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How the Paleo Diet Works · Stuff You Should Know

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Speaker 1: Welcome to you, Stuff you should know from house stuff
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Speaker 1: works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
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Speaker 1: Josh Clark, and there's Charles w. Chuck Bryant and Jerry
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Speaker 1: and this is stuff you should know the podcast. Hm. Hey,
0:37
Speaker 1: congratulations to Jerry. Oh yeah, she's got married. Congratulations Jerry,
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Speaker 1: way to go. She just gave a thumbs up. She
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Speaker 1: has the right. Germain silent. Yeah, So congratulations to Jerry
0:49
Speaker 1: and Anna and uh sadly Jerry had to go to
0:51
Speaker 1: a different state to get married, but she did it, yes,
0:56
Speaker 1: because they have initiative. That's right, don't you, Jerry. Yeah.
1:00
Speaker 1: Some of the nice yeah congratulations chairs were very happy
1:05
Speaker 1: for you guys. Um so happy in fact that we
1:09
Speaker 1: have a podcast. I just realized I said I'm very
1:11
Speaker 1: happy for you guys, and its sounded not at all
1:13
Speaker 1: happy for them. I'm very happy for you. I'm really
1:16
Speaker 1: happy for you guys. Yeah, but I think everybody bought that.
1:21
Speaker 1: You're happy for him. Everybody knows you, they know me. Well,
1:24
Speaker 1: Jerry bought it, and that's what counts. Jerry, did you
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Speaker 1: buy it? Think interesting? I like your French chuck thanks
1:33
Speaker 1: to something I know how to say. Uh is it? No?
1:38
Speaker 1: I mean I've got the bonjour down and Frosch fries,
1:42
Speaker 1: Frosch bread, France dressing, fross dressing. Uh. So you say
1:49
Speaker 1: all those things, French dressing, French bread, French fries, and
1:54
Speaker 1: I can tell you that none of them were around
1:59
Speaker 1: years ago. Nice segue, my friend. It wasn't. It was
2:02
Speaker 1: pretty clumsy. It felt clumsy, but thank you. Yeah. Are
2:07
Speaker 1: you talking about the Paleo diet? Yeah, which, by the way,
2:12
Speaker 1: short for Paleolithic diet. And um, this thing's been around
2:16
Speaker 1: longer than I thought. The book was written by a
2:19
Speaker 1: guy named Dr Lauren Cordain, the creator of the Paleo
2:23
Speaker 1: Diet back in two thousand two, and um, Dr Cordain
2:27
Speaker 1: is no slouch. He is a celebrated PhD in Health
2:33
Speaker 1: and Health sciences UM, and he started looking at the
2:40
Speaker 1: massive chronic health problems that face Westerners and Americans in particular,
2:46
Speaker 1: I think we might be the most chronically unhealthy country
2:50
Speaker 1: in the world. Um, as far as like beats, obesity,
2:54
Speaker 1: heart disease, all of these things go uh, and Dr
2:58
Speaker 1: Cordin is like, there's out to be a better way.
3:01
Speaker 1: And what he focused on was the idea that the
3:05
Speaker 1: Western diet is also a very modern diet, full full
3:09
Speaker 1: of processed foods, foods that are pre prepared, prepackaged, boxed.
3:15
Speaker 1: Even a lot of the pictures of the food are
3:18
Speaker 1: on the box laden with chemicals, vaive, stuff you're not
3:22
Speaker 1: gonna do at home, and um, stuff that tastes really good,
3:27
Speaker 1: mainly because it's been designed to taste really good. Um.
3:31
Speaker 1: The problem is Dr Cordain believes this stuff is really
3:35
Speaker 1: bad for us because of those preservatives as chemicals, and
3:38
Speaker 1: a lot of the good stuff that was present in
3:40
Speaker 1: and at one point has been worked out removed. So
3:44
Speaker 1: his idea was, well, let's create a diet that's the
3:47
Speaker 1: opposite of modern, that's prehistoric even. And what he came
3:52
Speaker 1: up with was the paleo or Paleolithic diet. And the
3:55
Speaker 1: Paleolithic era um ended at about the advent of agriculture.
4:02
Speaker 1: So the premise of the diet is like all of
4:05
Speaker 1: this stuff would be the same diet that a hunter
4:07
Speaker 1: gatherer would eat. Yeah, And the idea is, and this
4:10
Speaker 1: is there's a lot of controversy. Not everyone believes us
4:13
Speaker 1: any there's controversy with every diet, with every diet, But
4:16
Speaker 1: if you subscribe to this, the idea is that our
4:20
Speaker 1: body chemistry and physiology has not changed. Like if you
4:25
Speaker 1: look at a if you think of it like a
4:27
Speaker 1: hundred yard football field, we went ninety nine yards as
4:31
Speaker 1: hunter gatherers, and then the last yard is since agriculture
4:37
Speaker 1: has come around, that's the longest yard. So are so
4:40
Speaker 1: our bodies have not changed genetically and they're the same
4:45
Speaker 1: way they were back then. So to eat how they
4:48
Speaker 1: were back then and they did for thousands and thousands
4:51
Speaker 1: of years, makes more sense with that analogy with what
4:56
Speaker 1: happens when we succore a touchdown, like is at the
4:59
Speaker 1: end of vanity. I don't know, Um, but the dude
5:03
Speaker 1: you mentioned he wasn't the first. That was actually a
5:05
Speaker 1: guy in the seventies that wrote a book. Um Walter
5:09
Speaker 1: Voting wrote a self published book in seventy five called
5:12
Speaker 1: The Stone Age Diet. Oh, I didn't know that based
5:15
Speaker 1: on in depth studies of human ecology and the diet
5:17
Speaker 1: of man. But like I said, it was self published
5:19
Speaker 1: and he didn't like it didn't blow up. It definitely
5:23
Speaker 1: took till the two thousands to gain traction. Has Cordaine
5:27
Speaker 1: like given this guy credit and he said, like he's
5:29
Speaker 1: based his ideas on this guy or what. I don't know,
5:32
Speaker 1: but I think he was the first guy to actually
5:34
Speaker 1: coin that term. But um, yeah, these are people who
5:37
Speaker 1: subscribed to that notion that since we haven't changed physiologically
5:42
Speaker 1: and how we're supposed to eat, then we shouldn't be
5:44
Speaker 1: eating how we're eating, right, we should eat how we
5:46
Speaker 1: used to eat. I would suggest that that's not necessarily true.
