Latest / Story Magic / 139 - Navigating parasocial relationships online

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139 - Navigating parasocial relationships online · Story Magic

2:27
Emily: Hey, writers, welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
2:32
Rachel: I'm Rachel.
2:33
Emily: And I'm Emily.
2:34
Rachel: And today we're talking about online relationships between authors and readers.
2:40
Emily: And.
2:41
Rachel: And I think this is a little bit of a warm topic, a hot topic, a medium temperature topic recently, but there is a discussion of this kind of parasocial relationship that is often created between an author and their reader.
2:59
Rachel: So let's talk about that today.
3:02
Emily: Yeah, I mean, it's not just in the book industry.
3:07
Emily: I feel like we're navigating this.
3:09
Emily: I mean, we have been navigating it, but I feel like now with the term parasocial relationship and like, with what we're seeing just online right now, basically what we're talking about is this new world we're living in where you have as a consumer.
3:27
Emily: Right.
3:27
Emily: We have access to people that we don't know.
3:35
Emily: And it can feel like we know them.
3:37
Emily: Like, we joke about this all the time with the podcast.
3:40
Emily: Right.
3:40
Emily: Like, people feel like they know us because they listen to this podcast.
3:44
Emily: Right.
3:44
Emily: And it's like, you know, we do know the people in our community.
3:47
Emily: Like, we do have relationships with those people, but there's plenty of you who listen who aren't in our community that we don't know at all.
3:53
Emily: Right.
3:54
Emily: And I have that same parasocial relationship with the podcasters that I listen to.
3:59
Emily: I'm thinking of Ve Schwab right now.
4:01
Emily: I don't know her, she doesn't know me.
4:03
Emily: I feel like I know all about
4:05
Rachel: her because of what she says online,
4:07
Emily: but I know her, I know her online.
4:10
Emily: Like, like what she chooses to portray as who she is online.
4:14
Emily: Right.
4:16
Emily: And so that.
4:16
Emily: That's what a parasocial relationship is, is when it we.
4:21
Emily: It's this like one one sided kind of relationship.
4:25
Emily: Right.
4:25
Emily: Am I getting this definition wrong?
4:26
Rachel: That's understanding of it.
4:28
Emily: I'm like, I didn't.
4:29
Rachel: I was so I was gonna look up a definition.
4:34
Emily: An actual definition.
4:36
Emily: Yeah.
4:36
Rachel: Parasocial interaction refers to a kind of psychological relationship experienced by an audience in their mediated encounters with performers in mass media.
4:45
Emily: Yes. Okay, got it.
4:46
Rachel: According to Wikipedia.
4:49
Rachel: According to Wikipedia, no, you're not wrong at all.
4:52
Emily: There's just moments where you're like, wait, do I know what this word actually means?
4:57
Rachel: But there's like, they're very complex in some kind.
4:59
Rachel: Like, there's positive, they're negative.
5:01
Rachel: I. I do feel they're.
5:04
Rachel: They're.
5:06
Rachel: So this article again, on Wikipedia goes on to describe them as Illusory.
5:10
Rachel: Illusory.
5:11
Rachel: Like they're illusions.
5:12
Rachel: Right.
5:12
Rachel: They're not real, but they feel real because you're able to witness someone else's online presence or their media presence, a
5:21
Emily: slice of their life and who they portray themselves to be.
5:25
Rachel: Right.
5:26
Rachel: And then we feel as if we have a reciprocal relationship with them, but we don't.
5:32
Emily: Yes.
5:33
Rachel: It's, you know, it's not real.
5:37
Emily: So in some ways this can be cool.
5:39
Emily: Right?
5:39
Emily: We have more access to each other and our creators than ever before.
5:43
Emily: In a lot of ways, it can be real freaking toxic.
5:46
Emily: And so somebody, someone brought us this topic inside of the tenacious writing community, asking for advice, kind of navigating these relationships online from the author's sort of.
6:00
Rachel: Yeah.
6:01
Emily: Side or perspective, from our point of view.
6:05
Emily: What is the side of things?
6:05
Emily: I don't know.
6:07
Emily: I'm mixing, I'm mixing all these phrases.
6:09
Emily: But.
6:11
Emily: But yeah, like when you're planning to put your books into the world and you are creating an online Persona.
6:17
Emily: Right.
6:17
Emily: I mean, we are all performing online in some way, shape or form.
6:20
Emily: That's just.
6:21
Emily: That is how it is.
6:22
Emily: And so when we choose to be on social media especially, you are performing in some way.
6:30
Emily: And so how do you navigate the parasocial relationships that are going to come out of that and the potential sort of highs and lows of that?
6:40
Rachel: Yeah, well, because, you know, thankfully.
6:44
Rachel: So when before Emily and I started recording this topic, this one really stood out to me personally because I do have a lot of readers that I communicate with really frequently, like a lot in my Instagram DMs.
6:58
Rachel: And thankfully, I have not had many negative experiences with this.
7:05
Rachel: I know authors who have had very negative experience with this especially.
7:09
Rachel: And in my own parasocial relationships, right.
7:11
Rachel: With like the big name authors.
7:14
Rachel: I know other big name authors will talk about this on their accounts that are like, stop doing this to me.
7:20
Rachel: Like, stop treating me this way.
7:22
Rachel: So I think it can be positive and negative.
7:25
Rachel: I think my following is probably small enough right now that most of my interactions have been positive.
7:31
Rachel: But I also, since we're familiar with the work that we do at Golden May, we do have a public presence.
7:41
Rachel: We do have a community that we're very involved in.
7:44
Rachel: We do touch a lot of people.
7:46
Rachel: Like, as far as our interactions with them, we email people all the time.
7:50
Rachel: Like, I don't.
7:53
Rachel: I have always been very open to receiving these kinds of interactions.
7:59
Rachel: You know, I mean, like when, when I started my author work or my, my author Instagram, et cetera, I was already a book Coach.
8:07
Rachel: We already had a podcast, you know, so it wasn't scary to me to be communicating with people that I don't really know, because that's kind of our job.
8:19
Rachel: But what will happen.
8:20
Rachel: What this, like, looks like for me is usually someone will read my book or they'll come across me online, and then they'll send me a pretty personal message.
8:32
Rachel: That's, like, how my book impacted them or, like, what they think of me.
8:38
Rachel: There's, like, in a positive way, there's, like, a running joke that I have with my readers.
