Latest / Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections / Networking Unleashed: S1E43 An Interview with Shermin Kruse and Michael A Forman, Public Speaker

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Networking Unleashed: S1E43 An Interview with Shermin Kruse and Michael A Forman, Public Speaker · Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections

• 0:16
  Hello, and welcome to Networking Unleashed, Building
• 0:20
  Profitable Connections. Welcome back to the show,
• 0:24
  folks. I'm your host, Michael Foreman, and you're
• 0:27
  listening to the podcast where networking is
• 0:29
  more than just awkward handshakes and bad coffee.
• 0:33
  It's an art and a talent. But here's the twist.
• 0:36
  It's an art and talent you can actually learn.
• 0:39
  Yes, even if you're the person hiding in the
• 0:42
  corner at every event, pretending to check emails.
• 0:47
  Networking isn't just a nice skill to have. It's
• 0:49
  a game changer. And when you get good at it,
• 0:52
  you'll wonder why you didn't start sooner. More
• 0:55
  connections, more opportunities, more profits.
• 0:58
  It's like unlocking a cheat code for life. So
• 1:02
  whether you're the life of the party or the just
• 1:04
  let me stay at home and text type, we've got
• 1:06
  something for you. So stick around. Let's turn
• 1:09
  those awkward small talk moments into big wins.
• 1:13
  I have a guest today. Her name is... Shermaine
• 1:17
  Cruz. You crushed it. All right. And she is an
• 1:24
  award -winning idea curator, global changemaker,
• 1:28
  complex system negotiator, international business
• 1:32
  lawyer, speaker, and storyteller. And I think
• 1:36
  you tested my verbal skills right then and there.
• 1:39
  Shermaine, why don't you tell us a little bit
• 1:42
  about yourself? All right, listen, I test my
• 1:44
  verbal skills every time I say the word Volkswagen,
• 1:47
  because in my language, there's no wah sound.
• 1:50
  So I just want to say Volkswagen. And it's very
• 1:54
  difficult to say Volkswagen. So I'm very happy
• 1:56
  that I put you through the exercise of what I
• 1:59
  go through on a daily basis. Okay, okay. All
• 2:02
  right, my background. Well, I was born in Iran.
• 2:04
  I lived through the first 10 years or so of post
• 2:11
  -revolutionary Iran during the Iran -Iraq War.
• 2:14
  And then my family was finally able to immigrate.
• 2:17
  We were able to immigrate to Canada. And so I
• 2:20
  attended university. there and it was my introduction
• 2:24
  to western democratic thought and what it was
• 2:28
  like to interact and interface with communities
• 2:31
  in the west as a woman especially as a woman
• 2:34
  of color and it was always my dream to be in
• 2:39
  the corporate world and to be doing the handshaking
• 2:43
  and the awkward small talk and what I started
• 2:47
  to learn as I went to law school. I went to law
• 2:49
  school in Ann Arbor in Michigan. And that was
• 2:52
  my introduction to the United States. By the
• 2:54
  way, shortly before 9 -11, it was a crazy time
• 2:56
  for me to be out there networking in law school,
• 2:59
  trying to find clerkships and then land positions.
• 3:03
  By the way, I'm dating myself now. This was almost
• 3:06
  a quarter of a century ago, y 'all. So I've been
• 3:09
  around the block since then quite a bit. And
• 3:13
  I stepped into this world of boardrooms. And
• 3:16
  what I learned is that the amount of freedom
• 3:20
  and flexibility and opportunity here is so much
• 3:25
  improved, infinitely improved. And I learned
• 3:30
  from iran where i come from but and i also learned
• 3:34
  that listen there's still a hierarchy here and
• 3:37
  this is a cutthroat corporate world and if i
• 3:39
  really want to make it in this world i need to
• 3:42
  build relationships and alliances and i didn't
• 3:45
  really come with any michael I just, my parents
• 3:48
  did what they could and they did a great job
• 3:51
  providing for us. We never went hungry, but I
• 3:54
  didn't come from a world of corporate prestige.
• 3:57
  I came from a war -torn post -revolutionary country
• 4:01
  and I desperately wanted to maneuver my way through
• 4:05
  these rooms. But then I also wanted to do it
• 4:08
  in a way that was authentic to me, that felt
• 4:10
  right for me, that settled well with me, and
• 4:14
  that felt more like really. building than manipulation.
• 4:18
  And so that was the skill that I began to develop
• 4:23
  after law school, having honed it to be candid
• 4:26
  with you in Iran as a child, learning to maneuver
• 4:30
  my way through the morality police and things
• 4:32
  like that. And practiced it ever since, right?
