Latest / Coaches Rising / 273 - Jordan Gruber: A Symphony of Selves

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273 - Jordan Gruber: A Symphony of Selves · Coaches Rising

0:00
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
0:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is the Coaches Rising podcast.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Today I'm delighted to be joined by Jordan Gruber.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Jordan is the co-author of a book called A Symphony ofselves with James Fadiman of the Microdosing Fame and
0:35
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in parts work, it's exploded in popularity through modalities like internal family systems, then I really recommend this book because it kind of charts the different views on parts work, the different voices in the field and how they see it and how they contrast and the history of parts work and the history and psychology of how we saw are we a multitude of parts or are we a single self and so we're going to unpack some of the big ideas in the book
1:04
[SPEAKER_00]: including where parts come from, how they evolve, and a topic we wrestle with is, is there a self, you know, a super self and inverted commas, you know, other, other parts work modalities, posit that there is, and Jordan has his own view on that, so we wrestle with that.
1:21
[SPEAKER_00]: This conversation really weaves to get a lot of different topics, mysticism, microdosing, and of course all about how we can consciously work with parts.
1:29
[SPEAKER_00]: A few more words about Jordan before we dive in.
1:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So he is the founder of the Early Online Spiritual Community Enlightenment.com.
1:37
[SPEAKER_00]: He trained as a lawyer.
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[SPEAKER_00]: worked everywhere from law firms to NASA's Moffitt Field, then became known as the practical wordsmith, writer, ghost writer and coach for the transformational world.
1:50
[SPEAKER_00]: He's co-created leading edge work across this field of psychology and spirituality.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He's the co-author of microdosing for health.
1:59
[SPEAKER_00]: healing and enhanced performance with James Faderman as well as this book we're going to be unpacking today.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Next, he'll be launching the enlightened stack on sub-stack.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So without further ado, let's dive into today's podcast.
2:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So Jordan, yeah, it's good to be with you.
2:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really excited about our conversation today.
2:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me just check in how you doing first of all.
2:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you.
2:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you weren't so well last week, but yeah.
2:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing great.
2:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a strong sleep recovery and back
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[SPEAKER_01]: I've been putting out some great work even when I was sick.
2:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm, I'm good, and I'm excited about this.
2:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been excited about this conversation since we scheduled that.
2:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it's kind of funny because, you know, I was just saying with you, it was a bit awkward.
2:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We put our program out symphony of self.
2:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, firstly, someone reached out saying, hey, do you know about this book?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Once we've got the whole thing launched, your symphony of selves, which we didn't.
2:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And, um,
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and then you've been really gracious about the similarity in the name and stuff.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm really glad we're talking now and it's a great book and I'm really, really happy to share your perspectives on the importance of parts with our community.
3:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited to be here and I appreciate your openness and from the very beginning.
3:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
3:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
3:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I will.
3:21
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got a lot of topics to cover, but I wonder if you could say maybe something about why you decided to write the book in the first place.
3:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, what had you feel the need to do so?
3:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, from the time I was in my 20s, I experienced that sometimes I was in a very different part of who I was and the people with me and it shifted and so I was sort of always aware of this.
3:51
[SPEAKER_01]: and we stay close friends and they're still friends.
3:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And around 2015, one of his daughters said, you know, dad, you've got to write that book about parts or cells, you know, it's important.
4:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And so Jim knew that I was a writer and an editor and
4:08
[SPEAKER_01]: He asked me if I would help him write the book and pretty quickly it evolves into me being co-author.
4:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And he had some basic ideas.
4:17
[SPEAKER_01]: He had noticed as well that starting in the 60s really that sometimes people are in very different sides of who they are and people don't talk about it a lot.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, earlier, sometime in the 70s, Jim actually went to Europe and worked with or Roberto Assegioli,
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[SPEAKER_01]: and helped him compile some articles.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So Jim had some kind of professional training in psychosynthesis, but he kept taking notes about the single self, whether there was one and what it meant for people to go back and forth, that he had actually seven folders of information that he gave me to start the book.
4:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he handed me all of this material and unlike the later book that we just wrote about psychedelic microdosing,
5:04
[SPEAKER_01]: He pretty much gave me free reign to write this up of the way I saw.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And by nature, I'm an encyclopedist.
5:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I like to find out everything, at least an English, that anyone's ever said about something.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I set myself on a very low-in course of looking at everything from the religion and the spirituality to the psychology, to the neuroscience.
5:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And also a lot of the different cultural manifestation of cells.
5:29
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the great things about our book,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because there's lots of people, like one cartoon, for example, is there's a Russian doll sitting on a psychiatrist couch and she says, you know, Doc, I keep feeling that there's other parts of the inside that want to come out.
5:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just a very funny visual gap.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we collected all of this into one place, into one book, and looked up, you know, deeply into the psychology that started in the 1880s with Sean Martin,
6:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Alfred Beney, and all these folks were into this, and Freud got involved, and he believed it, and then he changed his mind, and Carl Jung has his own take on it, and then you saw cells developing through people like Shrio Bendo and the mother, and G.I.
6:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Gergif, the great, you know, Armenian mystic, and all the way up to Jean Huston, you know, a modern teacher.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so there are many people who have put out cells, and including IFS, as come on board,
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[SPEAKER_01]: most recently as a very bright star in the consolation of this work.
6:37
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you look at the totality of it, it becomes very clear to us that people do have these different parts or selves or subpersonalities or altars.
6:49
[SPEAKER_01]: We categorize 80 different terms of people use for selves in different contexts.
6:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's as simple as that when you're having an argument with yourself,
7:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Or if it's late at night, you want to have that milk and sugar snack right before you go to bed, you know, which what's happening inside of you.
7:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we ended up coming up with a perspective that says that that cells are real.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we call themselves mainly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I can call them parts of that TZ here for us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That parts are real and that cells are self-states, which is a term that goes back to Paul Ferdern and then Charles Tart.
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[SPEAKER_01]: who is a friend of both of ours, of Charles pastries, and they really represent kind of recurrent patterns of mind-body chemistry, perception, behavior, if you think of complexity theory, there's attractive basins.
7:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So the idea is almost that you have, most people have five to 15 main attractive basins of personality that they move in and out of.
7:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you know me pretty well, I'm different when I'm talking with someone like you,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then if I'm talking to my close friends and, you know, we're in an altered state, or if I'm with my daughter, or if I'm with my daughter, this 26 and some of her friends, I really do act differently.
8:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And what we came up saying is that your different cells are real and they often have substantial differences in what they value and what they believe in and that ultimately you have to find a way to work with all of your parts or cells.
8:26
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to find a way to love all of them and work with them.
8:29
[SPEAKER_01]: just exclude them, some of the attempts with the people who were diagnosed with multiple personality disorder and later DID was kind of like a chemical castration where they attempted to kill the cells with certain drugs and certain notices and other patterns.
8:46
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't believe that that's a good thing and it didn't work.
8:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we just brought it all together in one book, including the really fantastic book called The Mind of Billy Milligan.
8:57
[SPEAKER_01]: which was written by keys who wrote flowers for aldernown that famous sci-fi short story.
9:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's this 400-page detailed psychiatric and police record of the Skyhue 22 different selves.
9:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And in some of them, he had basically superpowers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He was in a scape artist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He was fluent in surrogate Croatian.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He'd been like, he was illiterate and never studied it.
9:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's a lot out there when you look at the big picture
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[SPEAKER_01]: of what people are talking about themselves.
9:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And we just determined to put it all together in one volume and it took us about five years to write the book.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we were very happy with it when I came in.
9:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's...
9:38
[SPEAKER_00]: the book is it's it's it's so thorough it has so many different perspectives in that sense it's like it is like an encyclopedia of of cells and its history and all the different views on it which I think is just so valuable and rich for people so there's so many questions I can ask you but let me ask you first
10:01
[SPEAKER_00]: what I know you're describing in a sense what a self is.
10:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But could you say more about what you actually think a self is like why do they exist?
