Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #124 Conversation With an Aussie Icon (Featuring Mem Fox)

Transcript

#124 Conversation With an Aussie Icon (Featuring Mem Fox) · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Is it just comes good by rewriting, by rewriting and
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: rewriting and rewriting, putting it away between months, coming back
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: to it with.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: A clear eye and thinking I couldn't have written that.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: That is awful. How didn't I see this, this and.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: This that was wrong with that?
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: And you know the process of writing a very short
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: book can literally take two years.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: This is the Parenting in Perspective podcast. It's a happy
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: families podcast. My name is doctor Justin Coulson and I've
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: got to admit I was so excited when Mem Fox
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: agreed to be a guest on the Parenting in Perspective
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: podcast because as a writer myself, it's not every day
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: that you get to chat with one of Australia's most
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: loved and respected authors. Mem Fox grew up on a
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: mission field in Rhodesia now known as Zimbabwe, before she
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: moved to London in the mid nineteen sixties so that
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: she could study drama. And it was those formative years
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: in Africa where she saw firsthand the racial segregation that
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: divided the nations. And so this set mem on a
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: lifelong course to promote tolerance and unity through her writing
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: and her speaking and her teaching well. Mem Fox is
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: well known as a prolific writer of children's books. Her
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: classic picture book Possum Magic, which was first published in
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: nineteen eighty three, has become one of Australia's all time bestsellers.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: I think we have a couple of versions of it
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: on our shelves at home, and since then mem has
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: written around about forty books, in fact more than forty
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: books for children, as well as a number of titles
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: for adults. Mem is also well known as an educator.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: She's worked as an associate professor in Literacy Studies at
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Flinders University, and her passion for literacy has seen her
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: travel the world, urging parents and teachers to read aloud
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: to children, especially during those early years up to the
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: age of five and even beyond. So it was an
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: absolute honor and pleasure to spend some time talking with
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: Meme Fox about her life and a parenting journey, and
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: as always so I began by asking about the men
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: Fox family.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: The mem Fox family is absolutely minute. It's minute. I
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: have one husband of fifty one years, I have one
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: daughter who's not much younger than that, and I have
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: one grandson. And the grandson is ten, and as I
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: say to people, he's theaven that we live in.
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: That's it. It's just very, very small. And for somebody
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: like me with six daughters, I can't imagine how quiet
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: your home must have.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I can't, you know.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: The reverse is the situation I was, you know, every
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: time you mentioned you know, and you used to mention
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: it in your columns as well. I knew you had
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: six daughters, and I would always think about the laundry,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: and I would think about, you know, kids going to
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: ballet or soccer or whatever, and how you organize the
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: logistics of getting kids to school.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: In one car on time.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, unbelievab unbelievable. I once said to my daughter,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: you know, because I had two careers running at the
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: same time, I was a university lecturer full time and
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: I was writer four times for fourteen years. And I
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: once said to her, I think she was about fourteen.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: I said, sweetie, you know, if i'd had a second child,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: I would have build it. And she said, she said, if.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: You hadn't, I would I would have.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Beautiful. You know, all families are different, and that's why
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: the world is so interesting, because the variety of family
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: produces the variety of character produces the variety of politician, musician, football.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Player, you name it.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: You know, it's fascinating, absolutely fascinating.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: So tell me about your growing up men. You know
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: you from what I read, you grew up in Africa.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: You spent your your school years, your childhood in Africa.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: My parents were missionaries.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: I grew up on a mission, very close to a
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: big city, so it wasn't a wild at Africa or anything.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: You know. The school I went to was an all
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: white Hall girls high school.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: Before you told me about that all white or girls' school,
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: my understanding is that when you first got to Rhodesia
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: or Zimbabwe as we would call it today, that you
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: actually went to a school that was all black, you
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: were the only white child in the school.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: I did because I was on the mission and there
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: was a mission school. I mean, my dad was there
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: as a teacher trainer. That's his job was to direct
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: the teacher's college on the mission, and so of course
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: there was a school on the mission. Well why not
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: go out of your front door straight into the school,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: you know, why get into a car and go to
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: another school?
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: You know, it was ridiculous.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: So my parents just I think they knew justin I
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: think they knew it was against the law, but they
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: let me go to the school on the mission, which
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: was totally African, and there was that was against the
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: law at the time. That was against the law that
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: schools were completely so segregated.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: So what was that experience when you're the only white
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: child in an all African school.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: It wasn't an experience. It wasn't an experience because kids' notice,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: there was no difference between them and me. That's the
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: wonderful thing about kids. There was no difference. The difference
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: happened when I was taken out of that school and
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: I had to go to an all white school. And
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: I had been barefoot for a lot of my life,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: I suppose, except in deep winter. I'd been bare thought
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: and I had to wear shoes for school every day.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: And I also spoke English with an African English accent. Okay,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: so that would have been the accent of people's servants, right,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: that was the accent that I spoke English with. And
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: I was mocked and bullied and laughed at friendless. Oh,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: I've almost got tears in my eyes thinking about it.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Was terrible. It was terrible.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: I remember sitting in the school toilets at the age
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: of six, just crying my eyes out.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: So this was this was right at the very beginning
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: of your schooling.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: You were, Yes, it was. It was my second year
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: at schooling.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: So you mentioned to you got an entire year in
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: your original site.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: I did, Yeah, I did, which was a damn good
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: start because the teaching was excellent.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: And it was very strict. It was very rope learning.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: You know, there were it was crowded. There were some
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: brilliant teachers, but also you know.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Some firm teaching. It was fine. I you know, I thrived.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: I loved it.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: So how long were you in Africa? How long you
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: were were you in Rhodeso, Zimbabwe.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: I was born in Melbourne.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I went there in nineteen forty six, and I say
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: I was six months old and then I left to
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: go to drama school in London at the age of nineteen.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: Oh wow, So you spent your entire childhood.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: My entire childhood, My entire childhood was in Rhodeshayah.
