Latest / Identity at the Center / #209 - The Fusion of Identity and Cybersecurity with David Mahdi

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#209 - The Fusion of Identity and Cybersecurity with David Mahdi · Identity at the Center

• 0:01
  This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I
• 0:08
  am this is the go-to podcast. So if you're a beginner or an
• 0:14
  expert or anyone in between you've found your new home
• 0:18
  welcome to Identity at the center now your host Jim
• 0:23
  McDonald and Jeff Steadman Welcome to the identity of the
• 0:30
  sender podcast, I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
• 0:32
  Hey Jim hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, and that's a bad yourself,
• 0:36
  good. Hey I've got some folks here
• 0:38
  working on my oven. So I've got like a double oven
• 0:43
  is kind of built in which basically means just like
• 0:45
  screwed into the Cabinetry but I've never seen it removed from
• 0:51
  the wall until today and is removed from the wall across.
• 0:54
  It's all. Is that the original installer?
• 0:58
  I guess didn't have enough wire so rather than like doing like
• 1:02
  putting a cut in the wall to lower the point at which the
• 1:06
  wire comes out, they just kind of ripped it down and its total
• 1:10
  mess and it kind of came to my mind, it's like have some pride
• 1:15
  in your work. You do the things that you need
• 1:19
  to do to do, you know, take the extra time and do it right.
• 1:23
  You know, I think that's good, career advice, you know
• 1:26
  especially for anybody Just starting out, no matter what you
• 1:29
  do. If you write documentation, just
• 1:33
  don't take the shortcuts just because you think somebody's not
• 1:37
  watching or not going to see or not.
• 1:39
  Going to matter, do things with with the right level of quality.
• 1:45
  Man. That's like not look to that and
• 1:47
  I'm like I don't know who did that work but whoever did it
• 1:50
  just doesn't care. Well, I agree with you, right?
• 1:55
  You should be doing, good work all the time but I mean there's
• 1:58
  times you take shortcuts, right? I mean we were just humans like
• 2:01
  you have enough time you wish it could you wish you had more time
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  on something? You wish you maybe had more
• 2:05
  information or maybe I mean it's not pop out the same as like,
• 2:09
  you know, ripping drywall. I'm assuming so you mean look
• 2:11
  like cable coming through to reach a to reach the oven but
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  yeah, do good work. But I don't know.
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  I think it's an attitude night. I think You like to take the
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  other side of the coin, do I love to?
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  But if I was making the case that hey, you know, just take a
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  shortcut, just do garbage work, you would counsel me to do the
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  opposite. Yeah.
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  Take an island and do things right?
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  Because, you know, especially when somebody is eventually
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  going to be your customers. Like you know, to do a shoddy
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  job, it's just not acceptable. You have to be ready to accept
• 2:47
  the ramifications of the of that work, right?
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  If you're okay with a hey hey, this is Be really crappy wiring,
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  but it's going to go by and nothing and nobody will probably
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  say it for 20 years. You know, is that person going
• 2:59
  to still be running care? Maybe not, but maybe you're
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  writing a report or you're doing, I do some documentation
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  or something and, you know, the one time you need it and it's
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  not. There were some user is relying
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  on it, right? And it's like, oh yeah, I kind
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  of skipped it and then this one sure.
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  Yeah, I think I think the moral of the story is everything has a
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  consequence and if you should be prepared for whatever, the
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  consequences are of whatever you're putting out into the
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  world, how's that something? I'm going to say that.
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  I think the moral of the story is the true test of character is
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  doing things the right way. Even when you don't think
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  somebody's, why? Nobody's looking?
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  Yeah. All right, you're a better
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  person than I am for sure. Then I thought we established
• 3:43
  that I where we on episode like, 300 now is it?
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  Yeah. 209 and yeah, we're just now figuring it out that Jeff
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  likes to work. Smart, not hard.
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  I hate. I've got an 18 year old and he
• 3:55
  said to me the other day like I'm going to work smart.
• 3:59
  I'm like, son. You're 18 years old.
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  You need to work, smart and hard.
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  That's the ticket smart and hard and off.
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  Yes, work as far as important but you're only 18.
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  If you think you can get by working 23 hours a day, sleeping
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  till 11:00 I'm here to tell you, man, that's not going to work.
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  That's not a path to success. All right, let's move on because
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  I don't think anyone's going to get anything out of this and
• 4:25
  intro conversation between us are, are stupid banter.
• 4:29
  Well why don't we talk about universe?
• 4:30
  That's coming up. We have a partnership that we're
• 4:33
  doing with the Dedenne averse, folks.
• 4:35
  So identifiers, 2023 is heading to Vegas, join the digital
• 4:39
  identity community at the Aria Resort and Casino in Las Vegas.
• 4:42
  May 30th June 2nd Jim and I are both going to be there, right?
• 4:45
  Jim, it's absolutely right. That's my flight gets cancelled.
• 4:49
  No, you better show up because we're supposed to ruin do some
• 4:51
  live recording there and so I podcasts part of the welcome
• 4:54
  ceremony stuff working out but if you're not familiar with that
• 4:57
  it never sits. The must attend annual event.
• 4:59
  That brings together over 2500 Security Professionals for four
• 5:02
  days of world class learning. A judgment and entertainment
• 5:06
  that's hands. It is a mount, it is, it's a
• 5:08
  mountain, it's a mouthful, it's everything.
• 5:10
  But here's the good news, if you are an identity to Center
• 5:13
  listener, you get 20% off of your identity verse twenty,
• 5:16
  twenty three tickets using Code, idv, 23-0, icen, 20.
• 5:23
  It just rolls right off the tongue, doesn't it?
• 5:25
  Jim. Absolutely.
• 5:26
  I think the good news is I'll be there.
• 5:28
  You'll be there. Our Guest today.
• 5:30
  David Mahdi will be there. Dreamy, lots of people from the
• 5:34
  I am industry or digital identity industry, whatever you
• 5:37
  want to call it. Yeah, it's the who's who of
• 5:39
  identity will be there? You deftly want to register
• 5:41
  identifies.com today? When people hearing this for the
• 5:44
  first time, it will be April 24th.
• 5:46
  And there's only three days left of the early bird discount,
• 5:49
  which ends on April 27th. So, make sure you maximize.
• 5:52
  As many discounts as you can use our code, I'll have a link on
• 5:54
  our show notes with both the code as well as a very handy
• 5:57
  link. You can just click it and it
• 5:58
  will populate it automatically and we hope to see everyone at
• 6:02
  identifiers. So we're planning on doing like
• 6:03
  this. Well, Reception sort of live
• 6:06
  podcast recording 7 p.m. Tuesday night, which is the 30th
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  and we're supposed to be kind of like just outside the, the
• 6:13
  welcome area. So hopefully people come check
• 6:15
  us out and we should have plenty good guest, like our friend,
• 6:18
  David Marty. Who's going to join us here.
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  We're going to talk a little bit about the fusion of cyber
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  security and identity, very heady title, but joining us
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  today for the first time as David.
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  Marty, he's the CIO at transmit security.
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  He's also a former Gartner analyst.
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  He's also an incredibly gifted Adaxes thrower case you didn't
• 6:35
  know that. He's joining us all the way from
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  Ottawa, Canada. Welcome to the show David, Jeff.
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  Jim, thank you so much for having me here today.
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  It's definitely an honor and a pleasure and thank you for those
• 6:47
  kind words about the, the axe throwing that we for some of our
• 6:51
  listeners maybe they were there. That was at the Gartner identity
• 6:55
  and access management Summit. Where you guys hosted an axe
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  ring event. That was pretty cool.
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  Nobody got hurt. Nobody got hurt, no one got
• 7:03
  hurt. You know what, this one I think,
• 7:06
  you know, I think David if the side anything doesn't work out,
• 7:09
  I feel like there's some people in that room that were throwing
• 7:12
  axes that can probably turn pro, and I don't know if I should be
• 7:14
  impressed or scared or a little bit of both.
• 7:17
  I know, right? It's true, it's true.
• 7:19
  It was. Yeah, it was, it was fun and
• 7:21
  they did a good job to of having different games.
• 7:23
  It wasn't just about hitting the targets.
• 7:25
  They had all sorts of different games of getting targets,
• 7:28
  different targets, different numbers.
• 7:30
  And yeah, it was, it was a good night, but we can't forget that.
• 7:34
  That venue. They had a lot of old school
• 7:37
  arcade games and you guys were gracious enough to have these
• 7:41
  gift cards or the cards at the door.
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  And I was like a kid in a candy store because when I swiped one
• 7:47
  of them, I think it was on Terminator 2.
• 7:49
  I was with like the to Uzis. Yep, it was like four hours so
• 7:54
  it wasn't credits. It was like my time like what do
• 7:56
  you mean I have four hours? Like this is insane and I
• 7:59
  remember that machine as a kid I was like I Remember how much,
• 8:05
  how many quarters I pumped in or tokens?
• 8:07
  I pumped into that machine. And I was going around was like,
• 8:09
  Simpsons, pinball, Street Fighter 2, even like really old
• 8:13
  school game. See what the asteroid was there,
• 8:16
  centipede on. And on, I don't know if you guys
• 8:18
  had a chance to play the arcade games, but I definitely spent
• 8:20
  some time there. Yeah, but I went over my one of
• 8:23
  my favorite games, coming up was track and field.
• 8:26
  And so there's two versions of track and field, one more that
• 8:28
  you have the ball, where you spin the ball fast and your guy
• 8:31
  runs and most people can get that ball spinning.
• 8:34
  Pretty fast, but you would get the blister on your finger.
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  The version they had at the at the gaming Bistro was the one
• 8:43
  where you tap the buttons and that's how you move your legs
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  and run fast. So it's like left right there
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  through the button. Yeah, two of the folks that were
• 8:52
  there, they were like one of them was hitting one button, the
• 8:55
  other receiving, the other button, I was like, you guys
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  are, like, we were a team. We were teenagers, like totally
• 9:01
  cheating to try and win this video game.
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  I mean, As for the whole point of that thing was you supposed
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  to bring like a pencil or a pen or something, and you hit one
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  button. So that then the momentum would
• 9:10
  do the other button because it supposed to be like left right?
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  And whole point is do a pattern and I sucked at that game.
• 9:14
  I could not play that game to say my wife, certainly gotten
• 9:17
  the street fighter. I was a little bummed that the
• 9:18
  controller didn't work very well.
