Latest / Let's Talk Podcasts from Feminist Podcasters Collective / Heather Vickery on Podcast Partnerships: Was It Chance, Broadway Podcast Network & Lessons from The Brave Files
Transcript
- Becky Mollenkamp (00:00) Heather. Thanks for being here. before we get too far into this, I want to talk a little bit about your origin story with podcasting, like you're a superhero, and then Heather Vickery (00:08) Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (00:08) focus probably quite a bit on your current podcast and what it's like to do that in partnership with someone else, because I think that's something interesting that a lot of our other guests have not been able to speak to, although you and I both can. But before we do that, can you tell me, Heather, why do you podcast? Heather Vickery (00:22) I podcast. I being what I podcast because I love it. That's why I podcast. I podcast because it gives me an opportunity to talk to really cool people and have conversations that just don't naturally happen in my everyday life. And because I have a co-host, it is a really fun thing to do with my best friend. That's why I podcast. Becky Mollenkamp (00:40) I love that. it's funny how in these conversations, some folks want to have like a perfect answer to this question of why they podcast and and then ultimately for many of them, the answer is really just I enjoy doing it. And there's almost like Heather Vickery (00:51) I enjoy doing it. Becky Mollenkamp (00:52) an apology to that. But can't that be enough? Especially from somebody who's Heather Vickery (00:55) Yes. Becky Mollenkamp (00:56) all about exactly joy and fun. So yeah, it is enough. That's great. Heather Vickery (00:58) Yeah. It's absolutely enough. I mean, well, we'll get more into this, but with my first show, it was really a a passion project because it cost me a fortune to run all the back end of that show. my current show doesn't doesn't do that. It cost me a little, but not a lot. And so, you know, you gotta love it. I just really think if you're gonna unless you are a big celebrity with a huge platform. You have to love it or it is absolutely not worth doing. Cause it's a lot of work. Becky Mollenkamp (01:27) I mean, I'm sure Amy I'm sure Amy Polar's watching this. Hey, Amy, we're besties, right? But no, the Heather Vickery (01:31) yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (01:32) people watching this and the people in our community with the Feminist Podcasters Collective, the we are those folks who are not big names. We're trying to figure out how do we find an audience in the world of Amy Polars. We love Amy, but in that world of celebrity, what does it look like to in this market, this space that was invite it really invented not to be yet another big celebrity space, meant to be a Heather Vickery (01:52) Absolutely. Becky Mollenkamp (01:53) place where anyone has a voice. How do we get hurt? But go back to your first podcast with the brave files, Heather Vickery (01:57) Okay. Becky Mollenkamp (01:58) right? Same as your book. Heather Vickery (01:59) The Brave files sort of the same as my book. My book is called Can I Can I Curse on your show? My book is called Fuck Fearless, Making the Brave Leap. So, Becky Mollenkamp (02:01) The book's the brave method. Yep. Of course. that's right. Okay, that's Heather Vickery (02:07) but Brave is an acronym. So I have the Brave method. It's it's a coaching method. Yeah, which is what the book is about. Becky Mollenkamp (02:10) Right, the brave method. Yeah. So did you write tell me the sequence of that. Like what was was the podcast in support of the book? Did the book come out of the podcast? How did all of those things play together? And when did you get started? Heather Vickery (02:22) Kind of kind of they didn't ever really play together other than the Becky Mollenkamp (02:24) okay. Heather Vickery (02:25) word brave. and and it was interesting because everyone assumed it was a business focused podcast and it just really wasn't. Although Brave is something that I have embodied for many, many, many years in my life. And so I turned I turned Brave into an acronym to create the Brave method, which then led to the book. The podcast was because I was already using that word. A lot and I knew I wanted to podcast for a long time. I had a lot of interest in it, but I couldn't figure out what I wanted to podcast about. I was like, nothing, I didn't want a business show that didn't feel fun for me. I didn't know what I wanted to be. And the real story is so fascinating. I was making dinner one night and I was like, hmm. What if I did a show called The Brave Files? What would that be about? I'm like, I could interview people who have stepped out of fear and into bravery in. unexpected ways like across the board, just regular people. And I I just did it. Like that, I literally put down what I was cooking. I went to my computer. I bought a domain. I created a Google form. I went on back when I had Facebook, this was a long time ago. I went on Facebook. I was like, I'm starting a podcast. If you think you have a story or you know somebody who has a story, fill out the application and I I'm launching in six weeks. Like I just and I knew zero about podcasting. I had a microphone. Becky Mollenkamp (03:43) Do you remember what year that was? Heather Vickery (03:45) Yeah, it was twenty sixteen. Hmm. Is that right? Yeah, I think so. I had a microphone. There's an interesting backstory on that. because I'd been talking about podcasting for a long time with my own coach. And one day, a microphone and a s and a little armstand appeared on my doorstep with a note that said, Start the podcast. Like my coach