Latest / Cookbook Love Podcast / Episode 384: Being a Cookbook Writer: Abstaining with the Saints with Michael Foley

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Episode 384: Being a Cookbook Writer: Abstaining with the Saints with Michael Foley · Cookbook Love Podcast

0:02
You're listening to the Cookbook Love podcast with Maggie
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Green, episode number 3 84.
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Welcome to the Cookbook Love Podcast.
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A podcast that celebrates cookbook readers, buyers,
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collectors, writers and clubs.
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And now your.
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Cookbook author, culinary Dietician, and Cookbook writing Coach Maggie Green.
0:31
Hi everybody.
0:32
Welcome back to another episode of the Cookbook Love podcast.
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How's everybody doing today?
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As always, hope you're doing well, enjoying your January.
0:41
We are enjoying, or I should say, I'm enjoying a nice, uh, quiet Friday,
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doing some follow up here in my office.
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Getting ready to, uh, wrap up the day and head up to my kitchen to make some
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pizza dough for a pizza tonight so that we can watch, uh, I think the semi-final
0:58
for the college football playoff.
1:01
And Oregon is playing Indiana.
1:04
So by the time you hear this, that game will have been decided.
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But, uh, the Oregon Offensive Coordinator, just as a little side
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note, is coming to be the head coach at the college football team I follow,
1:15
which is the University of Kentucky.
1:17
So we're excited about that.
1:20
Of course, we have mixed feelings about whether we want Oregon to win or not, but
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I think it would be great if they won, uh, the college football, uh, championship.
1:30
Of course, Indiana's had a great team.
1:32
They've had a very, um, inspiring young quarterback lead them to this game.
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So it's been a lot of fun to watch and see some different teams in the championship.
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So today I have an interview with Michael Foley.
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Michael is a professor of Patristics in the great Text
1:51
program at Baylor University.
1:53
He's a Catholic theologian, a mixologist, and the author or editor of over a dozen
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books and articles on topics ranging from sacred liturgy, Saint Augustine of
2:04
Hippo and Contemporary Film and Culture.
2:07
His most recent book, abstaining with the Saints.
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No.
2:11
And low alcoholic Beverages for Sober Souls is a companion book to
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two other books that he has written.
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One called Dining with the Saints, and another called Drinking with the Saints.
2:24
So during our interview today, we talk all about low and no alcohol beverages.
2:29
We talk about trends that are taking place here in 2026
2:33
related to the sober movement.
2:36
We talk about opportunities during our year to, uh, drink
2:40
no or low alcohol drinks.
2:43
And we talk all about how the feast days of the Saints and the
2:47
liturgical seasons affected the saints that he chose for this book.
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So without further delay, let's dive into this interview with Michael Foley.
2:57
Hi Mike.
2:58
Welcome to the Cookbook Love podcast.
3:00
Thank you for having me on.
3:02
Yes, very excited to have you here.
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I'm always so excited to talk to authors who have written multiple
3:08
books for a variety of reasons.
3:10
But before we dive into all of that, let's tell everybody, uh, a little
3:14
bit about who you are and what you do.
3:17
Sure.
3:17
I am a professor, uh, I teach at Baylor University in Waco, Texas.
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I'm in the Great Texts program, which is sort of the greatest hits of Western siv.
3:30
And, um, and I write, uh, cocktail books and cookbooks on the side, but I think.
3:39
That might, does that come as a surprise to your coworkers that you're not
3:42
writing other great text, or do we, what do you think cookbooks have the
3:47
potential to, um, enter into that space?
3:50
Well, there's an added irony of my writing cocktail books because, uh, Baylor is
3:55
the world's oldest and largest Baptist university, and so it's a dry campus.
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So, uh, it is kind of odd that, uh, I, I, I'm Catholic and not Baptist, that I'm
4:06
writing these, uh, these cocktail books, but, um, fortunately no one has said Boo.
4:12
Uh, it has not caused any controversy on campus.
4:16
Yeah.
4:16
So what led you into an interest into writing cookbooks?
4:21
Well, it was, it started with the cocktail books.
4:23
Uh, I wrote three cocktail books that give you beer, wine, and cocktail suggestions
4:30
for the feast days of the church year.
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And then I figured after those three cocktail books af after all that
4:36
drinking, I should probably eat something.
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And so, uh, uh, that, that gave us the idea for the, uh, the cookbook, um, and
4:44
the cookbook Dining with the Saints.
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I co-wrote, and it's the first time I've ever had a co-author I co-wrote
4:51
with Father Leo Petaling Hug, who, um, is a celebrity priest chef.
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He beat Bobby Flay in a Cookoff once.
5:00
And um, and, and his recipes are just marvelous.
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So it was the perfect partnership.
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Um, he provided the recipes and I provided the stories and, and.
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That's the way it should be because as much as I like, uh, cooking, at
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the end of the day, you really don't want an Irishman in the kitchen.
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You, you want it behind the bar, but not necessarily in the kitchen.
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So father provided really great recipes.
5:27
Yeah.
5:27
Fun.
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And this new book that we're here to talk about today, abstaining with
5:31
the Saints then is your fifth book.
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You had the beer, the wine, the spirits, the dining, and now we're into abstaining.
5:39
Um, for those people that aren't Catholic, tell us a little bit
5:43
about the Saints and what this concept of their feast day means.
5:49
Sure.
5:50
Uh, there, I think there's a somewhat common misconception that Catholics
5:55
worship saints or pray to saints instead of to God or uh, Jesus.
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But the idea is that saints were simply disciples of Christ who really, really.
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Embodied Christ, they, they really reflected him well.
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And no two Saints ever did it the same way because no two
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human beings are ever the same.