8:42
Rachel: So my pen name is R E May, and people have started to call me Rachel Evil May.
8:48
Rachel: Like, the E stands for evil.
8:50
Rachel: So I have, like, quite a few people that will actually come into my vents and be like, oh, my God, you're so evil.
8:54
Rachel: And, like, it's a joke.
8:56
Rachel: I know it's a joke.
8:57
Rachel: It's.
8:57
Rachel: But if.
8:58
Rachel: If a stranger walk up to me and said that to me, I would be like, who the are you?
9:01
Rachel: What are you talking about?
9:04
Rachel: You know?
9:04
Rachel: So I think I might be fairly open compared to a lot of other people.
9:13
Rachel: So I'm saying.
9:14
Rachel: And this is not necessarily how I think people should approach it.
9:17
Rachel: Yeah. I just think I have a lot of comfortability online.
9:22
Rachel: Yeah. And I don't know if that's the case for everyone.
9:25
Rachel: But in a roundabout way, what I'm kind of trying to say is that the question of navigating this, I think, comes down to boundaries.
9:33
Emily: Yes.
9:33
Rachel: But you will get people.
9:35
Rachel: You will get people who will just say things to you and, like, no. No filter, no feedback, and they blow off me pretty easily.
9:45
Rachel: Like, I'm not too concerned about that.
9:46
Rachel: I do get pretty personal messages.
9:48
Rachel: I had one reader last year who was, like, tagging me in a lot of things and, like, sending me a lot of messages.
9:57
Rachel: And, like, I. I feel like that's probably the only negative experience that I've had so far.
10:01
Rachel: And it just ended up becoming like, this person was more not sharing a kind note.
10:07
Rachel: They were like, you're my friend, and I know you, and I'm going to be sending you all these things.
10:14
Rachel: And it wasn't, you know, hurtful.
10:18
Rachel: It just was a lot.
10:19
Rachel: So, thankfully, I've not had that.
10:22
Rachel: But I do think in a parasocial relationship, people end up creating expectations of you.
10:28
Rachel: And I think on the negative spectrum of things, that's where, for me, it does get uncomfortable where people have, like, these expectations.
10:35
Rachel: On, like, right now, I'm getting a lot of people asking me, like, when is Fallon's book coming out and I'm like, I have no idea what's going on in my life right now.
10:45
Rachel: It's not coming out.
10:46
Rachel: Like.
10:47
Rachel: And I. And I'm not going to tell you everything.
10:49
Rachel: Go listen to podcasts.
10:51
Rachel: Yeah, yeah, you can find out what's going on in my life.
10:54
Rachel: But I think the entitlement is usually where parasocial relationships turn negative, is when people think that because they see your public presence online that they are entitled to a piece of you or a piece of your work or that their opinion has some bearing on your choices.
11:11
Rachel: Yeah, yeah.
11:13
Emily: And where I see this go downhill is when, I mean, there's a couple of ways this can go downhill for others, I think, but one of those ways is when the author feels a responsibility to their readers.
11:31
Emily: Yeah, they're cutting trees again.
11:33
Emily: Can you hear them?
11:35
Rachel: No.
11:35
Emily: Okay, cool.
11:37
Rachel: We can continue.
11:38
Rachel: Yeah. If you hear any trees cutting, everybody, ignore it.
11:41
Emily: They're cutting trees outside my house right now.
11:45
Emily: So, yeah, when you feel like you, like, you don't have a response, like, you don't owe your readers a single thing.
11:53
Rachel: No, you don't.
11:53
Emily: You could turn off all comments and all messages on your social media if you want to.
11:59
Emily: That is your, like, you have the right to do that.
12:03
Emily: You don't owe them anything.
12:04
Emily: Like, they, yeah, you wrote a book, they paid for it.
12:08
Emily: The end.
12:08
Emily: Right.
12:09
Emily: So everything that's beyond that is entirely up to you.
12:14
Emily: And I think that, like, and there is no. I personally don't think that there's any harm in doing less and having stronger boundaries.
12:25
Emily: Like, you are not going to lose anything by setting boundaries in these relationships.
12:30
Emily: The only thing you'll lose is if you want to do it.
12:33
Emily: Like you were just saying, like, there are situations in which you want to be talking to your readers because you enjoy it.
12:38
Emily: It brings you something.
12:40
Rachel: I like it.
12:40
Rachel: That's.
12:41
Emily: That's the only reason I think that anybody should engage in those relationships.
12:44
Emily: Like, you shouldn't feel like just because you're an indie author or just because you're, you know, you blew up on trad.
12:49
Emily: That you owe your readers anything you don't want to give them.
12:52
Emily: Like, that's just not.
12:54
Emily: These are strangers on the Internet.
12:55
Emily: They don't know you.
12:56
Emily: They're not entitled to know you.
12:58
Emily: They are.
12:58
Emily: You, you are entitled to give them nothing.
13:01
Emily: So I just want to make that really clear from the get go, because there are ways that you can navigate this, but I think if it's giving you any kind of angst, like, pull back, you can always like, let people in a little bit more.
13:13
Rachel: Right?
13:13
Emily: But, like, you can, like, start with really solid boundaries.
13:16
Emily: Start with an understanding of what you're comfortable with.
13:19
Emily: Because if you give too much of yourself, the only person that's gonna harm is you.
13:26
Rachel: Right?
13:26
Emily: And we've seen, like, on the Internet, how people can snap, right, When. When they get too mired in some of this.
13:37
Emily: It's hard.
13:38
Emily: I think it's really hard because we.
13:41
Emily: I mean, we've been through this.
13:42
Emily: You're, like, trying to create this personality for yourself on the Internet, right?
13:46
Emily: Like, that's what we're all trying to do to sell our.
13:49
Rachel: Right.
13:49
Emily: It's like, who.
13:50
Emily: We didn't want to do this, right?
13:52
Emily: But by doing that, like, people are going to have misunderstandings about you.
13:56
Emily: I was just talking to author friends the other day who were getting frustrated because some of their readers were starting to say that they were a kind of person that that author does not believe that they are.
14:07
Emily: Like, they were essentially saying, like, you are this person, but they're like, no, I'm actually this person.
14:11
Emily: Right?
14:11
Emily: But, like, I can't.
14:13
Emily: It's not your job to, like, change that person's perspective of who you are.
14:18
Emily: Right?
