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Gothic Horror with Emily Carpenter · WriterCon

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Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast, I.
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Speaker 2: Would say be patient with your process and the book
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Speaker 2: you're writing and with your career.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
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Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
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Speaker 1: hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
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Speaker 1: the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, author
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Speaker 1: of the want ln Files book series.
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Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse or Rich and hey they're writers. Thanks
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Speaker 3: for joining us today. Well, first of all, we have
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Speaker 3: some news because the Oklahoma Book Awards have come out
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Speaker 3: and my book Justice for All was nominated. But that's
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Speaker 3: not even the biggest news. The news is the did
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Speaker 3: I count right? Laura? I think you served as editor
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Speaker 3: on like half the books that are nominated. There's a
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Speaker 3: very appropriate thanks, Jesse. I mean there's mine, there's Marty's book.
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Speaker 3: Marty was on the podcast a few months ago. At
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Speaker 3: first I was afraid and Brody sin she's been on
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Speaker 3: the podcast to my Child.
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Speaker 4: Or My Child. I'm so proud of her. That's for
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Speaker 4: a debut novel to come out. And that's another another
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Speaker 4: finalist for Admission Press. And yes, I worked with her
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Speaker 4: very closely on that one, so.
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Speaker 3: And there are three other people nominated who are at
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Speaker 3: writer Con last year. So yeah, I'm going to take
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Speaker 3: credit for all the success.
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Speaker 4: So it doesn't hit quite as does it hit quite
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Speaker 4: the same as having one of my own books as
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Speaker 4: a finalist. But this, this is a this is pretty good.
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Speaker 4: I'm pretty happy about this.
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Speaker 3: And you can for people without having to worry about
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Speaker 3: your acceptance speech.
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Speaker 4: That's that's exactly that's exactly right. And I'm telling myself
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Speaker 4: that helping others is just as good as getting those
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Speaker 4: books out there myself, because you know, we all have
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Speaker 4: limited time and I can't edit everything and write everything
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Speaker 4: and do everything.
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Speaker 3: Jesse, you should be taking credit too, because you record
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Speaker 3: all the sessions at writer Cons and make them available.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: All, well for our price afterwards. So you know, maybe
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Speaker 3: that was the key. They listened to all your recordings
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Speaker 3: and you know now they're nominated for a big award. Yeah,
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Speaker 3: it's all thanks to me. That's what I'm taking. That's
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Speaker 3: the right attitude. Our interview today is with Emily Carpenter,
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Speaker 3: who is a former actor, producer, screenwriter, behind the scenes
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Speaker 3: soap opera assistant. She's also the author of best selling
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Speaker 3: novels Burying the Honeysuckle Girls and the Weight of Lies.
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Speaker 3: And she has a new novel coming out, really interesting
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Speaker 3: stuff and a great read. It's called Gothic Town. We'll
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Speaker 3: talk to her about all that and much more, but
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Speaker 3: first the news news story number one. It looks like
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Speaker 3: there's been there that we're hammering in another nail into
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Speaker 3: the coffin of mass market paperbacks. Just to explain what
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Speaker 3: everybody listening probably already understands. When I say mass market paperbacks,
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Speaker 3: I'm talking about the little things.
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Speaker 5: Do I have any here.
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Speaker 3: Jesse saying, don't turn away from the microphone.
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Speaker 1: Bill, Well, if you are going to turn away, don't
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Speaker 1: also brush the microphone while you're doing it.
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Speaker 3: Like this, I'm very fond of mass market paperback. My
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Speaker 3: first three books were mass market paperbacks. Of course, that
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Speaker 3: was back in the early nineties. Nowadays we go more
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Speaker 3: for trade paperbacks, which are a larger usually five and
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Speaker 3: a half by eight and a half size. Anyway, I remember,
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Speaker 3: you know, going to the grocery store or wherever and
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Speaker 3: buying a mass market paperback for a quarter, which seemed
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Speaker 3: like a big deal. The boy have I dated myself now? Anyway?
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Speaker 3: According to Sarkana, BookScan. Mass market paperbacks are now ready
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Speaker 3: for this three percent of overall print sales. That's not
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Speaker 3: even including ebooks, that's just a print sale. I bet
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Speaker 3: when I was started writing, it was sixty seventy percent
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Speaker 3: and now it's three. Mass Market paperback sales fell last
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Speaker 3: year to by over nineteen percent, and that's pretty dramatic.
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Speaker 3: Reader Link, which is a primary distributor to places like Walmart,
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Speaker 3: Walmart and Kroger, has said that they're just going to
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Speaker 3: stop carrying them at the end of this calendar year.
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Speaker 3: Of course, where have those former mass market paperback sales gone.
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Speaker 3: They've gone to digital books, ebooks, and more likely to
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Speaker 3: be acquired by subscription services like Kindel Unlimited than they
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Speaker 3: are at your local drug store. Laura, is this market
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Speaker 3: shift based on the preferences of readers or the desire
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Speaker 3: of corporations to make money or something else?
