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Will the US move towards Deep-Sea Mining? What's Really at Stake for the Ocean and Our Future · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
Over the past number of years, I've had Dr. Andrew Thaler on the podcast
0:04
to talk about deep sea mining.
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It is a very interesting topic to discuss, but it's also one of the scariest things
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because we just don't know at all anything about the deep sea compared to what
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we're gonna do to the deep sea by mining these polymetallic nodules and extracting
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them from the surface and bringing them up to the surface of the Ocean.
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This is something that we need to talk about, and I've had Andrew on
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a number of times, but this time we had him on because he contacted me.
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He's like, Hey, Andrew.
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Do you wanna talk about how I testified at a congress committee on deep sea mining
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last week, and I was like, absolutely.
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I watched some of it.
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I was very intrigued.
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It was very cool to see my buddy Andrew on tv or on YouTube, I guess where it
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was shown, but also surrounded really in between two of the biggest CEOs in deep
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sea mining history, I guess at this point.
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'cause there's not much history, but there is history.
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And so we talked about what it was like to testify, how he decided to testify and
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what it was all about and how he felt.
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So we're gonna talk about that.
1:00
On today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast, let's start the show.
1:06
Hey everybody.
1:06
Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
1:09
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, Marine biologist and science communicator
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here to tell you what's happening with the Ocean, how you can speak up for
1:15
the Ocean, and what you can do to live for a better Ocean by taking action.
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Now, over the last month or so, or maybe two months, we've seen a lot
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of requests for information on deep sea mining for the American Samoa.
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We've seen it for the Marion Islands.
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We've seen it now going to part like a little different type of mining for
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Virginia, and now it was just about to be released Alaska, that they're looking
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to do deep sea mining up in Alaska.
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And we saw, you know what the expectation is for public comment,
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people can put in their public comments.
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We saw what those comments were for American Samoa, for Marion Islands,
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it was very heavily in favor against.
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Doing any type of deep sea mining without more information and how
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it will benefit those islands because it's messing up their sea.
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It's very far from mainland US and it's messing up the territories around them
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and what's gonna happen to their islands.
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Those are the ones that are gonna be affected, And so we're seeing a lot
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of that build up the public comment.
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But the other parts.
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Process, our public hearings and these hearings are very important
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to find out what we have on record, no matter what happens.
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To have on record the advantages and disadvantages of doing deep sea mining.
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And Dr. Andrew Thaler, a good friend of mine, a colleague friend of the podcast,
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has been on this podcast a number of times to talk about deep sea mining among other
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things, all the other stuff that he does.
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This is sort of like his true core talking points and what he
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knows about, he did his PhD on it.
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He was the editor of the Deep Sea Observer, which is a
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magazine, the industry magazine.
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He talked to the CEOs of the metals company, talked to a bunch of other
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CEOs, got to know the industry, got to be plugged into the industry.
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But being a scientist and a deep sea ecologist, so really
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understanding and bringing to light.
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All the environmental factors that play into how dangerous this could
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be for the future of our planet, for the future of our Ocean.
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And so having him on the podcast to talk about how he testified at a
3:05
congressional committee on deep sea mining was very enlightening for me.
3:09
It was very cool to have him on the podcast.
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He came in, he was jazzed up to do this.
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He emailed me over the week and he said, Hey, you know what I wanna talk about?
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Do you wanna talk about it in the pockets?
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I said, absolutely, I do.
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We got a time together and we put it together.
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And this is really informational for me, I assume for you as well.
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One, I'm Canadian, I'm not American, so I'm not used to the process as
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he mentions to be able to have.
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Information on record for any other administration that comes through
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or any other flip of Congress.
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If Congress flips in 2026 during the midterms or even the Senate
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flips, we'll have that information on record that they can use either
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for or against deep sea mining.
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So I think it'll be interesting to see what happens there.
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But let's get to the interview of Dr. Andrew Thaer of his testimony on
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the Committee for Deep Sea Mining.
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Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after.
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Andrew Thaler.
3:54
Welcome back to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
3:57
Are you ready to talk about not only deep sea mining, but talking
4:02
about deep sea mining in front of a committee, like a government,
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a federal government committee?
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You testified.
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We're gonna find out all about that.
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Are you ready to talk about it?
4:12
I am ready.
4:14
Right on.
4:15
I can't tell you enough, Andrew, how one proud I was as a friend of yours, um,
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to see you, you know, in a suit, first of all, in a suit, you know, in front.
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Is it a Senate committee?
4:28
Was that what it was?
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Or was it like a, a subcommittee?
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Is that is a house.
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So House of Representatives.
4:34
Uh, right.
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Subcommittee of the House Natural Resources Committee.
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Um, So it's the, uh, energy and Minerals subcommittee.
4:41
Okay.
4:42
Okay, cool.
4:43
Well, I'll tell you, I was so proud to see you are one of three people.
4:46
Thank you.
4:46
Testifying.
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Uh, you know, about deep sea mining and, and you know, you like, there were two
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sort of industry players that were in there and we'll get into who they are.
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But then there was you who's, you know, I, I think it's funny you were, you
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were a true scientist in there because you were like playing the middle.
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You were like, look, I, like, I have my own opinions of it.
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But also I see both sides, and here's the technology and here's, you know,
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the, the, um, sort of here's the, the, the ethical side and the environmental
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side that I'm concerned about.
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And this is why I'm here.
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And I'm glad that they chose you to do that.
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Um, before we get into all of that conversation of how it came to be and
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how you felt throughout the time and how you feel now, um, can you just give
5:29
people an idea of who you are and what you do, just to remind them if they
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haven't, if they haven't met you before.
5:35
Absolutely, I'd be happy to.
5:37
So, I am Dr. Andrew Thaler.
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I am a deep sea ecologist, a conservation technologist, and an Ocean educator.
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Uh, and my work primarily focuses on how humans use technology to explore, exploit,
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protect, and plunder the deep oceans.
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Right on.
5:54
I love it.
5:55
Alright, let's, let's get right into it because know people who have,
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who've, who've seen you before.
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They know all about you.
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They know your history with deep sea mining, uh, and, and, and
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like deep sea ecology and, and your, I guess, relationship with
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deep sea mining throughout your career has been quite close.
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Um, you are a, an expert in, in looking at the issues around it, looking at the
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policy, looking at the environmental, uh, influence and, and what we
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might or might not expect from it.
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And you've been on the podcast a number of times.
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I can't even count any more of like how many times you've been on this podcast.
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It's been more than a few, bit more than a few.
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Uh, and, and, uh, I'll tell you like, it's, it's always interesting having you
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on to, to be able to talk about this.
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But let's just get to this, uh, committee meeting.
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How did it all come about?
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How did you get involved in this type of thing?
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How, and like, how does one get involved in this type of test of testifying?
6:47
So this was, um, the house put out an announcement that there would be a,
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uh, subcommittee hearing, uh, on the policy barriers to deep sea mining.
6:57
Right.
6:57
Uh, right now the US House of Remi representatives is
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controlled by the Republicans.
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So the Republicans are the ones who, who hosted the hearing.
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Uh, generally what happens is, um, the majority party gets to pick,
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uh, two or three witnesses, and the minority party gets to supply a single
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witness to, to testify on their side.
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So, okay.
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Uh, a similar hearing happened, uh, earlier this year.
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Uh, and I, I think we talked about it when that hearing happened as well.
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Yeah.
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It had many of the same, uh, people involved the two, I think the two
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deep sea mining CEOs were the same.
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Uh, And then it was, uh, Duncan Curry who was representing, or who
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was the witness for the Democrats.
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So I've been involved in deep sea mining policy as well as deep sea mining
7:44
environmental science for a long time.
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Um, you know, I'd like to say it's like, oh, it's, you know, my vast reputation
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and all the relationships I've built over time and all these other things.
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But the reality is, um, particularly for this hearing, I think the overwhelming
8:00
factor that got me into the hearing was, uh, there was no travel budget.
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And I live very close to DC And then probably the closest DC mining expert
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to the physical hearing room understood underst hey, which is not, it's all about
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location, location, location, right?
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Which is, you know, not, not to minimize any, like, it's an honor to be invited.
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It's, it was an incredible opportunity.
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An incredible experience.
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Um.
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But, you know, it was like the, the tone of the meeting and
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the setting of the meeting.
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I could have, I, there were other people I could have recommended as well.
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Um, but it was, it was a fast turnaround.
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They needed an expert who was local to, to DC and I was absolutely happy to
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represent the Deep Sea, represent the environment, and represent science in
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front of the US House of Representatives.
8:48
Perfect.
8:49
That's awesome.
8:50
Um, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's interesting when a committee
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meeting happens, uh, and, and of course your friends involved,
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you know, somebody who obviously you're, you're very well qualified.
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I know you said it's location, location, but you know, you're
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obviously a, a, a person that is, is perfect for that type of, of of work.
