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Leading with Soul: Why Business Fiction is the New Masterclass · The Bridges and Beacons Podcast

• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Bridges and Beacons podcast.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Kelly Meyerson, and I'm geeking out a little bit, which, you know, if you listen to this podcast, I geek out all the time.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I am an original book nerd from childhood.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: So my guest today, Karen Ann Bullock, is here.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: She is a phenomenal author.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to read her bio to you because, ladies, pull up a chair, lean in.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Let's hear all about Karen.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Karen is a best-selling author, speaker, and founder of Daring to Transcend, the first woman promoted to executive vice president at AM Best Company.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: She uses her experience to inform the drama in the Ascending Ladder series of novels, Discovering Power, Pursuing Truth, and Embracing Trust.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Karen, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me, Kelly.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: I know we're going to have a fabulous conversation, and I can't wait to dive in with you.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: I we were just setting up our conversation before we came online.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Karen, I'm holding back because I want to say so many things.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't just have people come on and talk about their books.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: I have to read their books.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: I have, I, it is like a moral imperative for me.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've been obsessed with reading since I could hold a book in my hands and probably before then obsessed with my parents reading me books.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: My mom was an early childhood teacher in the beginning of her career.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: So she exposed me to literature from the earliest of early, the Mother Goose book and everything.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So as soon as I could hold a book myself, I always had one in my hands.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: To me, too, me too.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then we're gonna have double the fun.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I think what really excited me about meeting you and learning about your particular niche in fiction was that it's it's based on your experience as a woman in the corporate environment, as a woman leader, someone who is trailblazing.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And your character development and the stories that you are building is so good.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I could not stop reading the first book, Discovering Power.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: I found your, you know, um your character, Cheryl, to be someone that I could find myself relating to in terms of experience as a woman, as a experience as a woman at work in trying to pave the way for herself in the field that she's in is very similarly, you know, very male dominated.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I love the way that you've written her because she's not perfect, she's not flawless and wakes up like with her hair perfect.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: She's she's like, she wakes up and she's like, Am I really doing this again today?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, am I showing up in the office?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: She closes her door and has moments of like personal crisis and stress.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: She fumbles with her relationships with her coworkers, with her husband, with other people in her life.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love and applaud that you wrote her so real and not like some some like starlet, you know, who just like everything happens easily for her.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for that.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: For for all of the women who exist imperfectly, thank you for writing a woman who is phenomenal, amazing, and also imperfect.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I thank you for for that.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly I'm very honored by everything that you just said, and and particularly that.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because when I started writing, I actually started writing a a nonfiction book about women's leadership.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I was completely bored with it.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and to your point, it felt like, okay, that had to be tell everybody how to be perfect, right?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it we're not perfect.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: None of us are perfect.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I love diving into fiction because you can tell show people really having struggles.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some of the struggles Cheryl's had are struggles that I had.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them are struggles that my girlfriends in in business had, or, or even my husband, I will, I will admit, some of it I even stole from him.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: So these these experiences honestly aren't only women that, you know, men experience some of this stuff too.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of her experiences and a lot of what she goes through are things that either I experience or other people I know experienced in different ways.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to show those experiences because I think that's one of the big problems that women have in business today is that we feel like we have to be perfect and we have to have the perfect makeup and the perfect hair and we have to look the right way.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and I've even talked to women who like go to networking events and say, you know, I don't really connect with people because I'm still putting on my facade, right?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because we feel like we have to do that.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and do you have to do that to a degree?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: We all do.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, you can't show all your messiness all over the place all the time.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: But we do need to understand that we aren't perfect all the time.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's okay not to be perfect all the time.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: What's really important is to learn from it.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what Cheryl does along the journey, is she's learning, you know, as well as some of the other characters too.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, the important part is learning, not being perfect all the time.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a a beautiful cast of characters, too.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I was really in awe of the amount of depth that we get from the characters that are part of her office experience, the like, you know, top leadership suite, the, you know, the people that she's at level with or the people that report to her and the development of those characters is so good.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I just always find that piece of fiction writing so incredible, that creation of the world and the characters, and so that you really feel who they are from the level of description that happens.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I really I'm in awe because I when it comes to that kind of stuff, I feel like I just do not have the stamina of like give me nonfiction writing any day because it's like very fact-based, like you, you know, you just tell it as it is.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: But this, like, it's such a an amazing set of people that you've included and allowed us to experience some of their journeys, you know, through some work crisis, through observing Cheryl's take on how to move forward when there are some big changes happening in an organization.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm being a little bit aloof with the descriptions because I don't want to give away the plot to somebody who is looking forward to reading these books.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, she has this very strong moral compass.