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And the same goes with holiness.
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So we honor these saints and we kind of look to them as role models, as people
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who got the formula right, so to speak.
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And they can help us get the formula right.
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So usually.
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Um, it is on the Saints, uh, the day of his death that, uh, a feast day is
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declared, um, because his death day is actually his heavenly birthday.
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Um, so it's, it's in a weird way, it's a cause for celebration that
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he ended his life faithfully.
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And so we have different saints and we have different
7:00
customs for those saints days.
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And these are saints that the church has officially named, uh, and declared
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to be saints because of the life that they led, the things that they, like
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you said, the reflection of Christ that they were and who they embodied.
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And I love that you said that all of 'em are so different.
7:20
They're, um, different ages.
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Male and female, different nationalities.
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Uh, we just recently had a canonized saint who was 15 years old.
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Um, Carlo Aus was born in what, maybe 2000?
7:33
Yeah, I think he was a millennial, maybe 95, 19 95.
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And he died at the age of 15 from leukemia and did a lot of
7:41
research on eucharistic miracles.
7:43
So there is even saints, uh, modern day Saints.
7:48
Saints that were, um.
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Like you said, this reflection, and I think that that is
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something that is a misnomer.
7:55
I think they teach us how to live.
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They teach us how to be, uh, have Christ at the center of our life to be Christians
8:02
and to be radiant reflections of him.
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And it's a beautiful thing.
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And food, of course, and wine and uh, the things that bring
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people together into community are often, uh, parts of what we do.
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Not only.
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In our own homes with our friends and family.
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But of course, when you take it as an extension to our Eucharist or the
8:23
liturgy, it's just like a minor, uh, total, teeny little reflection of that.
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And, um, I think it's fascinating.
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What was it like, or what's it been like to, uh, you work at a or a Baptist
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institution, religious institution, but to write a book about your own faith?
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Uh, what are the risks or the joys inherent in something like that?
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I guess the, the risk for me is I, I wanted these books to be lighthearted.
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Um, but I didn't want them to be disrespectful.
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And so that was kind of a fine line.
9:00
Um, you know, so I I, I, I like to tease the saints, I admire them.
9:05
Yeah.
9:05
But, uh, you know, you want the book to, to be fun.
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So for example, um, a, one of the First American Saints is.
9:14
Elizabeth Ann Seton.
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She lived during the time of the American Revolution, uh, founded
9:21
schools, founded a religious order.
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Very holy woman.
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But, uh, she was, and she was a widow.
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So, but I just, when I was researching, I discovered some dirt on her that her
9:32
husband and her family were loyalists during the American Revolution.
9:40
And so, uh.
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When, uh, it came time to assign her a cocktail, I found one that
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was called the Benedict Arnold.
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So, so a little twist on, um, even though she's American, uh,
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being a loyalist and, uh, yes.
9:57
And, and that is, uh, makes it memorable.
10:00
Um, assign something unique to her because what you did then is you took
10:03
each saint and looked at their lives and picked, picked a drink or a cocktail
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or some sort of wine or beer or even a meal, I guess in Dining with the Saints,
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that was a reflection of who they are.
10:13
No different than the book we have today.
10:16
Um, abstaining with the Saints.
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Um, did you have to duplicate any saints in any of your books?
10:21
Oh, yeah.
10:22
There's, there's definitely some overlap.
10:23
Yeah.
10:23
But of course the recipes are going to be different, right.
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Because now it's gonna be no.
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And low alcohol.
10:29
Right.
10:29
But, uh, abstaining with the Saints also gave me an opportunity
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to discover New Saints.
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Um, that aren't featured in the previous books, so.
10:38
Right, right.
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So I, I enjoyed that, uh, that sort of, you know, stretching my horizons a bit.
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So what are some of the saints that are heavy hitters that
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made it into every volume?
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Is there any Oh, sure.
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Um, you know, obviously the Blessed Virgin Mary right.
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Uh, is a, a repeat guest.
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Right.
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Um.
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And, uh, uh, who else?
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Yeah, some of the apostles are in all the books.
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Thomas Aquinas.
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Thomas Aquinas is in there.
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Yeah, my favorites are in there.
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Yeah.
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They, they keep popping up.
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So I, I like Thomas Aquinas.
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I like St. Augustine.
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Yeah, yeah.
11:12
Um, yeah.
11:12
Yeah.
11:12
Amazing.
11:13
Yeah.
11:14
Well, um, let's talk a little bit about the topic of this
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book, abstaining With the Saints.
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There, um, is a reason you picked this topic, and I'd like for
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you to talk a little bit about that, um, in the meaning of.
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The abstaining part, uh, with our audience?
11:29
Yes.
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So it's called the no and low Alcohol Movement, and it has grown quite
11:36
a bit, um, especially in the wake of the COVID lockdowns when, um.
11:43
Consumption of alcohol went up 35% and, uh, alcohol related deaths went up 25%.
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Wow.
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So people were staying home and drinking too much.
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And then when that ended, a lot of people realized, gosh, uh, I
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need to, I need to recalibrate.
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So I. Spoke to a number of, uh, owners and inventors of non-alcoholic
12:08
spirits, and several of them basically had the same story.
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I invented this in 2021 as a way of recovering from 2020.
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Um, and uh, and this is also called the sober ish movement as opposed to sober.
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And sober means that you are not you, you're not becoming a tea toler,
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but you are, uh, re greatly reducing the amount of alcohol you have and
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then supplementing with other stuff.
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Yeah.
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We live in a border state, so we have Ohio on one side of the river, Kentucky
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on the other, and I know exactly what you're talking about during COVID.
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Governor Andy Beshear in Kentucky, they had something called beers with beshear.
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Like every evening at five o'clock he gave his update.
