Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Spider-Man, Thor, Ironman creator accused of sex assault & Mom charged in infant girl’s death

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Spider-Man, Thor, Ironman creator accused of sex assault & Mom charged in infant girl’s death · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel
0:09
Speaker 1: one thirty two. Has anybody ever read a Marvel comic book.
0:17
Speaker 1: Marvel includes so many world famous characters. Spider Man is
0:22
Speaker 1: the Big One, Doctor Strange, the Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Hello, Daredevil,
0:28
Speaker 1: Thor Black Panther, the X Man. I mean, it goes
0:32
Speaker 1: on and on and on. All of these are creations
0:37
Speaker 1: of Marvel and who created Marvel Comics, stan Lee. I
0:42
Speaker 1: mean it, see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you
0:45
Speaker 1: for being with us. Stan Lee is an American comic
0:47
Speaker 1: book icon, a writer and editor, a film executive producer,
0:52
Speaker 1: a publisher, was editor in chief for decades of Marvel Comics.
0:58
Speaker 1: It's publisher, it's chairman the works. He is the creator,
1:04
Speaker 1: the manufacturer, or the disseminator of all of those characters
1:08
Speaker 1: that we grew up loving. Spider Man, my personal favorite, Hulk, Strange,
1:13
Speaker 1: Iron Man, Daredevil, Thoor, Black Pants, or X Men. I mean,
1:17
Speaker 1: it goes on and on, but that's not why stan
1:22
Speaker 1: Lee is in the headlines now joining me out of
1:26
Speaker 1: l A with a bombshell. Alan Duke hit me, well,
1:30
Speaker 1: I've known stand for several years, and people know I
1:33
Speaker 1: know him, and so sometimes when things happen in his world,
1:36
Speaker 1: they reach out to me. And that's what happened. I
1:39
Speaker 1: was recently uh asked for help by a young lady
1:44
Speaker 1: who was hired by a nursing company to take care
1:47
Speaker 1: of stan Lee. And it was rather disturbing text, one
1:52
Speaker 1: that could not be ignored. So I started digging into it,
1:55
Speaker 1: and what I found was there was not just one,
1:57
Speaker 1: but maybe as many as six nurses who are making
2:01
Speaker 1: allegations against Stanley about the first text that you said
2:05
Speaker 1: was very disturbing. What's the content? It's high Alan, maybe
2:09
Speaker 1: you can help me stan Lee. And then she named
2:13
Speaker 1: UH an employee of Stanley tried to rape me. Uh.
2:17
Speaker 1: The employee ripped off my shirt and grabbed my breast.
2:20
Speaker 1: He said he would go to he would kill me
2:22
Speaker 1: if I go to police. That was the disturbing text.
2:26
Speaker 1: We've not substantiated that this actually happened. In another communication,
2:30
Speaker 1: she indicated that she has actual phone video of some
2:33
Speaker 1: of the some of the things to cooperate this. But
2:36
Speaker 1: the bottom line is this unleashed a whole investigation that's
2:40
Speaker 1: going on, and I will say it is not a
2:42
Speaker 1: police investigation. Okay, wait, wait, wait wait, wait, wait, that's
2:47
Speaker 1: a problem right there. If somebody has been raped or
2:50
Speaker 1: assaulted in some other way and they haven't gone to police,
2:53
Speaker 1: that's the kiss of death right there. It's it's civil especially,
2:58
Speaker 1: you know, when you're climbing this about somebody's super rich.
3:01
Speaker 1: Alexis to rest check joining me with Radar online dot Com, Alexis,
3:05
Speaker 1: thanks for being with us. What do you know? It
3:06
Speaker 1: wasn't just one woman once this this one woman came forward.
3:10
Speaker 1: I believe multiple women. I believe it's six more women
3:13
Speaker 1: have come forward and say that said that Stanley, who
3:16
Speaker 1: is years old, has okay, wait wait wait wait wait.
3:23
Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall l a psycho analyst, did you just
3:28
Speaker 1: hear Alexis torres Check say that this man is nine
3:32
Speaker 1: years old? And is I heard accused? I mean, how
3:35
Speaker 1: is that physically possible? Well, it just comes. I haven't
3:40
Speaker 1: I had enough to deal with this right now. I
3:42
Speaker 1: gotta go get jacked up on a cup of coffee.
3:45
Speaker 1: What now five years old? But Nancy, rape is about power,
3:51
Speaker 1: not about erections. It really is, and it underscores that
3:55
Speaker 1: not only if these allegations are true, not only has
3:58
Speaker 1: Stanley been powerful in maybe appropriate areas and many aspects
4:03
Speaker 1: of his life. But now he's been attempting to have
4:07
Speaker 1: power over these four victims in pathological, maladaptive ways. And
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Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if more women come forward, and
4:17
Speaker 1: if we learned that this has been going on for
4:19
Speaker 1: a long long time. But you know sex perpetrators, they
4:24
Speaker 1: they perpetrate more frequently as they get older, not less frequently.
4:28
Speaker 1: The most common group would be men who mo less
4:31
Speaker 1: little boys. I think on average there's something shocking like, uh,
4:36
Speaker 1: five hundred and forty four acts against a hundred and
4:40
Speaker 1: eighty seven victims over the course of their lifetime. I
4:43
Speaker 1: remember reading that stat once and I've never been able
4:46
Speaker 1: to get get rid of that stat out of my
4:48
Speaker 1: mind because it makes me realize with it with these
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Speaker 1: power crimes, that the person who commits them commits them
4:56
Speaker 1: quite frequently. To Alexis to rest writer online dot Com
5:00
Speaker 1: investigative reporter journalist, Alexis, how did he get access to
5:05
Speaker 1: all of these nurses? And these are benified nurses. So,
5:08
Speaker 1: as I said, he is years old, so he has
5:11
Speaker 1: had care givers around him for the last year or so.
5:15
Speaker 1: His wife passed away. He's needed some care. He obviously
5:18
Speaker 1: is still very mentally there. He has been working NonStop
5:23
Speaker 1: his whole life. The movie Black Panther is coming out
5:25
Speaker 1: this year. A lot going on for him. But he
5:28
Speaker 1: has had nurses around him. We call them caregivers in
5:32
Speaker 1: my house for my father in law. So um, but
5:34
Speaker 1: you could call them. So he's had these nurses in
5:36
Speaker 1: there taking care of him. So are these these and
5:39
Speaker 1: their women that are employed by him? He has hired
5:41
Speaker 1: them to take care of him. Oh, I thought they
5:44
Speaker 1: were there to take care of his wife, Alexis Nancy.
5:47
Speaker 1: They were hired actually pretty much the day his wife
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Speaker 1: died back in July. This is what's interesting to me,
5:53
Speaker 1: as the nursing service was brought in because people were
5:58
Speaker 1: afraid of how he was going to be doing in
6:00
Speaker 1: the wake of his wife, who was also nine when
6:03
Speaker 1: she died of cancer in July. So they were brought
6:05
Speaker 1: in after she passes away. Okay, yes, Alan, how many
6:10
Speaker 1: women are we talking about? I have documentation of as
6:13
Speaker 1: many as six, and as Alexa said, or I think
6:17
Speaker 1: it was Dr Bethany suggested more could come forward. But
6:21
Speaker 1: these were women that were giving twenty four hour around
6:23
Speaker 1: the clock care and in one of the communications with
6:28
Speaker 1: one of the nurses. She writes that that f as
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Speaker 1: this incident happened, this attempted alleged attempted rape happened, that
6:38
Speaker 1: stand thought it was funny that he was laughing. And
6:41
Speaker 1: I can tell you from sources who know him, he's
6:44
Speaker 1: not taking even though he knows that the allegations are
6:47
Speaker 1: being made public. He's not taking seriously because keep in
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Speaker 1: minding and Dr Bethany, you can talk to this. This
6:52
Speaker 1: is a year old man who's rich as you can imagine.