10:13
[SPEAKER_00]: How do they form?
10:15
[SPEAKER_00]: What do they do?
10:16
[SPEAKER_00]: You know I know these different schools or approaches, you know like for example I FS have different types of parts they identify but how do you see that when a part is?
10:29
[SPEAKER_01]: that's a really hard question.
10:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean in the book we document all the different ideas of where cells come from.
10:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of it might have to do with when you're a kid and early language modeling on your parents.
10:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people think they're actually, you know, come from a previous incarnation.
10:51
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not really sure where cells come from or how they exist and one of the things
11:00
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times those questions aren't as important as the pragmatic utility of understanding that these are real.
11:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, it's a lot harder for most people who haven't thought about this to understand that they have different selves and that they're real and that they're inherently valuable and that they're not always going to agree.
11:20
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot harder than to try to convince someone that a small amount of psychedelics might help you perform better or heal depression.
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[SPEAKER_01]: because in our culture from psychiatry to religion, religion is one God, one soul, one self.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's all you get.
11:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So, where does it actually, I mean, certainly some of it has to do with the way our brains are wired when you look at the default mode network and you look at toning down the default mode network when you're on certain psychedelics, we feel that that enables people to escape dysfunctional self
11:59
[SPEAKER_01]: a attractive basin of personality that isn't always agitated or isn't always in pain or think of Eckhart Tauley talking about the pain body.
12:10
[SPEAKER_01]: If you can kind of relax the part that you're in and relax at the fall of mode network, you can move into a different self and I think another really useful construct that comes from two British writers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: One is named Rita Carter, the other is John Rowan and they both wrote extensively about
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[SPEAKER_01]: uh, major cells, minor cells and fragments, and so for us, it's not really as important to figure out the ontological reality of cells, and if they're real or not, it's more important to realize that you have these parts, and that you have to treat them with dignity and with love.
12:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll give you an example, in one of about 10 years ago, I was with my
13:00
[SPEAKER_01]: very young and feminine.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was a very young, very upset girl part of me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I don't see the self a lot, but when that self came up in real time and I was able to articulate to the other men in the group what I was experiencing and why I was so upset and what was going on, it really let me release a lot of the trauma that I had associated with that part of who I am.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, you can try to model yourselves.
13:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You can try to give them nicknames.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can try to give them certain roles.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a lot of what IFS does.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's pyrphiders and exiles.
13:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it has all of these parts, but we're really reluctant to kind of give them specific names and specific roles and specific functions, just because, you know, sometimes that's valuable.
13:54
[SPEAKER_01]: working in a coaching system where that's the whole lingo, and that's a very powerful that can be very powerful for people.
14:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But for us, most of the game, for most people, is just getting them, you know, to put their camels, nose, under the tent, and look and go, well, if I treat these parts of myself is being real, and if I treat the cells and other people in my life is being real, then I can have a more effective life.
14:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things we like to say is that mental health is being in the right mind at the
14:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's much easier to move yourself into a cooperative self than it is, you know, if there's someone you're going to meet and you always have a certain kind of fight with them.
14:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're already in that part of you and you're thinking about it and you're having meditations and you're angry when you go meet up with them 100% certainty that you're going to have the same conflict you always have.
14:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you shift yourself ahead of time to.
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[SPEAKER_01]: being in a part that's more cooperative and realizes that this isn't all who the other person is as well then things tend to go a lot better between you.
14:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So the more we have a sort of an x-axis in the book about how people become more cohesive with themselves and the more cohesive you and yourselves are, the more you know they exist, the more you value all of them, the more you know that some of them are,
15:18
[SPEAKER_01]: that you're not going to like, then the more coherent you're going to be, meaning the more understandable you're going to be, the more congruent you're going to be, meaning that you're going to do what you say, and the more compassionate you're going to be, both towards you and the part of you that wants to react, and towards the other people, and the parts of them that aren't all who they are.
15:40
[SPEAKER_01]: and that, you know, you can recognize it's not all who they are, and you can cut them a lot more slack.
15:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's kind of how we see it.
15:48
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we don't really know for sure where they come from, although the book documents, a lot of the different ideas of where cells might come from.
15:55
[SPEAKER_01]: We're more interested in, you know, how do you recognize that your cells are real?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That they're innately valuable?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That they often have agendas, parts that you're not going to like, and you're going to have to find
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[SPEAKER_01]: a way to work with all of them and ultimately find a way to as one of our contributors put it to love them up into the whole.
16:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's so much in what you share there.
16:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's
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[SPEAKER_00]: how I see the value in our conversation.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, the listenership is mostly practitioner's working with others.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so it is about what's the practical, what comes out of seeing that we are made of these selves.
16:35
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the use in that?
16:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're articulating that really beautifully.
16:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think let me see if I can, in a sense,
16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, my question, I want to share the question, but then share a little bit of preamble and then come back to the questions.
16:49
[SPEAKER_00]: The question really I have is like, you know, based on all your research and what you learn, what is the best way to Be with parts, you know, or what is the effective.
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[SPEAKER_00]: process that allows one to become more effective.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason why I'm asking is because I've sat with this question and it's like, is it that actually we are a collection of parts and that the more aware we become of these parts, the more skillful we can become, we can utilize different parts.
17:24
[SPEAKER_00]: They'll always be there,
17:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is it that like some of those proposed that and you're almost said like compassion it towards I think you use that word it's like who is compassion it towards parts is that and is that a part being compassionate so is it like or so is it like the more we recognize parts so naturally
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[SPEAKER_00]: bring love to certain parts which maybe have a less desirable impact.
18:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Do those parts then begin to integrate and actually we become more spacious and start to live from a different place which isn't a part or you know so I could add more to it but let's start there because I think this is a really
18:21
[SPEAKER_00]: see what comes up.
18:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, when we came over the title, your symphony of selves people immediately says, well, a symphony has a conductor.
18:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So ultimately, you're saying, once again, that there's a super self on top of the whole game.
18:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And just to be clear in our book, we go out of our way to question what we call the single self assumption, that there is one single super self that that's over all of it.
18:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I now see, the conductor being, is your physical body, your physical incarnation.
18:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I do believe that we have something like a soul and that, I don't know where that exactly comes from, but it's sort of an autopiotic evolutionary process, that as you are incarnated and as you grow up, different cells come in and are part of who you are,
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are in some of the scientific literature people talk about rolling in a self and rolling out a self based on what you need in the moment.
19:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that we do have these different parts of who we are, but I don't think that there's any one super self.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's more becomes kind of a consortium almost or or or, you know, a lived group
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[SPEAKER_01]: over time and you kind of move through them and bring them to bear, you know, in terms of what they know about you in real time.
19:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, language is really hard on this, like you're suggesting, because you want, we want to attribute agency in a certain way.
20:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, all we're trying to do is be very pragmatic, saying in terms of pragmatic psychology,
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[SPEAKER_01]: let's say pretending even that you have these different selves and that they are real and that they're not all going to agree with each other all of the time and the more you are aware of them and the more cohesive you are with all of them the more skillful you're going to be in life.
20:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's about as close as I can get to answering you know that question.
20:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean they're alternate metaphysical and ontological reality and how we know about what is their real or not.
20:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean those are interesting questions
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[SPEAKER_01]: The practice, so I'll give you an example.
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[SPEAKER_01]: One of the men in my men's group, last night, revealed to us that he has an anxious self, and that it's always anxious about it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then we established that he's actually he likes that part of himself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it gives him a lot of levers and he's had a very successful career in the entertainment industry over time, because he was always able to work with that part of him.
21:08
[SPEAKER_01]: But he has another part that isn't so good with dealing with feelings in real time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it kind of will feel overwhelmed and shut down.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so he hasn't really learned to just be present with that part of him as a march.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And kind of helping steer him towards being able to be in that part, especially when he's with the other five of us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we know in love each other very deeply, it's very healing for him, because that part of him can come out and be present in real time.
21:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do think it's about, but thank you, thank you for responding.
21:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do, I just really agree with you that it's not the so interesting to get into a kind of, is it real or not metaphysical conversation, but it's kind of like,
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[SPEAKER_00]: attitude, like for example, the reason I love this inquiry because I've had people in the podcast who said, you know, parts are real in the sense that they show up in people's lives and, you know, that's so we can be with those parts or we can give voice to them.
22:23
[SPEAKER_00]: and but what will happen is you'll become friends with that part and it will stay there and you know it might change in its nature but it will be there and then I've had other people come on and say that is not like for example Dan Siegel said like
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[SPEAKER_00]: We can't make parts now, there are things, there are states, and we reify parts by seeing them in that way, and it has an actual fundamental consequence on the practical relationship to the parts, so these people in this camp, you know, the D-reaf, I've come like Dan Seagull,
23:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Steve Marcher saying more like, well, parts actually, they actually, if they're met, you know, and this comes back to who's meeting that part, but if they're met with a kind of unconditional regard, you know, and I think that is a common thing within self-swork.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then they will actually liberate the
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[SPEAKER_00]: the kind of patterning that's caught with it, that makes up that part, and it will sometimes, not always nothing's guaranteed, but it will transmute into a kind of, well, it will just integrate release or maybe a quality of presence might come through.
23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: That's been my experience, too, in doing parts work, and I'm more of an explorer and curious, I don't
23:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have one side I'm taking in this, but I find it fascinating that there are these two views and I don't, so it's not to say, I think people are saying there's a super self, but there is, like I notice when I'm with parts, there's often this kind of quality of
24:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Love that can emerge, that's just, but it doesn't feel like it's another part meeting the part.
24:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Would I call that a super self?
24:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but anyway, so yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's an interesting inquiry.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, we start out by saying that cells are cell states, recurring patterns of
24:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're not really trying to reify them, but I guess I would rather err on the perspective of your parts are real and are real things so that people will take them more seriously and not, I mean, part of the problem with the super self view is that people want to ultimately,
25:12
[SPEAKER_01]: do sort of, if they're having a problem in life, they want to do kind of a psychospiritual hell Mary and say, all I have to do is contact the part of me that's basically God and everything will be all right.
25:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, we're saying that from an observational psychological pragmatic point of view, that superself is real in a very different way than yourself's are.
25:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Jim Feynman has this joke about,
25:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, that part you doesn't show up the way your individual parts show up and some of your parts are going to be in a space where, you know, if you have a spiritual devoted part, then that part is going to experience the divine in different ways, but you might have other parts of you that are, you know, very pragmatic, let's say you're heavily into playing ping pong, you know, when your ping pong self is up, you're not
26:11
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, maybe you'll see the divine flow when you realize that, as you're hitting the other guys moving, you can see the whole default of energy, but it's a very pragmatic embodied part.
26:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So the desire to kind of bring the superself into everything, we feel ends up for a lot of people being a distraction from the reality in the sense of pragmatically experiential and
26:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, regular pattern parts of you that will show up and do show up, that that's the whole game is knowing that you have these parts and getting to work with them.
26:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And so for us, it's worth it to say, you know, we're agnostic about this, you know, the high self.
26:53
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I gave you sort of this this access here, you're completely in cohesive, you don't even know you're a different part themselves, they don't talk to each other, you say things to somebody and, and then you don't, the other parts don't remember and over here you have the fully integrated cohesive self.
27:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's another axis, there's a y-axis, and Jim came up with this after Jim was talking to Sam Harris.
27:15
[SPEAKER_01]: When the y-axis, on the very top, you have a single self that, you know, oneself to rule them all.
27:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And on the bottom of the y-axis, I'm getting confused, you have zero self, and that's what the Buddhist one, and that's what the Taoist one, they don't even see a necessity for the
27:35
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing about it is, is that of the different cells you have on the x-axis, if you're more cohesive on the x-axis and treating your cells as if they are real and pragmatically valuable and they all have their own needs and you have to love them, then your whole life is going to work better and that will include whichever part of you whichever cell is into the y-axis and maybe you're into Jesus as the signal cell or maybe it's a different conception
28:01
[SPEAKER_01]: of what that one unitary, you know, self is and the, you know, there's a lot of people have written a lot of things, I mean, Alan Watts, for example, I mean, there's a single witness self or maybe actually you end up solving with the Buddhists and the Taoists and going, there's no self, it's not really, I don't need the construct.
28:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So no matter where you are in this y-axis and this y-axis kind of work, you still have to do the x-axis work.
28:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So treating yourselves
28:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I think that the complexity science and the idea of attractive basins, which you could even probably neurologically map out, is just really valuable.
28:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where we kind of end up on.
28:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that you take a stand for that because there's so much bypassing going on and I've been guilty with that in my life and you know it's easy even to have a kind of spiritual self that you know thinks it's the super self and actually it's just it's avoiding dealing with life for it's you know scared.
29:10
[SPEAKER_01]: If you read the minds of Billy Milligan this book by Daniel Keyes
29:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, which is so such a foundational book here, he had one self called the teacher when they finally, in these interviews with these psychiatrists and didn't want to get to talk to the teacher, the teacher says, well, I'm the one who really holds it all together.
29:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm the one who's made a possible for us to even have these in-depth conversations about, you know, two of his selves kind of decided to which of the other selves were allowed to be in the spotlight and, but then there's a moment where something happens, there's
29:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And the teacher self basically high tells it runs away.
29:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And the part of him, that's a server Croatian thug that's been in jail, shows up and he's able to handle himself.
29:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, there is value to this notion of a super self for a lot of people of the single witness self, but it's not everything.
30:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And pragmatically, observationally in the real world
30:10
[SPEAKER_01]: different parts of who you are.
30:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if I knew you better, if we spent a few days, I would begin to see your different selves, show up in different patterns, and you would see mine, but I would not ever see your high self.
30:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Unless maybe we were on, you know, it really high does the Versailles Cadelic together and having a breakthrough experience or something like that.
30:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, they're not part of the regular world that we're seeing in.
30:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So we try to keep the focus just really pragmatic,
30:39
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, once you know that you've got these different parts, again, mental health is being in the right mind at the right time, or if you have a part that is, you know, poorly behaved, there's an incident themselves.
30:49
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a discussion between Jim and someone who has a serious pornography addiction, like 12 hours a day kind of thing, and the first thing Jim said was, stop making that part of you wrong, you know, take away the bad name you have for start getting dialogue with it and find out a way if maybe it could be okay with an hour a day.
31:09
[SPEAKER_01]: or every couple of days instead of having it.
31:12
[SPEAKER_01]: So treating yourselves as real makes them feel validated and makes them come to the table and makes them be willing to actually be in discourse with you.
31:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where the healing comes.
31:27
[SPEAKER_01]: If you treat them all, and one of the things that I have that I've always questioned is that a lot of the earlier
31:38
[SPEAKER_01]: your parts become conflated with yourself, and that's a bad thing.
31:43
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to separate them because the self is the whole ballgame for them.
31:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're going, you know, that, that, that high self, it's a fantastic spiritual construct, and you see it in conversations about spirituality all the time.
31:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I spend a lot of time on clubhouse, and people just, you know, all the time will say, well, you have to be true to yourself, and it's like it becomes a, a shibble.
32:07
[SPEAKER_01]: a formula, a repetitive formula for how you're going to get out of everything by being in contact with this one part of you that is the true whole part of you and we're saying, well, let's take that out of the equation.
32:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's work with the parts of you that are real, but sharpen a regular basis, especially the ones that you have trouble with, let's learn to be better about, you know, wheeling them in and wheeling them out when, you know, you need to have them, let's see what it's like to try to hold more than oneself, you know, in consciousness
32:37
[SPEAKER_01]: at the same time, and then we'll go from there.
32:39
[SPEAKER_01]: If it turns out in the end that you still want to do this why axis, you know, single self thing, you know, that didn't create, but let's start with the real world and the real selves that are you that show up on a record basis and find ways of healing them and working with them and acknowledging them.
32:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Because very often when you acknowledge a self that has been, you know, kept out for a long time and doesn't get to,
33:03
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, be in the light or doesn't get to drive and there's a lot of different metaphors.
33:07
[SPEAKER_01]: That self is so grateful that it often behaves pretty well and contributes a lot more than you ever expected that in mind.
33:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I feel, let me, so I don't, I want to ask in a moment, you know, how do we have the right mind at the right time?
33:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a beautiful phrase, but
33:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, in my own journey, one thing that was helpful was, you know, recognizing, because I see the tankers behind you that there were different Tibetan Buddhist views and, you know, or, you know, maybe you could say different spiritual views, one being like a kind of renunciate view of no self, you know, so you've mentioned Buddhism.
33:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But actually, in certain specific Tibetan tantric views, as best as my knowledge is, it's like they don't have that as the goal, they have a kind of contextualized, what liberated ways of being.
34:11
[SPEAKER_00]: that are that show up in different moments, you know, so it's in it that that path is actually more about your effectiveness and the liberation of energy in any one moment.
34:23
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not about kind of coming from some transcendent place.
34:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So I find that interesting in terms of what you're saying about the right mind at the right time.
34:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels like there's a skillful means possible.
34:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I do feel like
34:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I meet people who, so maybe this is the game and the thing why I asked about what is a part or what is a self because I do meet people who seem to be more free than others, you know?
34:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
34:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And they seem to be in this place of love, you know, you know, even like palpably through their eyes and I meet those, okay?
35:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, we'll be saying, that's a loving self.
35:07
[SPEAKER_00]: They're in a loving self right now.
35:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
35:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like it seems like there's something shining through that person that doesn't seem like a self.
35:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I have moments in my own day-to-day
35:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just in a kind of sense of rapture at the hedgehog family that I found in the garden, and I'm like, wow, is this, but is that a self in that moment?
35:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is why I'm sorry for, I'm like, I know I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
35:51
[SPEAKER_01]: an association with the Hindu god, Kartakaya, murdered, who is Ganesha's older brother and is both the Hindu god of war and a scholar.
36:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have a friend who is from India and Hindu and when he looked at my life and some of the things I told him symbolically that I've experienced going back to a really young age, he was like, yeah, you know, not that I am Kartakaya, but an emanation of Kartakaya
36:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And I can feel that some of the time.
36:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But is that any more real or is that a part of me that is more open to these larger spiritual influxes?
36:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't really know, but I know that when I value it and I work with it, I'm more empowered.
36:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, you'll see me kind of defaulting to a pragmatic
36:48
[SPEAKER_01]: observational point of view.
36:50
[SPEAKER_01]: When I allow for the reality that I might actually have an association with Cartica, I'm, you know, smarter and stronger.
36:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And is it true?
37:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it true?
37:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it, you know?
37:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like we just kind of hit, I love this.
37:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't care whether it's true or not.
37:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm with you on this, it because what matters is that when you feel that, it feels great and it maybe you experience the world in a particular way.
37:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And certain actions or expressions become possible, and it's not there all the time, you know?
37:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also think that,
37:30
[SPEAKER_01]: There are times when, you know, you went back to this earlier.
37:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I had my first full-blown mystical experience when I was 16.
37:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Long before I ever started working with even pot or psychedelics.
37:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I was with my high school journalism class on the steps of Columbia University in Manhattan.
37:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was also, you know, was falling in love with a woman who was part of the trip, my friend Randy, who was now a rabbi.
37:59
[SPEAKER_01]: In that moment, I felt it.
38:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt the curtains rising up.
38:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It was fall.
38:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I saw the colors.
38:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I was in a really high, blown out state.
38:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So was that a self-report or was that an influx of the divine, a theophony, an in-breaking of the divine in real time?
38:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was still able to walk, and maybe it lasted 10 or 15 minutes,
38:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was a nature mysticism experience in real time.
38:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And I can't say that, you know, I think a part of being was still functional enough to be able to kind of hold that and work with it.
38:41
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't feel that that was, I don't feel that that was a part of herself.
38:46
[SPEAKER_01]: That was something that came in that I'm primed for and, you know, I've always been prone to those kind of experiences.
38:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was, it was very real, but it wasn't, it wasn't a self-like the way I'm talking about them now.
38:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, yeah, it, yeah, thank you for that.
39:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wonder then about right mind, right time.
39:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, you mentioned Jean Houston, you write about her in the end of the book, towards the end of the book, and she shares, you know, through, I was reading in the book, that she's kind of utilized these different selves to, to live a kind of a very creative life, you know, to write all these books, and I think she gives the, you know, I'm, I use my cooking self to write a book, as I heard writing, you know, that she's got a dog loving self that she likes to
39:40
[SPEAKER_01]: her dogs and spirituality.
39:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, no, genus, genus powerhouse.
39:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So how do you adopt the right mind at the right time?
39:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, do you have a sense that we can learn to shift cells?
40:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Or, yeah, kind of, yeah, absolutely.
40:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So just, you know, going back to basics, most people are afraid to acknowledge
40:10
[SPEAKER_01]: that are different and that are real.
40:12
[SPEAKER_01]: They think that means their schizophrenic, which is a complete misunderstanding of what schizophrenia is, even those schizophrenia does have voices involved, but that's more of an organic breakdown of the brain.
40:22
[SPEAKER_01]: They think they're mentally ill.
40:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Even when people talk to themselves out loud, which almost everybody does from time to time, they think that they're gonna be thought of as being mentally ill.
40:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So the hardest, the hardest balance,
40:36
[SPEAKER_01]: The hardest barrier to get through is for people to just go, but they have these different selfs or parts or so personalities, and that they're absolutely real.
40:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Once you get that, everybody has their own way of figuring out how to work with them.
40:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there are a lot of, you know, and so a lot of what the book does is a catalogs different ways of different people work with selves.
41:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And everybody, you know, there's an L.P.
41:03
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a Gestalt therapy.
41:05
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just a lot of different ways that people work with selves.
41:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of the big, so we try to keep it simple.
41:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the big breakthrough understandings is that if you get into a self that's not appropriate for what?
41:18
[SPEAKER_01]: The situation you're in, it's very difficult to get out of that self in real time.
41:24
[SPEAKER_01]: That self thinks it's right, and it's going to double down, and it's going to make it very difficult.
41:33
[SPEAKER_01]: before you meet with that person who you always have the fight with.
41:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Or last night in my men's group, I had a little thing with one of the guys, and it happens to be that I speak astrology a little bit.
41:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have an Aries son and moon and it was an Aries full moon.
41:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I knew that I was potentially volatile.
41:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was triple certain to like not even bring up the thing we had at a little
41:55
[SPEAKER_01]: bite about and to just it wasn't important.
41:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think knowing that you have selves again, let you be more compassionate for you and for the different parts of you that you know want to say something or want to come out into the world and also the people that you're working with that it's it's not all who they are you know if you're in a family dinner and your uncle Abder you know is very different politically than you are and he starts talking about things you can engage
42:23
[SPEAKER_01]: which will bring in a negative way, which will lock you into the self that's, you know, wants the fight with him, or you can just kind of smile and love him and wait to least done and move on to another conversation.
42:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So for us working with selves is the, you know, it becomes obvious how to do it.
42:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of a self tutoring thing once you realize that this is the way we're actually built.
42:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Get the single self assumption in the model that there's just one us is so,
42:53
[SPEAKER_01]: deeply embedded in linguistically and psychologically and in religion.
43:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It is pretty much everywhere, and so people, they get really nervous when you say this, actually functionally speaking, pragmatically speaking, there really is more than one of you.
43:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Once you recognize that for us, that's most of the ballgame.
43:16
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not to say that certain powerful systems like
43:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And now IFS, you know, they've come up with more elaborate ways of working with your your parts yourselves, and a lot of them, including psychosynthesis, have a spiritual self in the middle of it, we're saying, you know, that's not necessary.