5:49
Speaker 1: And part of the problem with saying things like that,
5:52
Speaker 1: or saying like, you know this is this is how
5:57
Speaker 1: paleolithic body human body um absorbed nutrients or these are
6:02
Speaker 1: the nutrients that could absorbed. You're you're making a pretty
6:06
Speaker 1: broad and unsubstantiated claim in and of itself, like they did. Okay, Well, also,
6:11
Speaker 1: you don't have a paleolithic body to dissect to study. Um.
6:16
Speaker 1: All you have are modern bodies and assumptions about what
6:20
Speaker 1: paleolithic diets were like. Now, I mean, there are still
6:24
Speaker 1: hunter gatherer tribes currently, but I haven't seen anybody say, well,
6:29
Speaker 1: we study these hunter gatherer tribes specifically for a very
6:32
Speaker 1: long time, and we've concluded that this paleo diet is
6:37
Speaker 1: is totally supported by this. It's basically people saying, no,
6:43
Speaker 1: this is what Paleolithic people would have eaten, so this
6:46
Speaker 1: is how how their body would have been. And when
6:47
Speaker 1: they make a step to that second sentence, you're you're
6:51
Speaker 1: making a jump into an unsubstantiated claim. Just keep that
6:56
Speaker 1: in mind. That's all. And like you said, every every
7:00
Speaker 1: diet on earth is you're gonna find studies that say
7:03
Speaker 1: they're great and studies that say they're not so great.
7:06
Speaker 1: You're going to find people who say the food pyramid
7:08
Speaker 1: is what you should look at, and other people to
7:10
Speaker 1: say the food pyramids out of whack and we shouldn't
7:13
Speaker 1: be eating that many grains. Pyramid is out of whack. Yeah.
7:17
Speaker 1: But like you know, there is no definitive right or wrong.
7:22
Speaker 1: I think because every time there's a study done, it
7:25
Speaker 1: seems like there's another study that can refute it. You
7:29
Speaker 1: just hit the nail on the head. There is no
7:31
Speaker 1: right or wrong because we don't understand our body, our
7:35
Speaker 1: bodies and our bodies metabolic processes enough to say this
7:40
Speaker 1: one's right and this one's wrong for everybody. Yeah, you know,
7:44
Speaker 1: there's no there's no baseline that's been established. We don't
7:47
Speaker 1: know quite enough yet. And so the problem has been
7:50
Speaker 1: as we've set ourselves back decade after decade by basically
7:56
Speaker 1: picking a study whichever one got the media play and
8:00
Speaker 1: seemed the most sensible, and going with that, throwing lots
8:04
Speaker 1: of money and education, time and effort at bolstering that
8:11
Speaker 1: the findings of that study, even though it may or
8:13
Speaker 1: may not have been the case, rather than just saying, like,
8:16
Speaker 1: we're still figuring it out in the meantime, we think
8:19
Speaker 1: maybe don't eat so much of this or whatever. Yeah,
8:22
Speaker 1: And I think that that's set us back quite a bit,
8:24
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about more later. Yeah. And I think
8:27
Speaker 1: just personally, like, if you're if you're doing it healthily,
8:30
Speaker 1: then find something that works for you. If that's Sugar Busters, great,
8:33
Speaker 1: if that's Atkins, or if that's Weight Watchers or Jenny
8:37
Speaker 1: Craig or super Calorie Restriction or whatever. Not everything is
8:42
Speaker 1: gonna work for everyone, you know, or or paleo you
8:46
Speaker 1: know what are the other names, the warrior diet or
8:48
Speaker 1: the caveman diet. They're you know, they're fads, but that
8:53
Speaker 1: doesn't mean there can't be something to some of them
8:55
Speaker 1: for some people. Well, the other thing I think about
8:57
Speaker 1: diets that makes each one so controversial two is that
9:01
Speaker 1: they do end up ultimately being fats. But every single
9:04
Speaker 1: one of the diets aspires to be that one diet
9:09
Speaker 1: that works for everybody. They all kind of claim that,
9:13
Speaker 1: and that's to sell books, you know, let's get real,
9:16
Speaker 1: But there are It's not like these things are are
9:19
Speaker 1: necessarily just totally made up out of the whole cloth.
9:23
Speaker 1: Like we'll talk about the paleo diet and and and
9:27
Speaker 1: the basis of it. Right. So the whole idea is
9:30
Speaker 1: is that, like I said, the modern diet has a
9:33
Speaker 1: lot of foods involved in it that are not good
9:37
Speaker 1: for you. And by cutting those things out, that's step one, Yeah,
9:42
Speaker 1: basically eating cleaner. Right. But step two isn't just like, okay,
9:46
Speaker 1: so anything that you can find growing on a tree
9:49
Speaker 1: or you know that that has a face and you
9:52
Speaker 1: and you can eat it, um besides humans is healthy
9:56
Speaker 1: for you. Um, there's if you take it a little
10:01
Speaker 1: bit further, Uh, there's some things that you really shouldn't
10:03
Speaker 1: eat according to the Paleo diet. One of the things
10:06
Speaker 1: that it's centered around are foods that if you have
10:09
Speaker 1: to cook them to gain nutrients from them, Like beans
10:13
Speaker 1: are a really good example. Uh, you can't eat them.
10:17
Speaker 1: You don't want them. In the case of the Paleo diet,
10:20
Speaker 1: the reason is they affect gut health supposedly, right, what else, welch,
10:26
Speaker 1: I mean, should we just go ahead and talk about
10:27
Speaker 1: what is on the good list and the bad list?