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Uh, when, when you were approached to do this, were you, uh, nervous?
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Like, did you, did you be like, I gotta brush up on some things?
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Like what, what was your reaction when you were like, oh, I'm, I'm doing this.
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So it was, um, I mean, it is, it's very nerve wracking.
9:23
Um, right.
9:24
You know, it is.
9:25
You know, not necessarily a, um, you know, when you're testifying in
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front of Congress, and especially when you're representing the minority
9:32
party, you don't expect it to be a particularly, uh, welcoming group.
9:36
Right.
9:36
Um, it's, it's generally an antagonistic hearing.
9:39
Um, I had been, uh, tapped as an alternate for an earlier hearing, so I had gone
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through some hearing prep before.
9:46
Okay.
9:46
So I sort of knew what the process was there, and there's, you know, we
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had about a week of warning, And so we did a week of prep for the hearing.
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Um, I, you know, I worked with the House Dems on my testimony.
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Um, I, we did a couple rounds of practice questions to really
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get into the field of things.
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And to be honest, the questions we did in the practice rounds were much, uh,
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harsher and more, uh, more challenging than the ones we actually had in
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the hearing, which I think helped.
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Helped immensely.
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Yeah, for sure.
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But no, absolutely.
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Going into, I mean, it's, it's the US Congress and it was my first
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time really testifying in front of.
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You know, the actual US Congress.
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So it's, it's, it's absolutely a nerve wracking experience.
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It's now, uh, five days in the past and I'm still coming down off
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the adrenaline high a little bit.
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Um, it was the rare sighting of, of Dr. Andrew Thaler in a suit, as you said.
10:33
Yeah.
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Which happens about three times a year.
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Lucky.
10:37
You're lucky.
10:37
I feel, if you're lucky, feel like every scientist has one suit.
10:40
Right.
10:40
And you use that suit.
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I'm all, I'm all about that.
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I have one suit that I use over and over.
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I, you know, I have worn chest waiters in December more than
10:48
I've worn a suit in 2025 and 2026.
10:52
Well, you're starting 2026 off strong.
10:53
'cause you've already worn won.
10:55
Right.
10:55
So you Absolutely.
10:57
That's awesome.
10:58
Um, okay, so, so.
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When you get there and you've gone through the prep, you know what to expect.
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You've seen how some of these play on like the, the deep sea mining ones.
11:08
Yeah.
11:08
Uh, who were you testifying with?
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Who were the, there, you said, you mentioned there were CEOs
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from the, basically the top mining, deep sea mining companies.
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There was the Metals company, I forget what the other companies.
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Can you just kind of give us a breakdown of each one of those?
11:20
Yeah.
11:20
So it was, uh, Gerard Barron from the Metals Company, who I've known
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for 15 years now, uh, at this point.
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Okay.
11:28
Um, I even did early environmental work on one of his older companies
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way, way back in the day.
11:34
Right.
11:34
Um, So, so we've, we go back a ways.
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Um, And then it was Oliver, uh, gun Sakara.
11:39
Uh, okay.
11:40
Who is Impossible Medals, who I think you've interacted with a few times.
11:44
And I know he Yes, yes.
11:45
On, on LinkedIn.
11:46
He's always like, lemme come on the show.
11:47
And I'm, one day, one day I, you know, he'd be a great interview.
11:51
Yeah.
11:51
He's, he, he, he, he is a nice guy.
11:53
He is very earnest.
11:54
He believes in what he is doing.
11:55
Um, right.
11:56
He'd be a great interview.
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Uh, you don't have to agree with everything he is doing to, of course.
11:59
Yeah.
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To appreciate the value of his work.
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Uh, And then there was also a third witness, which was Eric, uh, Milito, who,
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uh, was new to me, who is a lobbyist with, uh, one of the big, uh, offshore energy
12:12
development NGOs, Um, So he's primarily, uh, offshore oil and Nat gas, but also
12:17
offshore wind and offshore minerals, so.
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Gotcha.
12:20
He's kind of, he is a lobbyist for, for that industry.
12:23
Okay.
12:24
Now, you, you said you had relationship with, uh, Gerard Barron before.
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So what's that relationship like now?
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Is it like, you know, you guys, he knows, you know, each other.
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It is cordial.
12:35
You've, you've had con I assume a number of conversations with
12:38
him about deep sea mining.
12:40
You, I, I assume there's some things you agree on, there's some
12:42
things you agree to disagree.
12:44
Is that, how, is that how it works?
12:46
I mean, we're professionally cordial.
12:47
We, we know each other well.
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We worked with each other, other on multiple things when I was the editor in
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Chief of the Deep Sea Mining Observer.
12:53
Um, yeah, he was always a very forthcoming source when I needed to
12:57
talk with a representative from a mining company and get their opinions.
13:01
So, um, yeah, you know, we have a respectful, uh, cordial
13:04
professional relationship.
13:05
Yeah.
13:05
You know, we're not best friends, but No, no, of course not.
13:07
Yeah.
13:08
Yeah.
13:08
You don't have to be.
13:08
Yeah, no, I think it's just, but it was, you know, the surprising thing was like,
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um, you know, it's not like the witnesses are not a particularly antagonistic group.
13:15
Like we all know each other.
13:16
Right.
13:16
Yeah.
13:16
And like, it's a small, it's a small industry, it's a small community.
13:20
Um, yeah.
13:21
We've all had it out with our various positions on things and that's been
13:24
going on for a long time, so it's not like there were gonna be any
13:27
surprises in the hearing either.
13:29
Yeah.
13:30
Which I think is kind of nice too.
13:31
I think a lot of times we've been, uh, the viewers have been, uh, sort
13:37
of exposed to other, probably maybe larger like senate committees, I would
13:42
imagine, and even house committees that.
13:45
Are, are a little bit more controversial, uh, topics, you know?
13:49
Oh, yeah.
13:49
Uh, especially these days.
13:50
And you see, you know, congress members and, and senate members going
13:55
at it with the, with the, uh, with the witnesses and, and, and being
13:58
very harsh and, and things like that.
14:00
This is more of, was this more of a, so let's, let's, let's, let's
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kind of lay the situation down.
14:07
So there's been, um, at least two, uh, deep sea mining, um, I
14:15
guess inquiries or, or, or, or like a, a request for information.
14:18
Yeah.
14:18
So RFIs, RFIs, request for information.
14:21
Right.
14:21
So for Samoa as well as, uh, for the Mariana Islands,
14:25
and they've Mariana Islands.
14:27
Yep.
14:27
Yep.
14:27
The, the public periods have, like, the public common periods have actually
14:32
ended for both of those at this point.
14:34
Um, my understanding recently, like, like the last couple of days, there's
14:40
been another one that's been mm-hmm.
14:42
Uh, put out for, uh, Alaska.
14:44
Yeah.
14:45
And, and is it, is it, is there one put out for ver around Virginia too?
14:49
Like off the shores of Virginia?
14:50
So, so the current state is, um, we've had RFIs go out for American Samoa
14:56
and the Northern Mariana Islands.
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Those have opened and closed and received a tremendous amount of comments right from
15:02
the people of American Samoa, Guam and Northern Mariana Islands in particular.
15:07
Yeah.
15:07
There will be one going out for Alaska tomorrow is I tomorrow think when it will
15:12
be published to the Federal Register.
15:13
Okay.
15:14
So by time this is published, this, this will be, there'll be an RFI out for that.
15:18
Um, there was a press release about, uh, metal rich sands and
15:23
phosphates off the coast of Virginia.
15:25
Gotcha.
15:26
We've seen the press release.
15:27
There's no date for when there will be, uh, an RFI fit filed to the
15:31
Federal Register Um, So we don't know what is the status of that one
15:35
yet, and we'll have more clarity once, once they put out a formal RFI.
15:39
In addition to that, Noah has put out the new rules for expediting deep sea mining
15:45
permitting in the high Seas, which is areas beyond national jurisdiction, which
15:51
if you are a country who is a member state of the UN Convention of the Law of the
15:55
Sea, you can't mine without the consent of the International Seabed Authority.
15:58
The US is the one country that has a major economy that has not signed on
16:03
to the UN convention, the law, the sea.
16:05
So we're kind of going a little rogue there.
16:06
Yeah.
16:07
And that is, um, you know, I, I'm very comfortable saying I think that
16:10
is largely going to be an illegal move that is gonna be challenged
16:14
in court quite substantially.
16:15
I also think it's wildly unethical while the ISA is in the midst of
16:19
deliberating and negotiating how we're gonna parcel out these resources to say.
16:23
You know, forget, you guys we're just gonna do it ourselves.
16:27
Um, yeah.
16:28
And I have to admit, it boggles my mind that that's how it works.
16:33
So the members of unclothed, like the UN Law of the SEA Convention of
16:37
Law of the Sea, cannot mine in the high Seas because they are part,
16:43
it's part of that binding agreement.
