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Transcript

Possessed · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Why We Do What We Do. I am
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: your possessed host, Abraham.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: And I'm your possessive host, Shane.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, no. We are a psychology podcast. We talk about
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: the things that humans and non-human animals do. I'll probably
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: have that be the end of my possessed voice for this. So,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: sorry if that was surprising and grating on your ears.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: So scary.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I know. But either way, thank you for joining us.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Welcome to our podcast. Did I say we talk about
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: things that humans and non-human animals do because we're a
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: psychology podcast? Yes.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: That's really important for this episode, actually.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It turns out. Well, and worth stating maybe
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: even multiple times because in the month of October, we
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: take on these spooky topics that are sometimes harder to
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: tie back to psychology and human behavior. Not impossible. Yeah.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: but maybe slightly more challenging to make that connection and
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: make it feel cohesive. And maybe even sometimes we don't
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: try that hard and we just kind of let it
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: ride as a weird thing that we talked about. But
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: we're tying this one more closely together in the psychology realm.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Yes, and so today, because we have not announced it
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: officially yet, we are talking about possessions in terms of
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: spiritual and demonic possessions and what that means.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: But we are going to take, I think, a more.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: Stripped-down approach to this topic because, as I was kind
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: of looking into it, we had kind of already done
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: an episode on exorcisms and what that looked like. I
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: figured that maybe a fun way to go about this
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: would be to kind of expose the way that we
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: think about topics in general from the basic assumptions of science.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: So that's the way that we're going to go with
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: this one.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: If you are joining us for the first time, then welcome.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: I hope that you enjoy what you hear in this discussion.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: And if you are a returning listener, then welcome back.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you for seeking us out once again. And either way,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: if you'd like to support us, you can join us
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: on Patreon, leave us a rating and a review, like, subscribe,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: tell a friend. I'll talk more about those things at
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: the end of this discussion. And although that almost sounded
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: like an ad for us, it was not. We'll save
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: those for later. Nope.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Also, if you happen to catch this the day that
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: we publish it, then you probably already know, but I'm
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: going to wish it to you anyway. The actual holiday
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: on this October 28th is Champagne Day. So happy Champagne Day.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Happy Champagne Day.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: It's also International Animation Day, which I love.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. It is Lung Health Day. So do that.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: And three days before Halloween, it is National Chocolate Day.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Mmm, perfect. Love some nice dark chocolate. Yes. It is
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Plush Animal Lovers Day.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: It certainly is.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: And lovers of the animals are plush.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Exactly. So I love that.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: It is Separation of Church and State Day. Big fan
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: of that.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Yay. Applause all around. Yep. It is Statue of Liberty
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Dedication Day. That's fun. Yeah.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: It's also Wild Foods Day.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: It is ACE Week, A-C-E.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is. It is also American Massage Therapy Week.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Big fans of that.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: We did an episode, more or less, on that, not
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: the week itself, but the topic of massage slash therapy,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: massage space therapy.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we did.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: It is Brain Tumor Awareness Week. Go get that checked.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, which also may be related to today's episode. It
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: is Disarmament Week.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, also applause for that. Yay. Yes. And to accomplish disarmament,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: you might need a bit of magic. So it is
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: International Magic Week.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: It's also Pro Bono Week. I'm a fan of donating
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: services where you can. So if you can, when you can, volunteer, donate,
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: donate your time where you can.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: It's good stuff.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Indeed. Well, that's what we have to say about those holidays,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: but that's maybe not why you're here. Unclear. I don't
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: know what drew you here. Maybe it was the holidays.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Seems unlikely since that was not part of the episode
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: title or billboard, but you're here and you heard that part.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Let's get into the topic du jour. Is there anything
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: that I'm missing or you'd like to add before we transition?
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: No, I think we're ready to go.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to do this episode a little bit
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: differently than maybe some of our other episodes have been done.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: And although I think there's a pretty varied range of
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: experiences and the delivery of those types of episodes, this
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: one we're going to try and explain possessions as a
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: phenomenon and then dissect it, break it apart. We want
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: to start this with a simple idea, which is, assumptions
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: and the assumptions that I think we have going into this,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: the assumptions that science makes to be a field of
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: or an approach to understanding the world. I actually love
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: doing this. I like it. This I can only think
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: of one article that's actually ever done this. But I
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: think a lot of times when we talk about things,
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: we start from a place of assumptions without explicitly stating
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: what those are. And sometimes just understanding the assumptions that
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: we make going into a conversation is fundamentally important to
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: then how that conversation plays out. And sometimes I think
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: were we to have disagreements and debates, we might not
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: have those disagreements and debates if we started by understanding
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: what our assumptions were to begin with.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: So as we kind of go forward, I looked at
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: this episode as I was kind of writing it as
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: like a naked cake scenario.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Situation, right?
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: Like you see exactly what's in there. You see the ingredients.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: It's not overly decorated. It's not, we're not gilding the
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: lily or anything like that. So, you know, when we
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: talk about this, what we are saying here is that
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: science relies on basic assumptions to help us create a
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: framework for which a phenomenon can be studied and possessions
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: in terms of spiritual and demonic possessions is a phenomenon
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: that I'm not going to say is worth studying, but
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: from a basic assumption standpoint, We want to try to
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: understand how it fits into a science framework, if it
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: even fits into a science framework.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of the way that we're going to
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: approach it.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: So simply put, these assumptions allow us to rule out
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: some nonsense and really kind of look at a phenomenon
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: and go, does this fit into the world as we
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: understand it through these basic assumptions?
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: So we are going to start this discussion with a
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: simple premise. We will likely end with the same thing. Possessions, right? Uh-huh.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: if they are a scientific phenomenon, that should allow us
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: to explore the basic assumptions within science and verify the
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: feasibility of this thing. And so that's, I think, the
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: way that we want to approach this is just that, like,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: let's look at this through a natural science lens.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: So, in today's final episode our halloween episode for why
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: we do what we do and the why we do
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: we do timeline we are going to explore the interesting
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: and very explainable world of possessions.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Nice yeah okay let's do this uh let's begin with
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: describing the phenomenon at hand possessions at least in the
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: way i feel like i said that possessions possessions Possessions,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: at least in the way that we're referring to them today,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: is the spiritual or supernatural experiences in which a person
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: is taken over or controlled by some type of other entity.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: So that's like the sort of starting definition, if you will.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Even in that sentence, there's a ton of assumptions that
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: we're making for any of those words to possibly make
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: any sense to us. That's sort of the definition. Yes.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: So we are going to unpack specifically the term supernatural
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: shows up and I go, we're going to talk about
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: that later.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Okay. Super important.