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Speaker 1: I mean, his movies have sold more than twenty bill
7:00
Speaker 1: million dollars in tickets, so he doesn't have a care
7:02
Speaker 1: in the world. His wife died and uh, frankly, Um,
7:07
Speaker 1: he's not taking this. I mean, his lawyers are, but
7:10
Speaker 1: he's he doesn't seem extremely concerned about what's going on.
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Speaker 1: To Karen Smith joining me forensic expert Karen Um. First,
7:19
Speaker 1: first of all, Alan, in my correct none of the
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Speaker 1: women went to the police. None of the women have
7:23
Speaker 1: gone to the police. In two instances. One of the
7:26
Speaker 1: women said that she was threatened by this employee if
7:30
Speaker 1: she went to the police, that she would be harmed,
7:32
Speaker 1: and that is why she is being very careful, but
7:35
Speaker 1: the it's it's out now and there's um there's gonna
7:39
Speaker 1: be a lot of discussion about it, so maybe they'll
7:42
Speaker 1: feel more comfortable and going to the police. Are they
7:45
Speaker 1: all US citizens, the ones that I've taught to, I
7:49
Speaker 1: certainly believe that they are. This was This was not
7:52
Speaker 1: your run of the mill nursing company. This was like
7:54
Speaker 1: Serve bel Air, Beverly Hills and that area. This is
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Speaker 1: the the are seeing service to the rich and famous,
8:02
Speaker 1: if you will, I don't give a flying fig where
8:06
Speaker 1: it was. If they are US citizens, then they most
8:09
Speaker 1: likely know about our jurisprison system and how to call
8:14
Speaker 1: nine one one and what to do and what concerns
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Speaker 1: me Karen Smith. The reason I may sound irritated right
8:22
Speaker 1: now is that by not going to police, there's not
8:26
Speaker 1: going to be any forensic evidence if these allegations are true.
8:32
Speaker 1: If they're true, this guy could very easily walk Scott
8:35
Speaker 1: free because they did not come forward. What does that
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Speaker 1: mean to me? As a victims rights advocate? That means
8:41
Speaker 1: there may very well be more victims because he hasn't
8:46
Speaker 1: been stopped. I know the drama and the trauma of
8:50
Speaker 1: coming forward. I understand believe me. But by not coming forward,
8:55
Speaker 1: you make it possible for there to be other victims. Karen,
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Speaker 1: Why is this so devastating to the case because of
9:05
Speaker 1: time We're dealing with time frames here now. I have
9:08
Speaker 1: no idea if any of these victims um saved their
9:13
Speaker 1: clothing or saved any evidence that may have. I'm pretty
9:17
Speaker 1: sure that was just that. That's actually where my mind
9:21
Speaker 1: went when I thought about it. And you know what,
9:23
Speaker 1: we don't know they may have. You know, if if
9:25
Speaker 1: the one who alleges that that he ripped off her
9:27
Speaker 1: clothing and her bra and and groped her breast, what
9:30
Speaker 1: if what if she still has that bra? There's touch DNA, now,
9:32
Speaker 1: Nancy be extremely critical in this case. Touch d n
9:41
Speaker 1: A is skin cells. When when we touch objects, are
9:44
Speaker 1: skin cells and sweat are left behind on objects. And
9:49
Speaker 1: technology has gotten so great now that we can get
9:52
Speaker 1: those skin cells from a perpetrator off of clothing and
9:55
Speaker 1: other items. So if that is a possibility and the
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Speaker 1: DN analysts can find those skin cells of either one
10:02
Speaker 1: of these men, uh, that fells big trouble, Big trouble.
10:07
Speaker 1: What do we know about that? Alan? Are you sure
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Speaker 1: that none of them went forward? None of them have
10:13
Speaker 1: gone to the police. Several of them have gone to lawyers,
10:16
Speaker 1: and the lawyers have been exchanging letters with stan Lee's lawyers.
10:21
Speaker 1: Now it would be the Los Angeles Police Department for
10:25
Speaker 1: their particular jurisdiction, and I'm not aware of anyone who's
10:28
Speaker 1: gone to them at this point. As as this, one
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Speaker 1: nurse told me she's afraid too, because she says she's
10:34
Speaker 1: been threatened with her life. And the person, not Stanley,
10:38
Speaker 1: but the person who made the allegation. I do have
10:40
Speaker 1: copies of his his criminal record which shows he's actually
10:43
Speaker 1: have has convictions for violence. What do we know about
10:46
Speaker 1: any response from Leigh himself? His lawyer did send a letter,
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Speaker 1: UH calling the acknowledging first of all, that there was
10:56
Speaker 1: a series of allegations and he said their faults and
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Speaker 1: afamatory and suggested that that that it was just going
11:03
Speaker 1: to die out. However, I happen to know that that's
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Speaker 1: not going to happen because we have some very high
11:09
Speaker 1: profile lawyers in Los Angeles UH that are now involved
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Speaker 1: in it. So he claims that all of these accusations
11:16
Speaker 1: are false and defamatory. Is that he was speaking or
11:20
Speaker 1: his lawyers that that is that is his lawyer uh
11:24
Speaker 1: speaking in an email when asked to confirm and comment,
11:29
Speaker 1: I will tell you that I know from sources who
11:31
Speaker 1: are familiar with it. As I said earlier, that stan
11:35
Speaker 1: Lee himself, um is not taking this very seriously. He's
11:40
Speaker 1: ninety five years old, and I know after his wife,
11:43
Speaker 1: who was actually someone I knew quite well, Joan Lee,
11:47
Speaker 1: when she passed away from cancer in July, it was devastating.
11:52
Speaker 1: And maybe Dr Bethany can say, what effect when you're
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Speaker 1: ninety five years old, you've been with somebody since like
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Speaker 1: n two, and she's gone from your world? What happens
12:02
Speaker 1: to a ninety five year old man who's got his health. Well,
12:05
Speaker 1: it's a very good question, But I don't becoming a
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Speaker 1: sex predator as one of those, But go ahead, that's
12:12
Speaker 1: just me. Well, I would agree. I think he just
12:15
Speaker 1: had more access now that his wife is not around.
12:19
Speaker 1: I don't doubt that he loved his wife and was
12:21
Speaker 1: very attached to her, But being a rapist and being
12:24
Speaker 1: in love with your wife are on two separate planes.
12:27
Speaker 1: One has nothing to do with the other when you're
12:30
Speaker 1: a sex predator, and so I think, unfortunately he may
12:34
Speaker 1: have had access in other ways before she died. Maybe
12:37
Speaker 1: when he went to comic Con, maybe this so called
12:40
Speaker 1: bodyguard now turn manager, ex convict, you know, procured women
12:45
Speaker 1: for him, and so the offending pattern just took a
12:49
Speaker 1: different form. But I want to speak to the fact
12:51
Speaker 1: that he's laughing about these charges and he thinks it's
12:54
Speaker 1: not a big deal. We have to remember rapist typologies,
12:57
Speaker 1: meaning there are three different types of rapists, and one
13:00
Speaker 1: type of rapists is the man who feels that the
13:03
Speaker 1: victim wants him and imagines that she wanted it all along.