10:30
Speaker 1: Just so if you, I mean you've probably heard of
10:32
Speaker 1: the diet before, especially lately, but generally very high in protein. Yeah,
10:38
Speaker 1: And a lot of people make the mistake of saying like, oh,
10:40
Speaker 1: it's just like eating huge steaks all the time, and
10:42
Speaker 1: and you know, pulling pulling women by their hair like
10:46
Speaker 1: it's like that. It's actually now they say proteins like
10:49
Speaker 1: fifteen or nineteen of the diet, right, whereas um protein
10:55
Speaker 1: for the average diet here in the West is about
11:00
Speaker 1: so more protein. Um. And when we say protein, we
11:04
Speaker 1: mean poultry and pork and fish and eggs, and uh,
11:07
Speaker 1: you know, even red meat is on there of course. Uh,
11:11
Speaker 1: then lower carbohydrates, like a lower amount of carbohydrates and
11:18
Speaker 1: different kinds of carbohydrates. That's right, Um, The carbs you
11:22
Speaker 1: want are slow burning carbs. UM. And the idea behind
11:26
Speaker 1: this extends beyond just the paleo diet. There's a lot
11:29
Speaker 1: of diets, including Atkins, that believe in lowering carbs, and
11:34
Speaker 1: they based it on But it's not no carbs. You
11:37
Speaker 1: do want some carbs because your body does need some energy.
11:41
Speaker 1: But you you do want some carbs, but you want
11:43
Speaker 1: carbs from things like an apple, or from celery or
11:47
Speaker 1: black olives, things that are slow burning carbs that will
11:51
Speaker 1: give you energy without raising your blood sugar. Something with
11:54
Speaker 1: them low on the glycemic index. Yeah, that's how it's scored.
11:58
Speaker 1: So something that has about fifty five or lower on
12:02
Speaker 1: the glycemic index is considered low. And that's what you
12:06
Speaker 1: want as far as the carbohydrate is concerned, because it
12:09
Speaker 1: is going to give you energy without raising your blood sugar.
12:12
Speaker 1: When you raise your blood sugar, as I think we've
12:14
Speaker 1: talked about recently, UM, the insulin comes out to stabilize
12:18
Speaker 1: your blood sugar well, insulince and is a signal to
12:21
Speaker 1: your liver to start producing fat for storage and that's
12:26
Speaker 1: why you tend to gain weight when you eat carbohydrates,
12:31
Speaker 1: because your blood sugar spikes and your insulin comes out. Yeah.
12:34
Speaker 1: And the difference, like, that's the difference between eating a
12:36
Speaker 1: sweet potato or a regular baked potato. Sweet potato, good,
12:40
Speaker 1: baked potato not so good. Yeah, And it's glycemic index
12:42
Speaker 1: both carbohydrates though, right. The problem is also is the
12:45
Speaker 1: glycemic index is extraordinarily unproven. Still it's a I don't
12:50
Speaker 1: know that it's a relatively new thing, but it's been
12:53
Speaker 1: used much more frequently recently. But if you start really
12:57
Speaker 1: looking into the glycemic index, any uh reasonable source will say, like,
13:03
Speaker 1: here's the glycemic index. This is a pretty good understanding
13:06
Speaker 1: of it. But the difference between a tart apple in
13:10
Speaker 1: a very ripe sweet apple. You can't just say apples
13:14
Speaker 1: have a glycemic index of whatever, like one that's ripened
13:17
Speaker 1: more than another that's just the same exact apple from
13:21
Speaker 1: the same tree. You're going to have radically different glycemic induseries.
13:25
Speaker 1: That's interesting. So I mean, like a solid point too,
13:27
Speaker 1: because it seems like there are too many definitive statements
13:31
Speaker 1: about diet when there shouldn't be. Absolutely the one that
13:35
Speaker 1: I think keeps coming up again and again. That's the
13:38
Speaker 1: most sensible is Well, we'll get too later, but it
13:41
Speaker 1: involves it's moderation basically. You know, paying attention to your
13:45
Speaker 1: food is very important, but but moderation, you know, like
13:49
Speaker 1: eating a bunch of Twinkies over the course of your lifetime,
13:53
Speaker 1: it's not gonna kill you. But if you have to
13:55
Speaker 1: box of twinkies a day, like that's that's kill you.
13:58
Speaker 1: And that's a moderate moderate ration. Is is I think
14:01
Speaker 1: the key to health. I agree, man, And that's sort
14:03
Speaker 1: of the key to I think most things in life. Yeah,
14:06
Speaker 1: I mean it pops up everywhere like moderation. Our moderation
14:10
Speaker 1: is the spice of life. No, I don't think that's
14:14
Speaker 1: the phrase, but uh so. Fiber fiber is a big
14:18
Speaker 1: part of the paleo diet. Um fiber is super great
14:21
Speaker 1: for your health. And people are getting too much fiber
14:26
Speaker 1: from um grains, or at least the thought is that
14:31
Speaker 1: you're getting too much fiber from your grains, whereas you
14:33
Speaker 1: should get it um and things like fruits maybe or
14:39
Speaker 1: whole grains instead of refined grains, non starchy vegetables. Uh yeah.
14:45
Speaker 1: And you if you're if you're counting carbs to um
14:50
Speaker 1: on like a low carb or no carb restricted diet
14:54
Speaker 1: like say Atkins or something. You actually look at the
14:57
Speaker 1: total carbohydrates and then some act dietary fiber to come
15:02
Speaker 1: up with what's called net carbohydrates, and those are the
15:04
Speaker 1: ones that you actually count because apparently fiber is counted
15:09
Speaker 1: toward carbohydrates, which is why it shows up in things
15:11
Speaker 1: like non starchy vegetables and things like that. But um
15:16
Speaker 1: it doesn't raise your blood sugar, which is what we
15:18
Speaker 1: come back to again and again and again. Okay, as
15:21
Speaker 1: far as weight loss is concerned, right, another part of
15:25
Speaker 1: the paleo diet is um fat intake, higher fat intake,
15:31
Speaker 1: but the what they call the right kinds of fats
15:34
Speaker 1: um oh make it three and o maga six fats mainly,
15:38
Speaker 1: so you want to get into that, Yeah, I think
15:42
Speaker 1: it's time. So this is a well before we do, man,
15:45
Speaker 1: let's pull back from the precipice here and take a
15:47
Speaker 1: message breaks so quickly to recap things that you're gonna
15:54
Speaker 1: be eating on the paleo diet or lots of protein,
15:58
Speaker 1: lots of protein, um to vegetables, slow burning carbohydrates, fruits, nuts,
16:04
Speaker 1: things that you might have hunted and gathered, but not today.
16:07
Speaker 1: Not beans, not legumes, not modern processed foods. Yeah, not
16:11
Speaker 1: salt and refined sugar is a really big no no. Yeah,
16:15
Speaker 1: and we got too fat and um, this is extremely controversial.