• 4:37
  And so as I succeeded in the corporate world,
• 4:40
  I was an international lawyer. So I represented
• 4:42
  a lot of Fortune 500 companies. And I was in
• 4:46
  courtrooms. I was in boardrooms. I was in negotiation
• 4:48
  rooms. I was in some... really unusual places
• 4:52
  at very unusual times. And it's been an extraordinary
• 4:56
  ride. And then about a few years ago, I retired
• 4:59
  and I decided to teach at all. So now I teach
• 5:02
  at Northwestern Law School. I teach. the JD program
• 5:05
  and the MSL program there. I write books and
• 5:08
  I speak. And this is the world that I'm in now
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  is helping other people form those connections,
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  no matter how skilled or unskilled they might
• 5:18
  be at it. And no matter how many connections
• 5:20
  they enter in with, right? Okay, sure. Now, you
• 5:26
  mentioned stoicism within the things that you
• 5:29
  want to talk about. Just very briefly go into
• 5:32
  that just a little bit. Yeah, so stoicism was
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  essentially something I grew up with, right?
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  This idea of emotional regulation, of stoic regulation
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  of one's emotions. As I grew up, I learned more
• 5:47
  and more. I studied philosophy in university,
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  and then I went on to law school, and I became
• 5:52
  very practiced. as a litigator and a person existing
• 5:55
  in the corporate world, of being in control of
• 5:58
  my own feelings and emotions at any given time,
• 6:01
  while still being empathetic toward the people
• 6:04
  in the room, that is being able to read them
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  and understand them, as well as was necessary
• 6:09
  for that situation and that particular circumstance.
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  What I learned is that stoicism isn't not feeling
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  things, right? Actually, that is a sort of a
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  psychopathic way of existing. Stoicism is rather
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  existing with the ability to regulate your own
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  emotions, to feel the right things at the right
• 6:29
  time for the right people in the right way as
• 6:31
  you determine them to be. And in my opinion,
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  it's the ultimate form of authenticity. And it's
• 6:38
  the ultimate form of relationship building. What
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  I found in a networking context is that I could
• 6:44
  utilize both stoicism and empathy to read the
• 6:49
  room, respond to the room, but also deal with
• 6:52
  my own, say, anxiety or frustration or rejection
• 6:56
  or whatever might have happened in that networking
• 6:59
  room tonight because not every conversation is
• 7:02
  an incredible win, as we all know. Some of them
• 7:05
  leave us feeling as though we failed that one
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  or the person we interacted didn't set us up
• 7:13
  for a good next one. And so it's being able to
• 7:18
  cope with all of that while still having that
• 7:21
  awareness of the other people in the room. Networking
• 7:25
  isn't an exact science. meet somebody who you
• 7:31
  can build that relationship with, but you also
• 7:34
  deal with the people that you really can't and
• 7:37
  you don't dismiss them. You have their contact
• 7:40
  information, but you're moving on to somebody
• 7:43
  else that you can build that relationship. And
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  as well as I do, that relationship building is
• 7:48
  really the key to networking. How has combining
• 7:52
  stoicism and empathy shaped your approach to
• 7:56
  networking? Really, the idea is when you think
• 8:00
  about empathy and empathic connections, there's
• 8:02
  actually a range of empathic connection. On the
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  one end of the range is cognitive, which is emotional
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  detachment. I am not walking a mile in your shoes.
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  I'm just syncing my steps with your steps so
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  that I can smell what you smell and see what
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  you hear, what you hear, so I can understand
• 8:20
  you better. And that is the ultimate way for
• 8:23
  me to be able to relate to you, right? Find common
• 8:26
  ground with you and build that relationship,
• 8:28
  but even candidly find you interesting. But on
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  the other end of that spectrum, Michael, is emotional
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  empathy. And that is your pain in my heart. It's
• 8:39
  the usual definition that we associate with empathy,
• 8:42
  right? You're watching your favorite TV show,
• 8:44
  your favorite character gets punched in the face
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  and you recoil, even though you didn't get hit,
• 8:50
  right? And that's a fictional character on a
• 8:52
  box in front of you. So imagine translating that
• 8:54
  into real life. So the thing about networking
• 8:57
  is we have to be really careful and strategic
• 8:59
  about what Thank you so much for having me. And
• 9:29
  the amount of emotional connection you want to
• 9:31
  feel to that person is going to be very different
• 9:34
  than how you want to approach the cold room.