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: So now by definition, possession is, and this is the
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: standard definition for possession. Possession is defined as, quote, the act, fact,
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: or condition of having, holding, or controlling something. This generally
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: refers to things like property, territory, emotional states, like self-possession,
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: possessing a state of calm or anything like that, and
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: or a ball or a puck, like in sporting events.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: When somebody has the ball, it is in their possession.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: Fair point. Yeah. I started saying, like the very first
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: part I said was like, When a person is controlled
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: by something, but just very broadly, the term possession is
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: like stuff that you own. Yeah, stuff that.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: You own, stuff that you control, things that you have
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: in your control or in your kind of like range
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: of things that you control.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, which could even include other living things such as,
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: for example, pets. People might think of them as possessions.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Not that we're weighing in on that in one way
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: or another, but just thinking about what that means from
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: different perspectives. But of course, we're not really here to
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: debate the part of the law that has to do
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: with private property. We're going to focus on spiritual possession,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: which is more in line with that original definition of
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: being controlled by an entity. Yes. More specifically... demonic possession
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: for this discussion. Now, why are we going to do this? Well,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: these aren't generally separated out given the intrusive nature of possessions.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so basically what we mean is that demonic and
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: spiritual possessions are often kind of used synonymously because it
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: is some entity controlling the person. But there are some
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: examples of beneficent or beneficent, however you want to say that,
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: possessions in shamanic, animist, or African diasporic traditions, such as
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: sacred practices related to spirit animal possession and whatnot. And
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: we're going to share some of those characteristics in some ways.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: We're going to kind of talk about that and how
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: that's important for cultivating practices. But what we are really
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: going to focus on is just understanding what it means
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: for an entity to possess somebody and how we explain
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: that through a scientific lens.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: I know this is not at all the intention or
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: direction that we're even going with this conversation, but thinking
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: of like what would be a beneficial possession by an
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: animal spirit, I'm thinking of like Spider-Man. Maybe Kraven the Hunter. Yeah.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: Black Panther. I could see that being in that space.
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: But I think also, too, thinking about when you talk
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: about guidance or when you talk about the ability to
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: impart wisdom on somebody through that possession and what that
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: looks like or some type of enlightenment, that's usually kind
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: of what shows up in those spaces.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: Rather than it being like this animal spirit is controlling
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: your body and making you do some wacky.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Things, right?
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: So, like, I think that's probably the benefit is, like,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: almost like a wisdom piece rather than it being, you know, like,
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: you know, malfeasant type of process.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: I could see it. I'm trying to think if there
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: are like pop culture stories of this, but like where
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: the like the animal shows up and leads you to
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: a place you need to be. And it's kind of
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: like a spirit animal. It's not maybe really there, but
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: like that's sort of the idea is that like summoning
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: the that sort of thing. That makes sense.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: There's some overlap with, like, spirit quests or, like, vision
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: quests and stuff like that. You'll see some of those
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: things inside of that. Or, like, you know, like, hunting traditions.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: You'll see that where, like, somebody is said to be,
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: you know, imbued with the spirit of a predator. Like,
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: you know, a powerful predator that is going to be
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: successful in the hunt and whatnot. Like, you'll see some
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: of those things show up. But, like, to your point, like,
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: I don't think that we see a lot of this
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: in pop culture because I think... A lot of our
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: pop culture is kind of like white sanitized or whitewashed.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: So like we kind of miss a lot of those
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: opportunities to see that.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: All right. So getting into demonic possessions, ads or demonic
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: possession of a podcast. Yes. Okay, we're back. We've been
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: just getting into sort of what possessions are. And what
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: we started segwaying into was the fact that the idea
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: of possessions and how these show up have existed in
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: different ways across different cultures throughout human history.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: So, tales of spiritual possessions, good, bad, or otherwise, can
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: be found across cultures. And there's lots of examples in Buddhism, Christianity, voodoo, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Wicca,
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: as well as indigenous cultures around the world. So you
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: kind of see this show up a lot. And I
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: think that given the complex nature of spirituality and creation stories,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: or like, I learned this term cosmogonic, cosmogonic myths.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: It looks like cosmogonic to me, but I'm not sure.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: I think it's cosmogonic. Yeah, yeah.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Are you sure it's maybe not cosmogenic?
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know. The word I saw was cosmogonic. It
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: could be cosmogenic either way.
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: It stands to reason that humans would arrive at belief
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: systems that involve connections with higher powers, spirits of the earth,
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: different things like that. You know, polytheistic practices. Like, it
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: makes sense that you're going to find that the kind of, like,
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: reach to spirituality would include possession by those different entities.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: It's sort of like, I think about the fact that
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: because language is this very malleable tool... it is capable
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: of impressive things like coordinating cooperation, the development of science,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: like all of these. But at the same time, because
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: it's just a tool, it can kind of also be anything.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: And from that, we also get like, if language enables
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: us to imagine things that are not, while that's extremely
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: helpful for things like creativity and developing experiments to test hypotheses, Right. Right. Right. Right.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: angels and demons and monsters and gods and whatnot. So anyway,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: language does that. And the reason that I think these
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: things show up in a somewhat ubiquitous way across different
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: cultures is not because there is a likelihood that there's
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: any reality to these ideas, but instead because language is
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: the tool by which we come to those things. And
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: human culture tends to not stray super far from our
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: technologies and body shapes. Right. In our quote unquote creative endeavors.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: And so things end up looking somewhat similar across cultures,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: even though they might have originated from very different geographical
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: places and very different cultures, they'll end up having some
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: amount of overlap anyway. Right. Let's get into this. Our
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: first barrier in studying possessions is in its description and features,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: which probably should come as a shock to no one.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: They're not necessarily agreed upon characteristics of a possession, but
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: there are some things to look out for in, if
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: you're interested in studying this in your studies, in our discussion,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: at least here's the things to look out for.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: The first one is preternatural or supernatural abilities. And this
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: could refer to superhuman strength, the ability to speak in
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: languages unknown to the person, or quote-unquote hidden knowledge, somebody
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: having some level of clairvoyance, supposedly, about something they shouldn't
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: really have information on. So if you start to observe
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: this in somebody, this is often cited as one of
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: the first indicators that possession has happened.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so possessions could include, but are not limited to, Yes.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: The supernatural abilities, also behavioral and psychological shifts, which is
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: like loss of self-control, changes in vocal patterns, which I
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: was doing at the beginning of this, extreme emotional volatility,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you also see spiritual or
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: sacred aversions.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: So the possessed person may find a direct aversion to
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: holy objects, relics, or rites. or further display aggressive behavior
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: towards said relics or people that represent or have those
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: relics in their own possession.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: So you'll see that kind of show up too.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Super common in the exorcist movies and exorcism scenes. There's
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: also somatic or sensory symptoms. This includes unexplained illnesses, increased
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: sensitivity to stimuli and smells and that sort of thing.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: They've definitely played with this in some of the storytelling
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I've seen around possessions as well.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, most definitely.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: So now this leads us to want to describe the
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: casual elements of a possession. So according to most accounts
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: that are often anecdotal, the initial cause of a possession
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: is some type of supernatural. Again, you're going to see
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: that word supernatural. That's going to be really important when
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: we get into this later. supernatural entity or spirit. This
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: can include any number of entities spanning a variety of
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: cultural views. So for example, the Loa or the Eva
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: in Haitian voodoo is a possessing spirit, where in Catholicism,
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: it's usually some demon. So you'll see different kinds of
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: variations of this. I've seen angels, demons, spirit animals, like
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: lots of different descriptions of different types of entities that
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: might show up and possess the person.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: All right, perfect. So we've set the stage. With this information,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: we now have a cause, which is to say an entity,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: and some characteristics of the possession, those that we just list.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: There's the spiritual sacred aversions, behavioral and psychological shifts, supernatural abilities,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: somatic sensory symptoms, et cetera. So with this understanding, we
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: can go ahead and unpack what this means through our
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: basic assumptions of science and how we would start to
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: bring this under that natural science lens. Because obviously it's
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: a people, it's a thing that people report on observing
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: and experiencing and having it happen. So that means that
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: like with science, an element of this existing in observable reality,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: we can take a level of scientific scrutiny to that event. Yeah.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: And I want to be clear about this too, because
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: I don't want this to sound as if we are
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: trying to disrespect belief systems that people have. I think
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: what we're trying to do is just understand it the
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: way that we see the world and kind of understand
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: it through these observable phenomenon in this framework. So I
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: want to be clear about that. The goal of this
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: is not to be disrespectful or to be cynical about this.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: This is where we kind of enter that skepticism place, right?