16:21
Speaker 1: I thought this super interesting. The well, the paleo diet,
16:23
Speaker 1: like pretty much any any typical diet these days, recommends
16:28
Speaker 1: that you really take it easy on the animal fats um.
16:33
Speaker 1: And the idea that the reason why pretty much everybody
16:37
Speaker 1: recommends you take it easy on animal fats saturated fats,
16:41
Speaker 1: which are steeric acid, palmitic acid, and louric acid. Um.
16:46
Speaker 1: Those are the three biggest saturated fats found in animal fats.
16:51
Speaker 1: The idea that that everybody has for um steering clear
16:55
Speaker 1: of them is because they will give you heart disease,
16:58
Speaker 1: heart attacks, coronary disease. Yeah, if you eat too many
17:03
Speaker 1: saturated fats, you're gonna die of a heart attack exactly.
17:06
Speaker 1: This idea gave rise to a complete change in diet
17:12
Speaker 1: among Americans and Westerners in general. The whole concept of
17:18
Speaker 1: a low fat diet, which your is everywhere you go
17:22
Speaker 1: to any store. It's like fat free, low fat, fat free,
17:24
Speaker 1: low fat. Everything is low fat now there's a version
17:27
Speaker 1: of its low fat came from an initial study from
17:31
Speaker 1: the fifties by a guy named Ansel Keys who carried
17:35
Speaker 1: out what's called the Six Countries study, and he basically
17:40
Speaker 1: was the first to link animal fat intake too heart disease. Yeah,
17:46
Speaker 1: and it's uh, what do they call it? The diet
17:48
Speaker 1: heart hypothesis, And um, what stinks about that whole scene
17:53
Speaker 1: is that he sort of did the elementary school science
17:58
Speaker 1: fair project approach, which is he kind of ignored the
18:02
Speaker 1: data that didn't support what he wanted and cherry picked
18:05
Speaker 1: out the data that did and went with it. And
18:08
Speaker 1: somehow like even though there was like some opposition to
18:12
Speaker 1: it at the time, somehow it became the basis for
18:16
Speaker 1: how Americans were told to eat from now on, even
18:19
Speaker 1: though it was flawed. Uh. I mean, for instance, one
18:24
Speaker 1: of the countries he studied was the United States. One
18:26
Speaker 1: of them was Japan. And he kind of said, hey,
18:28
Speaker 1: they have way more heart attacks in the US than
18:30
Speaker 1: in Japan. It's because he eat more fat. Yeah, they
18:33
Speaker 1: eat more animal fat and they have more heart attacks.
18:36
Speaker 1: Eats less animal fat and has fewer heart attacks. If so. Fact,
18:40
Speaker 1: though eating animal fat leads to heart attacks, and heart disease, right,
18:44
Speaker 1: not not considering the amount of sugar Americans aid, or
18:47
Speaker 1: bread or nothing, lifestyle or anything. Yes, no, he didn't.
18:51
Speaker 1: Nothing else was controlled for. So that was part one.
18:53
Speaker 1: Part two is, like you said, he cherry picks six
18:56
Speaker 1: countries that supported his hypothesis. Uh. And at the time
19:00
Speaker 1: some other people pointed out, uh, countries. Yeah, we've got
19:05
Speaker 1: a data for twenty two countries. And when you take
19:07
Speaker 1: all that data and do it a survey across the
19:10
Speaker 1: twenty two countries of a correlation between animal fat intake
19:14
Speaker 1: and heart disease, it goes away that correlation dissolves, not
19:18
Speaker 1: only dissolves, but like disproves it in some cases. Uh.
19:23
Speaker 1: The death rate from heart disease in Finland, for instance,
19:26
Speaker 1: was twenty four times that of Mexico, even though in
19:29
Speaker 1: Mexico the fat consumption rate was uh twice as much
19:32
Speaker 1: as Finland. That's right. So that's complete opposite finding. So
19:36
Speaker 1: Keys does the six country study in the fifties, and
19:39
Speaker 1: then in nine he follows up with the seven country study. Uh.
19:44
Speaker 1: Well he this to this time he did Japan, Italy,
19:47
Speaker 1: the US, Greece, Yugoslavia, Finland, and the Netherlands. And he
19:51
Speaker 1: found the animal fat was a strong predictor of heart
19:53
Speaker 1: attacks over a five year period. Again, Um, they basically said, dude,
19:58
Speaker 1: what are you doing, Like you're you're not doing good
20:01
Speaker 1: science here. And it's unclear, I should say, it's unclear
20:04
Speaker 1: whether keys misrepresented his data. Um, he published his findings
20:10
Speaker 1: like all that's fine. He wasn't like, I'm just not
20:13
Speaker 1: going to publish this. It was more like in his
20:15
Speaker 1: discussion at the end of the studies, they he was
20:19
Speaker 1: saying like, yeah, this kind of came up, but we're
20:22
Speaker 1: not paying attention to that. It doesn't matter, So he
20:25
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily misrepresent the facts. He It seems like he
20:29
Speaker 1: was more a victim of the media saying, yes, there's
20:34
Speaker 1: the answer. We've been wondering why Americans die more heart attacks.
20:37
Speaker 1: This guy just figured it out. It's animal fat and
20:40
Speaker 1: takes saturated fats, and it took off like a rocket
20:43
Speaker 1: from there. In the seventies. Well, it's sort of I mean,
20:45
Speaker 1: it makes sense to the ear. When you hear saturated fats,
20:48
Speaker 1: it sounds like, well, that's gotta clog your arteries and
20:51
Speaker 1: give you a heart attack. Saturated well, you know it's
20:53
Speaker 1: saturated with the word saturated means that there's no double
20:57
Speaker 1: bonds of carbon in these atty change these fatty acid chains.
21:02
Speaker 1: So unsaturated means that there's at least one atom of
21:05
Speaker 1: carbon linked to another atom of carbon in the chain.
21:08
Speaker 1: In a saturated fat, there's hydrogen carbons linking all of
21:12
Speaker 1: the carbon atoms together. That's it. It's saturated with hydrogen carbon.