14:18
Emily: Like, you don't know them.
14:19
Emily: They're a stranger to you.
14:20
Emily: You're a stranger to them no matter how much they think that you're not.
14:23
Emily: But that's still, like, difficult.
14:26
Emily: Like, it's emotional.
14:27
Emily: It's gotta be, like, real weird to be Sarah J.
14:30
Emily: Moss and, like, have the world have all these assumptions about who you are and what you care about, what your values are, what your days are like, you know, like, all this stuff, they're, like, eating apart every one of your words.
14:40
Emily: Like, that's gotta be really weird.
14:43
Rachel: Yeah.
14:44
Emily: And the only.
14:46
Emily: Like, you can't change that.
14:48
Emily: You can't.
14:48
Emily: I guess what I'm trying to get at is you can't change how people perceive you.
14:52
Emily: Really, like you.
14:54
Emily: You don't have any power over that.
14:56
Emily: You can change how you present and what you want to share and how much of yourself you want to share and how you like, how you want to, quote, unquote, perform.
15:05
Emily: Right?
15:05
Emily: Like, you can.
15:06
Emily: Those are the things you can decide.
15:08
Emily: But it's kind of like how you can't control how readers are going to read your book and what they're going to feel and think about it.
15:13
Emily: Like, you can't change how people are going to see your online presence and what they're going to say about it and assume about it.
15:19
Emily: Like, people are going to assume Crazy shit.
15:22
Emily: It's just.
15:25
Emily: That's on them, it's not on you.
15:28
Emily: So. Yeah, I don't know.
15:30
Emily: It's tricky.
15:31
Rachel: Yeah. I think this.
15:33
Rachel: I do think that, like, this is another aspect where I think my writing mindset has come into handy because the whole idea of, like, being really worried about how you come across to other people, it could.
15:48
Rachel: It can be.
15:50
Rachel: I don't want to say that it's always, but it can be rooted in, you know, like, needing validation or needing love or wanting acceptance or belonging or.
16:01
Rachel: Or whatever.
16:02
Rachel: You know, whatever part of you feels triggered by the idea that someone might not like you and not that those things can't be triggering or upsetting.
16:11
Rachel: Like, if someone would come into my DM and be like, I hated your books and I hated everything that you stand for, and I don't like you, you know, Like, I would be upset by that, but it wouldn't shake, like, my foundational beliefs about myself and, like, my value and my worth.
16:28
Rachel: And I. I also feel that way about my books where, like, if someone did come into my books or to my DMs and be like, I hate that you have queer relationships in your books.
16:39
Rachel: I wouldn't be ashamed of that.
16:40
Rachel: Right.
16:40
Rachel: Like, I think I've made a lot of intentional choices.
16:44
Rachel: Writing a book is just making hundreds and hundreds of choices.
16:48
Rachel: And if you could reach a point where you know that those choices, number one, you're proud of them.
16:54
Rachel: But also, number two, like, the reception of your book doesn't reflect any, like, your.
16:59
Rachel: Of your worth or value as a person.
17:02
Rachel: I think it's easier on the author side to set the boundaries that make you the most comfortable.
17:07
Rachel: Right.
17:08
Rachel: Like, there are.
17:09
Rachel: There are plenty of times where I probably, in practice, am way too accessible.
17:14
Rachel: Like, if I get a DM from a reader, I'm like, oh, my God, let me see it.
17:17
Rachel: I gotta respond right away.
17:18
Rachel: Right?
17:19
Rachel: Like, I'm.
17:20
Rachel: I'm, like, looking at my messages, especially because arcs are out right now.
17:24
Rachel: So. So this is very touchy for me where I'm like, I want people to praise me.
17:30
Rachel: I want people to tell me how much they love my book because all the arcs are out right now.
17:37
Rachel: But that is.
17:40
Rachel: That's not based in, like, my need for someone else to approve of me.
17:46
Rachel: That's, like, based in my excitement for what's happening right now.
17:52
Rachel: And I think doing a lot of work in, like, my own relationship with myself made it easier for me to, number one, be excited about showing up.
17:59
Rachel: But to, also, number two, know when, like, I'M not gonna respond to this.
18:04
Rachel: You know, I'm not gonna.
18:05
Rachel: There's no point in engaging with this kind of message, you know, that.
18:10
Rachel: That kind of thing.
18:10
Rachel: Or if you're, like, feeling.
18:15
Rachel: If you're.
18:15
Rachel: If you're able to have, like, a healthy relationship with yourself and love yourself and.
18:19
Rachel: And you don't want those messages, turn your messages off.
18:22
Rachel: Who cares?
18:22
Rachel: You know, I just think you can make probably stronger decisions for what makes you more comfortable if you can do some of that inner work.
18:33
Emily: Yeah. Because us people pleasers are going to set boundaries based on what we think other people are going to want from us.
18:38
Emily: Right.
18:39
Emily: Versus what we actually want.
18:40
Emily: And so you have to work through that, people pleasing first to get to the point where you know what you want your boundaries to be and you can, like, stand by them from a place of confidence.
18:49
Emily: Right. If you're.
18:50
Emily: If there's still a voice in the back of your head being like, but people won't like me if I set boundaries right, then, like, you're not going to be able to set the boundaries that are going to make you comfortable.
18:58
Emily: So I think you're totally right.
19:00
Emily: All the mindset work is super important for setting you up for success here, because the more that you have those inner critic voices that are afraid of rejection and afraid of people not liking you and afraid.
19:13
Emily: Right.
19:14
Emily: It's like, who cares if a bunch of strangers don't like you?
19:17
Rachel: Yeah. You know, honestly, I feel like this is where I see things go sour.
19:21
Rachel: I mean, I'm on.
19:22
Rachel: I'm on Threads.
19:24
Rachel: I was just joking about this with our marketing meeting the other day.
19:26
Rachel: We have a meeting in TW into Tenacious Writing where we discuss marketing.
19:31
Rachel: And we were talking about this Monday, today's Wednesday.
19:35
Rachel: Threads is an app that is like Instagram's version of Twitter, if you're not familiar with this.
19:43
Rachel: But Threads is where all the drama is.
19:46
Rachel: So if you want, like, the latest hot takes in the latest book drama, that's where you can find it.
19:52
Rachel: So usually when I get caught on Threads, I'm like, reading all the drama, and every so often, there's this drama of, like, either a reader feeling like they're not getting from the author what they want.
