diagram. Yeah. No, absolutely not. ⁓ a huge thank to all of you who are listening and even bigger thank you to Robin Harding, ⁓ who's spectacular story in the villa just published two weeks ago. Make sure and get your copy today. Make sure you have everything done because you won't be able to stop reading. Robin has a wonderful talent for writing stories that leave you wondering what you would do as you keep turning the pages long into the night. To know who else is going to be a guest, go to story to cut. It's a story to count with Jen Jumba. Robyn Harding: Thank you, Jen.