21:16
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean it saturates your arteries right and clogs
21:19
Speaker 1: it up, which is what it sounds like exactly. And
21:21
Speaker 1: so Keys comes up with this, It takes off like
21:24
Speaker 1: a rocket. It becomes adopted officially by the federal government
21:28
Speaker 1: to encourage a low fat diet, and study after study
21:33
Speaker 1: after study just kind of follows and Keys footsteps. The
21:36
Speaker 1: thing is is if you really kind of look at
21:38
Speaker 1: these studies, especially ones that are just pointed to, is
21:41
Speaker 1: like these are definitive proof that the that that animal fat,
21:47
Speaker 1: that saturated fat intake uh produces heart attacks. They kind
21:51
Speaker 1: of all fall apart, and you realize that for decades now,
21:55
Speaker 1: we've just been taken as gospel a first of all,
21:59
Speaker 1: an unproven correlation as causation, like completely unproven as far
22:07
Speaker 1: as like you know, unarguable evidence goes yeah, And there
22:11
Speaker 1: is definitely a dogma that's evolved around this that's been
22:14
Speaker 1: tough to crack. But a lot of scientists have been
22:17
Speaker 1: creating research and publishing research that says, look, man, we
22:22
Speaker 1: don't understand fat like you think. It's not black and
22:24
Speaker 1: white and as simple as that, Like, for example, there's
22:28
Speaker 1: l d L fat and there's HDL fat, and people
22:31
Speaker 1: typically think that HDL is good fat. L d L
22:34
Speaker 1: is bad fat. Yes, right, So if you have and
22:39
Speaker 1: your body uses cholesterol to do things that produce hormones,
22:42
Speaker 1: especially sex hormones, so you need cholesterol, right, But it's
22:46
Speaker 1: the idea that you're that animal fats raise your l
22:51
Speaker 1: d L, which is the bad cholesterol. Uh, that that
22:55
Speaker 1: gave them this bad rap. But even if you look
22:58
Speaker 1: at LDL cholesterol, not all the L cholesterol is the same.
23:01
Speaker 1: There's different things called subfractions, and depending on the subfraction,
23:07
Speaker 1: these start to correlate to heart disease finally, right, right,
23:12
Speaker 1: So some are small dns types of l d L
23:16
Speaker 1: and some are puffy and right exactly, and the pillowy
23:19
Speaker 1: ones are fine. They seem to be totally fine. And
23:22
Speaker 1: what they found also is that the overall ratio of
23:27
Speaker 1: pillowy to dnse L d L is what finally you
23:34
Speaker 1: can get a good predictor of heart disease risk, not
23:39
Speaker 1: just L d L cholesterol, but the ratio. Like you
23:44
Speaker 1: can't even say, well, this guy's got a ton of
23:46
Speaker 1: small dense ld L particles in his bloodstream, so he's
23:50
Speaker 1: going to die of a heart attack. That's not necessarily
23:52
Speaker 1: true because you haven't taken into account the fluffiness. And
23:56
Speaker 1: if you have more fluffiness then dense articles, then it's
24:01
Speaker 1: gonna even out. Yeah. Well, I like Ronald Krauss. He's
24:05
Speaker 1: a doctor out at UC Berkeley. He seems to kind
24:08
Speaker 1: of be hitting it on the head with at least
24:10
Speaker 1: how he's characterizing some of this stuff. Uh Like, one
24:14
Speaker 1: of his statements that struck me was he said it
24:16
Speaker 1: may these findings may simply suggest that unsaturated fats are
24:22
Speaker 1: are a healthier option, but not necessarily that saturated fats
24:25
Speaker 1: are killing you. And that's just a very like reasonable
24:29
Speaker 1: thing to say to me. Yeah, he seemed like a
24:32
Speaker 1: very reasonable guy when he came in the other day. Well,
24:36
Speaker 1: in this article, and we should say this is the
24:38
Speaker 1: NBC um really exhaustive NBC news article called what if
24:42
Speaker 1: bad fat isn't so bad? It's really worth reading? Well,
24:45
Speaker 1: it is, and one of the lead how the article
24:47
Speaker 1: leads in is super interesting. Um. They have found tribes
24:50
Speaker 1: in Africa, one called the mess ay Uh nomadic tribe
24:54
Speaker 1: in Kenya in Tanzania, and they basically live on a
24:57
Speaker 1: diet of fat, of of supplemented with blood from cattle,
25:02
Speaker 1: they heard, but they basically exist on red meat and
25:05
Speaker 1: whole milk. They're die it's like fat, and they're super
25:09
Speaker 1: lean and they're super healthy. And their cholesterol levels were
25:13
Speaker 1: some of the lowest they've ever measured in people. Right.
25:16
Speaker 1: So people who responded to this these these findings said, well,
25:20
Speaker 1: obviously them as I have some sort of genetic predisposition
25:24
Speaker 1: to lower cholesterol. Somehow, there's something going on. No, because
25:29
Speaker 1: they studied a group of these these tribes, people who
25:32
Speaker 1: moved to the city and basically adopted a Western diet,
25:36
Speaker 1: and all of them just immediately there they went right
25:39
Speaker 1: into the normal levels of risk for heart disease. UM.
25:43
Speaker 1: So it's clear that it's not just animal fats that
25:48
Speaker 1: are associated with heart disease, and they may not really
25:51
Speaker 1: be associated with heart disease at all, we're kind of
25:54
Speaker 1: in the stage now where science is undoing the damage
25:58
Speaker 1: while it still hasn't figured out the true answer. They
26:01
Speaker 1: just know that the that the the hot the the
26:05
Speaker 1: heart diet hypothesis has is not correct. There was more too.
26:10
Speaker 1: Why did Congress in nineteen seventy seven say this is
26:13
Speaker 1: the way to go even though the American Medical Association
26:16
Speaker 1: said this is not necessarily true? Why did Why is
26:19
Speaker 1: the food pyramid endorsed? Does it have something to do
26:22
Speaker 1: with people lobbying for grains? Like? Who knows? Um? And
26:28
Speaker 1: apparently it wasn't just nineteen seventy seven. They very recently
26:31
Speaker 1: also um the government endorsed and even lower saturated fat diet,
26:37
Speaker 1: like they dropped the percentage of calories daily from ten
26:40
Speaker 1: percent to seven percent, like this year or last year.
