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Offline: Roxane Gay on Why People Are So Awful Online · Pod Save America

0:00
Speaker 1: Whenever people want to supposedly engage with me, what they
0:03
Speaker 1: really want to do is share their pet perspective and
0:07
Speaker 1: tell me that I'm wrong. And that's actually not engagement.
0:11
Speaker 1: So feel free to tell me that I'm wrong, but
0:13
Speaker 1: you're not really looking for a conversation. You're looking for
0:16
Speaker 1: affirmation of your point of view and acknowledgement. And I
0:21
Speaker 1: don't think, actually, I know it's not my job to
0:23
Speaker 1: do that for you. You have to figure that out
0:26
Speaker 1: on your own. And so, you know, the internet is
0:31
Speaker 1: a mess. It's just a mess.
0:34
Speaker 2: I'm Jon Favreau. Welcome to Offline. Hey, everyone. My guest
0:40
Speaker 2: this week is Roxanne Gay, a New York Times bestselling author, writer, professor,
0:46
Speaker 2: and social commentator who's been especially vocal about the topic
0:49
Speaker 2: of this series. A while back, Roxanne wrote a Times
0:53
Speaker 2: piece titled, Why People Are So Awful Online. I've always
0:57
Speaker 2: been a fan of Roxanne's writing, but this piece caught
1:00
Speaker 2: my attention for obvious reasons. And I thought that one
1:03
Speaker 2: part in particular was especially sharp and worth talking more about. Quote, Lately,
1:09
Speaker 2: I've been thinking that what drives so much of the
1:11
Speaker 2: anger and antagonism online is our helplessness offline. Online, we
1:17
Speaker 2: want to be good, to do good. But despite these
1:19
Speaker 2: lofty moral aspirations, there is little generosity or patience, let
1:24
Speaker 2: alone human kindness. There is a desperate yearning for emotional safety.
1:29
Speaker 2: There is a desperate hope that if we all become
1:31
Speaker 2: perfect enough and demand the same perfection from others, there
1:35
Speaker 2: will be no more harm or suffering. It is infuriating.
1:39
Speaker 2: It is also entirely understandable. Some days, as I am
1:42
Speaker 2: reading the news, I feel as if I am drowning.
1:45
Speaker 2: I think most of us do. At least online, we
1:48
Speaker 2: can use our voices and know they can be heard
1:50
Speaker 2: by someone. End quote. Roxanne is someone who has certainly
1:56
Speaker 2: used her voice online to great effect. She currently has
1:59
Speaker 2: nearly 900,000 followers on Twitter. She's been in her share
2:03
Speaker 2: of arguments and debates, but as a queer black woman,
2:06
Speaker 2: she's also endured more than her share of online harassment
2:09
Speaker 2: from all kinds of trollish assholes. And so over the
2:13
Speaker 2: last several months, she's been trying to spend less time
2:16
Speaker 2: on Twitter and more time writing and living life. I
2:20
Speaker 2: caught up with her about how that's going. We discuss
2:22
Speaker 2: what she used to like about Twitter, why people have
2:25
Speaker 2: become so awful online, her distinction between cancel culture and
2:29
Speaker 2: consequence culture, her thoughts on Joe Rogan and Dave Chappelle,
2:33
Speaker 2: how being very online has changed the way we both write,
2:37
Speaker 2: and what to do about a country that's currently grappling
2:39
Speaker 2: with the collective trauma of the past two years. As always,
2:44
Speaker 2: if you have questions, comments, or complaints about the show,
2:46
Speaker 2: feel free to email us at offline at crooked.com. Here's
2:50
Speaker 2: Roxane Gay. Roxanne Gay, thank you for taking the time.
2:59
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
3:01
Speaker 2: So I've been doing this show about all the ways
3:03
Speaker 2: the internet is breaking our brain. And when I started,
3:07
Speaker 2: I made a potential guest list of really cool, smart,
3:12
Speaker 2: accomplished people who I've also seen complain about the internet.
3:15
Speaker 2: And you were right at the top. So you wrote
3:19
Speaker 2: a fantastic New York Times piece last July about the internet.
3:22
Speaker 2: titled Why People Are So Awful Online. You were so
3:24
Speaker 2: good in 15 Minutes of Shame, Monica Lewinsky's documentary about
3:28
Speaker 2: public shaming. But of course, you've been on Twitter for
3:30
Speaker 2: a long time where you've built a huge following. Do
3:33
Speaker 2: you remember when you joined Twitter?
3:35
Speaker 1: I joined Twitter, I think 2007. I was in graduate
3:40
Speaker 1: school in Michigan's Upper Peninsula and didn't really know many people,
3:46
Speaker 1: though I did certainly know my classmates and that was great.
3:49
Speaker 1: but there were not a lot of opportunities for socializing,
3:53
Speaker 1: and especially socializing with people who liked books and things
3:58
Speaker 1: like that. And so it was really great to feel
4:01
Speaker 1: like I was at a cocktail party in my pajamas,
4:05
Speaker 1: and to also just be able to talk to writers
4:08
Speaker 1: that I really admired and feel connected to a literary
4:13
Speaker 1: community in some way.
4:15
Speaker 2: Do you remember when you started thinking that Twitter... was
4:19
Speaker 2: getting bad?
4:20
Speaker 1: I think probably in 2016. I think there was something
4:28
Speaker 1: about that election that broke a lot of people. And
4:32
Speaker 1: once Trump was elected, whatever veneer of civility existed was
4:37
Speaker 1: completely obliterated. And I would say that on all sides.
4:40
Speaker 1: I think everyone just decided, oh, this is the world
4:43
Speaker 1: that we live in now. It's a free-for-all. Let's go
4:46
Speaker 1: for it.
4:47
Speaker 2: I think the same thing. It was around 2016. And
4:49
Speaker 2: I think during that election and then even in the
4:51
Speaker 2: years after, there was part of me that hoped maybe
4:54
Speaker 2: this was just an effective Trump. But I don't think
4:59
Speaker 2: Twitter has gotten any better. In fact, I think it's
5:00
Speaker 2: gotten worse.
5:02
Speaker 1: I think it has gotten worse because once you open
5:05
Speaker 1: this kind of door, I don't know that there's any
5:07
Speaker 1: closing it.
5:08
Speaker 2: I hope there is.