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: So as we move forward and we kind of move
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: through these basic assumptions, these basic scientific assumptions, which we're
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: going to describe briefly as we go, we're going to
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: be as objective as possible. We really want to look
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: at this through a science lens because I think it
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: is worth accounting for these features and the flaws of
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: any phenomenon, no matter what that phenomenon is. It's worth
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: doing that With some level of scrutiny. So I think
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: the first one that we have to start with is
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: because we are talking about this term supernatural and we're
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: talking about kind of like patterns and stuff like that.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I think that we start with determinism.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Perfect. So getting into this, we're starting with the fact
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: that like there are certain assumptions that we have to
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: make to engage with the world through a scientific process.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Because without these assumptions, a scientific approach would be incoherent. Honestly,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: without these assumptions, any approach in my mind feels incoherent.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: But again, that's why it's an assumption. Because without it,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: we simply can't proceed. And so the first one is determinism.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people hear determinism and
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: confuse this for like fatalism.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Everything is predetermined, prescripted fate, which is not what it means.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: In a deterministic lens, all phenomenon that exist in the
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: universe follow natural observable patterns. And again, we'd like to
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: emphasize the word natural here. Natural.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Oftentimes, spiritual positions use the term spiritual. meaning elevating it
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: beyond natural phenomenon. The basic assumption that possessions occur as
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: a result of beyond natural circumstances would specifically put it
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: outside of our ability to evaluate it through a natural lens. However,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: if we're to hypothesize that the spirit or entity possessing
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: the person were a natural phenomenon, it would require evidence
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: of an additional type of life form, if you will,
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: because again, we're talking about some thing, some entity that
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: does not adhere to any of the understandings or laws
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: that we have of biology, physics, chemistry, It simply does not.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: So coming out through the assumption of determinism, that all
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: things exist in a deterministic universe... We therefore can accept
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: only the parts of this that exist along the natural
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: framework because if you start trying to put any of
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: these things outside of that, they become incoherent. They do
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: not work. Right. There is no example at all ever
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: of things existing outside of the natural world. They just
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: don't happen. Right. Here's the other problem with this. If
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: they did happen outside of natural phenomenon, the fact that
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: they exist at all would automatically make them natural phenomenon.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: And so as soon as it exists in the natural
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: world at all, then it becomes natural phenomenon. So if
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: we try and put it and say that it exists
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: outside of the natural world, then you're saying it doesn't
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: exist at which is why it has to exist through
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: a deterministic lens because that is the only way that
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: it exists at all. Yeah.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think you absolutely nailed it there. I mean,
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: when you brought up ghosts the other day as part
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: of why it doesn't make sense for them to exist,
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: because they would have to have mass for them to
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: be able to reflect light. And if they don't have mass, then.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: You can't see them. Or interact with matter.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: That we as scientists have observed or can explain everything
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: through a naturalistic lens. And yes, we can if we're
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: able to identify those patterns. So it is very possible,
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: and I think this is where the skepticism piece comes in,
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: it is possible that at some point in time, one
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: of these phenomenon that is unexplained can could eventually be
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: explained through pattern recognition that occurs inside of this deterministic space,
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: but we may not know what the pattern is yet.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: So an example that I might use here is the
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: quantum physics and physics in general involved with light-speed travel.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: We can explain that to some degree, but we have
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: not observed this thing happening yet from a machine that
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: we have made to create light-speed travel. What I'm saying
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: is the theory is there, some descriptions are there, but
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: we have not observed this thing. We haven't observed the
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: patterns that make this thing happen or reasonable to occur
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: in our observable world right now. The point is that everything,
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: everything underneath a deterministic view has a pattern. Scientists, as
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: part of their observation and discovery of the world, are
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: trying to identify what those patterns might be in the
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: event that we have not identified them yet.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's what are all of the variables in play
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: that allow this thing to happen the way that it does?
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: And just as you said, and that's very, very important,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: sometimes we know what those are, but a lot of
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: times we don't yet know. know what they are. It
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean we never will. And I think before we
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: had any idea of what caused disease, there were a
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: lot of very silly ideas about why people got sick.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: And there was no way of understanding things like bacteria
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: and viruses when you couldn't even conceive of that being
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: a thing that exists in reality. But that doesn't mean
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: that the actual explanation was demonic possession or bad air
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: or the arrangement of the stars in the sky. It
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: just meant that we didn't understand it yet. And we're
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: just still in the place where there are things that
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: happen that we currently don't understand why they happen. Why
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: do we keep having ads? All right, we're back. I
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: think we've done a great job with determinism. I'm ready
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: to move on to our next major important assumption here,
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: which is empiricism.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about empiricism.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: So, for possession to meet the requirement of empiricism, there
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: would need to be verifiable and replicable demonstrations of the phenomenon.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: There needs to be evidence.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: So, empiricism is the idea of evidence. But when we
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: talk about evidence, we are not talking about a singular
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: observable event. We are talking about multiple instances where we
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: have consistent evidence to demonstrate a phenomenon exists. So, we
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: talked about this with the cryptids episode, where, like, one
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: person will see some creature that is, like, Kind of strange,
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: kind of odd, but it might be the result of
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: a mutation.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: It might be the result of a deformity.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: It might be the result of whatever thing is going on.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: And it might have been the only member of the
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: species that has this particular type of characteristic. So that
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: does not mean, like when you see something like a
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: swamp ape or something like that, that that is evidence, right?
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: That just means that we have some level of inquiry
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: that we need to engage in. Now, as we write this,
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: there are a lot of reports, right?