26:44
Speaker 1: And the big problem with this is that like it's
26:48
Speaker 1: not like, oh, all these people missed out on all
26:50
Speaker 1: that prime rib. They could have been eating the whole time, right,
26:53
Speaker 1: That's not the problem with it. The problem is is
26:55
Speaker 1: like when we adapt, when we adapted adopted this low
26:58
Speaker 1: fat diet, fat gives taste to food, Yeah, delicious taste,
27:04
Speaker 1: it does. So when you remove fat, you you you're
27:08
Speaker 1: not gonna sell a product that's just fat free or
27:10
Speaker 1: even low fat unless you add more salt, unless you
27:13
Speaker 1: add more sugar. So if you look at the nutrition
27:15
Speaker 1: info on a low fat product, like yeah, there's lower fat,
27:20
Speaker 1: but buddy, you've got a lot more calories than you do.
27:22
Speaker 1: And just the regular version of that side by side,
27:26
Speaker 1: which if you look at the medical records of every American,
27:31
Speaker 1: if you could from the sixties to today, you would
27:35
Speaker 1: find that while we reduced our intake of fat by
27:38
Speaker 1: a third, race of obesity multiplied by almost three times,
27:43
Speaker 1: and then eleven times where people have diabetes. Yeah, and
27:47
Speaker 1: I think it's a it's a truth that they found
27:49
Speaker 1: that people eat more of low fat foods because they
27:53
Speaker 1: think they can. Yes, like, oh, it's just low fat mayo,
27:56
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna slather up both sides of my sandwich
27:59
Speaker 1: bread because it's low fat. And again this, well that's why,
28:03
Speaker 1: Like I'm not a paleo diet guy, but I think
28:06
Speaker 1: there's definitely something to eating cleaner. And you know, a
28:11
Speaker 1: doctor and a nutritionist that knows what they're doing, I'll
28:13
Speaker 1: tell you straight up, like don't eat things from a
28:15
Speaker 1: box in your headed in the right direction. Yeah, it's true. Um,
28:19
Speaker 1: and anything that's kind of been taken from its natural state,
28:23
Speaker 1: even if it's like not in a box. Like for example,
28:26
Speaker 1: I did a brain stuff on what's the difference between
28:29
Speaker 1: whole milk and skim milk. Well, skim milk is really really,
28:32
Speaker 1: really messed around with milk, I processed, you could say,
28:36
Speaker 1: whereas whole milk you're like, oh, it's got a ton
28:38
Speaker 1: of fat, and I mean like that's cream mixed in there.
28:41
Speaker 1: That's it's whole milk for a reason. It's not messed
28:44
Speaker 1: around with. I mean, yes, there's the whole thing with antibiotics,
28:47
Speaker 1: and you may be lactose and taller, But I'm just
28:48
Speaker 1: saying specifically from a nutritional point of view, if you
28:52
Speaker 1: have whole milk, you have whole milk. If you have
28:55
Speaker 1: skim milk, you have milk that's had the fat removed
28:58
Speaker 1: and replaced with some thing like high fruit toast, corn
29:01
Speaker 1: syrup or something like that, some powdered milk proteins. It's
29:04
Speaker 1: it's messed around, it's it's processed. It's not the same thing.
29:08
Speaker 1: And the other problem with drinking anything but whole milk
29:11
Speaker 1: is that when you take the fat the milk fats out,
29:15
Speaker 1: which by the way, some uh margeric acid has been
29:18
Speaker 1: shown to actually lower your risk of heart disease. It
29:21
Speaker 1: actually increase your HDL good cholesterol. Um. When you take
29:25
Speaker 1: the milk fats out, you're also taking out the vitamin
29:27
Speaker 1: A and the vitamin D and those are fat soluble,
29:31
Speaker 1: which means that fat needs to be present for your
29:33
Speaker 1: body to absorb them. Yeah, and you can make up
29:35
Speaker 1: for that in other areas, but you have to know
29:37
Speaker 1: to do that. It's like people who jump on and
29:41
Speaker 1: become like vegan or vegetarian, like you have to do
29:44
Speaker 1: your homework. If you want to do that, that's great,
29:46
Speaker 1: but you need to find a way to give your
29:48
Speaker 1: body the things that needs that maybe uh was in
29:52
Speaker 1: that milk or that red meat. Like with the paleo
29:56
Speaker 1: diet that they say stay away from dairy, which I
30:00
Speaker 1: disagree with. Yeah, this I found that some paleo will
30:04
Speaker 1: drink dairy or ingested dairy. It's sort of a but
30:08
Speaker 1: it definitely isn't endorsed. But it's it's interesting that like
30:11
Speaker 1: we're the only animal that drinks milk into their life,
30:16
Speaker 1: like after after we're you know, weaned off of it. Yeah,
30:20
Speaker 1: I thought it's It's definitely an odd thing, and that's
30:23
Speaker 1: I think that's why the Paleo they say not to
30:25
Speaker 1: drink milk because Caveman didn't, you know, go around milk
30:28
Speaker 1: and cows no, And I mean we are rear to
30:32
Speaker 1: drink milk. We remember in the Microbiome episode, we talked
30:35
Speaker 1: about how your your mother's like gut bacteria is transferred
30:39
Speaker 1: to you so that you can break down breast milk.
30:42
Speaker 1: So apparently the newest thing that I saw was that
30:46
Speaker 1: lactose intolerance comes from the fact that everybody can digest milk,
30:51
Speaker 1: but then only something like a third of humans keep
30:55
Speaker 1: maintain that ability to break down milk, and everybody else
30:58
Speaker 1: loses as they Yeah, it's interesting. I never really thought
31:04
Speaker 1: about it before. But no one else but us drinks
31:06
Speaker 1: milk as adults. You know, even goats they don't drink milk.