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: So tremendously, tremendously racist attitudes pervaded during that time, escalating
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: to violence and murder, and I'd imagine that you must
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: have seen and heard witnessed some extraordinary things. When you
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: consider that upbringing, what impact do you think that that
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: had on you as a writer and as a parent
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: and as an educator.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: As a writer, I know that one of the things
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: that I've learned from children is that they are not
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: as racist as adults.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: On the whole.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: They're not as racist as adults. Give them a chance,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: and they're not racist. But I know that their parents
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: need re educating.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: It's not so much the.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Children who need re educating, it's the parents who need
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: re educating.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: So there are several of my.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Books, in particular book called Whoever You Are and another
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: one called Ten Little Fingers and Ten Little Toes, and
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: both of those books are deeply anti racist, deeply, But
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: nobody would pick it up and say, oh, this is
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: a deeply anti racist book.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Because if you.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Did pick up a book that was, oh, this is
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: a deeply anti racist book, you wouldn't want to read it.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I mean.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: You can't bash kid's kids loads being taught a lesson
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: in a book that's supposed to entertain them, as soon
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: as an adult tries to tell them to save the
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Whale or Save the Planets or whatever.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: That's the non fiction. That's not the.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Fiction they load being told a lesson in fiction.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: Well, it feels controlling, doesn't it. It feels like it is.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've spent many many nights laying on the bed
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: beside any of my six daughters reading. I have ten
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: little fingers and ten little toes. I've read that so
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: many times. I don't know how many of your books
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: we have on our shelves, but we have a few,
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: and a recent book of yours. I'm Australian too, you said,
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: and I quote that you wrote it in the hopes
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: that it will spark spirited discussions about australianness, create an
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: awareness of Australian immigration of the centuries, and begin to
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: calm the rising racism in Australia. So do you feel
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: like racism is on the rise in Australia.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: I think, I think I do, And I think it's
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: a matter of leadership. I think our leaders of Australia
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: at the moment, I think are so racist and so
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: cold hearted, so lacking in empathies, so unable to see
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: that people of a different race and a different religion
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: have the same hopes, you know, the same love, the
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: same sense of humor, you know, the same need for
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: food and comfort and hugs and care. You know, it's
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: a failure of leadership, and I think we are. Racism
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: goes in ways. You know, we sometimes we are more
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: racist than at other times, and and you know, our
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: treatment of refugees and so on is it's just sickening.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: You know, when you've grown up as I did, in
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: a multicultural society where you're in the minority, you are
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: actually in the minority, you do realize everybody's the same.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Every body is the same. Some people are bastards. It
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter what color they are and what religion they are,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: they're bustards. And some people are just the warmest, most
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: beautiful people you could imagine, you know, color, it's just
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: literally skin deep.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting as well, reflecting on the experience that
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: you had. You're in an all black school and having
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: the time of your life is a five year old.
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: Then as a six year old, you go to an
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: all girls, all white school and find yourself sobbing in
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: the toilets because you can't fit in. Now you're different,
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: You're still in the minority, because your accent's just a
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: little bit off, or because you've come froankly, you've come
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: from the mission rather than from the fancy suburb down
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: the street.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, Sure, when you when.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: You write your books, do you ever think to yourself,
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: how can I teach this lesson? I mean, is that
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: is that where these books have come from? Are you
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: thinking I want parents to get this and I want
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: children to get this. Is this your way of I
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: guess preaching this, this message of solidarity and unity?