• 8:50
  unknown: Yeah.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And as someone who exists with a pretty strong moral compass, like I was like, yeah, girl, yes.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I really appreciated how she she sticks her neck out quite a few times, and in some moments to to the detriment of her, you know, mental health, because you know, it it's kind of like make it or break it moment, which you know, have you experienced that kind of need to question yourself and say, like, where do I go with the flow and and and blend into the culture that exists?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And where do I say like I need to make a left turn here?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it it can't continue this way.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, has that been something for you without going into detail?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: But really that's like it has and it has in different ways for me.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, again, one of the beautiful things about writing fiction is, you know, it's not just my experiences, it's also been like my best friends.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I know, you know, what they what like for instance, I had a really close friend who is in IT in another industry than I was, and you know, she went through some of this stuff.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it I think one of the biggest issues that we we all face along the way, regardless of whether it's work or personal, but I think it comes out more at work, is is where you've got the conflict between your inner values and the values that are being lived in the organization.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And they're they're not always gonna sync up, right?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're not.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: But part so part of it is navigating, okay, where is, you know, I'm not gonna follow my sword for this particular thing.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, Cheryl goes through some of that.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this isn't important enough to follow my sword for, I can just go with the flow.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: But this other thing is I I can't live with myself if I if I go forward with this.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I can't say I personally had a ton of those, but I certainly did have them along the way.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think anybody can work in the corporate environment and not and not have them.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Other friends of mine I know had bigger issues with it.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard and it creates a lot of angst.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what one of the things that Cheryl gets to show is the angst that she goes through when she's you know facing some of these situations.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's angst that we all go through.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the reasons I wanted to show that is to let people know that they're not alone, right?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: We all go through this, but we don't all talk about it.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't get talked about a lot.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so again, fiction is a great way to show what the characters are really going through in the privacy of their own minds and how they're trying, how they wrestle with that in a way that I hope is not only informative, but also inspirational for other women to say, okay, it it's okay for me to wrestle with this stuff.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's okay for me to, you know, maybe sometimes decide, okay, I'm just gonna let this go for now.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe sometimes you have to say, all right, I I have to put my foot down here.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: But what I love about again, what's what we could do with Charlotte and what you can do with fiction is some of the things that she does to resolve some of that inner conflict are very creative, right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: They're not necessarily things that I did or what have even thought to do when I was in corporate.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: But when I step back, can step back and look at it, but it's like, okay, what if what if she tries this or what if she tries that?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And am I saying to someone, this is what you have to do in this situation?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm saying, here's somebody, here's a way to think outside the box.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: You can think outside the box in your own way, but here's, you know, how this character decided to do it.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's didn't, I don't think they're unrealistic things that she does, but I think creative, which is I wish I had been that creative about some of that stuff when I was actually in corporate.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm sure.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she definitely is going a different route with many of the ways that she she manages some change that's occurring in her organization, you know, some of which she has knowledge of and some she doesn't.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's like a bit of a backstory that she's just kind of discovering through the course of the book.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was very, very relatable.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I loved the way that she stood up for people and fought for people.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt like that was a very strong leadership quality that she had.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: If we were going to dissect her her leadership skills, you know, one of them is definitely that she has a very strong compassion and empathy for her people, high expectations, absolutely, but she is right there with them.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So as somebody who has studied leadership and like has like that nerdy kind of vibe about like what is happening here, like that was fun for me to be like, oh, I see, I see what we're looking at right here.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: That this is this is about leading people through change.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is about how you create win-wins and you you bring people through when they you create that psychological safety and you know, lean on innovation when things have to change and give people resources and support and get you know side by side with people versus just talking at them from across the table.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm sure that required a lot of intentionality too to build that in.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's such a cool piece of work.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: But honestly, that was really the the motivation behind where I started with that.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because we were under so much pressure to you know make the profit and get the bottom line.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is really important.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: And Cheryl recognizes that that's really important.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because obviously, you're not going to be in business if you're if you're not paying attention to those things.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, how do you do it in a way that is more humane and and recognizing bringing our humanity in into the workplace?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that was sort of the theme that I started with before I even started writing that book.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how do we bring more humanity?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: How do we bring more human spirit into the workplace?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that message is even more important now with the the advent of AI and all the stuff that's going on with that.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: So and and, you know, not to give too much away, but you know, embracing trust, which is the book that just came out, which you haven't, I know you haven't had a chance to yet.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, that you know, that we we do touch on AI and and and and what's going on with that in in that book.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, but that message of humanity in the workplace, I think, is one of the overarching themes of the Ascending Ladders series.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and the reason it's called Ascending Ladders is because it's it's talking about you know, climbing the ladder in the workplace.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: But the ascending piece of it is also sort of the transcending piece of it.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: The the how do you climb the ladder but also ascend as a as a human being.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's sort of the the thinking behind where I even started with with this whole book series.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking too, as you were saying that, you also show us how she's evolving and figuring out uh okay, I'm I'm moving up and moving forward in my career.