31:13
Speaker 1: So um, Before we keep going, let's you want to
31:16
Speaker 1: do another message break Yeah. Okay, hey, Chuck, I don't
31:24
Speaker 1: know if you know this or not, but this episode
31:26
Speaker 1: has brought to you in part by squarespace. That's right,
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Speaker 1: Well that sounds like a deal, my friend. It does,
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Speaker 1: So everybody go to squarespace dot com slash stuff and
32:35
Speaker 1: use the promo code stuff. So Chuck, you said, I
32:44
Speaker 1: wanted to also say you said that, Um, you know
32:46
Speaker 1: some paleo people say, well, you can still eat butter
32:49
Speaker 1: or something like that, or drink milk if you go
32:52
Speaker 1: on the paleo website and read stuff from Cordaine. He
32:57
Speaker 1: is like, there's people out there who are like pay
33:00
Speaker 1: leo experts who say you can eat leg ooms or
33:02
Speaker 1: you can have a little bird something. He's like, they're wrong,
33:05
Speaker 1: none of that right. Yeah, he's basically saying, like what
33:07
Speaker 1: I wrote is right, and like it's not an evolving
33:10
Speaker 1: concept that it's like you can't eat lagoons, you can't
33:14
Speaker 1: eat beans, like, it's not okay. There is something called
33:17
Speaker 1: the rule that he built into it, which I think
33:20
Speaker 1: was smart the time go paleo. Yes, you can have
33:25
Speaker 1: about three meals a week, um where that are non
33:28
Speaker 1: paleo and still get the benefits of the paleo diet
33:32
Speaker 1: according to the paleo diet. Hm, well it is that
33:36
Speaker 1: they found. Do they have any like definitive research. There
33:39
Speaker 1: is no definitive research on any of these, right, like
33:42
Speaker 1: that the paleo will cause you to be healthier. Yeah,
33:45
Speaker 1: I mean no, here's the thing, Like, from this episode,
33:49
Speaker 1: I think the one thing everybody should walk away with
33:51
Speaker 1: besides an understanding of the basics of the paleo diet.
33:54
Speaker 1: So are you saying this is the takeaway? All right?
33:57
Speaker 1: The takeaway is as follows, Chuck. If you see a
34:01
Speaker 1: study and uh, an article like, click on the link
34:07
Speaker 1: and read the abstract and see if the sample size
34:11
Speaker 1: is enough to convince you that it's a believable study. Yeah,
34:14
Speaker 1: we didn't even get into the four studies that a
34:17
Speaker 1: lot of the saturated fat argument is based on throughout
34:20
Speaker 1: the years. But there are four notable ones that are
34:22
Speaker 1: always pointed to, and every single one of them are
34:24
Speaker 1: flawed in some way. Yeah, I mean there's a there's
34:27
Speaker 1: a problem with it. And and I say that also because,
34:30
Speaker 1: like even the article that we have on how stuff
34:33
Speaker 1: works sites a two thousand nine study published in Cardiovascular Diabetology,
34:38
Speaker 1: which is a journal, and it found that um, people
34:42
Speaker 1: with type two diabetes who followed the paleo diet for
34:45
Speaker 1: three months benefited more than those who followed a standard
34:48
Speaker 1: recommended diet for diabetics. That sounds like a problematic study,
34:52
Speaker 1: Well it's it's but if you just read that sentence,
34:55
Speaker 1: and this is a very typical sentence for any media
34:59
Speaker 1: ar coal. You're like, oh, well, that proves that the
35:02
Speaker 1: paleo diet works. At least there's one study out there
35:05
Speaker 1: that proved that it works. But if you click the
35:07
Speaker 1: link and read the abstract, there were thirteen people in
35:10
Speaker 1: the study, ten men and three women. They were they
35:13
Speaker 1: carried it out for two consecutive three month periods, and like, sure, okay,
35:19
Speaker 1: the findings proved that among these thirteen people, the paleo
35:22
Speaker 1: diet was better for people with type two diabetes than
35:26
Speaker 1: a diabetic diet. And but that can you extrapolate that?
35:31
Speaker 1: And the problem is is like even on our beloved
35:34
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works website, the way that the media is
35:37
Speaker 1: set up, it's like here, here's something that proves my point.
35:41
Speaker 1: Here's something almost yeah, And it's just if you, if you,
35:46
Speaker 1: as a consumer or a thinking person, can just go
35:50
Speaker 1: a step further and just click that link. Like I
35:53
Speaker 1: almost guarantee you whatever study is being discussed the journalists
35:58
Speaker 1: is you know, link to it. Click the link and
36:02
Speaker 1: it'll take you to an abstract and you can read,
36:05
Speaker 1: you know yourself about this study and make your own decisions. Agreed.
36:09
Speaker 1: I think like that's my takeaway is to be your
36:12
Speaker 1: own health advocate. Read read the labels of the things
36:16
Speaker 1: you're eating and putting into your body, do the research,
36:19
Speaker 1: read studies, and decide what works for you, uh and
36:23
Speaker 1: try it out. It's not like the end allbl you
36:25
Speaker 1: don't have to stick to it for life. No, And
36:28
Speaker 1: I mean I think most of the most of the
36:31
Speaker 1: diets that are around these days are for a prescribed
36:35
Speaker 1: period of time, very difficult. There's like a boot camp
36:40
Speaker 1: like kind of version at the beginning, and then it
36:43
Speaker 1: becomes easier and easier and you reach like some sort
36:45
Speaker 1: of level of general maintenance. But I think from doing
36:49
Speaker 1: any diet like that for a couple of weeks even,
36:53
Speaker 1: one of the great things that you get from it
36:55
Speaker 1: is that you learn about your food, whether you want
36:59
Speaker 1: to or not. Because just by preparing your own food,
37:04
Speaker 1: planning your own your meals every day, rather than just
37:07
Speaker 1: like going down to the cafeteria or going to like
37:10
Speaker 1: a fast food place and just buying something like, you're
37:12
Speaker 1: forced to get to know the food you're eating, Like
37:16
Speaker 1: you know how many carbs are in salary, you know
37:19
Speaker 1: like how much fat is in like this um this,
37:22
Speaker 1: you know, five ounce steak, Like you just know these things,
37:26
Speaker 1: and that in and of itself is something that makes
37:29
Speaker 1: you better off just for having done it. Yeah. I
37:32
Speaker 1: think the ill health comes from from not planning and
37:36
Speaker 1: resorting to what's around you. Because what's around you and
37:38
Speaker 1: easy is usually not good for you. So you gotta
37:41
Speaker 1: put a little little effort into it. Um. I did
37:44
Speaker 1: find this, and I'm gonna I'm pooping it right off
37:46
Speaker 1: the bat. But US News and World Report did evaluated
37:51
Speaker 1: and ranked thirty two diets from a panel of experts. UH.
37:56
Speaker 1: To be top righted, a diet had to be relatively
37:58
Speaker 1: easy to follow, nutritious, safe, and effective for weight loss
38:01
Speaker 1: and against diabetes and heart disease. So according to the experts, UH,
38:06
Speaker 1: these are the top ten diets. And by the way,
38:09
Speaker 1: the Paleo diet was thirty two out of thirty two.