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I agree that you know. I can't really answer that question.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: It's interesting because the books come from my heart. They
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: don't really come from my brain. If they were coming
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: from my brain, I would probably say.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm I want to get this lesson out.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: But it's because I think because of my love of humanity,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: I I just want I just want want in the world.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: I just want kindness.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: It's really it's not an overt thing. I mean, ten
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: little fingers and ten little choes that's written on a plane, right, okay.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: And I thought I had been weeping and thought that
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: I was never going to write death. And I've been
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: to a conference in the States. I was on my
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: way home in the States. The people who had come
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: to one session at the conference had been parents, and
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: they had babies of all colors in their arms, because
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: they were all colors themselves and all religions. And as
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: they came, if they came with babies, that of course
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: they leaned over the desk that I was signing at
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: and I, you know, their babies were very close to me.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: And you know, you can't resist putting your finger into
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: the fist of a little in a board up fists,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: They grab a hold of your finger, and yeah, you
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: feel so connected.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and in my subconscious and I was I had
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: taken the sleeping field because the only time I do
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: I knocked myself out on long flights and I was off.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: I was off with the fairies, Justine.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: That was really away.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: And this picture of these constant children coming to me
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: with their little fingers, you know, And so it was
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: just it was written out of sweetness. It was written
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: out of trying to teach them.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: It was how cute was that It's beautiful. I'm curious
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: you mentioned something and I'd like to just pick up
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: on that. You said, you're almost in tears because you
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: were thinking you would never write again. How does mem Fox,
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: the author of however many best sellers, you know, two
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: dozen best selling children's books, find herself at a point
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: where she's crying because she thinks, I just I'm not
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: going to write again. I won't write another children's book.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: Would you be comfortable sharing why you might have felt
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: like that?
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: You know, every time I write a book, I think
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: to myself, I have lost it.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, I've lost it.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: You have imposter syndrome.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Are probably because every time I start, I write rubbish,
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: you know. And but you can't improve on the blank page.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: You have to write something in order to be able
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: to improve on it. You know, You've got to add
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: something on the page. So I write and I write
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: and I write, and it's rubbish. And I'm embarrassed myself,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: and I think you couldn't have written this.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Your name's name Fox. You know you've got all these
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: books behind you. This could not be you. It could
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: not be you. And it is me. It's absolutely me.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: And it just comes good by rewriting, by rewriting and
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: rewriting and rewriting, putting it away for three months, coming
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: back to it with a clear eye and thinking, I
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: couldn't have written that.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I couldn't have written that. That is awful.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: How didn't I see this, this, and this that was
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: wrong with that, and then rewrite that and then put
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: it away. And you know the process of writing a
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: very short book can it can literally take two years.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: I mean it can take two years and you end
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: up with, you know, two hundred and sixty words. And
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: my daughter, at one of her many careers, was a journalist,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: and she used to say to me, Mark, what are
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: you doing? What will you actually tell me what you're
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: actually doing? I don't do it.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: Because journalists churn out every day, a couple of thousand
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: words a.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Day, found, found, and out it comes. You know, she
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: just couldn't get it.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: I don't think I still think she doesn't get it.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: I think most people don't get it, to tell you, honest.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: It's just, you know, it's hard, it's really hard.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, But it's also about I think there's a couple
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: of important principles to pull out of there for parents
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: in terms of their own raising of children and also
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: the things that they teach their children. You know, when
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: I reflect back on the way I used to raise
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: my children, I was doing the best that I could
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: at the time, and I thought I was I thought
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: it was okay at the time. But when I look
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: back at what I was doing, I think to myself,
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: oh my goodness, I can't believe that I would do
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: that or say that, or respond like that to one
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: of my children. And in the same way, you know,
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: you're looking at these words on the page and they're
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: the best that you had at the time, But three
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: months later, when you've taken a breather and how to look,
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: you're like, oh, oh my goodness, what was I thinking?
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: But there's a couple of important things here. The first
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: is that you've actually stopped how to think, given yourself
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: a break, and then turned around and and taken the
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: time to introspect and to analyze and to I guess,
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: go inside yourself and have a look at what you've
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: done and find ways to improve. I mean, that's a
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: critical process. But too often, I think a lot of
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: people just sort of coast along and don't necessarily do
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: that deep inner work, that deep introspection that allows them
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: to reflect and change and learn to have that fresh view.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: So I think that's tremendously important. But it's also something
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: We need to teach our children that they will keep
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: on getting better if they just have a go, put
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: it away, come back to it tomorrow or next week
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: or next month. It's such an important lesson in resilience.
