Latest / Macroaggressions / #673: The Art of the Steal | John Perkins

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#673: The Art of the Steal | John Perkins · Macroaggressions

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It's all about the macro productions
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We can believe that we cannot track 2.3 trillion dollars in transactions and uncovering the century's long plan for world domination
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Years so if you're interested don't get pushed around calm is where to go. All right. This is always a fun
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episode for me because I'm very
5:21
Very vocal about this, you know, I would not be doing what I'm doing if it wasn't for two people David
5:26
Ike the books and the more even like the speaking
5:31
The videos of David Ike talking about the world through his eyes, you know, do you connect with this?
5:37
Do you see these things? Do these make sense?
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and
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the book that I read in
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2007 confessions of an economic hitman by John Perkins it just
5:47
Was a light bulb moment if ever there was one
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I remember being
5:53
This is a testament to how great I thought the book was being underwater. I was on a dive trip to Thailand underwater and
6:00
And checking my oxygen and being like, oh man, I got to come up, you know
6:05
Running out of air. Well, well, you know, I'm doing three dives a day
6:08
So we'll do the next one, but at least I get to read another chapter of that book
6:13
That was what was going through my head man
6:14
So if you have not read confessions of an economic hitman, how dare you?
6:20
Go out and get that immediately because it just will explain so many blinds to me
6:26
There's so many blind spots that I had
6:28
John was able to shed a light on that in a way that was very authentic
6:33
And of course, I really do appreciate the pivot that he made in his life
6:39
to recognize that he had been on the side of the bad guys there and that
6:47
And that in this episode we get into it
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I encourage you to stick around towards the very end
6:52
We we talk about the difference between a death economy and a life economy and that's something that
6:57
Most people aren't thinking about these days, but please enjoy my conversation with the great John Perkins
7:02
Well, it's always good to have John Perkins back on the show. How are you John? How's this new book?
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I'm great Charlie
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well
7:12
The new book is it's it's it's probably the best most important book I ever written
7:17
but it was also one of the most difficult to write because it deals with a you know a very interesting time in in our human history and
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A challenging time and a tough one sometimes to write about
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For sure. This is
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Art of the steel Trump and the economic hitman presidency boy
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You think you've seen it all and then Donald Trump comes back into office and and and it reminds me of
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The George Carlin quote when you're born in this world you get a ticket to the circus
7:51
But when you're born in America, you get a front-row seat and that's what it's felt like the second time around
7:58
I don't know what you were expecting
8:01
but I think a lot of people were under the impression that Donald Trump was gonna come in a second in the second term
8:08
after being
8:12
Everything short of tar and feathered in the four years leading up to that that he was gonna come in and it was going to be
8:19
Retribution he was gonna right the wrongs. He was going to take out the trash. However, you wanted to see it and none of that happened
8:26
He immediately went into
8:30
kleptography mode where he was stealing everything that wasn't bolted down
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were you surprised at the
8:37
At this first year and a half of the the Trump second administration or was this something that you predicted in the writing of this book?
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little of both
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Charlie, you know, I it
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He came out with such gangbusters that it was I think very difficult to predict all the things that he would hit us with so quickly
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and
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You know, it was always that question of a project
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2025 and
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How closely tied he was he denied that he was tied to that but as it turns out he had the blueprints right there
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He didn't even have to think about what he was going to do
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But you know, I think Charlie what's what's really important about this time is that?
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It's it's shown us that we live at a truly pivotal moment in human history
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You know, I mean we've known for some time that the climate's changing extremely rapidly and income inequality is
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Greater than perhaps it's ever been before and we're facing the possibility of nuclear holocaust
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These challenges are
9:44
incredible AI and every all of these are caused by
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Human beings there are crises that are caused by human beings and particularly they're caused by the economic hitman strategy
9:55
that I was part of that I helped to promote and
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Trump has taken that to new levels every president in my lifetime has used economic hitman
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But Trump is the first to actually be one
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To epitomize this and to bring it to the surface to expose what's going on in that
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I think you know that it's it's been a it's been a difficult year and a half to you
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We're close to two years now
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But I think it's also been a great gift in that Americans are being forced to look at ourselves
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the way much of the rest of the world has looked at us for a long time a
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Country that's basically run by oligarchs. You know the economic hitman, you know, we used we used this this strategy
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of corrupt payoffs extortion
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fraudulent financial reports sex and even murder
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to
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Parallel the world's resources and and make a few people extremely rich the oligarchs who essentially run this country and
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Are very strongly represented by by by Donald Trump and so he's he's hit us with a two by four
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We we now have seen, you know, he's he's woken us up
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He hates to think of people as being woke. Who doesn't want to be woke
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You know like that's just that's hilarious to me, you know, you don't want to be woke
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So put put the people to sleep. Well, he hasn't put us to sleep
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In fact, it's done just the opposite
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So I think it's we can see this as a gift to a certain degree
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The last time you and I spoke we really kind of focused on South America and
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The emergence of the Chinese economic hitman in their entrance into their early on in this second Trump administration
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There was a pivot to
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South America or Western Hemisphere in general, but Venezuela in particular and he started to make noise about Cuba
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Greenland people were trying to figure out what this was they pull out the old map of the North American Technate kind of looks like that from the
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1930s you get a sense of this
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this pivot to
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Prioritize or at least saying that he's prioritizing the Western Hemisphere
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What do you make of that? Is that a move to push the Chinese?
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economic
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Influence out of South America and replace that with the United States or is that too late?
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What do you make of this?