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And then in Ohio, I think they had wine with DeWine.
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He was the governor of Ohio.
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So both.
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Governors were connected to an alcoholic drink in terms of an evening time together
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to kind of see how the state's doing.
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How are our cities doing?
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How are our people doing during COVID?
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So, um, I think that you're right that it did like tick this off
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and I've seen it reported in, uh, the media people talking about it.
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And also, uh, from just a health perspective, um, even.
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Millennials, gen Z, people who are of drinking age really wanting to embrace
13:43
this low or no alcohol lifestyle.
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And in a month, like this month, something that has become known as dry January.
13:53
That's exactly right.
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We have dry January and sober October.
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Yeah.
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And, uh, o other, they're trying to come up with other names for the
14:01
other 10 months of the year as well.
14:03
Yeah.
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Um, but yeah, no, it is a growing thing and, and it's,
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you, you're absolutely right.
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It's also a generational thing.
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It's, mm-hmm.
14:11
It's surprising, uh, that millennials and Gen Z just don't seem to
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have the same interest in alcohol that previous generations did.
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I can remember when I was, uh, pregnant with my daughter.
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I mean, my parents were born in the early thirties, and we went to
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a family gathering and my dad was offering wine around the table.
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I said, I'm not gonna have any.
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And he's like, why?
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And I said, because, you know, I'm not supposed to with being, I think
14:35
they were just like shocked, like.
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Why in the world, but I, he said, can you really do that?
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I said, sure, dad.
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It's, you know, if that's what the recommendation is now, it's
14:45
no problem to be able to do that.
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And so for that reason also, um, women of childbearing age.
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I think there's even been research recently about alcohol in connection
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to, um, cancer, certain types of cancer.
14:58
Yeah.
14:59
Yeah.
14:59
And I think that, um, just a good time to take a look at
15:02
the, um, the moderation of it.
15:04
So I'm talk about the ingredients.
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When we, when we talk about cookbooks, there's obviously things that
15:09
go into the recipes, ingredients that we need to have access to.
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If someone, uh, wants to use this book, what might they need to think
15:18
about in terms of stocking their bar?
15:21
Oh.
15:21
That's where it gets tricky.
15:23
Um, I, I, I try to make this book as user-friendly as possible, and one
15:29
of the ways I did that was including, uh, traditional non-alcoholic drinks.
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Like say there's a saint from Mexico.
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Uh, I provide a traditional non-alcoholic beverage from Mexico.
15:43
And often those are made with, you know, ingredients that are easy to find.
15:48
Um.
15:49
On the other hand, there is this growing industry of, uh, non-alcoholic beverages
15:57
that, you know, are brand names.
15:59
So the the bad news is, you know, you will have to sort of shop ahead.
16:04
Um, the good news is, um, at, at least right now, it's very
16:09
easy to do online shopping.
16:12
Mm-hmm.
16:12
So, again, you gotta plan ahead, but, uh.
16:16
You may not find these ingredients in your local li liquor store or grocery
16:21
store, but, uh, unlike alcohol, you can sell this across state lines.
16:26
And so, um, it, it's easy to, to get a good, uh, cabinet of non-alcoholic
16:33
beverages if you plant ahead.
16:34
Yeah.
16:35
And there you can buy 'em across state lines and they can be shipped
16:38
to your home with no, with no problem.
16:40
Yeah.
16:42
Um.
16:44
Low or no alcohol.
16:45
Let's start with spirits.
16:47
Um, things that are replacements for bourbon, gin, vodka, tequila, all the,
16:52
all the mixers that we not, they're not the mixers, but the spirit part of a, uh,
16:57
no pun intended for a Saint book, right?
16:58
Yeah.
16:59
But the spirit part of a cocktail.
17:02
Yeah.
17:03
And uh, so there are a lot of these, as you say, substitutes a non-alcoholic
17:08
gym and a non-alcoholic bourbon.
17:11
And I'll be perfectly honest with you, they're hit and miss.
17:14
Mm-hmm.
17:14
Um, a a lot of them really just don't taste like the original beverage.
17:19
Um, some of them are, are, are decent.
17:22
Um, especially if you, you mix it as you would a cocktail.
17:28
In many respects, the key thing you're trying to imitate
17:31
is the complexity of a drink.
17:34
Um, it, it's, you know, the complexity of its flavor profile.
17:38
Mm-hmm.
17:38
And so mixing several different non-alcoholic ingredients can, uh,
17:43
salvage the drink, so to speak.
17:45
Right.
17:46
And then, um, like you mentioned, it's not only just spirits, but there's also, um.
17:53
Drinks that are from these countries that would have not contained alcohol anyway.
17:58
And so it's maybe a spirit free drink that you could use as a low or no alcohol
18:05
drink, um, from, from a different country.
18:08
What about, uh, I know.
18:10
My husband drinks a lot of, um, you know, it used to be if you drank
18:13
non-alcoholic beer, like Odos was like had, they were cornered on,
18:16
they had the corner of the market.
18:17
But that has really exploded over the past couple of years.
18:21
Absolutely.
18:22
And I'm wondering if, if your husband is drinking, uh, athletic
18:25
brewing company, that's what he started with was athletic and they've
18:29
expanded what they have available.
18:30
It's typically available in restaurants also.
18:33
And now even, um.
18:36
You know, you can find Stella, you can find Heineken, you can find, uh,
18:42
I think Budweiser even has a Bud Zero.
18:45
Um, and it's more common to even find 'em out.
18:48
So it used to be that, you know, sometimes it was hard to find them
18:51
out, but stock Andel at home is, you know, very easy, uh, to be able to do.
18:56
That's exactly right.
18:57
Did you make any beer cocktails or was it in the book?