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: I'd love to change tax for just a little while, ma'am,
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: and head in a different direction. Let's start with Possu Magic.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: Poss and Magic is probably the book that most people
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: know you best for. It's the book that has probably
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: sold more copies than any of your others. I think
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: five million copies of poss and Magic.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: I mean it's thirty sixty years old.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I think something it must be. It was a it's thirty.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Seven years old, justin so, you know, five million copies
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: and thirty seven years not exactly, you know, I mean
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: it's it's lovely, don't get me wrong. I'm thrilled and
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I'm proud. Yes, it's not fifteen million, it's not five
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: million overnight.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: So you've sold around five million copies of it. However,
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: this is kind of like that great JK. Rowling story
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: about Harry Potter. You rejected time and time and time
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: again over what was it like a five year period, Yes.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Nine rejections over five years.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, and now it's the best selling children's book
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: that Australia's ever seen. We talked a bit about racism,
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: but we've also been talking quite a lot about resilience.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: What was it that made you keep on going? Why
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: did you believe in ploss and magic and how did
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: you keep going and keep pushing it. You'd never had
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: any previous success with writing and publications, but what made
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: you say this book? There's something about it. I've got
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: to try again, and I've got to try again, and
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: I've got to try again.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: You know. I put it down to one thing, and
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: it's called a husband.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: It's a husband who totally believes.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: That you are the most talented thing that you know,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: has ever entered the world of children's writing, and that
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: the lack of recognition is an appalling thing that's happening
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: in the world, and one must try again because somebody eventually,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: surely will realize that my wife has a talent. I mean,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: it was like every time a rejection letter came and
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: I'd be devastated, you know, and humiliated. And even though
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: people always write nice rejection letters, but you know they're
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: not rude, and you think, oh, and you put it away,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: and you don't do anything for a year, and then
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: you send it out again and you tweak it a bit,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: you know, make it a little bit different from the
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: one that you've sent out before.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: But really it was his' go on, you know.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Or I've been in a bookshop today and I have
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: read so many bad books you know that been published
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: with children.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Yours is ten times better thaness. You need to send
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: it up.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: And so you know, And so it happened.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: In the end, it happened.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: If I myself, I don't think I would have had
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: to believe. I would have been not back so many
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: times I would have said to myself, probably listen, you know,
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: come on. Eight people have said, no, you're not really
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: going to try again, are you.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah? And this is what great parents do for their
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: kids as well, right they don't. Actually, your husband, your
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: husband didn't do it for you. You had to write the book,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: you had to send the manuscripts off and cop the
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: rejection letters. But as a I like to think of
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: parents and spouses as as hope builders. And what I'm
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: hearing at your your husband is a hope builder. He
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: said you can do this. I believe in you. You've
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: got this, let's try again. He builds you up, and.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I hope builder. That's a beautiful time. I love it. Fajastic.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I love I love the story though, of
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: his support, and not just his support, but your willingness
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: to be in partnership with him to the point where
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: you'll accept his influence and say, all right, I'll try again,
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: just to just to please you, just because I love you,
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: just because you believe in me. Because as he believes
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: in you, you begin to believe in yourself enough to
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: pluck up the courage to face rejection one more time.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly. And the funny thing is that, now, if
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: you know there's a bad review of the book, which
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: is not you know, it's not often that it happens,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: or somebody makes a rude remark about me, and you know,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: some form or other. You know, we're not on social
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: media at all, and not on any social media, but
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: you know, if a rude remark comes my way, the
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: person who is most deeply disturbed, hurt, distressed, worried, anxious, humiliated, devastated.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: I can imagine him stopping his feet in the kitchen
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: and saying, how can I say that what's their address.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: I'm going to get a baseball bat and teach their
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: letter box a lesson.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: You know, I just let it roll over you.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: It's fine, it doesn't matter, it's okay, it's all right.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: You know, it's nothing.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: But he really takes it to heart because I'm being criticized.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: He can't stand it anyway.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: The title of your autobiography in the USA edition is
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: DM M Fox. I have read all your books, even
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: the pathetic ones, so clearly you're not immune from criticism.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: This was a quote from a child's letter. I love.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: I love the pluck of this kid, dem M Fox.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: I've read all your books, even the pathetic ones.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Let's to give him some slack. I had been in
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: his school and I had made a joke against myself
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: because I had by then, I don't know, i'd written
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: twenty five books, and some of them were pathetic.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: So it was your word. He was just giving your
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: word back to you.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I said, you know, some of my books are pathetic.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Kids, I said, you know, some of them are really fantastic,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: and you know those, but I.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Hope you don't know the pathetic ones.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: I said, I'd probably and pathetic one, so it was,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: but I I love the letters so much. I just thought, no, no,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: that has to be the chitle. It's fantastic. It is fantastic.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: So you spend most of your time now, I mean
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: you worked in university, You went back to university train
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: did a whole lot of literacy learning how to teach
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: children how to read and write. If I'm a parent
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: and I want to give my children the best head start,
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: well not even a head start. I mean, we're in
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: too much of a rush, aren't we to teach our
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: children to read?
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: It?
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah, absolutely?