13:07
Speaker 1: And that's a part of how how the rape is
13:10
Speaker 1: carried out with this internal dialogue or narrative or justification
13:15
Speaker 1: of well, she wanted it all along anyway. So if
13:18
Speaker 1: he falls into that that category, I'm not surprised that
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Speaker 1: he's not taking this seriously. Back to Alexi's to red
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Speaker 1: Chuck writer online dot com. Did the women quit or
13:31
Speaker 1: did they keep working for him? And what about the
13:35
Speaker 1: nurse agency? Don't they ask why do you want to
13:38
Speaker 1: leave the job, but yet they keep sending nurse after
13:40
Speaker 1: nurse after nurse. If these allegations are true, alexis yes,
13:44
Speaker 1: if they can answer that Nancy, the the nursing care
13:48
Speaker 1: service was was quit. The woman who owns it uh
13:53
Speaker 1: left quit. However, I do have a text communication from
13:57
Speaker 1: her to someone else, actually one of them, saying that
14:01
Speaker 1: one of the alleged victims saying that every nurse she
14:04
Speaker 1: ever said over there was assaulted. She says that now
14:09
Speaker 1: but this this woman also claims that the owner claims
14:12
Speaker 1: that she was assaulted. What I'm told by people who
14:17
Speaker 1: were there at the time is that it was routine
14:21
Speaker 1: for Stanley to walk around his house naked, and he
14:25
Speaker 1: would say things that were inappropriate, like why don't you
14:29
Speaker 1: come and give me a shower, and blah blah that
14:32
Speaker 1: kind of thing, and inappropriate things walking around the house naked.
14:35
Speaker 1: I don't know what legal implications there are when you're
14:37
Speaker 1: walking around your own house naked in front of a nurse, though.
14:41
Speaker 1: I guess when you expose yourself to someone that in
14:43
Speaker 1: your employee and they're there and you know that they're there,
14:47
Speaker 1: that that would be a crime. So where does it
14:49
Speaker 1: stand now? Alexis torres Chart reporting with rinar online dot com,
14:53
Speaker 1: The legal ball has started rolling. These women have hired lawyers,
14:58
Speaker 1: and these lawyers have decided to go after stan Lee.
15:01
Speaker 1: They have started writing letters, They've contacted stan Lee's attorneys
15:05
Speaker 1: and they are seeking justice through lawyers. And as we said,
15:09
Speaker 1: they have not spoken to the police yet. It's not
15:11
Speaker 1: to say that they weren't in the future, but as
15:13
Speaker 1: of now, it is not a police investigation. It's just
15:15
Speaker 1: lawyers speaking on behalf of the women that claim that
15:19
Speaker 1: they were assaulted. Well, maybe I'm crazy, Um, that's certainly
15:24
Speaker 1: been alleged in the past. But the first thing I
15:26
Speaker 1: would do is the right thing, and that would be
15:28
Speaker 1: to get my client down to the police station to
15:30
Speaker 1: give a statement. Period. Now that statement is going to
15:34
Speaker 1: be open for the lawyers, civil lawyers for Lee to get.
15:41
Speaker 1: He'll have their statements. But if this is true, their
15:44
Speaker 1: statements are not going to change. If there's more than
15:48
Speaker 1: one of them, they have strength in numbers. If these
15:51
Speaker 1: allegations are true, there's still time for a police investigation.
15:57
Speaker 1: The statute of limitations is far from over. Let me
16:02
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Speaker 1: Thank you. A tiny infant, just two weeks old goes
18:04
Speaker 1: missing from the family home. What happened? This little baby
18:09
Speaker 1: is absolutely precious and when I look at her in
18:13
Speaker 1: her little onesie and a little pink hat, it is
18:17
Speaker 1: breaking my heart. First of all, take a listen to
18:22
Speaker 1: the nine one one call reporting little Khaliah McNab gone. Eaton, Kenny,
18:29
Speaker 1: I want to dress the emergency. I just woke up.
18:32
Speaker 1: I don't let me up on the couch. Um. I
18:34
Speaker 1: have a two year old and I have a two
18:37
Speaker 1: week old. And my two week old is not in
18:40
Speaker 1: her sleep on her past he's on the floor. She's
18:43
Speaker 1: she's not in a sleeper, she's not here. I've looked everyone,
18:47
Speaker 1: I looked under clothes and everything. What's your addressing highway? Yes,
18:56
Speaker 1: thirty one. Do you think somebody took her? Ma'am? My
19:02
Speaker 1: child said, My two year old said, she's gone, and
19:06
Speaker 1: I want everyone in the house, so I don't. I
19:08
Speaker 1: don't know another possibility. What LT number are you at?
19:11
Speaker 1: Thirty one? Okay, and he said you were sleeping. Woke
19:17
Speaker 1: up and she was gone, Yes, my my my two
19:20
Speaker 1: year old came worked me here. That's that's thatch was
19:24
Speaker 1: on account. So how old is she? Ma'am? Two weeks old? Okay?
19:39
Speaker 1: Who else would have come in your house? I mean,
19:44
Speaker 1: as far as I know, nobody would have came in
19:46
Speaker 1: my house. My two roads has papa, but I called
19:50
Speaker 1: my dad and I called my grandparents, so they don't
19:52
Speaker 1: have as my dad's on the way her. Now, okay, ah,
20:03
Speaker 1: all right, how long have you even sleep? Um? The
20:07
Speaker 1: last time I look up with her was around I
20:12
Speaker 1: guess five maybe, okay, so you were asleep since five o'clock.
20:23
Speaker 1: I didn't even mean sleep on the house down for her?
20:26
Speaker 1: After dealing with her, all right, joining me right now,
20:28
Speaker 1: Crime Online investigative reporter and journalists Lee Egantly, let's go
20:33
Speaker 1: back to the time the baby went missing. What do
20:36
Speaker 1: we know about the disappearance? The baby's mother, her name
20:40
Speaker 1: is Courtney Dell. She called nine one one to report
20:44
Speaker 1: the infant, missy. It was around a six minute calls.
20:47
Speaker 1: She said that her two year old child told her
20:51
Speaker 1: that the baby was missing, that her blanket was missing,
20:54
Speaker 1: with her and nothing else, and she had no clue
20:57
Speaker 1: or the invocat they had of her grandparents. Her grandfather
21:02
Speaker 1: lives a couple of houses down from them, and he
21:06
Speaker 1: obviously was close with the children, and she said that
21:08
Speaker 1: he did not have the children. He did not have
21:10
Speaker 1: the baby. Her boyfriend, I believe, I don't think it
21:13
Speaker 1: was her husband's boyfriend didn't have the baby. Let's talk
21:16
Speaker 1: about the home as she will caught lawyer and child
21:19
Speaker 1: advocate joining me Ashley. Long story short, it's a very
21:24
Speaker 1: small home. Let's talk about the possibility of someone entering
21:31
Speaker 1: the home and taking the baby. It's very very small. Yes,
21:34
Speaker 1: the home is very small, and she could literally she
21:38
Speaker 1: and the father were asleep on the couches when she
21:41
Speaker 1: woke up, and the two year old came in, and
21:44
Speaker 1: the two year old in the room where the two
21:46
Speaker 1: year old and baby were sleeping right next to the couches.
21:49
Speaker 1: So a very small floor plan of different rooms. Let
21:52
Speaker 1: me understand, is the baby the missing baby Khalia? Is
21:56
Speaker 1: the baby in the same room with them, in a
21:58
Speaker 1: sleeper in the two year old room in the next
22:02
Speaker 1: room with the two year old, and the mother and
22:04
Speaker 1: father were sleeping on the couch you know, Karen Smith
22:08
Speaker 1: joining me, a forensic expert not across the country. Karen,
22:12
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Karen, I would like
22:16
Speaker 1: to say immediately, because you're always looking at it just
22:20
Speaker 1: feels better when you know someone is quote responsible, instead
22:24
Speaker 1: of a mystery that doesn't make sense and you can't
22:26
Speaker 1: fit the puzzle together that drives me crazy. Karen. The
22:31
Speaker 1: reality is, I remember, and this has happened before. I
22:35
Speaker 1: don't take any sleep sedative, no uh, claraton, no, no. Nothing.