16:46
They can't mind yet.
16:47
They're in the process of developing the rules.
16:49
Right.
16:50
So they're waiting for these rules to be developed before they
16:52
even think about doing anything.
16:54
But the ones who don't, the countries who don't sign can
16:59
do whatever the hell they want.
17:00
Yeah.
17:01
If they so desire, I feel like that's backwards in a way.
17:05
You know what I mean?
17:06
Like, not only is it backwards, but when this treaty was being negotiated,
17:11
and especially when the implementation agreement to create the International
17:16
Sea B Authority was being negotiated, it was negotiated in a way to be
17:20
extremely favorable to the United States.
17:23
Um, So the United States stands to benefit tremendously from joining the
17:29
UN Convention of the Law of the Sea.
17:30
Um, they immediate, if the UN ratifies the treaty I, not the un,
17:34
if the US ratifies the treaty, they immediately get a seat on the council.
17:37
They immediately get access to putting their experts on the
17:40
legal and technical commission.
17:42
They immediately get a tremendous amount of influence over the deliberations and
17:47
the US negotiated in good faith to get all those carve outs put in when the treaty
17:51
was live And then chose not to ratify.
17:55
And when was that, like when, when was the treaty like live?
17:58
When did that come in place?
17:59
Do you remember?
17:59
So it went into effect in 94.
18:02
That was the implementation agreement for the ISA.
18:04
The UN Convention of the Law of the Sea was in the eighties.
18:07
And it was Reagan who ultimately decided not to, uh, ratify the treaty.
18:13
And do we know why?
18:15
Do we have any idea?
18:16
I know it's a long time ago, and I don't know if you.
18:18
So there's, um, you know, there was, there was opposition to, uh, the
18:22
US kind of giving away what they perceived to be their resources.
18:26
Mm-hmm.
18:26
At the time the US was the major, uh, driver of deep sea mining.
18:30
Um mm-hmm.
18:31
We had most of the technology development, we had the at sea capacity.
18:35
Um, we were really running the show.
18:36
And so there was a perception that, you know, if we sign this treaty, we're
18:39
giving away an advantage that we have.
18:41
Turns out that advantage was largely artificial, especially in the eighties.
18:44
Mm-hmm.
18:45
Um, and that's, I think we've done a, a podcast on the Glomar Explorer
18:49
and Project Zoan and how that kind of borked the entire industry for 20 years.
18:54
Right.
18:55
Yeah.
18:56
But basically the financial estimates for the value of deep sea mining
18:59
in the seventies and eighties was.
19:01
Fabricated, and it was fabricated as part of a, a government front to
19:05
recover some Soviet nuclear submarine.
19:08
Uh, it's hard, it's hard to talk about that without sounding like a crazy
19:12
conspiracy theorist, but it Right.
19:13
Largely the case that, yeah, the early moves towards deep sea mining
19:18
only happened because they had so much support from the federal
19:22
government for clandestine operations.
19:24
Yeah.
19:24
Well, and I mean, like, that was the like, height of the
19:27
cold war too, in the eighties.
19:28
Oh, absolutely.
19:29
You know, it was, it was, uh, there were some things that
19:31
were happening, so, um, yeah.
19:34
Inter Interesting.
19:35
Yeah.
19:35
Okay.
19:36
So that's where we're at.
19:37
This, so this committee hearing happens.
19:41
Uh, is this part of the, a regular process?
19:44
Like, I'll be honest, I'm surprised Republicans want to have a hearing in
19:48
general just because I, you know, they haven't come out, you know, they've
19:53
come out publicly say they, they want this obviously by putting out the RFIs.
19:56
Yeah.
19:56
But you know, you have seen, well, in addition to the RFIs,
19:58
there's also an executive order.
20:00
An executive order.
20:01
Yeah.
20:01
Uh, uh, I, I think the motivation for the hearing was that, um, you
20:06
know, the timeline that was set by the executive order was coming up.
20:09
Mm-hmm.
20:10
And they needed to get some statements on the record about, you know, what
20:14
are the permitting and policy hurdles to getting this done in the us Gotcha.
20:18
What are the potential implications?
20:21
Um, and this was, you know, because it was a Republican sponsored
20:25
hearing, it almost certainly the goal was to help promote the industry
20:28
ahead of the new rules coming out.
20:30
Gotcha.
20:31
Um, and to get some of the industry representatives on the record talking
20:34
about the value that they're going to be providing to the United States economy
20:38
and to our, you know, alleged need for, for these specific critical minerals.
20:43
Um, And so having the opportunity to be kind of the one voice that gets
20:47
to push back on that was, you know, a lonely opportunity, but a nice one.
20:53
I'm not, you know, I'm not often the only one in the room that's, that's
20:57
arguing for the environment, but, and of course the, the democrats
21:00
in the committee were of course arguing for the environment as well.
21:02
And especially, um, one of the nice things that happened is that the, um, the chair
21:08
of the committee let the representatives from Guam and American Samoa and, uh,
21:12
the CNMI wave in which, Yeah, nice.
21:16
US territories elect congresspeople.
21:19
They each get won.
21:20
Uh, they're allowed to go to Congress.
21:22
They are, uh, allowed to participate in the hearings.
21:24
They're allowed to ask questions.
21:26
They're allowed to address Congress.
21:27
They don't have voting authority.
21:29
Gotcha Um, So really their one ability to represent, uh, their constituents is in
21:35
these kinds of hearings where they can ask questions relevant to their constituencies
21:39
and bring that information back.
21:40
So having the ability to bring in, uh, those representatives and let them
21:45
speak for the people who will be most directly affected by deep sea mining and
21:49
US waters, I think was really important and really a valuable thing to have.
21:52
Absolutely.
21:53
I know it was a pretty powerful message, what they said.
21:56
We will talk about it in a second.
21:58
So, so you're, you're, you're kind of surrounded by these other, uh, three guys.
22:02
Three guys who are, who are sitting up there and they're, they're testifying,
22:05
they're everybody's asking questions.
22:07
So you had the committee members asking questions.
22:10
Um, overall, how do you feel it went in terms of giving information, uh,
22:18
for, for deep sea mining in, in the us?
22:22
So, um, you know, how it went is kind of.
22:27
You know, I don't have any illusions that this hearing is going to
22:30
reshape the current administration's priorities on deep sea mining or,
22:34
you know, uh, change the hearts of, of the Republicans on the committee.
22:39
Um, uh, I think what's important is that, uh, it's on the congressional record,
22:44
uh, what the environmental impacts are.
22:47
It's on the congressional record that these are some of the limitations.
22:50
Um, and it's laying the groundwork for, you know, if there is a, a
22:54
change in power in US Congress, which likely will happen in in 2028.
22:59
Um, you know, if normal political tides behave like normal political
23:03
sides do, for those who are listening on audio, I'm crossing my fingers.
23:06
Yeah.
23:06
And my toes like everything's being crossed.
23:08
Yes.
23:09
Yeah.
23:09
I mean, generally speaking, party, party and power in Congress shifts
23:13
halfway through a presidential term.
23:15
Who knows what will actually happen during this presidential
23:18
term, but you know, right.
23:20
Assuming that the Democrats take control, we've, we've laid some groundwork
23:24
for, uh, where, uh, we feel that there is, um, you know, weaknesses in the
23:30
permitting process and weaknesses in the development of the industry.
23:33
Um, and, you know, the industry's not ready to mine today anyway.
23:36
No.
23:37
Like, you know, the, the earliest timeline I heard, uh, came from the metals company.
23:41
They said they could be ready to mine in two years.
23:43
I think that's very optimistic.
23:45
And I think even if they are ready to mine in two years, them going after the Clarion
23:49
Clipper and zone, the high Seas areas beyond national jurisdiction means that,
23:54
you know, even if they attempt to mine, they're, they're gonna be faced with a
23:56
lot of legal hurdles before that happens.
23:58
Oh, I'm sure.
23:59
Um, and, you know, these are, all of these are international companies
24:02
with, you know, international supply chains, international logistics.
24:06
Like the ship is is based in the Netherlands, I think.
24:10
Yeah.
24:10
One of the, one of the Nordic, the ship's based in the Netherlands.
24:12
I think it's owned by a, a Swiss company.
24:15
Like they'll flag it in the us but like.
24:18
They have partners that are, uh, housed in countries that are, uh, ISA member states.
24:23
I mean, they, their, their main company is Canada, which, you know, great.
24:29
The, what, what do you say?
24:30
The, the, the big north wild and free Great North Wild and Free Yeah.
24:33
Yeah.
24:33
Yeah.
24:33
Yeah, that's true.
24:34
North.
24:34
Strong and free.
24:35
Yeah, true.
24:35
North strong free.
24:36
Sorry, Yeah.
24:37
Yeah.
24:37
So, you know, Canada is a member state, so there will be, you know, they
24:40
will face legal challenges for sure.