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: What do you think is the right time for our
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: kids to start this other than the obvious answer, which
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: is when they start providing some level of interest. There
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: are schools in particularly in Western Australia and in Tasmania
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: where they're pushing that age of first reading and first
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: writing down and down and down and down. What do
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: you think is around about the right age and what
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: advice do you give to parents when it comes to
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: helping their children fall in love with reading.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: I think the right age defends from the child. I
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: don't think there's a blanket right age. It depends on
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: where the child is. Then it's interesting, it's love of
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: books and so on. I mean, if you have a
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: child of five who's never seen a book and who
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: has never had an adult conversation, that hasn't been an
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: order like you know, eat that food and tied to
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: your room or wear yourself and if they go to bed,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: if they haven't had lots and lots of conversation, if
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: they haven't had a lot of awareness of how fantastic
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: books can be and how funny and how nice it
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: is to be with mum or Dad or grandma or
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: whoever reading a book. It's just that, you know, the
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: bonding that happens, then it's just so nice. If they
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: haven't had any of that experience and they come to
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: school and they're taught in a way that's quite you know,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: fairly boring. That's not the way that you know, lots
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: of kids learn to read. When they learn to read mostadily, well,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: of course they fail and then they fail again, and
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: then they fail again, and then they fail in life,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: and it's just can't breaking, it's absolutely heartbreaking.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: So I would say a kid is ready to learn
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: to read.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: When they're ready to learn to read, I mean, you know,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: there was a genius child a couple of doors away
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: from where I lived, who was reading at three and
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: she could read at three. Well, I mean that's incredibly unusual,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: incredibly unusual.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: But she wasn't pushed.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: It just happens. She was ready to absolutely endlessly. And
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: when I wrote Reading Magic, long after my own daughter,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: of course I'd learned to read just you know, by chance.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: I thought to myself, this child, this grandchild, had been
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: very very premature, very premature, thirty weeks and I thought,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: this learning to love books and learning to read almost
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: by accident, and it just sort of clicks with school starting.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: That's not going to work with him because his brain's
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: going to be so affected by his early birth. And
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: it was the same, it was the same within as
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: it was the normal child that was in my life.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: It was exactly the same, you know, to read. Whenyone's
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: able to learn to read, which was in around four
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: and a half five six, Suddenly we couldn't even work
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: out how it happened.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, it just was there.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: So if I was to summarize, and I think what
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: you're saying is fairly well aligned with the kinds of
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: things that I say to parents as well. There's all
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: sorts of systems out there for teaching children to read
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: and getting them ahead and getting them started early. And
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: then of course we've got other countries that start, you know,
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: at about six or seven, like the Swedish and Finish countries.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: But it seems that you and I share a lot
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: of agreement here that if a child is indicating a
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: real interest in being a part of a book, being
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: part of a story, understanding what those symbols are on
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: the page, that's the time when we start to engage
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: with them. But let them read almost not that read
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: is a quote unquote natural thing, but because it's something
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: that we've created, but it is something that they can
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: naturally fall into at the right age.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: For them, exactly at the right age for them.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: So how do you teach a child to love reading?
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: The what's the advice you give to parents so that
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: their children will love reading? Because reading and a love
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: of reading is linked with so many positive outcomes in life.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Right, we learn about absolutely absolutely the first five years
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: of life.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: You know, it's the first five years of literacy teaching,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: and I'm talking the day after kids are born.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: I do give people a day off. I think that's
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: fair enough. On the mother very good. And that's why
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: I say, what the dad is around.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Around, it's pretty tough if he's already got five children.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: But you know, there you go. So you know, from
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: because people say, oh, I've got a son and he
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: doesn't like books, you know, because they say it's because
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: he's a boy. And I say, but if you start
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: when the child is born, and the child associates being
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: with you and the love and the smell of you,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: and the seal of you, and the sound of you,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: and the spite of you and the safety of you,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: if they're associating all of that with books, then there's
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: the book and the adult almost become the one happiness.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: It's just exquisite, you know. They just and they love
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: books because they love you, and they love you because
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: they love books, and you love them because they love
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: books that you'll read. And it's just just the purest heaven.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: It's the purest seven. I mean, my grandson lives two
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: streets away from us.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: And we see a lot of.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: The every day or every single day we see him,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: and last night I have not seen him a lot
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: for two days, and he facetimed. I mean, this is like,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: you know, two streets away and he FaceTime and he said, no, no,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: I haven't really seen you properly for two days. I'm
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: really seeing you. I said, I know. I said I
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: didn't like it.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I said, I missed you a lot.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: And he said, well, will you? Can you come over?
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: But this is like ten pass day at night and
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: I said.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: All right, I said, just Monday night and Monday nights, you.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Know, decent television. But there you go. I'll come, I said,
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: I'll come.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: I said, how about I bring Peter Pan with me? Oh, Nellie,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: that would be excellent. Now, this kid is an avid
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: reader of nonfiction.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Abbot.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: You'll read adult bird books. He'll read adult books about
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: the filming of Star Wars.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: You'll read, you know, but.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Fantastically complicated books about dinosaurs that have written for university students.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: He'll read all of that.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: But he won't read.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: He's not a novel reader, which is his choice. That's fine.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: But he loves hearing novels. He loves it. And because
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: our daughter was so good at reading, when I gave
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: her Peter Pan at seven, she read it herself. So