5:10
Speaker 1: But I think everyone is aggrieved now in one way
5:15
Speaker 1: or another. And I think that people are using that
5:19
Speaker 1: aggrievement as justification for being cruel in the name of
5:27
Speaker 1: truth or justice or whatever they want to justify for themselves.
5:35
Speaker 1: And it's sad, actually.
5:39
Speaker 2: What was your experience like on Twitter when you finally
5:42
Speaker 2: decided to step back and spend a little less time
5:45
Speaker 2: on social media?
5:47
Speaker 1: I just hit a wall. I just didn't like the
5:49
Speaker 1: person I was becoming. It was more than just the
5:54
Speaker 1: constant harassment and cruelty. I was finding myself becoming pettier
6:03
Speaker 1: and pettier and just You know, just like that need
6:09
Speaker 1: to have the last word. And I love being right.
6:13
Speaker 1: There are a few things I love more than being right.
6:16
Speaker 1: And I hate when people misinterpret me or misstate my positions.
6:22
Speaker 1: And so I was in this constant mode of like correction.
6:25
Speaker 1: And I have never been one to look up myself.
6:29
Speaker 1: I don't search my name on Twitter. I never have
6:31
Speaker 1: because I don't want to know. honestly. If you're talking
6:37
Speaker 1: shit about me, that's really none of my business. I
6:40
Speaker 1: only ever see it when people tag me into it.
6:44
Speaker 1: And when that happens, I can't help but to figure
6:48
Speaker 1: out why, like what's being said. And I would just
6:53
Speaker 1: go down these toxic rabbit holes of people who clearly
6:59
Speaker 1: just don't like me and were looking for excuses that
7:03
Speaker 1: would make it supposedly like safe for them to air
7:06
Speaker 1: that dislike and so I just realized this isn't who
7:11
Speaker 1: I am this is not how I want to be
7:14
Speaker 1: in the world this has nothing to do with my
7:17
Speaker 1: actual work and so I'm trying and it's a process
7:22
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to unclench and to just you know
7:25
Speaker 1: so what if someone's out there misrepresenting something I've said
7:30
Speaker 1: or what I believe you know my work speaks for
7:32
Speaker 1: itself and And I'm just trusting in my work now
7:36
Speaker 1: and also trying to develop, I mean, I've always had
7:41
Speaker 1: hobbies and interests outside of the internet, thank God. And
7:45
Speaker 1: so I'm just spending more time doing the kinds of
7:47
Speaker 1: things that I actually want to be doing.
7:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I made the mistake of thinking that, um, like
7:56
Speaker 2: arguments on Twitter, um, were things that you could win
8:01
Speaker 2: or that like people could be reasoned with or that
8:04
Speaker 2: I guess some of these arguments were on the level
8:06
Speaker 2: when someone was like criticizing you're coming after you and
8:08
Speaker 2: I would go into the mentions and I would reply
8:10
Speaker 2: to people not to try to be an asshole back
8:13
Speaker 2: to them but to try to say like oh maybe
8:15
Speaker 2: I'll convince someone why I was right or maybe I'll
8:18
Speaker 2: have an interesting debate or conversation and pretty soon you
8:20
Speaker 2: realize like that's just not possible like that's not what
8:23
Speaker 2: the platform is for and that's not really what the
8:25
Speaker 2: platform facilitates.
8:27
Speaker 1: It isn't and I also find that people tend to
8:33
Speaker 1: want to debate what I've written. And for me, the
8:37
Speaker 1: beginning and end of my engagement with a subject is
8:40
Speaker 1: the essay that I've published. I don't have more interest
8:45
Speaker 1: than that, unless I'm, of course, at an event or
8:49
Speaker 1: talking with friends and colleagues. And people tend to get
8:53
Speaker 1: really disappointed that whatever I'm writing about isn't my lifelong passion.
9:00
Speaker 1: And it's like, I have many interests and as a
9:03
Speaker 1: cultural critic, I'm going to write about many things, but
9:06
Speaker 1: I don't owe you engagement beyond the work. And I'm
9:10
Speaker 1: just reminding myself of that more and more that the
9:15
Speaker 1: work is engagement enough.
9:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. Well, and even if someone wanted to
9:21
Speaker 2: engage with an opinion I have on the pod or
9:24
Speaker 2: anything like that, and it's an individual and we're one-on-one,
9:28
Speaker 2: I'd be happy to have that conversation. But that's not
9:30
Speaker 2: what engagement is on social media. When you engage with
9:33
Speaker 2: one person, you are then once again going fully public
9:37
Speaker 2: with that engagement. And it's an audience of people that
9:40
Speaker 2: are going to hear that that probably don't necessarily need
9:43
Speaker 2: to hear that.
9:44
Speaker 1: Yeah. And, you know, the reality is that I just
9:49
Speaker 1: find that there's not a lot of good faith engagement.
9:51
Speaker 1: Whenever people want to supposedly engage with me, what they
9:54
Speaker 1: really want to do is share their pet perspective. And
9:59
Speaker 1: tell me that I'm wrong. And that's actually not engagement.
10:02
Speaker 1: So feel free to tell me that I'm wrong, but
10:04
Speaker 1: you're not really looking for a conversation. You're looking for
10:08
Speaker 1: affirmation of your point of view and acknowledgement. And I
10:12
Speaker 1: don't think, actually, I know it's not my job to
10:15
Speaker 1: do that for you. You have to figure that out
10:17
Speaker 1: on your own. And so, you know, the internet is
10:22
Speaker 1: a mess. It's just a mess. You know, and I
10:26
Speaker 1: think that a lot of it is because the people
10:30
Speaker 1: who created internet platforms sort of decided that they were
10:33
Speaker 1: not going to tend to the gardens that they built.
10:36
Speaker 1: Anything can go. Let's go ahead and build weeds. Fuck civility.
10:43
Speaker 1: Of course, white supremacy on these platforms is fine. Misinformation?
10:46
Speaker 2: Cool.
10:47
Speaker 1: And we're seeing the result of that. We're seeing what
10:50
Speaker 1: a lack of taste and curation becomes. And that's not
10:55
Speaker 1: even referring to some of these pettier, more aggravating day-to-day interactions,
11:01
Speaker 1: but the kind of energy that enables people to think, yes,
11:06
Speaker 1: I'm going to say this absolutely ridiculous thing to this
11:10
Speaker 1: person I disagree with. Because why not? Because I can.
