Latest / Constellations and all that... / 86. Family Constellations, Ancestral Roots & the Future of the Work with Yishai Gaster

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86. Family Constellations, Ancestral Roots & the Future of the Work with Yishai Gaster · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy: Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  Tracy: I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy: Kia ora, everyone.
• 0:34
  Tracy: Welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:37
  Tracy: Today, I have the pleasure of chatting with Yishay.
• 0:41
  Tracy: Is… Am, am I saying that right?
• 0:42
  Tracy: Yishay, Yishay?
• 0:45
  Yishai: That one.
• 0:46
  Tracy: Yishay.
• 0:47
  Yishai: Yishay
• 0:49
  Tracy: Gaster, welcome.
• 0:51
  Tracy: Welcome to the podcast.
• 0:54
  Yishai: Thank you, Tracy.
• 0:55
  Yishai: Thank you for inviting me.
• 0:57
  Tracy: Mm. I've been an admirer of your work for a long time, and I've, as I shared with you just a bit earlier, I've been, um, lucky enough to attend a number of your, um, offerings.
• 1:08
  Tracy: So yeah, it's a real pleasure to have you here.
• 1:11
  Tracy: So I'd love for you to introduce yourself a little bit to the, to the audience and to the listeners.
• 1:17
  Tracy: So this is recorded, you know.
• 1:20
  Tracy: Will be on YouTube as well as, um, Spotify.
• 1:24
  Yishai: Okay.
• 1:24
  Yishai: So Yishay Gaster.
• 1:27
  Yishai: I'm, uh, originally, um, uh, from Israel.
• 1:32
  Yishai: Still in Israel, but, uh, a big part of my life, uh, I lived, uh, in the UK, uh, in Japan, and in the US.
• 1:41
  Tracy: Mm.
• 1:41
  Yishai: Uh, but, um, with age, traveling has, uh… Ceased and I've returned back, um, more or less to the area where I was born.
• 1:52
  Yishai: Um, married.
• 1:54
  Yishai: I have three kids, three sons.
• 1:56
  Yishai: I'm… met, uh, Bert Hellinger and the constellation work, uh, around, um, '96 or '97 when he came to the UK.
• 2:08
  Yishai: I just graduated from, uh, holistic and integrative psychotherapy training.
• 2:16
  Yishai: Saw him, uh- Do the work, as it were.
• 2:20
  Yishai: Mm-hmm.
• 2:21
  Yishai: Uh, completely fell in love with it.
• 2:23
  Yishai: Uh, thought this is the holy grail of therapy.
• 2:29
  Yishai: Uh, as I was searching for the right therapy for a while.
• 2:32
  Yishai: Mm-hmm.
• 2:33
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 2:33
  Yishai: Um, and since then I've been with it.
• 2:38
  Yishai: So I've been to his workshops, and then had the more organized training with Albrecht Mahr, uh, somewhere around the 2000, 2000- Mm-hmm uh, 26 years ago.
• 2:51
  Yishai: Started with workshops.
• 2:53
  Yishai: Um, eventually, uh, arrived, um, in Israel in 2005, uh, where here it was just, um, nobody knew about it.
• 3:05
  Yishai: So I thought, that's not right.
• 3:07
  Tracy: Mm.
• 3:08
  Yishai: And so soon I, uh, established the, uh, or founded the Constellations Path, which is the organization, uh, that teaches, uh, therapists, counselors, coaches, and all kind of other, um, uh, people who, uh, are around healthcare.
• 3:29
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 3:29
  Yishai: Emotional healthcare, the work.
• 3:33
  Yishai: And, um, we mainly developed the, uh, one-to-one work.
• 3:37
  Yishai: Although we, we have more and more people who do the work, uh, group facilitations.
• 3:44
  Yishai: But I think our main forte is the, um, clinical constellations, which means constellations in the private practice.