• 9:37
  But either way, you want to go into every situation
• 9:41
  with that understanding and awareness. So that's
• 9:44
  the empathy part. The stoicism part, that's turning
• 9:47
  all of that awareness inward, all of that strategy
• 9:51
  inward. I also need to be aware of my own feelings,
• 9:55
  my own thoughts, right? And in control of them
• 9:58
  and able to dictate them and influence them so
• 10:01
  that I can maneuver my way through this situation
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  in a way that will serve me, that will serve
• 10:07
  my profession, my company, my industry, whatever
• 10:09
  it is my goals are for that encounter and interaction
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  and do it in a way that's authentic to me. So
• 10:16
  I'm not going to go home that night and feel
• 10:20
  as though I was untrue to myself somehow, but
• 10:24
  rather, hey, I met some really great people and
• 10:27
  made some really great connections that I can
• 10:30
  continue to develop as I move forward. So that's
• 10:35
  what I'd love for you guys to be able to do at
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  the end of the night. Authenticity is the main
• 10:42
  part of what you're talking about. And that's
• 10:45
  the main part of networking. Because if you are
• 10:48
  authentic to yourself, you can be free and discuss
• 10:53
  and you can actually listen to the other people
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  if you're being authentic. If you're not, if
• 10:59
  you're putting on some sort of a show, how much
• 11:02
  of a relationship can you actually build? So
• 11:04
  it's a very good point. How do you balance strength
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  and compassion when networking in high pressure
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  situations? And you being an attorney, I'm sure
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  are used to a few high pressure situations. Yes,
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  absolutely. So again, you need to be strategic
• 11:20
  about the level of compassion that you input.
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  One of the examples I like to give about this,
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  and I know your show's about networking and I'm
• 11:27
  talking to a corporate community right now, but
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  I want all of you guys for a second to imagine
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  that you're a trauma surgeon in an emergency
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  room. gunshot victim after gunshot victim comes
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  in through the door. You crying over every single
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  one is not going to help those gunshot victims.
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  But your compassionate ability to understand
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  the pain that they're going through and the situation
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  that they're in is going to be able to serve
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  you. And it will prevent you from being traumatized
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  by your experiences so that you can keep doing
• 11:55
  your job. So that's how I want you guys to think
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  about compassion and empathy as you go into different
• 12:00
  situations. You want to make sure that the level
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  of emotional connection that you're taking with
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  you is something that is going to be able to
• 12:08
  serve you in that situation, right? If it's not,
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  try to put it aside. And one of the things that
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  CEOs love doing these days, networkers and the
• 12:19
  startup founders and all of these folks love
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  doing these days is getting up first thing in
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  the morning, taking an ice bath. And one of the
• 12:26
  reasons they love those ice baths, there's lots
• 12:28
  of health benefits to ice baths. I'm not minimizing
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  the health benefits. But what I'm telling you
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  is getting Comfortable with discomfort, as a
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  general matter, is a remarkable stoic tool. It
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  could be through an ice bath. It could be through
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  a steam room. It could be through volunteering
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  at your local homeless shelter and striking up
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  conversations with people you have nothing to
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  gain from, right? Whatever it is, getting used
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  to that which makes you uncomfortable so that
• 12:56
  when you're in that state of discomfort, high
• 12:58
  pressure situation, maybe even hostile high pressure
• 13:02
  situation, right? How do you maintain your calm,
• 13:06
  maintain your composure, and perhaps most importantly,
• 13:09
  maintain your awareness of yourself? and the
• 13:13
  people around you. And that awareness can take,
• 13:15
  again, it can take the form of a full emotional
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  connection to someone you've known for decades
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  whose child is ill, and you show up to the hospital
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  and hold their hand. Or it can simply take the
• 13:27
  form of, I am going to distance myself from these
• 13:30
  feelings at this time, so that I can serve my
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  partner whose child is sick, so I can take over
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  their duties for them, so that they can focus
• 13:40
  on their family, right? So compassion, can take
• 13:42
  multiple forms. And as long as you strategically
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  take it into your tense situation, you'll be
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  able to adapt it to the situation in a way that's
• 13:51
  appropriate. Okay, very good. Very good answer.
• 13:55
  Thank you for that. Let me give you a kind of
• 13:59
  working over overcoming challenges. Okay, how
• 14:04
  can stoic principles help in overcoming networking
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  challenges and rejections? I love that. As I'm
• 14:12
  sure you can imagine, you're in a networking
• 14:14
  room. Rejection, by the way, comes in all forms.
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  It comes in that very subtle, casual, you make
• 14:22
  your way towards someone, but they turn around
• 14:24
  and their back is to you and you suddenly know
• 14:27
  you're not welcome in that conversation. It can
• 14:30
  also take much more extreme forms than that,
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  right? So rejection can also come in the form
• 14:35
  of outright rejection. And that can be impactful.