11:15
Speaker 1: And I think that most people don't have that kind
11:18
Speaker 1: of outlet anywhere else.
11:21
Speaker 2: Well, yeah. And also, you know, you hear the argument
11:24
Speaker 2: from the platform people that, that this is simply a
11:28
Speaker 2: reflection of human nature and society, and that it's just
11:32
Speaker 2: sort of like a neutral public square where everyone's just
11:35
Speaker 2: arguing and being themselves. But I don't think that quite
11:38
Speaker 2: gets it for a few reasons. One is the amplification
11:42
Speaker 2: and the reach of social media, which is not the
11:44
Speaker 2: same as when you're just in person with someone. And also,
11:47
Speaker 2: like you said, I think one of the reasons that
11:50
Speaker 2: people think that they can get away with saying whatever
11:53
Speaker 2: they want about someone else is You don't have to
11:55
Speaker 2: see that person. You're not in a physical space with
11:58
Speaker 2: that person, so you don't have to see the person
12:00
Speaker 2: become upset when you criticize them or worse. And that
12:06
Speaker 2: anonymity helps people just be monsters and then scroll right
12:09
Speaker 2: past it and never think about the interaction again.
12:13
Speaker 1: And I think that anonymity, that sort of isolation, that
12:18
Speaker 1: digital isolation– Really allows people to forget that we are
12:24
Speaker 1: actually talking to other human beings and that they have feelings.
12:28
Speaker 1: And frankly, that there are consequences for what you say.
12:31
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of times people do internalize some
12:38
Speaker 1: of the things that are said, which is one of
12:40
Speaker 1: the reasons I had to pull back. Like the cruel
12:43
Speaker 1: things that people say, of course I can say, oh,
12:45
Speaker 1: that's just a troll, yada, yada, yada. But sometimes it
12:49
Speaker 1: really does hurt. It really is just breathtaking. Like, wow,
12:55
Speaker 1: why would you say that? That's not good. You know, like,
13:01
Speaker 1: why would I subject my, this is something I've talked
13:04
Speaker 1: about in therapy. Like, she's always like, why would you
13:06
Speaker 1: subject yourself to this? Because she's not online at all.
13:09
Speaker 1: And that's a really useful perspective to see someone who's like, Really,
13:14
Speaker 1: why are you stabbing yourself in the eyes with little
13:17
Speaker 1: needles all day long? It's not necessary. You don't have
13:21
Speaker 1: to be punished. You're not, you know, you don't deserve this.
13:24
Speaker 1: And that's a really useful thing to understand that you
13:29
Speaker 1: don't actually have to subject yourself to people's opinions simply
13:33
Speaker 1: because you dare to have opinions of your own.
13:37
Speaker 2: In your Times piece, you laid out a theory as
13:39
Speaker 2: to why people are so nasty online, which I found
13:41
Speaker 2: very compelling. that it's fueled by what you call the
13:44
Speaker 2: hopelessness that many people feel when we consider the state
13:47
Speaker 2: of the world. And you write, in real life, we
13:50
Speaker 2: are fearful David staring down seemingly omnipotent Goliaths. What do
13:54
Speaker 2: you think it is about online spaces that make us feel,
13:58
Speaker 2: at least initially, more powerful or in control?
14:03
Speaker 1: I think the lack of boundaries, the perception of the
14:07
Speaker 1: lack of limits, the idea that we can sort of
14:15
Speaker 1: say anything, do anything, be anything. I mean, that's changed
14:19
Speaker 1: a little bit in that now that people tend to
14:21
Speaker 1: present as themselves rather than as avatars or whatever. But
14:27
Speaker 1: I think there's just this lack of boundaries that people
14:30
Speaker 1: find empowering. And then, of course, there are people who
14:34
Speaker 1: just take it too far, who think, well, anything goes.
14:38
Speaker 1: This doesn't really matter. So I'm going to say my
14:41
Speaker 1: worst thoughts. And my worst opinions. And you can see
14:47
Speaker 1: that people are actually holding back quite a lot for
14:52
Speaker 1: the sake of civility in their day-to-day lives. And Trump
14:55
Speaker 1: has really opened that door, like we were mentioning earlier.
14:59
Speaker 1: And so now I think there's almost this glee behind
15:04
Speaker 1: just airing out every terrible thought you've ever had and
15:12
Speaker 1: I think at some point everyone has to really take
15:18
Speaker 1: a step back and ask themselves, wow, why are we
15:25
Speaker 1: so comfortable being terrible? And I don't know that many
15:32
Speaker 1: of us are willing to ask that question, but I
15:35
Speaker 1: think a lot of times the answer is simply because
15:37
Speaker 1: we can.
15:44
Speaker 2: You talk about sort of this hopelessness and this feeling
15:47
Speaker 2: of powerlessness that you have in the real world sometimes.
15:50
Speaker 2: And then I think online, sometimes we think that like
15:53
Speaker 2: the public forum on Twitter or whatever social media platform
15:58
Speaker 2: can be a substitute for like the democratic process. You know,
16:01
Speaker 2: like Kelly Weil, who's a Daily Beast reporter who wrote
16:04
Speaker 2: a book on conspiracy culture, she tweeted the other day
16:07
Speaker 2: that the whole Joe Rogan Spotify controversy is a reminder
16:10
Speaker 2: that quote, so many U.S. political conflicts are just proxy
16:13
Speaker 2: battles through customer service complaints, and that in a disempowered electorate,
16:17
Speaker 2: what passes for power is a consumer who leaves an
16:20
Speaker 2: unfavorable Yelp review. What do you think about that?
16:23
Speaker 1: I'm actually writing an essay right now about that very
16:26
Speaker 1: topic for the Times. Because I do think that we're
16:33
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of consumer politics play out. And, you know, it's...