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: How am I still taking care of myself?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you show us her deliberations, like, all right, I could like sit down and have a couple of glasses of wine, or I could go to bed early.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: And like I feel like that is such a relatable thing.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, all right, I'm I know I'm gonna pay if I make the wrong choice.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: I know how I want to show up tomorrow.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe it's a cup of tea and I'm going to bed, you know, and I'm getting some extra sleep.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so I loved that that part of her journey was there.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I loved that we got to see her trying to, like you, you said, like blend like humanity with her work and what does that actually look like?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And she has this really cool best friend who we we don't get to see in person because they live in different places.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: So most of their interactions are happening on the phone or texting, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, but I envision her to be this like woman who wears like draped clothing and has like big jewelry and like her hair twisted upon her.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I just had this beautiful vision of her as this like very ethereal but grounded lady who's like like no nonsense, but she's like really new age as well.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I enjoyed her.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that that's I love that description of hers.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: That that pretty much nails it.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we ever like hear very much about her.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we get a little bit of her like background and and how the two of them have really bonded, but we don't we don't get to really see her in her day-to-day life and and get to know her.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: But that's kind of how I felt, at least from how Cheryl responds to the things that she's offered her.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: She sends her articles or like practices or things she can do.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I envision her, she's got like a meditation cushion like set up all the time.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not like an in-and-out thing.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like it just lives there in her space.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was super fun.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you can kind of see how Cheryl's, you know, home office environment is slowly like taking on some of these influences from her best friends.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that part too, because you know, as somebody who sort of, you know, the reason I ever started doing a podcast was because I'm I'm a science girl, you know, book nerd, who's also very interested in learning about spirituality and like serving humanity and all these things.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that intersection and that like it's not either or it can be both and.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, that that was really important to me, especially towards the end of my career.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there were certainly things that, you know, there there's certainly a lot of me in Cheryl.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I I would be completely lying if I denied that.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, to me, I sometimes feel like Cheryl is the me I'd like to be, the leader I'd like to be.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, towards the end of my career, you know, I found some of those practices that Cheryl used to be helpful.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I used to close my door and do a meditation for, you know, or a visualization for, you know, five minutes before I went to a big meeting.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, I used to do some, you know, so some of the things, some of the things in that whole context are things that I started incorporating in in my leadership towards the end of my corporate career and found to be really, really helpful.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we we like to say spirituality doesn't belong in the workplace.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and it has, you know, it has to because we're not human without it.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Does that mean we we need to be, you know, overtly religious and converting people?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely not.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a way, there are ways to do it.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I love, and that was one of the things I loved weaving into discovering power and you know, throughout this the series in some ways, is you know, how do you bring your spirituality into your work, if not into your workplace in in appropriate ways?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, listen, she she definitely does that.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there are moments where it serves her, and there are moments where she's like, oh no, this is greatly pushing it a little bit far here.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how is this going to come back to haunt me?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love that she was like, Well, I'm doing it.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting because I think this is this is one of those leadership lessons.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you can't always control the the response that other people are gonna have.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: You really you can't control.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: You never can control the response.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: You never can control people's responses.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't you don't know for sure.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: How it's gonna go.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: But she she goes way unconventional with the with the way that she handles supporting her whole team of over 100 people in managing the transition that's happening.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And she she gets an idea from her best friend.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, I'm gonna do it.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And she gets her her like core team on board and they're like, I don't know about this.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then they're like, Yeah, we're we're in, we're with you.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And she could have really committed like career suicide, and like that would have like, but she was like, I am I'm doing this, like that conviction really impressed me.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I was wondering if you have known any leaders in your own experience who have like taken that kind of a giant step and willingness to to put themselves out there not even for something like that.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not to the degree that Cheryl did.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I certainly have known leaders that have taken unconventional approaches to things and put themselves out there in ways that might be questioned in some organizations.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: So in you know, my my old Boston did a few very unconventional things that we all we we honestly all loved, but I know he was always very hesitant about letting anybody outside of his team know what was going on because he wasn't sure how like the rest of the company was gonna take it.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so yeah, I I guess I have known people that have done stuff not quite as not quite as out there as you know the thing that you're talking about that Cheryl did.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sorry, people, but you're gonna have to read it.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're just gonna have to read it as she did.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I do know some people that have done some unconventional things in in in team building and and in you know caring for people.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a favorite character from the series?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Besides Cheryl?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, Cheryl's a favorite character.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think in the in the first book, I think my my second favorite character is Keisha.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love Keisha.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And she does show up throughout the rest of the series as well.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then there's there's there's a couple characters like there's a character in particular that get it gets introduced in pursuing truth that I really love.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: A friend, a friend of her husband's, his name is Robert, and Robert is I love you know, again, he's he's sort of a minor character, but he he plays a great role in it.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: So fine.