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Speaker 4: I just think it's more complicated than that. I think
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Speaker 4: our publishing industry has changed radically since those mass market paperbacks.
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Speaker 4: That used to be the way to deliver books cheaply
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Speaker 4: to as many readers as possible, and that's not the
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Speaker 4: model anymore. That's no longer the way to get books
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Speaker 4: as cheaply as possible into the hands of as many
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Speaker 4: readers as possible. So it's it's a bigger change than that.
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Speaker 4: So both of those things really. Of course, book publishers
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Speaker 4: want to make more money, but our reading preferences have
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Speaker 4: shifted as well, So I think all of that comes
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Speaker 4: together to explain what's going on there. I do miss them.
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Speaker 4: I always wanted to see one of my books as
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Speaker 4: a mass market paperback, but I think I think I'm
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Speaker 4: stuck with trade and that's okay.
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Speaker 3: I'm probably okay without it. I mean, I remember when
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Speaker 3: mass market some books would just be mass market paperbacks,
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Speaker 3: like all those Gold Medal crime novels of the fifty
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Speaker 3: or science fiction in the early days, because New York
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Speaker 3: thought it was just a handful of nerds reading Kurt Vonnegut,
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Speaker 3: for Pete's sake, his first books were published, even The
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Speaker 3: Sirens of Titan, which I think is one of the
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Speaker 3: best books I ever written, originally a paperback, mass market paperback.
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Speaker 4: Well, I grew up singing the Beatles song paperback writer,
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Speaker 4: and that's that's always what I had in mind when
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Speaker 4: I was singing that singing that I wanted to be
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Speaker 4: a paperback writer, that's exactly what I was envisioning.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, Jesse, what do you think about all this?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's just a natural extension of ebooks
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Speaker 1: being the fastest way to get a book out to
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Speaker 1: its audience. And honestly, as someone who like had difficulty
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Speaker 1: reading paperback the paper because they're so small, like the
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Speaker 1: Texas so small, now that I have a kindle and
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Speaker 1: can make the fun bigger, like, I always want to
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Speaker 1: read it in that way, but I still want to
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Speaker 1: make sure the author gets something for it. So if
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Speaker 1: ebook ebooks is a much easier way to get a
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Speaker 1: book out there than you know, a mass paperback, So
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Speaker 1: I think this is just a natural extension of let's
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Speaker 1: save those trees and use that paper for you.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, also a good point.
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Speaker 3: I think one of the biggest trends last year we
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Speaker 3: saw this huge growth in graphic novels we'll call them
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Speaker 3: for one of the you know, big comic books, basically
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Speaker 3: because American pilatures saw how well Japanese manga we're doing,
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Speaker 3: and so now DC has, for instance, it's compact comics,
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Speaker 3: uh switch is basically comic books, but in that saying hand,
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Speaker 3: you know, palm size format.
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Speaker 4: We saw a bunch of those in the bookstore in
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Speaker 4: New York City.
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Speaker 3: Yeah that was fun. Yeah we did all right. Onto
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Speaker 3: news story number two, which is either going to warm
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Speaker 3: your heart or make you if you're trying to sell
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Speaker 3: a book, make you infuriated with these stupid dogs. But anyway,
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Speaker 3: here's the headline, Senior Yorkie Dog and yes that's an
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Speaker 3: online identity. Senior Yorkie Dog scores a dream publishing deal
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Speaker 3: based upon his social media stardom. Yes this is an
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Speaker 3: actual Actually there's more than one dog. So you know,
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Speaker 3: some of us waited for years to get a book deal,
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Speaker 3: but these guys got it a lot more quickly because
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Speaker 3: they are major social media in should I say dogfluencers
8:57
Speaker 3: is that a word? Go with dog fluencers on TikTok.
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Speaker 3: And they're bringing out a new line of novels from
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Speaker 3: Kensington featuring and purporting to have been written by some
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Speaker 3: social media famous dogs like Senior Yorkie Dog and he's
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Speaker 3: a really cute Yorkshire Terrier. But there are others. There's
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Speaker 3: Tatum and Ducky who's also a Yorkie and these they're
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Speaker 3: called the Dog Agency Novels. It's a loose series of
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Speaker 3: books inspired by these canine social media stars in books
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Speaker 3: purportedly written by them. Although I don't know. I'm a
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Speaker 3: little suspicious. Maybe I'm just like that, But maybe it's
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Speaker 3: just me a dog called Yuki, no a dog called
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Speaker 3: Ducky who's a YORKI Did I say that right that day? Yeah,
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Speaker 3: it's a romance novel. It's a romance story. It could
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Speaker 3: have been put on the Hallmark channel. Laura, who's reading
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Speaker 3: these books?
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Speaker 4: I don't think I'm the intended audience, don't. I don't
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Speaker 4: really know.
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Speaker 3: And is it frustrating? Given how long you and I
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Speaker 3: both were, well, in my case, putting manuscripts in the mail,
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Speaker 3: trying to get my first book published, and now some
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Speaker 3: dogs doing it? How do you feel about so?
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Speaker 4: Okay? So is there frustration?