20:06
Rachel: Right.
20:07
Rachel: Which is that that side of the parasocial relationship, or it's an author being like, stop being weird at me.
20:17
Rachel: So then there's, like, comments on both sides of things.
20:21
Rachel: So if you want to see all the drama, go on Threads.
20:24
Rachel: But I think, like, when I see authors who are, like, in a very negative place.
20:37
Rachel: Personally, I can see it in the way that they talk about this.
20:41
Rachel: Do you know what I'm saying?
20:41
Rachel: Like, a while ago, there was.
20:45
Rachel: There was some book drama.
20:47
Rachel: I'm not going to get into the specifics, but there was some book drama where an author was being criticized and they clearly took it very personally.
20:57
Rachel: And rather than probably saying, I'm not going to engage with this, it was very much like, I'm going to blast you and defend myself.
21:05
Rachel: And then also in every comment after that to anybody else, I'm going to be defending my choices as an author.
21:13
Rachel: And in that case, like, yeah, social media is going to feel incredibly toxic.
21:17
Rachel: Like, if you always feel like you're being attacked and you don't know how to turn it off or to not engage, the negative side of parasocial relationships are probably going to be pretty draining.
21:29
Rachel: Right.
21:29
Rachel: Like, pretty mentally impactful.
21:34
Rachel: I do see authors who are like, I can't.
21:37
Rachel: It. It like crumbles their world if they get a dm that is, that is like criticizing or whatever.
21:45
Rachel: And, And I hate to see that.
21:47
Rachel: Right.
21:47
Rachel: Like, I hate to see that because the mindset doesn't need to be like that, you know?
21:52
Rachel: And on the, on the reader side, is that acceptable?
21:56
Rachel: No, no, it's.
21:57
Rachel: It's never acceptable for a reader to come into your DMs and personally attack you.
22:02
Rachel: It's not.
22:03
Rachel: And number one, you don't have to engage with any reader and any place.
22:08
Rachel: But number two, if you, if they're, if this is becoming a negative experience, you don't have to keep engaging.
22:17
Rachel: You don't have to defend yourself.
22:18
Rachel: You don't.
22:19
Rachel: You can block them.
22:19
Rachel: Just block this person and like, move on with your life.
22:22
Emily: Yeah.
22:24
Rachel: But, yeah, I think it's like, pretty heartbreaking.
22:27
Rachel: Heartbreaking for me to see other authors being really negative and we impacted by parasocial relationships when I can see the only reason that they're so negatively impacted is because they're having an inner critic that's like, incredibly loud in that moment.
22:43
Emily: Yeah.
22:43
Rachel: And I would rather see them rather than maybe turn off their DMs, which is valid and okay.
22:49
Rachel: And block them.
22:50
Rachel: I would be like, hey, why don't we figure out why that's so upsetting to you in that moment?
22:55
Rachel: Like, yeah, because you probably turn off
22:57
Emily: your DMs to figure that out.
22:58
Rachel: To figure that out.
22:59
Rachel: Yeah, for sure.
23:01
Emily: If you feel like you're in that place.
23:03
Emily: I feel like, go ahead, turn it all off until you figure out your mindset.
23:06
Emily: Stuff.
23:07
Emily: Like, you gotta.
23:08
Emily: I think that voice is so important.
23:10
Emily: I've been hearing.
23:11
Emily: I think it's important, too, to talk about the difference between these parasocial situations.
23:18
Emily: Because what we're talking about is when readers reach out to you.
23:21
Emily: Right.
23:22
Emily: When they are.
23:23
Emily: When they are trying to have these relationships.
23:26
Emily: What we're not talking about is reviews.
23:28
Rachel: Exactly.
23:29
Emily: Yes. I just want to draw a distinction there, because reviews are for readers.
23:32
Emily: How?
23:32
Emily: I don't know.
23:33
Emily: We'll say this on every episode if we have to.
23:35
Emily: They are not for you.
23:37
Emily: And I've been finding a lot of, like, readers are allowed to say whatever they want to say in a review.
23:46
Emily: They just are.
23:46
Emily: Even if they completely misunderstand your book.
23:49
Emily: 100.
23:50
Emily: And it seems like they didn't even read it.
23:51
Emily: Right.
23:52
Emily: Like, that is.
23:52
Emily: They are allowed to do that.
23:55
Rachel: Yes. There is etiquette that they're not supposed to tag you.
23:58
Rachel: Okay, so that's different.
23:59
Rachel: It is inappropriate in a negative review that they post online.
24:04
Rachel: Right.
24:05
Rachel: But, like, if you're reading your Goodreads and it's rattling you up and you want to comment back on that, that's not.
24:10
Emily: That is a you problem.
24:11
Emily: That is a you problem, not a reader problem.
24:14
Rachel: Get out of there.
24:14
Emily: I've.
24:15
Emily: I've heard a lot of authors lately complaining that people misunderstood their book and that they posted all these reviews.
24:23
Emily: And that can feel so incredibly triggering if you have a fear that that misunderstanding is going to drive other readers away.
24:30
Emily: Right.
24:31
Emily: But, like, you can't control that.
24:34
Emily: And, like, engaging with those people.
24:36
Emily: Not a good idea.
24:38
Emily: And I think one of the ways that parasocial relationships has kind of come up in this is.
24:43
Emily: I was just talking to someone who has their goodreads blocked.
24:46
Emily: Right.
24:48
Rachel: Speaking of which, I've got to go check my Goodreads.
24:52
Emily: They have their goodreads blocked, but they have a street team.
24:55
Emily: And that street team of authors who.
24:57
Emily: That is a parasocial relationship.
24:59
Emily: Right.
24:59
Emily: Your street team.
25:00
Emily: Like, you don't.
25:00
Emily: Unless you're, like, real good friends with some of the people in there.
25:03
Emily: Right.
25:03
Emily: Like, your bff.
25:04
Emily: Yeah. Is in there.
25:06
Emily: It's a parasocial relationship.
25:08
Emily: Um, and they are bringing reviews to them.
25:11
Emily: Being like, this person didn't get your book at all and this person didn't.
25:14
Emily: And like, that.
25:15
Emily: You have a responsibility in that moment.
25:17
Emily: If that's triggering you to be like, please don't bring these to me.
25:20
Emily: Exactly.
25:20
Rachel: Like, no, I didn't.