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Well, it's it's hard to make make much sense out of a lot of his foreign policy
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And I you know, I think what he's seeing in Latin America is it has been a movement toward the right
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Anyway, and that's that's a cyclical thing
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We went to the left and the right and the left more recently and then again now the right is on the incline
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And that's that he likes that and that's to his favor and he saw Venezuela as as an easy victim
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some a place where he could go in and take out the leader in a very dramatic way and
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At the same time the drug war, you know
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The Latin America is an easy bad guy for the United States because of the drugs coming in
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You know, we don't give much thought to the fact that we have a heavy demand for those drugs
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And but you know, it's an easy it's an easy scapegoat
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Latin America is the problem. We've got to stop the
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Immigration to the United States from Latin America. We got to stop the drug trafficking
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We've got to get rid of these the socialist leaders like Maduro or Venezuela
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And and that seems like pretty easy pickings as opposed to Iran
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You know, like we took out the leader of Venezuela very quickly
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We took out the leader of Iran quickly, but another one emerged who's even
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You know more right way more more anti-american and has shown us that you know
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He can close on the Straits of Hormuz. He's Iran is
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Because of what the administration wants us to believe
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Iran has has increased its power in the world as a result of this and put themselves in a much better position in so many ways
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So that that didn't happen in Venezuela, of course because Venezuela doesn't have a leverage
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It doesn't control the Caribbean like Iran controls the Strait of Hormuz
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And incidentally, I was one of the people that helped build the military base
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That guards the Strait of Hormuz. We built it for the Shah, but really for the US military back in the 1970s
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I spent a lot of time just down there
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We just which is ironic also
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Wow, what what who are you working for back then?
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Yeah, my company Charles T. Main which was an engineering
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Construction company to a large degree. I was head of the economics department, which was a pivotal department and in
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setting up projects, but
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The company was in charge of designing and managing the the construction of all the electrical and energy systems
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at those military bases, so
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You know and our client was the Shah
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Sorry, the Shah of Iran
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Yeah, so and our client was really the CIA and the Pentagon because the Shah was totally dependent on the CIA and the Pentagon
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We felt that if we built this military base there that theoretically was a Persian Iranian military base
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But really it was our military base
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if we had that military base there we would control the Strait of Hormuz and
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We've known for 50 years that whoever controls that it was military bases
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Controls the Strait of Hormuz and therefore has a huge impact on global economies. It just struck me as total
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absurdity stupidity
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for a
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Country the CIA a Pentagon a White House that has known for 50 years
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That whoever controls bond or a boss and the other military bases along that there
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Has such a huge impact and that's Iran and nonetheless we went in and pissed them off big time
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You know by taking out a leader who really is it turns out wasn't really all that important
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He's been replaced by people who are who are much
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Much more dug in than he was
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Well in in the 70s when you're in the Persian Gulf working for Maine building out this
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Network there's about the time the petrodollar arrangement is taking off
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Did you ever think that you would see the day when?
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America sort of turned I don't know turned its back or just has kind of let that
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Grip that grip on Saudi oil slipped through its fingers. I never thought that I would see this but
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It feels like that things have changed
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Oh totally and and you know back in those days back in the 70s oil was king
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That was you know that that's a lot of the electrical systems that we were producing in these countries that were based on
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Oil oil fired power plants
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boiling gas
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And of course Iran had a lot of oil Saudi Arabia had a lot of oil as you know, I also spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia
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Today
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Oil is still very important, but the future of oil is is
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Extremely questionable and the Saudis recognize this, you know, they're they're trying to diversify into nuclear energy and solar energy and and
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In other forms they understand that that the petroleum is on the way out that the fossil fuel economy is weaning
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It isn't working so well and ironically at the same time
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It seems as though the Trump administration is is putting all of its
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Marbles in this one basket of fossil fuels and and and we're letting the Chinese take over the solar and wind and
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EV
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Markets of the world. It's you just you know, you can't
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You couldn't write a novel about this and as I was writing
18:21
The art of the steel I
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Realized, you know that these the facts is I did deeper
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I dug into all the nefarious things that are going on now under the Trump administration and the oligarchy
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I mean, let's face it. He's just one example
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This is not a partisan book incidentally the Democrats are very guilty of being part of the system too and
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So this is a system that's been growing all during my lifetime. It's really come to a peak now
18:50
But it's it's amazing how
18:53
Bleedent it is including the corruption, you know the corruption of Trump and his family
18:58
That's it's just out in the open. It's just totally totally blatant
19:02
I it's just it's remarkable that that that's going on in the still people supporting it
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When I was a kid there was a veil over this sort of behavior. I was
19:17
That was unbecoming of an American president. There were certain things you didn't do
19:21
You certainly didn't have a UFC event on the White House lawn, okay?
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You didn't you didn't do these things and and I think you know, I'm I'm I'm of the belief
19:31
I'm not a fan of it either party
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There's something cartoonish
19:36
About the Trump administration. There's something unbecoming. It seems of this
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very clampant like
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You know
19:46
in their behavior
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We we spent the last couple of years
19:52
rightly calling out the hunter-bidens of the world for getting themselves on the board of directors of energy companies that they didn't belong on and
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Now here we have the Trump boys
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They're doing the same thing
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On an industrial scale. What what do we make of the the relationship that his sons have to
20:13
Board of Directors of
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Foreign energy companies and otherwise
20:19
It's extreme corruption
20:21
And it may be illegal and let's face it. We've got a lot of legalized corruption
20:27
In in this country and the rest of the world has seen that, you know, they say oh, yeah
20:31
We may have to pay somebody under the counter to sit to mail a letter from our post office
20:37
So we gotta give them a little bit of money under the table to get the letter out there on time
20:42
You don't do that in the United States, but corruption is so huge
20:47
in this country and
20:50
You know, I mean it starts with Citizens United it starts with the idea
20:54
Maybe it doesn't start with that, but that's that's that's emblematic of it. The idea that corporations can
21:01
can
21:02
You know donate as much money as they want to political candidates the C
21:07
O of a major corporation has a lot more than one vote, you know
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You and I may have one vote this guy's got millions of votes and not not literally speaking but through them through his
21:19
His ability to control politicians with campaign financing
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And we all know that if you're controlled by campaign financing of that nature, you're beholden to those corporations
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You don't bite the hand that feeds you
21:32
And so it's that's extreme corruption, but it goes on and on you know in the case of the Trump administration
21:39
You got to buy Trump coins what the Bitcoin people call
21:44
Shitcoins, I don't know as I can use that expression us. Please do
21:47
They are shitcoins if ever there was one the Trump coins are by definition
21:52
Well, they're bribes, you know, they're payoffs and I guess they're legal and you know forcing people to stay in your
22:00
Trump hotels all the diplomats around the world at prime prices and
22:05
accepting
22:09
From a Middle Eastern kingdom
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It's just it's just it's it's so blatant that as you said it
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It's it's cartoonish in some way and the world sees this, you know, I just came back from Latin America
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And and this is a conundrum. It's a joke in Latin America. Like what's the biggest banana Republic in the world?