24:42
Yeah.
24:42
Whether or not they'll prevail, you know, kind of defend Yeah.
24:45
Depends on the prevailing winds and, and the, the legal arguments being made.
24:49
But like, I don't, don't, it also takes time.
24:51
It takes time.
24:52
I don't think two years is a realistic framework for No.
24:55
Anyone being able to, to mine at a commercial scale.
24:57
Right.
24:57
I think that it's very likely we'll see, uh, the first of the experimental,
25:02
uh, deep sea mining test operations that are done not at full commercial
25:07
scale, but are done at a much larger scale than what we've seen before.
25:10
Um, And so I think it's very important to have the environmental issues.
25:14
In the records and to have dialogues going with these companies about,
25:19
you know, what, what we think would be an appropriate way to truly
25:22
assess the environmental impacts.
25:24
Um, and we've done several, several podcasts on the environmental impacts.
25:27
I think, you know, for this one we can talk more about, like, some
25:30
of the other big issues, including the stakeholders, the people who
25:34
are directly impacted by this.
25:35
Because, you know, the one thing I think few people appreciate is that
25:39
like these deep sea mining sites don't happen in the middle of nowhere.
25:43
Like they're happening in US territories where there are islands that are
25:49
populated, uh, with people who have tremendous cultural and personal ties
25:55
to the Ocean and who have historically felt like they've been excluded from
26:00
these decision making processes.
26:02
So when the RFIs for American Samoa and the CNMI went out, you know,
26:06
they were met with overwhelming and overwhelmingly bipartisan opposition
26:10
to proposals to start deep sea mining.
26:13
Um, you know, the, the, the, the Pacific Territories are largely Republican.
26:18
I think American Samoa has a Republican governor, the CNMI
26:21
has a Republican governor.
26:22
Um, American Samoa sends more, um, citizens into the US military than
26:27
any other, uh, region per capita.
26:30
Um, really, I was not to say state, but you know, because we have, yeah.
26:33
Than any state or territory per capita.
26:35
American Samoa sends more people to fight for the United States.
26:38
Um, and, you know, there, there is a, a deep and complex history, especially
26:43
with the Pacific Islands, uh, with uh, not just colonialism, but with a
26:48
perception of the United States as in some ways and in some places a liberator.
26:52
So, yeah.
26:53
Um, 'cause the US came in during World War II and.
26:57
You know, a lot of these places were, you know, the Mariana Islands are
27:00
called the Mariana Islands because Spain said these are ours and we're
27:03
gonna name 'em after Queen Mariana.
27:06
Jeez.
27:07
Um, yeah, I didn't know that.
27:09
So people have, that's crazy.
27:09
You know, it's, it's this, it's this fascinating, you know, it's this complex
27:13
interaction between Pacific identity and also like complicated feelings
27:18
towards the United States that aren't always what you might expect them to be.
27:25
Yeah.
27:25
It's, it's interesting.
27:26
I've always, my, my argument's always been, you know, the territory
27:29
should have statehood, and if we do all six of them at once, I think
27:33
that's the best possible outcome.
27:34
Oh yeah.
27:34
Because it almost, it gives a balance because if you do all six
27:39
territories at once, my, uh, my guess is very strongly, three of them
27:42
will lean pretty heavily Republican.
27:44
Three of them will lean Yeah.
27:45
Very heavily Democrat.
27:46
And so it won't immediately upset the balance in a way that
27:49
say like, yeah, we'll give, you know, statehood to DC and Puerto.
27:54
Right, right.
27:55
Because it's, you know, Washington, DC, Puerto Rico, us Virgin Islands
27:59
would, would probably, if they got statehood, um, lean, fairly Democrat.
28:04
Yeah.
28:04
Um, and the, the Pacific ones would, would likely lean fairly
28:07
Republican at least re for the moment.
28:09
Yeah.
28:09
Although, we'll see what happens if, if someone starts mining their waters.
28:13
Yeah.
28:14
'cause like, my understanding is from the, the comments that were provided in, in
28:20
the American Samoa and the Marion Islands, they were largely against the mining.
28:25
Oh yes.
28:25
The deep sea mining.
28:26
Right.
28:26
Extremely against, extremely against 95, 90 6% of the
28:30
comments coming from the island.
28:31
Yeah.
28:31
And, and Guam isn't even like, I think they've passed laws, like
28:34
they're not even considering it.
28:36
Right.
28:36
Like, they're just like, it's, it's over.
28:38
Like they're, they're so Guam and American Samoa have, um, bans on deep
28:43
sea mining in their waters, but as territories, they only control their
28:47
territorial waters out to 12 miles.
28:50
Ah, the exclusive economic zone that stretches out 200 miles Yeah.
28:54
Yeah.
28:54
So that 12 mile to 200 mile zone is federal waters.
28:58
Right.
28:58
And so the federal government can do what it it wants.
29:02
That's a lot.
29:02
Water.
29:02
Yes.
29:02
It's a ton of water.
29:03
It's a lot of water.
29:03
Yeah.
29:04
Yeah.
29:04
Yeah.
29:05
Interesting.
29:06
Okay.
29:06
So, so the, like, talk to me about some of the questions that were asked, like, what
29:11
stood out for you during this session?
29:14
Because it was, it was a fairly long session.
29:16
It was about two hours.
29:17
About two hours.
29:18
Two hours, yeah.
29:18
Um, talk to me about some of the questions that stood out to you that, that maybe
29:23
even surprised you at times, um, that were asked that you were just like, oh, okay.
29:28
Like, we're gonna have to answer this.
29:30
Or even some of the answers that were given too.
29:31
Yeah.
29:32
So the question I got that, that surprised me the most, because, you
29:35
know, if you watched, I was not the main person being, being grilled.
29:39
Um, a lot of the objectives of the Democrats were to get mining
29:43
CEOs on the record about specific initiatives that they had.
29:46
So, um, I got.
29:48
The, the questions you would expect from the Democrats about what
29:51
are the environmental impacts?
29:52
Can you monitor this?
29:54
Who can monitor this?
29:55
Yes.
29:55
Um, and I think that was a really important one because the answer to who's
29:59
gonna monitor this, who has the capacity to monitor this right now, is the mining
30:02
companies, the only people really, you have the capacity to do environmental
30:06
monitoring of deep sea mining site is a company doing deep sea mining.
30:10
And in fact, right now, even the federal government doesn't have the
30:12
capacity because we fired, you know, 25% of the workforce Um, So there is a
30:18
tremendous deficit of capacity within the federal government, within the
30:21
regulatory agencies to do the kind of monitoring that would be necessary.
30:25
And so it requires really tight partnerships with the mining companies,
30:29
which, you know, depending on who the mining companies are and how you feel
30:33
their relationships are, and how you, you feel, whether or not they're operating
30:37
in, um, you know, they're, they're coming from a, a good faith, uh, position.
30:42
Um, you know, some people may be very opposed to saying, we can't let.
30:46
The, the people doing the exploitation also do the monitoring.
30:48
Of course we have to have some way to, to balance that against something else.
30:52
Yeah.
30:52
Um, you know, the, the, the one curve ball question I got, 'cause you know,
30:57
with the, with the Democrats on the, on the hearing, I knew what questions
31:00
they were gonna ask me ahead of time.
31:01
Yeah.
31:01
'cause Yeah.
31:01
Yeah.
31:02
They told you.
31:02
We rehearsed and we talked about it and they discussed it and they said what they
31:05
wanted to have on, on the record, Um, So with, um, the, the curve ball questions
31:12
came from the Republicans and the one that I thought was really interesting
31:14
and, and a little bit surprising was from, uh, Congressman Bagge, uh, from Alaska.
31:19
So he is Alaska's Republican Congressman, uh, congressman at large.
31:23
'cause Alaska gets one.
31:24
Um, 'cause they don't have a lot of people.
31:26
Right.
31:26
Um, and he asked, you know, what, what thresholds would you need to see in order
31:33
to, to let deep sea mining progress?
31:36
Um, and that's, that's, yeah, I, I appreciate that kind of question because
31:39
now we're thinking about this in terms of.
31:42
You know, what do we really believe are acceptable environmental
31:45
impacts with deep sea mining?
31:46
What do we really, you know, what kinds of studies would we
31:49
actually need to see to get there?
31:51
Because right now we get studies from the mining companies and they
31:54
decide to measure their impacts.
31:56
And you know, you'll see a lot of them saying, oh look, we, we did a plume study.
32:00
And it showed that the, the impact of the, the plume is only like immediately
32:04
around the site that's directly being mined and it doesn't spread.
32:07
And then you dig into the details And then you realize they're only
32:09
talking about the benthic plume.
32:11
They're not talking about the midwater plume, they're not talking
32:14
about accidental surface discharge.
32:15
Um, and when they're looking at the chemistry, they're not talking about
32:18
the dewatering plume, they're talking about the plume produced when you
32:22
literally pick a rock off the sea floor.