16:39
Speaker 1: It's happening at a lot of different levels. And I
16:42
Speaker 1: think it's because so many people feel disenfranchised. And I
16:45
Speaker 1: think so many of us understand that in a capitalistic world,
16:48
Speaker 1: the only power we really have is not, in fact,
16:51
Speaker 1: our vote. It is how we spend our dollars. And
16:56
Speaker 1: the idea that because we spend our money, we deserve
17:00
Speaker 1: to be heard. And I think it's sad, actually, that
17:04
Speaker 1: this is what people have decided is power. And In
17:11
Speaker 1: some ways it can work. Like, I think what's happening
17:16
Speaker 1: with Spotify, like I actually pulled my podcast from Spotify today, um,
17:21
Speaker 1: is what we see with uncurated gardens where people are like,
17:24
Speaker 1: I'm fine with the weeds. And, you know, I think
17:29
Speaker 1: that there are consumers who just think, why am I
17:31
Speaker 1: going to give you $ 10 a month to allow your
17:33
Speaker 1: garden to be untended? And, you know, $ 10 a month
17:44
Speaker 1: means nothing to Spotify, but a million people paying $ 10
17:49
Speaker 1: a month who stop starts to mean something. And so
17:54
Speaker 1: in some ways it kind of works, this idea of
17:57
Speaker 1: consumer politics, but in other ways you just think, man,
18:01
Speaker 1: is this all we have?
18:02
Speaker 2: Really?
18:02
Speaker 1: Is this really all we have? How sad.
18:05
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that's what I've been wrestling with this as well,
18:09
Speaker 2: because I understand the impulse to pressure Spotify on this.
18:14
Speaker 2: I think Spotify's whole argument that they're just some neutral platform, right?
18:20
Speaker 2: They signed the deal with Rogan to get more subscribers.
18:23
Speaker 2: They are in the editorial content business now. They're not
18:26
Speaker 2: a platform, so they don't get off the hook. But
18:29
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, if our ultimate goal, I mean, I
18:32
Speaker 2: come at it from the political angle, if our ultimate
18:33
Speaker 2: goal is to reduce the spread of misinformation about the
18:37
Speaker 2: vaccines or also increased trust in the vaccines. If so
18:42
Speaker 2: many people pulled out of Spotify, whether it's artists or
18:45
Speaker 2: people just canceling Spotify, that Spotify felt pressured to boot
18:48
Speaker 2: Rogan off the platform. Would that reduce the spread of
18:51
Speaker 2: misinformation about vaccines or increase trust? Because then Rogan has,
18:55
Speaker 2: you know, probably just as large of a platform somewhere else.
18:58
Speaker 2: And he's got this big audience. I wonder if this
19:00
Speaker 2: sort of consumer oriented politics is And it's like understandable.
19:05
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if it's effective.
19:06
Speaker 1: No, I don't think it is. Um, I think it
19:09
Speaker 1: can be, I do. Um, but the reality is that
19:14
Speaker 1: we can only do so much. And the reality is
19:20
Speaker 1: that if it's not Spotify, it's going to be somewhere else.
19:24
Speaker 1: And that there is also, there's no ideal platform. Every
19:30
Speaker 1: platform hosts terrible people. I think Jordan Peterson's podcast is
19:35
Speaker 1: on Apple and wherever else podcasts are available. So I
19:41
Speaker 1: think some of us just take stands and just decide,
19:42
Speaker 1: you know what, of course he's going to flourish no
19:45
Speaker 1: matter what. But I personally don't want to do business
19:48
Speaker 1: with a company that's fine with allowing that sort of
19:50
Speaker 1: misinformation to flourish. I don't even know that Joe Rogan's
19:57
Speaker 1: podcast shouldn't... It should definitely exist if people want it.
20:02
Speaker 1: I mean, there's clearly demand, so he's supplying that demand.
20:07
Speaker 1: But I do think that there have to be limits.
20:10
Speaker 1: I do think that Spotify has to say, you know what,
20:12
Speaker 1: we're taking these episodes with misinformation down and the rest
20:17
Speaker 1: can stay up. Because he's allowed to have his opinions
20:21
Speaker 1: and he's allowed to sway his followers. But I don't
20:25
Speaker 1: think that he's allowed in this climate. To spread such
20:29
Speaker 1: rank misinformation, because the reality is that over the past
20:33
Speaker 1: two years, we've had people taking ivermectin and injecting themselves
20:36
Speaker 1: with bleach and doing all kinds of batshit things. And
20:40
Speaker 1: it's because of misinformation. You know, the January 6th insurrection
20:46
Speaker 1: happened because of misinformation. There are measurable consequences. And I
20:53
Speaker 1: can't imagine why any company would want to be culpable
20:57
Speaker 1: in that. Yeah.
20:59
Speaker 2: I know we're touching on a subject that's very familiar
21:02
Speaker 2: to you, cancel culture, which you call consequence culture, a
21:07
Speaker 2: term of yours that I have cited multiple times in
21:09
Speaker 2: these offline interviews. I want to talk about that. But first,
21:12
Speaker 2: you said in the 15 Minutes of Shame doc that
21:15
Speaker 2: people ask you about cancel culture like once a day.
21:18
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is? Have you ever wondered
21:20
Speaker 2: why you've become a go-to person on the subject of
21:23
Speaker 2: cancel culture?
21:23
Speaker 1: I think it's because.
21:25
Speaker 2: I'm sure you love it.
21:26
Speaker 1: Oh, it's my favorite thing ever. I think it's because
21:29
Speaker 1: I have a lot of opinions. And a few years ago,
21:33
Speaker 1: I pulled a book from Simon & Schuster because they
21:37
Speaker 1: were going to publish a book from Milo Yiannopoulos, and
21:40
Speaker 1: they had paid him an extraordinary amount of money to
21:43
Speaker 1: do so. And I just thought, wow, I'm not doing
21:47
Speaker 1: business with them. That's just such a lack of taste.
21:51
Speaker 1: And I think ever since then, people... have decided that
21:55
Speaker 1: I have thoughts and opinions on cancel culture. And I,
21:59
Speaker 1: you know, I do, but I don't have a constant
22:01
Speaker 1: need to comment on the issue because cancel culture does
22:05
Speaker 1: not exist really. It, you know, and quite frankly, the
22:09
Speaker 1: people that get canceled are not the people who cry
22:12
Speaker 1: about it. You know, people tried to cancel, for example,
22:17
Speaker 1: Nicole Hannah Jones for the 1619 project. They have spent
22:22
Speaker 1: two or three years nitpicking every single thing in that project,
22:27
Speaker 1: simply because she dared to assert that slavery is a
22:31
Speaker 1: fundamental part of the fabric of the United States, which
22:34
Speaker 1: is a fact. And people are trying to cancel the
22:40
Speaker 1: Holocaust because it's too uncomfortable. to imagine that such atrocities
22:46
Speaker 1: were possible. We're seeing schools in Texas try to cancel
22:50
Speaker 1: slavery by saying that there are two sides to slavery.