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: I haven't read Peter Pan since I was a child,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: you know, which is like seventy years ago since I've
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: been a new reader, and I was there last night,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: and it is actually beyond description that the feeling between
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: that child and me last night when I was reading
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: that books in Peter Pan was a vehicle of our love.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: It was overpowering, It was overwhelmingly divine. When I came
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: back and told my husband, you know, I said I
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: didn't want to go, and I was sort of a
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: bit tired and sort of flash and you come back
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: just soaring because you because the love.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: That surrounds this action of reading to a child.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: Even at ten, I'm sitting here just grinning into the
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: microphone listening do you tell that story. My smile is
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: as big as it gets because because I can relate
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: so much to that. There's a handful of favorites that
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: we've got in our home, and one of them is
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: The Princess Bride by William Goldman, and you're probably familiar
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: with the film that was based on novel. And I
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: just love reading a story. You know, it's a big story,
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: but I love reading that to my six and seven
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: and eight year olds and hearing the emotion is one
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: bad thing after another happens to the character and as
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: one challenge has overcome, only for a worse one to
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: arise and to hear the children go no. But also
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: just that delight of laying on the bed with them
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: in your arms, and you know, there's something like Sam McBratney,
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: guess how much I love you? And you lay there
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: and you talk about little nut brown hair and I
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: love you to the moon and back, and you kind
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: of just sob with your kids while you're reading these books.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: And because like I remember one time that one of
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: my favorite books is a little book called Fanny's Dream.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you've heard of it or not.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: Fanny's Dream is about a lady I can't remember her name.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: She's a teenager, and there's a ball happening at the
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: mayor's house and she's outside waiting for the fairy godmother
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: to show up, but she never shows up. In Instead,
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: Heber walks up and says, Fanny, I'm looking for a wife,
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: and she says, okay, let's do it. And so they
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: get married and they raise the family and it's a
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: little bit about their trials, and the house burns down
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: and one of the twins does this and that, and
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: then being married for I don't know, maybe eight or
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: ten years. Fanny's outside on the farm picking some vegetables
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: last minute before dinner, and the fairy of Godmother shows
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: up and says, sorry, I'm late, and Fanny's got to
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: make this decision where she has to say to the
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: fairy Godmother, I don't want the dream anymore. I'm actually
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: living it. I'm living I'm living something better than I
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: could have had. And it just I'm laying there in
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: the bed and I'm reading my kids and I've got
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: tears pouring out of my eyes and it's just so
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: beautiful and meaningful. And my child, I think at the
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: time she was probably five years old, she looks at
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: me and she says, Daddy, why are you crying? I
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: completely missed all the meaning of the book, completely missed
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: the emotion, completely missed the connection of everything. Just how
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: were you crying? But isn't it There's just something magical
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: about those moments where we're.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Completely just gorgeous, you know, in a classroom, when kids
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: are calling up the walls in a classroom and something's happened,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: say in the playground, or they've got into trouble before
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: rest and they've come back after re set and there's
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: a disturbance. It's just not right. Things aren't feeling right
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: in the classroom. When the adult in the room, whoever
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: it is, starts reading something soothing and warm and rhythmic
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: and familiar, the whole the balloon just all the air
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: just comes out of the balloon, and there's serenity and
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: solace and peace and regeneration and forgiveness. It's just it
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: works in the classroom as well as working in their homes.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, I hope everybody who's listened to this
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: conversation is recommitted to reading their children this afternoon, or tonight,
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: or the very next opportunity. If I was to sum
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: up the tips that I normally give people when it
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: comes to reading, I'd love you to fill in any blanks,
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: because you've studied this, probably much deeper than me. But
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: just because we're so short on time now, I'm going
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: to go through a quick list of a handful of
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: things that I think are important. You tell me what
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: I've missed, or make any any elaborations that you think
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: should be their. Number One, I recommend that we read
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: to our children, and that we read much more slowly
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: than we want to, and the reason for that is
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: our children can't keep up. Sometimes they miss the nuance.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: It's just important to read slowly to them, don't try
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: to get through it, and don't do what my parents
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: used to do and skip a couple of pages to
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: get to the end faster because you're tired and you're
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: going to fall asleep on their bed. The second thing
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: that I would say is, to the extent possible, read on,
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: have them on your lap or have them as close
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: to you so that there's a physical connection. And then
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: the other thing that I would say is make sure
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: that they're involved in some way, they've got some sense
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: of autonomy in terms of what we're reading beyond that,
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: and get them to.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: I just want to stop you there. That's very important
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: about the autonomy, because sometimes the book the childlikes is
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: not something that the parent likes.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: But if the child wants it.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Over and over and over and over again, it wants
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: it for a reason, and we just have to swallow
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: out its like of that book or out you know,
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: you just think I can't read this book again. You
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: have to squash that down and just give the child
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: the book again and again and again and again, because
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: the familiarity with the book, the familiarity with the language,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: is what's going to help the child.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Read the book.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, Nick, can you actually expand on that a
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: little bit more as well and tell me why is
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: it that children want to hear the same story again
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: and again and again. I mean it drives parents crazy, I.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Think because children love to be safe. And if they
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: hear the same thing over and over and it never changes,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: it never changes. It's safe. You hear the same thing.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: The beginning is the same, the middle is the same,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: the ending is the same. It's the same. I am
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: say this has stayed the same. I am in a
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: safe space. It must be a deep psychological thing.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: I don't understand it.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: What I don't understand is where is the green Sheep?