• 3:56
  Yishai: Also, the whole, um, uh, field of constellations in the doula profession, the birth, uh, doula profession- Mm.
• 4:06
  Yishai: Mm … developed quite a bit here.
• 4:08
  Yishai: So we have constellations in the actual birthing process, not therapy birth, uh, birthing.
• 4:16
  Tracy: So while someone's physically birthing?
• 4:19
  Yishai: Yes.
• 4:20
  Yishai: When, mainly when they get- Oh, I'd like to hear more about
• 4:22
  Tracy: that … when
• 4:22
  Yishai: it gets… Mainly when it gets stuck.
• 4:24
  Yishai: Mainly when it's not working or- Right.
• 4:26
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 4:27
  Yishai: Um, or during the pregnancy when, when the babies don't turn around, and all these things that can happen in pregnancy.
• 4:36
  Yishai: So many doulas, um, have come through us- And, um, applied it
• 4:43
  Tracy: Oh, yeah.
• 4:43
  Tracy: Okay.
• 4:44
  Tracy: For a moment my brain skipped that bit that you talked about doulas.
• 4:47
  Tracy: I'm like, "How did you get into someone's birth process?" But nope, rewind.
• 4:53
  Tracy: Yep, doulas
• 4:54
  Yishai: are doing it.
• 4:54
  Yishai: Yes, not me.
• 4:56
  Tracy: I was like, just for a minute I went off somewhere else and I was like "How did I
• 5:01
  Yishai: ring
• 5:01
  Tracy: you up?" Hmm.
• 5:04
  Yishai: I'm not a doula, I'm a family constellation facilitator and trainer.
• 5:09
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 5:09
  Yishai: That's what I do.
• 5:11
  Tracy: Ah, okay.
• 5:11
  Yishai: Uh, so the constellation path we have today about 26 trainers, most of them in Israel, some of them abroad, uh, in, uh, Holland, in Portugal.
• 5:23
  Tracy: Wow.
• 5:24
  Yishai: Uh, in India, so they are moving around.
• 5:29
  Yishai: But the big chunk, uh, of trainings are here in Israel.
• 5:34
  Yishai: And so we have a huge community.
• 5:36
  Yishai: Small country, huge community.
• 5:38
  Tracy: Mm.
• 5:39
  Yishai: It caught up in the last few years in quite a big way.
• 5:44
  Yishai: I could say that every year we have anywhere between two to 300 trainees, um, who do- Wow the training.
• 5:52
  Yishai: And so it's- That's
• 5:53
  Tracy: amazing… Yishai: it's big numbers, S- sorry, t- sorry, um, when you say such a small place, what number, h- what are we talking?
• 6:05
  Yishai: Israel is around nine million people.
• 6:09
  Tracy: Okay.
• 6:09
  Tracy: So it's nearly twice as much as us.
• 6:12
  Yishai: Right.
• 6:12
  Yishai: Yes.
• 6:13
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 6:13
  Yishai: Okay.
• 6:14
  Tracy: So I was like, "Hmm, are we-
• 6:15
  Yishai: I'm kind of- we're
• 6:16
  Tracy: super small."… Yishai: comparing myself Yeah.
• 6:21
  Tracy: Yeah, but wow, and, uh, that's a, that's a really large number of students in that.
• 6:28
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 6:29
  Yishai: I think what made it that way, I think, is that, that graduates became trainers and it was organized.
• 6:37
  Yishai: And so having many trainers who do their own, uh, canvassing, their own promotion.
• 6:46
  Yishai: The way we work is that, uh, students have to go through a few trainers in order to complete the path, as it were, the mastery.
• 6:57
  Yishai: Something about the… I think something about that made it, um, successful, so popular.
• 7:05
  Tracy: So if a student wants to become a teacher, they need to go through multiple teachers themselves?
• 7:12
  Yishai: Well, first if they want to become certified before becoming- Mm … a teacher.