was like, You don't have any more excuses. I bought you a microphone. Here it is. and so I started playing with video a little bit and audio from there. So I did it. I started the podcast and I loved that show, Becky. I loved it so much, but I worked hard and it cost me a ton of money because I don't have editing skills, nor do I have patience. I tried for like a second and it was a shit show. So I hired an editor. And then I had a whole business to run. And at the time my kids, you know, I have four kids and now they're older, but they were all really little. I just didn't have the capacity for the social media. And we did everything right, quote unquote, right. I'm curious your thoughts on this with the podcast. Like I had release forms and form letters, and I had all the shit, but I had an assistant who helped me do it. So we did I did 250 episodes of the Brave Files. And I met some of the most incredible people in the entire world doing that show, but it never it was never about my business. So it never made me money, although it is still and the show hasn't run for the last three years. It is still a one point five percent global podcast. It still gets I'm still getting downloads. Yeah. Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (05:12) So you're still getting downloads, I'm imagining. Yeah. That is something that's come up in other conversations, and I just think it's such a great point to drive home because I think, and I've talked about this in the most recent Amplified newsletter for the podcast collective as well. Just the importance of not quitting or andor the inverse of not seeing it as a short term play. I think so often people start podcasting and they get their initial maybe five, maybe 10 episodes. And then the numbers aren't what they thought they would be and so they quit. And they're like Heather Vickery (05:43) yeah. A the the average podcaster quits within seven episodes. and you don't know shit within seven episodes. You don't even really know anything within the first year and a half, right? Like, yes, Becky Mollenkamp (05:50) You don't even know what your podcast is. Yeah. Heather Vickery (05:53) like and I I love it because it was a really honest journey. If you listen to the first couple of episodes of the Brave Files, like it I learned a lot. Becky Mollenkamp (06:03) listen, if you don't listen to your first few episodes of a podcast and cringe, you're not doing you're not trying hard enough, right? You're not like really giving it your all. Cause I would go back and Heather Vickery (06:10) Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (06:11) listen. I really thought I needed to script things. Everything sounded I was, you know, so professional. And it's just like, who wants to listen to that? Heather Vickery (06:16) Professional. Yeah. I never did scripts, but it was an interview show, right? I've never Becky Mollenkamp (06:20) Yeah. Heather Vickery (06:20) done a solo show. I although I have for my business, I did a live show that was also a podcast for years. And I just put that on ice last spring because I was like, I don't feel like doing this anymore. But yeah, so I love I loved it. And it was a really well-oiled machine. But my assistant who worked on it primarily, I mean, really all I did was find the guests and do the interviews and everything else. Somebody I had two other people automating. When she had some personal stuff come up and had to leave, I already had the second show. Was it chance by then? We've been doing it for about a year. And I was like, What do I want to do here? Do I actually wanna take this back over? Or is it time for this to sunset? And I decided I decided to stop. It was very bittersweet, but it was the right decision. Becky Mollenkamp (07:03) Yeah, I mean, there that's also totally valid, right? When something is no longer serving you, whatever that means for you, then we can walk away from that and that's okay. I would push back and I think you would agree on the idea that it and I think you I could see you in real time kind of making this adjustment of it didn't it wasn't almost like an it wasn't worth it because it didn't lead to money. I know that's not what you were saying, but I could see like Right, exactly. Yeah. Heather Vickery (07:25) Well, it was but it was costing me actively about five hundred dollars a month. So it wasn't I never expected it to make me money and my current show doesn't like we joke sometimes. We do have dynamic ads and every like once a year I'll get like a twelve dollar check. I'm like, that's so exciting. I mean books don't either. I got my my my my thing. You have a a new book out. It's not so new anymore, but kind of I I got my thing from Ingram Spark that tells me how much money I made in the month. I made forty three cents. That was amazing. Becky Mollenkamp (07:53) Okay, you made money. Heather Vickery (07:54) Well, but more than that, it meant somebody was buying my book and reading my book. Becky Mollenkamp (07:58) Mm-hmm. Heather Vickery (07:59) So, you know, I'm like I was delighted. I'm like, okay, people are still my book's been out now for six years. Like I'm like, people are still reading buying my book. That's so exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (08:09) That's amazing. If I'm making any sales in six years, my mind will go will probably literally explode. Like it's amazing. But also again, here we are a couple of years out from the podcast and it's still getting downloaded. So people are still discovering you through this thing that you are no longer even actively producing or creating or adding to. So we don't know what that might mean for who those