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Speaker 6: Yes, because a lot of it is based on just
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Speaker 6: social media and popularity, I suppose getting a lot of attention.
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Speaker 4: But let me go ahead, and let me go ahead
10:43
Speaker 4: pull the curtain back on the Lizard of Oz. Here uh,
10:48
Speaker 4: spoiler alert, there's going to be an actual human writing
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Speaker 4: that book. So somebody, somebody got very is getting very
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Speaker 4: fortunate from this.
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Speaker 3: There's actually a host of somebody's apparently, which includes some
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Speaker 3: well known genre writers like Micah Stone and Amanda K.
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Speaker 3: Morgan and others have ghosted books for the dogs, and
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Speaker 3: they're getting good reviews. I mean, basically, the formulas put
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Speaker 3: the dog in some heartwarming situation and dog lovers are
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Speaker 3: gonna sign up for it. I guess, Jesse, would you
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Speaker 3: read a book purportedly written by a dog?
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Speaker 4: No, we're just the audience.
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Speaker 1: We're not the audience for this. And this is one
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Speaker 1: of the things where like, sure have have the dog
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Speaker 1: write a book, the people who are gonna buy this
11:47
Speaker 1: book weren't gonna be the people who were gonna buy
11:49
Speaker 1: necessarily your book. So like taking away from exactly, also,
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Speaker 1: I just listen. I follow animals on social media. It's delightful,
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Speaker 1: but I don't. I don't want to pretend that they're
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Speaker 1: writing a book. I don't. At a certain point, I'm like, okay,
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Speaker 1: at least there.
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Speaker 3: I think I've told this story before. But I was
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Speaker 3: once at a conference with Fabio, you know, the Romance
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Speaker 3: cover novel, because at that time he was purportedly the
12:18
Speaker 3: author of a series of the books, which he didn't
12:21
Speaker 3: even I can tell you having seen it. He didn't
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Speaker 3: even pretend that he wrote the books or even knew
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Speaker 3: what they were about. He just an autographed the books.
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Speaker 3: He was really a great guy. But of course he
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Speaker 3: wasn't a dog, so.
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Speaker 1: He was a man.
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Speaker 3: Jesse, what if it's a dog in a Star Trek uniform,
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Speaker 3: do you buy the book then.
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Speaker 1: If he's writing about if he or she is writing
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Speaker 1: about his time in Starfleet in the future we have
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Speaker 1: universal translators where dogs can speak.
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Speaker 4: There we go. That is very specific.
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Speaker 3: But there was a yes, the memoirs of Spot, Yeah,
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Speaker 3: which is actually a cat, not a dog, but whatever.
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Speaker 1: I would happily read that too. Apparently he was quite
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Speaker 1: the actor. So Brettzmayer was not a fan of the
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Speaker 1: multiple cat actors they had. Oh yeah, apparently it was terrible.
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Speaker 1: Like every I think they had like three or four
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Speaker 1: different Spots and they were all just would not do
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Speaker 1: what they're supposed to do because they're cats.
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Speaker 4: Because they were super spicy, weren't they.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I would definitely read I definitely read the
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Speaker 1: biography of those Spot actors. That'd be hilarious.
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Speaker 3: How long do you think it'll be? But before James
13:32
Speaker 3: Patterson releases his series already.
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Speaker 1: It's probably already in the pipeline.
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Speaker 3: He'll be six next month. Yeah, yep.
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Speaker 1: James Parrison and Pet, you know.
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Speaker 3: What do you do?
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Speaker 4: You've written by the Pets.
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Speaker 1: By the pet who also has a ghost writing pet.
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Speaker 3: And on that note will segue to Craft's Corner. Today,
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Speaker 3: we have a few words from Betsy Koulikowski, who has
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Speaker 3: been on the podcast many times. She's speaking on impostors syndrome,
14:12
Speaker 3: which many people and I suspect many, if not most
14:15
Speaker 3: writers suffer from at one time or another, but not Betsy.
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Speaker 3: She's got seven books out now in her Veritas Codex series,
14:24
Speaker 3: Go Asy, and an eighth coming out later this year.
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Speaker 3: So take it away, Betsy Craft Corner, The Writer.
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Speaker 5: Con Family author Betsy Kolakowski here with today's Craft Corner
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Speaker 5: on imposter syndrome. Like many of you, I have struggled
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Speaker 5: with imposter syndrome for years, and I let the feelings
14:45
Speaker 5: of self doubt interfere with my ability to become the
14:48
Speaker 5: author I was always meant to be. So today we're
14:50
Speaker 5: going to talk about it. So, first of all, what
14:53
Speaker 5: is imposter syndrome. Well, it's the snaggy little voice that
14:56
Speaker 5: says you're not good enough, you don't belong where you are.
15:00
Speaker 5: You're only there because you've got lucky or you're a fraud.