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The United States. Yeah, it doesn't even have bananas
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But it has all the corruption that and I'm such a much bigger scale
22:44
Yeah
22:45
Well, you know, we were just we did a panel discussion a week ago
22:49
bunch of people from the Independent Media Alliance and the topic was books that changed your life and
22:54
My book that I brought was yours
22:56
Confessions of an economic hitman and I have to remind people of this and and it's not, you know
23:01
The that's a book that millions of people have read and I don't know that it had the same impact on every person that read it
23:07
But for me it had to do with the timing in which I read that book
23:11
I read that book in the spring of 2007 and
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I'm in real estate in Vegas in the hottest real estate market in the world and I'm and I'm I'm
23:24
Not quite understanding how money works. I certainly I have a little bit
23:29
I know just enough to be dangerous with mortgages
23:32
But I don't have the background to understand how how how financially works and I'm reading this book and
23:39
The way you lay it out IMF and World Bank loaning to own you know getting these countries into
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Debt bondage and I thought to myself, you know, that is
23:49
Inadvertently kind of what we're doing with some of our home buyers here in Las Vegas
23:52
They're buying homes that I think that they're probably not going to be able to handle moving forward
23:57
It's not my job to check their finances. They got qualified. They got approved
24:01
You know, but I have questions about their feasibility long-term of managing this alone, right?
24:07
And so that sets the light bulb off for me of how you get a person in debt
24:12
same way you can get a country in debt and extract these resources now if you're Trump and
24:18
And and like you've said the world is now laughing at you. Does it make it harder for
24:24
The scams to get pulled is it is it tougher now for the American Empire or the the economic hitman to pull this game?
24:33
Any longer are people watching for it now on the aftermath of books like yours. Oh,
24:38
Absolutely, I can't imagine having my old job now being an American economic hitman must be extremely difficult these days
24:47
You know, because you know, my job was to go in and convince countries to take loans from the World Bank and other
24:53
organizations that are highly affiliated with the United States and
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Use those loans to hire US corporations to build big infrastructure projects power plants and industrial
25:03
Parks and so on in a country that would benefit the very wealthy people put particularly in that country
25:10
And then you'll go deep into that that's so deep that they couldn't pull themselves out and you know
25:16
We had them then we could just on building military bases on their soil or having them vote with us in the United Nations
25:22
boat sending their collateral resource the oil or whatever they'd use as collateral against the loans
25:27
sell that that real cheap to our corporations and
25:31
And and you know, we could say well then you look the United States is a great model where democracy where you know
25:37
We got a growing economy where you know, we're we're a great model
25:42
Well today that's changed
25:44
For first of all the the Chinese can show that they're a better model
25:50
They're their economic hitman are sitting on top of the world right now and I taught some of them
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I taught at a university in in in Shanghai a few years back at an MBA program
26:02
And I realize it, you know, they wanted me there to explain what what I'd the mistakes
26:06
I'd made so they wouldn't make them and the successes I had so they could repeat them
26:11
And you know, they're doing a bang-up job of partly because they've got a great model to sell
26:16
They've you know, they've they've they had economic growth of averaging around 10% a year for 30 years
26:22
They brought 900 million people out of dire poverty. Nobody else has ever done that on top of that
26:29
They are dealing with tremendous resentment of the United States
26:33
So leaders in Latin America, Africa, parts of Asia and the Middle East are looking for an alternative
26:41
and in these countries that are resource rich particularly in Africa and Latin America that have
26:46
You know resources buried in the ground and today lithium and other rare minerals that are needed in the high tech industry
26:53
they don't have the technology to
26:56
To exploit these resources they need they need help from the outside world
27:00
But they don't trust the United States anymore. They don't trust our corporations. They don't trust us to keep our deals
27:07
They know that a president of this country can come in and erase all the deals that were struck before
27:14
It's it's terrible and yet they also know that the Chinese look to the long term
27:19
They're much more reliable. At least that's that's that's what people believe at this point and they offered this this alternative
27:28
so
27:29
You know Charlie in 2000 in the year 2000 the United States was the number one trading partner with 80% of the world's countries
27:38
Today, it's China. China's about 75% of the world's countries
27:43
in in a quarter of a
27:46
Century it's completely reversed. Yeah, and it's not just because China's got an attractive
27:55
History and incidentally, none of these people really want to live in China
27:59
They'd they'd like to live in the United States, right? We're still seen as this country with a great ideology and
28:07
But as far as what economy do you want to?