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I love him.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there are, you know, for me, what's I I like, you know, obviously I love, love, love Cheryl.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, she's she's she's you know, my heart.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: But there's some other fun characters that have shown up, like Keisha, like Robert, like Cindy, her friend, that is giving her advice and and a few others.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's been w what's really been fun about writing the books in in general is you know, I'm not a plan everything out in advance.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes these characters, sometimes these characters just show up and start talking, and I'm like, oh, okay, well, that's really interesting.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Where did you come from and what's your story?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm busy, you know, because I generally hear the dialogue first.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: That, you know, I generally start start my books with the dialogue, and then I build, you know, the rest of the stuff around it.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes like I'll hear a dialogue, like I'll hear the dialogue with with Cheryl and Keisha in in this first one.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, okay, this is interesting.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: So now what's Keisha's back, what's Keisha's backstory, where she's coming from.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I love the spunky fun characters, and like I love in the first book Keisha and how she shows up and she plays a big role in the second in the second book.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: So oh, I love that.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: She's I love that.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I loved her.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she she was really fun.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: So who was your favorite character in the book?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I I definitely I really liked Keisha.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: I liked the the influence of Cindy.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed Cheryl because I just related to her so much.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she's 50, I'm turning 50 this year.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, I'm like, oh yeah, I totally get what she's talking about.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I've I joke sometimes with my my friends at work.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, so there's like three sins you can you can do as like a midlife woman in in the evening.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: You go to bed too late, you eat food that you wouldn't normally eat, or you have a drink or two.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: You can do one of the three of those.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you can do two, but you cannot ever do three and not pay for at least a week.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, it's like this little triangle, and you're like, and like most of the time you have to be like, and no, and no, and no.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate it when she was like, uh no, no, it is not that.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: It is go to bed early and get myself, it's it's let's get a workout in, let's, you know, she's making better choices, but I love that she's not like here I go, getting on my yoga mat.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, I guess I'm getting down on the floor then, you know.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I I appreciated that about her because it's it's so relatable, right?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think I think I loved that about her, and I loved her moral compass, and I loved like the moments where she was like, I should not say this, I'm saying it before I can hold myself back.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yeah, sometimes that happens.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you just she's not not thinking before she speaks, she's really feeling where she's at.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then as she comes back to it later, she's not like beating herself up, she's more like, oops, you know, and she's like, but this is what I really believe, and and I'm gonna continue to do it, you know.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: And even when people like call her to task, she's like, Yeah, and I would do it again, you know, and she's like, I would do it again.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you can take and do with that what you would like.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I I really applauded that for her.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't personally have that kind of a role like she does, and or those moments in my work life to do that, but I can appreciate her feeling that way.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think for all those reasons, I was really feeling it to her and like how like it's not easy to balance like full-time work and something that you're passionate about, and to also like be available for yourself and for the other people in your life.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say, like, sometimes her life seems a little lonely because she's just so driven and she's 50 and and presumably she's been spending the last, you know, almost 30 years pursuing these career opportunities.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: And for whatever reason, she has, you know, she doesn't have kids.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, whether that we don't really know in the first book whether that was choice or not.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Don't tell me.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I won't because that that that is a topic in the second book.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: So so I really I feel like that the experience of a woman in the workplace, whether you have kids or not, like the the lion's share of labor, and and I think the emotional labor that she she has both at home and at work, and she's carrying things that her other coworkers at her level and and those above her are not.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and I I love that you picked up on the loneliness thing because I think that's a real a real issue for women in in the workplace in general, but particularly women in leadership.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's a a lot of women that I have talked to are lonely.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's hard if you're trying to balance your family and your work.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Where is the room, you know, and maybe taking care of yourself physically, right?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, doing the workouts and stuff like that, where is there room for the the support, the supportive relationships that we really need?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the one thing that, you know, Cheryl does have is she has her friend Cindy, right?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: But even that's like a long distance, not physically close relationship.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think women do get lonely.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, if you keep reading further, that comes out a little bit more.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: That that topic actually gets explored a little bit more in embracing trust.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um because we do tend to get isolated, and that's really not healthy.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's really not healthy.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I learned, you know, I learned that I actually I learned that more actually after I left than than before I left.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I learned for myself how much I really needed to have that face-to-face interaction with people and have a community and have people supporting me.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we all need that more than I think we let ourselves think that.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I was gonna say, do you do you think that some of that is that real like hyperindependence from from women feeling like if I show any sign of needing support, any sign of weakness, like you know, it's like I running with the lions and they're gonna notice I'm an antelope.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're gonna eat me.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that's a big part of it.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because we feel like we we can't show any weakness in particular in the workplace, because the guys aren't allowed to show any weakness.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore we're not allowed to show any weakness either.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the guys carry that burden too, of not showing, you know, sure, not being able to show any weakness.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think it is the independence, it is putting up the walls, you know, that that I've gotta, I've gotta keep my myself together.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: I can't show any weakness.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have to look like I'm in charge of everything that, you know, I've got it all together, you know.