19:01
Oh yeah.
19:02
So I had plenty of non-alcoholic beer suggestions.
19:04
Yeah.
19:04
And, and my favorite is, uh, athletic growing company.
19:08
And my lo local liquor store sells that right next to, uh, other beer.
19:14
Yeah.
19:14
Non-alcoholic beer has come a long way since o' duals.
19:19
Um, and, um, the reason is you can ferment.
19:26
Uh, non, you can make non-alcoholic beer, or I should say low alcoholic
19:31
beer, like athletic brewing company has like, you know, 0.5% or just yeah.
19:35
Ever.
19:36
So slight a trace amount, but that's just enough for it to make a real beer.
19:42
Mm-hmm.
19:43
Um, and wine has a much harder go of it because in order to make
19:48
non-alcoholic wine, you have to first make alcoholic wine and then denature it.
19:54
Mm. And so you can get some good non-alcoholic wines, but it's, I
19:59
mean, you're, you're doing violence to the wine, you know what I'm saying?
20:02
Yeah.
20:02
You're changing its nature, so that's always gonna be trickier.
20:05
Yeah.
20:05
Whereas with the non-alcoholic beers or the low alcoholic beers,
20:08
you're not changing its nature.
20:10
Yeah.
20:11
What's the base of most of the spirits that are non-alcoholic?
20:16
Uh.
20:21
Things that don't enhance your mood and things that do.
20:26
So what a lot of these non-alcoholic spirits do or have is, um, ingredients
20:33
that affect your mood such as ashwagandha.
20:36
Oh, uh, it's supposed to be a relaxing agent there.
20:40
You know, they're, they're trying to alter your mood in the same way
20:43
that alcohol alters your mood, right?
20:45
That it, it relaxes you, it's et cetera.
20:49
So they'll add these kind of natural ingredients.
20:52
Uh, what's that?
20:53
Lion's Mane was another big one.
20:55
All the, you know, all, all the.
20:57
Dietary supplement stuff, except now you have it in a tasty drink.
21:01
Interesting.
21:02
So let's talk a little bit about the chapters and how you lay the book out.
21:06
Uh, the, the format of it, what people might find if they
21:10
start to engage with the book.
21:13
So it follows the church calendar.
21:16
And I do not have an entry for every day of the year.
21:19
That would be, uh, quite a fat book.
21:22
Um, but I at least try to have it every two or three days
21:27
and you can stretch it out.
21:28
So it, uh.
21:31
In Christian celebration, in, in following the Hebrew reckoning of the day, you
21:38
can start celebrating the night before.
21:41
It's called the vigil of the feast.
21:43
So you know, if you want, if, if it's January 16th and uh, you wanna
21:49
celebrate, but there's only entry for January 17th, you can be completely, uh,
21:55
free to start celebrating on the 16th.
21:59
Yeah.
22:00
And um, it looks like then it goes the 12 months of the year, January through
22:04
December with also, uh, part two of the book, the, uh, liturgical seasons.
22:12
Tell us what the seasons are on top of the seasons of our, uh, monthly calendar.
22:18
Well, we, we, Christians all instinctively know this, even if we
22:22
don't follow a, a liturgical year.
22:26
Christmas is always December 25th, so there is a part of the church
22:32
calendar that has fixed dates.
22:35
But then there's a part of the church calendar that changes every year.
22:39
Easter is always different, uh, because of, what is it, the first
22:44
Sunday after the vernal Equinox.
22:46
Yep.
22:47
So you've got two different.
22:50
Uh, cycles on your calendar after, after the moon.
22:51
I think the moon has something to do with it too.
22:53
The first Sunday after the first full moon, after the vernal equinox.
22:59
Yes.
22:59
Yeah, I think you're right.
23:00
I, I just look at the calendar each year.
23:03
I know it's one of the first things I do when I get a new calendar,
23:06
like, okay, what day is Easter on?
23:08
'cause it makes a difference.
23:09
I mean, Ash Wednesday's on a different day because of that.
23:12
Easter's on a different day if you're planning, traveling
23:15
in, uh, March or April, it's important to know when that is.
23:18
That's exactly right.
23:19
And then, you know, feast of the Ascension is different, Pentecost is different.
23:23
So the Movable Feast of Easter changes a lot of different things.
23:29
So the second half of the book is for those movable feasts.
23:33
I have drinks for Lent, uh, drinks for Easter and so forth.
23:39
Yeah, lent is often a time when people give up.
23:43
Things they set, make a sacrifice of maybe, uh, do not doing something
23:49
or maybe doing something different.
23:51
Trying to live a little bit more of a penitential life.
23:54
And, um, alcohol is frequently one thing that people often give up for Lent.
23:58
So, um, do you feel like this book fits into that space for them?
24:04
Or Absolutely.
24:05
Yeah.
24:05
Yeah, absolutely.
24:06
Yeah.
24:07
Um, and I even have in the book a, a program, uh, for a,
24:12
a sort of Soberist transition.
24:15
Um, there used to be something called pre lent.
24:18
Mardi Gras comes from this where you would either dial down, uh, or in the
24:23
case of Mardi Gras, you, you'd consume all the, all the things that you
24:27
wouldn't be able to consume during Lent.
24:29
And so, um.
24:31
So I have a program for 70 days before Easter where you, you first give up
24:37
hard liquor, then you give up beer, then you give up wine or, or whatever
24:42
order, and then you graduate to the, the non-alcoholic alternatives.
24:46
Yeah.
24:47
So if someone is doing that, that's something that starts
24:49
70 days before Easter, you say?
24:52
That's right.
24:52
So if this year Easter's on April the fifth, uh, March would be 30 days.