25:21
Emily: I didn't ask you to tell me about these bad reviews.
25:24
Emily: I didn't ask you to open this relationship, like, this conversation with me.
25:28
Emily: Like, you don't owe that person.
25:29
Emily: Even if they're on your street team and they're promoting your book, they made that choice.
25:33
Emily: You do not owe them a relationship in that moment to, like, put up with that shit.
25:37
Emily: Like, you blocked your Goodreads for a reason.
25:39
Emily: Tell them that.
25:41
Rachel: Yeah, I have.
25:42
Rachel: I have not blocked my Goodreads, but I have had other readers send me negative reviews and be like, oh, my God, I can't believe this person said that.
25:51
Rachel: And I'm like, well, thank you for now making it.
25:54
Rachel: Now that I'm aware of that.
25:55
Rachel: Thanks so much.
25:57
Rachel: And then I was like, they don't.
25:59
Rachel: No, they don't.
26:00
Rachel: They don't get it.
26:02
Rachel: I think it's the same way.
26:04
Rachel: So this.
26:05
Rachel: I would.
26:06
Rachel: I would.
26:06
Rachel: I'm trying to think of, like, other touchy since I. Since these tend to, like, brush off me fairly quickly.
26:12
Rachel: You know, I. I don't remember a lot of, like, the negative experiences, but in our notes, we wanted.
26:17
Rachel: We also wanted to talk about beta readers.
26:19
Rachel: So, like, I had given very specific beta feedback.
26:23
Rachel: Feel free to send me reactions on dms, but don't send me criticisms.
26:27
Rachel: And one of my readers was sending me, like, a lot of credit and, like, asking me for experts explanations of, like, why I wrote it that way.
26:33
Rachel: And that was really upsetting, like, that.
26:36
Rachel: I was like, hey, please save.
26:38
Rachel: You know, like, after having a lot of defensive responses, I mean, I know this person had good intentions.
26:45
Rachel: Right?
26:45
Rachel: They're on my beta team.
26:47
Emily: Yeah.
26:48
Rachel: But they were not following the specific instructions that I gave them.
26:51
Rachel: And they also thought in this relationship that they were being helpful.
26:55
Rachel: Right.
26:56
Rachel: They were like, I'm gonna.
26:58
Rachel: I'm gonna tell you why I'm confused by this and blah, blah, and I'm gonna tell you why this is wrong and blah, blah.
27:03
Rachel: And then I was like, that's not what I asked you for.
27:08
Rachel: Please stop.
27:09
Rachel: Like, save that.
27:11
Rachel: Thank you so much for interacting with me, but please save that for the form that I gave you on purpose, because I cannot handle in my DMs, your problems with my book.
27:21
Rachel: That's not the right place for this.
27:26
Emily: And they don't know that.
27:27
Emily: Right.
27:27
Emily: That's a boundary that we have to set.
27:28
Emily: And when somebody crosses that boundary, you can just ignore everything that they said and just be like, this is my, like, reminder.
27:35
Emily: These are my boundaries.
27:36
Emily: Right?
27:36
Emily: And you have to have those boundaries.
27:38
Emily: So that's why, like, when you send out instructions for a beta read or for arcs or for whatever, you.
27:44
Emily: You put the boundaries in that, and then you can be like, hey, I'm going to point back to this thing.
27:51
Emily: This is.
27:51
Emily: You know, these were my boundaries.
27:53
Emily: I don't have to explain my boundaries to you.
27:55
Rachel: No, right.
27:55
Rachel: You don't have to.
27:57
Emily: Unless you want to.
27:59
Emily: You can just be my boundary and then block them if they don't respect that boundary.
28:03
Emily: Like, you don't owe them anything.
28:06
Emily: I'll keep saying that you don't.
28:08
Rachel: And again, some of these have very good intentions, right?
28:10
Rachel: Like, they think this wasn't a person who was, like, in my DMs on me, right?
28:15
Rachel: Like, critiquing.
28:16
Rachel: They were just, like, thinking that they were being helpful in that moment, and it was actually incredibly upsetting.
28:20
Rachel: And then I was like, hey, there's a reason that I said, don't do this.
28:24
Rachel: Yeah, go save it for the form.
28:27
Rachel: But even that, like, I do think that too.
28:30
Rachel: You know, just another example, I've seen other authors, like, in the ARC period.
28:34
Rachel: So right now with ARCs, I am asking my ARC readers, if you find any typos, send them to me.
28:42
Rachel: I have had people in the past, and this is also on me, argue with me about grammar.
28:50
Rachel: And, like, I mean, I got.
28:53
Rachel: I. I have seen this happen to other authors.
28:55
Rachel: I have seen.
28:56
Rachel: It's happened to me.
28:57
Rachel: Someone sends me an email with this full explanation of why what I did was grammatically incorrect.
29:04
Rachel: And then, of course, it's on me to be like, hey, thank you in this person.
29:08
Rachel: I was like, I changed this, this, and this, and I'm not changing this, but thank you for your input.
29:13
Rachel: And I shouldn't have done that.
29:14
Rachel: Right?
29:15
Rachel: Like, I didn't mean to say you're wrong.
29:18
Rachel: I'm not changing that, but I did.
29:20
Rachel: And so then they came back with, like, no, here, you're wrong.
29:23
Rachel: Here's why it needs to be changed.
29:24
Rachel: And, like, who needs that in their life?
29:27
Emily: Nobody needs that.
29:28
Emily: Nobody needs that.
29:30
Rachel: But, like, can you imagine arguing with a stranger in their email about.
29:35
Rachel: I don't even remember what the grammatical convention was, but about gram.
29:38
Rachel: Like that.
29:39
Rachel: But that's the level to.
29:40
Rachel: Sometimes that these people go like, you're asking for their help.
29:44
Rachel: Yeah, you're asking for their help.
29:46
Rachel: It's a very genuine thing.
29:47
Rachel: But then if you don't take their help, it's suddenly a big deal.
29:53
Rachel: And on my side, I probably just should have been like, thanks, that's it. Or. Or nothing.
29:59
Rachel: Since I. I did ask, please send me typos.
30:02
Rachel: You know, I felt like it was appropriate to acknowledge the email that I received, but do I need this person to, like, give Me, a lesson in grammar?
30:11
Rachel: No. Do I care?
30:11
Rachel: No. And at that point I'm probably not changing it out of spite.