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, having an emotional moment where you cry, heaven forbid, in the workplace is, you know, just terrible.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I remember there was one time in my career when I cried in front of my boss in the workplace, and I was so horrified that I had done it.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: So horrified.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: And for years I beat myself up about that.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: And now I look back, I'm like, well, you had every reason to cry because what was of what was happening, and like, so what?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: You cried.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously it didn't kill my career, but it was just it was a moment of huge embarrassment for me for a long time.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and finally I went, Well, wait a minute.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Why why are you a why are you still beating yourself up about this?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: And B, so what?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: It it's it's not the end of the world.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: There was a reason for it.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in bringing that humanity into the workplace, like you said, like if you want people to be invested and care about what they're doing, then they have to have feelings, yeah, and be able to experience their feelings.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, obviously we don't want people like out of control, not able to do their work.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's different.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: And also there are moments where people go through things.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've I the place that I work in, it's a it's a nonprofit school, and and I've been there for 19 years, a long time.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the women that I work with in you know, the PTOT department, like these are women that we've been through like everything together.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Those of us that have been together for a long time, through health crises, divorce, childbirth, the stress of like work becoming a working mom when you know you've been just a worker, you know, health issues, you know, parents sick, parents passing, like literally everything.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: We've all been through everything together.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we have this very strong community of support.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and this way of like, like, you can come to work and you can fall apart.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Back in like our, you know, our area.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, when you do, somebody's gonna be like, get her some tissues, get a cup of coffee, cover her first two kids.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm gonna see your kids for therapy for their first two sessions.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, here, you come sit back here, get comfy.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, somebody's gonna be your emotional support person, and the work goes on, which is like we build each other up and then we get back to the work.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and I would say the school that I work in, because it's a private school, it's nonprofit, like the funding is different.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: We are students that come to us, we receive tuition from there, sending public school districts.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot riding on the integrity of our work and the consistency and you know, doing the best for these kids.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, like we are going above and beyond as like our regular, like that's the regular bar is above and beyond.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's got it like a whole building full of type A people.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: The non-type A people don't stay because they just they're like, This is bananas, and we're like, what, what?
• 38:45
  unknown: We're fine.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Put on another pot of coffee.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: We got this.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I think one of the ways that we are able to sustain that high intensity is because there's like matched high support.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, which is what I was just which is what I was just gonna say.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you you can you can you can maintain that intensity because you've got the support system that you don't have to maintain it all the time, right?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and and people will cover for you and you have each other's backs.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a whole that's a whole different environment in which your intensity doesn't lead to burnout.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: The intensity is gonna lead to burnout when you don't have the support, you don't have the place to release the emotions, to process the thing, the stress.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Then then that's where burnout comes in.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: But if you've got this community where people are gonna support you emotionally and still be that intense, you're you're gonna be able to maintain the intensity without burning out, which is fantastic.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also, even with all of that, it's also still hard sometimes, even though you know, to like say the words like I need help.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, of course it is.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's always hard to say that regardless.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's the hardest words to say.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, it's not I love you.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's I need help.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Three hardest words to say, I need help.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I I think it's just this inborn, ingrained, conditioned, you know, we watched our mother's shoulder a lot, you know.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I was lucky enough, I grew up in the the 80s and 90s, and you know, my mom was home until my brother went to kindergarten, and he's seven years younger than me.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: So like I had my mom home for for the majority of my childhood, but that is not a typical situation now for a lot of people.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And balancing, you know, working mom life, having a career.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then for me, like I'm I'm not a like a one and done kind of girl.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I'm multimodal.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta be doing, I'm writing books, I'm coaching people on sleep, I'm running a podcast, I'm reading people's books.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like there is there are so many layers to the things that I want to do.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: But at a certain point, you have to be like, all right, what is what is where is the too much level?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it it isn't even the amount of things, it's not being willing to like look at your plate and go, all right, this can absolutely be delegated or deleted.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where even still I struggle with that to be like, all right, and some and then and then and then there's and then where's the quiet time?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like where where's the time where you're unplugged and you're allowing your creativity and your and your your recharge to occur?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you're keep if you've got constant stimulus, you don't have room for the creativity.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like I always love to say, you know, that the the for the prologue of of discovering power was something that sort of came into my mind when I was taking a walk.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm taking a walk, it was a nice day, I'm looking nature, I'm boping along the music, and all of a sudden I start, you know, thinking about this woman in the the boardroom and you know what was happening, you know, and and and so that's but it was it was quiet time, you know, it was time where my brain was shut off of other things, and that's when you know you tend to be the most creative, but yet we don't recognize that or allow for that.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Even in the workplace, we don't allow for that creative time, you know, the time where you're unplugged and you're not inputting or working on a problem, but you're you're you're you're stepping away.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how many good ideas do you get when you're in the shower?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe you should say that because I have in my pocket that I've been carrying all day.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: My little I are you familiar with aquinotes, Karen?