22:54
Speaker 1: And so if we're going to talk about cancel culture,
22:57
Speaker 1: let's do it. But let's talk about where it's actually happening.
23:01
Speaker 1: It's not happening to Joe Rogan, who's being paid $ 100
23:04
Speaker 1: million to not prepare for his podcast, his own words.
23:10
Speaker 1: He does not prepare for any episode. He just shows up.
23:15
Speaker 1: and is himself. Which, wow, congratulations. Nice work if you
23:19
Speaker 1: can get it.
23:22
Speaker 2: I mean, have you thought about how collectively, like, we
23:27
Speaker 2: can dole out consequences to people who do awful things
23:34
Speaker 2: that are just in proportional since, you know, the court
23:38
Speaker 2: of public opinion has no laws and the jurors are
23:41
Speaker 2: basically like whoever shows up at any given moment. So
23:44
Speaker 2: it's like, it's a wild west out there. Yes.
23:48
Speaker 1: I think that we, I think that's one of the
23:54
Speaker 1: questions we need to answer. I do think that we
23:57
Speaker 1: have a significant problem with calibration.
24:01
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:01
Speaker 1: That when someone makes a misstep, we are treating that
24:05
Speaker 1: person the same as we treat Bill Cosby. And it's
24:09
Speaker 1: just like, wow, can we please get a little perspective here?
24:13
Speaker 1: And so how do we calibrate consequences? And for whatever reason,
24:17
Speaker 1: people are all or nothing. And I hope, I hope
24:22
Speaker 1: that we can have those conversations and think of justice
24:27
Speaker 1: in restorative terms and make sure that we provide paths
24:33
Speaker 1: for redemption. Because we're all going to make mistakes. And
24:38
Speaker 1: I don't think that, depending on the mistake, I don't
24:44
Speaker 1: think that lives should be ruined because of one mistake.
24:51
Speaker 1: Unless that mistake is really bad. In which case, yeah,
24:55
Speaker 1: your life probably deserves to be ruined for a while.
24:59
Speaker 1: But no, we just scale in proportion. Like what happened
25:02
Speaker 1: to that?
25:02
Speaker 2: I mean, you've also pointed out that online shaming is
25:07
Speaker 2: quite different from online harassment, even though there's a tendency
25:10
Speaker 2: to equate the two or to just focus more on
25:13
Speaker 2: the shaming than on the harassment. Why do you think
25:16
Speaker 2: that is?
25:18
Speaker 1: Because I think that people are more afraid of being
25:24
Speaker 1: shamed than they are of being harassed. I think they
25:27
Speaker 1: don't think harassment is something that's ever going to happen
25:29
Speaker 1: to them. So it's that problem over there. But with shaming, like,
25:34
Speaker 1: No matter what you do on the internet, people are like,
25:36
Speaker 1: don't shame me. Like today, and I had to just stop,
25:41
Speaker 1: but I was talking to a woman. This woman was
25:44
Speaker 1: talking at me, rather, about, she had said something like,
25:49
Speaker 1: thank you for taking your podcast down, Roxanne. I hope
25:53
Speaker 1: you learned some lessons, Brene Brown. And I was just like,
25:55
Speaker 1: first of all, what?
26:00
Speaker 2: Wow.
26:01
Speaker 1: Brene was like the first podcaster who decided, for at
26:05
Speaker 1: least some time to pause her shows on Spotify until
26:09
Speaker 1: they clarify and implement their curation policy. And so for
26:14
Speaker 1: her to say that to Brene Brown was weird. And
26:18
Speaker 1: I also said, why are you pitting people who are
26:21
Speaker 1: aligned politically against one another? It just felt weird and
26:26
Speaker 1: random and wildly unnecessary. And she said, stop trying to
26:30
Speaker 1: shame me. And I was just like, wow.
26:35
Speaker 2: Like, I was just asking you a question, actually. Yeah.
26:38
Speaker 2: And you started it.
26:39
Speaker 1: That's the thing. And when people say that, I actually
26:42
Speaker 1: end the engagement immediately because they've placed themselves in the
26:46
Speaker 1: role of victim. There's no opportunity for accountability or self-reflection.
26:51
Speaker 1: And I'm just going to get angrier and pettier. And why?
26:56
Speaker 2: Really, why?
26:57
Speaker 1: To prove that this person's wrong on the internet?
27:00
Speaker 2: No. Yeah, what does that get you? I mean, one
27:03
Speaker 2: of the reasons I think that cancel culture is a
27:04
Speaker 2: pretty useless term is that, you know, people use it
27:06
Speaker 2: to describe everything from someone losing their job to someone
27:09
Speaker 2: just being criticized online. And I will say that of
27:12
Speaker 2: all of the Dave Chappelle special critiques, I found your
27:16
Speaker 2: New York Times piece most persuasive because instead of arguing
27:20
Speaker 2: that the special should be taken down or that Chappelle's
27:22
Speaker 2: comedy was out of bounds, you argued that his comedy
27:25
Speaker 2: was just bad. It's like mostly unfunny, incoherent, offensive, dated.
27:29
Speaker 2: And to me, that was even more damning because if
27:32
Speaker 2: you can't tolerate any kind of criticism about the things
27:35
Speaker 2: you say, like, how frail are you? Was that your
27:38
Speaker 2: thought process there in writing that?
27:40
Speaker 1: That was really my... Well, my first thought process genuinely was, wow,
27:43
Speaker 1: this is not funny.
27:44
Speaker 2: There were definitely some moments.
27:47
Speaker 1: And I'm a fan. I think that Dave Chappelle at
27:50
Speaker 1: his best is fucking brilliant. And that's actually why I care.
27:54
Speaker 1: I don't write about people I don't care about. I'm
27:57
Speaker 1: only disappointed because I.
28:00
Speaker 1: Held him in some esteem. If I didn't care about him,
28:03
Speaker 1: and there are plenty of comedians out there doing lazy,
28:05
Speaker 1: shitty comedy, and whatever, feel free. But I care because
28:10
Speaker 1: he's better than this. And for whatever reason, he has
28:13
Speaker 1: decided to fixate on the LGBTQ community. And it's weird. Like, sir, why?
28:18
Speaker 1: This is not your community, for the first of all.