people are, how whether they lead. into your funnel, into your journey, you know, customer journey. And also those relationships from the people that were on your show. Now I'm sure not all of them are deep, Heather Vickery (08:39) No. Becky Mollenkamp (08:39) meaningful relationships, but like you said, you met amazing people. Some of them are people who've probably introduced you to people, who maybe have been on your other show. I know that I'm one of those people. Like, you know, Heather Vickery (08:48) You are, he said. Becky Mollenkamp (08:49) there are people in your sphere. So it's not to try and tell people that you should be losing five hundred dollars a month on a podcast or putting that in and and not feeling it's getting a gain. But yeah, I just mm-hmm. Heather Vickery (08:56) It was worth it for when I did it. But when the load shifted that I had to do more of the work to keep it going, I had to make a decision what about my capacity. And Becky Mollenkamp (09:05) Yeah. Heather Vickery (09:07) that was really what changed it. It wasn't really the money, Becky Mollenkamp (09:11) Yeah. Heather Vickery (09:12) because I loved doing it, but I wasn't willing to take on the administrative stuff. I just couldn't I just didn't have it in me. Becky Mollenkamp (09:17) Yeah. I think it's just good to also remember the the outcomes are not always just money. And I know that you would agree to that. Now Heather Vickery (09:24) Yes. yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (09:25) I want to talk about the new show. Or well, it's not new, but the other show. I'll say you guys have been around forever, but yeah. Heather Vickery (09:28) Okay. It's a I know, we're five years old now. As of November. Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (09:33) And how do you know how many episodes? Heather Vickery (09:34) I could tell you. Sorry, we Becky Mollenkamp (09:35) Well, while you figure that out, I'll say it's called Was It Chance, which you co-host with Alan Seals. and Heather Vickery (09:40) I do. Becky Mollenkamp (09:41) you guys have been doing this for five years now. And it's part of the Heather Vickery (09:43) Five years in November. Becky Mollenkamp (09:44) Broadway Podcast Network, because that Heather Vickery (09:47) It is. Becky Mollenkamp (09:47) is what Alan runs the Broadway Podcast Network, which then is a network that includes many other shows, similar to what the Femus Podcasters Collective is in that it's many shows, except the BPN's more of a traditional network in that it actually does the advertising and will you know, find advertisers for all of the shows inside of the network and then run them. We're more of a memberships community, a support community for education Heather Vickery (10:08) Support community. Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (10:11) and and peer support. And so go ahead. Do you have any episodes? Heather Vickery (10:15) Yeah. Well, so a hundred and nineteen episodes because Becky Mollenkamp (10:18) Okay. Heather Vickery (10:18) we release every other week, sort of. The we released yesterday. Becky Mollenkamp (10:21) Yeah. Heather Vickery (10:22) and before that it had been a whole month because Alan just had a bunch of stuff going on and he's my tech guy. So he does the editing, he does that. I I get I secure the majority of the guests, I send emails, I do social media stuff. me and my assistant, she helps with that, but he does all the tech stuff. So if he doesn't have the capacity to edit and publish, then we wait a little bit. Usually it's every other week. yeah, and that's right. So BPN is amazing. Here's the really funny backstory on that. I went to Podcast Network in Nashville back when I had the Bray Files. And I went with a friend of mine, I actually roomed with her, Mary, from a show that's Sunset now called Latterday Lesbian. Did you ever listen to Latterday Lesbian? Becky Mollenkamp (11:05) Mm-mm. Heather Vickery (11:05) Ha ha It was Mary and her then partner, they're not together anymore, talking about her partner Shelley's li lived experience in leaving the Mormon church. Anyway, I became a fangirl of that show, but we became friends of each other. We had each other on all of our shows. So I went to podcast movement and Mary was my roommate. And the first night there, she's like, I'm just sitting talking with this stranger. You sit down, meet Alan. And I don't know, man, have you ever met somebody? Like within literally Becky Mollenkamp (11:29) for sure. Heather Vickery (11:30) within minutes, I was like, we're gonna be best friends. And he was like, Absolutely. Like that's done. Like we know that. And we just literally were gl I mean, I'm a lesbian and he's married with kids. And it was never anything other than like just best like instant best friends. we were together like every second of the podcast, and on the last or of the conference, and on the last day, I said, I have this idea for a show. And he's like, Tell me about it. And I told him he was like, We should do that. And I'm like, Really? You wanna Really? Like you were very busy guy. He worked full time for Google at the time. He was running BPN. He was like, Yeah, I'm totally in. and so we sat down, we had a conversation like two days later, and two months later, like over monthly, that was that was August, November, we launched our first episode and it has just been a blast since then. So BPN is awesome. It came about because he thought when he first moved to Chicago, or he first moved to New York, I'm in Chicago, he's in New York, he had a theater degree, but he couldn't get any. work for theater, but he's also a tech guy and and he loves Broadway. He's