32:24
And so, like, you know, while they're driving the show, you know, and I, I
32:29
don't wanna say that their environmental studies are suspect because they
32:32
do good environmental work and they work with good scientists too.
32:35
But the environmental studies are geared towards, uh, a positive outcome.
32:40
And, you know, as a scientist, my goal is always to disprove
32:43
my own hypothesis, right?
32:44
And so if you're going in with the hypothesis, there's not gonna be any harm.
32:48
You're like, you need to, you need to be designing your studies to,
32:52
to really reflect what maximal harm would actually look like.
32:56
Um, yeah.
32:56
And I think that's where, you know, that's where having the ability to do
33:00
independent studies, um, to work with Bo and with Bessie, which it is the,
33:05
the federal agency is called Bessie.
33:07
Um, it's, it's fantastic.
33:09
It's a great name for the, the one of the regulatory agencies that oversees mineral
33:13
extraction in, in the Ocean, um, right.
33:16
But to have those be designed not by the mining company.
33:20
But by the regulators to say, okay, this is, we've worked
33:24
with our scientific experts.
33:26
'cause the US has a tremendous amount of scientific expertise on the deep sea.
33:29
You know, we've worked with our US scientific experts, um,
33:32
they've defined what they believe to be critical thresholds.
33:35
We've designed the experiment.
33:37
You go out and do it and we will review it.
33:40
And I think that's the kind of thing we need to start seeing.
33:42
Um, studies designed by independent, uh, regulatory agencies that are then
33:49
conducted by the mining companies.
33:50
'cause they're the only ones who can really afford to do them.
33:53
One of the questions I had when you, when you were talking about, you
33:57
know, the different types of, of like scientists doing the work and doing the
34:01
impact assessments and environmental assessments as well as, you know,
34:05
during the operations, uh, having the mining companies look after it.
34:09
Like, I've worked as an environmental consultant before, you know, a
34:12
lot of times I know how they work.
34:13
They usually hire an outside consulting firm.
34:15
The outside consulting firm will have a, hopefully a good reputation.
34:19
They will do the, the work And then, you know, it gets scrutinized, but
34:23
it's based on science and Right.
34:24
And, and a lot of information and, And so forth.
34:27
And the government kind of looks through it and makes sure that it's
34:29
done properly And then they, they do it.
34:30
And, and if, if people don't think it's done properly, we've seen
34:33
this in the oil and gas industry.
34:35
Then environmental NGOs will actually sue to make sure that they do a proper job.
34:39
Yes, we saw that in the North slope and, and that worked and,
34:42
and although it's a lot of work, it doesn't happen often, but although
34:45
it's a lot of work, it does happen.
34:47
And in that case, they were, uh, the environmental consultants or the
34:49
environmental NGOs were very, uh, successful in, in stopping that without
34:53
a better environmental impact assessment.
34:56
But when we talk about the actual operation of the work, like I remember
35:00
working as an, uh, an environmental consultant with seismic survey.
35:04
I was actually like a Marine mammal observer on the ships in the Arctic.
35:07
And so, you know, we were looking at whales when they were coming in.
35:11
You know, if they came in within a certain distance, we had to shut
35:13
down the instrumentation right.
35:14
And, And so forth.
35:15
So we had, we were representing the government on that.
35:18
We were being paid by the companies, but we were representing the government
35:22
and, you know, we were making sure that everything was done properly.
35:26
If fisheries that happens to where you have fisheries observers on board, are
35:29
there such thing as, and, and I know this industry's fairly new and hasn't
35:33
really been done, are there such thing as, you know, deep sea mining observers
35:37
to make sure that everything is done properly, to make sure there's, if there's
35:40
a, a spill or something going wrong, like how and how does that even work?
35:44
Because fisheries observers will come on and when the fish are coming on the
35:47
boat, they count them, they make sure everything's fine and blah, blah, blah.
35:50
When you're doing Marine mammals reserving, you can
35:52
actually see the whales.
35:53
You look at binoculars, there's actually a scientific process through that.
35:56
Do you see mining you can't see underneath, especially that, that deep.
36:01
Is that possible?
36:02
Has that been discussed at all?
36:04
Uh, did it come up during the, during the hearing?
36:07
So it did come up during the hearing.
36:08
Um, and I think, you know, the answer to that is that, um, there are not
36:13
deep sea mining observers yet, although observer gets to be a very confusing
36:17
term because it's also the term used for the organizations at the ISA that
36:21
aren't, uh, representing countries.
36:23
Mm-hmm.
36:23
Uh, and it's also the name of the trade journal that I used to run.
36:26
So there's like DC Body Observer, so there's like four different
36:29
things that are called observers in the deep sea mining world.
36:32
Might have to change the, that, the, the name.
36:34
But, uh, regulatory observers, I think, I think it'll be absolutely
36:37
necessary to have people on the boats.
36:39
Yeah.
36:39
Okay.
36:39
Uh, monitoring and that, you know, that can get hairy because, you know, you're,
36:43
you're alone in the middle of the Ocean.
36:44
We've seen it with fisheries observers where they can get in a lot of
36:46
trouble if something goes wrong.
36:48
Yeah.
36:48
And when we're talking about, you know, the potential to shut down, you know,
36:53
millions or potentially billions of dollars of, of ore coming on board, like.
36:58
Things can get hairy for people.
37:00
So having, having that program in place in a way that's reliable and can build trust,
37:04
I think is gonna be absolutely essential.
37:07
Um, you know, thing, there are things they can do, like they can
37:09
live stream the RV feed from the mining tool and from the machines
37:13
that are observing the mining tool.
37:14
So Right.
37:15
Those are live stream to the cloud will be able to, to
37:18
watch in real time from mm-hmm.
37:19
Uh, other locations, but like, you know, if things get
37:22
hairy, you can turn those off.
37:24
Um, yep.
37:24
That's certainly not, and they do with GPS all the time.
37:27
Absolutely.
37:27
With fisheries, absolutely.
37:27
Turn off their is s and fisheries all the time.
37:29
Yeah.
37:30
Yeah.
37:30
Um, but in terms of like that actual observation capacity, oh, and also
37:35
with the Marine mammals, like, you know, I just finished that big
37:38
report on highly migratory species.
37:39
Yeah.
37:39
We had John for that.
37:40
I think they will have to have, you know, Marine mammal
37:42
observers on the boat as well.
37:44
Um, and that, you know, that's raised an interesting question and a
37:46
conversation I've had with, with other representatives from, from the deep
37:49
sea mining world of like, you know what, what's gonna happen when there's
37:54
a situation that mandates an all stop?
37:56
Yeah.
37:57
Um, because, you know, the reality of the deep Ocean is that we
38:02
have explored almost none of it.
38:04
Um, less than 1% has been observed.
38:07
At almost every time we go down as scientists, we discover something new and,
38:13
you know, to the tune of about once every decade we discover something entirely new.
38:17
That was completely unexpected.
38:18
You know, we found hydrothermal vent, then we found cold seeps, then we
38:22
found whale falls and wood falls and all these other kind of food falls.
38:25
Um, very recently, a a Chinese research team found the deepest
38:29
chemosynthetic ecosystems.
38:30
It's this, it's this deep, uh, worm colony that's, that's existing off
38:35
of hydrocarbons at like six or seven or 8,000 meters Um, So we find new
38:40
things all the time, and there is absolutely gonna be a situation in
38:43
deep sea mining if it progresses at commercial scale and becomes the largest
38:47
observer of the sea floor in history.
38:49
Um, you know, one year of a deep sea mining operation will observe more of
38:52
the sea floor than the entirety of the last 150 years of scientific exploration.
38:58
Um, they're gonna find something new and they're gonna find something novel.
39:01
Like, it's, it's guaranteed that you're gonna, you're gonna stumble upon a new
39:04
ecosystem that we probably haven't even begun to imagine yet, because we keep
39:08
getting surprised from the deep sea.
39:10
Um, how do you trigger an all stop in that kit situation?
39:13
Like, how do we get to a point where you're like, Hey guys,
39:16
this is like hydrothermal vent level discovery right here.
39:21
Uh, you have to stop and now we have to spend the next 30
39:24
years studying this thing.
39:26
Mm-hmm.
39:26
Um, mm-hmm.
39:27
I, you know, I can guarantee that is going to, like, if deep sea mining
39:30
progresses at full commercial scale, it's almost guaranteed that that's
39:33
at least gonna happen once, probably twice, probably once a decade for
39:38
the entire operation of the industry.
39:39
And we need to have like a plan in place for what do we do when
39:42
they're, 'cause now we have the bb and j treaty as well, the high Seas.
39:45
Yeah.
39:46
That defines Marine genetic resources and, you know.