28:21
Speaker 1: Why are you up in our business? Why are you
28:23
Speaker 1: so obsessed? One might wonder. And, you know... It just,
28:29
Speaker 1: the special was not good. And when we've seen his work,
28:34
Speaker 1: we know what his good looks like. The one he
28:38
Speaker 1: did during COVID, eight minutes, such and such seconds, like
28:42
Speaker 1: that was excellent.
28:44
Speaker 2: Yes.
28:45
Speaker 1: And so, you know, excellence isn't even 20 years ago.
28:49
Speaker 1: His excellence, you know, he's been doing excellent recently. And
28:53
Speaker 1: to then have to compare and contrast it to this.
28:56
Speaker 1: It was just very disappointing. And so I did try
28:58
Speaker 1: to frame my critique within that context because no one's
29:02
Speaker 1: saying that he shouldn't make comedy or that he shouldn't
29:06
Speaker 1: make even comedy on Netflix. But I do think we're saying,
29:10
Speaker 1: especially to a place like Netflix, like, my goodness, what
29:15
Speaker 1: standards do you have when someone is so clearly engaging
29:20
Speaker 1: in transphobia? Why is there no pushback? And the answer
29:25
Speaker 1: is always going to be capitalism. People only have standards
29:28
Speaker 1: when it doesn't cost them too much to do so.
29:37
Speaker 2: You um you have a style of writing i really
29:40
Speaker 2: admire that i think your pin tweet gets that well
29:43
Speaker 2: you say um my tweets are not meant to be
29:45
Speaker 2: universal they will not nor cannot account for every reality
29:49
Speaker 2: if something i say doesn't include or apply to you
29:51
Speaker 2: that doesn't invalidate your truth why is it important for
29:54
Speaker 2: you to let people know that about what you write
29:57
Speaker 2: and believe.
29:59
Speaker 1: Because I think all too often what people want is
30:03
Speaker 1: universal writing, writing that speaks to everything and to everyone.
30:08
Speaker 1: And people have, and I'm writing an entire book about
30:10
Speaker 1: this at some point, people have decided that inclusion means universality.
30:16
Speaker 1: That to be inclusive, everything accounts for everything. And that's
30:20
Speaker 1: actually not what inclusion is. And so I think it's
30:23
Speaker 1: important to clarify that from the outset, that this isn't
30:28
Speaker 1: going to speak to everyone. And this is not going
30:30
Speaker 1: to accommodate every single perspective or intersection of identity, nor
30:37
Speaker 1: should it. Because if you write something that appeals to everyone,
30:42
Speaker 1: you're not really, really doing good work. I would worry
30:45
Speaker 1: about anything that appealed to everyone. And when you look
30:48
Speaker 1: at things that appeal to everyone, they're generally....
30:53
Speaker 2: Just bland. Yes.
30:55
Speaker 1: There's nothing there. They're just bland and terrible and cliched.
31:00
Speaker 1: And so, no, I want to, I've often been called
31:05
Speaker 1: an acquired taste and the older I get, the more
31:07
Speaker 1: I see that as a source of pride.
31:11
Speaker 2: I mean, I used to write speeches. I wrote about
31:14
Speaker 2: politics for a few years after I left the White House.
31:17
Speaker 2: I rarely write now, but when I do, I find
31:19
Speaker 2: that being on social media so much hasn't just affected
31:22
Speaker 2: the way I write, but how I make an argument
31:25
Speaker 2: because I find myself constantly anticipating the criticisms I'll get.
31:30
Speaker 2: Do you ever feel that way?
31:32
Speaker 1: I do, which is the main reason I don't really
31:35
Speaker 1: want to be on Twitter anymore. I have found that
31:39
Speaker 1: I'm stifling a lot of the opinions that I would
31:42
Speaker 1: like to share because I'm afraid of the blowback. And
31:46
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about like, not even people who are diametrically
31:51
Speaker 1: opposed to me, but people who are maybe in the
31:54
Speaker 1: same church as I am. Sometimes that's worse. Yeah, it
31:57
Speaker 1: is worse. And they're oftentimes the loudest voices about like,
32:01
Speaker 1: why didn't you talk about X? And it's because I
32:06
Speaker 1: didn't want to and it wasn't relevant. And so constantly
32:10
Speaker 1: thinking about all of the critiques from people who are
32:13
Speaker 1: both aligned and not Makes me dilute my opinions. Like
32:18
Speaker 1: this essay I'm writing today, I just started writing it.
32:21
Speaker 1: I didn't want to say anything about Joe Rogan because
32:24
Speaker 1: I just know it's going to be a shit show.
32:26
Speaker 1: But I kept thinking and thinking and the essay was
32:30
Speaker 1: writing itself. So I finally decided, okay, I'm just going
32:32
Speaker 1: to write it. And if it's terrible, at least I
32:34
Speaker 1: got it out of my system. But it's not terrible.
32:37
Speaker 1: And so as I'm writing it, I keep thinking, I'm
32:40
Speaker 1: literally not going to be able to go online for
32:42
Speaker 1: a week after I publish this. Because I don't want
32:47
Speaker 1: to hear it. It's not that I don't want to
32:48
Speaker 1: hear disagreement. I just don't want to hear bad disagreement.
32:53
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, most people are bad at disagreeing. Yeah.
32:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just, it becomes like, you know what? It's
33:02
Speaker 2: not worth it. It's not worth the shit that I'm
33:04
Speaker 2: going to go through. But what happens is you do start,
33:08
Speaker 2: I think there's a risk of sanding down your own opinions.
33:12
Speaker 2: But it's also, I mean, it is a social media thing.
33:17
Speaker 2: thing that like for example when I'm recording the podcast
33:22
Speaker 2: I'll be more honest about my opinions and say what
33:24
Speaker 2: I want because people are listening and you know maybe
33:26
Speaker 2: they like might tweet at me and say something here
33:28
Speaker 2: and there and that's fine but it's a lot I
33:31
Speaker 2: can be much more controversial and much more honest recording
33:34
Speaker 2: the podcast than I ever could just like sending out
33:37
Speaker 2: a tweet and putting it in writing because that just
33:39
Speaker 2: sets everyone off which means it's something about the platform
33:41
Speaker 2: and just not something about people yeah.
33:45
Speaker 1: Twitter has, I think Twitter, Facebook, Spotify, really any content platform.