28:13
Model yours after the Chinese economy has a lot more going for it than the US and today
28:19
Nobody trusts the United States. It's you just are or our corporations because
28:24
They also know that the corporations are under the thumb
28:28
Of the administration and in tariffs and and tax laws and all kinds of other other laws that change it at a whim
28:35
and and sometimes
28:38
You don't even know where they're going, you know, this president says one thing today and completely reverses himself tomorrow
28:45
and that's extremely
28:48
Just distressing
28:51
How do you yeah, how can you be a you need some sort of stability to plan along, you know
28:57
Five-year plan ten-year plan. How can you make that if you've got a president who's writing everything in pencil and constantly changing his mind
29:05
It's fresh. I don't blame them. I don't blame
29:07
Africa I don't blame the Democratic Republic of Congo of wanting to work with the Chinese
29:11
I don't know if you've seen that documentary empire of dust or empire of sand
29:18
Showing the the infrastructure project going on in in the Congo with Chinese and Chinese hit a hit a wall with that
29:26
In terms of there was only so much intellectual horsepower. They could harness in that country
29:32
In that continent and they were having problems getting
29:37
Building upon their their previous success the roads were not staying paved
29:42
They would pave them then the guys would rip all the pavement out and it was crazy
29:45
um
29:47
But still that is preferred
29:51
Working with the Chinese seems to be preferred over the Americans. Is that simply because you just can't trust them anymore?
29:58
Or is that because there's
29:59
uh, the Chinese have uh
30:03
better a better offer
30:04
On the table for for these countries or a combination of both?
30:08
Yeah, it's a combination. You know for one thing
30:12
Uh, the United States has military bases in over 100 countries
30:16
Most people don't want foreign soldiers on their soil. We didn't during the 1700s. That's not the reason we went to war with England
30:26
And their leaders might be happy with that but but most of the people don't don't want that and
30:33
The Chinese don't have that they they have a couple of bases in Africa
30:38
Uh, there are more almost more supply bases than actual military bases and they're moving more in that direction
30:43
But they don't have that problem that that issue
30:46
um
30:47
They don't tell countries how to
30:49
write their laws and and usually the United States tells countries to write laws that are very favorable to the wealthy
30:57
Cut cut taxes and cut wages to the to the average to the poor when a country's in trouble financially the IMF the
31:06
International Monetary Fund who I also used to work for as a consultant goes in and says, okay
31:12
You know, you can't pay your debts will help you restructure
31:15
But you got to cut taxes on on on those who own the big industries the wealthy the oligarchs
31:22
And you got to cut wages on everybody else
31:24
Uh, that china doesn't do that
31:27
They don't get involved in in in the politics very much not not the way we do
31:32
And so there's a tremendous amount of resentment
31:35
around the world against the american system
31:38
And when there's resentment you look to somebody else because as I said before these countries know that they do not have the technology
31:45
or the resources financial resources to develop those technologies to to
31:51
Exploit the resources underground that they have
31:54
Uh, and so they need help
31:56
Who are they going to get the help from right now?
31:58
They really have two choices the united states of china and and increasingly they're they're choosing china
32:04
Yeah, do you think they'll have two choices the united states and bricks plus
32:12
you think that could be
32:14
In a in a multipolar world
32:16
They're going to have not just china, but the the the system behind china, which includes, uh, you know a dozen other countries
32:24
Well already that's the case. Yes
32:27
Bricks is
32:29
You know it's controlled by china to a large degree like the same as the world bank and the imf pretty much controlled by the united states
32:36
Theoretically they're not there's other countries involved a lot of other countries involved in in both of those organizations world bank
32:42
and bricks and imf
32:45
but
32:46
The china and the united states really have you know have very strong powers over those organizations, so
32:54
bricks the new silk road
32:56
Is you know, that's another example of how china has managed to
33:02
Tie in many many countries to its system
33:06
Through this idea of a new trading alliance that reaches across the world
33:11
So china goes to a country like let's say
33:15
Peru
33:16
And says, you know if you sign a deal with the united states, you're going to get most favorite nation
33:21
Which means that you have the special relationship for
33:24
Trading agreements with the united states if you sign with us with with the bricks bank or with china
33:31
You you we're going to build ports for you and airports that connect you with the whole world
33:36
It's not just about connecting with us in china
33:39
It's about you're going to be able to connect with with with all kinds of resources and markets all over latin america and in africa and in asia
33:48
And in europe all over so we're we're we're making you part of a global
33:53
So new silk road and and that's very attractive to to other countries
33:59
Absolutely and the financing is already provided right it's sort of the same setup as the imf and world bank when you were working with it
34:06
Right you could approach peru and say don't even worry about it. We've got the money set up the the
34:12
chinese development bank is is there we've got
34:16
Yeah, ready to go you just sign on the dotted lines right and i would agree it's a much better pitch
34:23
than then
34:25
Do a deal with the united states or or they'll kill you or you could do a deal with us
34:29
Where we open you up to the rest of the world and make you a trading partner
34:32
Well, yeah, and you mentioned another thing
34:35
I've you know right about the jackals the the guys who go in if the economic hitmen are unable to structure deals in countries these jackals stores
34:43
cia
34:44
operatives usually
34:46
Go in and either overthrow governments or assassinate leaders and we have a long history of that a yin, day in chile and arabians in
34:52
Guatemala and
34:53
In mimosa deck in iran and lamumba in the congo on every continent and the chinese don't have that
35:01
That reputation at all
35:03
At this point
35:04
I do want to mention though charlie that the the chinese have been building some very poor projects
35:11
One thing i'll say about
35:13
The jobs we did is when when our engineering companies went in i think they did a really
35:18
Good job of building power plants and dams and so forth
35:23
The the chinese have built some very poor projects in in ecuador for example
35:27
They have a huge power plant that they built on a
35:31
On a fault line next to an active volcano in a very very
35:36
Fragile environmentally fragile part of the amazon
35:40
And and it's never operated anything close to full capacity because it it's it's it's it's it's just it's on this fault line
35:48
and it can't
35:50
And you know they say well, you know these are growing pains
35:53
We went through this in our own country in china too, but we straightened it out pretty quickly
35:57
And we'll straighten it out here too
35:59
But i did i didn't want to point that out that i'm you know, i think the
36:03
us engineering
36:05
Companies and the engineers can be proud of the projects they built
36:08
Regardless of what the motors behind giving those
36:11