• 7:16
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 7:16
  Yishai: The object is not to make them teachers, it's to make them therapists or facilitators- Yeah … who work with family constellations.
• 7:24
  Yishai: Then if they want to join the faculty, then they have to go through some more hoops, as it were.
• 7:33
  Tracy: Great.
• 7:34
  Yishai: Um.
• 7:34
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 7:35
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 7:37
  Yishai: But to become a facilitator or a certified facilitator, then you have to go through a few trainers.
• 7:44
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 7:45
  Tracy: And that's great too, 'cause you've got… They've got their different styles.
• 7:49
  Tracy: It may be the same teachings, but there'll be some things that they come at different angles and, um-
• 7:54
  Yishai: Exactly.
• 7:55
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 7:55
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 7:56
  Tracy: And that's good too, because sometimes people jump in a little bit quick in wanting to be teachers, without having an, much knowledge and experience in the work.
• 8:07
  Tracy: 'Cause there's, you know, as we know, there's a lot behind it.
• 8:11
  Tracy: Fascinating.
• 8:12
  Tracy: I'm really fascinated about this.
• 8:14
  Tracy: Um, can you give me an example of what might happen, um, um, back to the doula.
• 8:19
  Tracy: Um.
• 8:21
  Tracy: What might happen in a birth that you would require a constellation?
• 8:26
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 8:26
  Yishai: Let's start with the first example ever, because that's kind of stuck in my mind.
• 8:32
  Yishai: When, when, um, uh, one of the trainees, uh, who was also a doula, um, was, uh, how do you say, not following or, or accompanying a birth process.
• 8:45
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 8:46
  Yishai: Uh, the birth was stuck for about, I don't know, 20 hours or so.
• 8:53
  Yishai: So no, the opening didn't carry on.
• 8:56
  Yishai: And, um, then she starts, started to, um, interview the, uh, mother.
• 9:04
  Yishai: And, um, the mother said that her first child was born a few years earlier, um, was born extremely sick and was in danger during the birth and so on.
• 9:17
  Tracy: Mm.
• 9:18
  Yishai: And then she told the mother to say to her, um, baby who's still in the, uh, womb, uh, just to tell him that his brother is waiting for him at home
• 9:34
  Tracy: Oh.
• 9:35
  Yishai: And within 20 minutes- Beautiful … the birth opened.
• 9:39
  Yishai: Wow.
• 9:39
  Yishai: So that's the systemic thinking.
• 9:42
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 9:42
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 9:43
  Yishai: So that was the first one, and it was so shocking the effect of such a intervention.
• 9:51
  Yishai: Uh, so that's one.
• 9:52
  Yishai: And then the others is when the family are coming in or the father or mother, the doulas already have a sense of family dynamics Or they, you know, invite the grandmothers, uh, you know, by imagery.
• 10:08
  Yishai: Mm-hmm.
• 10:08
  Yishai: Um, so it's mainly by imagery, by asking about family stories, uh, around birth, family trauma.
• 10:18
  Yishai: Many difficult births are to do with, um, sexual trauma.
• 10:23
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 10:23
  Yishai: And then, m- it's not conscious, so nobody knows that this is what's going on.
• 10:29
  Yishai: Um, but, uh, somebody who's been, a doula who's been to this work, um, knows that, you know, there's a story behind- Yeah a movement that is stuck.
• 10:42
  Yishai: And then she would try to find out.
• 10:45
  Yishai: And then once she, she gets a sense of what the story, what story is behind the, um, the stuckness, then she would either represent it with objects or just do, um, an i- imaginative, mm, process.
• 11:04
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 11:05
  Yishai: That kind of- In the mind's eye … disentangles.
• 11:07
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 11:08
  Yishai: That kind of disentangles, uh, the original story from the current situation.
• 11:14
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 11:15
  Yishai: So these kind of things.
• 11:17
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 11:19
  Tracy: That's fantastic.