• 9:20
  So trying to do my dragon punches with Ken and Ryu just
• 9:24
  wasn't happening, but yeah, yeah, overall, it's a very cool
• 9:27
  time, you know, for for our first-ever identity, the center
• 9:31
  listener, meet up and you're getting the sponsors that we did
• 9:33
  it again. Thanks to all.
• 9:34
  RSM and one Cosmos an octave for helping us put that together.
• 9:38
  It was very cool so hopefully we'll be able to do something
• 9:40
  like that in the future 100% 100% but yeah definitely excited
• 9:44
  to be here today. I know we're going to get into
• 9:47
  some some interesting topics and yeah can't wait to get going
• 9:51
  here. Yeah so it's your first time we
• 9:53
  have a ritual tradition, a grilling, whatever you want to
• 9:56
  call it. How did you get into identity?
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  Is it something that you chose or did it choose you?
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  Oh, I would say, it shows me, I started out in Defence and then
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  got into training electrical engineering software
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  engineering, and then got into malware, web security, email,
• 10:18
  security, all that stuff, we're just called viruses at the time.
• 10:23
  And then I joined a company called n trust, learned a lot
• 10:27
  about pki and discovered that, you know, cartography and all
• 10:31
  this actually lends itself. Very well to like, Identity.
• 10:34
  But really if you go back you know almost 20 years ago with
• 10:39
  pki most people were just using it for authentication but it was
• 10:44
  mostly websites, right? So so what we would call that
• 10:47
  today is machine and identity. But back then it was just you
• 10:52
  need a certificate for a website.
• 10:53
  So your browser can allow people to establish a TLS or SSL
• 10:56
  session, right? And that's how I kind of got
• 11:00
  into it a little bit and as I spent more time started to get
• 11:04
  The human identity stuff National identities worked on
• 11:07
  one of the passports, that kind of stuff and then got sucked
• 11:11
  into Workforce and consumer identity even further in joining
• 11:15
  another companies after that and all that.
• 11:18
  So, yeah, so I guess it shows me in a sense or pulled me into its
• 11:23
  gravity Center. That's my, that's my prevailing
• 11:26
  thought is, I think, you know, maybe this is part of our age
• 11:29
  bracket is for the most part. I feel like the the older folks
• 11:33
  In The Biz Identity, chose them, and I don't know if they
• 11:37
  necessarily had a choice. It was just kind of like a
• 11:38
  you're doing this now. Yeah, that's kind of how it
• 11:41
  worked. Who knows, right.
• 11:43
  But every once in a while, we see that real weirdo who chose
• 11:45
  identity and we love them for it.
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  That's great. So now you're a transmit
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  security and you're a CIO at transmissivity.
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  What does a CIO do for a identity technology company?
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  So, two questions. Yeah, the CIO do.
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  And then to for those who aren't familiar with transmit, what do
• 12:02
  you guys do? Okay.
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  Okay. So great questions.
• 12:05
  So CIO, it's actually a really, I think awesome title, fun title
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  and something that I think a lot of us identify Rowdy, if you
• 12:14
  will, that's what we called identity, Folks at Gartner, by
• 12:17
  the way, Chief identity officer. So the notion is, is being an
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  evangelist going to events working closely with a lot of my
• 12:29
  former colleagues and analysts understanding what we're seeing.
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  In the market from an analyst perspective, going out and doing
• 12:37
  a lot of kind of CIO Cecil advisory work as well.
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  So I I've been doing that for a long time and a lot of it is
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  even agnostic to, but meeting with some of these folks seeing
• 12:47
  what their problems are and then looking at transmit security and
• 12:52
  saying, how can we help solve these problems?
• 12:55
  Whether it's us, whether it's some of our partners or even the
• 13:00
  community as well. I'm a big fan of obviously, you
• 13:03
  know, networking and And you know, people make things happen
• 13:06
  and when people know people and you know who's got what makes
• 13:11
  the world go around. So even with some of our
• 13:13
  clients, connecting them with each other so that they can
• 13:16
  share knowledge your experiences.
• 13:17
  But yeah, so that's kind of my role in a nutshell at transmit
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  security. What is transmitted security do
• 13:25
  so? I mean, look, I'll also talk
• 13:29
  about what transmitted does it also say why I joined, right?
• 13:32
  So as a former gardener, Once I had the privilege to be able to
• 13:36
  work with lots of different organizations around the world
• 13:39
  from investors to the tech providers themselves, your Tech
• 13:44
  Titans to, you know, all of the usual suspects in the identity
• 13:48
  space and cyber security space as well as large Banks.
• 13:53
  Large Enterprises large, you know, retailers and all kinds of
• 13:58
  organizations Under the Sun. And you get a really good view
• 14:02
  of all that stuff. I would say the The analogy is
• 14:04
  like as an analyst year, you're like someone who's sitting in
• 14:07
  the bleachers, watching the game, you know, and if you're a
• 14:10
  consultant, if you're an investor, if you're a
• 14:12
  practitioner, you're a vendor, you're on the field, playing the
• 14:15
  game. And I was watching the game now,
• 14:18
  I like playing the sport, right. So I was like Gartner for almost
• 14:23
  seven years and you know, I saw transmit security a long time
• 14:26
  ago and I thought OK, these guys were doing some cool things they
• 14:28
  were doing before it was even kind of known to be something
• 14:31
  identity orchestration. And you know, kept my eye on
• 14:36
  them like okay former founders of trusteer and a van, a whole
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  raft of cyber security and identity companies under their
• 14:43
  belt and I'm like okay that's a company to watch just because
• 14:46
  the team, they've done some things that are very cool in the
• 14:49
  past, keep an eye on them, watch the market, see where it goes
• 14:53
  and then they showed us like hey you know we'll work with the
• 14:56
  bank that has over 400 identity silos.
• 15:01
  And in all those silos you've got bread.
• 15:03
  Of one consumer, one user in all these silos.
• 15:07
  How do you bring this together? Some of this is Legacy text.
• 15:09
  Some of its you know maybe a little bit newer so it's a
• 15:12
  little bit older. How do you bring all this
• 15:14
  together? Sure, some of it was using Open
• 15:16
  Standards and some of it not so you needed to be able to
• 15:19
  effectively almost log into each one of these things.
• 15:23
  So transmit was one of the first to say we need orchestration.
• 15:26
  You know nice visual interface to be able to hook into all
• 15:30
  these applications to give an identity leader or a security
• 15:33
  leak. L a singular view of a user to
• 15:36
  know, you know what they're doing, if they're calling into a
• 15:39
  call center, if they're using a mobile app or using website, or
• 15:41
  using a combination thereof. So, they were first to Market
• 15:45
  with that and an talent and I nominated them as a and they
• 15:48
  were selected to be a cool vendor a few years ago.
• 15:52
  And then they, you know, started focusing on doing orchestration
• 15:56
  within password list. And, you know, now really
• 15:59
  broadening out focusing on consumer identity, access
• 16:03
  Management and business to business as well but not going
• 16:07
  off for Workforce, you know. And I guess just with the topic
• 16:11
  we want to talk about today and linking those together, what
• 16:14
  really pulled me over to transmit was just the vision for
• 16:18
  today in the future and that is the fusion of identity and cyber
• 16:24
  security because when you look at the heritage of the team, all
• 16:29
  if I start with that, it's all cyber security people fraud.
• 16:33
  List, military, backgrounds, deep, cyber security expertise,
• 16:37
  and then they also have a lot of identity experts.
• 16:40
  And what I noticed also, as I Gartner analyst, one of the
• 16:42
  things I was charged with was looking at the convergence of
• 16:46
  identity and cybersecurity with data, security, tools, and other
• 16:50
  security tools as well. And I think we've crossed the
• 16:54
  the chasm. Now, we're even, I know I saw
• 16:57
  both of you at the Gartner conference for me, that Gardener
• 17:00
  conference the identity and access management conference
• 17:03
  that Someone in Grapevine, Texas, to me, it almost felt
• 17:06
  more like a cybersecurity conference than and identity
• 17:09
  conference. And I think these worlds are
• 17:11
  coming together, even the name of your podcast, identity at the
• 17:14
  center cybersecurity people are getting that memo now finally
• 17:19
  that you have to start with identity, whether it's a human
• 17:22
  machine and application. What is it, what can it do?
• 17:27
  And can you trust it? And then everything wraps around
• 17:30
  that without doing that without knowing who and what you're
• 17:32
  dealing with? I I understand what kind of
• 17:34
  security policy you can you can apply so.
• 17:37
  So I guess to kind of summarize. What transmitted does it?
• 17:41
  Say we focus on identity and cybersecurity focus purely on
• 17:47
  kind of consumer identity, access management.
• 17:49
  But bringing that kind of fraud detection, you know, looking at
• 17:54
  bad Bots. Look at all these things, but
• 17:55
  also focus on the user experience and delivering that
• 17:58
  to two organizations and I'll stop.
• 18:00
  There is very long-winded. So you mentioned something
• 18:05
  there, that always piques my interest and that's the mention
• 18:07
  of a cool vendor. What does that mean to be a cool
• 18:11
  vendor? Like who has the Arbiter at you
• 18:13
  know, of this vendor is cool and this one is not and I guess I
• 18:19
  don't know if you can talk about it.
• 18:20
  I was like a Gartner thing but what does that mean?
• 18:23
  Like what does it have to be a cool vendor?
• 18:24
  Oh it's a secret. I could tell you but I'd have to
• 18:27
  talk right? Thought, I don't wanna know
• 18:29
  where Henry K or Becky or anybody else?
• 18:32
  No no, no. Yeah, so look I mean cool
• 18:35
  vendors are really just that so couple things and this is could
• 18:40
  also be a PSA for some of the tech providers that are out
• 18:42
  there. Gargery has, you know, has a
• 18:46
  number of different cool vendor categories.
• 18:49
  So you know, if it's in, you know, cloud or cloud storage, or
• 18:53
  data security or endpoint security so that for various
• 18:56
  topics and of course, those areas also evolved as those
• 18:59
  markets evolve. So for and in the case for
• 19:04
  transmitted was in identity and access management in the past,
• 19:07
  they used to do one a year, you know, one cool vendor report a
• 19:10
  year and then because there's just so much innovation in ite
• 19:16
  but also in cyber security and identity in general, they're
• 19:19
  like, you know what, I think we need to do this twice a year
• 19:20
  because there's just there's so many vendors we would nominate
• 19:25
  from a very high level, how it works is analysts.
