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"Resistance Is Our Only Option": Mahmoud Khalil speaks · The Real News Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'm here at the Parkway Theater, and I'm sitting with
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Mahmoud Khalil, freed political prisoner and former Columbia graduate student
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: who was heavily involved in the student-led Justice for Palestine movement,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: and who, because of that, was abducted by plainclothes ICE
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: agents from his New York apartment building in March of
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: 2025 and locked away in immigration jail for 104 days.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: But he's here with us now. Brother Mahmoud. Welcome home, man.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, man.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. It's such an honor to be
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: here with you in person. And, you know, I don't
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: even know how you begin to answer this question, but
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I can't begin without asking it. How are you and
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: your family doing after enduring this horrific nightmare that is
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: sadly still not over?
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: No, we're doing all right. And we're taking it day
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: by day, really sort of surviving under the threat of
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: deportation at any second, or worse than that, whatever this
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: government may decide to do at any point. But our
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: fear is part of the fear of so many families
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: in this country who are now worried about sending their
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: children to school. We are in September now, and I
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: know a lot of kids are worried about going to
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: school because they're either undocumented or their parents are undocumented.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Thinking about, you know, just the families in Minnesota and
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: in New York and in Texas who are now under
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: the threat of being really deportation by this or ripping
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: them apart. It's not only.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Haitians in Ohio, Latinos in Southern California.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Anyone who this administration sees as the other or sees
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: as a threat to whatever plans they have. So in
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: that bigger scheme of things, also, at least I know
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: my son will be fed tonight. There wouldn't be a
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: bomb being planted. thrown on our house as is happening
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: in Gaza right now as we're speaking. So in the
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: bigger scheme of things, you know, we're grateful. We're grateful
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: for the community that's supporting us. We are really, you know,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: that's what's keeping us going forward right now. It's just
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: like the level of support, the level of solidarity, the
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: community that was built around us because of what this
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: government has imposed on me and my family.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: I didn't plan to ask this, but as a father
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: as well, I have to. What was it like to
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: hold your kid that first time?
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone can describe that feeling. It's just,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: you know, the first time I held Dean was in
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: detention in a courtroom, in an immigration courtroom, where, you know,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: verdicts of deportations happen, like, you know, rain daily in
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: these rooms. So, It was a little bit weird that
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: I was able to reunite with my family in a
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: place where families are being turned apart. But at the
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: same time, I felt victorious because that's a moment that
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: this government tried to steal from me. Although it was
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: only for one hour, but it filled the world to me.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: And of course, now being with Dean is, you know,
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: he's really, you know, what's A lot of people ask me, like,
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: you know, what gives you purpose? And, you know, just
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: seeing Dean and seeing, like, you know, dreaming of a
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: world where he can live in dignity and safety and equality,
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: just like anyone else, like as an American citizen who
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: has the same rights and responsibility as any other American citizen,
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: regardless of his background, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of anything, like, really,
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: it's just like being a human. Yeah.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: And how could you not look at your kids and,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: you know, like our children and, you know, not fight,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: you know, what I'm, we're going to give this world over,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: you know, we're going to give their future over to
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: these psychopaths, to these fascists, to these fanatical nut jobs.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Of course not. Like, that's just not an option. And,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: you know, I, but it's really hard to kind of
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: put that into action on a day-to-day level when we're
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: being bombarded by so much terror and and awfulness, right?
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, like I interviewed members of your former graduate
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: student union at Columbia after you were taken. I've interviewed
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: members of my former grad student union in Michigan where
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: activists are having their homes raided by the FBI, right?
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, students, community members, workers, people all over this
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: country who are terrified to fight back or do anything
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: because of what happened to you. But you continue to
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: speak out. You wrote this book, No Land to Stand On.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: You're here in Baltimore to speak to folks. What do
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: you in this book have to say to all of
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: us out there about confronting that fear and not living
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: in fear?