like, I'll do a a podcast about Broadway, but there aren't any others. So he launches his show only to discover that there are hundreds of others, but all of these artsy people don't know how to get discovered. So he built the tech that was the foundation for BPN. And he was like, okay, come on in. We will crowdsource, we will share, I will get I I will do the work to get the ads. We'll build your website for you. We'll do your logo, like all of that. which was amazing. And so, yeah, it's fun. It's so much fun. Becky Mollenkamp (13:00) Okay, I love all of that. I wanted to ask a backstory, so that's great. So now that brings us to a place where you guys are thinking you're doing the show. But before that, I want to ask about, I think sometimes people think a partnership will be great, and sometimes a partnership is great. And sometimes people Heather Vickery (13:13) Sometimes it is. Becky Mollenkamp (13:14) rush into a partnership and it's not great. And then they Heather Vickery (13:16) Mm-hmm. Becky Mollenkamp (13:16) sort of think, ooh, upon reflection, maybe I should have asked this or thought that or whatever, because I thought we were really alike and on the same page. And turns out maybe we weren't as much. And that might be about like, The value set. It could be about the workload, about who's gonna do what. It could be about how we're gonna, you know, is there equity here? Is it equality? Like there could be a whole host of things that can cause problems. So this is a person you didn't know, right? And that could be right. So that's very scary. Heather Vickery (13:41) No, I didn't. It was was it chance. It was very aligned with our show. Becky Mollenkamp (13:45) Right. And it could have gone a totally different way. Is there anything Heather Vickery (13:49) Two yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (13:50) beyond just I just had this feeling, which can be valid and and we'll leave it at that if that's it? Heather Vickery (13:54) If you know me. Becky Mollenkamp (13:55) But was there anything else that helped you feel comfortable to say, I'm gonna go into this endeavor with this person and I feel like we are definitely gonna be on the same page? Or were you kind of going into it just hoping it worked out? Heather Vickery (14:07) I think it was a little of both. We did talk about the details. Like we you know, we did talk about who had what responsibilities, what that looked like. Like I pay for the website. Okay, fine. But BPN pays for everything else, right? Like I had to pay, like I have to pay to host it. I find the guests. He does all the editing. That was having come from where I was and knowing that I was paying an editor with the Bray Files, I knew like that's priceless. And I've I still kind of feel like maybe he gets the heavier end, but I don't think he feels that way because it's easy for him. And now with AI tools, like AI editing is really much easier. I still don't have the patience for it. He does it really well, but but what he doesn't have the time for or the energy for is all of this stuff. that I do on on my end. but I think what works for me and Alan, and I don't know if this is gonna make sense, is we are total opposites. We are the most different type of person from A to Z. The only thing we have in common is that we're both really good kinded, kind-hearted people. We're feminist, we're progressive. Like we have moral values in common. Other than that, Like he asks questions I would never ask. I ask questions he would never ask. And we are really good at like that push pull with people. And so I kind of think if you were have hosting a podcast with somebody who was too much like you, I think it could be challenging. Becky Mollenkamp (15:32) Mm-hmm. Well, it's that it's not just the opposites attract thing. It's the the balance Heather Vickery (15:37) Mm-hmm. Becky Mollenkamp (15:38) in so many ways, right? Where it's like you guys complement each other. You're Heather Vickery (15:42) We do. Becky Mollenkamp (15:43) orange and blue, right? That's a it's an unexpected complementary pair where you think these colors seem so opposite, but then when you put them together, like, they actually go together quite nicely in ways I wouldn't have expected. And I know that as you were saying, the editing was such a big piece that you were like, I don't want to do that again. So when you met him, was that clear up from the very beginning? Did you guys do Heather Vickery (16:01) Always Becky Mollenkamp (16:02) that division of okay, that division of labor was clear? Because I'm sure that's what Heather Vickery (16:06) Always. Becky Mollenkamp (16:06) now that you're five years in. What do you think is the key that keeps you guys going? Is it the fact that you have that figured out? Are you doing regular check-ins to say, like, is this still working for you? How do you guys kind of manage the partnership over five years? Heather Vickery (16:21) Funny that you ask that because what keeps us going is that it's the most fun thing that we both do that's not like family related. It really truly and we we interview incredibly cool people, but mostly we just enjoy doing this together and having this time together. And Alan got made redundant through Google several years ago, and he just now Cause he was doing all he's his he is in everything. He's just such a smart guy. He's probably the smartest person I've ever met in my entire life. And the way his brain works just blows my mind. But he just got a new full-time job. And he starts next week. And he went in and he said, I'll only take this job if I can, if you know that I'm gonna prioritize these like other five projects that