Giving the loans to the countries to build those projects was
36:16
Well, i wonder if also some of the reputation of america over the years
36:21
With its depopulation agenda has seeped into this too because you know that kissinger membo in 74 outlines 13 countries
36:28
That the united states wants to depopulate now
36:31
I would imagine if you're one of those 13 countries and you have an offer on the table from the american empire and the chinese empire
36:38
Coming and saying you know, we'd love to do business with you
36:41
Given the fact that you knew you were slated for depopulation by the kissinger administration
36:47
Is it not reasonable to also make a medical decision that you would rather be governed by the chinese and not the americans and the world health organization at this point
36:57
Well, that's that's out of my league
37:00
I don't know much about that that aspect of it and but i will say you know
37:05
That that was a long time ago and and of course the chinese have also had their population issues with you know
37:11
The one child per family and and how that's coming back to hound them
37:15
I think you know, but overall it's it's very safe to say that the world is looking
37:22
escance at the u.s. Right now and it's it's it
37:26
China is looking better in the eyes of much of the world from the standpoint of the systems that it has
37:33
Again, not necessarily not not necessarily from the standpoint of how its people live in china versus how the people in the united states live
37:40
That's another question
37:41
but another thing to mention charlie is that
37:44
The united china has not
37:46
You know not been involved in wars
37:49
Spending its resources while the united states has devoted so many resources to afghanistan iraq and and now
37:58
iran and
38:01
ukraine russia war
38:03
china stayed out of that
38:04
They've devoted their resources to developing markets and to developing projects in other countries to to winning these friends
38:10
They've put a huge effort into that where we've kind of left the rest of the world out and put all of our efforts into these crazy
38:18
wars
38:19
And that too works against us not just because of the wasted energy and resources and lives
38:27
But the resentment these wars cause and while we in the united states may talk about how bad the
38:33
Uyghur situation is the anti-moslem movement in china, which is bad and it's it's true
38:39
It's it's bad, but so much of the rest of the world says yeah, but you're the guys who attacked iraq
38:45
And afghanistan and now iran
38:48
And gaza you support israel you're the anti-moslems much more than china
38:53
And that's how that's how most of the rest of the world looks at this. We don't see it that way
38:59
Which is ironic and I think we need to understand
39:03
That we've shot ourselves in the foot with this whole idea
39:07
And it's you know, it's the
39:10
Yeah, it's just another example when you were teaching in china
39:15
What is their motivation? I mean, I understand what the american empire's motivation is but but but and I know maybe it's
39:23
Not as easy as just a monolithic one one idea, but but the chinese
39:29
Are they're builders?
39:31
I'm assuming this is part of building this. I mean when I look at the american empire
39:35
It always feels like a trap. I don't know how i'm getting screwed yet
39:39
I know i'm getting screwed. I just don't know how I'll figure it out, but but with the chinese
39:43
Or do are they coming at this with the
39:47
philosophy that
39:49
If we partner up and work with somebody we all benefit or are they coming at this with
39:54
We're gonna spring the trap on them. They just haven't seen it yet
39:58
well
39:59
If you look at the recent history, you know and and and it's not that long ago since world war two
40:06
During world war two and and after that
40:09
Where china was a mess, you know, you had the cultural revolution. You had tremendous violence. You had tremendous poverty
40:17
So here's a country
40:18
that's very aware
40:20
Of what it's like to be impoverished and has pulled itself out extremely rapidly
40:26
Unlike any other country ever in human history
40:30
And but the younger generation still remembers and and has parents and grandparents that talk about this
40:36
They don't want to go back to that. They want to make sure that their country has plenty of resources
40:41
That they that they can continue
40:44
To get to grow and get better
40:46
They also are very aware of the terrible pollution they grew up with
40:51
the the the students at the
40:53
At the mba program where I taught, you know would frequently remind me they say you guys in the united states
41:00
You don't know anything about pollution. You have an experience what we've experienced here. We don't want any more of that
41:06
and they say, you know
41:07
And I heard this frequently in private conversations as well as larger discussions
41:14
We created an economic miracle in this country, you know, we brought 900
41:20
900 million people out of dire property. That's that's three times the size of the united states at the time
41:27
the population and
41:29
And and we've had this extreme economic growth
41:34
It's a miracle, but it came at a horrible price
41:37
environmentally
41:39
And socially
41:41
But we we shown we can create a miracle. So we this new generation
41:45
We're going to create a miracle
41:47
an environmental and social responsibility
41:51
And I heard that over and over charlie, uh, and I I know they were sincere
41:55
Will they be able to do it or not? I don't know, but they're certainly trying, you know, they're they're moving
42:00
They're probably the the most environmentally conscious country in the world. They're still building
42:07
coal plants as are we
42:09
Uh, but uh, you know, they're they're working hard to get more and more into solar and wind and other alternatives
42:16
And they're leading the world in the production of such things
42:20
They really they're motivated
42:23
by a history of extreme suppression
42:26
and poverty
42:28
And they don't want that anymore and and recent and more and during anybody who's who's who's over 20
42:37
Uh
42:38
Experiencing terrible pollution
42:40
Yeah, yeah, the last time I was in shanghai was 20 years ago and it was
42:46
It was rough, you know, it's it's it's polluted. There's no two ways about it. It's it's
42:52
But you wouldn't recognize it today. Oh really?
42:55
Yeah, I mean it's
42:57
Uh, even when I was there in 2012 and even then like there was trees along the rows and it was it was clear
43:03
It was clean and you know, I mean it's China's got a long long way to cleaning its its environment
43:09
It's still got things to do for for sure
43:12
But it's made that commitment and and at the same time we're backing off
43:16
We're we're saying fossil fuels are the answer or our administration is saying that
43:21
And it's not just
43:23
It's not just the united states if we saw what Germany's been doing closing down nuclear power plants
43:28
This is this seems like we're slitting our own throat with energy
43:33
Dependence here this while meanwhile China is building nuclear like crazy and they've made a pivot to
43:39
uh
43:40
Free energy or as free as you can it's cheap as you can get whether it's from the sun or nuclear
43:45
I suppose it generates pretty quickly, but have they been in
43:50
With their economic hitman principles, uh,
43:54
internationally
43:55
Have they been interested in exporting their
43:59
Philosophy on energy to these new countries as well
44:03
Are they trying to get these new countries onto solar and onto nuclear and the things that that are working well in China
44:09
Is that going to be something that gets exported to I don't know Ecuador or who whoever's on
44:14
Has their uh sites on set on them?