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: Of possessions.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: And I want to be really clear, these are anecdotal
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: reports of possessions, right? Where some famous possessions include Annalise Mickle,
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: which we did talk about in our exorcism episode, who
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: underwent 67 separate exorcisms, Roland Doe, who's the basis of
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: the novel and movie The Exorcism, and Arne Cheyenne Johnson,
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: who's the basis of The Devil Made Me Do It
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: and The Conjuring 2, which we referenced in the last episode.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect. So I will add a little bit that, like,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: there are things that only happen once that are very
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: clearly observable phenomenon.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: And you take, like, for example, like, we're pretty confident
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: that the moon that orbits the Earth... came from a
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: large impact where the Earth was struck by a very
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: large thing and a chunk of it broke off and
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: essentially formed into the moon. And as far as we know,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: that has only ever happened once, very early in the
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Earth's history. But we have a lot of evidence that
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: we can collect that supports that as a theory, understanding
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: all of the evidence that we've gathered. Yeah.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: So.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: But just, yeah, so it was like the repeated thing
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: is definitely important when it comes to most natural phenomenon
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: that we're looking at. But like also if there is
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: like something that happened only a single time, if there's
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: evidence for it, then again, it exists in an empirical way.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: It can be validated through observation. Right. And it can
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: be validated by an observation from anybody at any point
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: who's able to have potentially observed that thing. And therein
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: lies the lacking that comes from some of these possession stories.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: And also, I want to be mindful of the fact
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: that while anecdotal reports and data can be useful, I
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: think especially in qualitative studies, I actually find qualitative data
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: to be extraordinarily useful and maybe even something That would
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: be worth doing a little bit of a mini-on or
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: something because I think it is an underappreciated approach to
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: thinking about behavioral phenomenon and science more broadly. Right. There
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: is just simply insufficient evidence to demonstrate that any element
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: of a possession is replicable and verifiable.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, at least from the ghost standpoint.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah. From the premise that there's an entity responsible
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: for the characteristics of things. Because what we can observe
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: is unique situations with people doing strange things. But the
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: evidence that there is anything outside of the natural world
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: that's involved in these virtually does not exist. Right.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: Which I think brings us to the third assumption of science,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: which is parsimony. So when we talk about parsimony, we
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: are talking about Occam's razor, the simplest explanation. And to date,
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: we actually have verifiable or observable phenomenon that are simpler
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: and more likely to be verified causes for how key
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: characteristics of possessions could occur. So we could argue that
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: there is an unknown demonic entity controlling someone's behavior or
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: that It could be any number of biological, neurological, or
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: medical factors. Brain tumors, neurodegenerative disorders like dementia, Alzheimer's, you
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: have schizophrenia, severe mania, Tourette's syndrome. These are all more
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: viable explanations for why we might see sudden behavior changes. Now,
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: With that being said, you might hear that and go, well,
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: why we do what we do? What about those religious
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: aversion pieces that you talked about earlier? People who all
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: of a sudden start hating crosses and they start not
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: liking holy water. Language is powerful, first and foremost. And
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: we do have studies on the experience of traumatic religious
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: events and how those have shaped some of our behavior
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: in lots of different ways.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: They shaped our expectations, thoughts, We've.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: Been conditioned to respond under certain circumstances. When we see
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: things like priests or crosses, or somebody tells us that
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: something is holy water or something like that, we might
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: have those experiences and religious expectations, language around possession and
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: internal damnation, social pressures from congregations. All of these things
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: are all factors that are observable within the natural world
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: that we could consider as part of the specific experience
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: of somebody having a said possession.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: It all comes down to like, Have we ruled out
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: the most likely explanation first? Right. So like, for example,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: we have a bunch of Halloween decorations. One of them
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: is mounted on the wall using this sort of thick
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: jelly-like adhesive kind of tape. if you will, and it
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: keeps falling down. And this is the second year we've
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: tried to use this. So I think the adhesiveness is
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: wearing off. But again, like you could see this thing
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: fall down and start looking for a wizard or or
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: a Cthulhu who is responsible for knocking that down. But like,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: shouldn't you first rule out that the tape is just
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: not that sticky anymore? Like, that is the better explanation.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: That's what parsimony is about. It's like, let's make sure
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: we've accounted for the things that are the most likely
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: to be responsible for this first. What are the most
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: likely variables? And people do like to say simpler. And
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: then I think that they get caught up in what
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: that means to them, like what means simple. And I
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: think the better way to maybe phrase it is like,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: How far away from reasonable, rational explanations and assumptions do
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: you have to get to make your idea make sense? Right.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: So again, if like the thing is falling down and
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: I'm like, probably it's aliens. I'm like, well, we have
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: to go, we have to move really far away from
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: things we are very certain about to get to the
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: point at which aliens is a reasonable thing to have
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: jumped to as the next reasonable explanation for this. Now,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: and there are things where I think they appear so
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: strange to us that we want to make that leap
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: right away because it's like this doesn't seem obvious that
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: there is a simpler explanation for this. But I guarantee
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: you there is.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: I guarantee it that there is. So anyway, this all
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: comes down to like, I think if, let's look, for example,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: in that religious aversion piece, like imagine you're in this
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: exorcist scenario, someone who is probably from some religious affiliation
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: shows up with a lot of religious language and symbolism
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: on their body. They're holding a cross, they're wearing a cross,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: they're using religious words and And the person who they're confronting,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: like that person is now just imbued with these symbols.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: So their rejection of those symbols come with the fact
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: that they're being confronted by a person who's wearing those symbols.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: So their reaction to something like a cross might just
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: be because it's the person who's there with that symbol.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Had they shown up with a Star of David? Had
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: they shown up with a... any other religious symbolism that
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: you might think of, that might've been the thing that
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: they reacted to instead. But when we talk about these
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: religious exorcisms, particularly because exorcisms are almost exclusively performed by
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Christian clergy when they're calling them exorcisms. Yeah.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: It's part of the Catholic church for sure.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. Then like, that's the kind of symbolism that
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: they bring to them. But like, it would be, I
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: think the simplest explanation of these moments is like, yeah,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: that's what they showed up with. Like, that's the symbol
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: that they use. Like, Sure. Had they shown up with
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: anything else, that could have been the symbol that then
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: was rebelled against, if you will. But anyway, that's the
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: parsimony piece, I think. Yeah, yeah.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: I think you nailed it there.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: So then going on to the fourth basic assumption, we
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: have pragmatism, right? The idea that science is going to–
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: like whatever phenomenon it is, however we're studying it, it's
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: going to have some ultimate benefit.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: To humanity, to the world at large, to natural science, right?