30:15
Rachel: Even if they are correct, I'm like, no, sorry.
30:17
Emily: Well, I just feel like this stuff can get real crazy.
30:20
Rachel: Like, I mean, it gets messy.
30:23
Emily: I mean there's, there's cases of stalking, there's cases of like just real abuse.
30:30
Emily: Like, there's, there's some crazy people out there, I mean, who are going to
30:33
Rachel: try to, like, people found Rebecca Yarros's address and like post it online.
30:39
Rachel: Like, how fucked up is that?
30:39
Rachel: That's another reason why we were talking about this in our marketing meeting on Monday.
30:45
Rachel: As private as you can make your information, make it that way, like before, if you're already in it, whatever, go back and try to fix it as much as you can.
30:54
Rachel: But like, one of the things we were talking about is when you get a newsletter, in your newsletter footer, you have to put an address.
31:01
Rachel: Everyone is required to put an address.
31:03
Rachel: The amount of times that I've seen authors put their real address in their newsletter footer, a lot.
31:10
Rachel: And like online safety, that's bad News bears for any online safety class.
31:16
Rachel: But also for a relationship such as ours or an industry such as ours where we, since we do publish books, we invite criticism, we invite people to comment on our books.
31:30
Rachel: Don't put your address out there.
31:31
Rachel: What are you doing?
31:32
Rachel: Yeah, and that's also why, like, if I'm posting pictures of where I live, there's never identifying information in there.
31:39
Rachel: Could someone find me?
31:39
Rachel: I bet they tried the hard enough.
31:42
Rachel: I bet they could.
31:43
Rachel: Right?
31:43
Rachel: Because like the Internet nowadays you're tagged and tracked everywhere you go.
31:47
Rachel: But just like consider that when you're perhaps setting your boundaries or when you're deciding what you want your online presence to be.
31:56
Emily: Yeah.
31:56
Rachel: That you are a public figure.
31:59
Rachel: You might be a tiny one.
32:00
Rachel: Right.
32:01
Rachel: Like, it's not like I have a gajillion followers.
32:04
Rachel: I'm certainly not Sarah J. Moss, but I am a public figure now because of what we do and also because of our email.
32:13
Rachel: So if anyone wants to go find this public figure, like anybody could do that.
32:18
Rachel: That's the Internet.
32:21
Rachel: So anyway, just like take precautions, I suppose.
32:24
Emily: Yeah, I think there's, there's a difference.
32:26
Emily: Right.
32:26
Emily: There's going to be the parasocial relationships where people just, well meaning people like you were just talking about, you know, take a relationship too far because in their head they know you better than they actually do.
32:38
Emily: Right.
32:38
Emily: Yes.
32:39
Emily: That's super normal.
32:40
Emily: Right.
32:40
Emily: If you listen to hours and on hours of somebody's podcast or you, you know, look at every single one of their posts and all of their stories, right.
32:48
Emily: You're going to feel like you know them the way you know your friends, right?
32:52
Emily: Yeah. And so them reaching out, especially in well meaning circumstances, in ways that overstep your boundaries, like, you don't have to be mean, you don't have to block them unless you want to, you have every right to.
33:04
Emily: But you know, you can explain yourself, you can reset your boundary, all that.
33:07
Emily: But then I think there are the ones that genuinely make you uncomfortable.
33:11
Emily: And so I think you need to think, sit with your gut.
33:13
Emily: It's like, is this upsetting me because this, this well meaning person crossed my boundary and I have a responsibility to reset that boundary, or is this uncomfortable because this person is asking more of me than I am willing to give?
33:25
Emily: Right. Yeah. The. In that circumstance, I think it's really important to know what your boundaries are and really important to follow your gut because when you give someone like that an inch, they're going to take a mile.
33:34
Emily: Right?
33:34
Emily: And that's, that's where dangerous stuff can happen.
33:37
Emily: So I think sitting with like, you know, as always, taking a pause and sitting with what's happened in the parasocial situation, that feels off to you.
33:48
Emily: And ask yourself, why does it feel off?
33:50
Emily: Like, that's a very important question.
33:53
Emily: Giving the other person, you know, a bit of the benefit of the doubt.
33:56
Emily: Like, did they, are they meaning well?
33:56
Emily: Or is this genuinely uncomfortable?
33:59
Rachel: Right.
33:59
Emily: And then following your, your boundaries and what makes you feel comfortable, I think just to kind of bring it back to the beginning, you owe your readers nothing, correct?
34:09
Emily: Absolutely nothing.
34:12
Emily: And so anything you choose to give them is up to you.
34:14
Emily: And so if you're not comfortable with it or you don't want to do it, don't, period.
34:19
Emily: Don't you just don't.
34:21
Emily: And there might be circumstances where you do want to be like, hey, like you're, I know you're really well meaning, but this boundary, like you gotta stop crossing this boundary.
34:28
Emily: Right.
34:28
Emily: Like, there may be times when you want to do that, but unless it's something that you genuinely want to do, I just don't.
34:34
Emily: I really just don't think you should.
34:37
Rachel: No, I mean, because it's just gonna
34:38
Emily: get gross real fast.
34:40
Rachel: It's like something that I want to do, but I'm also savvy about it.
34:44
Rachel: Right.
34:44
Rachel: Like, I think authors, when they go into this space are sometimes really wide eyed, bright, hopeful, you know, and like as they should be.
34:58
Rachel: But you also live on the Internet and the Internet is not wide eyed and bright and hopeful.
35:04
Rachel: It's weird.
35:06
Rachel: So I do like, there's nothing wrong with wanting to do it.
35:09
Rachel: Just be smart about how you do it and understand, understand the possibilities, you know. And I guess I, I can add that when I published my book in 2024, I had already seen plenty of my friends publish their books, right.
35:25
Rachel: And heard the stories and like seen the, the concerns and like watched that kind of happened.
35:32
Rachel: So I knew a little bit of what to expect.
35:34
Rachel: But if you don't, you don't know that or you don't know that, people get weird sometimes.
35:38
Rachel: So you gotta be a little careful.
35:42
Rachel: Maybe you'll put yourself in a situation that you don't end up enjoying.
35:45
Rachel: You can remove yourself from that situation, but just be savvy, you know, like, this is a business, right.
35:52
Rachel: I think that's also part of this.
35:54
Rachel: You might be a person, you are running a business.
35:58
Rachel: This is a business interaction.