• 14:39
  It can be hurtful. And we've all been in that
• 14:41
  situation where there's also this nervous awkwardness,
• 14:45
  right? So it's not as though you're reduced to
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  tears in the middle of a networking event. It's
• 14:50
  more you feel a little bit let down and you feel
• 14:54
  this anxious awkwardness and you're not sure
• 14:57
  now how to maneuver your way through the room
• 14:59
  or if you have somehow embarrassed yourself in
• 15:03
  front of others, et cetera. So what you want
• 15:05
  to do is you want to use stoic tools and the
• 15:08
  one I've already described so far is embracing
• 15:10
  discomfort but there's a lot more of them in
• 15:12
  my book stoic empathy which is being released
• 15:16
  April 8th tons of stoic tools to help you cope
• 15:19
  and maintain emotional regulation at that time
• 15:22
  whether it's anger because somebody said something
• 15:25
  with which you vehemently disagree, maybe even
• 15:28
  on a deep moral level, which can happen even
• 15:31
  at a networking event, right? How do you cope?
• 15:35
  How do you respond and cope to that person? And
• 15:38
  the first step is always pause, right? Maintain
• 15:42
  control of yourself and then react and make sure
• 15:47
  that here's the stimuli, okay? Here's the response.
• 15:51
  What's in between the stimuli and response is
• 15:55
  your willpower. Make sure that you're existing
• 15:58
  in that space. And then not only are you able
• 16:01
  to control your reactions in a manner that is
• 16:04
  appropriate at times where anger, anxiety, fear
• 16:08
  is being triggered, but you are also, again,
• 16:11
  as Michael said earlier, remaining true to your
• 16:13
  authentic self. Because you're able to be yourself.
• 16:17
  Here's you in the middle. Here's your response,
• 16:19
  your intentional response, right? And that is
• 16:22
  the best that you can do in that situation. Because
• 16:25
  you don't have a month to think about it. And
• 16:28
  by the way, don't leave the room overthinking
• 16:31
  your interactions. Don't leave the room thinking,
• 16:34
  oh, I should have said this or I should have
• 16:36
  done that. It's okay to reflect a little bit
• 16:38
  on what you could have done differently to further
• 16:41
  your interactions and create meaningful context
• 16:45
  and content. But you don't want to overthink
• 16:49
  it. You don't want to go back and beat yourself
• 16:51
  up because you feel like you didn't. collect
• 16:54
  enough business cards or build enough relationships
• 16:56
  that night, because that's not going to motivate
• 16:58
  you going into the next one. It's just not going
• 17:00
  to be helpful to you. Take what lessons you can
• 17:02
  get and move on. And I just want to sprinkle
• 17:05
  in just a little bit to what you had said, your
• 17:08
  confidence level, okay? Because if you are confident
• 17:12
  in yourself and what you're doing, that really
• 17:16
  helps you because you're your authentic self,
• 17:19
  you're confident, it'll give you that little
• 17:22
  bit of structure. to respond. That pause that
• 17:26
  you were saying, that is so important because
• 17:29
  you have to really take everything in, think
• 17:34
  about it. Now you really don't have a few seconds,
• 17:36
  but you have to think about it and respond appropriately.
• 17:39
  So that if you sprinkle that confidence in there,
• 17:42
  I think that's a perfect answer. 100%. And if
• 17:45
  I could just dovetail back on that, I know you
• 17:47
  have other questions, Michael, but One of the
• 17:50
  things I always I don't know if your audience,
• 17:53
  if anybody out there is an athlete or if you've
• 17:55
  ever played sports or if you are a fan of athleticism.
• 17:58
  But there's this thing that happens in sports
• 18:00
  where the ball slows down, the game slows down.
• 18:03
  There's this kind of cool thing that happens
• 18:05
  that the pros talk about. Now, you've got to
• 18:07
  be a pro before it slows down for you. But it
• 18:09
  literally slows down like your Neo from the Matrix
• 18:12
  and the bullets are whizzing by, according to
• 18:14
  everyone else. But for you, they're going so
• 18:16
  slowly that you could grab one of them and drop
• 18:18
  it. Right. That is something I swear to you guys,
• 18:21
  if you practice this enough, you can accomplish
• 18:24
  with your networking skills. You can actually
• 18:27
  slow down that time for yourself so that it might
• 18:31
  not actually be 10 seconds of time. It might
• 18:35
  just be a beat. But that... beat can feel like
• 18:41
  a lifetime if you are an expert at knowing how
• 18:45
  to deal with that beat. So allow yourself to
• 18:48
  get to the place where you'd let the game slow
• 18:51
  down for you so that you can see it in a way
• 18:55
  that isn't as rushed, that isn't as fast moving.
• 18:59
  And then you suddenly find that space within
• 19:02
  yourself to respond and find that confidence.