• 19:28
  Get briefed. You know, we would do hundreds
• 19:31
  of briefings a year. And you don't have to be a
• 19:35
  customer to do a briefing. You just can email vendor dot
• 19:39
  briefings at gardenerd.com submit a briefing and then, you
• 19:43
  know, you eventually pick a date.
• 19:46
  Obviously, if you are a customer, there's ways to link
• 19:48
  your account and do everything. So you get one, one View and all
• 19:51
  that kind of stuff, but I won't get into that.
• 19:54
  But anyone can do a briefing and, you know, you would kind of
• 19:58
  do your briefing with an analyst, show them what you're
• 20:00
  doing. Ideally you are.
• 20:03
  Presenting to them. Not giving them your story from
• 20:06
  when you were a child and all that stuff, which we would see a
• 20:09
  lot of the time. And sometimes it makes sense.
• 20:11
  If they can connect the dots but other times you're like, okay, I
• 20:15
  just want to know what you do, how you do it, what makes you
• 20:19
  unique and is there anyone using it right now?
• 20:23
  And there are a lot of very much like Shark Tank.
• 20:26
  It's not unlike Shark Tank. Yes, right?
• 20:29
  Except I would say we're much nicer and then we don't have
• 20:33
  piles. Cash behind us so that's the
• 20:35
  difference but but obviously getting that cool vendor
• 20:39
  Accolade can translate into if it's used.
• 20:43
  Well it is valued in the industry investors really do pay
• 20:47
  attention to that. There was one report and you can
• 20:49
  talk to Becky and Henry K and Mike Kelly and some of my former
• 20:52
  colleagues where it was like you to tell the vendors that guys.
• 20:55
  Can you stop buying all of the vendors like right after we
• 20:57
  published a report? They all get acquired.
• 20:59
  The can we give them a chance to actually you know?
• 21:03
  Show some success on their own but let me just fit it.
• 21:06
  Wrap this one up here. So really there's there's no
• 21:09
  explicit criteria. It's just usually we get exposed
• 21:12
  to someone who we think is cool. They're doing cool things and
• 21:15
  some of the stuff is in production and an analyst would
• 21:17
  just kind of keep their eye on them much like myself and
• 21:20
  talented for transmitted and then we nominate them
• 21:22
  internally. There's think of it like a call
• 21:24
  for papers internally and we would we would nominate them and
• 21:28
  then then it goes into kind of a you know, a garter process. are,
• 21:34
  you know, we would argue debate and do all sorts of things and
• 21:39
  what comes out on the other end is, you know, a list of vendors
• 21:43
  that, you know, we would say, hey, these are, these are
• 21:47
  actually good choices for candidates and, you know, live,
• 21:51
  I've nominated tons of enters in the past and, you know, my
• 21:55
  experience has been the ones that have been selected, the
• 21:58
  ones that I've been a part of having them selected, we're the
• 22:01
  ones that always nailed the Use cases, they had production.
• 22:05
  There's so many cool ones that you're like that's very cool.
• 22:07
  What you're doing? Who's using it right there.
• 22:10
  No one really like, okay. Give me a call when someone's
• 22:14
  using it. Stay in touch.
• 22:16
  But I really want to know and I think there was a LTR altar that
• 22:20
  was one vendor that. I nominated to do like kind of
• 22:23
  blockchain data security stuff. Oh, they probably kill me for
• 22:26
  saying that now, but that was one of the missing links those
• 22:29
  production clients, and then that allowed me to And if, you
• 22:34
  know, push them transmit security was pretty
• 22:36
  straightforward because they had customers almost from day one.
• 22:40
  And so it was pretty straightforward for an talent
• 22:42
  and I to say, hey, they're doing something cool.
• 22:44
  They've got a customer base and we went from there.
• 22:48
  So, yeah. So that's it's a kind of one of
• 22:51
  those things that we see out there but we don't know what's
• 22:53
  behind it. It does actually, in my opinion,
• 22:56
  if you see it, it's something to take note of a vendor.
• 22:59
  If you're looking at them, I like you.
• 23:02
  And I like hearing behind the story.
• 23:03
  Behind the scene stories like that to be able to kind of help
• 23:06
  understand what does that actually mean.
• 23:08
  We want to talk about cyber security identity and sort of
• 23:11
  fusing the two. But I was looking, you know,
• 23:13
  doing some research for we started, and I didn't realize
• 23:15
  this, but you wrote a book The Art of selling cybersecurity.
• 23:18
  And I'm not, we're not going to sell the book or anything like
• 23:20
  that right now, but our show notes, but I looked at the
• 23:23
  review and there was one person who wrote a one star review by
• 23:27
  the name of Marcel. Yeah, very disappointed.
• 23:30
  Have you even read the book? Yet?
• 23:31
  Was very disappointed. That there wasn't No table of
• 23:33
  contents. Yeah.
• 23:35
  Has that been fixed? That has very seldom, have happy
• 23:38
  reading all that stuff. Yeah.
• 23:40
  So shout out to to the lead author, there mati rasa.
• 23:43
  He was a champion bringing that together.
• 23:46
  And and, but yeah, to Marcel, that has been fixed.
• 23:49
  And I think it was fixed, like, pretty quickly after we saw that
• 23:53
  comment, and it was just a funny book thing because the print
• 23:57
  version never had that issue. And I think, after I saw that I
• 24:02
  went and I made sure I Loaded the Kindle version.
• 24:04
  I think that may have been the problem and I saw that.
• 24:07
  It was fixed. So, so, you know, that kind of
• 24:10
  thing. Hopefully, you know, we see
• 24:11
  those things. Get fixed.
• 24:12
  But, you know, just a quick note on the the book why I jumped in
• 24:15
  on that project it was, it was just the team.
• 24:18
  It was a solid team. So, unlike look, there's a
• 24:21
  bazillion sales books out there for all sorts of things.
• 24:25
  Right? The, the angle that book took
• 24:29
  was, we had a number of cisos join us, too.
• 24:33
  What worked for you when you bought software, you tell us
• 24:38
  what a successful deal looks like from the sea.
• 24:41
  So security teams perspective, not some sales Guru telling you
• 24:45
  what to do, although there's Merit in that.
• 24:46
  Absolutely, we did have some of those folks on there too, but
• 24:49
  that's kind of the, the different angle.
• 24:52
  And one one of my friends who's in the identities face, who will
• 24:57
  go on names? You know, I think he said when
• 25:00
  he looked at the book like he's like, you know, The Epiphany he
• 25:04
  had was not just about, you know, being sold to from
• 25:08
  vendors, but it was him being the identity Champion within his
• 25:13
  organization and selling identity within the
• 25:16
  organization. Because let's be honest, too
• 25:18
  many of our listeners, you always have to be selling.
• 25:21
  You have to be selling yourself, you got to be selling your
• 25:23
  identity programs and it's not easy.
• 25:26
  It's not easy to get some of these things off the ground.
• 25:29
  So you need you need to be able to sell.
• 25:31
  So so part of the book also covers some of the To and
• 25:34
  selling themselves selling the programs.
• 25:35
  They have to push and all this because look, no one wants to do
• 25:38
  multi-factor authentication. So you got to sell that, right?
• 25:42
  Like I'm you're asking people to do more work for what would seem
• 25:45
  trivial but they don't know. So it's on you to sell so that
• 25:49
  was kind of the angle of it but but yeah.
• 25:52
  Yeah. If you wait till the point where
• 25:54
  it's easy to cells like you wait too long.
• 25:57
  Yeah, that's easy to sell multi-factor authentication
• 26:00
  within your organization now because if If you haven't done
• 26:04
  it already like oh my gosh, that's a good point here.
• 26:07
  Insurance are probably making you do it anyway.
• 26:10
  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you've been responsible
• 26:12
  for the cool vendor moniker, what all the cool podcast
• 26:16
  moniker? Where is this cool podcast?
• 26:19
  I think so, I think so, look. I mean I have to give you guys
• 26:23
  huge Kudos because look, the identities face was one that was
• 26:28
  always been kind of in the in the basement, right?
• 26:31
  Where it's like well what is identity?
• 26:33
  It's One. Remove reliever.
• 26:34
  Like that's it, that's important.
• 26:36
  But, you know, now even when we talk about it coming into
• 26:40
  cybersecurity, everyone knows cybersecurity is hot and
• 26:42
  everyone cares about cybersecurity, but identity is
• 26:45
  being pulled into that and we're seeing it.
• 26:48
  Now, I think all over the place when I have friends that aren't
• 26:52
  even in our space at all, and they're asking me questions
• 26:54
  about, you know, passkeys. Like once I heard this thing
• 26:58
  called, passkeys, what is it? What's password was
• 27:01
  Authentication, I can see that I can scan my driver's license now
• 27:06
  to get all boarded. Like what does that mean?
• 27:08
  What you know, tell me what's going on behind the scenes.
• 27:10
  I'm like this is really cool. Like finally, all the stuff that
• 27:14
  we've been doing for decades is like coming into the Limelight.
• 27:17
  So, you know, so I think, I think that's, that's one of the
• 27:21
  things that I have to give kudos to you guys for kind of
• 27:24
  continuing that momentum, and spreading the spreading the good
• 27:28
  word. And, you know, the more the
• 27:30
  merrier, right? I think the more we have of
• 27:32
  these types of things. He's in the fact that you guys
• 27:34
  have also launched onto doing that great interview on stage at
• 27:37
  Gartner and then doing your work with identity verse and you can
• 27:40
  authenticate later on in the year.
• 27:42
  So kudos to you guys. Yeah, no.
• 27:45
  Thanks. When I asked the question for
• 27:46
  two reasons, one was just rokk my ego and Shred, I'll see you
• 27:50
  go. The second reason was, as kind
• 27:53
  of a leading to our main topic because I think, you know, look,
• 27:58
  the podcast called identity at the center and I feel like our I
• 28:03
  don't feel like, but I'm concerned that we're creating a
• 28:06
  bit of an echo chamber. All of our guests are people in
• 28:09
  the identity and access management and Industry Jeff.
• 28:11
  And I are in the identity and access management.
• 28:14
  We all agree. I didn't eat access management
• 28:17
  is the most important idea that ever graced humankind, right?