22:41
Speaker 1: At night on Christmas Eve night I was in I
22:45
Speaker 1: fell asleep in the room with the twins. Okay. I
22:50
Speaker 1: started waking up around four o'clock in the morning because
22:52
Speaker 1: I heard my son, you know, moving around and looking
22:55
Speaker 1: at the clock. I could see what he was doing.
22:57
Speaker 1: I went back to sleep. I woke up Karen Smith,
23:00
Speaker 1: with both of them standing right in front of me
23:04
Speaker 1: in the dark, at like six o'clock in the morning. Mom, Mom,
23:09
Speaker 1: I mean they had apparently been trying to wake me up,
23:11
Speaker 1: so it can happen. I was under the influence of
23:15
Speaker 1: nothing but exhaustion, Karen Smith. So it pains me to
23:20
Speaker 1: say it, but I think that it is possible for
23:22
Speaker 1: someone to come in the home and take an infant
23:26
Speaker 1: if the infant is asleep, without making any sound absolutely nasty.
23:30
Speaker 1: It is. And I've had cases where that has happened,
23:33
Speaker 1: and I think, back it up, Back it up, Karen Smith. Okay,
23:38
Speaker 1: I want to talk about what you just said. You
23:40
Speaker 1: said you've had cases where it happened. Frankly, every time
23:44
Speaker 1: I have investigated a case like that, that's not what happened,
23:48
Speaker 1: except for a few rare instances where a stranger did
23:54
Speaker 1: come in the home unheard and takes a child. And
23:57
Speaker 1: a perfect example is Polly Class, Mark Class's daughter. They
24:01
Speaker 1: were having a spin the Night party for Pete's sake,
24:04
Speaker 1: Karen Smith, when a bunch of little girls there and
24:07
Speaker 1: someone comes in the home, takes Polly, kidnaps her, molests her,
24:12
Speaker 1: and kills her. It did happen. The mom was home,
24:16
Speaker 1: nobody heard a thing. It does happen. But when you
24:19
Speaker 1: say you've experienced that, you have seriously tell me about it,
24:24
Speaker 1: because I've had very few cases where that really happened. Yes, Yes,
24:29
Speaker 1: it was a young girl and the uh, the perpetrator
24:33
Speaker 1: came in through a window and took the young girl.
24:36
Speaker 1: I believe she was six or seven months old and
24:39
Speaker 1: ended up taking her because I think he was the
24:43
Speaker 1: father and the mother was not giving him any visitation, right,
24:47
Speaker 1: so he came in in the middle of the night unseen.
24:49
Speaker 1: The baby was unharmed. This was not a murder case,
24:52
Speaker 1: but it does happen. I think we've all been in
24:54
Speaker 1: a position where we've just been so exhausted, so tired
24:58
Speaker 1: just from day in and day out at ativities that
25:00
Speaker 1: you're sleeping so hard you don't hear a thing, especially
25:03
Speaker 1: if it's a larger house. This was not a large house.
25:07
Speaker 1: This was a very small space, so that does come
25:10
Speaker 1: in time. I mean really small, really small, you know.
25:14
Speaker 1: To Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalysts joining me out of l A,
25:20
Speaker 1: Dr Bethany, I want to think this through. It's just
25:23
Speaker 1: hard for me to believe that you don't hear a thing.
25:25
Speaker 1: But again, I wasn't even in a different room on Christmas.
25:30
Speaker 1: I was in the same room with them. I didn't
25:33
Speaker 1: hear a thing. And it's a holiday, so you've probably
25:36
Speaker 1: haven't been up night after night wrapping packages making sure
25:40
Speaker 1: it's the perfect occasion for them. Are you serious? You
25:43
Speaker 1: stay await till midnight? Stay await till midnight watching murder Mysteries?
25:46
Speaker 1: Is that wrong? There too? Now there they can turn
25:52
Speaker 1: away at the point of impact now and they never
25:55
Speaker 1: see Okay, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, we're up all
25:57
Speaker 1: right watching murder Mysteries. Go ahead. Okay. So, so in
26:01
Speaker 1: terms of this little to two week old who goes missing,
26:04
Speaker 1: one of my thoughts is were there any non custodial
26:07
Speaker 1: caretakers in the community, In other words, anybody who was
26:12
Speaker 1: preoccupied with that child, wanted access to that child, maybe
26:17
Speaker 1: a grandparent who was wanting to adopt. Because often when
26:21
Speaker 1: when very young children are babies goes missing, well that
26:24
Speaker 1: almost all abductions of children under the age of five
26:28
Speaker 1: or at the hands of non custodial caretakers. So I
26:31
Speaker 1: would look at that first, that possibility. And then you said,
26:34
Speaker 1: it's a very small house, like a little teeny tiny house,
26:37
Speaker 1: and the grandfather lives two doors up. So I'm going
26:40
Speaker 1: to assume that this is a neighborhood where everybody knows
26:43
Speaker 1: each other, kids are sort of playing out and about
26:47
Speaker 1: was there a predator in that neighborhood or a pedophile
26:49
Speaker 1: who was aware of the fact that there's a newborn.
26:53
Speaker 1: I would want to, you know, start closest to the
26:55
Speaker 1: house and look, you know, uh, examine in concentric circles
27:00
Speaker 1: further and further from the house to see if there's
27:03
Speaker 1: somebody who may have been preoccupied with the family. And
27:06
Speaker 1: then the third possibility, Nancy, you know, we've we've covered
27:09
Speaker 1: these these abductions of children so many times on your
27:12
Speaker 1: TV show. The child is almost always found within a
27:16
Speaker 1: mile of the home. So I'm assuming that if there
27:20
Speaker 1: was a murder abduction, that is not going to be
27:22
Speaker 1: hard to locate the body. Well, you're following along exactly
27:26
Speaker 1: with police thinking. They immediately looked at the grandfather and
27:31
Speaker 1: other relatives who live extremely nearby. They were ruled out
27:36
Speaker 1: those parents. Those grandparents and relatives get to seek lee
27:39
Speaker 1: whenever they want to. Um, she can spend the night there.
27:44
Speaker 1: The whole thing. No no barriers whatsoever to the grandparents.
27:48
Speaker 1: And I remember growing up in a tiny house about
27:52
Speaker 1: this size across the straight from my grandmother, and she
27:57
Speaker 1: took care of us during the day, Lucy while my
28:01
Speaker 1: mom and dad worked, So I get it. There was
28:06
Speaker 1: no barrier with the grandparents seeing them. They were ruled
28:09
Speaker 1: out very very quickly. In the last hours, there has
28:14
Speaker 1: been a stunning development in the case. To Lee Egan
28:18
Speaker 1: Crime Online reporter, what is the very latest, Lee Courtney Bell,
28:23
Speaker 1: the mother was arrested for second degree murder, second degree
28:28
Speaker 1: cruelty to children, and contributing to the diplomation of a minor.
28:34
Speaker 1: And the baby's father, Christopher McNabb, was already in jail
28:38
Speaker 1: on first degree murder charges. So now they are both
28:41
Speaker 1: behind bars for the baby's death. A grand jury indicts
28:47
Speaker 1: the father of baby Khalia. The mother has now been
28:53
Speaker 1: charged with second degree murder. And it is just as
28:59
Speaker 1: police first suspect, you start at the very center, the
29:04
Speaker 1: center who's closest to the victim, As Dr Bethany Marshall
29:09
Speaker 1: was pointing out to Ashley Wilcot, it's when I listen
29:15
Speaker 1: to her on the phone. You know, it was just
29:18
Speaker 1: a few days ago that she called in the baby missing,
29:22
Speaker 1: a panicked mom telling one about her child disappearing gone,
29:29
Speaker 1: sounding distressed. Um just two weeks old, baby Khlia vanishes
29:35
Speaker 1: into thin air. From what we know, at the time
29:39
Speaker 1: of that call, when the mom was asking for help
29:44
Speaker 1: the baby, the newborn baby was already dead. Ashley Wilcot,
29:51
Speaker 1: I get and let me point out one of the
29:53
Speaker 1: statements that she made in that initial one call that
29:56
Speaker 1: you've played. She said, I have clothes and too, but
30:00
Speaker 1: I've looked all in them and she's not here now.