38:14
Speaker 1: They had it dead last. The DASH diet is number one, UH.
38:18
Speaker 1: And we're not going to get into what all these are.
38:20
Speaker 1: You can look it up if you're interested, but the
38:23
Speaker 1: DASH diet came in at one. The TLC diet is
38:25
Speaker 1: number two, and that is not the TLC network. It
38:28
Speaker 1: stands for something. The Mayo Clinic Diet, the Mediterranean Diet,
38:32
Speaker 1: and Weight Watchers all tied at number three, and then
38:35
Speaker 1: at number six something called the Flexitarian diet, which had
38:38
Speaker 1: never heard of. Also tied at six was Volume Metrics
38:43
Speaker 1: number it does, uh. Number eight was Jenny Craig. Number
38:47
Speaker 1: nine was the Biggest Loser diet apparently they have their
38:50
Speaker 1: own diet, and number ten was the Ornish diet O
38:55
Speaker 1: R n I s h and uh man that it's
38:58
Speaker 1: a big industry. If you want to write diet books,
39:01
Speaker 1: try and get people going on good health, write diet books,
39:04
Speaker 1: start making like convenience food that falls within the diet.
39:09
Speaker 1: That that's some money. But uh so what's our advice,
39:12
Speaker 1: be your own health advocate, try to avoid package foods
39:14
Speaker 1: and and uh put some time into it. That's right.
39:19
Speaker 1: How's that we should write a book? That's good stuff.
39:21
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about the Paleo diet,
39:23
Speaker 1: so you can um look them up online at Paleo
39:26
Speaker 1: diet dot com. Uh And yeah, just start looking around.
39:30
Speaker 1: If once you start poking into that kind of stuff
39:33
Speaker 1: like it, it's almost like a great entree into the
39:36
Speaker 1: world of like understanding your own nutrition. It's empowering. Yes, uh.
39:41
Speaker 1: And if you want to learn more about the paleo diet,
39:43
Speaker 1: you can type those words into the search part house
39:45
Speaker 1: to work dot com. And since I said bad, it's
39:46
Speaker 1: time for a listener mail. I'm gonna call this defending Skinner. Hey,
39:53
Speaker 1: guess my name is and I don't know how to
39:54
Speaker 1: pronounce it's h A I k E. Any idea hike hike?
40:00
Speaker 1: H what h A I K? Hey? Maybe I'm gonna
40:05
Speaker 1: go with Hake. Hi. Guys, my name is Hake and
40:09
Speaker 1: I'm an Austrian UH psychology student. UM. I just wanted
40:12
Speaker 1: to defend poor B. F. Skinner in case no one
40:15
Speaker 1: else did it yet. In the Anesia episode, you mentioned
40:18
Speaker 1: how Skinner's daughter should be honored because she was tortured
40:21
Speaker 1: in a box. Well, all Skinner ever put in the
40:24
Speaker 1: Skinner box where rats and pigeons. The thing he invented
40:27
Speaker 1: for his daughter was called the air crib. It is
40:30
Speaker 1: a crib that is higher than the average crib, so
40:32
Speaker 1: it's easier to stoop over. Uh. And in it there
40:35
Speaker 1: was a controlled climate for the infant. UH. Fresh clean
40:38
Speaker 1: air was coming in from the outside, and temperature as
40:41
Speaker 1: well as humidity could be controlled. It sounds like a box.
40:46
Speaker 1: To me, it was just a device designed to make
40:49
Speaker 1: the baby's life more comfortable, in the parents life a little, uh,
40:52
Speaker 1: a little easier. Deborah Skinner is fine and untraumatized, and
40:57
Speaker 1: she herself says that people should stop talking rubbish about
41:01
Speaker 1: her dad and her So maybe I can help help
41:06
Speaker 1: her out with this email she owes you she does.
41:10
Speaker 1: Keep up the good work. Guys. Um, my boyfriend is
41:13
Speaker 1: also a fan. Oh so he is a is a
41:15
Speaker 1: lady not necessarily, Oh yeah, that's true. Look at me.
41:19
Speaker 1: I'll find out I'm a caveman eating meat and nuts.
41:25
Speaker 1: That is very unlike me too. Good boyfriend's gotta be
41:29
Speaker 1: a girl, right. Oh and also, I wanted to point
41:33
Speaker 1: out an error I made and when I was talking
41:36
Speaker 1: about how I wanted to punch Jared with the toxic
41:39
Speaker 1: bread of subway. Oh yeah, you heard about it for that. Well,
41:42
Speaker 1: in my defense all the it turns out that it's
41:44
Speaker 1: not true. But all that stuff came out after we recorded,
41:48
Speaker 1: like that was had just hit the news the day
41:50
Speaker 1: we recorded, and then all the other stuff saying no,
41:52
Speaker 1: this is one lady who had a bund to pick
41:54
Speaker 1: and she was wrong. That came out afterwards so, uh,
41:57
Speaker 1: Subway does not do that, and I still want to
41:59
Speaker 1: punch Jared. Okay, I hope Jared doesn't listen to this.
42:04
Speaker 1: I feel so bad if he came up with me
42:06
Speaker 1: one day he was like, Man, I really I'm a
42:07
Speaker 1: big fan. Video con hug him. Uh. I will look
42:13
Speaker 1: forward to that. I'll get a video of that and
42:15
Speaker 1: post it. Uh if you want to get in touch
42:18
Speaker 1: with me and Chuck and point out how we were
42:20
Speaker 1: wrong or how we can better ourselves and that kind
42:22
Speaker 1: of thing. Oh and thank you. By the way, what
42:25
Speaker 1: did we end up on, Hike or Hake? I went
42:27
Speaker 1: with Hake. We'll go with Hack. Thanks hack Um. If
42:31
Speaker 1: you want to be like Hake and correct us, you
42:33
Speaker 1: can send us a tweet to s y s K podcast.
42:37
Speaker 1: You can join us on Facebook dot com, slash Stuff
42:39
Speaker 1: you Should Know. You can send us an email to
42:41
Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast at Discovery dot com, and as always, you
42:44
Speaker 1: can join us at our home on the web. Stuff
42:46
Speaker 1: you Should Know dot com for more on this and
42:53
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Does it, How stuff works dot com.
43:00
Speaker 1: M