• 19:05
  Just to let you know that also. Both my sons
• 19:09
  played college baseball. My daughter -in -law
• 19:14
  played college softball. So I'm telling you that
• 19:17
  all three have said that they've found that to
• 19:21
  happen, that it actually slowed down. So it happens
• 19:24
  on the collegiate level as well. So I know exactly
• 19:28
  what you're talking about. Definitely. How does
• 19:32
  empathy contribute to becoming a more effective
• 19:35
  leader and networker? Okay, so in terms of leadership,
• 19:41
  really the way I think about empathy and also
• 19:44
  empathy's interaction with stoicism, and this
• 19:46
  is something I write about in the book as well.
• 19:48
  The book is Stoic Empathy, if you guys are still
• 19:50
  listening. April 8th, it's coming out. Feel free
• 19:54
  to get a copy. One of the things that really
• 19:57
  takes place when you're a leader is you develop
• 19:59
  this incredible ability to understand your team,
• 20:02
  this empathic awareness of your team. Now, I
• 20:05
  want you to imagine yourself as a leader. responsible
• 20:08
  for a team, right? And when you're responsible
• 20:10
  for a team, you're not just responsible for the
• 20:14
  day they have, you're responsible for the jobs
• 20:16
  they keep, right? So, and that means the health
• 20:20
  insurance they have, right? Little Timmy's. medicine
• 20:23
  could be reliant on you. There's a massive amount
• 20:27
  at play here. And the higher up you are on the
• 20:30
  leadership spectrum, but even if you are leading
• 20:33
  a small team, you're responsible for these people.
• 20:36
  And sometimes you get bad news because Bumps
• 20:39
  in the road happen in business, right? It doesn't
• 20:42
  matter who you are. It doesn't matter how successful
• 20:43
  you are. And it doesn't have to be a worldwide
• 20:46
  global pandemic or anything like that or total
• 20:49
  disruption of supply chains as a result of that.
• 20:51
  It could just be you lost a big client that day.
• 20:55
  In everyday occurrence, that might happen. And
• 20:58
  you have to find a way to manage this loss, this
• 21:02
  financial loss, in a way that preserves and protects
• 21:06
  but still motivates your team. You don't necessarily
• 21:09
  want to lie to them and pretend that you still
• 21:11
  have the client. That would be silly. But you
• 21:13
  also don't want to go to them with shaky hands
• 21:16
  and say, guys, I don't know what we're going
• 21:19
  to do. We've lost this client. We have nowhere
• 21:21
  to go. No, you want to use your awareness of
• 21:25
  the empathic needs of the people around you to
• 21:28
  collect and gather yourself and lead them in
• 21:32
  a manner that is appropriate. So when we talk
• 21:34
  about empathy, what we're talking in leadership,
• 21:36
  what we're talking about is we're talking about
• 21:38
  that awareness. You care about your team. You
• 21:41
  care about their jobs. You care about their health
• 21:42
  care. Yet you don't need to necessarily express
• 21:47
  that in a manner that would make them upset,
• 21:51
  uncomfortable, or in any way not motivate them
• 21:56
  to do what you need them to do to save their
• 22:00
  jobs, to save the company. and to do whatever
• 22:03
  is needed for the next steps. So, and that's
• 22:05
  very situation dependent, what that might be.
• 22:08
  Even your level of vulnerability and what you
• 22:11
  put yourself out there with, that depends on
• 22:14
  the situation and how stable and secure your
• 22:16
  team is and how much they can take that day.
• 22:19
  So here you are. aware of your team, aware of
• 22:22
  their capabilities, aware of their needs, and
• 22:25
  also aware of their vulnerabilities. And you're
• 22:28
  using that to help you decide how to lead them
• 22:32
  better and lead them forward. You're describing,
• 22:36
  there's a distinct difference between a leader
• 22:39
  and a boss. Okay. A boss just shouts all the
• 22:43
  messages. I love that. Okay. But a leader has
• 22:47
  leaders under him. He's teaching his people to
• 22:52
  be leaders and you have to be empathetic. You
• 22:55
  have to know what they're doing. You have to
• 22:57
  get in the trenches with them, tutor them, train
• 23:00
  them, coach them. And so that's the main difference.
• 23:04
  So with a leader being empathetic, that is truly
• 23:09
  a part of being a good leader because there are
• 23:12
  plenty of leaders out there that are not good.
• 23:14
  Yeah, plenty. Yeah. Can you share a specific
• 23:17
  example? where empathy led to a successful negotiation?
• 23:24
  Yeah, sure. Okay, so this is a good one. You
• 23:27
  guys are going to like this one. I'm going to
• 23:28
  try not to give any names, but I was working
• 23:30
  for a massive fashion company at the time. It
• 23:36
  was actually the spirits division of a fashion
• 23:37
  company. So technically it was a vodka. And we
• 23:41
  were literally in danger of losing the right.