44:18
Absolutely, you know because they that's another market for all of those things for them, you know there
44:23
Their way ahead. I am sitting in the office of the head of transportation in in Ecuador
44:29
uh minister of transportation
44:31
A couple of years ago and he invited me in he said I just want you to sit in on this meeting
44:36
I'm having with some chinese engineers and
44:40
um
44:41
They were
44:43
Striking a deal they were signing off on a deal to electrify public transportation in the capital city of keto in other cities
44:52
And he made this point in front of the chinese to turn to me and and really put me on the spot
44:58
This guy was a friend, but he was he was trying really to drive home this point
45:04
He says the united states can't even compete you don't you do have nothing to offer in terms of electrified buses
45:11
and trains and transportation systems and subways
45:16
And even automobiles, you know, I think what's the matter with you people and he says this, you know, and the chinese guys are kind of you know
45:23
I mean, they're very stoic
45:27
I could tell that they were smiling deeply inside while they're signing this huge deal
45:31
Uh to to electrify the public transportation systems in in many parts of Ecuador, but he's right
45:38
He's right. America's has dropped the ball on that. I mean, I've been I've seen BYD cars before
45:44
They're fantastic and they're about half the price of I mean the chinese are eating everybody's lunch and it comes to electric
45:51
And and they're just thinking differently here. Well, you again
45:56
And I was just in Ecuador and I've got friends there who have chinese cars and they say they're
46:01
They're every bit is good
46:04
And have all the technologies that the japanese cars are they don't even talking about american cars
46:09
Oh, no, but japanese cars, but they're half the price of the japanese cars are
46:13
Not quite half perhaps but but pretty close to that
46:16
And they've got all the same technology even more
46:20
So they say they outcompete the japanese and certainly they outcompete the americans
46:25
Or even in the game anymore. No, we gave up
46:29
well
46:31
Listen then let's talk about this because you because you mentioned in the book and I think and I thought it was kind of
46:35
interesting for people to understand that there is a
46:38
Formula when you are an economic hitman, there are four pillars you so to speak that you focus on
46:46
When you really want to put a country into a bind and you describe them as fear
46:52
Debt debt
46:54
Debt not death. I think debt might be worse
46:58
Anxiety over scarcity
47:00
And divide and conquer when you have those four
47:04
Nailed down
47:06
This the few can control the many can they not
47:09
That's those are historical pillars
47:12
and
47:12
Yes, and throughout history fear has been one of the strongest ones, you know fear your neighbors fear invasion fear fear us
47:20
You get a side with us. You got to work with us. You got to trade with us. So it will invade you
47:25
You know, that's that's been a big one
47:28
But but but also debt and and and and and debt is not just money debt
47:33
It's you know, uh
47:35
Your daughter mr. King. I I'm you know, I've taken over your lands
47:40
I've taken over your regime and your daughter's now going to marry my son and we have this
47:44
You're indebted to me kind of thing. You're the godfather, you know, like here's $10,000 for your daughter's wedding. Now you owe me
47:53
And so there's this debt that takes on many different
47:57
perspectives and and of course, uh anxiety over scarce over insufficiency
48:03
Um, you just don't have enough. You're not good enough
48:07
You you need us to pull you out of the you know, the shithole countries
48:11
You know when you when you tell a country that they're a shithole country that the people are vermin
48:16
My god, what have you told them?
48:18
And and then you turn around say but we can pull you out of this, you know, you're you're living in the dark ages
48:23
Uh, but you get you've got you just you just you don't have enough education. You don't have enough money
48:28
You don't you're overrun by crime and drugs and so on and so forth
48:33
But but we can pull you out and then divide and conquer
48:37
You know, that's so old
48:38
I mean the classic examples and in in recent history have been the colonialism of africa and latin america and the middle east by european countries
48:48
and today in the united states we've we've got uh, we've got gerrymandering and
48:53
Racial and religious discrimination ideological divide and conquer red states versus blue states
49:00
You're either for me or you're against me
49:03
And the fact of the matter is unified groups are hard to defeat
49:08
As the 13 states in the united states 13 colonies showed
49:12
Uh during the american revolution, you know, and at first they were they were all split up
49:17
They they didn't they couldn't agree on anything but when they finally came together
49:21
They were awesome
49:22
And now on the other hand if you if you've got if you can get states competing like we've like the colonial powers have done in africa
49:29
and the middle east and latin america
49:31
Then they're easily bribed manipulated suppressed one at a time
49:39
What do you
49:42
What do you make of this, uh
49:45
This relationship well, I it's it's been it's been brewing for a while now, um, but
49:53
Since your book focuses on trump, I I've got to I've got to kind of bring bring this
49:59
It doesn't necessarily focus on trump but
50:02
Day two of this second time around
50:06
He immediately started with a 500 billion dollars for artificial intelligence and the
50:14
The development of this and he couched this as sort of like an arms race us versus china
50:19
Again back to this china this this enemy that we've got to fight against and and and if we don't take the lead
50:26
In artificial intelligence they will and you know what they'll do with it. They'll enslave us all
50:33
Given trump's propensity towards griftiness and the easy money the 500 billion dollars
50:41
it's just thrown around here and then the the the
50:45
Sam altman and larry ellison not exactly the most trustworthy people i've ever seen