15:04
Speaker 5: And the truth is that many writers have felt this
15:06
Speaker 5: at some point in their careers. And the key is
15:09
Speaker 5: you can't let it hold you back. Those feelings are
15:12
Speaker 5: a perception that are your unreliable narrator. Imposter syndrome is
15:17
Speaker 5: not a reflection of your abilities, but it's a psychological
15:21
Speaker 5: hurdle to overcome, and it happens when you are pushing
15:24
Speaker 5: yourself outside of your comfort zone. John Azarov said that
15:29
Speaker 5: your comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing grows there,
15:33
Speaker 5: so you got to get out of it. But how
15:35
Speaker 5: do you do that when imposter syndrome is standing in
15:37
Speaker 5: the way. Well, there's a couple of tips for you.
15:40
Speaker 5: First of all, don't compare yourself to others. You may
15:43
Speaker 5: see another author who is in the spotlight and they're
15:46
Speaker 5: having success, and you think, I want that, I want
15:48
Speaker 5: to be I want to be like them, and you
15:51
Speaker 5: really need to focus on just being yourself, work on
15:55
Speaker 5: your craft, hone your skills, and become the writer that
15:58
Speaker 5: you are meant to be the successful. The other thing
16:01
Speaker 5: is you have to separate your identity from the writing
16:04
Speaker 5: just because you have a good writing day doesn't make
16:06
Speaker 5: you a good writer. And you can have a bad
16:08
Speaker 5: review or get a rejection on a manuscript, and that
16:12
Speaker 5: doesn't mean that you're a bad writer. So you've got
16:14
Speaker 5: to put those two things aside and know that they're separate.
16:17
Speaker 5: Your success will happen when it's meant to happen. The
16:21
Speaker 5: other thing is, remember you're not alone. You know we
16:23
Speaker 5: talk it writer con about you found your tribe. Well,
16:26
Speaker 5: here we are. You're not alone. There are other writers
16:30
Speaker 5: out there and just like you, we're having our doubts
16:33
Speaker 5: and our struggles and all of our setbacks, but we're
16:37
Speaker 5: not alone. We're all in it together. So you know,
16:39
Speaker 5: find your tribe. The other thing is you want to
16:42
Speaker 5: visualize your success. And this is something that Olympic athletes
16:45
Speaker 5: do all the time. You might see them on the
16:47
Speaker 5: sidelines before they get ready to perform their routines, just
16:50
Speaker 5: visually going through what it looks like, letting their muscles
16:54
Speaker 5: tense and plex so that they know what it feels like.
16:56
Speaker 5: And they find their success through knowing the sas and
17:01
Speaker 5: our processes tend to change and fluctuate, but just knowing
17:05
Speaker 5: that you've got this and going through that routine and
17:07
Speaker 5: visualizing what success looks like for you is one of
17:10
Speaker 5: the best ways to overcome imposter syndrome. The thing to
17:14
Speaker 5: keep in mind is that it's not about perfection. You're
17:17
Speaker 5: not going to have a perfect first manuscript, maybe not
17:20
Speaker 5: even a second manuscript or a third manuscript or tenth manuscript.
17:24
Speaker 5: But that's what editors are for. So it's not about perfection.
17:27
Speaker 5: It's about progress. You're going to get better with every
17:30
Speaker 5: book that you write. I promise you it'll happen. Overcoming
17:34
Speaker 5: imposter syndrome won't happen overnight, and for some people it
17:37
Speaker 5: never happen. Some people struggle with it forever. But remember
17:41
Speaker 5: you're a writer because you write, and the world needs
17:44
Speaker 5: your unique gift. They need to hear your voice, they
17:46
Speaker 5: need your perspective. So keep going and trust the process.
17:51
Speaker 5: We all know that imposter syndrome is a sign that
17:53
Speaker 5: you're pushing yourself to grow and it's something to be
17:56
Speaker 5: proud of. And I always focus on what Bill says,
17:59
Speaker 5: you can not fail if you refuse to quit, So
18:02
Speaker 5: keep writing.
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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Betsy. Now let's talk to Emily Carpenter.
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Speaker 3: Emily Carpenter, Welcome to the podcast.
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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
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Speaker 3: I'm glad to have you. Okay, traditional first question, If
18:29
Speaker 3: you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would
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Speaker 3: it be.
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Speaker 2: I would say, be patient with your process and the
18:41
Speaker 2: book you're writing, and with your career.
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Speaker 4: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you've been through a few careers, as it happens,
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Speaker 3: before you got here, right because you started in show business,
18:54
Speaker 3: you were acting and directing, doing some writing. I think
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Speaker 3: talk about the little bit.
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Speaker 6: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I started off as a a kid and a teenager
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Speaker 2: and a college age person doing theater, and I really
19:09
Speaker 2: wanted to be an actress. I got married very young.
19:14
Speaker 2: My husband and I moved to New York and I
19:16
Speaker 2: got a job with the CBS soap operas Guiding Light
19:20
Speaker 2: as the World Turns. And I wasn't acting. I was
19:23
Speaker 2: on the other side. I was reading scripts. So that
19:26
Speaker 2: was always a part of storytelling what I loved. So
19:31
Speaker 2: it's definitely informed my writing. It just kind of was
19:35
Speaker 2: a different sort of job in the storytelling genre.