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: I think the fear is very real. And I would
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: be lying if I said I don't have fear about myself,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: about my children, about my family. but courage is not
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: the absence of fear. It is actually acting despite the fear.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: And that's, you know, like I would be lying if
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: I said like, oh, I'm not, you know, I'm not afraid.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Or like, you know, when you are dealing with such
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: injustice and as you've mentioned, just like these fascist tactics
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: and the, you know, the way that they dehumanize us,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: whether as immigrants or whether as Palestinians or just as
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: someone who does not agree with what this government is doing.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: So to take you back, I think a day after
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: my release, I decided to go to a protest. And
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: I usually am not that protest guy, although I was
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: very heavily involved in the Colombia movement. But I decided
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: to go mainly to give a message that despite all
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: this violence inflected upon me from the government, from the university,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: from the institutions and the establishment in this country, I
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: refuse to be silent. And now my book is out
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: because the government tried to silence me. Or in essence,
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: they tried to make an example out of me so
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: you and others wouldn't speak out. But to me, this
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: book is a testament that I refuse to be silent.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Now the government gave me a platform and they would
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: take it with the grace and responsibility that I should
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: take this platform to advocate for those who don't have
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: voices like At any moment now, there's over 70,000 immigrants
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: in ICE detention. At every second, there's at least 70,000
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: immigrants in detention.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: That we know of. Now, we don't even know if
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: they're keeping proper track.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Exactly. I don't know how many went through the administrative
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: errors that this administration every now and then does. So really,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: this administration tried to silence me, and I refuse to
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: be silent. And that's why I want to give people
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: sort of like, not hope, but at least some sort
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: of like, despite all this violence, you can still speak out.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Because what we're dealing with right now is this administration,
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: they are bullies. And what our parents teach us, when
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: a bully come to bully you, you should not.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: You stand up, baby. Exactly.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: So that's what I'm doing, you know, like right now. And,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: you know, part of my fight is not about staying
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: in the U.S. It's more around what happened to me
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: is wrong and shouldn't happen to anyone else. Even if
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: I win my case tomorrow, I may decide to leave
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: the day after. But that's totally beside the point. besides
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: the main point, which is what's happening is wrong and
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: should be confronted.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I want to end on that note because, you know,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: ever since you were taken, you know, one of the
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: reasons that people, you know, found so much hope in
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: your story was that you continued to use your voice
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: to advocate for others who were locked away in immigration jail,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: people who couldn't speak English, people who didn't have access
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: to lawyers and who could get contact, you know, with
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: the outside world. And that meant so much to so many.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: And of course you ended up in that jail because
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: you were speaking out and speaking up along with millions
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: around the country and around the world against a genocide
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: in Palestine funded by our tax dollars. So, you know,
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: here we are in 2026 and it, it, it, I'm
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: not gonna say it doesn't feel like we're losing everything
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: and that it was all for naught, but I know
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of our viewers can feel that way when
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: they look at what's happening to the ruins of Gaza
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: and to the continual onslaught to erase that people from
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: that land while back home they're using the same tech
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: to disappear our neighbors and family members. So how do you,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: put all of this in perspective, and how do we
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: continue to fight even when it feels like all is lost?
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: I think hope and resistance is our only option right
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: now because this administration wants us to feel defeated, wants
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: us to feel that nothing is working and the moment
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: that we scum to that feeling is the moment that
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: they win. Because even if we remain silent, because I
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: know people who were targeted and remained silent, the administration
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: did not stop going after them because their mere existence
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: was a problem to this administration. And that's why I'm hopeful,
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: you know, because I don't have any other option, you know,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: like I'm not saying like, you know, and The fact
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: that the President of the United States came after an
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: unknown student speaks a lot to the successes of our
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: movement because it was impactful. It was actually changing things
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: on the ground. It was changing public opinion in droves.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: That's why the President of the United States felt the
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: need to go after a random student to make an
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: example out of him so that others would fear speaking out.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: And that's I think my only message in terms of
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: why we should be hopeful. Because the change doesn't happen
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: in a day and night. It is the persistence. It
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: is the continued resistance against all odds. When you see
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: that nothing is happening, but you continue because you believe
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: in that. And that's the thing as Palestinians, why we
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: continue resisting despite everything. all odds against us is that
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: we are righteous. We know that human beings, regardless of
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: their faith and nationality, they can't see that in us
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: and they would support us. So that's why we have
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: a strong belief in our cause, that it's a righteous cause.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: We don't need millions and billions of dollars to convince
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: to convince public opinion about the righteousness of our cause
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: or not. It's just like we need to present it
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: and that's it. And that's what they are fearing right now.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: That's why you see the establishment in this country scrambling
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: to control the media, to buy TikTok and to buy
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: CNN and all of these, just because we are actually winning.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: And they know they will not be able to stop us.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: That's why they're bringing these all new tactics about, you know,
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: in my case, they're weaponizing the immigration law from 1952.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: In other cases, they're bringing, like, you know, all these
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: alien laws.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: They're reaching back to laws from, like, centuries ago.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, 1800-something, you know, like, because they're looking for tools because, like,
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: we're actually, you know, like, winning and the public is
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: with us. But also with immigrants, like, an average American
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: sees that an immigrant is a benefit to this country,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: whether it is through the work that they do, whether
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: through the diversity they bring. And this country was built upon,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: you know, like, I mean, recently, I don't want to
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: talk about the enslaved people and how this country was
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: built on their shoulders, but like recently also like immigrants
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: were part of this.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: You and I wouldn't be sitting here if that wasn't true.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. We absolutely must be conscious of that. That's the
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: other thing about why I'm writing the book now, not
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: in five years, because this is urgent. A lot of
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: people ask me, how would you look at this moment
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: in 20 years? I don't want to look at it
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: in 20 years. I want to do what I can
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: do right now to stop it. What's happening right now
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: is a stain on the Constitution, is a stain on
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: the American consciousness, is a stain on every human value
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: that we stand or we say we stand for. And
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: I don't want to look in 20 years and say, oh,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: we should have done something because it's happening now in
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: our backyards. Like an ICE detention center is at least
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: like 30 minutes from any one of us right now.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Like if you drive 30 minutes, you would find an
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: ICE detention center.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: There's one five minutes that way. Thank you so much, bro.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: No, thank you so much, Max.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Appreciate it, man.