30:03
Speaker 1: To me, that's something law enforcement probably noted and said, okay,
30:08
Speaker 1: we need to continue investigating because that's a weird statement.
30:11
Speaker 1: Why would your two week old accidentally or purposely be
30:16
Speaker 1: in clothes and totes. It doesn't make sense. So she
30:19
Speaker 1: did sound panicked, but she's saying some things that don't
30:22
Speaker 1: make sense to me as a mother who cannot locate
30:26
Speaker 1: her two week old. Infot she knew that baby was dead. Well,
30:30
Speaker 1: what it hit me at the very beginning, and I'm
30:32
Speaker 1: gonna go to the shrink on this, Dr Bethany? Is
30:35
Speaker 1: that wrong to call people a shrink? It's it's okay.
30:38
Speaker 1: I think that you've put it in our modern day lexicon,
30:41
Speaker 1: so it's fair to today. Okay. The last thing I
30:44
Speaker 1: want to do is hurt your feelings. Dr Bethany Marshall
30:47
Speaker 1: l a psychoanalyst. When you listen to her one she
30:52
Speaker 1: she sounds so calm, extremely calm, and I noticed her
30:58
Speaker 1: hedging about, well could someone else have taken her? And
31:03
Speaker 1: she never came out and said no, nothing like that,
31:06
Speaker 1: or yes, somebody took her. Um. There was very calm,
31:12
Speaker 1: very methodical, almost as if she was reading a script.
31:16
Speaker 1: And believe me or is my dad used to say,
31:18
Speaker 1: believe you me? That nine one one call is going
31:21
Speaker 1: to be played over and over in the courtroom. Every
31:25
Speaker 1: line is going to be dissected, and they're gonna listen
31:28
Speaker 1: to it over and over because they'll have it in
31:30
Speaker 1: the jury deliberation room. If it goes that for far
31:34
Speaker 1: little Khalia, this newborn baby girl, how much would that
31:37
Speaker 1: go for on the black market? Um? What sixties seventy
31:41
Speaker 1: maybe a hundred thousand dollars to a rich family that
31:44
Speaker 1: wanted a baby like Kaliah. Sheould have a different name,
31:48
Speaker 1: different wardrobe, different circumstances, and about uh forty eight hours,
31:54
Speaker 1: she could be across the country. But no, this baby
31:59
Speaker 1: was ordered with blood forced trauma to her tiny head.
32:05
Speaker 1: She hadn't even reached six pounds by the time. She's
32:08
Speaker 1: a homicide victim. Dr Bethany she was so she's cool
32:12
Speaker 1: as a cucumber on nine one one, And Nancy, not
32:16
Speaker 1: only that, but she keeps she's so evasive. So I'm
32:20
Speaker 1: listening to this one call and a few things jump
32:23
Speaker 1: out at me. One is, I love your use of
32:25
Speaker 1: the term hedging. She's hedging, she's evasive. There's so many
32:28
Speaker 1: story holes. She does not fill in the picture from
32:31
Speaker 1: the one one operator as to where the father of
32:34
Speaker 1: the baby is, so it's very that aspect is vague.
32:38
Speaker 1: And then a third thing stands out. She keeps saying
32:41
Speaker 1: that the two year old says the baby is gone. Now,
32:45
Speaker 1: that to me is significant because not only is she
32:48
Speaker 1: sort of shuffling the blame off onto the two year old,
32:52
Speaker 1: but she's treating the two year old as if the
32:54
Speaker 1: two year old is a caretake caretaker of some sort,
32:57
Speaker 1: as if the two year old is older develop mentally
33:00
Speaker 1: than she really is. And this is what we see
33:02
Speaker 1: in abuse of households, is that the parent blurs the
33:07
Speaker 1: line between what it means to be an adult and
33:10
Speaker 1: what it means to be a child. In other words,
33:12
Speaker 1: they may beat the five year old because the five
33:15
Speaker 1: year old hasn't ironed all the clothing, see, so they
33:17
Speaker 1: give the child tasks that are developmentally ahead of where
33:21
Speaker 1: the child is. So already she's placing on the shoulders
33:24
Speaker 1: of the two year old that the two year old
33:27
Speaker 1: has reported that the baby's missing. Now, I do understand
33:30
Speaker 1: that the two year old and the baby were sharing
33:33
Speaker 1: a room, but nonetheless, um, that to me is a
33:37
Speaker 1: very distinctive feature of the one call. You know. Uh,
33:41
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the mother and the father, and of
33:45
Speaker 1: course the first line of defense is going for the
33:47
Speaker 1: going to be for the mother to blame the father
33:50
Speaker 1: and say she was abused. But according to detectives, this
33:54
Speaker 1: crime was planned, planned in advance. A detective say, they
34:00
Speaker 1: have evidence. It's just beyond me, uh Dr Bethany Marshall.
34:07
Speaker 1: How grown people could sit around and discuss how they're
34:12
Speaker 1: going to murder a little baby, how they're going to
34:16
Speaker 1: cover it up. And I mean the mode of death.
34:20
Speaker 1: You know, medical examiners look for cause of death and
34:23
Speaker 1: manner of death. Manner of death such as was at homicide,
34:26
Speaker 1: cause of death in this case, blunt force trauma. In fact,
34:30
Speaker 1: this little baby, just two weeks old, was quote seriously
34:34
Speaker 1: disfigured and damaged beyond repair. In other words, what was
34:39
Speaker 1: done to the child could not be repaired. What sit
34:45
Speaker 1: around and talk about that? That's like sitting around having
34:49
Speaker 1: dinner with Satan and builds abub talking about your next antic.
34:53
Speaker 1: I mean, how can you with a straight facing and
34:56
Speaker 1: good conscience talk about how you're gonna murder a two
34:59
Speaker 1: week old baby? Nancy. They hated this baby. They absolutely
35:05
Speaker 1: hated the baby. And remember, in all the cases we've
35:08
Speaker 1: studied where there's child abuse, often the family will hate
35:11
Speaker 1: one child and love the other. And it's always so
35:14
Speaker 1: hard for me to fathom. But somehow the two year
35:17
Speaker 1: old lives and the two week old dies. I mean,
35:20
Speaker 1: that's so strange. Um. Secondly, she could have gotten an abortion.
35:24
Speaker 1: She could have dropped this baby off at a fire station.
35:27
Speaker 1: She could have given it to the loving grandparents. There's
35:31
Speaker 1: so many options. She could have adopted the baby out.
35:34
Speaker 1: But they wanted this baby dead. And you know the
35:38
Speaker 1: fact is she carried that baby for nine months. I mean,
35:41
Speaker 1: there was this expectation of giving life to the baby
35:46
Speaker 1: and then taking life away, and in the most heinous way.