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: So like, so the question that kind of comes up
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: here is like, what is it worth to humanity to
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: study this and spend time like intervening on this? Well,
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: if we consider advancements in medicine, psychological and behavioral practices,
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: and all of those things that go along with kind
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: of modern medicine, just in general, then treating possessions as
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: a spiritual phenomenon doesn't really have as much utility or
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: any sort of success rate.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: So, like, that's the other side.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: Of this is, like, even if this were demonic possession
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: and we were treating it through those more traditional means
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: of exorcisms, we find that that's not really the solution,
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: especially when there's a more medical reason going on, like
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: a brain tumor or a psychotic break. So when these
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: types of conditions emerge, we find greater benefits from a
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: medical or behavioral or social model. And I think I
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: want to be clear about that, too, because it might
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: not necessarily be something medical. It could be some social
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: engagement where the person is not connected with their community.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: They're having distress related to distances from their community, which
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: we've seen a lot in the indigenous populations where the
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: further away somebody gets from their identity, the more likely
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: they're going to have some unique distressors around that. So
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: the social models of support too are really important and
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: accurate medical treatment, social support, and all those things. tend
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: to have more of an impact on improving symptoms of
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: possessions than involvement from the church. Unless the church is
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: that support model, and it's more about providing community than
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: it is about doing exorcisms.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Which again, then that becomes what you do instead.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Like, why do the thing that doesn't work when we
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: can do the thing that does? If there's a piece
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: of this that does work, albeit inefficiently and through this
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: very weird elaborate ritual, instead let's take the part of
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: that that actually matters and make that the main ingredient
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: of how we're going to approach this. Right. I kind
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: of love this whole point anyway of just sort of
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: like what is this– what utility does this have for
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: us as a species? None. Right. None utility. None.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: To approach it from that lens of the like the
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: supernatural lens, if you will.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: I think what we're saying is like in those situations
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: or circumstances when somebody is having some concerning presenting problem, right?
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: This is not like in those, like more, those nicer,
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: you know, beneficial types of possessions that people talk about,
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: like that are part of the spirit guides and those
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: journeys and all that. That's a different context, right? We're
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: talking about like the people who are possessed and are
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: having possessed by demons who are engaging in a barren
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: or problem or concerning behavior, like self injurious behavior and whatnot,
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: like an exorcism isn't going to work, right? It just
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: doesn't benefit that person, right? It doesn't benefit the people.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: It doesn't benefit anybody in that situation.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I think you actually get to what I
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: said was it has none benefit. Which I obviously say
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: that grammatically and correctly for the humor of the way
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: that it lands. But I would actually– I think you
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: actually point out that it goes beyond not having benefits
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: to the fact that it's actually counterproductive.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: It's harmful. Like, yeah.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: It's not just that it doesn't work. It's that it
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: actually puts us in the wrong direction and makes things worse,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: like putting ads in a podcast. Right. Okay, we're back.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: We are unpacking these various assumptions of science. Now, one
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: that we hadn't originally discussed, including in this episode, I'm
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: going to bring up really quickly before we move on
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: to sort of our last one, is there is, I think,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: an assumption that it's a little bit ties a lot
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: of these together. And it's assumption of something called monism.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: And that is the assumption that we only live in
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: this one plane of reality. And that, again, is a
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: scientific assumption that we depend on that like there are
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: not different versions of reality that could spontaneously exist at
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: different points. There is one universe that we live in.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: And a lot of people like to think about this
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: idea that there's this multiverse of things. And I honestly,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to feel about there being the
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: idea of multiple dimensions. Certainly a lot of very smart
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: people seem to think that that could be a thing
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: that exists. I am very skeptical of the arguments that
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: they have made, but I'm perfectly willing to accept that
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: they maybe have put thought into this in a way
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: that I haven't. But the idea is that we don't
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: get to have both a universe where something like gods
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: exist and a universe that we live in that we
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: have all these observable phenomenon and have those two coexist simultaneously,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense. Again, it just comes back
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: to this incoherent piece. And related to that, that's where
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: we get things like empiricism. That's like where, like determinism
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: and parsimony, because all of that is sort of exists
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: in the sort of monistic framework of there being just
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: the one sort of world that Moan coming from like
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: mono or singular, just one. Anyway, I just wanted to
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: throw that one in there as we're sort of getting
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: to the end here of our assumptions. Yeah.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: No, I think it's beautiful. I think it's so perfect.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: So, I think another one that kind of ties everything together,
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: and this is, I think, one of the most important
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: parts of the scientific practice is this idea of philosophic doubt.
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: And I think this is the thing. I mean, you've
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: said it more than once on the show where science
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: is self-correcting. And with new information comes new ways to
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: study things. And so, I think this is so important
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: for kind of like the theme and the practice and
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: the understanding of what we're talking about in this episode
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: is we land on this idea of philosophic doubt because
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: information shows up. So, what happens when we're presented with
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: new evidence? Well, up until this point, there is really
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: no evidence of spiritual possession being a thing. It's important
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: to know that. And I think one of the things
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: that we talk about on the show is that we
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: have a value of.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Skepticism over cynicism.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: The idea is that when we approach these topics, we're
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: not approaching them being like, oh, this isn't true. We
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: approach these topics of going, I want to understand this
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: better because I'm skeptical that this is a phenomenon that exists.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: Of course, if there's ever a circumstance where new evidence
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: is presented, we may consider other options. However, at this
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: point in time, on this topic, with the available information
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: that we have and the way that we study the
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: world and our understanding of natural sciences, the evidence that
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: would need to happen for us to believe or to
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: understand or to accept that demonic or spiritual possession is
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: a natural phenomenon that actually exists is It would require
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: so much evidence that it would have to be substantial, replicable, verifiable.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: It would require that there is enough evidence to move
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: the phenomenon out of the quote-unquote supernatural territory or category
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: that's often described in into a natural science to allow
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: us and basically to adhere to those basic assumptions that
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: we just talked about. So far at this point in time,
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: we are very, very, very, very long way from that happening.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: Based on current available information, like we simply do not
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: have information on varying planes of existence, on corporeal entities,
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: sentient corporeal entities or demons or angels or ghosts or
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: any of those things that are often the primary kind
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: of information. of entity, the causal factor of these types
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: of possessions that we're talking about. Now, we have studies
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: on how hallucinogens work and how things like that and
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: how people have those experiences, those lived experiences underneath those
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: varying states of different types of like psychogenic drugs.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that that's the case for everybody.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: I want to be clear.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying like, well, you were possessed because you
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: took some really great mushrooms.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: That's not what I'm saying.