• 11:20
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 11:21
  Tracy: Wish I'd known that with my last child.
• 11:24
  Tracy: You know, the things you look back on and you go, "Mm."
• 11:27
  Yishai: Yes.
• 11:27
  Yishai: That
• 11:28
  Tracy: wasn't relevant to me.
• 11:28
  Tracy: And I
• 11:28
  Yishai: didn't, when I had my children, I didn't even know there's such a thing as doulas.
• 11:32
  Yishai: Mm.
• 11:33
  Tracy: Mm. Oh, no.
• 11:34
  Tracy: Actually, was there doulas with my last one?
• 11:37
  Tracy: I don't think there was, but, uh, it's, yeah, it's a great, uh, thing for birthing mothers, I think, and for the family.
• 11:46
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 11:47
  Tracy: Wow.
• 11:49
  Tracy: I love that.
• 11:50
  Tracy: I love that you, that that has become something that has shown up for you in the field and, um, you know, it inspires others to look at that as well.
• 12:01
  Tracy: Are you, are you running the Constellations Pathway on your own?
• 12:05
  Tracy: Is this a, an organization or a,
• 12:10
  Yishai: a company or- Well, it kind of, uh… whole thing, of course, n- I felt something needs to be more organized and, um, I cannot run it alone.
• 12:21
  Yishai: Not run it.
• 12:21
  Yishai: First it was just me teaching it.
• 12:24
  Yishai: I didn't have- Mm. You know, it was just me going from door to door.
• 12:28
  Yishai: I felt like I'm a salesman.
• 12:30
  Yishai: Knocking on doors, "Look, I have this thing. You should try it."
• 12:34
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 12:35
  Yishai: And then I had one person interested, another person.
• 12:38
  Yishai: It was very, very slow.
• 12:40
  Yishai: I'm terrible at marketing, terrible at selling myself.
• 12:44
  Yishai: And then slowly I had graduates and I felt it should be, it should, I should not do it on my own.
• 12:51
  Yishai: I should not be the only teacher.
• 12:53
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 12:54
  Yishai: Um, but I could not, I didn't know how to work it out, so- I've did a constellation about it.
• 13:04
  Yishai: And then this structure came out of the constellation.
• 13:08
  Tracy: Okay.
• 13:09
  Yishai: Um, uh, this, uh, idea that there's a path, uh, the idea that, um, there is an inn, uh, as, as in the old days, olden days where merchants, uh, used to walk, uh- Oh, right.
• 13:24
  Yishai: Yeah … from inn to inns.
• 13:25
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 13:26
  Yishai: So you'd have an inn on every day's walk.
• 13:29
  Yishai: You'd have an inn on this like- So an inn like a
• 13:31
  Tracy: tavern sort of
• 13:32
  Yishai: place.
• 13:33
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 13:33
  Yishai: Yes.
• 13:33
  Yishai: Exactly.
• 13:34
  Yishai: Exactly.
• 13:34
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 13:35
  Yishai: Uh, that came up because where I was born was next to an, a- an ancient inn.
• 13:41
  Tracy: Oh, wow.
• 13:42
  Yishai: Uh, it a ruin kind of, but we kids, we used to play there a lot, and it was, like, our mystery- Yeah kind of place.
• 13:51
  Yishai: And that came up in that, uh…'cause I had a question, how do I organize this training?
• 13:59
  Yishai: So the whole inn concept came in.
• 14:02
  Tracy: Mm.
• 14:03
  Yishai: And so the idea is that the trainers are actually innkeepers.
• 14:07
  Yishai: And that the trainees need to move from one to the other in order to do the path.
• 14:13
  Yishai: I
• 14:14
  Tracy: love that.
• 14:15
  Tracy: That's fantastic.
• 14:16
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 14:16
  Yishai: And, um, that's how it was created, kind of a constellation.