24:59
February would be 60 days.
25:01
So start sometime in January then for that 70 day period.
25:04
Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.
25:06
So, is that right, Ash?
25:07
Wednesday is February 18th.
25:09
Correct.
25:10
So that's four.
25:11
That'd be 40 days.
25:13
Yeah.
25:13
So it's It'll be, yeah.
25:15
Yeah.
25:16
It'll be starting soon.
25:16
Yeah.
25:18
Interesting.
25:19
I hadn't heard of, um, uh, the pre-lit period before, but, um, always
25:24
a nice way to kind of transition into it if it's, um, if alcohol's a
25:28
regular part of what you, uh, drink.
25:30
Now this is more than just recipes though.
25:32
If people were to look into the book, there's a lot of
25:35
information as well, stories or, uh, entries for different saints.
25:40
Tell us a little bit about the research you did for that.
25:43
Well, you remind me.
25:44
One of the greatest compliments I got when my first book came out Drinking
25:48
with the Saints, um, is uh, a father of a large family went around the table
25:55
and asked each of his kids, uh, during dinnertime, what's your favorite book?
26:00
And they got to the five-year-old and he said, drinking with the Saints.
26:04
Now it's not that Junior was making himself a cocktail every night, um,
26:08
but mom and dad would make themselves a cocktail and then they would read
26:12
the Saints story out aloud and he, this was his first time he'd ever
26:17
heard the stories of the Saints.
26:19
And as you know, some of these stories are.
26:22
Absolutely wild.
26:24
I mean, they're, you know, there are some crazy legends about the saints.
26:28
I'm not, I'm not going to vow for their, uh, I'm not gonna affirm their historical
26:34
accuracy, but they're like, they're like wonderful stories from your family.
26:38
You know, that you, you hear these weird stories about your crazy uncle.
26:42
You don't know if it's true or not, but of course you, you
26:44
cherish those stories nonetheless.
26:46
Yeah.
26:46
And so the saint stories are really fun and, um.
26:51
And those are what are featured in the books.
26:54
You know, reading aloud to your children.
26:58
Something that if you, we used to do it on a regular basis, then all of
27:01
a sudden they just became of the age where we weren't doing it anymore.
27:05
It's almost like, have you ever heard a parent say, I, I wish I could remember
27:08
the day I didn't pick my toddler up, or I picked them up for the last time.
27:13
Oh, yeah.
27:13
Or I gave 'em a bath for the last time because then they transitioned
27:16
to an age where they were bathing themselves or showering themselves.
27:19
You know, you just never really notice those little moments where these things
27:22
are no longer happening, and I felt like that was the case for reading out loud.
27:27
But even for adults, uh, with two people together, uh, friends could be family.
27:35
Reading out loud is an amazing thing to do.
27:39
More than just a conversation.
27:40
So I hope that maybe people might be inspired if they get this book
27:43
to use it, maybe even to read, you know, passages to each other.
27:47
I think it's, uh, a really neat way to hear a story told, and
27:53
it's not telling the story, it's a, you know, reading a passage.
27:55
I think it's, it's a, something that I've always, um, enjoyed and
28:00
treasured the times when I heard my parents read to me and, um.
28:05
Love doing it with my own children, but it just occurred to me that we don't, once it
28:09
stops, it kind of stops, which is a shame.
28:13
Um, read aloud and also family dinner Yeah.
28:16
Are so important for child development.
28:20
Yeah.
28:21
Um, and especially now when we have such terrible attention spans, um, you know,
28:26
with reels and these little short clips and soundbites that, uh, to sustain.
28:32
The concentration on listening to someone else read is a, is
28:36
a very good mental activity.
28:38
Yeah.
28:38
I think family dinners are still considered to be one of the primary
28:42
foundational things for, uh.
28:46
A success, you know, a child's, um, long-term, uh, success in
28:51
life no matter what they do.
28:52
What?
28:54
Military, vocational school.
28:56
College.
28:56
Oh yeah.
28:56
That's not even what it is.
28:58
It's usually sometimes reflected back to eating on a regular basis with a, a group
29:03
of, uh, committed adults in a family.
29:05
There is, you're absolutely right.
29:08
There's an.
29:08
An institute, I think it's affiliated with Harvard, but its sole quest is to
29:14
promote family dinners because we have discovered that there has been a 30%
29:21
drop in the family dinner in the United States over the past 30 years, and that
29:28
is linked to all kinds of problems.
29:31
An increase of unwanted teen pregnancies, uh, obesity.
29:37
Lower test scores, uh, smaller vocabularies.
29:41
Turns out mom and dad, no more words than you know, your 16-year-old best friend.
29:47
Um, and then even among adults, uh, the loss of the family meal is linked to
29:54
greater mental and physical, uh, health problems and higher divorce rates.
30:00
Hmm.
30:01
Yeah.
30:02
So I mean, all of those things are just amazing that a meal, and I think that,
30:06
um, a, a glass of wine or a beer or a cocktail before dinner has always fit
30:12
into that environment and, um, this book allows more people to participate.
30:17
So, talk about the way that this actually expands, uh, the group of
30:22
people that might be able to participate.
30:24
That's right.
30:25
So it's for one thing, it doesn't have to be Adult Swim anymore.
30:29
Um, because you could have kids, you know, with non-alcoholic beverages
30:33
joining you for your happy hour.
30:35
Though I do stress that it's still optional.
30:38
I, I, my wife and I enjoy time alone with each other at the end of the
30:43
day so we can catch up on, you know, on our day, how did the day go?
30:48
And then we.
30:50
Have dinner with the family and reengage.
30:52
Yeah.
30:52
Um, but anyway, you, you've got options.
30:55
Yeah.