50:49
making this announcement
50:51
Where did you how do you feel about trump's involvement in the digital side of things this pivot to silicon valley the artificial intelligence
51:01
This whole dangerous segment
51:05
Well
51:07
He's smart in that regard, you know trump
51:11
Whatever you can say about him is he's he's street smart
51:15
You know, he grew up in the real estate business of new york city
51:19
He had to deal with the mob and with unions and and with corrupt politicians and and real estate
51:28
So on so he's he's he's street smart and and he knows that it's really important to get the
51:34
AI industries behind him and those very wealthy people like the ones that you mentioned the sam altman's and
51:42
Musts and so on be behind him
51:44
You know, I this in the last year. I've I've spoken at several bitcoin conferences now
51:50
I'm not an advocate of I'm not promoting bitcoin
51:53
But I do talk about it as being a possible alternative to the federal reserve. I go into a lot. I can see some
51:58
This is bitcoin. We're not talking about the shitcoins. We're not talking. Yes, we know this audience understands the difference
52:04
Believe me. Yes. Yeah, so so
52:08
You know and and and they all I mean there were huge supporters of trump in fact
52:13
I shared the stage in in las vegas with with his two sons
52:18
They they were speakers at the same on the same stage that I was speaking on and
52:23
And the vice president also vance
52:28
And the reason one of the big reasons is because he was such a big supporter of cryptocurrencies
52:33
before while he was running
52:35
And you know, that's just playing good politics when you come right down to it to
52:41
to recognize that uh, there's certain
52:44
the certain
52:47
aspects of of life and and
52:50
That are moving forward that are forward thinking and for the democrats
52:57
to have a
52:59
propensity to kind of have a knee-jerk reaction to such a thing with
53:04
an ai or
53:05
crypto or whatever
53:08
It's it's you know, you've got to look at all these things with a bit of skepticism
53:13
How do we control ai that all these questions that are raised are very very valid ones?
53:17
But if you want to get elected you got to be very smart about how you deal with that
53:22
And I think trump has been very smart about how he's dealt with that. He's he's he's a street fighter
53:27
Uh, and whether it's him personally or some of his advisors, I don't know, but I but it's it's a clever
53:35
political approach
53:37
Do you think that same adage of the american quality that you spoke about with regard to our
53:44
engineering firms being much better than chinese?
53:48
That that holds true for artificial intelligence as well. Is there something about being an american
53:55
software development firm that
53:57
makes your technology
54:00
inherently a little bit more detail oriented and better and then it gets copied by the chinese or
54:05
How do we how are we or is china really kind of poised to take the lead in that as well?
54:13
You know, I really have no expertise in that field. I I'm I'm speculating here, but
54:19
I would assume that it's like the car the electric car industry that the united states may may start by taking a
54:25
lead and china may copy certain aspects of it, but now china's leap way ahead of us
54:30
and and
54:32
You know, we went through this with the with the japanese back in the in the 70s where people said, oh, the japanese are just copying us
54:39
They make cheap products. They're no good. But but suddenly the japanese started moving ahead
54:44
So there's this kind of springboard operation that yes, they may copy to begin with
54:50
but then
54:52
Move forward. So I don't know. I think we'll see I don't think I don't think ai
54:58
cares
55:00
whether it's being managed by
55:04
You know
55:05
an american oligarch or a chinese oligarch
55:09
you know, but
55:11
But Charlie I want to make sure that before we we stopped this program that we we focus on some positive things
55:18
Let's do it. Yeah, let's wrap up with some positivity because there's a lot to be grateful for
55:23
And and yes, it feels like sometimes the wheels are falling off
55:26
but you go take a walk around the block
55:29
And settle yourself and and remember where we are and what we're doing. So yeah, let's talk about some positivity to wrap this up
55:36
John
55:36
Well, I I think we all ought to feel blessed to be alive at this time because we are being hit by a two by four
55:42
Fram, you know, like wake up
55:46
Yeah, like, you know, so we're destroying the climate. We've got inequality. We've got nuclear holocaust. We've got wars
55:54
Yeah, and there's these are all made by us
55:58
people
55:59
So we can change it
56:01
And and we're really looking at at at doomsday
56:04
We really are and and we know this it's not irreversible and some things may be irreversible
56:10
I mean, I the species that were probably vanished and will never come back and
56:15
And we may never have the same sort of
56:19
Economy in places like the United States that we've that we've expected to have I don't know
56:23
But the fact of the matter is we've created what what many economists refer to as a death economy
56:30
An economic system that's polluting and consuming itself toward extinction
56:34
And it's it's based based on short-term materialistic consumption
56:38
And short-term profits for corporations corporations need to make profits
56:43
But they don't need to maximize the short term and that's what these corporations are doing today
56:48
You know a good corporation
56:51
And I was taught in business school is yeah, you make some good decent profit for your investors
56:55
But you also invest in the future and you invest in your employees
56:59
You pay them good good salaries and give them retirement benefits
57:05
insurance
57:06
And you take good care of your suppliers. You don't try to beat down your suppliers. You try to help your suppliers come along
57:13
And you know, so that's that's what we call a life economy and an economic system that pays people to clean up pollution
57:20
To come up with new technologies that recycle plastics, etc.