33:55
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them are going to, Substack,
33:58
Speaker 1: are really going to have to have some hard discussions
34:02
Speaker 1: with themselves in the coming years. What kind of place
34:06
Speaker 1: do you want to be? And what kinds of conversations
34:10
Speaker 1: do you want to foster? And how... can you understand
34:17
Speaker 1: that you can have a diversity of intellectual perspectives and
34:22
Speaker 1: ideologies without allowing transphobia, homophobia, racism, and other bigotries, anti-Semitism,
34:33
Speaker 1: you know, without allowing these kinds of things to flourish.
34:36
Speaker 1: And that to do so doesn't mean you're not protecting
34:39
Speaker 1: free speech. And so I hope, I mean, so far
34:42
Speaker 1: we have seen that these platforms are not up to
34:44
Speaker 1: that task. But, you know, maybe something will change.
34:48
Speaker 2: Hope springs eternal. It does. You've written very powerfully and
34:51
Speaker 2: personally about trauma. I've been thinking a lot about how
34:55
Speaker 2: the anger and fear and helplessness that we see online
34:58
Speaker 2: has probably been exacerbated by two years of pandemic stress
35:03
Speaker 2: and isolation. Would you characterize this as a kind of
35:07
Speaker 2: collective trauma? Is that even a thing?
35:10
Speaker 1: It's absolutely a thing. We've seen collective traumas throughout history, slavery,
35:14
Speaker 1: the Holocaust, Jim Crow, pandemics, the Great Depression. And we
35:24
Speaker 1: are in the midst of a collective trauma right now.
35:27
Speaker 1: And it's a collective trauma that is largely going unaddressed.
35:33
Speaker 1: And I think the consequences of that are going to
35:36
Speaker 1: be unhealthy. It's not going to be great. And we're
35:42
Speaker 1: already seeing that. I mean, I think that even in person,
35:46
Speaker 1: civility has eroded. People have kind of just done away
35:51
Speaker 1: with decency everywhere. And it's really sad. It's really sad.
35:57
Speaker 1: I travel a lot and people on airplanes are really
36:00
Speaker 1: out of pocket these days. Like in terms of wearing
36:04
Speaker 1: a mask and respecting flight attendants, respecting other passengers. There's
36:11
Speaker 1: always like a little brawl at some point somewhere in
36:15
Speaker 1: the cabin. And because I travel so much, I've never
36:19
Speaker 1: seen it like this, the way it is right now.
36:22
Speaker 1: You have to wonder what will it take for this
36:26
Speaker 1: country to acknowledge the collective trauma, 850,000 deaths and counting and,
36:33
Speaker 1: you know, lives upended, women forced out of the workplace
36:39
Speaker 1: in unprecedented numbers. children, there are children who have not
36:45
Speaker 1: known life without looking at their parents wearing masks and
36:50
Speaker 1: who have only been to school at home or online
36:54
Speaker 1: at home. And so, yeah, we are in the middle
36:59
Speaker 1: of a collective trauma.
37:01
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's, you know, you look at all the
37:04
Speaker 2: political analysis and they're like, why is everyone, you know,
37:06
Speaker 2: 70% of the electorate thinks the country's on the wrong
37:09
Speaker 2: track and everyone's so upset with everything. And they're like,
37:12
Speaker 2: is it inflation? Is it this? Is it that? And
37:14
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, all these things for sure. But we're
37:16
Speaker 2: in the middle of a fucking pandemic and have been
37:18
Speaker 2: for two years that has reshaped society in a way
37:21
Speaker 2: that we haven't seen in, I don't know, a century.
37:25
Speaker 2: And I don't think we're dealing with it well at all.
37:28
Speaker 1: No. And the government has been, under both administrations, so
37:34
Speaker 1: excruciatingly slow in to do very basic things that pretty
37:38
Speaker 1: much every other country did right away. You know, affordable
37:43
Speaker 1: at-home testing. In Europe, you can get those little tests
37:46
Speaker 1: for a dollar. And that's where I get the majority
37:50
Speaker 1: of my tests from, from friends in Europe who will
37:53
Speaker 1: just send me 100 at a time for events and
37:57
Speaker 1: things like that so that we can do rapid testing
38:00
Speaker 1: and still have a semblance of a public life. Masks
38:04
Speaker 1: for everyone. you know, high quality as the phrase now goes.
38:09
Speaker 1: Why did it take two years for the government to
38:12
Speaker 1: start distributing masks?
38:15
Speaker 2: It's just wild.
38:16
Speaker 1: Like the lack of care, the sort of just everyone
38:20
Speaker 1: for themselves, even from the Biden administration, which is certainly
38:25
Speaker 1: a choice.
38:27
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that, you know, look, I think
38:30
Speaker 2: Everyone thought that in spring of 21, we were home
38:34
Speaker 2: free and then Delta hit and then Omicron hit. And
38:36
Speaker 2: it's just been a slog since then. But, you know,
38:40
Speaker 2: I mean, look, there is helping the country through the
38:43
Speaker 2: actual pandemic and giving people the tools they need to
38:47
Speaker 2: sort of protect themselves. But then there's sort of like
38:50
Speaker 2: a national spirit thing. And I find myself like it's
38:53
Speaker 2: weird as politics becomes more extreme, particularly as the Republican
38:57
Speaker 2: Party becomes more extreme and the stakes. get higher for
39:02
Speaker 2: politics to like fight to save democracy. I find myself
39:07
Speaker 2: maybe because we're in the middle of this pandemic and
39:09
Speaker 2: because it seems like everyone's just suffering through this collective trauma,
39:14
Speaker 2: trying to be like more empathetic. And like, like I
39:18
Speaker 2: find myself less angry online and less willing to like
39:21
Speaker 2: lash out at people just because I'm thinking, you know,
39:24
Speaker 2: there's that like off misquoted line, you know, everyone you
39:28
Speaker 2: meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. And
39:31
Speaker 2: I think about that a lot these days. And it's
39:34
Speaker 2: sort of, I don't know how to reconcile that with
39:36
Speaker 2: the fact that there's also like one party in this
39:38
Speaker 2: country who's gone so extreme that it's like putting the
39:40
Speaker 2: whole thing at risk.
39:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I do believe that people are dealing
39:46
Speaker 1: with things we know nothing about and that we should
39:48
Speaker 1: extend grace to as many people as possible because of that.