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Which is the biggest seller now really than pass the magic,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: it's in much you know, it's taken to people's part
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: even more in a different way. But you know the
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: last line, you know, you go through the whole book,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: where is the green sheek? You know, where is the
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: green sheep? Where is the green sheep? Where is the
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: green sheet? And you get to the end and it says,
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: here's our green Sheep past this week. Kids know after
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: the first reading where the Green Sheep is, but they
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: still want the book over and over and over again,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: and they still get sort of agitated with excitement as
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: the pages turn and they know they're going to get
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: to the end where they find the green Sheet. And
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: I think it's just predictability that their prediction ring true
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: and they're safe.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, my kids love whereas the Green Sheep as well.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: We've read that until it's a threadbare. The last point
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: that I was going to make, and I'm sure that
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: there are many others that you could add, is that
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: our children need to see us reading. They need to
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: see us loving being immersed in our books as well.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: You know. It's I mean, I don't know how you
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: do it with six kids. I do not know how
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: you find time to see your kids, just see your
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: kids to see you reading. I don't know how you
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: do it. I know that once when I was reading
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: The Color Purple by Alice Walker, I think our daughter
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: was thirteen, and I didn't make lunch. It was a Saturday.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: I didn't have anything to do with lunch, and dinner
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: was late. The big I look, I'm just sorry. I'm
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: just sorry I cannot. I just sorry, sorry, but I.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Just no, I've just I've just got to read a chapter.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know whether it was the color purple, but
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: now she definitely knew that I like you.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: It's true.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: I think I was being to read, and I certainly
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: saw my parents reading. I certainly saw them reading. But
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: it's a tough. It's a tough thing to ask these
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: days that parents will seemed to be reading.
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, put those those phones down.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: I think it's really tough.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: Stop watching merrit at first sight. Pick up a book instead.
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: And now I wish everybody could see your face right now,
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to describe members looked at me with
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: such disdain when I mentioned, all right, member, we are
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, this has just been I wish we could
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: talk for two or three hours. There's so much more
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: I want to ask you. There's so much more that
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: we could talk about, but our time is really really
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: at an end. So to finish every podcast in this
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: parenting perspective, I ask five quick questions. Now everyone gets
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: the same ones. They're supposed to be relatively rapid fire,
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: so we don't need to go too deep. And what
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: I'm probably going to ask you about is I'm going
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: to ask you about your daughter, but in some cases,
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: because she's now a mature woman of you know, well,
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: let's just say she's more than forty or forty, and
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: she's got her own child and all that kind of thing.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: You may wish to substitute your grandson into some of
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: these questions if you wish, but I will ask in
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: relation to your daughter. Okay, So if we ask your
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: daughter her favorite thing to do with you, what would
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: she say?
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: She would say, sitting on a couch, on the same
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: couch as me, hanging out, just having time to be together,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: just hanging out.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: That is our favorite thing to do.
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the way it's supposed to be. By the
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: time they've moved out of home, fingers crossed, what's been
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: your trickiest parenting moment?
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Probably letting her go, the leaving home thing, do you know,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: because she was so excited about leaving home.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: She was so excited about leaving us. She and I
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: looking back after it happened to us, I looked back
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: on my own leading of home.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: I had no concept of the grief that that caused
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: my parents, none whatsoever. I was literally flying out out
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: of Africa, you know, off to London.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: It was amazing.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: I was so excited and what they must have gone for,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: you must have been held and letting her go was
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: without saying we're going to miss you, it's going to
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: be terrible, we're going to set a place at the
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: table by accident. We couldn't say any of that because
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: we knew how excited she was. We couldn't say we
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: are going to be heartbroken. You are our only child
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: and you're going to another country. How could you do this?
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I can really relate my oldest daughter
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: recently married. And I love the way that you use
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: the word grief, because as thrilled as we are, we're
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: so excited for the exciting adventure that she's on in
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: her Life's been married for a year and a half now,
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: But at that time, there was that letting go was
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: a genuine grieving process.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: It was an obstacle and a challenge for us to
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: overcome as a couple and as individuals in a way
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: that we could never have anticipated.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: My husband and I went to a hotel after we'd
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: seen her office. We plewed to Melbourne together. We saw
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: her off on the International slide, and we cried all
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: the way to the hotel in the taxi. And when
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: we got to the hotel and checked in, my husband,
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: who has you know obviously you know, been weeping and
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: I had been weeping, and he said, we've had a
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: family tragedy.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: You know, the poor people around you. Yeah, terrible, Go maam.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: If you could spend an hour with your daughter at
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: any age at all, let's say tomorrow afternoon she walks
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: into the living room at that age, what age would
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: you pick? And why?
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Look, I'd pick now. I mean, I'd pick now. The
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: older she is, the you know, the more of a
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: parent that she becomes, she's just loved. I would just
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: like her as she is, as she is. I would
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: not like her at seventeen. Now.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know too many parents that would ask for
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: a seventeen year old again, no matter how good life
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: has been them and how glad you are to be
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: in the moment, what are you most looking forward to
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: is either as a mum or as a grandma.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: I'm hope.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: I'm seventy four, and I've got a very bad asthma,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: a very bad athmetics. So I'm very, very frightened of
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: the coronavirus right, terrified of it. But my great hope
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: is that I live long enough to see what my
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: grandson wants to do in life. You know, there are
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: so many choices that kids have now, you know whatever,
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: I just want to know which way he goes. It's
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: because it's fascinating to see what the choices are. Maybe
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: my daughter was a politician for eight years, she was
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: a journalist for seven years. He's been a teacher on
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: and after, she's a teacher again. It's just fascinating to
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: watch people of development and their interests, and you know,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: I just want to be there.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: I just want to live long enough for that beautiful
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: and I hope, I hope, I will. I hope I will.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: My last question for you, mem is this, if you
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: could go back to Memphox as a young mum, probably
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: having one of those tough moments with maybe that seventeen
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: year old, maybe with a two year old, and you're
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: going to such little experience as a parent, what advice
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: would you give yourself?
