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REMASTERED: Body of Work, with Pamela Slim (Careers, Sales, Storytelling, Business) · The Action Catalyst

• 0:00
  Host: One of the nicest people in the world, Pamela Slim. And
• 0:06
  if you've been in the world of vlogs and social media for any
• 0:14
  amount of time, surely you know Pamela. She is an award winning
• 0:22
  author, coach, speaker, and has kind of an interesting story.
• 0:29
  And her book is called Body of Work, and it gives sort of a
• 0:36
  fresh perspective on the skills required in the new world of
• 0:44
  work, from both corporate to nonprofit to small business to
• 0:51
  salespeople to all the above. Pamela, thanks for being on the show.
• 0:59
  Pamela Slim: Well, thank you so much for having me. I am
• 1:01
  delighted to be here.
• 1:02
  Host: So you say that the quote, unquote world of work is no
• 1:08
  longer predictable.
• 1:09
  Pamela Slim: Absolutely. I know salespeople, of all people in
• 1:12
  the world know this, because often sales folks are the ones
• 1:16
  that are right there, you know, talking to customers and working
• 1:19
  on a deal for a long time and having it fall through at the
• 1:23
  last minute, because, you know, your key contact gets laid off
• 1:26
  or redeployed somewhere else. And I I've been for about the
• 1:30
  past 20 years working, working in the world of business, always
• 1:33
  on the human side. And as early as the 90s, I was noticing
• 1:37
  trends as we turned to see more waves of layoffs and
• 1:40
  reorganizations. But I think things really started to pick up
• 1:43
  steam, especially in 2008 when we all experienced a huge
• 1:47
  economic catastrophe, that that really rallied around the globe.
• 1:50
  And what was interesting to me, as somebody who has worked in
• 1:54
  and studied the world of work for so long, is it felt like
• 1:57
  there was something that kind of permanently etched reality in
• 2:01
  all of our minds, which said even huge institutions that we
• 2:04
  thought would never fail can fail, and that which we consider
• 2:08
  to be even a solid, respectable career is not really anything
• 2:11
  that we can count on. So there's a part of the message, I think,
• 2:15
  that is just acknowledging the reality. I've always been a very
• 2:18
  pragmatic optimist, where I'd like to look at the reality and
• 2:22
  say truly, as individual business owners, we can't count
• 2:25
  on the market staying the same, as we've seen through a number
• 2:29
  of different economic downturns. As corporate employees, we can't
• 2:32
  count on our organization to stay the same, or our customer
• 2:36
  base or positions, but when we know that, then we can do
• 2:39
  specific things to actually make ourselves indispensable and
• 2:43
  highly employable, whether we're redeployed within our own
• 2:46
  organizations when change does happen, or to also be a person
• 2:49
  if you do end up being laid off, that you're highly flexible and
• 2:53
  you can quickly get another job or have other kinds of business
• 2:57
  opportunities. And I always say it's by force or by choice. I've
• 3:00
  being a somebody who's been a coach for a long time. I work
• 3:04
  with a lot of people who are choosing to make a career
• 3:07
  transition or choosing to start a business, or to, you know,
• 3:10
  move up in an organization. But I think given the, you know, the
• 3:14
  the unstable nature of the economy and of organizations,
• 3:17
  more and more people will have that path, and so we really do
• 3:21
  need a new way of looking at our careers. That was really the
• 3:24
  driving force behind writing body of work is I found I've
• 3:28
  worked in just about every work mode you can imagine. I've been
• 3:31
  in the nonprofit sector. I've, you know, run a nonprofit as a
• 3:35
  volunteer. I worked in corporate I've been an entrepreneur, I've
• 3:39
  been a stay at home mom, and, you know, I find that really the
• 3:42
  way that we can actually, you know, create a strong sense of
• 3:46
  always being employable is by the narrative that we tell. And
• 3:49
  if we're looking at the general narrative, which is, have you
• 3:53
  been a stable person, which means that you've been in one
• 3:56
  organization for a long time now? Again, even if you want to
• 3:59
  do that, it's not necessarily possible, so you need to
• 4:02
  constantly be retelling the story about who you are and what
• 4:06
  your strengths are and what valuable things that you've
• 4:09
  contributed. The really good side to this equation is as one
• 4:13
  side of the new world of work is instability, the other side is
• 4:16
  an amazing opportunity that we have for doing all kinds of
• 4:20
  different work and on the personal branding side, we have
• 4:23
  so many tools now that allow us to tell our stories in
• 4:26
  compelling ways, through things like blogs or social media, our
• 4:30
  own websites, I think we have a lot more capacity to create a
• 4:33
  cohesive story about ourselves than we ever did in the past.