• 28:22
  But no, I mean, so we talked. I reach out to you and said,
• 28:26
  David want to have you on the podcast?
• 28:30
  What's the topic? And so what we got to was what
• 28:33
  you proposed was the fusing of cyber security and identity.
• 28:39
  That is how cybersecurity players are looking at identity.
• 28:42
  And similarly with I am players. Also known as Gartner's identity
• 28:48
  for security. Yep.
• 28:49
  And, you know, you mean, Jeff, all agree.
• 28:53
  I did any First Security. I didn't used to send her a
• 28:56
  little concerned that maybe were You know?
• 29:00
  And the other one is identity is the new perimeter?
• 29:04
  Yes. You know.
• 29:05
  It's like are we creating an echo chamber does the rest of
• 29:08
  the world information? Security cybersecurity players
• 29:12
  do they truly think like oh everything we've been doing in
• 29:14
  the past the actually Wrong or changing.
• 29:20
  And now identity is the most important thing.
• 29:22
  Yeah. So what am I missing?
• 29:27
  I don't think you're missing anything.
• 29:28
  I think identity is identity, has evolved its evolving and it
• 29:32
  has evolved in many ways. Look I T was always focused on
• 29:39
  just productivity right? Getting you new tools having to
• 29:42
  do all this and I am came into actually I gave a presentation
• 29:46
  yesterday and it was Was looking back to look forward.
• 29:49
  It was a saying, you know, if you go back to the 90s, he
• 29:53
  started rolling on applications within organizations, every
• 29:57
  application had its own identity store.
• 29:59
  Well, obviously that you were get, we knew we were going to
• 30:02
  get to a point where people couldn't log in and have, you
• 30:05
  know, independent identity stores in every app.
• 30:08
  How do you hire someone? And then, you know, they change,
• 30:11
  they change roles and now you have all these orphaned
• 30:14
  accounts, right? So that change the way the birth
• 30:17
  of do Factories. Again, all this stuff was built
• 30:21
  for productivity and that was back in the time where we were
• 30:23
  like hey everyone loves us, no one's going to do any harm just
• 30:28
  let them in, it's fine. I mean there's a reason why
• 30:31
  cybersecurity is taken so long to get where it is today.
• 30:34
  What I would actually what I tell people today is I'm a cyber
• 30:37
  security and identity professional I started my career
• 30:40
  out in security and defense and I got into identity after.
• 30:43
  But even the identity kind that I got into personally was more
• 30:47
  of like Like, pki crypto. And then, I, and then I learnt
• 30:51
  all the other like, governance and all the other, all the other
• 30:53
  bits and pieces. After that, was my view.
• 30:56
  I mean, some people say, well, we're always doing identity
• 30:58
  because we have active directory integration, you're like okay,
• 31:01
  no, that's not, that's not identity.
• 31:04
  It's a little part of it, but it's not identity.
• 31:07
  So, I think now I would actually just disagree with you.
• 31:13
  I understand the concern, it's good to have that concern, but I
• 31:16
  think now, We're getting to the point and that's why we use, why
• 31:20
  I proposed the term Fusion, because once we fuse these
• 31:23
  things together, the market, so big shirt, you can have
• 31:27
  Specialists that still do some identity functions that still
• 31:30
  do, you know, discrete cyber security functions.
• 31:33
  But as a whole to a seesaw, to a CIO to an organization and their
• 31:37
  board who care about cybersecurity now, identity is
• 31:40
  inseparable from it, it it needs to be fused in order to be
• 31:44
  successful as a digital organization going Forward and
• 31:48
  protect privacy of your customers, your employees, all
• 31:50
  your constituents. These two things have to be
• 31:53
  fused. You cannot, you cannot have any
• 31:57
  look, the case in point, like the vast majority of all the
• 32:00
  attacks, our identity ransomware are ransomware attack.
• 32:05
  I tell people, I'm like, that's not a malware issue, and they
• 32:07
  look at me, like, I'm a Madman. I'm like, it's not an hour
• 32:10
  issue. It uses malware, right?
• 32:14
  It is a piece of malware but it's actually what, what, it's
• 32:17
  In is rights and entitlements of your users..
• 32:22
  If you have right size access and you block out critical
• 32:25
  things you know and you're monitoring behavior of those
• 32:29
  users. You can catch these things.
• 32:31
  And by the way, I had over 36 37, engagements with customers.
• 32:36
  When I was like Gartner, that caught ransomware and they
• 32:39
  caught it because they were mot, they will one, they Shrunk the
• 32:42
  attack surface because they did right size access for everybody.
• 32:45
  And then they were monitoring user behavior and when they saw
• 32:48
  that a user one case was a user would access may be say 100
• 32:52
  files an hour and then this one user is accessing 30,000 files
• 32:56
  of less than five minutes. Okay maybe they're maybe they're
• 33:00
  migrating something but they're like right what's going on here?
• 33:02
  And they're like oh it's actually encrypting it's going
• 33:06
  to ruin encrypting stuff, you can't catch that if you are just
• 33:11
  looking at like you know malware and you can't catch that if
• 33:13
  you're just looking at like you know, MFA and SSO.
• 33:17
  You're going to miss it so you can bring those two worlds
• 33:20
  together. So I could go on and on but a
• 33:23
  ransom when I think you're, I think you're making great
• 33:26
  points. I think the shift to the cloud,
• 33:31
  they sound like super generic or what, but the shift to the
• 33:34
  cloud, especially to software as a service has been the number
• 33:39
  one driver of, you know, you hear the term identities, the
• 33:43
  new perimeter. And it's like yeah but nobody.
• 33:47
  Turning off their firewalls. However, if you have Salesforce
• 33:53
  applications or workday or things like that, the part of
• 33:57
  security that you can control is the identity.
• 34:02
  And if you have good controls over your identity, you can keep
• 34:05
  your application secure. If you don't have good controls
• 34:08
  of your identity, I'm sorry. But you cannot keep your that
• 34:12
  that's a nuanced, right? So I kind of feel like, yeah.
• 34:17
  Hot resume wants though is its Horton, people have to
• 34:21
  understand that, so that the don't dismiss, you know, the
• 34:25
  soundbite of identity is the new perimeter.
• 34:30
  Yeah, I agree because we could get lost like, zero.
• 34:34
  Trust is one of them. You know, I love the concept,
• 34:39
  I'm a fan of nist, 800, 2007, and totally nerding out there
• 34:44
  and shout out to like Chase Cunningham because I love the
• 34:46
  work that that and John kander bag.
• 34:48
  Like all the work that That they have done.
• 34:51
  But the problem I saw with it was, you know, you know, Jim to
• 34:55
  your point with like identity is the new perimeter is that people
• 34:59
  get sucked in into the moniker. And what I've seen is special,
• 35:02
  as your trust is lazy logic and go.
• 35:04
  Well, I don't need to trust anything.
• 35:06
  Like, okay, no, that's not what it means.
• 35:08
  That's not what it means. Is that like, say I always say
• 35:12
  this, I said this on stage many times, and I knew I was
• 35:15
  presented, a lots of financial institutions are like, you guys
• 35:17
  have to do kyc, right? They are Really uh-huh.
• 35:20
  Yeah, I'm like think about the language there for a moment you
• 35:25
  have to know your customer, you can't be like a zero trust,
• 35:28
  don't let you in right? You have to establish and
• 35:32
  maintain trust with your customers and their devices.
• 35:35
  And all the software applications, they use to
• 35:37
  connect into your digital services.
• 35:39
  And so to me, that does come back to identity is the new
• 35:42
  perimeter, because that is the common threat for humans and
• 35:45
  machines, and I love the point. You made him, it's like look, We
• 35:50
  know the odds are against us. Okay?
• 35:52
  We got hybrid multi-cloud environments for most modern
• 35:55
  Enterprises. We've got hundreds, it's not,
• 35:58
  maybe even thousands of applications running and each
• 36:01
  one of those applications has millions of lines of code.
• 36:06
  It's just probability, like, the odds are against you.
• 36:10
  You will have breaches, you will have vulnerabilities.
• 36:14
  You will have people penetrate into your network.
• 36:17
  So the game has to be about The and that resiliency has to start
• 36:22
  with identity at the center. Like, if you know who or what
• 36:24
  you're dealing with, that's always the best place to go back
• 36:28
  to whenever there's issues, right?
• 36:30
  You can shut everything down, but make sure you can you can on
• 36:33
  board your users, reset their accounts, get them back online
• 36:37
  as quickly as you can, because yes, applications will be
• 36:40
  vulnerable operating systems will fail and it just it, that's
• 36:44
  just the nature. Anyone who hasn't recognized
• 36:47
  that now, you know, is Like they're fooling themselves and
• 36:51
  again it goes back to the fusion of identity and cybersecurity
• 36:56
  and again I think Henry Kay said it at the conference he said
• 37:00
  solar winds going back. Few years ago, I sold the
• 37:02
  solarwinds attack that was a wake-up call for I am
• 37:04
  professionals because it's like, you know, those tokens.
• 37:08
  I mean, you want to own a network?
• 37:10
  You do your recon? You're like, oh, I'm using sam'l
• 37:12
  assertions. I'm like, I can break that.
• 37:15
  I can break that and send fake ones through.
• 37:17
  Right. So, hey, I'm black.
• 37:20
  Hang on but I know I think that sometimes the podcast for me
• 37:23
  becomes like the Airing of Grievances you know Festivus my
• 37:28
  grievance that are marrying here, I think is z and you
• 37:32
  brought it up perfectly zero trust because I've had cisos or
• 37:36
  people who work for the season don't put zero trust in that
• 37:39
  deck because you know he's sick of hearing about zero trust.
• 37:43
  It's like that's one of the most important concepts for
• 37:48
  information security. That's come our way in the past
• 37:51
  20 years. I mean, it's like, it's at the
• 37:54
  level of least privilege, right? It's that important.
• 37:57
  Yeah. And identity of the new
• 38:00
  perimeter isn't at that level of importance, but it's
• 38:03
  significant, right? It's meant to be brief and to
• 38:06
  the point so that it sinks in the problem is like when you
• 38:11
  hear it over and over again, it's on every marketing, slick
• 38:13
  it just becomes noise and becomes annoying and it becomes
• 38:17
  like you just don't want to hear it anymore.
• 38:20
  And I don't have a solution. Wow.
• 38:24
  Yeah. I think it's an issue.