43:36
[SPEAKER_01]: All you really have to do is understand that yourselves are real, and that you need to find a way to work with and love all of them, and that you can't, you know, push them down like a beach ball.
43:48
[SPEAKER_01]: under the water.
43:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is one of Carl doing this great realization is that they will pop up and they will pop up in the worst time if you don't pay any attention to them.
43:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to love and work with all of yourselves and find a way of loving them while up into the hole.
44:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And that can be just as simple as as knowing you have them and recognizing and loving them.
44:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to be a really complicated thing where they all have names and they all have
44:17
[SPEAKER_01]: ways that they act and you have to do these complicated things.
44:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's what some people like and that will work for some people.
44:23
[SPEAKER_01]: But for us, for most people, it's just getting them to understand.
44:28
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk about in the book, a friend of mine, Christina Lazar is an artist, and a coach, and loves fine, alcohol, and she talked about how earlier in her life, it was really difficult for her because everybody wanted her to be just one thing.
44:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're not just one thing.
44:46
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we have different, we have these different parts.
44:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And so for me, example, I love to sing.
44:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love to have people listen to me sing.
44:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And being comfortable enough for me to, you know, sing what I want in real time has been, you know, people always say, well, don't give up the day job.
45:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, that's one another part of me, wants to come in and, you know, and slap them across the face.
45:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And why do you have to, and so it's like, but then I don't let that part come out, because that's not going to be productive.
45:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I've let myself sing more and more over time because it just, because I love that part of me and that part needs to love to come out and it honors my mother who was a bit of an actress and local theater for many years.
45:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it's just finding a way to honor all of the different parts of who you are and get to work with them.
45:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And really the only baseline entry criterion is this going that you have these different parts,
45:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of them, and you will have different perceptions, Daniel Goldman, the famous psychologist wrote in the New York Times about a guy named Timmy.
45:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it was someone who was in prison for all these different styles.
45:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was diagnosed with the DID.
45:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But one of his styles, Timmy, he was an 11-year-old boy.
46:03
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the only part of him that wasn't terribly allergic to iron stews, didn't break out into highs.
46:09
[SPEAKER_01]: If he went into any other part of him,
46:12
[SPEAKER_01]: and he drank orange juice, the hives came out.
46:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But if he wanted to Timmy in real time, the hives would go away.
46:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we also see people have different eyeglass prescriptions sometimes.
46:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Different cells, but the problem with this is that Hollywood in particular wants to exaggerate the supernatural power of this.
46:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And usually one of the cells is going to be dark and evil.
46:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And you see something like United States of Tara.
46:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's always about the cells that are not working.
46:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they have superpowers.
46:41
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, we don't want to make it a free show.
46:43
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to say, if you switch your baseline psychological understanding of what human beings are to understand that everybody has these different parts or selves of subpersonalities, then you move in and out of them, you know, on a pretty reliable and predictable basis, then you by acknowledging their reality, you gain the ability to love them all and work with them all.
47:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's really as complicated as it needs to be for most people.
47:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So to ask a question that invites more complexity, have you found your paths as you've got to know them or love them contained virtues or do they change?
47:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Do they transform or change, are they just, yeah?
47:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do think they change over time.
47:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the part of beta, I have a pattern
47:41
[SPEAKER_01]: and I'll feel mistreated or not seen, but then I'll hold it in to like get to the point where it erupts and I get angry and I mess things up.
47:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I've learned now that it's better to speak up really early, even though another part of me gets embarrassing times when you know, I'll interrupt someone and say, you know, this really is a working crumbi.
48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So the part of me that likes to hold on to stuff to look any ruped and, you know,
48:09
[SPEAKER_01]: getting involved in that whole triangle between the perpetrator and the victim and the rescuer.
48:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I've learned to not engage in that triangle as much, just by being patient.
48:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, having the part of me that wants to be impatient, have it be more patient, and have it the part of me that does know how to speak up.
48:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And recognizes that, you know, I'm a 65-year-old man who's
48:36
[SPEAKER_01]: done a lot of cool stuff and people value and love me and I get to have a voice and if something is not working for me, I get to speak up in real time and that's not a bad thing even though when I was for your four, my parents were like, no, you can't speak up now.
48:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't get too much into the early psychology and I haven't been through a full psychoanalytic eight year thing like my brother has been so I don't really have
49:02
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, precise opinions about where certain things didn't wire the way they might have most possibly wired when I was a kid, but I do feel that these parts are coming out more.
49:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, for example, I'm going to work with, I'm going to launch a sub-stack holding a light and stack.
49:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to work with multiplicity and micro-dosing and music and magic and mysticism.
49:26
[SPEAKER_01]: All these things that, you know, are who I am and what I embody.
49:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And part of the enlightened stack is muscle.
49:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And in the last 20 years, I put on 20 or 25 pounds of muscle.
49:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm into with even more.
49:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm looking at Dr. Gabriella Lyon and Muscle Center.
49:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Medicine and my eating has become a lot better.
49:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm eating more protein.
49:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've evolved my whole way of working out at the gym.
49:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not embarrassed about that anymore.
49:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like,
49:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's part of who I am and I'm doing much better than most men my age or losing muscle mass at this age and I'm gaining muscle mass because it is the organ of longevity and I do want to be around for why.
50:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So the part of me that has always been frightfully thinking I'm inadequate, I've let that part rest and drop and I can let it as a valve and that's now just part of who I am.
50:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to ask you about microdosing and parts in a moment, but something you just said quote my attention, I don't know if this question will bring anything, but what's the relationship between mysticism and selves, if there's any?
50:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that goes back to what we were talking about.
50:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I told you I had an early mystical experience, way before I ever started working with any substances, and I think the easiest way to think about it is that it's a different
50:49
[SPEAKER_01]: are more open to having mystical experiences.
50:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, that's as far as I can really go because otherwise you start going about, I have this one mystical truth to self.
51:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, that's, again, people who want to work with that model and base everything around it.
51:09
[SPEAKER_01]: That's fine, but the snow is effective in the real world, we don't think.
51:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Because again, you become prone to the psychological
51:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, all you have to do is find a way to connect with yourself no matter what's going on.
51:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And instead, I think it's more valuable go.
51:26
[SPEAKER_01]: You have a grounded present self.
51:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, for example, I have a part of me then when actual danger and real world crisis shows up, I get very grounded and very present and able to act.
51:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I was with one of my partners and we stumbled into a hornet's nest that she was being bitten
51:49
[SPEAKER_01]: and she was crying and falling to the ground.
51:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And I got really quiet inside and thought, okay, gotta get out of this space without anybody breaking an ankle.
51:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm gonna get stung a couple of times, but otherwise she could fall to the ground and break a limb and be stung dozens of times and we can't have that happen.
52:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can't really quiet.
52:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, is that a self that has a mystical witness part to it, maybe,
52:17
[SPEAKER_01]: but it's also just a very pragmatic real world cells that knows how to do stuff in the real world.
52:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I just kind of accept that when I need that part of me to be present, it's gonna show off.
52:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, beautiful.
52:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thanks for indulging me again.
52:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me, I love the fact that you keep coming back to the same question from a lot of angles,
52:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and we keep getting a little bit more clarity on what it is, but I don't know that wherever, you know, some of those games are like Tetris where you, you know, finally get the whole row and then the whole thing drops and then you're open, you have that clear understanding.
53:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we're going to get to a much more precise verbal definition of what cells are and
53:08
[SPEAKER_01]: if they really evolve and what happens when you no longer they're no longer very active because they seem to be integrated.
53:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean those are really interesting questions but I don't know how much they help most people in real time.
53:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I hear you.
53:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I hear you.
53:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I wonder about that.
53:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I feel that like first of all, the super self or what do we want to call that?
53:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I do feel the dangers in, I mean, it's a brilliant articulation you have of like suddenly now you've got this kind of desired place to reach.
53:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And it also makes you, it also makes you devaliore your other selves that are real.
53:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So you've brought up bypass now, if you're, if you're really focused on getting that one self, but your regular life isn't cohesive and your selves aren't working with each other, then, you know, how many people do we know who have gotten really into one spiritual path or another and they end up being parts of calls and their life stops working because they're really focused.
54:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I was sort of like that when I was younger.
54:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I really believe that there was a state of enlightenment that was like an orgasm that lasted forever.
54:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I just fasted enough, and did enough drugs, and did enough systems, and did enough breath work that I would permanently be in this enlightened supercell.
54:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And at some point, I gave that up because, you know, I think there are people who do seem to be like that.
54:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you hug the mother, you know, what's that like?
54:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I went to Rajneesh Perm, I didn't get to meet Rajneesh, but I saw him.
54:50
[SPEAKER_01]: in his car, an analog organ driving by or the people I know who knew Bubba Free John, you know, uh, Doffrey John, I knew a guy who robbed him gave him all 20 sessions and his name was Jim and he said that when he was done working with him, his psychospiritual vision was fully open for days.
55:09
[SPEAKER_01]: He would know what people were thinking, he would know what their dreams were, his view of R.S.
55:14
[SPEAKER_01]: were complete self.
55:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I do believe that there are enlightened super beings among us, and I'm not one of them, but there are those people, and I don't know what goes on with them, and I think that they would tell you that they don't really have these different parts of cells, and so maybe something does happen with them that's entirely different, but most of us are not going to be there and be that kind of person you already know if you're that kind of person
55:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also, you know, yeah, to give it up.
55:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know if I'd want that, you know.
55:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's, I've certainly tried to achieve that.
55:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Or I had that.
55:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it was a kind of projection that, you know, was there to have me avoid my life.
56:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I think where I was going is that, but I think probably you'll agree with this is that, and
56:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And as I've matured, I've felt like I've become more spacious.
56:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's a trend, now it's a trend, it's not all the time, that I've become more grounded, more compassionate, loving.
56:28
[SPEAKER_00]: In a sense, what you might say is like, more of my beautiful personality
56:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have some more space for your different selves to kind of play their their roles and to work together.
56:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think you've got this one thing, and so you've got to be, you know, this one tiny thing.
56:53
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not.
56:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But not just the different selves, but that there's a sense of centredness inside of that.
57:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not just like, I'm moving from one self to another, but there is a sense of centredness, more centredness arising.
57:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not, it's not like it's a permanent state of, and actually for me that sense of centredness,
57:17
[SPEAKER_00]: grips freedom for more freedom for what the different things that are arising to to arise.
57:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, that's the right.
57:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
57:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I do like the metaphor of a soul.
57:31
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you can center in and through your soul and then it has the ability to have all of your different selves working with it and moving through space time as you as the right one comes into
57:46
[SPEAKER_01]: dominance for every any given situation.
57:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So we do, we do have more space and we do have the ability to let all of these different facets of who we are, shine through.
57:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
57:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for indulging me, Jordan.
57:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I keep coming back to the road to the road to the road.
58:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's been really helpful for me, actually, to kind of turn it over from different sides.
58:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd love to ask you about, you know, you mentioned micro-dosing.
58:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wouldn't if you feel that is a valid kind of area of exploration, our conversation, the relationship between micro-dosing.
58:23
[SPEAKER_00]: and self.
58:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So, do you feel that microdosing can, in a sense, enhance our effectiveness around being in the right mind at the right time?
58:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
58:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So, let me just define microdosing first.
58:43
[SPEAKER_01]: The way Jim Fatima and I are using it, psychedelic microdosing, not microdosing,
58:49
[SPEAKER_01]: coffee or a whole bunch of substances that we say don't work the same way, like cannabis and MDMA and DMT, for microdosing, you stay at a threshold that's below an altered state.
59:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And in this threshold, and it's definitely not a placebo, and we have a new paper working with the mineral signs that Dr. Connor Murray showed that, absolutely, forever ends the
59:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're in the sub altered state.
59:21
[SPEAKER_01]: You might know that you're on something.
59:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And with microdose and most people are doing a protocol.
59:26
[SPEAKER_01]: The fabric protocols, you're on day one, you're off day two, you're off day three, then day four, you're on again, and you go for six or eight weeks, and you take a week or two off.
59:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So when your microdose and you're able to have your ordinary day without any quams, you're not having any visuals, you're not having any big breakthroughs, psychological breakthroughs,
59:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, it's your ordinary sense of self, but it's a little bit the notice how I use that word.
59:53
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're going through your ordinary life, nobody knows you're on anything, but most people have a little bit more energy and are more effective.
1:00:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And what I have found is that I'm more aware of which self I'm in and I have more facility to shift between selves when I'm microdose.
1:00:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if you go over the microdosing level, and you're into mini dosing, it can be easier to get stuck in a particular cell, depending on what substance you're using.
1:00:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And that could be a little bit more problematic, but if you keep it to the range where most of the thousands of reports that we've had and the science that we do have says is where it really works in this in the sweet spot, what I've called a peak efficacy zone or
1:00:43
[SPEAKER_01]: then it's easier to work with cells.
1:00:46
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see them, you can move between yourselves more easily.
1:00:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And the kind of brain correlate of this is that your default mode network is turned down.
1:00:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You have more access to the different parts of who you are.
1:01:01
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're brain is configured in many different ways, you have more access to the part of you that loves doing music or that for me as a writer and an editor,
1:01:13
[SPEAKER_01]: bring my writing and editing self to the chair on any given day that means I have to water it and walk it and give there enough food and let it have a little bit of fun.
1:01:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I can sit down for two, three, four, six, 10 hours with breaks in between or what it needs to do.
1:01:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, when I micro does say I'm just more aware that I do really have these different parts of who I am.
1:01:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And if things still come up when your micro does say
1:01:43
[SPEAKER_01]: that has been traumatized or as it gets angry, it's easier to see that too and to recognize, it's just one part of who you are.
1:01:52
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not gonna, you're not gonna be in that part forever, especially if you recognize that it's an upset part and you need to find a way to, you know, mindfulness comes in here a lot, you know, they talk about going to the balcony and observing everything that's going on.
1:02:07
[SPEAKER_01]: where you can do one of the different settling techniques.
1:02:10
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the breath techniques, or Andrew, who we're going to talk about the deep and breath through the nose, and then a second, and then let it out through your mouth.
1:02:19
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that that actually works to settle you and bring you back down into your body.
1:02:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So I absolutely think that microdosing and cells really go hand in hand.
1:02:30
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't talk about microdosing or psychedelics in your symphony of cells.
1:02:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And we didn't talk about healthy multiplicity and microdosing for healthy healing and enhanced performance, cause we wanted to keep them separate, we didn't wanted to conflate it.
1:02:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But now in retrospect, it's really obvious to me that if you have a working understanding that you have these different cells or parts, then when you're microdosing, you can make that even, you can lock that and even more.
1:03:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see your different parts or cells.
1:03:02
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see the self that you don't want to,
1:03:05
[SPEAKER_01]: being based on what you're about to do, kind of heading in your direction and you can find a way to go, you know, I love you, but I don't want to be in the part of you that likes to start fights with the people you love right now.
1:03:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just not go there.
1:03:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So I do think that they work together hand in hand.
1:03:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So it sounds like it helps with that process of being in the right mind at the right time, in the sense of you're more attuned to when a part shows up and then so there's awareness, which is key I think because if you're if you're fully identified with a part you don't maybe know you're in it.
1:03:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can see the part
1:03:46
[SPEAKER_00]: and then you can, you know, do something like breath work or, you know, using the body too.
1:03:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're by or sing a song that you love.
1:03:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's, there's lots of ways to bring yourself back to center and we're gives you more options about which part you're going to be in now.
1:04:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:04:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's I think and I think that's that's the where for me have found selves and parts really practical.
1:04:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like noticing when I've identified with a part and it's become kind of really reified and solidified and then that there is this shift that can take place where I notice and there and then that sense of choice and possibility opens up.