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: But I think it's important to note that is also
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: more likely to be the parsimonious explanation for somebody having
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: experienced possession than a ghost. And that's kind of where
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: we're at here. And in the event that more evidence
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: comes up that ghosts exist, we may have a different conversation.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: But right now, as it currently stands, we simply do
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: not have enough.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Just as you said, the evidence would have to be incontrovertible.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: There is no way to doubt any aspect of the
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: thing that you've seen. And I think another thing is
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: that people have done... a very incomplete job of actually
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: trying to work out the implications for if something like
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: this were to exist. Like if we were to actually
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: grant that something like a demon possession could exist, the
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: implications for that are so far reaching and would be
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: so pervasive and so embedded in so many other aspects
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: of reality that like, I think that once you start
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: working out, like, let's start from the assumption that something
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: like that could exist and What would that mean for
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: the rest of how we understand the world? You eventually
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: get to a point where the answer is it can't
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: exist again, because like if something were this within controvertible evidence,
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: we'd have to completely rethink and reshape everything that we
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: understand about all of reality from top to bottom. And again,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: like the amount that it would have to have altered
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: everything that currently is would be so vast and it'd
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: be like none of our other experiences we've ever had
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: were even real. Like that's how substantial of a shift
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: like the implication of that would be. But I would
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: love it if someone wanted to take on thinking through
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: every facet of like, if this were real, what implications
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: would that have for the world? Because again, you're going
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: to run to the point where like this implication has
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: never been. And therefore, this thing cannot have ever been,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: even though we already knew that. Right. And I will
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: say like philosophic doubt is not necessarily an assumption of
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: science as much as it is like an attitude that
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: scientists take. But I think, you know, that's kind of
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: splitting hairs. But just when we're thinking about like the
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: various approaches and things that we either take for granted,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: I think that we take, for example, empiricism for granted,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: determinism for granted. That one, like we can't prove that
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: it's right. But it is like an assumption versus like
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: a philosophic doubt of pragmatism or more like sort of
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: attitudes that we bring to these investigative things that we're
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: looking at.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: To say that we're very far away from it is, again,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: even putting it nicely because like it's it just doesn't exist.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Like it just can't exist, at least in that realm
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: of it, as you said, like moving it into something
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: like a natural phenomenon. And I do think going to
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: your position, you mentioned all these things like hallucinations and
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: tumors and things like that, that could be someone's subjective
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: of experience. Because a lot of people say like, I
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: experienced this thing, I saw it. And I think that
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: we sometimes have an assumption as a species, not necessarily
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: as scientists, That everything we experience is a direct and
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: 100% accurate representation of the world as it is. Sure.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: That is just not it. We are very limited in
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: our biological capability of interacting with this world through what
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: we can see, hear, touch, smell, feel, measure in any
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: capacity whatsoever or design equipment to measure. Right. Those things
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: are coming from our own culture and biases and sensory perceptions.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: And the thing is, like, our sensory system that we
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: have in our body is somewhat fragile. It does not
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: take very much to screw it up.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: And so, like, the things that we think that we
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: hear or see or smell, like, first of all, that
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: goes through a filter of a mechanical system through our body.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: But also there is a whole then software system in
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: our brains that has to process that information. Right. And
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: sometimes that processing happens without any actual sensory input. And again,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: that's the squishy, fuzzy software part of our body doing
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: things without information from the outside world. But we can't
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: tell the difference, right? Like, how would I know if
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: my brain, if like an experience I had because of
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: something that happened inside of my brain that made me
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: smell something, and I can't actually tell the difference between
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: that and me smelling something, you know, or should I
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: have smelled something and then it not make its way
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: to my brain? It would appear as an incomplete experience
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: of a real phenomenon that I'm participating in. And therein lies,
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: I think some of the experiences that people have where
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: they're like, I had this very strange experience. I am
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: not sure what to make of it. It must be
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: a ghost.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: You know, it mustn't be a ghost though, is the thing,
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: or it mustn't, you know, Yeah, or it must be–
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: that's going back to ghosts. Like it must be a possession.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: It must be a demon of something. I'm like it
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: mustn't be that is the thing though. It could like
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: let's first– going back to the parsimony thing, like let's
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: first figure out what is the most likely answer here
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: and understand that we are fallible in our ability to
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: perceive the world and that that can get screwed up
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: quite easily. Yeah.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we have to examine our wetware, you know?
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: Like, that's just what it is.
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: Like, you know, when we talk about this and we
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: talk about, like, brains in general are just these unique,
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: complicated things that are just, it's electrified meat. And when
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: you really think about what that does is, like, it
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: really truly is, it is a miracle of nature, right?
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: The way that brains work and the way that evolution
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: has happened and all that stuff and how we have
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: arrived today is really a confluence of infinite variables that
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: have led us to the place where we can sit
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: on microphones and we can talk about whether or not
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: a demon has possessed us. I mean, that is truly
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: a feat of the incredible, miraculous nature of biology and
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: evolution and all of those things. And the fact that
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: we wasted on ads is insane.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: All right, we're back. I think we've talked before about
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: things like neurology and brains and the fact that our
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: brains are where all of the other parts of our
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: body connect in one central hub. Because if you imagine... Yeah. Yeah.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: All of those sensory pieces, all of those motor functions,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: all of those biological functions, like we also need to
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: be able to consume energy and we need to be
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: able to, for some reason we don't fully understand, we
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: need to be able to sleep. we need to be
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: able to reproduce. So to have those biological systems work together,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: you need a very complex network that's going to bind
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: all of those. And having them in one central hub
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: is a very efficient way to do that. Not the
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: only way to do it, actually, though. There are actually
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: many creatures that have instead broken off their brains into
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: a Now, again, the brain that we have has allowed
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: us to do remarkable things. And our level of efficiency
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: and our ability to process sensory information and coordinate with
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: all these other things allows us to do incredible things
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: like have developed language, which has allowed us to mold
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: the universe to our liking, apparently. Right. Anyway, so you
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: can see how we eventually got there. Although I like
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: calling it a miracle in the sense that it's amazing.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: It's amazing that nature could do something like produce the
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: brains that we have. I mean, just unbelievable that we
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: got there. I would say... For my own history with
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: the word miracle, I don't like that word because I
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: think it implies that something like this could not have
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: arisen naturally. And it just, it did. Like it did
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: arise naturally, which is really cool. But like, anyway, that's, that's,
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: I wasn't even trying to push back on that just
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: to add a little bit of elaboration there.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: It's fair though. I think this is a nice way
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: to talk about it for sure.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: But we were really here to talk about spirits and
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: ghosts and, well, not even those things, mostly hauntings or possessions.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: And the reason that we've spent so much time on
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: the science part of this is because we then could
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: take all of that science piece and say, what does
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: this mean now for how we're thinking about possessions?
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so the phenomenon.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: That we're talking about, if we were to assume that
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: possessions are a phenomenon to explore, it just means that
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: this phenomenon that we're trying to talk about doesn't actually
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: meet the rigor of our basic assumptions of the science, right?
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: Not only is there no empirical evidence, explanations for possessions
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: do not follow observable patterns outlined by the requirements of determinism.