• 38:25
  Well yeah. We blame for this though.
• 38:26
  Like you know we've got a vendor in front of us here Jim like
• 38:30
  it's you know I feel like this is something where every vendor
• 38:32
  in the identity space latched onto SEO and said o 0 trust is
• 38:37
  high right now. Let's do that.
• 38:39
  And now you know I was at RSA last year if I if if I took
• 38:43
  anything away from that conference it was at 0 0, trucks
• 38:45
  to solve. Because there is a product now
• 38:47
  for everything that I need to do 40 Trust Yeah, that's it.
• 38:51
  Yeah yeah yeah. I mean look I I'll comment on
• 38:55
  certainly what I've seen and then fenders I've advised and
• 38:58
  organizations I've advised it's it's a double-edged sword,
• 39:03
  right? I mean for we even saw this with
• 39:07
  Cloud your, when we're trying to figure out what that was they
• 39:10
  were like, oh, it's I asked past and sauce, okay, that's Cloud.
• 39:13
  But even still today when people say cloud, would you really mean
• 39:16
  when you're saying that and it's the same thing with zero trust
• 39:19
  or any of these? Big terms, you have to
• 39:21
  understand the client's understanding.
• 39:24
  So I'm a big fan of definitions to make sure that when we talk
• 39:28
  about something you're talking about apples, I'm talking about
• 39:31
  apples. Let's make sure we're on the
• 39:32
  same page before we move ahead with this conversation.
• 39:36
  But yeah, I mean look they I think the conundrum is is the
• 39:41
  vendors, you know, want to use it, the SEO perspective, they if
• 39:45
  they're not using it, you know, it can be problematic because
• 39:49
  sometimes You get people who are just saying we and companies did
• 39:53
  have this mean IVM told the anecdotally couple of years ago
• 39:56
  they ran a survey was like fifty one percent or fifty two percent
• 40:01
  of the people. They surveyed liked zero, trust
• 40:06
  that the moniker and the rest 48 percent say said no, they hate
• 40:11
  it because it's been overused. So they're like, what do you do?
• 40:14
  So something like we just have to, but grudgingly use the term,
• 40:18
  maybe not overplay our hand. Ever use the term so we get
• 40:22
  people but let's try and make make sense of it.
• 40:26
  But I think look, I there's no one now in today's day and age
• 40:33
  with most segments of identity in cybersecurity that are purely
• 40:37
  a green field. Everyone has overlap.
• 40:40
  And so, that's also part of this too, is that, you know, everyone
• 40:44
  can argue their piece of the puzzle 40 trust that they solve.
• 40:48
  And by the way, there's no. No, 10 trust vendor.
• 40:51
  If you look at nist 8:00, 2007, it's the framework, there's a
• 40:55
  control plane. And on the left hand side and
• 40:58
  right hand side of the core architecture, if you scroll down
• 41:00
  several pages into the into the documentation, there's identity
• 41:04
  management, there's pki. There's Sim there's data access,
• 41:08
  right? No one does all of that in one
• 41:11
  one product. So, you know, you can say we are
• 41:16
  as we do zero trust identity management, or we follow zero,
• 41:19
  trust principles. Mol great but that's all you can
• 41:23
  say right? So I unfortunately there's going
• 41:28
  to be more of this. Maybe not zero trust but it's
• 41:31
  like what's the term going to be next year, right?
• 41:33
  And the year after - trust. So that's that's mine.
• 41:39
  Yeah what was he like it'll be interesting and I'd any verse I
• 41:42
  know you guys will be there and I think this will be a great
• 41:45
  topic for you guys to look at like what's going to be
• 41:48
  prominent on the show floor? Or is there going to be
• 41:50
  something you're going to run? I will venture to say that we're
• 41:53
  going to see a lot of itd. Our identity threat detection
• 41:57
  and response. Whatever that's going to mean to
• 41:59
  everyone because everyone has different definitions.
• 42:01
  I think Jim that one's going to be the next one.
• 42:05
  You know the next zero, trust it at least in the identity space,
• 42:09
  I can get behind that. I think I tdrs is about to have
• 42:12
  a moment. It seems to me like it's a
• 42:13
  little bit of a cough rehashes, the weight weird, but something
• 42:17
  like UAB UAB a and you ba From, you know, five six, seven ten
• 42:21
  years ago, right? It's like okay great idea, let's
• 42:25
  use Behavior, analytics, and take all this data that were
• 42:27
  collecting through our IGA and Pam and access management
• 42:30
  platforms and do stuff with it. Yeah, big fan always been a big
• 42:33
  fan but I don't think the market at the market.
• 42:36
  I don't think organizations were ready for that and we're still
• 42:39
  seeing organizations that are doing things by hand.
• 42:42
  They fax in someone's on-boarding and off-boarding,
• 42:46
  right? They're setting a new message.
• 42:47
  Someone it's not automated, right?
• 42:49
  Things like that. That and you need a baseline of
• 42:51
  data and solid processes to make those behavioral analytics work.
• 42:56
  Effectively? Yeah at least I'm excited to see
• 42:59
  this time around if it catches on a lot better.
• 43:01
  I hope I hope we're better along organizationally yet large and
• 43:06
  be able to take advantage of things like that.
• 43:08
  I want to point back to one thing you said because I'm a big
• 43:10
  fan of level setting and when you said you have to Define, are
• 43:14
  we using the same definitions of what we're talking about?
• 43:17
  I think that is a huge point because there are Much context
• 43:20
  as times goes into things where you and I can be talking about
• 43:24
  similar things, but similar is not the same and that can lead
• 43:28
  to a lot of questions, concerns things like that.
• 43:30
  So I just wanted to point that out that I'm a big fan of, you
• 43:34
  know, are we talking about the same thing or not?
• 43:36
  And this goes back to the conversation.
• 43:38
  We had, I don't know 50 episodes ago, where we said.
• 43:40
  What's the difference between digital identity and identity
• 43:43
  and access management and we got, you know, really smart
• 43:45
  people who are in the business been around for a while, guess
• 43:48
  what? Nobody had the same.
• 43:49
  And everyone had a different definition which I thought was
• 43:52
  really interesting. So I think there's still
• 43:53
  something that, you know, we as a community still need to think
• 43:57
  about and I'm a fan of context, it depends on who you're talking
• 44:01
  to. When I say, I am, I'm talking to
• 44:03
  David mati that's going to mean. One thing, I'm talking to my
• 44:07
  wife or Jim's dad, as we like to throw out as an example, it's
• 44:09
  going to mean something different, right?
• 44:11
  Yeah. So I think you have to be able
• 44:12
  to know that context for the, for the conversation and use
• 44:17
  those context clues, to make sure that you Speaking the same
• 44:21
  language, not a similar language.
• 44:23
  Yeah, exactly. No.
• 44:25
  I agree. Because I mean a lot of my
• 44:29
  presentations depending on what it is I will usually start start
• 44:33
  with definitions. It's like I know this might seem
• 44:35
  boring. I know you might seem like you
• 44:37
  know it but you know there's one actually going to be delivering
• 44:41
  a presentation at identity, identity identity verse sorry on
• 44:46
  chat. Gbt and when it has to do with
• 44:47
  kind of identity and security and What are the threat
• 44:50
  researchers are seeing with it? And a part of that presentation,
• 44:55
  I Define what it is because, you know, especially with a topic
• 44:59
  like that especially with the hotter the topic or and or the
• 45:04
  moniker. I think sometimes the the more
• 45:06
  Divergent the definitions are I saw it as an analyst.
• 45:10
  I saw it happen with Cloud. I saw it happen with zero trust
• 45:14
  and I and even John W who shout out to John W Gartner analyst
• 45:18
  used. Curry was the law.
• 45:19
  Zero trust wolf at the Gartner. I am conference and I asked him.
• 45:24
  He's like, I'm still, I spent a lot of time just having to just
• 45:27
  like, kind of peel peel it back and and then get people to to,
• 45:33
  you know, buy into the definition, we have together and
• 45:36
  then we can March forward, right?
• 45:38
  So it really, you know, I mean, I think kudos to you guys for
• 45:42
  focusing on that too and I think that will give you guys a lot of
• 45:47
  wiggle room to with future. Just, you know, you just you
• 45:51
  just pick the the the moniker toujours.
• 45:55
  Firing trademarked, I tell you this letter.
• 45:56
  I gotta do like, AI at the center or something, it's
• 45:58
  something. Yeah, exactly.
• 46:00
  Right. Exactly, exactly.
• 46:03
  So I wanted to actually change the topic completed and I know a
• 46:06
  lot of folks listen to the podcast.
• 46:08
  When they're out for the walk, they do a 45-minute walk and
• 46:11
  we're probably around that time. At this point.
• 46:15
  This will be the next night that's just walk farther.
• 46:17
  Walk farther block, farther lat. Are there?
• 46:20
  Yeah yeah. So I wanted to pick your brain.
• 46:24
  So think put your analyst hat back on.
• 46:28
  Okay. And I want to talk about, you
• 46:31
  know we go back and forth, this. Something that we spend so much
• 46:34
  time talking about on this podcast difference between I am
• 46:38
  and see I am I am being, you know, Workforce enterprise-c.
• 46:43
  I am being customer citizen constituent, what however you
• 46:47
  want to Define it. Would you even those?
• 46:49
  Those are quite different, but a lot of the same use cases,
• 46:52
  Enterprise has a lot of similar use case, bde CIMB to see, has a
• 46:59
  lot of similar use cases whether citizens or customers, right?
• 47:04
  There's the registration authentication.
• 47:06
  Etc. Yep.
• 47:08
  The one like, which of these ones is not like the others is B
• 47:12
  to B. And that what I wanted to ask
• 47:14
  you is sick. So now you got bde b2c.
• 47:20
  A EP. Where was be to be more like is
• 47:24
  it like b2e or b2c? I think it's smack in the middle
• 47:30
  because look, let's just go to the edges.
• 47:34
  Let's just say it's a spectrum that goes from left to right and
• 47:37
  the Spectrum. Now we're going to measure on
• 47:39
  here. Would be like, how much control
• 47:43
  that you would have? Now, if you're an employee, it
• 47:45
  depends on the jurisdiction, you're working.
• 47:47
  But if it's United States, or Canada, or most of the West, you
• 47:50
  signed an employee agreement. And so if the organization wants
• 47:54
  you to wear a clown wig, when you come Min as long as it's not
• 47:58
  violating any like you know, privacy rights or whatever.