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Speaker 3: Very different. I would think, did you enjoy that work?
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Speaker 2: Oh? I loved it. I loved it. I grew up
19:50
Speaker 2: in a very strict household with strict around the rules
19:54
Speaker 2: of television. I was not allowed to watch soap operas.
19:57
Speaker 2: So the first thing I did when I got the
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Speaker 2: job picked up the phone and I was like, Mom,
20:03
Speaker 2: I'm working for two soap operas, and she just laughed
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Speaker 2: and yeah, but I loved it.
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Speaker 3: Maybe that was her secret strategy or something. Maybe maybe
20:17
Speaker 3: just steered your My dad wouldn't permit comic books, and
20:22
Speaker 3: now I have several thousands.
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Speaker 2: So seeing me, yeah, it could be reverse psychology.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, my undergraduate degree is in musical theater performance,
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Speaker 4: so we are we are kindred spirits.
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Speaker 2: I think, Oh, listen, I would have majored in theater
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Speaker 2: if I could sing. I can dance, not sing.
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Speaker 4: Nice, excellent.
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Speaker 3: So how did you segue from performing arts to the
20:51
Speaker 3: relatively quieter world of books.
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Speaker 2: Well, what I ended up after my stint in New York.
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Speaker 2: I really thought, you know, instead of acting, I'd really
21:02
Speaker 2: like to write. But what I thought I wanted to
21:04
Speaker 2: do was write movies. As it turns out, that's a
21:08
Speaker 2: really difficult business to break into, and so I sort
21:12
Speaker 2: of pivoted and I thought this might actually just it
21:17
Speaker 2: was just sort of an expedient decision.
21:19
Speaker 7: This might be an.
21:20
Speaker 2: Easier way to tell a story and to still be
21:23
Speaker 2: able to write. And yeah, it wasn't easy, but it
21:29
Speaker 2: was a little more accessible. Yeah.
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Speaker 4: So were you surprised then when your book was accepted
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Speaker 4: and then sold really well?
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Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, that's such an interesting question because in
21:45
Speaker 2: a way I.
21:45
Speaker 4: Were maybe just relieved.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was both. I think it is a tough
21:51
Speaker 2: business to get into, but by the time I went
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Speaker 2: through the whole thing of writing the book and getting
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Speaker 2: the agent and then going on submission, by that time
22:02
Speaker 2: I did feel like I kind of earned my strikes,
22:06
Speaker 2: you know. I was like, Yeah, I think I think
22:09
Speaker 2: I'm okay at this. I think I can write pretty well,
22:13
Speaker 2: and I think I've got a great book. So I
22:16
Speaker 2: was surprised and relieved.
22:18
Speaker 6: Yeah.
22:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, tell us about this new book which just
22:23
Speaker 3: has been released and has terrific reviews. This book hovering
22:28
Speaker 3: over my shoulder, Gothic town.
22:30
Speaker 2: Tell us about that, Yes, hovering like a you know, vulture.
22:36
Speaker 4: Looming.
22:38
Speaker 2: Yeah. I got the idea for this book back in
22:42
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. I was reading some articles about small cities
22:49
Speaker 2: in the US that were sort of putting feelers out
22:51
Speaker 2: for people to move to their towns. Like Topeka, Kansas,
22:55
Speaker 2: and I think there was a town in South Dakota
22:59
Speaker 2: really trying to kind of give their economies a boost,
23:03
Speaker 2: and I just thought, you know, that's interesting, and then
23:07
Speaker 2: I kind of had this idea rumbling in my brain.
23:11
Speaker 2: And then I read an article a few years later
23:15
Speaker 2: about a medieval village in Italy that was offering villas
23:20
Speaker 2: for one euro and I was like, well, obviously that
23:25
Speaker 2: town is full of vampires and they need new blood.
23:31
Speaker 2: Mine immediately went, you know, to dark plate says, and
23:36
Speaker 2: I just thought, you know, I don't know anything about Italy,
23:39
Speaker 2: but I can absolutely sort of turn this into a
23:43
Speaker 2: Southern Gothic story.
23:46
Speaker 4: Yeah.
23:46
Speaker 2: So that was kind of the origins of that.
23:49
Speaker 3: Well, congratulations, it sounds terrific.
23:52
Speaker 4: And you seem to like books that are poor or
23:57
Speaker 4: maybe horror adjacent, but blended elements of other genres as well.
24:03
Speaker 4: Do you think that's a fair assessment.
24:06
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think so.
24:07
Speaker 2: I've written five books before this, and they've all sort
24:10
Speaker 2: of they're all Southern, and they're all sort of suspense.
24:15
Speaker 2: Some lean a little more towards thriller, they have a
24:18
Speaker 2: little more action, but they're all sort of that slow
24:21
Speaker 2: burned suspense, and I think, you know a lot of
24:24
Speaker 2: them do have that horror element. This Gothic Town really
24:28
Speaker 2: was the first has been the first book where I
24:31
Speaker 2: had an editor say to me, let's lean into those
24:34
Speaker 2: horror elements. And I was like, I'm ready.