39:53
Speaker 1: But not everybody deserves that grace. Everybody's dealing with something,
39:57
Speaker 1: but there's an entire political party that doesn't believe in
40:02
Speaker 1: racism or slavery, that doesn't believe that I have a
40:05
Speaker 1: right to be married to my wife, that doesn't believe
40:08
Speaker 1: that people like me are human. I could give a fuck, honestly,
40:16
Speaker 1: about those people. I'm not trying to reach across. I mean,
40:18
Speaker 1: there's no aisle. People are like reaching across the aisle.
40:22
Speaker 1: You might reach across the aisle maybe and wave at
40:25
Speaker 1: Mitt Romney or Liz Cheney reluctantly. But are we reaching
40:31
Speaker 1: across the aisle for Josh Hawley?
40:32
Speaker 2: No.
40:33
Speaker 1: If we reach across the aisle, he's going to cut
40:35
Speaker 1: our hand off. So, you know, we do have to
40:38
Speaker 1: acknowledge that there are some fractures in this country that
40:41
Speaker 1: are presently unbridgeable. And that we are not the problem
40:45
Speaker 1: for being unwilling to sort of narrow that distance because
40:48
Speaker 1: there's literally nothing we can do to narrow that distance.
40:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. Like there's just there is a faction
40:55
Speaker 2: now of this country that has been radicalized that like
40:58
Speaker 2: are sort of beyond our help and maybe don't deserve
41:02
Speaker 2: us putting the work in. Right. I worry about getting
41:06
Speaker 2: so hardened that the rest of us who are all
41:10
Speaker 2: supposed to be allies, even though that we don't necessarily
41:13
Speaker 2: all agree all the time, that that alliance sort of
41:17
Speaker 2: falls apart because we're all griping at each other on
41:20
Speaker 2: social media and we're not sort of extending good faith
41:23
Speaker 2: to one another, you know?
41:25
Speaker 1: And that's actually where I'm more interested in directing my
41:27
Speaker 1: energies is how can we extend good faith to one another,
41:32
Speaker 1: to people who We don't necessarily agree with, but we
41:37
Speaker 1: just sort of agree, like, you have something valuable to say.
41:41
Speaker 1: Your perspective is just as valuable as mine, which is
41:43
Speaker 1: most people, truly. And I don't know how we do that.
41:48
Speaker 1: And I do think that sort of affinity group infighting
41:52
Speaker 1: is nothing new. It's happened always. And I actually don't
41:57
Speaker 1: think it's necessarily unhealthy. unless that infighting is happening to
42:02
Speaker 1: the detriment of any sort of forward thinking, which does
42:06
Speaker 1: sometimes happen. People get so mired in the quotidian details
42:11
Speaker 1: of infighting that we forget the larger picture. At the
42:15
Speaker 1: same time, you'll see people who are like, don't criticize Biden.
42:18
Speaker 1: He's doing the best he can. And I always just think,
42:21
Speaker 1: is he? Is he really?
42:24
Speaker 2: But also, he's the president. That's our job. We're citizens.
42:27
Speaker 2: We're supposed to criticize our leaders.
42:29
Speaker 1: Wow. We are kind of all doomed if that's his best.
42:35
Speaker 2: How's life with less Twitter? It's fine. It's good.
42:43
Speaker 1: I go on Twitter about three times a day to
42:46
Speaker 1: just check in and read my little friends list. And
42:49
Speaker 1: I think I tweet about three times a day and
42:53
Speaker 1: it's fine. Honestly, today I didn't go on Twitter until
42:56
Speaker 1: like three o'clock. Didn't miss it. Didn't think about it.
42:59
Speaker 1: It was fine. Um, I, I, I, I can't say like,
43:04
Speaker 1: if there's some magical productivity on the other side, I'm
43:08
Speaker 1: just wasting my time doing other things like playing boggle
43:11
Speaker 1: on my phone, but I am not aggravated and I'm
43:16
Speaker 1: not sitting around worrying. Oh my God, what do they think?
43:18
Speaker 1: What do they think of me? Oh my God, everyone
43:20
Speaker 1: hates me. Like I can do that by myself. I
43:23
Speaker 1: don't need encouragement from others. And so that part is
43:26
Speaker 1: really nice.
43:27
Speaker 2: That's a good thing. Last question I ask all of
43:30
Speaker 2: our guests. What is your favorite way to unplug and
43:33
Speaker 2: how often do you get to do it?
43:37
Speaker 1: What is my favorite way to unplug? I think my
43:42
Speaker 1: favorite way to unplug is watching TV with my wife.
43:47
Speaker 1: We've been strolling through television of the 60s and 70s. Oh, nice.
43:53
Speaker 1: And it's been so much fun. We've watched the entire
43:56
Speaker 1: run of Columbo, which actually ran for like 43 years.
44:00
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of Columbo there.
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Speaker 2: Wow. I've never seen Columbo.
44:05
Speaker 1: This was my first time seeing Columbo. And now every
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Speaker 1: night we're like, is there any episode we missed? And
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Speaker 1: so I enjoy doing that. And I also enjoy doing,
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Speaker 1: it's kind of nerdy, but I love making puzzles, putting
44:18
Speaker 1: together puzzles.
44:19
Speaker 2: Oh, cool.
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Speaker 1: And so I do a lot of puzzles. That's good.
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Speaker 2: That's great. That's the first puzzle answer we got. I
44:24
Speaker 2: love that.
44:24
Speaker 1: So relaxing.
44:25
Speaker 2: Roxanne Gay, thank you so much for joining Offline. I
44:28
Speaker 2: really appreciate it.
44:29
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, John. I appreciate it too.
44:40
Speaker 2: Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted
44:43
Speaker 2: by me, John Favreau. It's produced by Andy Gardner Bernstein
44:47
Speaker 2: and Austin Fisher. Andrew Chadwick is our audio editor. Kyle
44:51
Speaker 2: Seglin and Charlotte Landis sound engineered the show. Jordan Katz
44:54
Speaker 2: and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to
44:57
Speaker 2: Tanya Sominator, Michael Martinez, Ari Schwartz, Madison Hallman, and Sandy
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Speaker 2: Gerard for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn,
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Speaker 2: Nar Melkonian, and Amelia Montooth, who film and share our
45:09
Speaker 2: episodes as videos every week.