39:49
The Marine genetic resources that we've discovered from deep sea hydrothermal
39:53
vents and the economic value that has come directly from that one discovery
39:58
vastly dwarfs any prediction for the total value of the deep sea mining industry.
40:03
So there is a real economic conflict between Marine genetic resources
40:07
of the deep sea and the potential value of war from deep sea mining.
40:10
And like they're gonna stumble on a new cool ecosystem because
40:15
we do it all the time because the deep sea is full of amazing stuff.
40:18
Uh, Yeah.
40:19
And it surprises us very frequently.
40:21
And so figuring out how we handle that moment, I think is the next
40:26
big conversation we need to have as a deep sea mining community.
40:29
Yeah.
40:29
As a community of practitioners working for or against, or with or in the
40:33
development of best practices, uh mm-hmm.
40:36
Or however you want to parse your role within deep sea mining, I think that's
40:39
a conversation that needs to be had.
40:40
Yeah.
40:41
Yeah.
40:41
And, and even thinking like, not even just unique habitats that are
40:44
stationary that we come across, but also the connectivity of the Deep sea.
40:50
Absolutely.
40:50
We did an episode with Ocean Networks Canada recently, where they were
40:54
talking about volcanic activity on underneath the, in the deep sea,
40:57
like basically underneath the water.
40:59
And how that's the pillars of smoke would go across the Pacific.
41:03
Mm-hmm.
41:03
Absolutely.
41:04
We still don't know what value or, or you know, desecration that
41:08
brings, you know, across the deep sea, but it's there for a reason.
41:11
It's, it's happening.
41:13
And what if you come across like a plume of smoke that comes in every
41:16
once in a while and it, it disrupts it somehow, or it, it causes it problems.
41:21
And that is a, is a, a key ecological function or a key
41:25
geophysical function that we do not know anything about at this time.
41:29
Right.
41:29
You know, we just know that it goes somewhere.
41:31
We don't know where it ends up.
41:32
We don't know how far it goes.
41:33
And, And so I think there's so much there, there's so many
41:36
unknowns in, in the deep sea.
41:40
I think we're starting to discover more and more and, and I, you know, I, I
41:45
talked to you before we, we, we did this, uh, interview before we pressed record.
41:49
Uh, you know, I, beyond Jaws, we just did an interview, which would probably
41:52
be published by the time we published this episode, uh, where we looked at the,
41:57
uh, you know, where, where they looked at like deep sea rubs, stereo rubs.
42:01
Oh, yeah.
42:01
Where they could, you know, look at what species are down there, like
42:04
down at 900 meters plus, and, you know, measure how long they are.
42:08
And we will be discovering new species, or species that
42:11
haven't been seen in a long time.
42:13
Uh, it's, it's gonna be incredible.
42:15
You just said two months ago there was a new mm-hmm.
42:18
Uh, was it squid?
42:19
That was just, uh, that was deep sea squid.
42:21
Oh, the, the stalker squid.
42:22
Yes.
42:22
The stalker squid.
42:23
Yeah.
42:23
So there, there's a deep sea squid that, that hangs out in nodule fields.
42:26
It varies itself.
42:27
Nodule field itself.
42:28
Yeah.
42:28
It buried, well it was discovered in, in, in a, in a nodule field survey.
42:32
Yeah.
42:32
To look at the potential value for these resources.
42:34
And it varies itself in nodule fields.
42:37
Hangs two of its tentacles out and it just kind of waits to, to ambush its prey.
42:41
Yeah.
42:42
And we have no idea how that is going.
42:44
Like if we, if we start grabbing some or that animal gets affected, we have
42:48
no idea what that's like, what that's gonna happen, and all the other animals
42:52
that are doing things like this that are in those fields, uh, that are there.
42:55
So I, I think it's, it's just really interesting.
42:57
So bringing it back to the hearing, with all this stuff coming up
43:03
and known, how did like the two CEOs, like the two industry
43:07
people, uh, react to any of those?
43:10
Or how did they discuss those?
43:11
Or were they asked those in the questions?
43:13
Like, what, you know, we're talking about thresholds here.
43:17
What was their threshold to be like, what are we expecting or what
43:21
are we, uh, looking to say, Hey, you know what, we're okay with.
43:25
Doing this much damage.
43:27
So they weren't, um, I don't recall if they were actually asked about thresholds.
43:30
This was pretty close to the end of the hearing was year.
43:33
Yeah.
43:33
Right.
43:33
And everyone has, everyone, all the congressmen have a limited
43:36
amount of time to ask questions.
43:38
Gotcha.
43:38
And so people were really dialed into their specific things.
43:41
The mining company CEOs were primarily talking about the permitting process,
43:45
the value to the US economy, um, their specific technologies and, you know,
43:50
the, the, um, steps they're taking to mitigate some environmental harm.
43:54
Although they didn't spend a ton of time talking about environmental work because
43:57
No, the focus of the hearing itself was not particularly on the environment.
44:00
It was more on Right.
44:02
The permitting and the, um, the regulatory process.
44:05
And you know a lot about, you know, stakeholder opinions.
44:09
And making sure that the Pacific Islands are well represented.
44:12
And they were, they were grilled a bit about some comments they had made
44:15
about, uh, the Pacific Islands, that that revealed a little bit of naivety
44:20
about Yeah, the politics of the Pacific and how that's all gonna function.
44:23
But, um, you know, I think on that front, it's gonna be a learning
44:27
experience for these mining companies as they get more and more involved
44:30
in, uh, Pacific Island politics.
44:32
Um, yeah, it seems like they, they don't really, I don't know if it's not
44:37
taking it seriously or just kind of uh, well, I think it's a lack of awareness.
44:41
Think it's, I think that's what it is.
44:42
Yeah.
44:42
Well, you know, they're, you know, it's a deep sea mining, a very
44:45
technical operation, uh mm-hmm.
44:47
And a lot of the people who are kind of at the forefront are technology people.
44:52
They're really excited about the robotics.
44:54
They're really excited about the potential of the, or they're
44:56
really excited about the logistical challenges, those kinds of things.
44:59
And they're not necessarily the people who are thinking about, you know, the politics
45:03
and the getting the social licens.
45:06
And, you know, making sure that you are making the cultural connections
45:10
you need in order to get, uh, support from the communities you're working in.
45:14
And not like, I don't expect any mining company to get a hundred percent support
45:17
from any community they're working in, but there has to at least be, you
45:21
know, a level of mutual respect between the communities they're working in and
45:25
the mining company that is reflected in, you know, day-to-day operations.
45:28
You know, if, if you have a mining operation off the coast of American Samoa,
45:32
you've gotta use American Samoan airports.
45:34
You are using their hotels.
45:35
Yeah.
45:35
You're getting their rental cars, you are using their ports, you know?
45:38
Mm-hmm.
45:39
The people loading and unloading the boats are from American Samoa.
45:42
Like your employees, when they have downtime between, you know, duty
45:46
shifts are gonna be, you know mm-hmm.
45:48
Recreating an American Samoa, like, if you don't have at least at some
45:51
level of mutual respect within the community, that becomes really
45:55
expensive and really challenging and.
45:57
Also very demoralizing.
45:59
'cause you know, yeah.
46:00
You know, imagine you're on a two week on, two week off stint on a mining ship,
46:04
and the two weeks you're spending in American Samoa, everyone just hates you.
46:07
Oh yeah.
46:08
You're wondering if every time you go out to eat someone's spitting in your food.
46:11
Like you, you can't operate like that.
46:13
And that, you know, crushes your, your employee enthusiasm.
46:16
So when you see like 95% opposition to the development of the industry, you
46:20
have to take a step back and be like, we need to do community building before
46:25
we send our robots down, you know?
46:28
Absolutely.
46:28
Absolutely.
46:29
And I, I think that's necessary.
46:30
Now, do you think from that hearing, uh, I know you said it's more informational
46:36
than anything else, and it's building on it, do you think, uh, the, the,
46:40
the, uh, Republicans on the committee are going to take that seriously?
46:44
Do you think that's a, a possibility that they'll look at that and be
46:46
like, Hey, maybe we should pump the brakes a little bit and, and let's
46:50
do some more community building.
46:53
Um, I don't think there's gonna be a pump that breaks, um,
46:56
with this, with this Congress.
46:58
Um, you know, I do think that there was recognition that the,
47:01
the representatives coming from the Pacific Islands were also Republicans.
47:04
Yeah, I noticed that.
47:04
Yeah.
47:05
And so, you know, the opposition is coming from within their own
47:08
party and I think, you know, to some extent they have to respect that.
47:13
But, you know, the reality on the ground is one, there's so many years before
47:18
the mining's actually gonna begin that.
47:20
I think it's like kind of a secondary issue at the moment.
47:23
Mm-hmm.
47:24
And two, there's such a desire to get this industry moving because
47:29
I think the industry itself is in a race against time too.
47:32
Um, So there's this desire to get the industry moving as quickly as possible.