I'm working on. And he listed what was really important, including our show, Was It Chance. And he's like, I'm gonna keep doing this. And I'm not giving these things up for your job. And but then, but like I said, it's been a month since the last episode and I started to panic yesterday. I was like, fuck, like if this is gonna be too much, like what's what's gonna happen? And I was like, You're not quitting the show, are you? And he was like, Absolutely not. Absolutely not, I'm not going anywhere. And I was like, Okay, because you're my favorite and this is my favorite thing. He was like, same. You're my favorite. This is my favorite thing. Like I'm in. so we have not ever had to have a check-in. until now, but I knew that the circumstances were changing. So Becky Mollenkamp (17:41) Right. Heather Vickery (17:41) you yeah. I mean you have to be honest with each other. You have to know each other really well. But we are really truly besties. Like we talk all day. Like we're always connected. So Becky Mollenkamp (17:49) I know this is the first time you've had to have that kind of a check-in and that kind of a chat. Have there been other things though along the way? They don't have to be big things, but just little things where you've had disagreements about maybe a guest that you would have on or the approach to a show, or I know you said he asked questions you wouldn't, where maybe it was too much or whatever that is. Do you guys have any of those things and how do you deal with that? Because I think this stuff can be really valuable for people who are Heather Vickery (18:11) Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (18:11) trying to are thinking about co-hosting. Heather Vickery (18:13) Absolutely. It's that's almost always about the same thing. And sometimes I'm oversensitive. He is silly and funny. And I want Becky Mollenkamp (18:21) He is. Heather Vickery (18:22) to like, you know, appear buttoned up and whatever. I'm silly and funny too, but and he made like t terrible jokes, terrible dad jokes, terrible inappropriate jokes, things that I'm like, Jesus, if the wrong person heard this, we're gonna get so canceled. And a really good example of that is an episode that just released yesterday. So we interviewed Loki Mulholland, who is the son of Joan Trumper Mulholland, famous, world famous civil rights activist. It was a fucking incredible conversation. And I don't know if you've listened yet. You you have a lot of podcasts, so you probably haven't. But Becky Mollenkamp (18:52) I haven't had a two yet. I saw it. Heather Vickery (18:55) we do we Alan and I opened the show with with banter, which was actually feedback we got from the Feminist Podcasters Collective. Like we love you guys and your energy. We come back for you, not necessarily for the guests. So give us more. So we do like, you know, seven to ten minutes of just bullshit at the beginning of our episode. And we were talking about random things. Like I've started eating a spoonful of peanut butter in the morning before coffee because it keeps me from a perimenopausal cortisol crash or whatever. And I was like, he was like, Does it have to be peanut butter? And I said, No, it could be anything. It could be a handful of nuts. And he goes, I've got your nuts right here. And I was like, Alan, and the guest is right there. And it's fucking Loki Mulholland. And I said, Alan, no. You have to edit that out. I'm like, this is not the appropriate show for that joke. Like, what no? And he totally left it in. So I'm listening to the episode yesterday and I'm like, my God, you left it in. And then this morning from one of our regular listeners who's also a friend of mine, I got a text. He left it in. And I sent him a screenshot. He was like, Okay, fine. Do you want me to take it out? I can go back and edit it out. And I was like, I don't know, let me ask her. And she was like, No, it's hilarious. You have to leave it in. And I'm like, okay. Like I sometimes I'm too uptight. Becky Mollenkamp (19:57) Well and it's on him more than you, right? So like it really is a reflection. So Heather Vickery (20:02) I know. I was like, Did you just make a D's nuts joke to the son of the one of the most famous civil rights activists? Becky Mollenkamp (20:09) How did the I how did the how did he respond to the guests? Heather Vickery (20:11) He did not, you should check it out on Spotify because in the audio, like we usually our guests don't Becky Mollenkamp (20:14) I want you can see the video. Yeah. Heather Vickery (20:16) in the video on Spotify, he he did nothing. He completely pretended it didn't happen. He's a good Southern boy. I was like, well, he didn't leave. That's cool. But Becky Mollenkamp (20:26) That's a good that's a good sign. Well, these are interesting things to think about, I think, when you're thinking about co-hosting is the personality differences. And sometimes those things could be deal breakers, they could cause problems. And also where you can allow yourself to lean into it could actually be part of the magic, right? Heather Vickery (20:44) It's totally part of the magic. And that is our dynamic. It's a very sibling-like, I'm like, he he he acts you know like a child. And I'm often like, Alan. Ugh Alan. Like constantly. Except I love it and I love him. And I don't know. He does get away with saying some shit that I'm like, man, I would not let any other person say that. But he's just being a dumbass. But a couple of months ago, and I will tell this story here, and he won't mind. But he w in our pre-show banter, he was like, Well, after this episode, I have to go and see if my neighbor's dead. And I'm like, What are you talking about? He's like, Well, we have this elderly neighbor and nobody's seen her for a long time. And there's this terrible smell. And we all kind of like talked about it for a long time. Well, it turned out she was dead. And I was like, dude, you gotta cut that shit out. You gotta take it out. And he's like, he's like, Are you sure? I'm like, Yes. I'm absolutely sure. Like this isn't sensitive. She was he was like, Okay, I won't put that in. So, you know, like we do both. Becky Mollenkamp (21:39) There's the give and take. Yeah. Well, Heather Vickery (21:41) There's give and take. Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (21:43) since you guys have been doing this for five years, it's obviously been more sustainable for you in some ways to have a had this, either it's this particular podcast or it's more about, my guess is it's more about the relationship that has made it sustainable. Heather Vickery (21:55) Both. Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (21:56) So, what is it about being in partnership that you would recommend for people who are considering it? And then just any words of caution for people who are considering it. Heather Vickery (22:06) yeah, being in in partnership, I think is so much fun, but it needs to be fun. And if you're not having fun, I'd say check yourself on it and what because if you're not having fun doing a podcast, it's not fun to listen to. I promise you. Like you can absolutely tell. So just do the vibe check and make sure that it's something everybody's enjoying. But I would be really clear about differentiating Who's responsible for what? we work together as co-hosts because we really respect what the other person has to say. We're happy to listen. We're happy to kind of go with the flow and be flexible. If you're and I say this with love, if you're like super type A uptight, you need to control everything, maybe a co-hosted show is not for you. And that's fine. Totally fine. Like we have to roll with the punches on it. And it's it's really fun for us. Becky Mollenkamp (22:53) Yeah, and I mean it's obviously those are important things to know about yourself because another piece of that can be for some people, they kind of want I don't want to use I don't want it to sound egocentric in a bad way, but they kind of want the glory. They want, they want Heather Vickery (23:03) They want to be the center of the show. Yep. Becky Mollenkamp (23:05) to be, they want it to be their thing, right? Their thing. Heather Vickery (23:07) Yep. Yep. Becky Mollenkamp (23:08) And when it's your thing as in a a pair of you thing, it's not gonna ever be your thing. And that can be a change. Was there any adjustment for you? And I don't mean it in that. in like a icky way, but just is there Heather Vickery (23:19) No Becky Mollenkamp (23:20) an adjustment period of going from a show that was a hundred percent your choice? You got to decide who was on, how you did it. You know, I mean you had help in the editing, but you were the boss. Was there Heather Vickery (23:29) I was the boss. Becky Mollenkamp (23:29) any adjustment period into something where you guys are joint decision makers? Heather Vickery (23:33) In this case, there really wasn't because Becky Mollenkamp (23:36) That's great. Heather Vickery (23:37) we didn't have any specific expectations. We just wanted to have fun. But my paramenopausal brain just totally flaked out on me. Anything did I don't remember what I was gonna say. Shit. Becky Mollenkamp (23:48) Yeah. So it wasn't a big adjustment, which is fine. Heather Vickery (23:50) It wasn't it wasn't a big adjustment. fuck I had something really valuable to add. It was right there. Maybe it'll come back. I'm really sorry. Becky Mollenkamp (23:55) Well, maybe it'll come back to you. And that's okay if it does. Yeah, because now you're co-hosting and look, let's just have two parametal puzzle puzzle brains trying to work together. Cause I also had a thing I wanted to ask you about, and I'm like, what was it? Heather Vickery (24:04) I feel better. I'm so sorry. Becky Mollenkamp (24:10) no, it's okay. Because as you were saying, I was like, well, then I when she gets done with her answer, I'm gonna ask her this. But then the answer stopped and then my brain stopped. So let's just both take a moment to think about Heather Vickery (24:17) It's like tele telepathy. Becky Mollenkamp (24:20) it. So I'm asking you about. Heather Vickery (24:22) Was it an adjustment? Becky Mollenkamp (24:24) Yeah, and you said no. Heather Vickery (24:25) Adjustment. Easy. Becky Mollenkamp (24:25) Where do I want to go now, Heather? I think I want to go to bed. Heather Vickery (24:28) I have to go do Becky Mollenkamp (24:28) Yeah, get it. Heather Vickery (24:29) a podcast interview and hope my fucking microphone doesn't act crazy. Becky Mollenkamp (24:31) Make sure our brain starts to work again. anyway, okay, because for people who are used to doing things on their own, there can be a change there. And you mentioned division of labor and making sure that that is clear, and I remember Heather Vickery (24:41) Hm. Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (24:43) what it was. You also said, in addition to making sure the division of labor is clear, it's that why piece because you both said we want to do this because it's fun and because we like each other. Heather Vickery (24:50) Yes. Becky Mollenkamp (24:51) And like Heather Vickery (24:51) Yes. Becky Mollenkamp (24:52) I think understanding what the why is is also really important. So why we're doing this, right? And then how Heather Vickery (24:57) Absolutely. Becky Mollenkamp (24:58) the how is also important. But if we don't understand the why, because if you're if one of you is like, I just want to have fun, and one of you is like, this needs to make money, those are two very different approaches. Heather Vickery (25:08) big time. Big time. Yes. Becky Mollenkamp (25:10) Yeah. And you guys on like at the heart of it, you've been on the same page. So all the other small things that come up are usually workable because you're still on the same page. Do you guys have an Heather Vickery (25:18) Yeah. I I mean Becky Mollenkamp (25:20) off go ahead. Heather Vickery (25:21) yeah, I was gonna say there just really aren't a lot of small things, but maybe it's related to to the question you were gonna ask. Do we have a what? Becky Mollenkamp (25:25) No, no, no. My I'm just curious, do you guys have an off ramp? Have you talked about what would be the end? What might bring it about? No, it makes you sad to think about it. Heather Vickery (25:31) No. I don't want to talk about it. No. It makes me so sad to think about it. you know, some of the things that it was never tricky, but before so Alan created a calendy like software called calendar Becky Mollenkamp (25:43) Yes. Heather Vickery (25:44) PA. Prior to him cre it's actually really great if anybody likes it. I highly recommend giving it a go because for podcasters, if you set it up as a podcast, you can connect it with your recording software like Squadcast or Riverside or whatever. And when the interview gets scheduled, the schedule, the link on the software gets scheduled. So it's like a good time saver. But before we had that, where we could both, cause you can do, you know, multiple calendars. It'll look at multiple calendars. It'll show you the cross availability. We had like every other Tuesday and every other Friday blocked off once a week to do interviews. And it was like, is that time still available? There was some negotiation on. merging two calendars, which was kind of tricky. that was probably the only thing that was ever even really tricky, but then he tech's that problem, as Alan is wont to do. Becky Mollenkamp (26:34) Yeah. So for now, no no plans to exit. What about going back to a solo show? Has it lost its shine for you? Do you ever still kind of get the little itch to be like, I wanna maybe do this thing on my own? Some in addition Heather Vickery (26:47) So here's Becky Mollenkamp (26:47) to Heather Vickery (26:48) here's a scenario where I would do a solo show. If a a a publication or a company that had a platform said, We want you to be the face in the in the host of this show, I might say yes. For me to do it by myself with all the promotion and all of the work involved, I don't see that happening. Becky Mollenkamp (27:07) Yeah. This experience has been great for you because it's sort of taking it's giving you in a in a sense, a feeling of what that's like, right? Where you don't have to do Heather Vickery (27:17) Absolutely. Becky Mollenkamp (27:18) the other stuff that because for many people, now not for everyone, for some people they excel in the admin part and the other stuff that's scary. Same z's. Heather Vickery (27:25) It ain't me. Becky Mollenkamp (27:28) So for a lot of us though, it is the admin stuff that is the stuff that can bog us down. And if you can find a partnership where those things work. Really well, where you get one of each of you, then that can be really great. But obviously, Heather Vickery (27:39) Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (27:40) I think don't rush into a partnership without at least thinking about. Heather Vickery (27:43) I would agree. Yeah. I would agree. We our situation I think is a little bit unique. it just worked out really well for us. But I would be I would be thoughtful about it. Becky Mollenkamp (27:52) Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of people I I I have two co-hosted shows and love doing it with co-hosts. One is with Taina, it's very much similar to you guys. I just was like, I want to have conversations with this person every week. So how do I make that happen? And it's largely just her and I without even a guest. We just love being in conversation. I love being in conversation with Faith as well, Faith Clark, who I do yes and otherwise with. But with her, it's about what she brings to the conversations with guests that I was missing. In the conversations I was having. And I just can't, I mean, you can't put a price tag on some of the things that you can get out of those partnerships. But at the heart of both of those partnerships, we have a very clear understanding that our capacity and our individual needs will always come first above above the show. And like, and Heather Vickery (28:31) Yes. Becky Mollenkamp (28:32) the same way you guys, if it goes a month, it goes a month. That it's not worth jeopardizing our friendships or getting upset with each other or anything else. Like it's a podcast. It can wait if it needs to, right? And so that's that's the thing I think that makes it work for us. Yeah. Heather Vickery (28:42) It can wait. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, we can't be too uptight. that this is what I was gonna say. For Alan and I, I think what's been interesting is he really helps me get out of my comfort zone, which is really funny, right? Because I'm a professional keynote speaker and I'm on camera all the time and I do all these things. But Becky Mollenkamp (29:00) You're all about being brave. Heather Vickery (29:03) I I am a little like we already said, buttoned up. Like I I can't Becky Mollenkamp (29:06) Yeah. Heather Vickery (29:06) and he He pulls out sort of the fun, playful side in me and and I think I pull out the more like thoughtful, I don't want to say intelligent that sounds bad, but right, like like it allows him to look at things from perspectives he's literally never thought of before because it's very different. And we can have, and this is why he and I can be part of the feminist podcasters collective together is we can have really intense conversations where I call out straight white men, which he happens to be like. And he's like, yeah, that's yes, absolutely. Like we it's just a really nice yin and yang between the two of us. Becky Mollenkamp (29:42) Yeah. And I think for both of us at the heart of things, values is what matters most. And if your values aligned, Heather Vickery (29:46) Absolutely. Becky Mollenkamp (29:48) then the chances of it leading to a disintegrated friendship aren't likely as long as you bec you know, communication is key in any relationship, including a co-hosted partnership for a podcast and just making sure you're Heather Vickery (29:59) Absolutely. Becky Mollenkamp (30:00) always communicating. So for anybody who's thinking about it, I would say yes. Co host a show if it's gonna help you get it done, as long Heather Vickery (30:04) Yes and Becky Mollenkamp (30:06) as, yeah, you both understand why you're doing it, you understand the division of labor, and it's somebody you know you can communicate openly with, because that's really important. Anything you would add to that list? Yeah. Heather Vickery (30:13) Yeah. Absolutely. No, I totally agree. But I would do the labor up front to figure out again who's responsible for what and what your litmus tests are. And you know, it's just you have to be good communicators. There's one episode we did, one interview we did that we never aired. And when I did the brave files, there was one interview that I just never aired. I was like, That something doesn't feel good about that, and just like I'm gonna pull the plug on that. so just be able to talk to each other and also like I said before, I just really think like I love podcasting. I love the podcaster community. The podcaster community has probably been my favorite community of all times. And it's been a couple of years since I went to any of the live conferences, but you know, I spoke at She Podcast back when that was a thing. And I don't know, it's just it's such a loving community of people who do this because we just want to talk about what we want to talk about and not. necessarily because we have these high aspirations for getting famous or making money, because that's really not probably gonna happen. I mean, not really, maybe, but not likely. and so I am just grateful to that I get to be part of the community. And that would be as big a loss if we had for some reason had to stop our show as the show would be. So I don't know, maybe I'd try to find another co-hosted show. But I'm not I'm not bringing any of that into the universe because was it chance forever? Becky Mollenkamp (31:31) And tell people what's the show about because I don't know that we've fully explained that, and then where can they find it? Heather Vickery (31:36) yeah. So Was It Chance is the podcast about taking intentional risk for creative success. So what we do is we talk to highly successful creatives and and creative is defined widely. It started with a lot of Broadway people and actors and Becky Mollenkamp (31:47) Broadway. Yeah. Heather Vickery (31:48) singers because of BPN and we had that network. it gave me the guts to reach out to a lot of authors. We have a ton of authors, but we've also got all kinds of other cool creatives. Who have really made a name for themselves, at least in their own circle, maybe not household names, but in the work that they do. And we talk about the intentional risks and the opportunities. And there's a lot of it we kind of get a little woo sometimes. Like, did you manifest that? Did you create it? Or, you know, when when this bad thing happened, what did it open the door for that turned out to be great? and we just have such a cool time talking to people about how they ended up where they are and Some of the stories are very similar and some are so different. We actually added, I don't even think the first episode of this has aired yet, but we we added in a fast five at the end, which is hilarious. Becky Mollenkamp (32:33) Hm. Heather Vickery (32:35) kind of like a lightning round. So that's fun. And yeah, it's all about embracing opportunity, taking intentional risk and how that changes our lives. If we just if we never do anything differently, nothing different's ever gonna happen. My daughter hates that. If nothing changes, nothing changes. But it's true. We do. Was it chance? Becky Mollenkamp (32:47) I love it. And do you have a website? Or where does a chance.com. Heather Vickery (32:52) Dot com. Becky Mollenkamp (32:53) Perfect. Easy to find then. Thank you for doing this, Heather. Tell Alan I said hello. And Heather Vickery (32:57) I will Becky Mollenkamp (32:59) yes. And thank you both for putting out a great show. And if anyone's interested in joining Alan and Heather in the Feminist Podcasters collective, you can go to feministpods.com Heather Vickery (33:07) Yes. Becky Mollenkamp (33:08) and check us out because it's a really supportive community. of indie podcasters who are just again trying to get their voices heard in a very noisy market and who also really care about amplifying voices that don't often get heard in any space. So thank you for having this conversation with me, Heather, and thank you for anyone Heather Vickery (33:20) Absolutely. Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (33:23) listening. Heather Vickery (33:24) So fun. Thanks.