30:56
And um, I think also there are beverages that we haven't specifically
31:00
talked about outside of the non-alcoholic wine, beer, and spirits.
31:04
But let's talk about some of the things that you're encourage Gene,
31:08
and talking about people drinking that are neither of those three categories.
31:14
Kombucha was one of them.
31:15
So let's talk a little bit about kombucha.
31:18
Yes.
31:18
Uh, a remarkably healthy and surprisingly tasty beverage.
31:24
Um, it, uh, is supposed to be really good for your health
31:28
and you can even make your own.
31:29
Yeah.
31:31
Yeah.
31:31
I think, uh, my daughter now, my daughter, my son's girlfriend when he
31:35
was in college, um, was ma Kombucha.
31:38
So she would brew tea, add sugar, and had a mother, which is kind of like the.
31:46
It really did look like a thin, uh, almost jellyfish type consistency,
31:52
I think, for lack of a better word.
31:54
And so she said, Mrs.
31:55
Green, would you like some to try to make it?
31:56
So I said, sure.
31:57
So she shared part of it with me and it.
32:00
It worked great.
32:01
I think you had to have the right amount of sugar in the tea.
32:03
Mm-hmm.
32:03
Um, you had to keep it in the right environment in your
32:05
kitchen, but, um, it really did.
32:08
That mother turned the tea into a fermented beverage and uh, then in our
32:14
kitchen here in Kentucky, it gets warm.
32:16
It got warmer in the kitchen.
32:17
It didn't like that environment.
32:19
So I think it started to mold maybe in the summertime.
32:22
And had I, if I knew now what I. New then what I know now.
32:27
I would, um, have put it maybe in our basement or somewhere where
32:31
it was cooler, more consistent temperature in the summertime.
32:34
But, um, kombucha does vary in alcohol content though, from
32:38
what you said in your book.
32:39
So tell us a little bit about that also.
32:42
Yes.
32:42
So just to give you an example, I don't remember what the percentage is.
32:46
I think it was something like 0.5%, but just to give you
32:50
an example, you can go to.
32:53
You can be a minor, go to a grocery store and buy kombucha.
32:58
It's, it's not cons.
32:59
So it does have trace amounts, but it's, it's not considered an alcoholic beverage
33:04
according to the federal government.
33:05
Yeah.
33:06
And any that would be considered.
33:09
Higher in alcohol are not probably called kombucha.
33:12
They're probably called like some kind of a hard kombucha, or there's a word like,
33:15
like apple cider versus a hard cider.
33:18
Uh, maybe something that would really make it not available for sale in a
33:23
supermarket or only a certain part of the supermarket, or definitely in
33:26
some states probably needs to even be in the liquor store and not in the.
33:30
Uh, the supermarket side.
33:32
Yep.
33:33
Yep.
33:33
So what else?
33:34
Let's see.
33:34
I think you also talk about bidders.
33:36
Let's, um, talk a little bit about those.
33:38
Sure.
33:39
So bidders are, are a part of the standard cocktail repertoire.
33:44
They go into a lot of different cocktails, but they too are very, very low.
33:51
Uh, have a very low content of alcohol.
33:54
So much so that, um, Anga Stewart Bidders.
33:58
Which were invented in, I think it was Trinidad and Toba.
34:02
Tobago, um, that on that island, children actually sprinkle
34:07
bitters on their ice cream.
34:09
Hmm.
34:10
That's their instead of hot fudge or whatever, and it,
34:13
it doesn't get them drunk.
34:15
Yeah.
34:15
Even if you drank an entire bottle of bitters, which you, I wouldn't
34:18
recommend 'cause it's wait for it bitter.
34:20
Yeah.
34:21
Um, but it, it, it won't intoxicate you.
34:23
Yeah.
34:24
And I think those are sold here at our supermarket, just right
34:27
on the shelf with the mixers.
34:29
Like different types of lime or lemon juice, maybe tonic
34:32
water, things like that.
34:34
Yep.
34:34
Yeah.
34:36
The other thing you mentioned is, uh, let's talk a little bit about,
34:39
um, THC or CBD, uh, beverages, which is the active ingredient in
34:46
marijuana and the, um, position of your book related to those beverages.
34:52
Yes.
34:52
So I said I have mood enhancing ingredients in the book, but I did not
34:58
include anything related to marijuana.
35:01
Um, and a couple reasons for that.
35:04
Um, one is I, there's a growing amount of evidence that.
35:08
Uh, marijuana simply is not healthy for you despite all the
35:12
health claims that are made.
35:14
I know it has therapeutic, uh, purposes for people suffering from chronic pain.
35:18
So that's a different story.
35:20
Um, but yeah, it's just, and, and also, I'll just be perfectly
35:24
honest with you, I like.
35:27
A certain high culture that that alcohol breeds, uh, like a certain
35:33
Nick and Nora Cocktail Society.
35:35
I like that.
35:36
Yeah.
35:37
I don't like any aspect of marijuana culture.
35:40
Yeah, I don't like hippies.
35:41
Um, you know, so it's interesting here in Kentucky we have a thriving bourbon
35:46
industry as you, uh, may be aware.
35:48
And, um, there's also a push for a hemp industry and, um, hemp related
35:54
products and beverages containing this.
35:57
And there's a real little kind of.
35:59
I don't think battle's the right word, but little back and forth between,
36:03
uh, the beer in, I mean the bourbon industry and this, and its effect
36:07
on, because Kentucky historically had been a large hemp producing state.
36:12
Mm. So it's really something that is entrenched in our history.
36:16
But, uh, bourbon I think is, um.
36:20
Obviously it's the spirit that Kentucky's known for, kind of like Maryland's known
36:24
for rye, but I have to tell you, mm-hmm.