24:37
Speaker 7: Let's go. It's like Stephen King, miss thing, Yes.
24:44
Speaker 4: I love that.
24:45
Speaker 3: Terrific you just mentioned your editor. I know you have
24:49
Speaker 3: publicly praised your agent. I know this because I read
24:52
Speaker 3: it on your website today, so it must be true.
24:55
Speaker 3: And of course, for a lot of the people listening
24:58
Speaker 3: to this podcast, getting an agent is like the dream.
25:02
Speaker 3: Can you describe how you went about it?
25:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'm actually uh with my second agent. My
25:10
Speaker 2: first agent was uh with me for we were together
25:16
Speaker 2: for eight years. And then I actually got another agent,
25:21
Speaker 2: and each situation was very different. The first one was
25:24
Speaker 2: just cool, you know, querying with this first book, and
25:29
Speaker 2: it was just you know, being.
25:30
Speaker 7: Picked out of the slash pile.
25:33
Speaker 2: I actually had an appointment with her at a conference.
25:36
Speaker 7: And the second agent.
25:39
Speaker 2: That I got in twenty twenty one, she was you know,
25:43
Speaker 2: I had already written some books and so I had
25:46
Speaker 2: material at a track record. But still it you know,
25:52
Speaker 2: it's tough out there. It's a it's a very competitive business.
25:56
Speaker 2: And yeah, so I was surprised. I just thought I
26:00
Speaker 2: was going to snap my fingers and you know, find
26:02
Speaker 2: somebody holds in it.
26:05
Speaker 3: But you made it work in the end, which is
26:07
Speaker 3: all that matters.
26:08
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's talk about your writing process. How do you
26:14
Speaker 4: approach a new project. Do you like to outline or
26:18
Speaker 4: do you work for notes or are you just a pantherer?
26:21
Speaker 4: How do you come at it?
26:24
Speaker 7: I have a bit of a combination.
26:26
Speaker 2: I'm very careful to not start writing until I have
26:31
Speaker 2: thoroughly sort of cooked the idea in my brain and
26:35
Speaker 2: I feel like that it.
26:36
Speaker 7: Has enough.
26:39
Speaker 2: Almost visual interest to keep having to have some really
26:44
Speaker 2: cool stet pieces. And then also I do a very
26:48
Speaker 2: basic I actually use a screenplay, the sid Field screenplay
26:52
Speaker 2: outline that is the basic three X structure, and I
26:57
Speaker 2: do have all of that sort of charted out for myself,
27:01
Speaker 2: just to make sure it's a book and not just
27:03
Speaker 2: an idea. Yes, yeah, And then I have a like
27:08
Speaker 2: a little kind of superstitious thing about having the right
27:11
Speaker 2: character ideas, Like I'm not going to start writing till
27:14
Speaker 2: I know everybody's name, and I feel really like I
27:18
Speaker 2: know who they are and they have the right name.
27:21
Speaker 2: And then yeah, because once I sit down and write.
27:24
Speaker 7: I do.
27:25
Speaker 2: I followed the outline, but it's like it's like a
27:29
Speaker 2: high high wire act. You know, I'm going, I'm I'm
27:33
Speaker 2: doing two thousand words a day, seven days a week.
27:38
Speaker 7: It's a momentum thing. So I just want to.
27:41
Speaker 2: Make sure everything's in place before I step out on that.
27:44
Speaker 7: Yeah.
27:45
Speaker 4: That sounds like a planner to me. Yeah, definitely.
27:49
Speaker 7: Yeah.
27:49
Speaker 4: How about how about your daily writing life?
27:52
Speaker 2: What is it?
27:53
Speaker 4: What does a typical writing day look like for you?
27:58
Speaker 7: I like to write in the morning.
28:00
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm fresher, and especially the older I get,
28:04
Speaker 2: I'm like ready for bet at eight thirty six. Ye,
28:09
Speaker 2: so yeah, right, especially you know, if I'm drafting, I
28:13
Speaker 2: want to be at my desk at like no later
28:16
Speaker 2: than nine. And when i'm drafting a new book, two
28:20
Speaker 2: thousand words or more that's my goal. And if I'm
28:25
Speaker 2: on a roll, I keep going. But you know what,
28:27
Speaker 2: there's when I'm done. I'm done, and I don't write
28:31
Speaker 2: for a few weeks, and I can go as long
28:33
Speaker 2: as a month without writing. I'm always thinking of ideas,
28:38
Speaker 2: maybe jotting down you know, new pitches, and then editing,
28:44
Speaker 2: like I'm editing right now and I'm a little less
28:49
Speaker 2: disciplined about that, but still the morning come out into my.
28:54
Speaker 3: Literally admire which you said that every time I finish
28:57
Speaker 3: a book, I think, Okay, I'm just going to take
28:59
Speaker 3: a break break, a vacation time, and that lasts about
29:02
Speaker 3: three days, and then I start getting really antsy and
29:05
Speaker 3: start making notes, and pretty soon I'm on the next book.
29:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true.
29:11
Speaker 7: I do.
29:11
Speaker 2: I do feel like there's a bit of a for
29:13
Speaker 2: people who are born to write. I think if you're
29:16
Speaker 2: not writing, you have to be careful that.
29:20
Speaker 4: I think you get very restless. I think when it's
29:23
Speaker 4: when it's in your blood, you just get very restless.
29:26
Speaker 4: Any superstitions you mentioned, the superstition of needing all your
29:31
Speaker 4: character names, anything like that with your writing process. Do
29:35
Speaker 4: you need to have your cat nearby, or special coffee
29:41
Speaker 4: or tea? No, anything like that.
29:43
Speaker 2: No, I write in different loc No, not really. It
29:47
Speaker 2: really is more about the structure of hitting word goals,
29:52
Speaker 2: because I think I can just do the thing, get
29:56
Speaker 2: the words down. Eventually, I know I'm to finish, you know,
30:01
Speaker 2: eighty to ninety thousand words and I'm going to have
30:04
Speaker 2: a book. I'm going to have that you know, sandbox
30:07
Speaker 2: full of sand that eventually I can build a castle.
30:10
Speaker 7: So no, I don't.
30:12
Speaker 2: I don't have any really like special copies or candles
30:17
Speaker 2: or really.
30:18
Speaker 4: I get asked a lot if I listened to certain
30:21
Speaker 4: music when I write, and I think no, because then
30:24
Speaker 4: I would just start singing along with the songs and
30:26
Speaker 4: I would not.
30:27
Speaker 2: Be able to write anymore, right, that would Sometime I've
30:31
Speaker 2: had like soundtracks that I've written to that have helped
30:34
Speaker 2: me a ton, but then the next time, yeah, yeah, yeah,
30:38
Speaker 2: the next time I went back to them, I was like,
30:42
Speaker 2: it didn't work for the next book. It's all very
30:45
Speaker 2: sort of what you discover. I think each book has
30:49
Speaker 2: its own process.
30:50
Speaker 7: I should say that I do believe.
30:52
Speaker 4: Finitely Well, speaking of discovery, what are some things that
30:57
Speaker 4: you've learned in you're writing journey.
31:04
Speaker 2: I have learned to trust my process that sometimes I
31:11
Speaker 2: would like to skip from the beginning to the end.
31:14
Speaker 2: I would I would like to have to make the
31:18
Speaker 2: discoveries learn about the character quicker. But unfortunately, or fortunately,
31:26
Speaker 2: you know, the process is I do not know exactly
31:30
Speaker 2: who my characters are or what this story really is
31:33
Speaker 2: about until I'm done writing it, and I can't. There
31:39
Speaker 2: are no shortcuts. I just have to go through that
31:42
Speaker 2: first edit, that second, that painful second edit that you know,
31:46
Speaker 2: a little less painful third edit. I know some people
31:49
Speaker 2: are very careful writers, but I'm not that way. So
31:53
Speaker 2: it does take me a lot of edits to get
31:56
Speaker 2: to where I want to be. And then you know,
32:00
Speaker 2: sometimes then it's, you know, the tenth at it that
32:04
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, that's what this story is about.
32:07
Speaker 7: That's what I would trying to get.
32:09
Speaker 2: But I want a shortcut and there is no shortcut,
32:13
Speaker 2: and so I just every time I just say, just
32:16
Speaker 2: you know, calm down, trust the process. It's going to come.
32:21
Speaker 2: And the other thing is ideas. I think I have
32:24
Speaker 2: learned that for me, there's always going to be plenty
32:30
Speaker 2: of ideas, and so to just not be impatient with
32:37
Speaker 2: that and just let them simmer until it's time to
32:44
Speaker 2: go back to them.
32:45
Speaker 7: Yeah.
32:46
Speaker 3: Now there's been a break between your previous book, a
32:49
Speaker 3: break of years and this current one. Is that because
32:52
Speaker 3: you were waiting for the idea or did you revise
32:55
Speaker 3: it four hundred and twelve times or what happened?
32:59
Speaker 7: No, actually, it was.
33:02
Speaker 2: I actually got dropped by my first publisher, which is look,
33:06
Speaker 2: it happens to almost all writers at some point, and
33:11
Speaker 2: I think, like, the more honest we are about that
33:15
Speaker 2: this process, the business is not reliable in that way that.
33:24
Speaker 3: A business and we are not really business people.
33:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, and but that it happens, and so yeah,
33:32
Speaker 2: So I was dropped by my publisher, and during that
33:38
Speaker 2: process was actually when I ended up getting a new agent.
33:43
Speaker 2: But then I also had a book with my new
33:45
Speaker 2: agent that we sent out that just wasn't getting any traction,
33:50
Speaker 2: and really quickly I was like, all right, let's pull
33:54
Speaker 2: that back in. That is not going to be the
33:56
Speaker 2: book that that I want to come out of the
33:59
Speaker 2: gate with. And I was working on Gothic Town at
34:03
Speaker 2: the time, so I thought, you know, I've got this
34:05
Speaker 2: other book that I'm excited about.