• 23:47
  to use our brand our name and it was a trademark
• 23:51
  dispute and it was a sort of a crazy situation
• 23:55
  to be in because it was a very high -end luxury
• 23:58
  brand that we had been using for years and there
• 24:01
  was some real danger that we could lose it and
• 24:04
  what where we were though is we were in a negotiation
• 24:08
  room it was my team right the team that represented
• 24:12
  the other side and the mediator And in the middle
• 24:16
  of this negotiation, it was a multi -day, these
• 24:18
  negotiations took days and days. In the middle
• 24:21
  of the negotiation, halfway through, maybe three
• 24:23
  or four days in, we learned that the mediator
• 24:26
  does all sorts of business with the lawyers of
• 24:30
  the opposing side. So the mediator... is bias
• 24:35
  and this is something that should have been disclosed
• 24:37
  to us that was not we didn't even know until
• 24:40
  we saw him talking to someone else halfway through
• 24:43
  the the meetings in the hallways and wow it was
• 24:48
  our reaction was obviously we were very angry
• 24:52
  we were also very anxious very nervous should
• 24:55
  our own research have yielded these results did
• 24:58
  we make a mistake in not knowing this how could
• 25:00
  we have let this happen how could he have let
• 25:03
  this happen And my partner, who was with me at
• 25:06
  the time, became extremely angry. And he immediately
• 25:09
  accused the mediator of being biased and being
• 25:13
  unethical. And, of course, the mediator... was
• 25:18
  extremely defensive and very upset at having
• 25:23
  been accused of being unethical because in his
• 25:26
  mind, he's created his own walls and he's created
• 25:29
  his own divisions. And this is not anything that
• 25:32
  he needed to have reported, et cetera. Nobody
• 25:34
  thinks they're the bad guy. You know what I mean?
• 25:36
  And so he's going to walk out. And we're going
• 25:41
  to lose all the progress we've made on this mediation
• 25:43
  because the mediator is going to walk out. My
• 25:45
  partner is going to walk out. All these people
• 25:47
  are going to walk out. And so in that moment,
• 25:51
  when I went up to the mediator and I just, and
• 25:54
  by the way, I want you guys to please take this
• 25:56
  advice with a grain of salt because touching
• 25:59
  people in business interactions can be tricky.
• 26:02
  But I put my hand on his arm like this and I
• 26:05
  just said, why don't you stay a minute? Let's
• 26:07
  talk about it. right? I understand that you must
• 26:11
  be very angry right now. I'm sure you can understand
• 26:15
  where we're coming from. Why don't you take a
• 26:17
  minute and let's talk about it. Don't leave.
• 26:22
  And he turned around and he came back in. He
• 26:24
  was still huffing and puffing, but he turned
• 26:26
  around and he came back in. And my partner had
• 26:28
  left the room. So I said, give me a minute. And
• 26:31
  I went out and I convinced my partner to come
• 26:33
  back in the room. And after that, This mediator
• 26:39
  was bending over backwards to prove how unbiased
• 26:43
  he was towards us. So I'm telling you that just
• 26:49
  that moment when I slowed down my speech and
• 26:53
  gave it a beat of silence and that moment of
• 26:57
  empathy was all he needed to come back and all
• 27:00
  my partner needed. Both of them are actually
• 27:02
  well -intentioned, great people, great professionals.
• 27:05
  It just that's how the situation. occurred. And
• 27:10
  I've made my share of mistakes in negotiations.
• 27:13
  I've said things that I shouldn't have said.
• 27:15
  I put my foot in my mouth. I have definitely
• 27:17
  embarrassed myself. But you wanted an example
• 27:20
  of a win. So I've given you an example of a win,
• 27:23
  my friend. I don't want the audience to think
• 27:26
  that they're all wins because it's all a process
• 27:28
  of learning and a process of growing and a process
• 27:31
  of moving forward. But I did learn from that
• 27:34
  interaction. And since then, I've reflected a
• 27:38
  lot on that touch, too, like where you touch
• 27:41
  someone in a professional context really matters
• 27:44
  because you want to make sure that the touch
• 27:47
  is something that lowers their defenses and not
• 27:51
  something that hires their defenses, right or
• 27:54
  wrong. Right or wrong, whether you think they're
• 27:56
  being overreactionary or not. The idea is I know
• 27:59
  me and I know this person and I know the relationship
• 28:02
  between the two of us and I know what will calm
• 28:05
  them. And of course, I can't say calm down. That's
• 28:09
  like the worst thing you can ever say to anybody
• 28:11
  when you want them to calm down. But through
• 28:14
  that reassurance and that empathy and that understanding,
• 28:18
  you can in effect. Slow down the action in the
• 28:24
  amygdala that's going on in the person's brain
• 28:26
  because they're in fight, flight, or freeze mode,
• 28:29
  right? And get them to think rationally. If I
• 28:33
  were to walk out of this negotiation right now,
• 28:36
  how would it reflect on my career? How would
• 28:39
  it reflect on my clients? How would it reflect
• 28:41
  on this case? How would it affect my reputation?