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, you don't.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: I have aquinotes in my shower.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is the story I'll tell you.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, back in like 2019, I sort of reconnected some of it with to some of my creativity.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was exploring a lot of things, meeting really cool people.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's when I met the woman who's the publisher of the books that I've been in, Laura DeFranco.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I was having this problem where I would get in the shower and just get these downloads of poetry.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'd be like, you know, leaning out of the shower with my phone, like frantically like trying to type it in before it would go out of my head.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: I so much so that I have written poetry about getting poetry downloads in the shower and how like some of them actually end up down the drain because you can't, like, I can't hold it all.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're competing for my attention, right?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I got these things called aquanotes.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know how I found out about them.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't I don't remember, but I they go in your shower and you have a pencil and you can write on them while they're wet.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just actually last week I was like, it's been too long.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: I need more more of these.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I got my aquanotes again.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: And immediately my brain is like, oh yes, we can mind jump in the shower for sure.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Here we go.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's let's run through the litany of things.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I mind jump in the shower and and occasionally.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the reasons that that happens when you're in the shower is because you're focused on the sensation of the water, the washing your hair, the things that are routine.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: You're not, you're generally, I mean, sometimes we think, but a lot of times you you really turn your rational brain off when you're in the shower.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a it's a common place where people do it.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and many people you talk to will say, hey, I get great ideas while I'm in the shower.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's because you've turned your your the rational brain off and you're allowing the creativity to flow.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: But think about if you actually did that more than just when you were in the shower.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I have.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I I yes.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's so so so true.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's there's part of me that has this inner drive.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you follow human design, I'm a manifesting generator.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: So like I have this inner drive to do to work.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love to work.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: I and if I'm lit up by what I'm doing, like there's just no stopping.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Me.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: But every it was so funny.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody asked me like sometime in the fall, like just in conversation, like, what do you like to do for fun?
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, what's that?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, what do what do I like to do for fun?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I mean, I like I like to go hiking.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I like to walk in nature, but I'm like, that's kind of like, I mean, it is fun, but it's exercise.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, well, shoot, I'm I'm really drawing a blank on like like there was not something on the tip of my tongue like, oh, let me tell you what I love to do.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, well, I could talk about like I love podcasting, you know, but like it is a it is enjoyable work.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: I do, I like a lot of enjoyable work, but like for fun.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: I do I like baking, I like reading.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, reading counts as fun.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Reading is fun.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: Particularly if you're reading fiction.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, and I do love fiction.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: I love fiction, but yeah, so I was like, she stumped me a little and I was like, that's a sign, Kel.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: So what I actually did this winter is I really honored that like inner drive to hibernate and winter, and not to like like jump into January with a whole bunch of projects and things.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I have really good ideas, and I'm actually like like almost like spring, I'm like pulling back, pulling back.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like holding it and waiting because usually my thing is like go, go, go, do, do, do.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm holding and waiting as a practice for myself, not in the like over saying no, over saying yes to other people, but like over saying yes to me and being like, right now, no, it's a no.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're waiting, you're sitting, you're resting, you're sleeping, you're having more of that down time.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: Good for you.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that is my that is my exercise in like you can actually wait and not do things.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: And people are like, you have something coming out.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, or you know, you've been talking about this thing.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, have you reached?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, I haven't.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: Haven't released the website, I haven't released my offer.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I know what I want to do.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've got it all laid out for myself, but I have not done it yet.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And not in a procrastination sense, in an intentional wait.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're waiting, you're holding, you're building more space between things, you're pausing, you know, and breathing.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a very interesting experience when the rest of the world feels like it's flying by.