36:00
Rachel: Usually like you're publishing your books for money, people are buying them.
36:04
Rachel: That's a business.
36:05
Emily: Yeah.
36:05
Rachel: And you can keep a distance between those things.
36:11
Rachel: You know, you can also be super, I mean, I'm super friendly, I love talking to my readers, but I'm not.
36:18
Rachel: I try not to be.
36:19
Rachel: I can't, I can't blanket say I'm not.
36:22
Rachel: I try not to be dumb.
36:23
Rachel: I try not to be like, well, assuming but naive, you know, like, just don't be naive about it.
36:31
Rachel: Know what you're doing.
36:33
Rachel: And there are, I think I have met quite a few readers who I have formed really strong relationships with and who, who have now become my friends.
36:44
Rachel: Right.
36:45
Rachel: Like I would say that this person that I met in a DM is now a friend of mine.
36:50
Rachel: And I truly care about their life the same that they truly care about my life.
36:54
Rachel: Right.
36:54
Rachel: And now it's, it's reciprocal.
36:56
Rachel: And now we're friends.
36:57
Rachel: And if I wasn't open to that at the beginning, I wouldn't have met these like amazing people that I now know and love.
37:05
Rachel: Yeah, but you know, it, we had to build some trust, right?
37:08
Rachel: Like it wasn't just like, oh my God, thanks so much.
37:11
Rachel: Now we're best friends.
37:11
Rachel: Here, here's my phone number.
37:13
Rachel: You know, like, I think just like be considerate and careful and understand what your boundaries are and don't be afraid to put them in place.
37:21
Rachel: And if you get to a place where it's uncomfortable, take a step back, turn it off, come back when you're ready.
37:29
Rachel: There's also authors who hire PAs for this.
37:33
Rachel: You know, like, if you really want to be accessible to your readers, but you yourself don't want to be in your DMs, hire a PA that can manage it and then they can.
37:44
Rachel: They can kind of filter what you need to see what you don't need to see, or be that person who can, like, respond to those readers really quickly, which is usually like, the pressure that I feel like, oh, my God, I gotta get back to them.
37:59
Rachel: But they can handle that.
38:00
Rachel: And then that's not like you.
38:02
Rachel: You have another layer of separation between the possibility of these parasocial relationships developing.
38:11
Emily: Yeah.
38:12
Emily: Anyway.
38:13
Emily: But yeah, it's weird out there, guys.
38:14
Emily: I don't think anyone has the, you know, has it down.
38:18
Emily: Down low because it changes all the time.
38:20
Emily: But yeah, mindset work.
38:24
Rachel: Mindset work.
38:26
Emily: Get to know yourself.
38:27
Emily: Make sure your people pleasing is not getting in your way.
38:30
Rachel: Yeah. Like, I can't imagine what it would be like to be Sarah J. Maas.
38:34
Rachel: I also know she's not very online.
38:37
Rachel: Same with, like, Rebecca Yarros because of these situations.
38:40
Rachel: Then, like, I see an author like Emily Raffle who is probably not the household name that these other two authors are, but is incredibly popular.
38:50
Rachel: Right.
38:50
Rachel: And like, she is very online.
38:53
Rachel: But I can also tell when she talks that she has firm boundaries in place.
38:58
Rachel: Right.
38:58
Rachel: Like, she is putting her voice online.
39:01
Rachel: That doesn't mean that she is accessible to you to talk to.
39:06
Rachel: You know, there's a difference.
39:08
Rachel: There's a large spectrum of this, a large scale of what you may choose to do.
39:13
Rachel: But I can tell when, like, Emily.
39:16
Rachel: Not to say that Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca Yarros are.
39:18
Rachel: Have poor mindset.
39:19
Emily: I don't know.
39:19
Rachel: But what I'm saying is I can tell when Emily Rath speaks that she.
39:23
Rachel: She knows what she cares about.
39:24
Rachel: Right.
39:25
Rachel: Like, she's solid and who she is.
39:26
Rachel: She doesn't need the validation of other people.
39:29
Rachel: Right.
39:29
Rachel: She's not like, here, if she ruffles some feathers because she's talking about how much she hates Donald Trump, great for her.
39:35
Rachel: You know, like, she is not afraid to put her voice out into the Internet.
39:38
Rachel: And like, I really respect that because at the same time, it is very clear in perceiving her.
39:46
Rachel: Right.
39:46
Rachel: Like I. That is me now perceiving her, it's clear to me what her boundaries are.
39:52
Rachel: Like, what's acceptable or not acceptable to engage with her on.
39:56
Rachel: But she will engage.
39:57
Emily: Yeah. You know, you can also be open and honest about your boundaries.
40:01
Emily: I just saw a sub stack by Diana Urban who writes thrillers and whatnot.
40:08
Emily: She was like, why I blocked you, I think is the name of it.
40:13
Emily: And it's an article just outlining, like, all the reasons she might have blocked somebody.
40:19
Emily: And I thought it was really well done because it really touches on, like, you know, some of it's harassment, some of it's.
40:25
Emily: I just don't want to, you know, like, your stuff is triggering to me or, you know, some of it wasn't as.
40:30
Emily: But, like, it.
40:30
Emily: She is a firm boundary.
40:31
Emily: So she's like, I'm gonna block you, and I'm not gonna feel bad about it.
40:34
Emily: If you're worried about why, maybe take a guess, right?
40:36
Emily: She's like, I'm not gonna.
40:37
Emily: I don't owe you an explanation.
40:40
Emily: And I thought that that was, you know, for someone like that, who's definitely not as big as, you know, Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca Yarrison able to step away from the Internet, Right?
40:49
Emily: Some of us have to be on the Internet to sell books.
40:53
Emily: Being able to be like, you know, for my mental health, these are the boundaries that I set.
40:57
Emily: And like, I. I'm gonna explain them here and then, like, take it or leave it.
41:02
Emily: I don't owe you anything else.
41:03
Emily: So I thought that was a. An interesting approach.
41:06
Rachel: So, yeah, yeah, be thoughtful.
41:08
Rachel: This will change.
41:09
Rachel: I'm sure if, like, I blew up tomorrow, I would change.
41:12
Rachel: Right.
41:12
Rachel: You know, I. It's gonna.
41:14
Rachel: It. It's gonna change depending on what phase you are in your journey or how you feel or what's going on in your personal life, or, you know what, Maybe you're on your period and you're like, I can't stand this.