36:26
I think Jim Beam announced in December that they're not going to
36:29
be distilling any bourbon in 2026 in one particular distillery because
36:33
they have a backlog of bourbon.
36:37
Wow.
36:38
Well, and I have heard that a number of w whiskey distilleries
36:41
are even closing Yeah.
36:43
Because of this, uh, drop of consumption.
36:46
So yeah.
36:46
That's kind of interesting as far as hemp goes.
36:48
Uh, let them have hemp, but just to make rope with Yeah.
36:52
Yeah.
36:53
And that's, that's really what it was used for.
36:55
Um, yes.
36:56
Twisting the strands of the plant to make, uh, to make rope, maybe clothing.
37:01
Um.
37:02
Fabric, material things.
37:03
Things such as that.
37:05
So we are now in the beginning of January.
37:07
Of course we just, at the time of this recording epiphany was just yesterday.
37:11
And um, I know you have the 12 days of Christmas, I think officially.
37:15
Was that probably finished yesterday also?
37:19
Um.
37:20
It's one thing I love about the Christmas season.
37:21
It's not just the day, it really truly is a season.
37:25
So yes, let's dive into January.
37:27
There's a Our Lady of Prompt Seur on January 8th.
37:30
I thought it might be fun, um, since we're in January for you to talk a
37:34
little bit about the saint, the story and then, uh, the beverage, which is
37:38
called almost Prompt, secure Punch.
37:41
Yes.
37:42
So it's our, our Lady of Prompt, uh, and ur or a prompt sucker.
37:47
Oh, uh, S-U-C-C-O-U-R.
37:51
It's just simply an old fashioned word for help.
37:55
Our lady of prompt help and she is the patron saint of New Orleans
38:01
because she is credited with winning the Battle of New Orleans.
38:06
Um, in 1812 or 1813, she was, uh.
38:11
A group of Ursuline nuns prayed to her and.
38:16
Uh, while the battle was taking place and just as the mass ended, uh, a soldier came
38:23
in and announced the American victory.
38:26
So January 8th is a big deal in New Orleans.
38:29
Our lady of prompt sucker.
38:31
For drinking with the saints, I made a beverage called Prompt, sucker Punch,
38:38
and for the abstaining I have it.
38:41
I have it called almost prompt, sucker punch.
38:45
It has the same kind of flavor profile as the original, but without the alcohol.
38:50
Yeah.
38:50
What alcohol did they use in the punch?
38:53
The other book or in the traditional punch.
38:56
So that was a, a cocktail or a recipe that, that I invented for
39:00
a friend's wedding in New Orleans.
39:02
Um, and I included gin.
39:07
Herb Saint, which is, uh, an anis laur that's popular in New Orleans.
39:12
And then just a touch of yellow Chartres, uh, to give it a little complexity.
39:17
Um, for the non-alcoholic punch, it contains, uh, it's, it's basically.
39:27
A very sophisticated lemonade.
39:29
Yeah.
39:30
Yeah.
39:30
That would be sort of the driving, uh, yeah.
39:32
Flavor.
39:33
Yeah.
39:33
You know, making lemonade at home is a, it's a simple thing to do, but it's so.
39:39
Good and so delicious.
39:41
There is nothing like fresh lemons.
39:42
Oh yeah.
39:43
Yeah.
39:43
Amazing.
39:44
So true.
39:44
So true.
39:45
To be able to use that.
39:46
And does New Orleans really need anything else to celebrate?
39:48
I have that question.
39:51
I think it's one of the most lively cities in our uh, country.
39:54
Oh, absolutely.
39:55
Absolutely.
39:56
And I don't know how big a celebration they make of January 8th, but they
40:00
do celebrate, um, a Thanksgiving mass faithfully every year.
40:05
Yeah.
40:06
For the deliverance from the, from the British in the Battle of New Orleans.
40:09
And that was part of the promise.
40:11
They, they said to our lady, you know, you, you defeat the British forest
40:15
and we'll celebrate mass on your feast day, you know, in perpetuity.
40:20
Well, their NFL football team is named the Saints, uh, and they celebrate, um.
40:26
Well, they, they celebrate really big the day before Ash Wednesday.
40:30
Um, oh yeah.
40:31
Yeah.
40:31
So, um, yeah.
40:32
That's neat.
40:33
So a lady of prompt seur, so that's wonderful.
40:36
Yeah.
40:36
So that's an example of the types of things that are in this book, but
40:39
that's just really scratching the surface of one saint with one day.
40:43
This goes all the way through the year.
40:45
And then of course, like we've mentioned in a few minutes ago, the
40:48
different liturgical, um, seasons.
40:51
You know, it's fun to have a seasonal book.
40:53
Um, if someone were to buy this, I. Um, should they just dive right
40:58
into the month that they're in?
41:00
Oh, absolutely.
41:01
Yeah.
41:02
A lot of people look at, see if their birthday is featured.
41:06
Um, but yeah, jump in.
41:09
Yeah, and I think people, um, a lot of, in the Catholic, uh, tradition, when
41:14
we get confirmed, we pick a Saint's name as a, like a third name, so.
41:19
You have your birth name, your middle name, and then we often have a
41:22
confirmation name, which would be a saint.
41:24
So a lot of times people might look up maybe their confirmation
41:26
saint or their namesake saint.
41:29
So a lot of, um, connections with that.
41:32
Often churches are named after saints, so ours here in Fort Wright is St. Agnes.
41:37
So check to see if Saint Agnes has a saint.
41:40
I think her fee stays in January at some time.
41:43
That's correct.
41:44
Our church is, uh, it's kind of funny, it's in a Catholic area,
41:47
but when the kids were little, they would have a spaghetti dinner.