• 28:45
  If I'm able to sell this negotiation, though,
• 28:49
  If I can get these two sides to reach an agreement,
• 28:53
  I'm a rock star. And what you want them to do
• 28:58
  is you want them to engage in that sort of thinking.
• 29:01
  And in order to do that, you have to reduce their
• 29:05
  level of volatility and then start with a series
• 29:09
  of questions and interactions that lead them
• 29:12
  to that conclusion. So when we were all back
• 29:14
  at the table, all I had to say is, How great
• 29:18
  would it be if we could make this work now? Imagine
• 29:22
  the success. And it just reframed things for
• 29:26
  everybody else in the room. And in that instance,
• 29:29
  it worked. We ended up settling and being able
• 29:32
  to continue to use our brand. That's great. You
• 29:36
  had mentioned you made several mistakes, of course.
• 29:41
  Give me what are the most common mistakes that
• 29:45
  people can make when trying to network and how
• 29:51
  can they avoid it? That's very interesting. I
• 29:55
  would say that really does depend on the person.
• 29:58
  There are definitely people whose most common
• 30:01
  mistake is not going deep enough and people whose
• 30:04
  most common mistake is going too deep. For instance,
• 30:07
  because sometimes, listen, I'm just at a networking
• 30:11
  event. I'm not here to tell you my life story
• 30:14
  and I don't really want to hear yours. I want
• 30:16
  to connect with you, but I don't need you to
• 30:19
  go that deep in. It's making me uncomfortable.
• 30:21
  And then there are people who are so surface
• 30:24
  level, so shallow that it never moves beyond
• 30:28
  the small talk. And small talk is literally a
• 30:32
  filler. It's used so you can start to feel each
• 30:36
  other out, judge each other's tone, body language,
• 30:39
  and receptivity so that you can actually converse,
• 30:41
  right? As opposed to, hey, how's the weather?
• 30:44
  But there's people who never move past it. And
• 30:47
  it's been incredible to me how those two extremes
• 30:51
  can sometimes be at the same event, but they
• 30:53
  can. And what I would say is try to examine what's
• 30:57
  working for you and what's not working for you
• 31:00
  and make small adjustments. Like what Michael
• 31:04
  said in the beginning, you do still want to be
• 31:06
  authentic. If you're a person who connects deep,
• 31:09
  pretending to be shallow isn't going to get you
• 31:11
  very far. But if you're consistently noticing
• 31:14
  that you're making people uncomfortable with
• 31:16
  your questions, or if you're consistently noticing
• 31:18
  that the conversation is so shallow that the
• 31:22
  person's eyes keep wandering to, can I go talk
• 31:25
  to someone else? What's happening in that section
• 31:27
  of the room? Could it possibly be more interesting
• 31:29
  than this person? And adjust accordingly to that
• 31:33
  while still being true to yourself. You can.
• 31:38
  What I've found is ever since the pandemic, people
• 31:44
  have relied on Zoom and cell phones and everything.
• 31:46
  But the days of building your customer base is
• 31:51
  gone. And the time of building relationships
• 31:54
  is really around. I used to be in the mortgage
• 31:58
  business. And I used to come home with a shoebox
• 32:01
  full of business cards. Yay. Look how great I
• 32:03
  was. It was horrible. I learned that after a
• 32:07
  three or four hour networking event, if I come
• 32:10
  home with 15 or 20 business cards, because I
• 32:14
  know I created a relationship with them, then
• 32:17
  I can move on. I did very good. I did very well.
• 32:21
  So it's good. So now last but not least. Okay.
• 32:24
  So you take a breath. Okay. Last but not least.
• 32:28
  Very empathetic of you, Michael Foreman. How
• 32:33
  do you see the fusion of stoicism and empathy
• 32:36
  shaping the future of networking and leadership?
• 32:41
  What I see it doing is helping people avoid,
• 32:46
  and it's actually very close to what you just
• 32:49
  said. It really dovetails on what you just said.