41:24
Rachel: Get out.
41:25
Rachel: Get away from me.
41:25
Rachel: You know, and then maybe you feel better next week.
41:27
Rachel: You know, it's going to change.
41:29
Rachel: That's okay.
41:31
Emily: There's a lot of weird people on the Internet, and it's not going to go away.
41:34
Rachel: So, yeah, that's where the weird people hang out.
41:38
Rachel: Speaking of which, one more story I should see.
41:40
Rachel: I just block out all the negative experiences.
41:42
Rachel: And at the beginning, I was like,
41:44
Emily: you're like, it doesn't bother me.
41:45
Emily: And I'm like, you've definitely texted me a few times about it.
41:48
Rachel: Yeah, no. So the other thing I'll say is this is like, the one.
41:52
Rachel: This.
41:53
Rachel: I don't know that I would classify it as perhaps parasocial.
41:56
Rachel: I would classify it as harassment.
41:58
Rachel: I posted a couple tiktoks that got to the wrong audience.
42:01
Emily: Oh, that's right.
42:03
Rachel: I post.
42:04
Rachel: I don't know why, but suddenly all my TikToks were being viewed by men.
42:09
Rachel: And since I'm marketing my spicy little books, it was perhaps a risque TikTok about my book.
42:18
Rachel: And since suddenly I had hundreds of men sending me dms.
42:24
Rachel: Right.
42:25
Rachel: Or, like.
42:25
Rachel: Or following me or trying to be, like, in my space.
42:28
Emily: Yeah.
42:29
Rachel: And at that point, I was like, I can't do this TikTok anymore.
42:33
Rachel: I don't want this.
42:34
Rachel: I don't want men near me.
42:36
Rachel: Go away.
42:37
Rachel: So we had to, like, reevaluate our TikTok strategy.
42:40
Rachel: But I get my point being that phase for me was like, this is an audience that I don't want.
42:47
Rachel: Right. And I do feel like perhaps one of the reasons why I feel comfortable is that I generally have the audience that I want, you know?
42:57
Rachel: You know what I'm saying?
42:57
Rachel: So, like, if you're getting an audience that you don't want, of course this will end up becoming a little bit more negative.
43:05
Emily: Yeah.
43:06
Rachel: That just reminded me of, like, oh, no, there was that one time where I. I woke up to, like, a thousand new followers that were all men.
43:12
Rachel: And then I was, like, not safe anymore.
43:15
Emily: Not. Let's see.
43:16
Emily: I wanted.
43:17
Rachel: I don't feel safe being here anymore.
43:21
Rachel: So I stopped using that TikTok.
43:23
Rachel: Right.
43:23
Rachel: I made a new one.
43:25
Rachel: Yeah.
43:26
Emily: And then.
43:26
Rachel: And then no more men.
43:29
Rachel: Anyway, that was my response to that.
43:31
Rachel: But, yeah, I think just, like, do what you can to cultivate your audience.
43:36
Rachel: And also, you might find more positivity, perhaps.
43:43
Emily: Yeah. Yeah.
43:44
Rachel: Anyway.
43:45
Emily: All right, well, that's.
43:46
Rachel: Anything else that.
43:47
Rachel: We covered it.
43:48
Rachel: I think we got it.
43:50
Rachel: Like, we got.
43:51
Emily: Thanks for really, our parasocial relationships.
43:54
Emily: We love you, literally.
43:56
Emily: Even though we don't know your names.
43:59
Emily: We know some of your names.
44:01
Rachel: Do you know what, though?
44:01
Rachel: Do you know that's actually reminding me.
44:03
Rachel: Do you know how often we're like, don't come into our inbox.
44:09
Rachel: Don't talk to us about this.
44:10
Rachel: Like, this is what we're trying to avoid is, like, we love you so much.
44:15
Rachel: Thank you so much for listening to our podcast.
44:17
Rachel: Also, I don't.
44:18
Rachel: I usually am not interested in your opinion.
44:21
Emily: We have a lovely virtual assistant who's like, you don't need to see these emails.
44:27
Emily: It's great.
44:28
Rachel: But that's because we get really weird shit in our inbox.
44:30
Rachel: Right.
44:31
Rachel: Like, if you're a nice person coming into our To.
44:33
Rachel: Into our emails to tell us something nice, wonderful.
44:37
Rachel: But if you're a weirdo, I'm not gonna reply to you.
44:41
Emily: Yeah.
44:42
Rachel: And I tell you, look, you guys don't understand sometimes.
44:46
Emily: And I have to talk her down.
44:47
Emily: Let's be real.
44:48
Rachel: There are times where I have.
44:50
Rachel: Yeah. Because you know what?
44:50
Rachel: I get to a point where I'm like, this is my fucking business.
44:53
Rachel: I can say whatever I want.
44:54
Rachel: Who?
44:54
Rachel: Wow.
44:55
Rachel: Why do I have to be professional?
44:56
Rachel: You're not being professional.
44:59
Emily: And then Emily's like, hey, it's also my business, though.
45:02
Rachel: I know, I know.
45:03
Rachel: And then you're like, maybe we shouldn't.
45:05
Rachel: And I'm like, you're right, we probably shouldn't.
45:08
Rachel: But anyway, like, that's a boundary we have that we often express on the podcast is if.
45:14
Rachel: If you just want to argue with us.
45:16
Rachel: Unwelcome. Right.
45:17
Rachel: So don't do it.
45:18
Rachel: But if you, like, want to meaningfully engage with us in a respectful way instead of calling us.
45:24
Rachel: Do you know how often we get an email that's, like, referencing that we're girls.
45:29
Emily: Hey, girls.
45:30
Rachel: Hey, girls.
45:31
Rachel: And. And, like, belittling us for being women and, like, oh, our knowledge must be lesser because we're girls.
45:38
Rachel: Anyway, I'm gonna stop.
45:42
Rachel: Love you guys.
45:42
Emily: Thanks so much for our podcast.
45:45
Rachel: Thank you so much for being our online friends.
45:49
Emily: You're great.
45:50
Emily: And if you want to build a successful, fulfilling, and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
45:59
Rachel: Don't email us back.
46:01
Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
46:06
Rachel: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
46:11
Emily: Link in the show notes.
46:12
Emily: We'll see you there.
46:13
Emily: We love you.
46:17
Emily: Bye.