• 48:01
  You have to wear a calm way when you come into work because
• 48:04
  that's what they're asking to do, if I put that into identity
• 48:08
  terms and might mean you have to vow shall use a smart card to
• 48:11
  login. Now shall, you know, have to
• 48:14
  authenticate to every single application every single time
• 48:17
  you go in, that's the policy. That's what they have or we shut
• 48:20
  down. USB access to your machine and
• 48:24
  you can whine and complain about it if you don't like it, go
• 48:27
  somewhere. Russ and go work at another
• 48:29
  company, right? So that's the deal when it comes
• 48:32
  to D to e. If we if we go B to see whether
• 48:36
  it's citizen or consumer, you know, if you're an identity
• 48:40
  leader at a government or a financial institution, you're
• 48:44
  effectively managing your users with your hands, tied behind
• 48:46
  your back, sure. You want to make sure that
• 48:49
  you're doing certain things to protect them, protect their
• 48:51
  privacy and ultimately, you got to protect the brand of your
• 48:53
  organization because you don't want breaches happen.
• 48:56
  Otherwise, they won't come back. But you know, they you do have
• 49:00
  to do like password list and MFA and all these things but you've
• 49:04
  got to do it in such a way that it you're prioritizing their
• 49:07
  experience, you're making that experience really good for them.
• 49:10
  So they don't get you know, fatigued.
• 49:13
  So and then you have to think of yeah, things like CCPA in GDP.
• 49:17
  Our privacy like you can't hordes data on these people
• 49:20
  anymore because you don't own them.
• 49:23
  They're not yours. They're they're they're your
• 49:26
  customers or your citizens. So that to me is one of the the
• 49:29
  biggest differences and also to like Banks, not going to send
• 49:34
  you a laptop or mobile phone and say, use this.
• 49:38
  When you login back in the day, they used to send tokens and
• 49:41
  stuff, but they're not doing that anymore, right?
• 49:44
  So like you're using your own Hardware to access all their
• 49:47
  stuff, contrast that to two organizations.
• 49:50
  Share. There's some organizations that
• 49:52
  have bring your own device. Bring your own PC, bring your
• 49:54
  own Mac, whatever might be, but the vast majority of
• 49:56
  organizations, Still managed by Fleet but they managed by Fleet
• 50:00
  it's theirs. They can do whatever they want
• 50:02
  with it. They can put it on, you know,
• 50:05
  use a Enterprise Mobility management and block, things
• 50:09
  monitor traffic, do all that you can do that with consumers.
• 50:13
  So that's the that's the difference on the edges, BB's in
• 50:16
  the middle, okay? Because you could get
• 50:19
  contractors and partners that need some fairly substantial
• 50:23
  access into your environment. A case in point would be like,
• 50:28
  Department of Defense are accessing like Lockheed Martin
• 50:32
  or Boeing. These are organizations that
• 50:35
  work very closely with DOD right but they're independent public
• 50:41
  organizations, you know? And so they're like okay we'll
• 50:46
  give the vice versa will give them some kind of level of
• 50:48
  access but not too deep and oh, by the way, we can push some
• 50:52
  policies on them but we can't be too aggressive because they're
• 50:56
  not our employees. They're Parker's.
• 50:59
  So yes there's agreements legal agreements that are signed to
• 51:01
  ensure some kind of trust but again they can't be as they
• 51:06
  can't go as be as forceful, let's just say as they could
• 51:10
  with their own employees on the flipside.
• 51:12
  Because it's almost like a Venn diagram, right?
• 51:15
  Where they do overlap on the side of where B2B overlaps with
• 51:18
  be to see, that could be gig workers.
• 51:21
  It could be other kind of contractors or Partners where,
• 51:24
  you know, again you want them to access your systems to down.
• 51:27
  Marketing, collateral or tools or whatever, but you want to
• 51:31
  make it easy for them because especially safe your channel
• 51:35
  partner. If you're a vendor and you want
• 51:37
  Channel Partners to log into your portals, to access sales,
• 51:40
  collateral or whatever you make it difficult for them to log in.
• 51:45
  You know, it mean, if you're not the only vendor in town, they're
• 51:48
  going to potentially go to someone else.
• 51:50
  If they can get pricing, get quotes easier.
• 51:52
  If you're not, making them jump through hoops.
• 51:53
  So so I think all in all there's privacy.
• 51:57
  Cern's and all the security concerns but I think it comes
• 52:00
  down to two usability and there's more usability Focus.
• 52:05
  I think on the b2c B2B side of the equation then there would be
• 52:11
  on the on the ve side. Yeah, I kind of feel like one of
• 52:17
  the things I took from your answers to kind of depends,
• 52:19
  which is the, the famous Consulting answer.
• 52:22
  Yes. And analyst answer to, by the
• 52:24
  way. So, is it all right?
• 52:26
  That was the second thing. They teach her at Gartner, and
• 52:29
  probably forced her and others to their like, it depends.
• 52:33
  Remember that Turf that's her. There's no sticky.
• 52:37
  You know, the answer to that question.
• 52:39
  Probably depends on the use cases because I think of like
• 52:43
  some bees Our B2B scenarios where it's like, hey, we just
• 52:47
  want to give this partner access to our SharePoint, or we want to
• 52:53
  give some of the partners, you know, account.
• 52:56
  So they can log in and you're going our VPN and use our
• 53:00
  project management tools. Yep, to me, though.
• 53:03
  That's like simple. That's just a minor extension to
• 53:06
  bde the real use case scenarios, I can should I actually think
• 53:11
  that B2B can be much more More complex than Peter.
• 53:16
  See, I think the authentication scenarios are pretty similar.
• 53:21
  And by the way, I think in the B2B scenario, you have a lot of
• 53:27
  traditional thinking, why don't think you have a lot of it
• 53:30
  today, is it maybe some people still think those, but the idea
• 53:33
  of being able to use Federation will, can we just fed her to do?
• 53:37
  Have our partners Federico is well, if you have two or three
• 53:41
  of them, and they have an IDP sure.
• 53:43
  But if you have Hundreds or thousands or they're very not
• 53:46
  very complex. Yep.
• 53:48
  From an IT perspective like Federation is just not going to
• 53:52
  answer the whole question. We're going to have to have user
• 53:56
  management, exact that we've had Federation for a long time.
• 53:59
  Yeah. We've had, I guess I'll reach
• 54:01
  knowledge has been around for a while and problem-solve, right?
• 54:04
  We just saw the song years ago exactly.
• 54:07
  Now, if you do traditional user management or you do delegated
• 54:11
  Administration, that's where it gets.
• 54:14
  Has a really hairy because I don't think there are very many
• 54:16
  commercial products but that'll be kind of my next question to
• 54:19
  you. But getting into the those hairy
• 54:22
  scenarios for managing those user populations, creating
• 54:27
  those, whatever user Journeys or administrative screens or the
• 54:33
  process flows for how to allow your customers who are
• 54:38
  businesses manage their own users, and do it in a way that
• 54:44
  Okay, when they actually have somebody leave their
• 54:46
  organization, they cut off their access because probably not
• 54:50
  going to be tied to their HR System, all those things, you
• 54:56
  know. I think that B2B identity access
• 55:00
  management is, is the toughest egg to crack.
• 55:04
  Yeah, yeah, I think your point, you know, like, on the It
• 55:10
  depends is really important but just some examples, right?
• 55:15
  When I was at Gartner. And even now today is so run, a
• 55:18
  number of round tables all around the world but some that,
• 55:22
  that state of my head on this topic, as a Gartner, analyst I
• 55:26
  would run workshops and they were only for practitioners,
• 55:29
  right? And there were a lot of these
• 55:32
  like car car manufacturers that were in there and that one's an
• 55:36
  interesting one. So this is just one in one case,
• 55:38
  right? To be to be where they're like,
• 55:39
  okay, Oh gosh. Cars are getting much, much more
• 55:42
  software oriented, he got updates, they all kinds of
• 55:45
  things on the plus. Obviously all the traditional
• 55:48
  Hardware combustion engines or even if they're hybrid or
• 55:50
  electric whatever the dealers are like independent
• 55:56
  organizations that have their own it and have their own thing
• 55:59
  and they need access into those Supply chains to be able to
• 56:03
  access all the software updates, all the training, materials, all
• 56:07
  of that stuff. And so, you know, Some of these
• 56:10
  were very big, very well-known prestigious companies that I met
• 56:14
  with. And they're all concerned about
• 56:16
  the model and actually, some of the things we talked about, you
• 56:20
  know, everyone did their is like this obsession with, like
• 56:22
  decentralised identity which, you know, I myself and my Kelly
• 56:26
  and others that Carter we helped kind of defining get that on the
• 56:28
  hype cycle. But it's like, okay, this isn't
• 56:31
  really ready for this stuff yet, you know, and we can solve some
• 56:35
  of this with Federation all those.
• 56:36
  But I think I think Jim to your point the scale the Governance
• 56:40
  starts to get complex and it also were also delving into
• 56:45
  another area of like machine identities as well.
• 56:48
  When we think about all the operational technology the the
• 56:51
  the all the different kinds of devices.
• 56:54
  Because in the end, I am has been focused just on humans and
• 56:58
  that's great. But guess what?
• 57:00
  Even as we're doing this podcast here today, how many machines?
• 57:04
  And I'm talking like container software applications, and
• 57:07
  actual physical devices that have to Tend to cater to each
• 57:10
  other. How many, how many machines do
• 57:13
  we think are between all of us now, right now, just in
• 57:17
  recording, this podcast, tons of them and they all live and die
• 57:20
  and they all need to be able to authenticate that to me, is also
• 57:23
  the next Frontier that we need to include in BB d e, and B to
• 57:27
  C. And that, just further further
• 57:30
  complicates the notion of governance and authorization and
• 57:33
  authentication. So I think you know, again it's
• 57:38
  it is appropriate that That that we that we have folks, like,
• 57:41
  yourselves and you continue to lead the charge with identity at
• 57:44
  the center because I think the next Wave 2 is also going to be
• 57:48
  machine identity going Beyond human?
• 57:51
  Well, I've written article, it's interesting or if this article
• 57:55
  about the human population, you know, it's we here to come from
• 57:59
  five billion, six billion. So 47 billion.