1:04:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's almost like there's these different
1:04:35
[SPEAKER_01]: knowing that you have parts or cells and that doesn't make you crazy and then being curious about what your different parts and cells are.
1:04:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And then as you work with that, you gain more skill of being able to shift into the right mind ahead of time or out of the wrong mind ahead of time.
1:04:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's kind of, it is a skill based that builds up over time.
1:04:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And my experience of microdosing is, as with most things, if you're really keeping into
1:05:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It enhances your performance and you're able to do better with that.
1:05:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And you mentioned, was it Konnamori?
1:05:10
[SPEAKER_00]: The best Dr. Konnamori speech?
1:05:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:05:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, so we're putting out a peated cup house.
1:05:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Had something called a flourish academy.
1:05:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And in the flourish academy, we brought Konnamori to discuss these three different papers that he wrote with the woman named Harry DeWitt.
1:05:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And through the course of these papers,
1:05:32
[SPEAKER_01]: very clear that in terms of, and this was in a double blind within the subject control.
1:05:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So people came three different times, didn't know what substance or what dose they were getting.
1:05:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's something called the ARCI BG instrument, which is a measurement of mental clarity and flexibility.
1:05:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And they found very clearly that above a certain dose
1:06:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they gave two different doses and at the, those that was a micro dose or just about a micro dose, people had more of this clarity and then at the higher level, it went away.
1:06:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So there really is a sweet spot.
1:06:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Similarly, they had a reward behavioral program where you're supposed to do the little test and even when you win at it, people who are depressed aren't excited or happy about it.
1:06:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were able to show that.
1:06:25
[SPEAKER_01]: When you were a micro dosing at the actual micro dose level,
1:06:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, based on their brain layers that we can demonstrate that they did experience a roar, but that they went above that level to, you know, to double a microdose that went away as well.
1:06:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the last paper was in 2024, and they have this measure of this measure of neural complexity.
1:06:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And what it turns out is that, and even the very low doses of LSD, that measure of
1:07:00
[SPEAKER_01]: of it, then even though they might be having a blissful time, they're not going to be able to function as well.
1:07:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Once again, there is a sweet spot in how much you take.
1:07:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an inverted U curve.
1:07:13
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like without call.
1:07:14
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have
1:07:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe one or two drinks, you're feeling good, you're speaking well.
1:07:18
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you have too much, you're going to lose that.
1:07:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And eventually you're not going to be able to talk at all.
1:07:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're going to feel terrible.
1:07:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So there has been a long talk, even among the leaders of the psychedelic movement about we're still not sure whether microdosing is really a placebo or not.
1:07:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, just a couple of weeks ago, a paper came out with 17 of the top psychedelic folks, including some people who we know and like.
1:07:41
[SPEAKER_01]: and they start out by defining micro-dosing as being no different than a placebo.
1:07:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's clear to us that neither RedNAR book or are familiar with Conner's work showing that both subjectively and from actual part brainwaves in this double blind placebo controlled study that there is a sweet spot.
1:08:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've known this and we've talked about this and are many
1:08:06
[SPEAKER_01]: many reports we've talked about this so you know for me if I there's a certain amount of micrograms of LSD that I take where I have great workouts at the gym if I take more than that by giving a little bit I'm out of microdosing I'm in mini-dosing and the first 15 minutes are great and then I'm tired and I'm bored and I want to go home so the idea that less is more and that less is enough goes very much against western science and in fact
1:08:35
[SPEAKER_01]: A paper came out in March about whether LSD works for people with ADHD, but the problem was they tested 20 micrograms, which is not a microdose for anyone except maybe people with ass burgers.
1:08:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I functioned it out just as they seemed to need two or three times a dose for a microdose to work.
1:08:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So putting that aside, they had this paper and they said it didn't work and
1:09:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It got reported throughout all the news media as microdosing doesn't work for ADHD.
1:09:07
[SPEAKER_01]: But the thing was, they didn't test microdosing.
1:09:10
[SPEAKER_01]: They tested a low dose or a mini dose.
1:09:12
[SPEAKER_01]: They tested twice the amount at the high end of that works as a microdose for people.
1:09:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So of course, if you give people with ADHD 20 micrograms of LSD, they're not going to be able to focus as well.
1:09:26
[SPEAKER_01]: We could have told you that before they did the experiment.
1:09:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they stopped their whole research program.
1:09:32
[SPEAKER_01]: They said, well, it doesn't work.
1:09:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And it got reported everywhere.
1:09:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't work.
1:09:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And we were disappointed because we thought that these different news organs and media that should have been familiar with this.
1:09:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Should have known that this is way too much.
1:09:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't in the sweet spot.
1:09:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So of course, it wasn't going to work.
1:09:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And it seems like a small point and a nuance.
1:09:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's a very important point.
1:09:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's
1:10:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's five to 12 micrograms of LSD.
1:10:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And it seems that the longer people microdose the less they need.
1:10:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Silicide is harder to talk about because it depends on what if you're using Silicide retaining mushrooms, it depends on what type of arrival you have.
1:10:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Some things like albino painus envy have almost three times a dose as simple goals and teacher has.
1:10:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's also difficult with psilocybin because people who have healthier livers and digestive systems need less because what's happening psilocybin is being converted into solution.
1:11:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So having said all that with psilocybin, it seems to be between, you know, one tenth of a gram, or sometimes it's half of that, you know, it's 50 milligrams to about 300 milligrams or three tenths of a gram.
1:11:20
[SPEAKER_01]: We used to give the average dose as, you know, the high end is being 0.35 grams, but we've now found that most people when they have that much, depending again on the variety and the health of the digestive system, it's too much and they start to see visuals, they start to have psychedelic ideations, they start to have questions about, for me, I had a cat with diabetes and had to give them two shots a day.
1:11:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I was doing more than a micro dose, I wasn't available in my household to be the person who gave her P.D.
1:11:51
[SPEAKER_01]: and shot.
1:11:51
[SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't want to work with needles when I was doing more than micro doses.
1:11:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, it really varies.
1:11:57
[SPEAKER_01]: The safest thing for people to do is start low and go slow.
1:12:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Start at the low end and see if that's gonna work for you.
1:12:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And then move your way up.
1:12:07
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and we had an interesting thing, we were gonna have the book published in England by a big publisher.
1:12:15
[SPEAKER_01]: because instead it was too dangerous for them.
1:12:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you give any specific dose range, and mention an illegal substance, then that itself is an illegal act.
1:12:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But before they pulled out, they said, how would you feel about us taking away all these dose ranges and just saying like, a really small amount of LSD?
1:12:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we just kind of laughed at them and say, we're talking about micrograms, a million of a gram to begin with.
1:12:40
[SPEAKER_01]: saying a very small amount won't be helpful.
1:12:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, one of the hard one pieces of knowledge is the fact that there is an average dose range that works for most people.
1:12:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're brand new to this, you know, it's different for people who are better and psychedelic people.
1:12:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And they actually usually have trouble keeping to the dose because they want to feel something.
1:13:01
[SPEAKER_01]: They want to feel like they're just starting to have a trip.
1:13:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Jim Fiamm and came up with the analogy of an airplane,
1:13:09
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to stay at the level where you're taxing.
1:13:12
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to stay at the level where you're lifting off.
1:13:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And you don't want to be at the level where you're 30,000 feet.
1:13:18
[SPEAKER_01]: If your micro does, and you want to stay at this level.
1:13:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing about microdozing is it keeps you in the sweet spot.
1:13:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And over time, as you go through a protocol, you learn a lot more about how to use it.
1:13:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's sort of we believe that the anti-inflammatory effect built on itself.
1:13:37
[SPEAKER_01]: and perhaps the mitochondrial effect that mitochondrial works better, and there's more BDNF, and that works better, and something in Clubhouse gave us an analogy.