34:07
Speaker 7: Let's see if that works. And it did, so, yeah,
34:10
Speaker 7: it was. That was a big reason.
34:13
Speaker 3: That's such a great title too. Maybe it's just I mean,
34:17
Speaker 3: I got my masters in Victorian literature, which is the
34:20
Speaker 3: same time period, but still I love Gothic novels. How'd
34:24
Speaker 3: you come up with that title?
34:28
Speaker 2: That's a great I don't remember exactly it just appear.
34:32
Speaker 7: In my.
34:36
Speaker 2: Question asked, I do like, what do you what is
34:41
Speaker 2: the the grammar term of words two words put together
34:45
Speaker 2: to make one. I do like those kind of words,
34:52
Speaker 2: and and so I I do remember I had a
34:56
Speaker 2: friend once say something about to me about the mayor
35:02
Speaker 2: of crazy Town, and you know.
35:04
Speaker 7: We laughed about that.
35:06
Speaker 2: So that might have been where I got it from.
35:10
Speaker 3: Well, are you working on something now? What can we
35:12
Speaker 3: look forward from you next?
35:15
Speaker 7: So six? I have another.
35:20
Speaker 3: Four years next year.
35:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the book I'm editing now. Yeah, yeah, it is.
35:28
Speaker 2: It's called A Spell for Saints and Centers and it's
35:32
Speaker 2: also kind of very Gothic key. It's about a psychic
35:36
Speaker 2: who works in Savannah and she has inherited her grandmother's
35:41
Speaker 2: psychic business like palm reading and or reading.
35:45
Speaker 7: She ends up.
35:49
Speaker 2: Doing a session with a bride to be who is
35:52
Speaker 2: the daughter of one of the wealthiest men and family
35:57
Speaker 2: in Savannah, and she does this really incredible reading, really
36:03
Speaker 2: hits the nail on the head, and she gets drawn
36:06
Speaker 2: into this family sort of decadent lifestyle and all their
36:09
Speaker 2: secrets and yeah, shenanigans in sue. Yeah, So that's coming
36:17
Speaker 2: out next March.
36:19
Speaker 3: Fantastic.
36:20
Speaker 4: Sounds so good. I'm going to go I'm going to
36:22
Speaker 4: go follow you on like Amazon and so I'll get
36:27
Speaker 4: noticed when those next when that next book comes out.
36:30
Speaker 3: You know, and then maybe we get you back on
36:32
Speaker 3: the podcast to talk about that one.
36:34
Speaker 7: Would love to. I'd love to.
36:36
Speaker 3: Emily, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
36:40
Speaker 7: Thank you all for having me. This has been a
36:42
Speaker 7: lot of fun.
36:57
Speaker 3: Just a couple of parting words. Let me say again,
37:00
Speaker 3: it is not too lying, too late to sign up
37:04
Speaker 3: for the writer Con Cruise, but we're kind of getting there.
37:08
Speaker 3: So take a look at the website writercon dot com
37:11
Speaker 3: and see if this is a good fit for you.
37:14
Speaker 3: We have worked double time to get good prices for
37:18
Speaker 3: you on this Alaskan cruise that leaves on May thirty
37:22
Speaker 3: first from Seattle. We're going to have a great time.
37:26
Speaker 3: We're going to do more than twenty hours of class
37:30
Speaker 3: and work, some of a big group, some of a
37:32
Speaker 3: small group, and all of it when the book is
37:36
Speaker 3: at sea. So we'll not interfere with your site. Seeing
37:42
Speaker 3: sign up soon so you get advantage of the deep
37:45
Speaker 3: discount that we negotiated. Okay, writer Con Cruise, I'll put
37:49
Speaker 3: a link in the show notes, and I mean, how
37:54
Speaker 3: can I not remind you that I've got a new
37:56
Speaker 3: book out, and that's Challengers of the Dust, which has
37:59
Speaker 3: just been least. It's a historical novels at nineteen thirty
38:03
Speaker 3: five dust Bowl, Oklahoma. My mother has been trying to
38:06
Speaker 3: get me to write a book set in the in
38:10
Speaker 3: the World War two era for roughly fifty years, so
38:14
Speaker 3: now I've come close. It's two man on. You know,
38:20
Speaker 3: Steinbeck sent his OKI's west, so I sent my east
38:25
Speaker 3: on this forced mission to find a local big wigs daughter.
38:31
Speaker 3: And they encounter all kinds of people, rail writers and
38:36
Speaker 3: hobo camps and rainmakers, and also a lot of people
38:40
Speaker 3: who either are already famous or soon will be. It's
38:44
Speaker 3: a lot of fun and I'd appreciate it if you
38:47
Speaker 3: check that out. It's Challengers and the Dust. All right,
38:52
Speaker 3: until next time, keep writing, and remember you cannot fail
38:58
Speaker 3: if you refuse to quit. See you next time.
39:02
Speaker 6: And
39:07
Speaker 2: Span and my fa