• 58:02
  Now, at some point in the next 10 years, I think it'll be 8
• 58:07
  billion. This article claimed, but it's
• 58:11
  going to probably top out around eight billion, not because the
• 58:14
  Earth doesn't have the resources.
• 58:16
  But that the level of which people are adding new, you know,
• 58:21
  having children just going to top out.
• 58:24
  And that by the end of the century, it'll still be around
• 58:27
  eight billion people. Hmm.
• 58:29
  If this articles right so With all this technology and where we
• 58:33
  expect technology to be. You know, 100 years from now or
• 58:39
  whatever, 875 years from now. It's going to take so many
• 58:46
  people. I like are we prepared to manage
• 58:49
  that? And it's I think what's going to
• 58:51
  have to happen is the humans are going to have to layer up, layer
• 58:55
  up, layer up. Just like I mean think about
• 58:57
  when we got into it, most organizations, had people who
• 59:02
  would manage the servers and they would do these things.
• 59:04
  And then, eventually they out, Source that now they have people
• 59:08
  who just managed through our console.
• 59:11
  The I'm like, yeah, thousands of companies just managing all
• 59:15
  their data center through our console.
• 59:17
  And, you know, that one companies doing all that stuff,
• 59:20
  you know, running the data center.
• 59:21
  So I think especially with AI, it's what the level up, level
• 59:26
  up, level up because we're you're bringing on or what
• 59:28
  you're talking about is like it's just becoming more complex
• 59:31
  and it's like what? We can't just increase the
• 59:33
  number of people who actually get it, it kind of feels In some
• 59:37
  ways like Society getting Dumber.
• 59:40
  So, yes, will we even be able to get like how all those people
• 59:44
  that actually understand know? Because the number of
• 59:46
  identities, the number of processes that are running is
• 59:50
  just going to exponentially grow larger, something like
• 59:54
  technology like AI is going to have to run at all and then a
• 59:58
  few the same number of humans fewer humans, I'm not sure.
• 1:00:02
  We'll have to run the AI. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:04
  II think you're edging on. On on where we might see
• 1:00:10
  ourselves. I was gonna make a joke about
• 1:00:11
  Ray Kurzweil I think is Ray Kurzweil.
• 1:00:13
  It's a lie, you know, you know what, at least maybe in our
• 1:00:16
  lifetime will be able to upload our self and no computer.
• 1:00:18
  So maybe that will be the reason why we flatten out at 8 billion
• 1:00:21
  and maybe go down because we go Eli's working on it.
• 1:00:24
  Yeah. You was working on it right.
• 1:00:25
  Your old lady can all this stuff.
• 1:00:27
  So maybe we'll eventually just be uploaded into machines.
• 1:00:31
  Like that show. Am I an Amazon Prime?
• 1:00:34
  Upload is basically that same concept.
• 1:00:35
  Yeah, that's right. I have a slightly different view
• 1:00:38
  point on it. Jim, I think you're right in
• 1:00:41
  that identity is will grow over time don't just be gross General
• 1:00:45
  growth, but I think it will be a much more elastic growth with
• 1:00:48
  the rise of machine identities, being created and destroyed and
• 1:00:52
  being very ephemeral as workloads need exists and no
• 1:00:57
  longer need to exist. So I think you'll see like much
• 1:01:00
  larger bands of you know Peaks and valleys versus that
• 1:01:05
  consistent kind of growth, I think that will be the growth.
• 1:01:07
  Oath. But I think you're going to see
• 1:01:08
  much bigger swings and like points of time like today, we've
• 1:01:11
  got 500 tomorrow. We've got 100.
• 1:01:14
  And then it's like, 1,000 and then it's like 200.
• 1:01:16
  And it's like, it just going to go back and forth because of
• 1:01:18
  that ephemeral nature of machine identities.
• 1:01:22
  Especially if we get to a point where you don't have standing
• 1:01:24
  privileges all the time. You don't have these service
• 1:01:26
  accounts to just sit around doing nothing until they're
• 1:01:28
  called on them to get created. They do their dot needed, to
• 1:01:31
  know, they do their job and then they get deleted or removed or
• 1:01:34
  whatever it may be. Now if that's until Sentient AI
• 1:01:37
  takes over but gently, I agree in just kind of just taking a
• 1:01:42
  little bit of a commercial aspect here.
• 1:01:45
  When I think about things like pricing, I think if you think
• 1:01:48
  about the ramifications of that, it's like, well, we have to
• 1:01:50
  change our pricing models because, you know, I think even
• 1:01:53
  in the identity space if you're charging by user or your
• 1:01:55
  charging by connection, right? It's like the these things just
• 1:01:59
  get out of hand, I had work with vendors as an analyst coaching
• 1:02:04
  them on pricing models and stuff.
• 1:02:07
  Tough. They're like, oh, we're going to
• 1:02:08
  charge like / certificate, like who you're going to.
• 1:02:12
  You're going to charge $200 per entity.
• 1:02:16
  Like so they're using a Coronet, he's cluster.
• 1:02:18
  They've got like and not a lot six situation where they're like
• 1:02:22
  a thousand containers and then today, then tomorrow they have
• 1:02:26
  to like but you going to charge up at the 2000 or the the
• 1:02:30
  potential that they could go all the way up to 20,000.
• 1:02:33
  Like I don't understand how we're going to square that Peg
• 1:02:36
  but We need to solve that and I know with mobile device
• 1:02:39
  management when that came out like they did start charging
• 1:02:43
  people per device. They went wait a minute, a lot
• 1:02:45
  of people have like a tablet and a laptop and a mobile phone.
• 1:02:49
  It doesn't make sense to charge one user three times, right?
• 1:02:52
  Just go by user. So I think we're also going to
• 1:02:55
  have to have a recomputation of all these pricing models.
• 1:03:01
  And and I am seeing that by the way because Gartner analyst we
• 1:03:05
  you know, we would do a lot of pricing.
• 1:03:07
  Reviews and all this, like I had, I had a pricing curve and
• 1:03:10
  my head for OCTA and for duo, like, someone could tell me what
• 1:03:12
  they were, what their size were and I knew because I always had
• 1:03:15
  plotted their prices out. I see that's another way in the
• 1:03:19
  market that we see changing as well.
• 1:03:21
  I see a lot of customers saying, like, Okay, we want to do
• 1:03:24
  something but I'm concerned about the scale of these
• 1:03:27
  projects and what this is going to be my budget and if I
• 1:03:30
  actually can do it. So I think, I think, I think
• 1:03:33
  it's upon ourselves to look at how we could recompute.
• 1:03:37
  That on the, on the commercial side of things.
• 1:03:39
  And by the way, I also agree with what Jeff said about the
• 1:03:43
  end, ephemeral IDs being created and destroyed.
• 1:03:46
  I think the challenge that I see as an IM practitioners like, how
• 1:03:52
  do I know they you're creating only the accounts that you need
• 1:03:56
  and you're destroying them and I think that's bringing it back to
• 1:03:59
  itd our conversation VY T gr can start to set some rules around
• 1:04:05
  that and say all right, Well, you created these accounts and
• 1:04:08
  they did this, and broke whatever rules, and they raise
• 1:04:13
  the flags because things are happening so quickly they're
• 1:04:17
  happening at much faster, over the scale than humans can
• 1:04:20
  control those. Ephemeral IDs can't be managed
• 1:04:24
  like, you know, like the human ideas are created in the human
• 1:04:29
  resource system, and I move down to an IGA.
• 1:04:32
  You could always you can't keep up.
• 1:04:34
  You have to have the AI technology watch.
• 1:04:37
  Over it with rules that spits out alerts or takes action?
• 1:04:42
  Because maybe alerts isn't going to be fast enough.
• 1:04:46
  Yeah, yeah. If this accounts are being
• 1:04:48
  created because a hacker got control of the system, by the
• 1:04:52
  time you spit out an alert and people start calling people,
• 1:04:56
  your system might be all encrypted.
• 1:04:58
  Yeah, yeah. Here's something scary for you.
• 1:05:00
  What if we get to the point where these workloads exist
• 1:05:06
  faster than Than a millisecond. So if you think about it, even
• 1:05:09
  if you are watching your screen if it was faster than Ms. The
• 1:05:13
  majority of people would never wouldn't even see it because
• 1:05:16
  you're re your mind or refresh rates is at 60 hertz typically
• 1:05:18
  at least in the u.s. Yeah.
• 1:05:20
  So what if you were creating faster workloads than one
• 1:05:24
  millisecond? Yeah, you wouldn't get dizzy yet
• 1:05:27
  even if you stared at the screen and didn't blink in 24 hours a
• 1:05:31
  day, you still wouldn't see it. It's entirely possible because I
• 1:05:35
  mean, look, even when I don't want to do.
• 1:05:37
  Bring us down a on a tangent here but we don't do that on
• 1:05:41
  this world. You do not at all nothing but
• 1:05:45
  like, you know, Quantum Computing and things where like,
• 1:05:48
  you know, the dimension of Time start to start to get a little
• 1:05:51
  bit funky. But, but just even when we think
• 1:05:53
  about modern day computer architectures, whether they're
• 1:05:56
  they're, you know, risk based processors or whatever they're
• 1:06:01
  sequential and, you know, one powerful thing with human.
• 1:06:06
  Beings is that we can model things and you know we can
• 1:06:10
  conceptualize it and we use analogies in our own heads we
• 1:06:13
  go. Okay I get it I understand this
• 1:06:15
  and then we can take something and scale it you know shrink it
• 1:06:18
  whatever it might be but we're horrible, we are absolutely
• 1:06:23
  horrible at predicting the future.
• 1:06:26
  We suck at it, we do that. Like I know people say futurists
• 1:06:31
  and you know, hats off to them but most of the time people suck
• 1:06:33
  at predictions and there's a reason for that and Gartner.
• 1:06:37
  I was so fortunate to go in a future prediction course, at
• 1:06:40
  Gartner and we talked about why and it's just we get in our own
• 1:06:45
  lens and I think we also getting a lens with time as well, when
• 1:06:49
  when, you know, Jeff you're mentioning that we have a review
• 1:06:52
  of time and I know this is crazy, right?
• 1:06:54
  But when people are like, hey I imagine if we met aliens and
• 1:06:58
  they had the ability to think like, you know, 1 million
• 1:07:02
  thoughts in a time, it would take us to think one thought.
• 1:07:06
  That's what a computer is like, right?