• 48:51
  unknown: Yeah.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: We get that, you know, the FOMO, the fear of missing out, right?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not jumping on everything.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes the waiting, sometimes the the beauty is in the waiting.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes by waiting and pausing before you uh, you know, jump into it, uh you actually have a chance to refine it before you jump into it.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and you have a chance to see things more clearly and say, well, you know, uh I was jumping this way, and maybe I just need to pivot 10 degrees, and it would be, you know, that much better.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and it does give you reflection and and space to to enjoy the anticipation, right?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about my friend Lori Smith, and we did a Untamed Leader retreat back in January, and it was like a very like anti like New Year, New You Hustle kind of vibe.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we recorded a podcast the night before it started.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: It just happened to be like that.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: Was we had planned the podcast.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about it feeling like that feeling of Christmas Eve for people who celebrate Christmas.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you don't know everything that's gonna be there.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's like magic in the air, something's gonna happen.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: And like the anticipation and excitement is almost like more exciting than the actual what happens, what you get, what you unwrap underneath the tree.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that's what that's making me think of because you know, it's like building that anticipation.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm finding like it's I haven't really talked a lot about what I'm going to be doing, but the people who have heard little tidbits are like, wait, wait, tell me more.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: I want more.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so interesting because I'm not really like, you know, let me tell you what I'm gonna do.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's very subtle and very quiet.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I've only talked with a few people, but like I can feel people getting interested and like, you know, kind of leaning in a little bit more.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what is she building to?
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: What's happening here?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're telling us a little bit here and there, but what's really happening?
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's kind of fun to play that way.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: Good for you.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, is this series going to stop at three books, or can we anticipate more?
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is what I really need to know as a fan of the series.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a really good question because it it was supposed to stop.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it was supposed to stop at three.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm getting the feeling recently that we're not done with what Cheryl's not done.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: I love to do that.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: And some of the other characters aren't done.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: So well, so they're still talking to you, is what you're saying.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's dialogue happening.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's dialogue happening.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's there's ideas happening.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I haven't not officially started working on a book four, but I think it's there's a good possibility that there's going to be a book four.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I love that.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very much looking forward to reading the next two in the series, especially this one that has just arrived.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, can you tell us a little bit about book three?
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give us a sense of I don't know what what we can expect, some themes without giving any major plots away?
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: So the third book is called Embracing Trust.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it it really is all about trust.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: We I explore in it themes of you know, someone who has blown up her own life by breaking people's trust.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what the hell is she gonna do now?
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: But like when when she's she's made a complete mess of herself of her life.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: How do how what do I do now?
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've broken everybody's trust.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's one of the the three main characters in it.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: Cheryl, of course, and and you know this from the first book, you know, has and that gets expanded, but you know, the the trust in a marital relationship is is constantly under pressure in in different ways.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I knew I knew there's some conflict in discovering power between Cheryl and and her husband, you know, a lot because of what she's doing at work that he may or may not agree with.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: So part of the tr the embracing trust for Cheryl is is is with her husband, you know, and trying to trying to sort out that through a bunch of different things without giving away all of the themes in in book two also.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh she also has workplace trust, and there's always, you know, there's also there's always you know moving pieces, uh changing in her environment environment.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, she's up near the top of the ladder, and you know, who does she trust at work?
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Especially since you know, some of the people at work in pursuing truth, you know, the reason she has to pursue so much truth in the second book is because there's people at work that are doing things that they really shouldn't be doing.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there's that to explore.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's a new character that that appears in in embracing trust, and she's changing jobs on trying to figure out how to navigate, you know, going from an environment that she knows and trusts people to a new environment and who does she trust there and how does she navigate that.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's looking at trust from a variety of different angles and in a variety of different different situations is is really you know the big the big themes of the book.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: And but to your point, some of the things about you know loneliness in in leadership, you know, get gets addressed in or you know, gets touched on in the book.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's certainly one of the themes for all of the women in the book.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and then, you know, the way they like I said, you know, Cheryl also is wrestling with AI, you know, being being an IT leader, you know, that that is certainly playing a role in in how she has to deal look at her job differently now.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's certainly another big theme in the book, at least from Cheryl's standpoint.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: That is really cool.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: So the book is out.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: We can we can get it on Amazon.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna put the the link in the show notes.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: Gonna encourage everybody to go just get all three.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: You I mean, because you're gonna you're not gonna want to start with the third book.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna want to bring yourself through the whole journey with Cheryl.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: That is the ideal way to do it.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: Although you can read the books independently, but it's it's it's more fun to do it from the beginning.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean that's that's sort of my I would never out of order.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't have it in my makeup.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's not that's that's uh that's a absolutely not for me.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's gotta be like it's so funny because my son has inherited my enjoyment of books and he loves the Percy Jackson series.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so Rick Rarden, the the author, was speaking not too far from us.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we went with his best friend, dressed up, went to see him speak, which was just phenomenal.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody got his latest, the latest book in the series at that event.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's still sitting on my shelf because I'm at a quandary.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like I want to read the book, but I haven't read the preceding books, which is a lot.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my son has.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: He's he's read everything, but we're talking about, I don't know, a dozen or so books.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, am I am I going?