• 4:37
  Host: Salespeople are kind of classically known for switching
• 4:40
  companies. What is your opinion on that? Do you think it's
• 4:44
  negative to be switching all the time?
• 4:47
  Pamela Slim: Yeah, I think there's two things. The first
• 4:49
  is, for my definition of body of work, it's really as you look at
• 4:52
  the course of your life, what are all the things that you
• 4:56
  really want to create, contribute, affect and impact?
• 4:59
  That's the one decision that. Would make is really what is
• 5:02
  that body of work that you want to create based on things that
• 5:05
  are really important to you, using your skills and your
• 5:08
  strengths and so with that as a definition, I don't just mean
• 5:11
  concrete things, like helping to build organizations through
• 5:15
  sales, which is a hugely important skill set, which
• 5:17
  salespeople have, but it's also in what are the intangible ways
• 5:21
  in which you affect the world? How are you as a parent, as a
• 5:24
  community member, as a spouse, you know, what are you really
• 5:27
  contributing? What's your emotional wake that you leave as
• 5:31
  you really walk through the world? And is it something that
• 5:34
  you feel proud of and that you really leave as a legacy? So
• 5:37
  when you think about it from that perspective, to move around
• 5:40
  or not move around to me, it's really addressed by why. And
• 5:44
  sometimes you can, you can be pursuing what seems to be the
• 5:47
  next great opportunity. I really was fortunate. I spent about
• 5:50
  three years with a client who had a sales training business.
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  I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of salespeople who I
• 5:57
  think happened to me some of the most like interesting, flexible,
• 6:00
  positive people. You know, I really like it. I love the skill
• 6:04
  set. I love the fact that the skill set is really flexible,
• 6:07
  and that you do have to get enthusiastic and care about what
• 6:10
  you're doing, really infuse yourself in in a culture, in a
• 6:13
  company, in order to be able to really sell effectively. And so
• 6:17
  it is the kind of skill set of any I think that are out there
• 6:20
  that can be, you know, really effective to be moving in
• 6:23
  different places. But my question would be, are you just
• 6:26
  jumping to what seems to be the next great, great opportunity
• 6:29
  because of maybe a financial outcome, or are you conscious
• 6:33
  about what it is that you want to create? So for example, you
• 6:36
  might be somebody who works in tech who gets really excited
• 6:39
  about helping early stage entrepreneurs create a solid
• 6:42
  foundation for their business and to get sales moving in the
• 6:45
  early stage. So in that case, maybe you're just working for an
• 6:49
  organization to get them up to that stage, develop the capacity
• 6:52
  of the internal folks to sell more effectively and hire other
• 6:56
  people, and then you're ready to go on to the next challenge, and
• 6:59
  especially if you would tie that particular technology to one
• 7:02
  that you're passionate about, right? The same thing could be
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  true where you might be selling a service that you're really
• 7:09
  passionate about, some kind of health related service or
• 7:12
  artistic pursuit. I think that's the beautiful thing. Is, with a
• 7:16
  sales, you know, a selling skill set, then you can really learn
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  how to sell in many different industries to many different
• 7:22
  people, but from an individual career perspective, I would say,
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  are you giving yourself enough time in each role to really be
• 7:29
  building that which you want to build? And there's always, you
• 7:32
  always have the capacity, I think, to tell a compelling
• 7:35
  story. But the reality is, you know in terms of how you might
• 7:39
  sell yourself to somebody, or you might explain your history
• 7:42
  and how it is that you've moved through many different
• 7:45
  positions. I think the important thing to remember is that your
• 7:48
  work really does speak for you. So if you truly have had
• 7:51
  integrity in your roles, you've done a great job, you've
• 7:54
  developed really powerful relationships, and you move on.
• 7:58
  That's the kind of enduring legacy that your work really
• 8:01
  speaks for and that can't be spun. That's what other people
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  are going to be talking about. You know, when, when they talk
• 8:07
  about you, and it's in today's job environment, I think that is
• 8:11
  how people get jobs. Is based on your reputation of what you've
• 8:14
  actually built and done.
• 8:15
  Host: Is it fair to say that, you know, like body of work is
• 8:18
  it's kind it's almost like personal branding?
• 8:21
  Pamela Slim: That is exactly right. I mean, the first piece
• 8:23
  is, what actually are you creating, right? What? How are
• 8:26
  you being conscious about that work that you actually want to
• 8:29
  do in the world? What organizations do you want to
• 8:32
  support? You know? What? What problems do you want to solve?
• 8:35
  And then you do that through your skills and strengths. But
• 8:38
  yes, the way that you help people understand who you are
• 8:41
  and what you do is, by the story you tell. It is the meta skill
• 8:44
  of the 21st century, which, by the way, has always been the
• 8:47
  meta skill, right? Storytelling is the way that that we all, we
• 8:50
  all relate to each other, and we have since the very, you know,
• 8:54
  early days. And the good thing is, that's actually what good
• 8:57
  salespeople understand, right? But I think there's two parts to
• 9:00
  the story. There's, what is the story you're telling yourself?