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: And further, we have available simpler explanations for observable changes
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: in a person. Or I say simpler, more readily available
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: explanations or more statistically reasonable explanations.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of great people working in this space
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: have gone through and figured out and they've debunked a
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: lot of the shenanigans that have been involved. So ultimately,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: it's just more parsimonious and predictable to understand the kinds
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: of extreme changes you would observe in someone who might
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: be said to be possessed and By looking at it
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: through a medical, psychological, behavioral, and social model, like those
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: things account for everything we see in what looks like
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: a possession. And that does a better job than leaping
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: to supernatural. events as the conclusion, as the variable of
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: interest here. And we just have so much more evidence
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: to support those claims because we have evidence to support
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: those claims. Right. And we have zero evidence to support
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: that is anything other than those things. Right.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: So, simply put, possessions, while they appear to be unpredictable
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: and scary to some people, like these are presenting concerns
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: for a lot of people, there's some challenging behavior that
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: might come up with this, they are better explained through
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: science than faith. It doesn't mean that we need to
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: take steps to undermine a person's experience, though, like we mentioned.
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: People have very, or they feel like they have very
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: real experiences with this, and what ends up happening is
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: the best language they have to describe their experience is
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: something like, I've been possessed.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: That might be the best.
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: Language they have or the best understanding they have of
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: that particular phenomenon. It doesn't mean that we take steps
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: to undermine it. And some people who believe they are
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: experiencing possessions are experiencing real crises with real consequences. Other
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: people are having enlightening experiences that don't require us pathologizing it.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: So like we have this understanding of like what's going
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: on in the world. And I think that like, I
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: think that we can kind of take steps back and go,
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: we can be scientists and be compassionate, understanding scientists and,
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: without having to undermine people's belief systems entirely.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: I think we can have those conversations.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think that we approach it from the position
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: of compassion, of humanism, of like, this is a human
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: being who's reporting some type of experience that they're having.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: And honestly, I think the more compassionate experience then is
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: to try and understand that using a scientific lens. Because
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: if you try to feed into that and lean into
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: this idea of whatever they're calling a possession or something,
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: you're going to exacerbate the experience and make it worse
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: for You're going to exploit that fear. You're going to
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: build their paranoia. You're going to create helplessness. So I
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: think trying to bring a level of compassion and understanding
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: that like you're a person who is having some experience.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: Let's see if we can figure out what's going on
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: here and help you. is ultimately, I think, a lot
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: more of a compassionate place to be than to feed
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: into that and to exacerbate it and prolong it and
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: make it worse. So I actually think that, yeah, that
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: is the more appropriate approach to take anyway. And I
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: do think that you could hear... I think that people
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: could approach this and say like, you're stupid. And like,
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: that's their, like what they're bringing to the table is like,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: I don't believe you, you're dumb. And I don't think
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: that's helpful either. But I think if we want to
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: think about like what we're doing as this, doing with
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: this as scientists in any capacity, then the approach that
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: we take is let's be compassionate and figure out what's
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: going on and not feed into whatever that person's traumatized
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: by in their own sort of language about that event.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Right, right. So.
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: As scientists, I don't think that we can scoff at
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: the idea that possessions appear ridiculous. I think rather we
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: embrace anecdotal data as part of our analysis, meet stakeholders
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: where they're at, and attempt to provide pragmatic support for
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: their concerns rather than leaning on ineffective and frankly dangerous
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: practices that are unlikely to be helpful, like exorcisms.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: I think if we lean into what's.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: Useful for that person to achieve whatever goals they're trying
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: to achieve, to make it so that they are suffering less,
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: that is, I think, the best way to approach these things.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: While we try to.
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: Approach this from a scientific lens and understand what might
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: have led them to this space.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: And thinking about this from that compassionate lens, spiritual practices
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: do play that important role in many cultures. So we need,
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: we must be careful not to write off spiritual possessions
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: as nonsense or In that way, I mean, creation stories,
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: shamanic practices, etc., they include important possession elements and they
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: play a vital role in the life of the transitions, guidance, counsel,
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: and more. And I think appreciating that these kinds of stories,
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: these kinds of beliefs, these kinds of religious practices in
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: many of these spaces... Like while they include some statements
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: about the world that are outside, they lean on the
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: idea of sort of supernatural things, gods, et cetera. That's
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: actually not the point of those things. They play a
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: different social role and psychological role that is important for
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: those communities that the fact that they use fantastical imagery
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: and stories as a foil is is unimportant in the
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: role that they play. And we'd be naive to believe
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: that a lack of explanation regarding causal features of spiritual
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: possessions mean that they are unimportant from that social standpoint.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Because it's easy, I think, to sometimes look at them
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: and say, like, you believe this, that's wrong. And whether
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: or not it's factually accurate is kind of irrelevant to
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: the point. The point is that it facilitates a social
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: connection or facilitates a social... I guess, practice or cultural
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: practice that's important to that community in another way. And
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: the thing on top of it, if you will, the veneer,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: the image that's created is done through that sort of
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: storytelling narrative lens. And that's okay. And so, yeah, I
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: think it's Yeah. Yeah.
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: Pete Holmes is a stand-up comedian. He said one of
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: the best things I've ever heard about all of this.
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: He said, God is the sheet that we put over
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: the unknown. And it's such a great way to explain
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: how people arrive to some of those conclusions and those explanations, right? Like,
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: I'm not a spiritual person myself, but I understand that reference.
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, that is fair. Like, God is the
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: metaphor that is the sheet that we put over the unknown.
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: And I was like, okay, sure. Like, I think that
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: that's a fair way to look at that.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: So.
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: I thought that was an interesting way, a very philosophical
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: way to approach it.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: But I think at.
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: The end of all this, I think the most important
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: thing is where we draw the line is not in
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: the reported experiences that people have, but in the treatment space.
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: We draw the line at treating possessions as possessions where
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: medical cause or some other important cause that is treatable
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: is present. And the person needs effective medical care or
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: they need some type of intervention that's going to improve
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: their well-being.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: Exorcisms are not it. And we know that. And we
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: know that from the episode that we did.
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: But otherwise, I think that that's– I think that allowing
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: somebody to believe that– to me, the intervention piece is
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: really where you have to draw that line. I think
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: that having conversations and– And all of those things and
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: kind of like the belief systems that exist, I think
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: is one thing. But like when people start intervening and
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: they hurt people, they waste time on interventions that don't
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: work when there are interventions that could help that person.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: I think that's where it's really important to draw that
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: line and say like, hey, we can't really do this
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: this way.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Beautiful. I don't even want to try and follow that
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: with anything. I think that was a great way to
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: end that.