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: I this might be like a like a springtime into summer project, but I want to read the book, but I I don't want to read it.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: You refuse to read it.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: I can't.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot do it.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, all right, we have the first, you know, first chunk of books.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's where I'm gonna have to start and and plod my way through it.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: So so even for books like I, you know, I'm not I'm not super invested in Percy Jackson yet.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I haven't read we've watched the series on Disney, which was phenomenal.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, my son says it's pretty good to the book, but anyway, I feel like that's just I I want to go one by one.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, to your point, you know, you you get spoilers so that if you you know you read it out of order, then if you go back and read the other ones, then you already you know know some of what's gonna happen.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's always a downside.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I love to find those subtle like hints and clues in what's happening to be like, I knew it.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: That like is very that's a very enjoyable thing for me in reading books, like figure it out.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: So when I when I get shocked in a book, I I'm like really shocked.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's very hard to like have like twists and turns.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: Usually it's only in like those like mystery kind of books where like that's like their genre that they write in that you're like oh I can't believe it.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: But even they're even they're supposed to give you enough clues that you could figure it out.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: That you could, yeah.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean there's some like I remember like Colleen Hoover's Verity, which is just I don't know if you've ever read that book, it's pretty intense.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is it's it's like one of her more out there books, but like you get to the end and you're like, no, oh my gosh, you had no, you you did not see it coming at all, huh?
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: Did not see it, no, no.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: I've had a few like that where I was like, Oh, some good ones.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: But that like to me is like super fun.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: Then I'm like, all right, I need another book like that.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: But so I'm happy that you're telling us that there's a potential for a fourth after we've enjoyed these three.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: And what else do you have going on?
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: How else can people connect with you, follow you?
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would love to join the conversation anytime.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: My main social media is LinkedIn, so you can find me on LinkedIn, or you can go to my website.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: I put out a newsletter a couple months, a couple times a month that just explores all kinds of different topics related to sometimes related to themes in the books and sometimes related to other things of leadership and personal growth, which I think are completely in, you know, to be a good leader, you've got to be invested in personal growth too, in my personal opinion.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I write about those things and I would love for you to engage with that as well.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have, you know, if you think about Cheryl and Cindy, do you have an unconventional piece of advice for women who are working their way through leadership or just wanting to be a better leader?
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it really it would really go back to what we touched on during part of the conversation is you know, don't neglect your spiritual life, whatever that looks like for you, uh, along that journey.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's very easy to because the corporate world is always telling us that you know our rational minds are everything, which you know, AI in and itself is upending, but we could have a whole other conversation about that.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think especially now, you know, it doesn't, you know, I'm not talking specifically about religion, although that that can be, it can be religion if that's how you express your spirituality, but don't lose that along the way.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's I think that's just such an important part of being human and being the best human we can be.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that you know, that's where my brand daring to transcend comes from.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's really staying connected with your higher self, however, you do that.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: That is great advice.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I thank you so much, Karen, for being here.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: Congratulations on the third book in the series, embracing trust.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to get my hands on my copies.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now I feel like I need to just go buy all the books so I can hold them in my hands.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh, I gotta bring like this.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is like we always share books at work.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, ah, I'm bringing in like a new series to share with people and like just get excited about it.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm also excited about the tackling of the topic of AI.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm also really excited.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe we'll have you come back at a at a later date when everybody listening has already read the books and we can have a conversation about AI and leadership in the workplace and how that is sort of shaping the future.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: That would be really fun.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to do that sometime.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me, Kelly.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: I love this conversation.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we, you and I could sit here and talk all night, but everybody else would get bored.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: But that's okay.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was really fun.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I it would be fun to have another conversation about AI after you've read the book and see how Cheryl approaches it.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you everybody for being here till the end of the podcast.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to go down to the show notes and get yourself a copy of Embracing Trust.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, if you're like Karen and I and you need to go linearly through the series, you're gonna want to get all three while you're over there on Amazon.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: And may I remind you that when someone writes a book, when you purchase said book, please go back and rate their book, write a little five-star review, tell people what you loved about the book.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: That is like precious gold for writers.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: So please, please, please don't forget to do that part.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so true.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is gold.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much, everyone.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening all the way to the end, and we'll see you next time on the podcast.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: Bye for now.