47:35
Um, for one, because there, there's this perception that we have to beat China at
47:41
critical minerals, and especially with deep sea mining, despite the fact that
47:45
polymetallic nodules, we're only talking about cobalt, nickel, and manganese.
47:49
Um, right.
47:49
Which are all minerals that we get from our allies.
47:53
Um, right.
47:54
And also we don't have any refining capacity for these nodules anywhere.
47:58
So even if we're somewhere else, even if we're harvesting them, no.
48:01
Like we, the collective planetary, we Oh, like humans at the moment,
48:05
there's no fin, like there are lots of proposals to build refining capacity.
48:09
Yeah.
48:09
Um, you know, there's no point in, in developing this further
48:13
if, if the refineries are just gonna be in China again.
48:16
Um mm-hmm.
48:16
Because, but you know, there's no, there's certainly no US capacity
48:20
to refine these metals yet.
48:21
Um, And then what do these refineries look like compared to like, you know,
48:24
I, I'm thinking oil and gas refineries, chemical alley and things like that.
48:28
Like, is that.
48:29
Is it gonna be similar to like the, like the types of outputs in terms of, of, to
48:35
extract the metals from these nodules?
48:38
So my, my expertise ends at the, at the shore.
48:40
Okay.
48:41
Um, gotcha.
48:42
You know, I've seen some proposals for, for what some of the refineries
48:45
look like, and, you know, they, they are next generation refineries too.
48:47
Like, they're not like giant oil derricks, you know?
48:50
Right, right.
48:51
But, um, uh, we just, we don't have them in the US right now.
48:55
So even if you look at a lot of the, um, the proposals coming out and the responses
48:58
to the RFIs from the mining companies, they're talking about stockpiling.
49:02
And one of the points I made in my testimony is, you know, the
49:04
cheapest place to stockpile these is to leave them on the sea floor.
49:07
Like if we don't, if we don't have the capacity to, don't move, if we don't have
49:10
the capacity to process 'em yet, they're not, these metals aren't entering the,
49:13
the commodity supply chain anytime soon.
49:16
Right.
49:16
Um, why don't we get the refining capacity up first, and why don't we
49:21
develop the refining capacity that can also take advantage of existing
49:25
sources of these metals within the us.
49:27
Mm-hmm.
49:27
There's been some studies that have come out.
49:29
That show that we can meet almost a hundred percent of our critical
49:32
metals needs by, um, looking at the byproducts from existing mines.
49:38
So metals that have already been mined.
49:40
Um, the mining tailings, the mining waste, the environmental impact that
49:43
has already happened, that has, you know, the damage has already been done.
49:47
Mm-hmm.
49:47
Going back into those tailings and maximizing the amount of
49:51
metals we get out of Yeah.
49:52
The harm we've already caused before we begin exploring a new frontier.
49:57
And what's the response to the industry when they, when, when
49:59
you bring that kind of stuff up.
50:01
Oh, it's too complex.
50:03
But deep sea mining is, is almost certainly one of the most
50:06
complicated industries Yeah.
50:08
Uh, that we've ever conceived of.
50:09
And it's taken us 70 years to get to this point without producing a
50:12
single ounce of commercial or so.
50:14
It's all complex.
50:15
It's all complex.
50:16
If you're not willing to dive into something complicated, then you're
50:18
in the wrong industry, you know?
50:19
Exactly.
50:21
Now, one thing that I, I, and you kind of reminded me just by mentioning it, that
50:25
came up a lot, and I know with the way geopolitics is kind of, uh, stemming out
50:30
for the US and the world, uh, the country, China came up a lot in this hearing.
50:35
Yes.
50:35
I was surprised, uh, to hear it.
50:37
Surprised and not surprised.
50:39
I wasn't expecting it to be mentioned that much, but it seems like a bit of a race,
50:43
uh, because like they're saying, China's already doing this, China's already
50:48
ready to do this, and they're, they're, it sounded like they've already been.
50:52
Deep sea money.
50:53
Has that happened?
50:55
Uh, and was I just mistaken?
50:56
Was that said at the hearing?
50:57
But there seems to be a lot of concern over China and, and the US
51:01
wanting to beat China to the punch.
51:03
So there is a lot of, uh, xenophobia going on in, in US politics right now.
51:10
Fear of China surpassing us in.
51:13
Right.
51:13
A lot of different ways.
51:14
And part of that is that China does currently control something like 95%
51:18
of the refining capacity for critical minerals for the world supply.
51:22
So, gotcha.
51:23
You know, they're not all mined in China, but almost all of them
51:26
go to China for, uh, refining.
51:28
Yeah.
51:28
And then get That makes sense.
51:29
And then get distributed.
51:30
Those are, that's for terrestrial mining.
51:32
Yes.
51:32
China has not mined the deep sea.
51:34
They have invested in deep sea exploration.
51:36
They have invested a tremendous amount in deep sea exploration.
51:40
They have invested in deep sea mining technology.
51:42
They have lease blocks with the International Seabed Authority
51:45
for polymetallic nodule fields as well as cobalt rich crusts
51:49
and sea floor massive sulfites.
51:50
So hydrothermal vent mining.
51:52
Um, they are pursuing, uh, a, a future that involves deep sea mining within the
51:58
framework of the ISA China did ratify the Con Convention on the Law of the Sea.
52:03
They are party of that treaty.
52:04
They are beholden to the international sea, but authority, um, you know, I
52:07
think there was a lot of, you know, using China as a boogeyman mm-hmm.
52:15
To address Yeah.
52:15
Yeah.
52:15
The US' own, uh, production inadequacies within our country because we have focused
52:21
on building a service economy for so long.
52:23
Mm-hmm.
52:24
And have lost a lot of our manufacturing and, uh, material production capacity.
52:30
Um.
52:31
I am not particularly like I I I, I do to some extent agree that like you sh one
52:36
actor controlling 95% of a supply chain.
52:39
Yeah.
52:39
Not good.
52:39
Next Generation minerals is not great.
52:41
Yeah.
52:41
We should be investing in, in refining technology in the US and in Canada
52:46
and in our allies and everywhere else because diversifying, diversifying
52:50
that supply benefits everyone.
52:53
Um, I very much disagree with the idea that China is gonna like beat
52:57
us to the deep sea and take over the high Seas and, you know, beat
53:01
us to the punch on deep sea mining.
53:02
I think if anything, China is very, very happy with the current state of affairs.
53:07
We're deep sea mining is moving incredibly slowly And so potential
53:11
competitors are not coming online to challenge their supply stream.
53:15
Yeah.
53:15
I think looking at how they've acted within the ISA and how they've
53:20
promoted the development of the regulations, I think they are, um.
53:24
Not unhappy with the current pace of DC mining negotiations, while
53:28
of course they're working on developing technology and studying
53:31
resources and all these other things.
53:33
Um, you know, that being said, China is a boogeyman for us.
53:37
Politics is not something that ever sits particularly well with me.
53:40
Um, you know, China is an economic powerhouse and we do a lot of
53:44
trade with them and mm-hmm.
53:45
You know, we should treat our trade partners like
53:47
partners and not adversaries.
53:49
Um, you know, even if there are tremendous political disagreements,
53:52
there are also like tremendous positions of agreement as well.
53:57
And in addition to that, China is facing one of the biggest demographic
54:00
cliffs in, um, the, the world right now and in world history.
54:04
Um, because the, you know, the population explosion that fueled
54:08
a lot of their economic power in the nineties is petering out.
54:11
The one child policy, one child policy put tremendous pressure on their demographics.
54:15
Yeah.
54:16
Um, you know, they're looking at, you know, an aging population.
54:20
Um, they're looking at, uh, transitioning into a service-based economy to
54:25
take care of their older citizens.
54:27
And, you know, I think, you know, the, these, these projections of
54:32
China as this great enemy that we're gonna be facing over the next 50
54:35
years is just completely unfounded.
54:37
Mm-hmm.
54:38
We're all gonna be, we're all gonna be in it together, especially as climate change.
54:42
Uh Oh Yeah.
54:42
Accelerates and like, you know, either we're all in it
54:45
together or we all drown alone.
54:48
Yeah.
54:49
Yeah.
54:49
Yeah.
54:49
And, uh, unfortunately the ladder seems to be going very strong over
54:54
the last couple of months and the last couple in the last year or so.
54:57
Um, but yeah, I, I find that interesting.
54:59
Now, overall, getting back to the hearing, overall your experience, like,
55:03
how do you rate it one outta 10, your experience with this, with this hearing?
55:09
So this is not, um, you know, this is not something I would, I would.
55:15
Uh, enjoy doing or, or suggest that you, you, you pursue for fun.
55:19
Everybody's gonna do it at one point.
55:21
Um, you know, it wasn't, it was a collegial experience.
55:25
Right.
55:25
And it was, you know, it was a, it was a, it was entirely, you
55:28
know, it was not adversarial.