41:50
Like for the families to come and celebrate St. Agnes's feast.
41:53
They always thought that, uh, dinners and time for our parish to get together
41:57
outside of like big traditional holidays was a really nice, uh, break in, uh,
42:04
January to get together to do that.
42:06
Always something that it was a lot of fun, um, to do.
42:12
Was released in October, um, available in bookstores online.
42:18
Um, how can people connect with you if they're interested in doing them?
42:22
Absolutely.
42:22
Um, we do have a Facebook page, uh, drinking with the Saints Facebook
42:26
page, but we are gonna feature non-alcoholic beverages as well.
42:30
Um, yeah, so that would be the, the, the main place.
42:34
Okay.
42:34
I'll link to that, um, in the show notes.
42:37
So as we're wrapping up, uh, since we love cookbooks here on cookbook love podcasts,
42:42
we love cookbook authors like you.
42:44
Um, I would like to ask.
42:46
Two, uh, final questions.
42:47
First of all, if there's someone listening to this that is interested in writing
42:51
a cookbook of their own or wondering how you work a full-time job and write
42:56
a cookbook, uh, what advice would you have for an aspiring cookbook writer?
43:02
Jump in.
43:03
Uh, I mean, the more you do it, the easier it gets.
43:07
Yeah.
43:07
Um, it, you know, it was hard for me to write my, my first book, um, but
43:12
now I'm on number 18 and, uh, you just develop a facility, uh, for writing.
43:19
The more that you do it.
43:20
Yeah.
43:21
And the life of a cookbook writer for you, how would you describe that?
43:26
Oh, it, it is just so much fun.
43:28
Uh, I, I think of it, uh, as a, as a fun hobby.
43:31
Um, fortunately, you know, I have a day job, so I don't need to worry.
43:36
Yeah.
43:36
Uh, about my livelihood.
43:37
So there's no stress involved and it's, it's fun to create and it's
43:42
fun to put two and two together to pair a story with a beverage.
43:46
Um, so it's just, it's just fun.
43:49
And has Skyhorse been your publisher for all of your books?
43:53
That's correct.
43:53
So, uh, it's Regnery, but then Reary was bought out by Skyhorse.
43:58
Yeah.
43:59
Yeah.
43:59
Nice.
44:00
And then the last question is, uh, related to cookbooks in your kitchen, your.
44:05
Cooking life.
44:06
Um, if there's been a cookbook that has influenced you or been a
44:10
favorite of yours over the years?
44:12
Well, I do cherish the very first cookbook I ever received, which
44:16
was a hand me down from my mom.
44:19
It was a Betty Crocker cookbook, and it's all torn and tattered
44:23
and, uh, but, uh, and I've.
44:25
Stuffed it with other recipes.
44:28
Um, but I really, I really like that.
44:30
Yeah.
44:30
Um, and then more recently, um, Steve Ella's Meat Eater Cookbook for Wild Game.
44:38
So I'm here in Texas and every now and then I get to hunt feral hogs
44:43
or, uh, you know, bring down a buck.
44:46
And, uh, his, his recipes never go wrong.
44:49
He really knows.
44:51
How to deal with game meat and not all my members of my family are equally on
44:56
board with, you know, the He-Man diet.
44:58
So I have some very squeamish customers, but even they, even they are satisfied
45:04
with the, the meals I can provide them.
45:06
Yeah.
45:07
And I think sometimes it, it gets a bad wrap just because
45:10
of the, the thought of it, but.
45:12
It's, it's another animal.
45:14
It's um, just because it's, it's wild.
45:17
The flavor isn't always offensive.
45:19
So I think it's good to, you know, have good, good set of recipes
45:22
that can, uh, that's actually life changing for the people that think
45:26
they maybe wouldn't like wild game.
45:28
That's exactly right.
45:29
And when I get ethical objections, I remind them that harvesting your own.
45:35
Game through hunting is, is more ethical than our current slaughtering
45:39
practices in the United States.
45:41
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
45:43
So yeah, and also, uh, um, spend some time outdoors and, um, enjoy
45:49
the hunting seasons, which I know here in Kentucky we have certain
45:53
times that people can go hunting.
45:54
So that's a great, uh, resource and a great list.
45:58
I'll link to that also in the show notes.
46:00
Alright.
46:01
Yeah.
46:02
Well, Mike, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show.
46:05
Uh, wish you a wonderful year.
46:08
Um, are you doing the 70 day lead in or how are you handling the I'm gonna do it.
46:13
I'm gonna do it.
46:14
Yeah.
46:14
Yeah.
46:14
So I'm gonna practice what I preach.
46:16
Yes.
46:16
Yeah, I think that's neat.
46:17
So, um, if anybody's interested in joining in, that's talked about in the
46:21
book, abstaining with the Saints No.
46:24
And Low Alcoholic Beverages for Sober Souls.
46:28
So thank you again so much and I hope you have a wonderful,
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uh, day and rest of the year.
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Thank you so much, Maggie.
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Appreciate it.
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Thank you so much for joining us today for this episode of the Cookbook Love Podcast.
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Again, all the links can be found in the show notes@www.cookbooklove.co.
46:47
And if you are interested in writing a cookbook of your
46:50
own, please check out the free.
46:52
Cookbook writing masterclass called How to Get Paid to Write a Cookbook.
46:57
It is designed specifically for food or nutrition experts,
47:01
and you can check that out at www.cookbookwritersacademy.com/free.
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So that's it for today's episode of the Cookbook Love podcast.
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This is your host, Maggie Green, and until next time, have a great day.
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And keep loving your cookbooks.
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Thanks for listening to the Cookbook Love podcast.
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You can find out more information@www.cookbooklove.co.