• 32:51
  Helping people avoid the idea that I got to work
• 32:54
  the room. Working the room is not the goal. The
• 32:58
  goal is to build a handful of relationships that
• 33:01
  are going to propel your business and maybe even
• 33:06
  your professional life forward, right? You never
• 33:10
  know. Some of these people could, in a few years,
• 33:13
  play a pivotal role. They could help you get
• 33:16
  your next job. It could be a massive shift. So
• 33:20
  you don't want to work the room. You want to
• 33:22
  know the people in the room. Take a real human
• 33:26
  interest in who they are, what is it that's interesting
• 33:30
  about them and what they do. So to the extent
• 33:32
  you're talking about what someone does for a
• 33:34
  living, you're doing it so that you can better
• 33:36
  understand that person, now better understand
• 33:39
  what it is you can get from them. naturally help
• 33:44
  you to get more from one another. It helps to
• 33:46
  build this symbiotic relationship. And that symbiosis,
• 33:51
  that self -controlled empathic symbiosis is the
• 33:55
  best type of leadership out there. And remember
• 33:58
  that you are still in control of your part of
• 34:02
  the conversation. You are in control of yourself,
• 34:05
  no matter what they say. You control how you
• 34:09
  respond. So you can twist and take this conversation
• 34:13
  to a place that you think is right based on the
• 34:16
  relationship you want to build. But take that
• 34:19
  minute to find that real human interest. I promise
• 34:24
  you, you guys, I don't know if Michael mentioned
• 34:25
  it, but I'm also a TED Talk producer. It's my
• 34:28
  sort of part -time pro bono community activity.
• 34:31
  I've produced over 80 TEDx and TED Talks. And
• 34:34
  what I've learned is that everyone, in this world
• 34:38
  everyone has an idea that can make things different
• 34:43
  and better and that is worth sharing and if i
• 34:47
  take a beat and get to know that person now if
• 34:51
  i'm in a networking context i want to be careful
• 34:53
  i don't spend all my time with one individual
• 34:57
  because that's not the intention or the purpose
• 35:00
  of the event but i want to go in deep enough
• 35:02
  to figure out their humanness and not just the
• 35:07
  label on their business card before I move on
• 35:09
  to the next person. Outstanding. Very good. Cher,
• 35:14
  I can't begin to tell you how glad I am that
• 35:18
  you came on this podcast. I feel that we can
• 35:20
  talk another two hours if we want to. because
• 35:24
  you're very easy to talk to. And you obviously
• 35:26
  were very good at what you did because the way
• 35:29
  that you speak, the way that you negotiate, everything
• 35:33
  had a very calming effect on me. I don't know
• 35:36
  about my listeners, but on me. So I think you
• 35:39
  did very well. If somebody wanted to get hold
• 35:41
  of you, how would they do it? I appreciate it.
• 35:44
  I am now all over the place because of this book.
• 35:47
  Feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I will
• 35:49
  warn your audience. I do get a lot of messages
• 35:53
  and connection requests on LinkedIn. I promise
• 35:55
  I get to every single one. Just sometimes it
• 35:57
  takes me a week or two. But if you want to reach
• 36:00
  out to me on LinkedIn, I'm more than happy to
• 36:02
  respond to you. You can also go to www .sharminkruze
• 36:06
  .com. That is my impossible to say and even more
• 36:09
  impossible to spell name. And that is the website
• 36:12
  I chose. So you can also just Google Stoic Empathy
• 36:18
  and I will come up. Very good. Cher, I can't
• 36:23
  begin to tell you how nice this was, how great
• 36:25
  this was. And I look forward to speaking with
• 36:28
  you again. Thank you. I do, too. I had a great
• 36:31
  time. Thanks for having me on. Well, hold on,
• 36:35
  folks. Don't go anywhere. Let me just read a
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  to revvedupkids .org. That's R -E -V -V -E -D
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  -U -P -K -I -D -S dot org. Well, that's a wrap,
• 37:53
  folks. A huge thank you to our special guests
• 37:56
  for sharing such incredible insights today. And
• 38:00
  of course, a big shout out to you, our amazing
• 38:03
  listeners, for tuning in and spending your time
• 38:06
  with us. Remember, networking isn't about being
• 38:10
  perfect. It's about being present. So take what
• 38:13
  you've learned today, get out there and make
• 38:16
  some meaningful connections. If you enjoyed this
• 38:19
  episode. Don't forget to subscribe, leave us
• 38:22
  a review, and share it with someone who could
• 38:24
  use a little networking inspiration. Let's keep
• 38:28
  the conversation going. You can find me on Apple,
• 38:32
  Spotify, YouTube, or my website, michaelaforman.
• 38:36
  Remember, until next time, keep practicing, keep
• 38:40
  connecting, and keep building those relationships.
• 38:43
  This is Michael A. Foreman signing off. Take
• 38:46
  care and happy networking.