• 14:21
  Yishai: And then I asked at the beginning the graduates, "Okay, who wants to be a trainer?" So it was just completely open, and that's how we got started.
• 14:30
  Yishai: Um, today, um, we have a council, so mostly the veterans, they join the council and, uh, and the council more or less r- runs the thing.
• 14:45
  Yishai: I mean, with me still at the head of it.
• 14:48
  Yishai: I'm not sure how long that's gonna carry on.
• 14:51
  Yishai: But, uh, I'm more or less at the head of it, but it's quite, uh, democratic, the council.
• 14:59
  Yishai: Like, four or five of us, but I'm still kind of the final… you know, where the buck- Mm-hmm … uh, stops.
• 15:07
  Yishai: And, um, I'm hoping to slowly move back and, um, hopefully somehow it… you know, it will carry on in some way.
• 15:18
  Yishai: But still a few years, but thinking- Mm … about it.
• 15:22
  Tracy: Well, what could you see yourself doing, if not constellations?
• 15:26
  Yishai: No, no.
• 15:26
  Yishai: Doing constellations definitely, but not running the thing.
• 15:29
  Tracy: Ah, yeah.
• 15:30
  Yishai: Not being in charge of all the, um, different procedures and different things that an organization… Leaving the organizational part.
• 15:39
  Tracy: Mm.
• 15:40
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 15:40
  Yishai: Um, but I, I don't see myself doing anything else.
• 15:43
  Yishai: I mean, I hope to write more.
• 15:46
  Yishai: Uh-
• 15:48
  Tracy: So, so you're a writer?
• 15:51
  Yishai: I'm not a writer, I wouldn't say that.
• 15:54
  Yishai: But I've got about four books in the making about constellations
• 15:59
  Tracy: I think that could make you a writer.
• 16:03
  Yishai: Yes.
• 16:04
  Yishai: But they are like kids, so I can't give them enough attention to each.
• 16:10
  Tracy: Mm.
• 16:10
  Yishai: So if I give too much attention to one, then I have to give to the other.
• 16:14
  Yishai: So it means that it needs more… They need more time for me to
• 16:23
  Tracy: actually complete them.
• 16:23
  Tracy: Well, I'm sure they're just, they're just full of your wisdom and, and, and knowledge.
• 16:27
  Tracy: Can you share a little bit about what was something that you really enjoyed about your time with Bert in, in those early days, the other teachers, Albert Mahren?
• 16:41
  Yishai: Well, I think the main thing was his energy.
• 16:45
  Yishai: Um, when, I mean, he had a kind of, um, what I would call a Jekyll and Hyde energy.
• 16:54
  Tracy: Mm.
• 16:55
  Yishai: For example, there'll be these moments that you think that grace is in the room.
• 17:00
  Yishai: S- like, you felt there's something quite profound going on in the room, just the energy.
• 17:06
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 17:06
  Yishai: And other moments you felt, "Oh, this is awful what's going on here right now." So you would move between one and the other.
• 17:14
  Yishai: But if you could, um, decipher a gift of him and his way he sees thing, things.
• 17:24
  Yishai: But it's not just the way he sees things, it's something about his energy.
• 17:29
  Yishai: I don't know how else to say it.
• 17:32
  Tracy: Does he have quite a presence about him?
• 17:34
  Yishai: He has a huge presence- Mm. Yeah about him.
• 17:39
  Yishai: Um, so I followed him from about'97, '96 where I first met him.
• 17:47
  Yishai: And I think the last workshop I did with him was somewhere around 2010 or 2012 More or less.
• 17:57
  Yishai: Every time I came back, it felt like I'm coming back to the spring where the whole thing is coming out.
• 18:04
  Yishai: And it didn't matter what he said, whether I agree with him or I don't agree with him, I just felt I'm drinking from the spring.
• 18:11
  Yishai: I didn't agree with many things, um, but I loved many other things.
• 18:17
  Yishai: And he was extremely inspirational.