35:51
Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine bashing in the skull of
35:54
Speaker 1: your baby, the skull when I was I mean, the
35:58
Speaker 1: reports were that the skull was disfigured beyond repair. I
36:03
Speaker 1: do not know what that means, but all I can
36:06
Speaker 1: think of is malicious hatred. Joining me is a renowned
36:11
Speaker 1: forensics expert Karen Smith. Karen, if the scene is processed correctly,
36:17
Speaker 1: what are we looking for? I'm sure a primary, a secondary,
36:21
Speaker 1: and at least a tertiary crime scene. That's correct, Nancy,
36:25
Speaker 1: You're dealing with, first of all, the home. They're going
36:29
Speaker 1: to go forwards, backwards, every single which way in that
36:33
Speaker 1: home looking for any kind of forensic evidence, whether it's
36:36
Speaker 1: you know, this just makes my blood boil, and whether
36:41
Speaker 1: they're looking for blood evidence, UM, any type of abuse,
36:44
Speaker 1: which apparently it sounds like from reports they have found
36:47
Speaker 1: evidence of abuse. Um, you have the secondary crime scene,
36:51
Speaker 1: which is where the child was located, and then you
36:55
Speaker 1: have all of the evidence with the child at that
36:58
Speaker 1: crime scene, and that evidence, apparently from all reports point
37:03
Speaker 1: directly to Christopher McNabb and now to Courtney bell Um.
37:07
Speaker 1: It'll be interesting to see what kind of d n A,
37:11
Speaker 1: what kind of other evidence they found with that child.
37:15
Speaker 1: And to think of a two week old infant damaged
37:21
Speaker 1: beyond repair, is it? It is so hard to fathom.
37:26
Speaker 1: And I didn't read anywhere where they had found any
37:29
Speaker 1: kind of weapon, so I'm wondering what the instrument was. UM,
37:33
Speaker 1: if they've done a forensic search for that they brought
37:36
Speaker 1: out dogs and the dogs were unsuccessful at first in
37:39
Speaker 1: finding the infant um, but a secondary search did obviously
37:44
Speaker 1: find her. Along with all of this evidence, it will
37:46
Speaker 1: be interesting to see how it plays out. What now,
37:49
Speaker 1: Lee Egan, I don't understand why the mom is charged
37:51
Speaker 1: with second degree and the father is charged with first degree?
37:55
Speaker 1: Why the difference? According to Courtney's indictment, it says that
37:58
Speaker 1: she too cause blunt force trauma to the baby's head,
38:05
Speaker 1: So I mean I would figure she would get first
38:07
Speaker 1: degree as well. They're not really saying yet why he
38:10
Speaker 1: has a more severe charge. We are on the case
38:13
Speaker 1: baby Khalia found dead, obviously um murdered, and the body
38:20
Speaker 1: hidden in a densely wooded area. We've been waiting for
38:24
Speaker 1: the other shoe to drop, and it has. The mother
38:27
Speaker 1: is now charged with murder too, as we await for
38:31
Speaker 1: her arrayment and court appearance. We want justice. I'm wanna
38:36
Speaker 1: pause and thank our not only our guests or being
38:39
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40:11
Speaker 1: zoom dot com. Now we had across the country to Texas,
40:16
Speaker 1: a three year old little girl, Sharon Matthews, goes missing. Now,
40:21
Speaker 1: listen to this in the middle of the night. The
40:25
Speaker 1: moment I heard this story, it's stunk. The moment I
40:30
Speaker 1: heard this story, I knew something was wrong because when
40:35
Speaker 1: police arrived to investigate the missing three year old little girl, Sharon,
40:39
Speaker 1: her dad says that he woke up in the middle
40:43
Speaker 1: of the night. He tried to give her milk. She
40:47
Speaker 1: written take it, so we punished her by making her
40:52
Speaker 1: go outside I think it was at three o'clock in
40:54
Speaker 1: the morning and stand alone in the dark by a tree,
41:00
Speaker 1: and then he goes suddenly had the earthe to go
41:03
Speaker 1: do the laundry. Why is it when people do something wrong,
41:08
Speaker 1: they suddenly do the laundry. I e. Scott Peterson and
41:11
Speaker 1: so many others. I need to make a list of
41:13
Speaker 1: that Jackie Men who suddenly turned neat nick after a murder. Okay,
41:18
Speaker 1: so he didn't leaves a little girl by the tree
41:21
Speaker 1: at three a m to go do the laundry in
41:26
Speaker 1: an alleyway behind their huge mansion. Like Google Earth didn't
41:32
Speaker 1: look down at it. It's a huge, beautiful home. This
41:35
Speaker 1: guy and his wife live in. But there isn't a
41:38
Speaker 1: little backstreet you know behind their yard that you know,
41:44
Speaker 1: it goes behind all the homes yards, is a little
41:47
Speaker 1: street back there. That's where he made the daughter stand.
41:52
Speaker 1: So he goes out, he says to check on her
41:54
Speaker 1: after he does the laundry, and lo and behold, Sharon
41:59
Speaker 1: is gone on. Can you even imagine that we have
42:05
Speaker 1: just learned that the autopsy a little Sharon is complete?
42:09
Speaker 1: And yes, I said autopsy because a few days later
42:14
Speaker 1: her little body was found inside a culvert not far
42:21
Speaker 1: from the home. Did I mention the fact that this alleyway,
42:26
Speaker 1: this pathway is known for having coyotes. Yeah, let's get
42:33
Speaker 1: to that autopsy. Joining me right now, investigative reporter and
42:38
Speaker 1: journalist joining us out of Dallas, Paul Chambers. Paul, what
42:43
Speaker 1: have we learned from the autopsy report on this three
42:45
Speaker 1: year old little girl? Well, nan Ceo. The balk of
42:49
Speaker 1: information from that report is uh, you know, in the
42:52
Speaker 1: hands of officials and they won't release it. Only the ruling,
42:56
Speaker 1: and that is that little Sharon man Fews died from
43:01
Speaker 1: homicidal violence, which means that someone intentionally, knowingly or with
43:09
Speaker 1: criminal negligence caused the death of this three year old girl.
43:14
Speaker 1: Now Dallas County routinely withholds autopsy reports, citing that they're
43:21
Speaker 1: part of open investigations. But county officials have asked the
43:27
Speaker 1: state Attorney General to make a ruling on this particular
43:31
Speaker 1: withholding because of the nature of the case and that
43:34
Speaker 1: it's really in the news quite a bit here in
43:37
Speaker 1: the Dallas area. You know, Joe Scott Morgan is breaking
43:40
Speaker 1: my heart. This little girl was just thirty six inches tall.
43:44
Speaker 1: I mean, hold your hand at that, thirty six inches tall,
43:48
Speaker 1: and she only weighed twenty two pounds. And I remember
43:54
Speaker 1: Sharon Matthews, this little three year old girl. She was
43:58
Speaker 1: adopted by this family, as I recall from India. Beautiful,
44:03
Speaker 1: beautiful little girl. She looks like um a painting, these
44:08
Speaker 1: big brown eyes looking out at you. And she had
44:13
Speaker 1: been mistreated in India and had gone to a foster
44:19
Speaker 1: home and they returned her. Everybody kicked her out. I
44:25
Speaker 1: think she may have been death. So people had a
44:27
Speaker 1: problem communicating with her. And she was so lonely that
44:33
Speaker 1: she would sit on the bottom step in foster care
44:37
Speaker 1: and wait for the case worker to show up, and
44:40
Speaker 1: started calling the case worker mommy. I mean Joe Scott
44:47
Speaker 1: at three years old, sitting on a step waiting for
44:52
Speaker 1: your case worker. And that's who you think your mommy is.
44:57
Speaker 1: And then they thought that all the prayers had been answered,
45:01
Speaker 1: that she had this rich couple that was going to
45:04
Speaker 1: adopt her and love her, and now she's faced down
45:08
Speaker 1: in the bottom of a culvert just Scott. Yeah, you know,
45:13
Speaker 1: uh heartbreaking. It's is an understatement. We had talked about
45:19
Speaker 1: early on in this case, when you and I were
45:22
Speaker 1: covering at Nancy, how we thought that maybe, uh you know,
45:26
Speaker 1: he had put her outside and codies came along. Nancy.