1:13:47
[SPEAKER_01]: They said, look, if you take 100 micrograms of LSD, the ordinary recreational trip, and have that experience, we're saying having 10 micro doses of 10 micrograms over the course of a month, during which experience are you likely to remember and learn more to use what you've experienced?
1:14:06
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the hundred micrograms might be fine and you might have a breakthrough and have a spiritual fioffany and, you know, part of you, it's traumatized and you might, that might happen, but you might also be slightly traumatized and it's going to be hard to remember exactly what you went to.
1:14:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, one way of thinking about it is that most of the psychedelic experiences that most people in the West have had since it became
1:14:30
[SPEAKER_01]: popular in the 30s and the 40s and went on from there are a kind of overdose, and that the real medicinal level of dose is the microdose, and they act as very, very different substances.
1:14:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it can be super great to have your brain wide open and, you know, the default milk, that work goes ahead entirely, and you don't even know who you are anymore, and, you know, I certainly done my share of that, but as, you know, someone who's a little
1:15:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not looking for that super transcended moment that will bring me into permanent life mid-full time anymore.
1:15:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I've let that go, like I said, and I'm much more interested in another analogy, Jim Fatteman has used this like a potter's wheel, that you kick.
1:15:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You kick it on day one, and then on day two and three or shaping the clay after the experience.
1:15:22
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, we found that very often day two, the second day people like it the most,
1:15:30
[SPEAKER_01]: and there's at least one expert that shows people have the most sleep.
1:15:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the second day effect is that's where the most value is and in day three, you're completely reset and avoid any problems with tolerance.
1:15:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And then on day four, you know, you're ready to go again.
1:15:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And then after that, six or eight weeks, you want to take a couple of weeks off.
1:15:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this, you know, I read Chris Baish's book and I've got in the name, I don't know if you know.
1:15:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've looked through, yeah, he took like 75 large dose, mega doses of life, but why I bring it up is because he said, actually, he doesn't recommend that anymore.
1:16:06
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why he was like, I don't recommend high doses to people anymore, and he has his own reasons for that.
1:16:14
[SPEAKER_00]: But, um,
1:16:16
[SPEAKER_00]: What I like about what you're sharing is, I think I'm quoting him right there.
1:16:22
[SPEAKER_00]: He does make a point about recommending lower doses than he took.
1:16:29
[SPEAKER_01]: But the thing about micro doses in particular, so you know, our book is called microdosing for health healing and enhanced performance.
1:16:38
[SPEAKER_01]: The number of physical conditions, things like Lyme disease and shingles and cluster headaches,
1:16:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And the number of mental to situations like treatment, resistant to pressure.
1:16:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's all of these different pieces that microdosing seems to work with.
1:16:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So in the psychedelic leadership, there's this notion that some of these more serious things, well, you have to have a high dose and work with the therapists.
1:17:06
[SPEAKER_01]: But we have many reports of people having treatment, resistant, depression, lifting, without them having had a big spiritual breakthrough.
1:17:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And the same thing with enhanced performance, like the word is out in the world of long distance running and in martial arts.
1:17:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And in, you know, my thought is that eventually people in every art, you know, from knitting to table tennis, which I love to all these different things that you will have people realizing that if they stick to a real micro dose, they can be better at what they love most.
1:17:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reward to risk ratio is so high with microdose.
1:17:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you take a higher dose, there's always a little bit of trauma involved with it.
1:17:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Your heart races and sometimes it can get really weird.
1:17:50
[SPEAKER_01]: If you stick with a microdose, none of that ever happens.
1:17:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet the cumulative effect over time seems to be positive for all these mental and physical health conditions and for performance.
1:18:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It almost seems to be good to be true.
1:18:07
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the neuropusticity, it's the anti-inflammatory.
1:18:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's my country, it's a return to homeostasis.
1:18:13
[SPEAKER_01]: All of that is happening in a way that's like not a big deal and no one else in your life will usually even know that you're on the microbase.
1:18:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, last time I did it, my diet improved naturally so much.
1:18:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just like, wow, I'm not drawn to being those foods anymore.
1:18:28
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I was like, and there's no real power.
1:18:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:18:32
[SPEAKER_01]: People that will microdose for one thing often find
1:18:37
[SPEAKER_01]: or that, you know, they'll be exercising more.
1:18:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's sort of a natural easy way to let your natural intelligence shine through.
1:18:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I wanted to say before was it's like trauma integration, you know, like Peter Levine came along and critiqued cathartic experience, you know, that people were an excellent, I think he was remarking, people are having all these cathartic experiences, but blowing their nervous systems out and they weren't able to integrate what had happened.
1:19:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so these trauma therapies have come through and they're actually, it sounds a little bit like microdosing, you know, it's like, you have like, you know, small, tight rated experiences of tapping into something and then, you know, you don't need to go in further and further and but accumulatively over time that is a much better effect and there may be situations where you do need to hide us or the therapist or you want to go to South America and, you know,
1:19:36
[SPEAKER_01]: work with a true, you know, I wasca Shaman who knows what they're doing or you might want to go to Africa and work with the I've again if you have a serious addiction.
1:19:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there are times you want to avail yourself of, you know, the big power tools in the system, but very often people don't need that.
1:19:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And so because the reward to risk ratio is so high with microdosing, you know, a lot of people can gain tremendous amount from it without
1:20:03
[SPEAKER_01]: having to go through the potential trauma and the evidential integration of the larger doses.
1:20:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Jordan, I, we're at our time, and I just wanna, in fact, we're a little bit over, so I thank you for staying on.
1:20:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Just for, thank you, really enjoyed our conversation thoroughly and really appreciate the broad kind of synthesis of different perspectives you can bring in.
1:20:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So just tell us, yeah, well, thank you.
1:20:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, yeah.
1:20:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I thought it was great.
1:20:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you notice it took my glasses off about a third of the way through and I did that because then I'm less distracted by anything visual but I can still see you fine on my big screen and I was able to be more than the part that's just interested in dialogue.
1:20:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can do these little things sometimes to sort of adjust the self you're in and then bring it in more powerfully.
1:20:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, just for people to understand that self's are real.
1:21:01
[SPEAKER_01]: and that they're valuable, and that they, you know, you gotta learn to acknowledge them and love them and work with them and talk it to yourself.
1:21:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't mean you're mentally ill.
1:21:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It means actually the opposite.
1:21:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It means you're recognizing these pragmatical.
1:21:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You have these different parts by learning to work with them and see them acknowledge them.
1:21:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Your life will work better.
1:21:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Beautiful.
1:21:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:21:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Why can we find out more about your work, Jordan, and the book, Seferin?
1:21:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:21:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You can go to jordangruber.com, and that will bring you right into your symphony of cells.
1:21:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You can also find the latest book that Jim and I wrote, the URL microdosingbook.com, one word, microdosing book.
1:21:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And there we also have a place for people to give us their stories and their questions.
1:21:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you can find both of those.
1:21:54
[SPEAKER_01]: online, um, just jordanruber.com or microdosingbook.com and I'm pretty easy to find on, you know, LinkedIn and Facebook and, uh, you know, I write about writing a lot.
1:22:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got a new pet peeve about the phrase, it's not about this.
1:22:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about that, which is an AI thing that is spread so far and wide, but it actually doesn't make things clearer.
1:22:17
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of a sloppy way of writing and thinking.
1:22:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
1:22:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm a one-man brigade against trying to get people to not use that phrase anymore.
1:22:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But so, you know, I'm in a lot of different places and eventually my sub-stab the enlightened stack will amount in the full force.
1:22:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm not there yet.
1:22:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Nice.
1:22:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, John.
1:22:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
1:22:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So this was a great conversation.
1:22:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate you and our ability to dialogue like this is great.
1:22:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:22:45
[SPEAKER_00]: You too.
1:22:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Here we are.
1:22:47
[SPEAKER_00]: We're at the end of the podcast.
1:22:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Just a heads up again.
1:22:50
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coaches rising dot com put your name in the sign up box there.
1:22:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there and just want to end by wishing you well and I'll see you again next time.