55:31
Uh, the Jack Smith hearings were happening in, in the main halls
55:34
of Congress, um, that morning.
55:36
So there was a much more contentious hearing that was conflicting with ours.
55:39
So if you actually looked at the, um, at the congressional seats in the
55:43
subcommittee, you saw there was never more than five or six congressmen
55:46
in the hearing at any one time.
55:48
'cause they were going back and forth.
55:49
Um, you know, I'm glad I did it.
55:52
It was an experience and, you know, I hope I added something
55:56
of value to the conversation.
55:58
Mm-hmm.
55:58
And made sure that the environment, environment was represented,
56:02
um, in the congressional record.
56:04
Um, you know.
56:07
I'm going to a wedding this week, and I'm way looking more forward to that.
56:12
Nobody's gonna be grilling you about questions.
56:14
Forget, oh, they'll grill me about deep sea mining for sure.
56:16
Yeah, but forget Andrew in a suit.
56:18
You get the once in a decade, Andrew, in a tuxedo.
56:22
Oh, there we go.
56:23
Yes, yes.
56:24
So I don't know if I'd, I'd rate the experiences as anything.
56:28
Yeah.
56:28
But it was certainly.
56:29
I'm, I'm glad I did it, and it was certainly, um, I feel like a worthwhile
56:32
thing to, to help contribute and, you know, well, I'm glad you did it too.
56:36
It's on the record.
56:37
It's, uh, you know, it's information that needed to be on the record.
56:40
As you said, you never know what's gonna happen in November at the midterms.
56:44
Uh, in 2026, uh, hopefully, you know, we see some changes.
56:49
Uh, if we do, then this, this, uh, hearing becomes all that much more
56:53
important, uh, in, in the way it go.
56:55
It moves forward.
56:56
And I, I thought, uh, as, as your friend, as your colleague, you were amazing.
57:02
Um, you know, it was, uh, phenomenal to see you up there,
57:05
you know, giving your expertise.
57:06
I know you've, you've lent your expertise on this podcast so many times and
57:10
educated myself as well as the audience.
57:13
Uh, you know, about deep sea mining so many times.
57:15
You do it such a great way, in a very scientific way.
57:17
You're not necessarily biased, one or the other.
57:19
When you give the information, you're very upfront, and I, and we appreciate that.
57:23
I'm a little biased.
57:23
I'd be a little biased, but, but when you give it, I mean, I did, I I did
57:27
make a point of, you know, kind of the deep sea world, according to Andrew,
57:30
is that, you know, sea floor, massive sulfite, hydrothermal vent mining.
57:35
Absolutely not.
57:35
Never.
57:36
Yeah.
57:36
Can never be done with environmental responsibility.
57:38
Cobalt, rich crust mining on sea mounts.
57:40
No, not a chance.
57:41
Can't be done right.
57:42
Polymetallic, nodule mining.
57:43
Maybe, but I remain unconvinced.
57:47
Yeah, for sure.
57:48
There's too many, there's too many unknowns and, and totally understandable.
57:51
As I said, you let the science speak for yourself, uh, speak, speak for itself.
57:55
Um, but then you, you also, I have found, you also talked a lot about
57:57
the advancement of the technologies of DC mining over the last years and
58:00
how it's becoming better and better, uh, which is improving sort of the,
58:04
the outlook if this ever happens.
58:07
Um, and I thought that was really good.
58:08
I thought it was really good that you mentioned that it shows that, that,
58:10
you know, you're, you're looking at it from a scientific lens, and I
58:13
think that's, that's really important.
58:14
So I'm proud of you, man.
58:16
Uh, I don't know how much that's worth, but I'm proud of you and,
58:18
and, and we appreciate all the work you do and, and, uh, you know,
58:21
this is a lot on your own time.
58:24
You know, and, and you know, it, it, I think it'll continue to, um, you know, fit
58:28
the, the, the legacy of Dr. Andrew tha in, in terms of what he's doing to, uh, you
58:33
know, from, from, from title gauges all the way to Senate, uh, to, to committee,
58:39
congress, congressional committee, uh, test testifying, uh, absolutely amazing.
58:44
Uh, you continue to, to put me in awe of what you're able to do.
58:47
So thank you so much for, for doing that.
58:50
And thank you so much for coming on, Andrew.
58:51
Can't wait to to have you back.
58:52
We're working on some stuff Oh, Yeah.
58:54
Behind the scenes folks.
58:55
And, and, um, you'll be seeing a lot more of Andrew soon Enough.
58:58
Uh, which will, which will be great.
59:00
I can't wait.
59:00
So, uh, thank you so much for joining us, Andrew.
59:02
Appreciate it.
59:02
And thank you so much.
59:03
I'm, I'm a amped.
59:06
Right on.
59:07
Talk to you soon.
59:08
Right.
59:08
Thank you, Andrew, for joining us again on the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
59:12
Great to have you on.
59:13
Looking forward to having you on again, like I said before, we got some stuff
59:16
that we're talking about of doing on a little bit more semi-permanent basis,
59:20
I guess, where gonna be on a lot more.
59:22
Than he is now, which is great.
59:24
Love it.
59:24
Because Andrew always brings the heat when he brings the content.
59:27
So we're gonna talk about that.
59:28
We'll let you know as this develops, but it's gonna be a lot of fun.
59:31
I hope you enjoyed the interview.
59:32
I hope you enjoyed what goes on in looking at a committee and people who testify.
59:37
It's great when a buddy of yours testifies and you really get his feelings.
59:40
Another buddy of ours who is my co-host on the Polar Bears and Flip Flops podcast,
59:45
it was in the background and I remember him sending me pictures of him in the
59:48
background with Andrew in the foreground.
59:50
You know, two great buddies, two great Ocean conservation people that are in the
59:54
industry, making sure that they know, and they represent science and conservation
59:59
and the people that are being affected, especially the territories that are being
1:00:02
affected by potential deep sea mining.
1:00:05
And I thought it was great to see for the territories, to have the ability,
1:00:09
Guam, marina Islands, American Samoa, to be able to speak out and be like,
1:00:13
Hey, you haven't included us during the process and we're gonna be affected by it.
1:00:17
We need to be part of the conversation.
1:00:19
You need to include us in.
1:00:20
I thought that was great that they got to say that and it's on record.
1:00:23
I also thought it was interesting Andrew's point about who's gonna be observing,
1:00:27
not, you can't be the mining company.
1:00:28
Somebody's gotta be observing what they're doing and if anything goes
1:00:31
wrong, what that shutdown would look like, what the studies would look
1:00:34
like after that, how the effect would happen and what that overall effect
1:00:37
is if the shutdowns don't happen, and how long they go down for if they,
1:00:40
or if they don't even go down at all.
1:00:42
A lot of things to consider.
1:00:43
And Andrew kind of, he went on, it was kind of cool, he went on a bit of a rant
1:00:47
of what is the realities of this type of information, of this type of process.
1:00:54
And you know, at the end he says the hydrogen sulfide mining no good, the sea
1:00:59
mount mining, no good polymetallic nodules potentially, but he's not convinced.
1:01:04
There's still a lot of questions that go around the effects that we have.
1:01:08
The connectivity within the Deep Sea is still not known.
1:01:11
The amount of unique habitats that could be supporting our Ocean
1:01:15
processes, we just don't know about and we don't know where they are.
1:01:19
We're discovering 'em all the time.
1:01:20
There's new technology that can help, but we still have a lot more work to do.
1:01:24
So even if this all happens.
1:01:25
We don't even have refineries to actually refine them and to get them
1:01:29
to extract the metals from the nodules.
1:01:31
And so is this all for naught?
1:01:33
Are we rushing into this?
1:01:34
Just for rushing into it?
1:01:36
As Andrew says, if you're gonna put a stockpile 'em on land, why don't
1:01:38
you just leave 'em in the Ocean for now and not disturb anything?
1:01:42
A lot of questions to be had, and I would love to hear your questions
1:01:44
or comments on this episode.
1:01:45
If you're watching this on YouTube, put it in the comedy section below.
1:01:48
If you're listening to this on your favorite podcast app, I
1:01:50
would love to hear your feedback.
1:01:52
Go to speak up for blue.com/feedback.
1:01:55
I'd love to hear what you have to say.
1:01:56
Questions, comments.
1:01:58
You can put in as a voicemail.
1:01:59
You can put it in as written.
1:02:00
I would love to hear what you have to say about deep sea mining 'cause
1:02:03
this is the start of a conversation.
1:02:05
I'd love to continue that with you and hear your thoughts and what you wanna
1:02:08
see happen with deep sea mining in the US as well as beyond in the high Seas.
1:02:13
So I wanna thank you so much everybody, and thank you obviously to Andrew Thaler
1:02:17
for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
1:02:20
I'm your host Angel and from the true Nordstrom and free, have a great day.
1:02:23
We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.