• 1:07:08
  So it's not insane to think that you could have a machine that is
• 1:07:11
  doing something malicious, which we have malware doing this kind
• 1:07:15
  of stuff today. But if we take this to another
• 1:07:17
  level in theory, that could happen and these are, you know,
• 1:07:20
  this is what people are concerned about with generative
• 1:07:22
  Ai and and then feeling that with all different kinds of
• 1:07:25
  things. But yeah, it we're going into an
• 1:07:27
  interesting world where look, you know, I covered machine
• 1:07:30
  identity management at Gartner and I would say look there are
• 1:07:35
  Really really good approaches and practices that we can take
• 1:07:39
  from Human identity management and governance and apply it to
• 1:07:42
  machine. But there's that whole other
• 1:07:44
  level that both of you are talking about the ephemeral
• 1:07:47
  nature and the nature of like time Dimension and even when you
• 1:07:51
  start to get into other funky use cases, it can really, it can
• 1:07:54
  really break. The I am models we have today,
• 1:07:57
  so we have to be prepared for that.
• 1:07:59
  I'm not saying people need to freak out and Run to the Hills,
• 1:08:01
  but I think organizations that can at least think about the
• 1:08:05
  thoughts. Maybe in the future, and it's
• 1:08:07
  not that far away, you know, we'll just be better prepared
• 1:08:10
  for it now today. So David, I am impressed.
• 1:08:15
  You went a whole podcast without saying process but yeah, you did
• 1:08:21
  say, identity verse twice. I did, I did.
• 1:08:26
  So our Ledger note that we're going to transition to is about
• 1:08:31
  Canada but I'm going to hand it over to Jeff because I don't
• 1:08:34
  remember exactly how We're going to word the question.
• 1:08:37
  And by the way, though, it's all good.
• 1:08:39
  The the curtain is always about, at the identity of Sarah podcast
• 1:08:44
  is, Jeff comes up with these questions.
• 1:08:46
  So I got to fight for to my very weird mind or what is in my
• 1:08:52
  Consciousness at the moment. And somebody out there is
• 1:08:55
  probably walking like, oh my gosh, you guys are over an hour.
• 1:08:57
  Like my legs are tired. Stop talking.
• 1:08:59
  Stop talking, stop talking. All right, so, let's wrap things
• 1:09:01
  up with a lighter note and in honor of David, Honor of our
• 1:09:06
  Canadian friend. I'd like for you to teach us
• 1:09:09
  some Canadian slang that we can take back somewhere, something
• 1:09:14
  that we can use in our everyday lives.
• 1:09:16
  I have spoken about the show before in my about my love of
• 1:09:20
  Letterkenny on Hulu and I loved ijen for degenerates.
• 1:09:25
  Yep, they had other folks out there so I'd love to hear
• 1:09:28
  something from you David. What's a good Canadian slang
• 1:09:31
  word that we can take back. I'm going to make it very Very
• 1:09:35
  simple. And I'm going to use the
• 1:09:38
  infamous eh-eh and I'm going to give you some use cases or
• 1:09:46
  scenarios where it can be used. Now out what I live in Ottawa
• 1:09:50
  Canada which is considered more of the Eastern side of Canada.
• 1:09:53
  It's not the East Coast because that's further away Nova Scotia
• 1:09:57
  and Newfoundland. I'm in Ontario but I border
• 1:10:01
  Quebec newfies. We say.
• 1:10:03
  That's what's that new Roofies. I think I know the new fees.
• 1:10:06
  Yes, they have a language into their own, lovely accent but out
• 1:10:12
  west like Alberta they tend to say heyy like, hey, but most
• 1:10:18
  Canadians that the infamous term is th now.
• 1:10:21
  How can you use this? It is an extremely versatile
• 1:10:25
  term. It can be a question like hey
• 1:10:28
  Jim, you know, why is, you know, it'd be like why is your hat
• 1:10:33
  ready? Question mark.
• 1:10:36
  So I could you could you could append it to a question.
• 1:10:41
  It could be a part of a statement.
• 1:10:43
  So be like you're wearing a red hat.
• 1:10:44
  Hey, Right. So it could be used there.
• 1:10:50
  There are offensive ways you could use that as well, but I
• 1:10:54
  it's a very versatile Canadian term and I find myself sometimes
• 1:10:58
  especially when I'm traveling in the US.
• 1:11:00
  I was in Boston last week and I was with a co-worker and I think
• 1:11:04
  I said, this is a soul, was giving me a shirt was a Transit
• 1:11:07
  security shirt know, like you don't have one take it and I was
• 1:11:10
  like, this is a nice shirt a and I realize I said it and I'm like
• 1:11:14
  wait was that more of a question or I It was a statement in that,
• 1:11:18
  in that case. So so there's your little here,
• 1:11:20
  a little taste of Canada. Sorry, I can't virtually give
• 1:11:23
  you maple syrup or ice line. But those were Canadians who in
• 1:11:27
  the very good, but I can give you the the use cases of eh or a
• 1:11:34
  I appreciate that. Jim I here's here's I'm going to
• 1:11:37
  throw a gauntlet challenge to you.
• 1:11:38
  You and I were going to go do an executive presentation about a
• 1:11:42
  week for a client. I will buy you dinner.
• 1:11:46
  If you can work a somewhere into that presentation, I love it
• 1:11:50
  with the clients. Okay, but you're in buy me
• 1:11:52
  dinner anyway, maybe we'll see. I need the idea if it could be
• 1:11:59
  documented, maybe it. Maybe he'll be under NDA.
• 1:12:02
  Then I would love love. Hear how you used it so I can
• 1:12:06
  evaluate the usage of it. I'll have to report to do a
• 1:12:09
  follow-up segment on that one Jim.
• 1:12:11
  So there will be Witnesses for sure and I think we have a
• 1:12:13
  couple listeners who might be there so they might be in on the
• 1:12:16
  joke but maybe we'll see if we can work that way and pull it.
• 1:12:19
  Okay, people's legs are tired, people's mouths and ears are
• 1:12:22
  probably tired as well. So I've gotta save my favorite
• 1:12:25
  kind of show. Oh, you got one.
• 1:12:26
  Okay, that's good. Oh yeah, yeah, Trailer Park,
• 1:12:28
  Boys champ. Trevor watching a long time, my
• 1:12:31
  kids really got into him or watching it like crazy and I had
• 1:12:34
  To like, look up. What was a funny saying from
• 1:12:37
  that show? And I've remembered the one
• 1:12:40
  guy's name is Ricky and his favorite Chinese dish was sweet
• 1:12:44
  and power chicken. Then I appreciate it because it
• 1:12:49
  was like, you know, I I recently got my hearing aid but before
• 1:12:53
  that I would get like I would make mistakes like that.
• 1:12:56
  I'm sure. Amazing.
• 1:12:58
  Amazing classic shows. Excellent.
• 1:13:01
  We love it. What we hear that Canadian has
• 1:13:03
  Friday. South Border.
• 1:13:06
  Is that a good thing? Good.
• 1:13:07
  Okay. I don't want to do like, you
• 1:13:08
  know, I think so. I think so.
• 1:13:09
  Hey but I feel like that's also a little bit in the Northern
• 1:13:11
  parts of the US. You know, we've got, we've got
• 1:13:13
  Wisconsin like that area. Yeah, we've got our mascots, you
• 1:13:16
  know, Ryan Reynolds. It could don't, you know,
• 1:13:18
  Michaels. No.
• 1:13:19
  Don't, you know, a, you know, a Georgia Boy.
• 1:13:22
  Are you guys watching T chance? So we're going to start to wrap
• 1:13:25
  things up here. I guess, let you know, before we
• 1:13:28
  go, make sure, people know about it in averse, use our code,
• 1:13:31
  it'll be in the show notes, 20% off, you know, I got a few days
• 1:13:34
  left. For the early bird there, we're
• 1:13:35
  on the web. Idac, podcast.com, we're on
• 1:13:38
  Twitter at IDC podcasts. We're also an acid on at idac
• 1:13:42
  podcast at infosec that exchange, we're going to have
• 1:13:46
  links to David's LinkedIn profile.
• 1:13:49
  I'm sure he's always happy to take questions and tell him how
• 1:13:53
  you're using a maybe in your life based on this discussion
• 1:13:56
  also like to transmit security transmit security.com, a link to
• 1:14:00
  your book as well. Hopefully Marcel gets a version
• 1:14:03
  that has a table. Intense in it.
• 1:14:05
  And we'll review his rating at some point and also obviously
• 1:14:08
  hoping to identify us as well. So Jim and I were on LinkedIn
• 1:14:12
  all the time. So feel free to connect with us.
• 1:14:14
  We're always happy to talk shop, engage get ideas for shows or
• 1:14:18
  even just, you know, send each other emojis and memes.
• 1:14:21
  I'm almost about that as well. So also want to give a shout out
• 1:14:24
  to, I believe it's Leah, but she wrote a nice review of us on
• 1:14:29
  Apple podcasts. She said it's making security
• 1:14:31
  fun and it's rare that discussions around cybersecurity
• 1:14:34
  are Areas keep it up guys. She's clearly very easily
• 1:14:37
  entertained if she thinks this stuff is funny but we do
• 1:14:40
  appreciate her. You know, putting that out there
• 1:14:42
  so I hopefully I got that. I tried to do some sleuthing
• 1:14:45
  around the name and I think that's who that is.
• 1:14:47
  So we if that's you, thanks so much and that's how you can help
• 1:14:50
  us as well, right? Leave us a rating.
• 1:14:51
  Leave us a review, subscribe, all that good stuff and we'll
• 1:14:54
  keep the stuff coming your way. So with that, we'll go ahead and
• 1:14:57
  leave it there for this week. Appreciate everyone for
• 1:14:59
  listening. David.
• 1:15:00
  Thank you so much for taking the time.
• 1:15:01
  Let's start the weekend off and Go get ourselves a bottle of
• 1:15:06
  poppers or something like that. And thanks everyone for
• 1:15:09
  listening. Take care.
• 1:15:12
  You've been listening to Identity at the center.
• 1:15:15
  We hope you've enjoyed the show, make sure to like rate and
• 1:15:20
  review and we'll be back soon, but in the meantime hit the
• 1:15:23
  website at identity at the center.com and find us on
• 1:15:28
  Twitter at idac podcast. See you next time on identity.
• 1:15:34
  I'm at the center. I'm at the center.