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  Are you saying, oh my gosh, you know, my work history sounds
• 9:06
  really sketchy. I'm desperate. I need to get a job, oh my gosh,
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  in which case it's hard then to create a compelling, authentic
• 9:13
  story to somebody else, right? Versus where you say, I, you
• 9:16
  know, I may not have had a perfect past. Everybody has
• 9:19
  challenges, you know, in your life and your work, but this is
• 9:22
  the meaning that I've really gotten from it, and these are
• 9:25
  the kinds of projects that I've really thought about that I want
• 9:28
  to contribute to. And here's why my specific skills fit. And so
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  yes, that is personal branding. I think the thing I want to
• 9:34
  underline is it's really based on deep integrity with yourself
• 9:38
  and with the work that you want to do, and then that just has
• 9:41
  natural positive impacts in terms of the opportunities that
• 9:44
  open up for you. And I think people buy for different
• 9:47
  reasons. We're wired a little bit differently. Some folks,
• 9:50
  very much make decisions based on personal relationships and
• 9:53
  how they feel if they trust somebody. A lot of other folks.
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  Folks will make a decision that is based on all kinds of
• 9:59
  research and data or, you know, individual and institutional
• 10:02
  decisions, but I think a huge overriding factor is the kind of
• 10:05
  relationship and trust that you build and in organizations. I've
• 10:08
  seen this so much when I used to consult in organizations,
• 10:11
  they're going through as much change in tumultuousness as the
• 10:15
  outside market. And it's amazing what can happen if you have a
• 10:18
  new manager come in, or a VP, or a change in business strategy,
• 10:21
  you have to sell yourself all over again, you know, sometimes,
• 10:24
  sometimes the same people, when everybody's looking like, wait a
• 10:28
  minute, you know, our whole go to market strategy changed. And
• 10:31
  therefore, you know, does Pam really have what it takes? Can I
• 10:34
  know she's been really successful in this market, but
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  you know, how can she really compete in this other kind of
• 10:40
  market? Does she have the skills to do it if you've been
• 10:43
  conscious about it, not just the story you're telling, but also
• 10:46
  relationships that you're building, ways that you're
• 10:49
  weaving in other kinds of activities? You know, I think a
• 10:52
  lot of folks forget that every single part of your life is
• 10:55
  really part of part of your body of work, so sometimes
• 10:57
  significant activities that you do outside, people may not be
• 11:01
  aware of the fact that you're a huge volunteer, you know, you're
• 11:04
  a member of your community, or you're an amazing parent, and
• 11:07
  you, you know, have a child with special needs, and you put in,
• 11:10
  like, lots of extra effort and energy. All those kinds of
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  things are really an important part of the story that you can
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  tell, and it's really about solidifying confidence and
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  really helping to go through a transition in a positive way. I
• 11:22
  was working on a consulting project, and I was laughing with
• 11:25
  my client. We had new folks come in that were hired, and even
• 11:29
  though, kind of, the senior person in the project was one
• 11:32
  who I had great trust with, he really wanted to defer to folks
• 11:35
  who were coming in on the project to make sure that, you
• 11:38
  know, they related to me. And we were laughing, because he's
• 11:41
  like, Oh, I saw how you started to work, you know, how you
• 11:44
  started you were sending emails and, you know, having
• 11:47
  conversations with them, and introducing yourself in a way so
• 11:50
  that they really knew who you were. And he was laughing
• 11:53
  because he knows me, and he knows that that's just part of
• 11:56
  what you have to do is you're going through a transition. You
• 11:59
  can't rely on your past performance, you can't rely on
• 12:01
  relationships that you've had, because all of those can change,
• 12:05
  and especially if business strategy changes.
• 12:08
  Host: In the book, you have this great line you say, the quality
• 12:11
  of your life in business is directly related to the quality
• 12:15
  of your stories.
• 12:16
  Pamela Slim: Yeah, I really believe it passionately, because
• 12:18
  being so tuned into, you know, to the workplace, and especially
• 12:22
  folks that might be out of work or looking for new
• 12:24
  opportunities, it's easy sometimes to look at somebody
• 12:27
  who gets an opportunity and say, oh, man, you know, that wasn't
• 12:31
  fair. You know, that person's lucky, or they had this
• 12:33
  background, or come from this place, and therefore they got
• 12:36
  the job. And what I always know, because I've just watched it for
• 12:40
  so long and coach so many people around it is somebody who
• 12:43
  actually got the opportunity, took the time to really research
• 12:46
  and understand what were the needs of that person, who they
• 12:49
  were wanting to make a sale to right kind of, again, an
• 12:52
  internal sale for an opportunity. And it's funny,
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  it's talk about, you know, when you talk about branding, can be
• 12:58
  a touching point when you talk about selling, you know, if you
• 13:01
  start to talk about things like parenting or, you know, getting
• 13:05
  a spouse, you know, some of the underlying skills of using the
• 13:08
  good light side of the Force skills that we have right are
• 13:11
  about deeply understanding and connecting with somebody feeling
• 13:14
  good enough about yourself. When you meet that person who you're
• 13:18
  just think is wonderful, who would be a great life partner.