• 18:20
  Yishai: Um, extremely inspirational.
• 18:23
  Tracy: So over time, um, a lot of Bert's work evolved and changed over the time, right?
• 18:30
  Yishai: Yes.
• 18:31
  Yishai: Yes, that's right.
• 18:32
  Yishai: Uh, in quite a profound way, I would say, in some ways.
• 18:36
  Yishai: And in other ways, um, I could say it was still the same.
• 18:40
  Tracy: Okay.
• 18:41
  Yishai: Um, I think his, um, actually method or technique has changed profoundly from moving people, so he would move people from one place to the other and then- Mm … ask them how they are, um, to allowing the movement to happen from the representations, from the representatives.
• 19:03
  Yishai: Um, so the whole follow the movement became, um, a thing with him.
• 19:08
  Yishai: Before, it was mainly him moving.
• 19:11
  Yishai: Um- Yeah, I've
• 19:12
  Tracy: seen some of those earlier videos where he's directing where people should stand or, and that-
• 19:18
  Yishai: Yes.
• 19:19
  Yishai: Yes … mm. He was, he used to take us if, with the hand and then move us from one place to another.
• 19:25
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 19:25
  Yishai: Um, and then, then the movement came in, like follow the movement and body movement and, and then the, um, the words, um, were deleted, were edited out, which means he would not ask anymore, "How are you?" And, and all these things.
• 19:44
  Yishai: Or, "What has changed?" Mm. Um, it became, uh, completely silent.
• 19:47
  Tracy: So not asking what the client is seeking or what the client is wanting to look at,
• 19:54
  Yishai: just- Well, I think it, first I remember it started with not asking the representatives how they are.
• 20:00
  Tracy: Right.
• 20:01
  Tracy: Okay.
• 20:01
  Tracy: Yep.
• 20:01
  Yishai: And then at some point, at least at the last workshop I was there, he did not even ask the clients.
• 20:08
  Yishai: He would just sit with the client, feel into the field, and then ask for people to represent.
• 20:15
  Yishai: Sometimes he would not even tell the people what they are representing.
• 20:19
  Yishai: So you could say it became a much more, like, field work or intuitive work.
• 20:24
  Tracy: Mm.
• 20:24
  Yishai: And, um, also, he changed the name from family constellation to, uh, movement of the soul, I think it was.
• 20:33
  Yishai: And then movement of the spirit, and the spirit mind.
• 20:36
  Yishai: So it became, in, in the way he viewed things, the way I understood it, more spiritual, um- Mm-hmm … kind of.
• 20:44
  Yishai: Um, where I met him at the beginning, for me it was very psychotherapeutic, very psychotherapy-like work.
• 20:52
  Yishai: So yes, these kind of things have changed.
• 20:54
  Yishai: His methodology has changed.
• 20:56
  Yishai: Some of his concepts have developed to be more… He started talking about spirit-mind and, and the way we come into life and live life.
• 21:05
  Yishai: So it became more, um, I would say, I don't know, philosophical, spiritual, um, something like that, and less therapeutic, less around psychotherapy.
• 21:17
  Yishai: He even, um, at one point kind of denounced psychotherapy and said,"This is the end of psychotherapy." Another quote I remember he said, uh, "Psychotherapists, uh, try to take my work," something like that.
• 21:32
  Yishai: This is of course out of context, just things that are left in my mind.
• 21:36
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:36
  Yishai: Um, so yeah.
• 21:40
  Yishai: I mean, he was extremely, um, how do you say?
• 21:44
  Yishai: Um, so he all the time carried on exploring and developing, and this is what was so, um, wonderful about each time you meet him, he's in a different place.
• 21:53
  Yishai: He's evolved.
• 21:54
  Yishai: He's developed the work.
• 21:56
  Yishai: So yeah, it, it was just always extremely nourishing to be in his workshops.