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: Oh, look, let it rip, seriously, your block, just lose it,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: get over it, but lose it. You know, there are
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: two experiences in my life with my daughter that neither
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: has ever forgotten, and we quite often bring it up
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: in a sort of joking way. I've opened to joking
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: where she had a mug with Chloe written on it. Okay,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: and it was a precious mug that had been made
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: specifically for her, and in a fit of absolute rage
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: about something I've got no idea what it was, I
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: saw it on the kitchen floor and it smashed. And
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: although that was terrible, it was absolutely tragic and it
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: was completely wrong with me.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying it was right at all.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: You know, the explosion of rage was it was over
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: and I was devastated, and you know that we made
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: it up. But you can't hold it in all the time.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: You've got to be real. You have to be in
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: a marriage. You've got to be real.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: You've got to say and you feel otherwise it you know,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: it makes you ro inside. You just have to have
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: these well raazing, you know, rouse and then but then
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: get over it. The forgiveness has got to be fast,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: you know, the getting back to normal has got to
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: be fast. You can't resentful, you can't hold on to
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: things that make you mad. You've got to let go
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: of them. And the other time, was, and I can't
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: remember what it was. She must have been a teenager,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: but certainly, and I'm so mortified to tell you this
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: because it all sound as defining the most awful mother
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: in the world, but I did kick a hole in
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: her bedroom door. I think the door had probably been
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: closed against me in a way that was you know.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: You were trying to kick her, weren't you, Mem You
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: were trying to kick her, and she put the door
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: in the way, and you put a hole in the door.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: The door should not have been closed in the manner
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: in which it had been closed, you know, And that
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: was enraging.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: But we learned from these challenges, ma'am. And I love
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: the fact that you're not perfect, and you're.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Okay with that perfect old.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: Well. I've never had anybody give advice that we should
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: let it rip. But we've laugh I've enjoyed your laughter,
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: I've enjoyed your insights, and the conversation has just been
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: so delightful. Thank you so very much, best selling author
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: mem Fox and mother of one and grandma of one.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: Thanks so much for being so generous with your time.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Thank you being lovely. Thank you.
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: I hope you've gotten some insight into mem Fox as
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: a result of this Pairenting in Perspective podcast, two things
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: that I really found amazing were that a very short
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: book can take up to two years to write, and
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: that the best selling and multi award winning mem Fox
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: thinks that when she first puts pender paper, it's mostly rubbish.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: That's reassuring because I usually feel the same way about
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: what I write. Mind you, I haven't had nearly the
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: success that she's had. Anyway, join me, Doctor Justin Coulson
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: next time, as I talk with somebody that I've been
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: dying to talk to for so long, Professor Sarah Coyne,
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: who discovered just what playing with barbies and watching Marvel
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: movies does to our children. We're going to talk about
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: the impact of the media on children and families.
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: We're just having the wrong conversations in society right now.
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: So instead of just saying, you know, screams are bad,
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: decrease screen time and things will get better, they actually won't.
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: We have to empower and educate our youth on how
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: to use their screens in healthier ways.
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: That is Professor Sarah Coyne, my next guest on the
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: Parenting in Perspective podcast, and just before we wrap this up,
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: thank you so much to everyone who has jumped into
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts and left a review and sort of said, hey,
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: we listened to the podcast and we really love it.
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: I wanted to just quickly point out this one that
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: came through from Larissa Jade, who said bite Sized Parenting Gems.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: I'm giving this one five stars. Larissa Jade said, Doctor
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: Justin gives great advice, simple, easy to implement, and very effective.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: I never regret the time I spend listening to this podcast,
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: so very much appreciate that. If you're enjoying this podcast,
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: please keep those reviews coming. Jump onto Apple Podcasts and
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: let everybody know you think it helps get the word
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: out and they're so important for helping people to discover
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: the podcast and find out more about how to make
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: their families flourish. Also, please just tell your friends about
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: the podcast. You can actually share them from the app
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: in which you listen, and I'm sure that there are
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: plenty of people who would love to hear a podcast
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: like the one that we've shared today. If you'd like
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: more info on how I can help your family flourish,
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: particularly if you'd like to have ongoing monthly support via
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: our amazing Happy Families memberships. Please visit happyfamilies dot com
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: dot you the family, your part of it is getting
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: bigger and happier every day, or visit my Facebook page
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  Speaker 3: doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families and I was always a
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: big thank you to Justin Roylan for his work in
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: producing the podcast and making it sound just fabulous, and
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: thank you for listening to parenting in perspective. It's a
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: Happy Families podcast.