45:30
Speaker 1: I never thought that. I think we discussed the possibility.
45:33
Speaker 1: But did you actually ever think that, No, No, I
45:37
Speaker 1: really didn't. Based based upon human behavior, putting some baby
45:42
Speaker 1: outside at three am? Whos a kid like this? Now
45:47
Speaker 1: watch it? You remember John David went missing for about
45:50
Speaker 1: one minute in the Baby zero superstore and I was
45:54
Speaker 1: hysterically dragging Lucy behind me, running up and down the
45:58
Speaker 1: aisles because my little l could run three aisles away
46:01
Speaker 1: while I was crouched down at the bottom of the
46:04
Speaker 1: shelf looking for organic sunscreen. Okay, you do remember that story, right,
46:11
Speaker 1: And in the blink of the iso. Sum, naughty people
46:14
Speaker 1: do lose their children for a few moments. But I mean,
46:17
Speaker 1: that's a far cry from sending a baby out at
46:20
Speaker 1: three am to go stand by a tree and in
46:24
Speaker 1: an alley, Yeah, all by herself in the middle of
46:27
Speaker 1: the night. And it was it was alleged at the
46:30
Speaker 1: at the time that it was for punishment because she
46:32
Speaker 1: wouldn't take her milk, uh, that that was being given
46:36
Speaker 1: to her. Uh. And you know, you talked about she
46:39
Speaker 1: choked on the milk and all this other nonsense. What
46:42
Speaker 1: we do know, though, UH, justice was characterized just a
46:45
Speaker 1: moment ago, this is we have five manners of death, Nancy.
46:50
Speaker 1: And when they used the term homicide or homicidal, that
46:55
Speaker 1: means and let this sink into everybody in the audience,
46:58
Speaker 1: that means death at the hand of another. And that's
47:02
Speaker 1: the way we define it. UM. Now. While there is
47:06
Speaker 1: no specific UH cause of death listed as of yet,
47:12
Speaker 1: it's it's important to remember that they've gone so far
47:15
Speaker 1: to characterize the manners being homicidal uh and relative to
47:20
Speaker 1: that UH. And what really kind of what really bothers
47:25
Speaker 1: me about this is that one report that I read,
47:28
Speaker 1: they're saying that there is extensive decomposition, so that that
47:33
Speaker 1: opens up in a completely different door as to how
47:35
Speaker 1: they're going to pursue this case. On indto the Future
47:39
Speaker 1: two Karen Stark, psychologist, I mean, let's just start at
47:43
Speaker 1: the beginning. The story stinks from the get go. Yes,
47:49
Speaker 1: I mean, you wouldn't even send your dogs outside at
47:52
Speaker 1: three am alone, just your way. But Nancy, that leads
48:00
Speaker 1: me to believe it should we should all know this
48:03
Speaker 1: that this is not an unusual punishment for this little girl,
48:07
Speaker 1: if this is what he thinks is how to punish her.
48:10
Speaker 1: And his story changes because first he says that he
48:15
Speaker 1: sent her out to punish her. Later on he says
48:18
Speaker 1: he was trying to get her to drink the milk
48:20
Speaker 1: and admits that he felt for a pulse. He couldn't
48:24
Speaker 1: feel a pulse because she allegedly choked on the milk.
48:29
Speaker 1: So something this little girl was not being treated right.
48:33
Speaker 1: Supposedly she was malnourished, and um, there's abuse that was
48:40
Speaker 1: taking place I suspect before this incident. And to talk
48:45
Speaker 1: about that, Paul Chambers, of course, I as a former prosecutor,
48:49
Speaker 1: always love it when somebody changes their story, and I
48:51
Speaker 1: found out pretty quickly prosecuting that if you ask the
48:56
Speaker 1: correct questions, you might get embellishment. In other words, you
49:02
Speaker 1: might find out more of the story. You might find
49:05
Speaker 1: out that the bank robber had on um a pair
49:08
Speaker 1: of gloves. You might find out that the bank robber
49:11
Speaker 1: had salt and pepper hair, because you're asking specific questions
49:16
Speaker 1: and those details may not have been included in the
49:18
Speaker 1: original statement. But when the statements begin conflicting with the
49:23
Speaker 1: original statement, then you got what we call a big
49:28
Speaker 1: fat liar. Okay, So her losing her pulse after choking
49:33
Speaker 1: on milk is far different from him saying I made
49:37
Speaker 1: her go outside as punishment to stand under a tree
49:40
Speaker 1: at three a m. And when I turned back, she
49:42
Speaker 1: was gone. What do we know about his conflicting statements,
49:45
Speaker 1: Paul Chambers and where's mommy in this scenario? Well, they're both,
49:50
Speaker 1: I can tell you right now in the Dallas County jail.
49:53
Speaker 1: But on October seven was the date that Little share
50:00
Speaker 1: And went missing, and the body was found in October,
50:04
Speaker 1: And it was when the body was found as when
50:06
Speaker 1: the father changed his story and said that she died
50:10
Speaker 1: from choking on the milk. Now we do know from
50:15
Speaker 1: testimony in November at a custody hearing for the matthews
50:19
Speaker 1: other child, the four year old who is their biological child.
50:23
Speaker 1: We know from testimony from a doctor at a child
50:28
Speaker 1: clinic where Sharon was taken several times over a period
50:31
Speaker 1: of a few months, that Sharon suffered various injuries according
50:37
Speaker 1: to this doctor, of that we're in, uh, several different
50:41
Speaker 1: states of healing. She reported to Child Protective Services this
50:46
Speaker 1: doctor that Sharon was likely being abused, and Child Protective
50:53
Speaker 1: Services apparently dropped the ball and didn't act. As a
50:58
Speaker 1: matter of fact, the Missioner of CPS, Hank Whitman, is
51:03
Speaker 1: already admitted that his agency dropped the ball in this
51:06
Speaker 1: case and little Sharon was allowed to remain in the
51:10
Speaker 1: custody of her parents. At least CPS I can tell
51:15
Speaker 1: you they acted quickly when Sharon was reported missing and
51:20
Speaker 1: they took the biological daughter away from the parents. Oh yeah,
51:24
Speaker 1: they show up lick andy split when somebody's dead, when
51:27
Speaker 1: the dead body turns out. I mean, but but Joseph
51:31
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Uh, how many times have you and I
51:34
Speaker 1: covered dead children cases, murdered children cases, tortured children, cases
51:40
Speaker 1: where defects did nothing time after time after time after time,
51:46
Speaker 1: they get called, they come to the house or don't
51:49
Speaker 1: come to the house, nothing is done, and the child
51:52
Speaker 1: ends up dead. Okay, I gotta confess something. I had
51:56
Speaker 1: a blowout in the airport over the holiday with a
52:01
Speaker 1: lady that I heard slapping her child in one of
52:06
Speaker 1: the bathroom stalls. Okay, I actually thought we were going
52:10
Speaker 1: to get into a physical fight. I know, Yes, Jackie's
52:14
Speaker 1: looking at me like what yes. So, um, and I
52:19
Speaker 1: took the children to go skating um at Rockfeller Center,
52:23
Speaker 1: which is always one of my dreams. So I superimpose
52:25
Speaker 1: that onto the children and assume as their dreams. So
52:27
Speaker 1: now my dream is to watch them living out my dream.
52:30
Speaker 1: And um, Karen, don't bother to figure unravel that, you know,
52:34
Speaker 1: barrel of snakes. But so we're coming back. We're coming back,
52:40
Speaker 1: and get off the plane. I take Lucy to the bathroom.