57:24
Or etc, you know solar and wind that but they're just in their infancy
57:28
Frankly, I mean we've got tremendous areas for developing sources of energy that come from the air or water
57:35
That's the life economy an economic system that has as its goal rather than maximizing short-term profits making some short making some profits
57:43
but but investing in the future and and
57:47
Benefits the goal is to benefit all life on this planet
57:51
Absolutely, and and I think we're moving in that direction as I said that these young Chinese
57:57
Feel that way they they bought into that. I talked about this when I was there and they totally get it
58:02
And and more people I talked to I recently
58:05
lectured it at at at Princeton and the big economic forum at Princeton
58:11
University and they got it, you know, these the economists at Princeton got it and and over and over, you know, I in the last
58:20
Year I've spoken at events in in Asia
58:24
Latin America Middle East
58:27
Europe and the United States and everywhere I go
58:30
Charlie I see people are waking up that we must change
58:34
And so I think each of us as individuals
58:37
should be feel blessed that we live at this time when there is this
58:42
Awakening and we're being hit with it with we're being forced to look at it
58:46
and and I suggest to people
58:49
You know if you're if you're wondering the book that the out of the steel actually probably the majority of the book
58:57
The out of the steel is is devoted to
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What we can do to turn this around it's not a negative book at all
59:06
It it you know it tries to describe the situation we have right now. I just have a copy
59:11
I was looking to hold it up to you
59:12
But anyway, you can go to my website johnperkins.org and see it and order it there
59:18
But
59:19
A lot of that book is devoted to what we each can do and I can't go into all the detail here
59:24
But there are five basic questions that I suggest people ask themselves you want me to go into them, please
59:32
He said job didn't I?
59:35
That's the economic hit man coming out, you know
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You want to make a deal?
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Well, the first is what do I most want to do for the rest of my life?
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What gives me the greatest pleasure because if you don't do that you're not going to be successful
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You may make make money, but you won't be successful and I would answer that question by saying I want to write
59:56
I love to write charlie. I loved but Dave's not a complete day with me if I haven't had a couple of hours to write
1:00:03
And I but I have a friend who's a carpenter kind of the opposite end of the spectrum
1:00:07
It says I want to work with my hands and wood
1:00:09
second question is
1:00:11
How do I do this in a way that helps transform the death economy to a life economy that makes the world a better place
1:00:17
And I would answer by saying I'm going to write about these things
1:00:20
I'm going to write books that inspire people to get involved in that and my carpenter friend would say
1:00:25
I'm only going to use sustainable materials
1:00:27
And the third question is well, what's stopping you? What's standing in your path?
1:00:32
What's the blockage and I might say well, you know, I had an English teacher that
1:00:37
criticized my writing and and discouraged me from writing and my carpenter friend might say well
1:00:42
My clients don't want to pay the extra price for sustainable materials
1:00:47
And the fourth question is when you when you really confront
1:00:51
That that's blocking you when you don't run away from it
1:00:54
But when you really confront it, how does it change your perceptions?
1:00:57
And we realize that perceptions change reality
1:01:00
So as you change your perceptions, you change your actions
1:01:02
Your your actions when you change your actions you change reality
1:01:06
And I would answer that by saying well at some point I realized my god
1:01:10
This English teacher never published anything
1:01:13
Important or popular never made a lot of money off never never sold a lot of books
1:01:18
What does he know?
1:01:20
And I don't need to listen to him anymore. I know I'm a good writer
1:01:23
I'm going to write and my carpenter friend says well
1:01:27
I'm going to tell my clients that the extra price is not a cost
1:01:31
It's an investment in the future
1:01:34
And the fifth question is then what actions do I take right now?
1:01:38
You know, I gotta get off this this program with you and get into writing
1:01:43
And my carpenter friend has to use sustainable materials to make this frame of this whole house
1:01:48
And tell his clients that they're investing in the future
1:01:52
They're not they're not it's not a cost. It's an investment for them and their children and grandchildren
1:01:59
and I think
1:02:01
Every one of us can move
1:02:04
Can do whatever we most want to do
1:02:06
Be a podcast host or a writer or a carpenter or a plumber or a teacher or student or whatever we are
1:02:14
Whatever we do, whatever we most enjoy doing
1:02:17
As long as we we can we all do different things, but as long as we're headed for the same destination
1:02:22
We take many paths toward the same destination
1:02:24
Which is the life economy which is transforming the system
1:02:29
that's destroying us that's polluting and
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Consuming itself to toward extinction into a cyclical
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Sustainable system
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and
1:02:40
We can do it. I think we've really been on the path over the last couple of decades headed in that direction
1:02:46
We've taken a step back under the trump administration
1:02:50
But at the same time, I think that's given us the incentive to move forward much faster
1:02:56
In the near future
1:02:58
Sometimes people need a perspective changer just to get them out of their rut
1:03:05
Are you still offering tours in South America?
1:03:10
Uh, you know, the last one I did was in January. There's a documentary crew that's making a film about my life
1:03:18
Which is 90 minutes. It's just about done. It was actually having a pre-launch showing
1:03:23
next week here in my hometown and
1:03:28
I so I took this crew plus about 15 people
1:03:32
Uh on one of these trips and I I said that would be my last
1:03:36
And I don't know whether that's absolutely my last or not
1:03:39
But my partner who's Ecuadorian who's always done these trips with me. His name is daniel cooperman
1:03:45
he's still doing doing them and
1:03:48
People can go online to andy and paths
1:03:51
And make sure you get the right andy and paths with has daniel cooperman k o u p e r m a n n
1:03:59
And he does great great tours. So if people want to do that, they they can go with him
1:04:04
Excellent, but I'm gonna be speaking. I'm gonna be speaking at a lot of events
1:04:08
So if people subscribe to my newsletter and you can just put your email address in my website john perkins dot org
1:04:15
Uh, I'll be posting where I'm gonna be speaking right now. I know it's san francisco portland
1:04:21
Seattle and looking at new york and miami and chicago is in boston several other places
1:04:26
That my publisher does does these things. So if people subscribe to my newsletter
1:04:30
It'll always be at the bottom of the newsletter and I'd love to meet some of your audience
1:04:34
Yeah, I'm on the subscriber to your newsletter. I know I get them. I understand it's important
1:04:40
That's john perkins everybody
1:04:41
Go out and get his new book art of the steel trump and the economic hitman presidency go and buy his old books
1:04:48
To I mean my goodness. They change my life. They might change your life
1:04:50
If you want to connect with me macro aggressions.io is the website activist post.com is the new site
1:04:56
Thanks, everybody. We will talk to you again soon