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: Man. I thought that this was going to be a
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: funnier talk and it turned into a very insightful and
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: philosophical talk. So I'm glad that it turned out the
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: way it did.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: It was fun.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: I love the philosophical ones. I mean, I do appreciate
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: when we can bring a level of humor, but I
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: like the getting into the philosophy thing personally. Yeah.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: It's good stuff for sure.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: Probably at least one other person who listens to this
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: also likes that. Yeah.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: Well, if not, then you've got a whole episode of it. Sorry, folks. Indeed.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: Well, and so I guess for the rest of you,
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: here's an ad. All right, we're actually not done. I
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: hope that that didn't set us up for us being
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: done and people are like, oh, we're out now, and
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: then they just finished. We do have a little bit
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: more at the end of all of our full-length discussions.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: We like to recommend some things just for fun, for funsies.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: And we're going to do that today. They're usually unrelated
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: to our topic at hand. But first, there is credits
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: to get through, as I mentioned at the top of
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: this discussion. If you'd like to support us, there's lots
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: of ways that you can do that. You can leave
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: us a rating and a review, like, subscribe, or tell
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: a friend. And all of those things are very helpful.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: They actually help more people find the podcast. We do
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: get that ad revenue from the more people who listen
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: to it, the more that it makes for the podcast,
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: but also then people who tell their friends and find
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: some value and then write it and say nice things
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: and that... That fills the bucket of joy that we
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: try and have with us. in the things that we do.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: And all those things are free. Now, if you would
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: like to support us financially, you can do that too.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: You can head over to Patreon. And if you do that,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: then you get some ad-free episodes, early episodes, bonus content.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: And most importantly of all, I will read your name
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: in the list of people who have taken on supporting
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: us because we appreciate so much the generous, amazing, and
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: incredible commitment that these people have taken on to just
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: help us be a podcast for all the time that
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: they've been doing it. So a giant shout out and
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: thank you to Mike M., Megan, Mike T., Justin, Kim, Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Kiara,
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: and Charlie. Thank you all for your continued support.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: Y'all are just truly lovely.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: Truly the best. And of course, I do not make
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: this podcast alone. Writing and fact-checking from Shane and myself.
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your notes today, Shane. I
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: think this turned out great. Really good job.
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it turned out really, really nice given
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: how sleep-deprived I was. So I think it turned out
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: pretty good. Indeed.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: Indeed.
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And the audio engineer,
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: King Titan Majesty, who is so good at podcast editing,
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: is Justin. So thank you, Justin.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: The one above all, the end of all that is.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: The one ring, if you will.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: I think that is what we have to say about
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: that part of it. Is there anything that, oh, I
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: would actually like to, no, there's one more part. There's
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: one more thing I want to say, which is that
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: if you would like to tell us your thoughts on
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: anything that we said in this discussion on possessions or
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: anything else, you can email us directly info at WWD,
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: WWD podcast.com or reach us on the social media platforms.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: And we do look forward to hearing from you. So
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: thank you in advance. for doing those things. And if,
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: and when you do them.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, we love it.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: All right. Now, is there anything that I'm missing or
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: you'd like to add before we transition to recommendations?
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: No, not yet.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: All right. Recommendations. I'm recommending a book. It is a
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: book called A Walk in the Park by author Kevin Fedarko.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: This is a nonfiction book, but it is written in
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: a way that is one of the most.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: It's so well written. His writing style, his voice, it
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: is fantastic. It is so engaging. It is like... just
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: such a well-put-together story. It is a story about the
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: author and a friend of his going on what's called
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: a through-hike of the Grand Canyon, which is where they
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: essentially hike the entire thing. And it took... You do
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: it in chunks and then you like, you have to
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: stop because you just can't commit that much time to
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: a thing like this. But I think if I remember correctly,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: it took them about a year.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: Cumulatively to do it. So they do it for several
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: weeks at a time and then take a break and
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: go back and do the next chunk of it over
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: several weeks and then take a break. And that's just
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: really the only way that you can do it, I think.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: It's a harrowing story. There's a lot of parts of
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: it that are like, you read like, oh my God,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: like these people went through some stuff. Yeah. But it's
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: also just a very, very well done story. And I really,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: really like it. I think a lot of people will
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: enjoy it. As I said, it's one of the best nonfiction.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: The writing style is just so good. So you hear nonfiction,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: and I think you maybe think boring. This is definitely
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: not that.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: Because it's just telling their story. It's telling the story
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: of what happens to them. I'm given to understand that.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: So one of the two people who was on the
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: hike was on the hike to be a photographer. That
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: was his thing. And so you can actually go online
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: and find a lot of the photographs he took, and
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: they are breathtaking. Yeah. Many of them made it into
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: the book as well. I think there are maybe copies
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: of the book that don't have the pictures, but at
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: least the copies I'm aware of do. But they are
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: pretty stunning. So it's a really good read. I recommend
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: A Walk in the Park, which the title A Walk
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: in the Park is quite the understatement about this. Sort
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: of like when we recommended A Short Stay in Hell.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: That book did not adequately describe the length. The story
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: itself was short. The stay in hell was not. And
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: the walk in the park makes this sound like something
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: other than what it really was. But anyway, it's a
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: good book. I strongly recommend it. I love it.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: I love it. So I'm going to recommend a show.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: I say a show. It is a special.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a miniseries.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: And this came out a couple years ago. Yeah, it's
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: a cool little thing. And it's called Werewolf by Night.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: And it is Marvel, which is really fun. It's MCU specifically.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: And it is a monster movie. So if you're not familiar,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: it came out a few years ago. I'm sure I
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: recommended it then, too. But it was done as kind
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: of like a quick one-shot where it is about monster
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: hunters who are looking for this kind of relic. And
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: they also kind of all come together in this like
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: strange little space and all fight each other. But what's
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: really fun about this is it's like the Marvel Dark Universe.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: It's like mysticism and like weird, spooky creatures and whatnot.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: And the main character is Werewolf by Night, who is
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: played by Gail Garcia Bernal, who is fantastic. Love him
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: in everything that he's in. And also to, I'm sorry,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: and Laura Donnelly, who plays a character named Elsa Bloodstone.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: That's a very good name.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a great name.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: And she's important in the Marvel Universe, like for like
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: Ghost Rider and Blade and all that. Like she's in
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: that world where it's like vampires and monsters and demons
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: on it. Gail Garcia Bernal plays the title character Werewolf
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: by Night. or just Werewolf, whose alias is Jack Russell,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: which I love.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: I love that. It's like, okay, so Werewolf is named
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: after a tiny dog. That's fantastic. Anyway, it's really well done.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: It's kind of modeled after some old classic horror movies
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: like Dracula and Frankenstein and all that. It's got kind
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: of that feel and that vibe to it, but brought
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: up to date, a little bit more modern, a little
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: bit scarier. It's a really fun watch, and it's only
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: like an hour, so it doesn't take very long to
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: watch at all.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: I second that. I did really enjoy that series. I
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: would love to go back and revisit it because it
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: was such a unique and fun little twist on Marvel
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: and Disney. It should be available on Disney Plus for
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: people who have that. But yeah, just a special miniseries
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: type thing.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good stuff.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: So it's A Walk in the Park, a book by
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: Kevin Fedarko, and then Werewolf by Night, the TV show
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: miniseries special from Marvel. All right, I think that's all
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: we have to say about our topic today. Thank you
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: all for listening. This is Abraham.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: And this is Shane.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: We're out.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: See ya. You've been listening to Why We Do What
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: We Do.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: going to www.wwdpodcast.com.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day. Bye.