52:44
Speaker 1: John David is actually arguing with me, by the way
52:47
Speaker 1: about coming in the lady's bathroom, just so you know.
52:50
Speaker 1: So now I have half my body in the men's
52:52
Speaker 1: bathroom most of the time, screaming John David, or you're
52:54
Speaker 1: alive as anybody touching you. Okay, So it's quite the spectacle.
52:59
Speaker 1: But anyway, this moment, we were in the ladies bathroom
53:02
Speaker 1: and Lucy's right beside me, and Um, I hear a
53:08
Speaker 1: mom yelling at a baby. I don't hear the baby
53:11
Speaker 1: say anything, and UM down to hear slap and I
53:17
Speaker 1: come and the baby starts crying. I hear another one,
53:22
Speaker 1: and I head towards the stall. Lucy's going, mom, don't
53:25
Speaker 1: get crazy, and uh there was an attendant with her
53:32
Speaker 1: with a mop cart and all that standing there outside
53:36
Speaker 1: the door too. And I said, did she just slap
53:40
Speaker 1: the baby in the in the mock? Lady said yes,
53:44
Speaker 1: yes she did. So okay, I looked into the lady
53:50
Speaker 1: and we got into it for was fly And let
53:54
Speaker 1: me tell you long story short. She stormed out of
53:57
Speaker 1: that bathroom and I stormed out right behind her. I mean,
54:00
Speaker 1: it was a scene. So what I don't get is
54:04
Speaker 1: how defects It was a toddler, Jackie. It was a
54:08
Speaker 1: little book. I think it was a little boy like
54:11
Speaker 1: maybe the maybe thirty six inches tall, just like this
54:14
Speaker 1: little girl. So let me ask you this, um, how
54:18
Speaker 1: is it? Paul Chambers, investigative reporter and journalists joining me
54:23
Speaker 1: out of Dallas that defects knew the child was being
54:26
Speaker 1: abused and did nothing about it. Well it's uh, you
54:31
Speaker 1: know they're saying it just slipped through the cracks. What crack?
54:37
Speaker 1: I mean really seriously, how does it slip through the cracks?
54:39
Speaker 1: You got a child being tortured at home? How does
54:43
Speaker 1: that slip through the cracks? Well, they had that, they
54:46
Speaker 1: had the report by the doctor at the child clinic,
54:50
Speaker 1: and uh, I'm sure a lot of these reports, you know,
54:54
Speaker 1: get to relate to them every day, and somehow they
54:58
Speaker 1: just didn't. As there's they admit that they didn't, and
55:02
Speaker 1: they're trying to correct the problems. CPS has had numerous
55:05
Speaker 1: problems in this state dealing with abused or potentially abused children.
55:11
Speaker 1: And um so they've got this guy, Hank Whitman, who
55:16
Speaker 1: was appointed by the governor uh probably about probably about
55:20
Speaker 1: a year ago, and he uh is a very well
55:23
Speaker 1: respected individual. He's been trying to change things and God
55:26
Speaker 1: bless him, they need him times ten. So long story
55:30
Speaker 1: short to Joe Scott Morgan, what does this mean? Homicidal violence?
55:35
Speaker 1: Why don't we know? Was she beaten? Was she asphyxiated?
55:39
Speaker 1: Was she stabbed? Why don't we know that, And how
55:43
Speaker 1: is a child autopsy different from an adult autopsy. Well,
55:48
Speaker 1: first off, let's let's talk about the trauma. Uh, let
55:51
Speaker 1: me back up a little bit and say that based
55:55
Speaker 1: on the one report that I had read, there was
55:57
Speaker 1: extensive decomposition. If that is in fact the case, hopefully
56:02
Speaker 1: we'll get the report in our hands soon. But if
56:05
Speaker 1: that is in fact the case, um, we have to
56:09
Speaker 1: consider that a soft tissue trauma like stab wounds. UM. Uh,
56:15
Speaker 1: they're not going to necessarily present themselves if the body
56:19
Speaker 1: is that severely decomposed. But I just can't see it
56:22
Speaker 1: because the child was not down that long. UM, So
56:25
Speaker 1: I have to think that something else is going on.
56:28
Speaker 1: Now when it comes to something like smothering, UM, that's
56:32
Speaker 1: a completely different kettle of fish. But if she was choked,
56:36
Speaker 1: we could find hemorrhage and what are referred to as
56:38
Speaker 1: the strap muscles. And if folks at home will just
56:41
Speaker 1: kind of run their fingers alongside the sides of their
56:44
Speaker 1: throat and down down to the center, the center midline,
56:48
Speaker 1: that's where the strap muscles are, and we would find
56:50
Speaker 1: hemorrhage in there. Um. Now, as you know, UM, I'm sorry,
56:56
Speaker 1: I can't remember the last part of the question. But
56:58
Speaker 1: the old autopsy different from an adult autopsy if at all. Yeah, well,
57:04
Speaker 1: with the child autopsy, Nancy. We try to take care
57:07
Speaker 1: in every single autopsy that we do. But this is
57:11
Speaker 1: the rough. Uh. Children are not just supposed to spontaneously die.
57:15
Speaker 1: I think we can all agree on that. So they're
57:18
Speaker 1: going to take a really long, hard look at what
57:22
Speaker 1: what could have brought about this child's death. When a
57:25
Speaker 1: medical exam or corner goes into a case, particularly with
57:28
Speaker 1: the child death, we work from the assumption that this
57:31
Speaker 1: is in fact a homicide to begin with. That way,
57:33
Speaker 1: we don't miss anything. So there will be more extensive
57:37
Speaker 1: dissections that will take place, they will be more testing.
57:40
Speaker 1: So that gives me an indication that potentially, potentially they're
57:44
Speaker 1: kind of playing their cards close to the vest on
57:46
Speaker 1: this case, and you know, we'll kind of see how
57:49
Speaker 1: how it how it spins out going forward. Karen's truck.
57:52
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a photo of little Sharing right now.
57:55
Speaker 1: Do you know she's wearing an exact little dress that
57:59
Speaker 1: Lucy used to have. It's a circle from Target, and
58:03
Speaker 1: it's got all these little looks like balloons on it,
58:07
Speaker 1: pink and purple, and yellow and turquoise. She's just so precious,
58:13
Speaker 1: And I don't understand where the mother stands in all
58:17
Speaker 1: of this care and start. If the dad is guilty,
58:20
Speaker 1: if how can the mom stand by and let this happen?
58:25
Speaker 1: You know? I immediately start thinking about years and years ago, Nancy,
58:29
Speaker 1: something that we had talked about many times, the Joel
58:32
Speaker 1: Steinberg case where the mother was the head. Yeah, and
58:40
Speaker 1: Hetta was as abused as the kids were, and the
58:45
Speaker 1: and again the authorities, you know, they was reported to
58:50
Speaker 1: child Protection over and over again, and nobody did anything.
58:54
Speaker 1: And um, I think just in the same way that um,
59:00
Speaker 1: you know, the little girl would attach herself to the
59:02
Speaker 1: parent that was the abusing parent. The mother is afraid
59:08
Speaker 1: to speak up. And if in fact that's the case,
59:14
Speaker 1: that's the only explanation I can think of. And the
59:17
Speaker 1: outrage of knowing stories like this where there was a
59:23
Speaker 1: concerned professional involved who did report it and nothing was
59:28
Speaker 1: done for this beautiful little girl. We are on the
59:31
Speaker 1: case as it develops. Let me give you a toll
59:34
Speaker 1: free number for National Child Help Hotline one eight hundred
59:40
Speaker 1: four A child one eight hundred four two two four
59:45
Speaker 1: four five three repeat eight hundred four, two two, four, four,
59:52
Speaker 1: five three Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off Goodbye friend
1:00:00
Speaker 1: one