• 13:21
  You don't really knock yourself, you know, out of the running by
• 13:24
  saying, oh my gosh, but you know, I'm not that good a
• 13:27
  person, and why would they ever date me? And I'm not good
• 13:30
  enough. I'm not smart enough. You know, people don't like me.
• 13:33
  That's that internal story sometimes that becomes a driving
• 13:36
  narrative for our life, and it ends up really leaking out into
• 13:40
  also how it is that we tell a story about ourselves moving
• 13:43
  forward. And so I just want to clarify again, by story, I don't
• 13:46
  mean making up things to just bamboozle everybody. It's
• 13:49
  actually telling a clear, compelling story that you deeply
• 13:52
  believe about yourself, but that's based on your reflection
• 13:55
  about that work in the world that you want to do, and based
• 13:58
  on also about being the kind of person that you want to be in
• 14:01
  the world. You know, what kind of parent do you want to be?
• 14:04
  What are the stories that you tell your kids? What are the
• 14:07
  stories that you tell your kids about what work is? I'm always
• 14:11
  fascinated by people who spend all their time when they get
• 14:14
  home saying how terrible it is, and the office was horrible and
• 14:17
  the commute was bad. And I'm thinking, man, what kind of a
• 14:20
  story are your kids going to have about what working means?
• 14:23
  How excited are they going to be to be joining the world of work?
• 14:27
  If that's what you hear, I was blessed that I had a dad who's
• 14:30
  still at 79 years old as a passionate photographer. Every
• 14:33
  time I heard him talk about work, it was with excitement for
• 14:36
  his craft, and I'm so thankful to him for telling that kind of
• 14:39
  story about work, because it showed me that you can love what
• 14:42
  you do, and so I've always pursued work that really lit me up.
• 14:46
  Host: Yeah, I mean, that's those are, those are powerful
• 14:48
  questions to think of as powerful. How do we become
• 14:51
  better storytellers?
• 14:52
  Pamela Slim: I think one it, one thing it could do is, is to read
• 14:55
  and whatever genre of books that you enjoy, if it's fiction or
• 14:59
  even non. Fiction, pay attention to what people are actually
• 15:02
  doing as they're narrating, creating a great story. The
• 15:06
  ultimate resource for storytelling, I think, is Nancy
• 15:09
  Duarte book Resonate, fantastic book as a resource for really
• 15:14
  understanding. How can you tell a compelling story when you're
• 15:16
  trying to get somebody to change, which is what you do in
• 15:18
  a selling in a sales environment, right? And Nancy
• 15:21
  studied all kinds of the great speeches of all time, and really
• 15:25
  noted through extensive research about a certain pattern and a
• 15:28
  structure to a story that can be very effective and persuasive.
• 15:32
  So I think there's things like that where you can, you know,
• 15:35
  get resources like that, I find the arts are one that also
• 15:38
  really contribute to you getting excited about a great story. So
• 15:41
  if you can go to a great play, or, you know, see a really
• 15:44
  wonderful movie, you start to pay attention to, you know, how
• 15:48
  did that grab me? And why was that exciting? Or, Why did I get
• 15:51
  scared at that moment, you know, and, and those, I think, can be
• 15:54
  things that are that are really useful, again, from a sales
• 15:58
  perspective, I think that is a skill that so many folks need to
• 16:01
  have. And really one of the fundamental underlying skills, I
• 16:05
  think, of great storytelling, is where you really do think about
• 16:07
  who your audience is, and really make sure that you spend a lot
• 16:11
  of time understanding what is the nature of your organization
• 16:15
  that you're selling into. What are the personal things that are
• 16:17
  really driving folks who you're having conversations with, so
• 16:20
  that when you choose what it is that you want to talk to them
• 16:23
  about, or present to them, or give certain examples, but it's
• 16:26
  very related to what their actual experience is, and I
• 16:29
  think that's something that can only strengthen what it is you
• 16:32
  do on the sales side.
• 16:33
  Host: I love it. Well, Pamela, thank you so much. This has just
• 16:37
  been awesome. And thank you for being on the show.
• 16:40
  Pamela Slim: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.