• 22:03
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 22:04
  Tracy: And how have you seen your own work ev- has it evolved from, or do you still s- are you still more traditional, or have you evolved?
• 22:13
  Yishai: Well, I wouldn't say I'm traditional.
• 22:15
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 22:16
  Yishai: I, I came from psychotherapy into the work.
• 22:20
  Yishai: Mm. So I hold a lot of psychotherapeutic, uh, concepts and ideas in my work.
• 22:25
  Yishai: However, um, I'm very much what one would call, um, you know, the… They are the people who are more client-centered, um, around the work.
• 22:36
  Yishai: So what's going on with the client or many names.
• 22:39
  Yishai: We don't call- Mm-hmm … them clients anymore.
• 22:41
  Yishai: They are seekers, they are issue-holders, they're all kind of names.
• 22:45
  Yishai: I still call them clients.
• 22:47
  Yishai: Um, um-
• 22:48
  Tracy: Oh, I
• 22:48
  Yishai: don't
• 22:49
  Tracy: either.
• 22:49
  Tracy: Sometimes I call them seekers, sometimes I call them hot seat holders, sometimes they're-
• 22:54
  Yishai: Yes… Tracy: clients, you know?
• 22:56
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 22:56
  Yishai: Yes, yes.
• 22:57
  Yishai: It, it's becomes more, um, creative you could say.
• 23:00
  Yishai: So I'm very much, uh, focusing, um, on the constellation.
• 23:06
  Yishai: So on the representatives and allowing the client to observe when it is group work, but I do a lot of, um, one-to-one work.
• 23:15
  Yishai: I've developed it, um, a huge amount because I understood early on that the main work will happen in the one-to-one work and not in the group work.
• 23:25
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 23:25
  Yishai: Because most people have a private practice, and most people do not work with groups.
• 23:32
  Yishai: So it was very important for me to develop m- the, what I call clinical constellation work.
• 23:39
  Yishai: So that, that is quite a strong part of my work.
• 23:43
  Yishai: But at some point, um, I got interested in the, uh, the Zulu tradition- Mm … influence-
• 23:51
  Tracy: Yeah… Yishai: in this work.
• 23:53
  Tracy: And so I decided to make contact, as it were, with the Zulu culture and actually travel there and then spend, um, quite some time with shamans or traditional healers, and that influenced me quite a bit.
• 24:09
  Tracy: Um, just being with them and hearing them and, uh, uh, I don't know, sucking from their energy or something like that.
• 24:18
  Tracy: That affected me- Being with them.
• 24:18
  Tracy: Immersing yourself in them.
• 24:21
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 24:21
  Yishai: Yes, yes.
• 24:23
  Yishai: That had quite an effect on me, uh, uh, and my way of working.
• 24:27
  Yishai: So I move between being like a psychotherapist who works with representatives and representations to being, like, I don't know, something much more ritualistic and, and, uh, chaotic and, and field work.
• 24:42
  Yishai: So it's all over the place for me.
• 24:45
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 24:46
  Tracy: It- Well, it, it, it depends too, doesn't it?
• 24:48
  Tracy: Who comes- Yeah … what's in their field, what's showing up, and yeah.
• 24:53
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:54
  Tracy: I get that.
• 24:55
  Tracy: Have you, how, um, I suppose you kind of answered that question.
• 24:56
  Tracy: I was gonna say, is there a particular, uh, w- 'cause you're focused on one-on-ones.
• 25:04
  Tracy: Um, but I think that question's a little bit void, really.
• 25:08
  Tracy: Are there, do you feel that in Israel there are, are things that are, are quite prominent?
• 25:16
  Tracy: Like for, for example, in New Zealand there's a lot of sexual abuse, there's a lot of suicide, there's a lot of grief and depression.
• 25:25
  Tracy: Mm. Is, is there something that you can, that you feel like sort of sits on the top, or is it
• 25:32
  Yishai: Well, I, I would say that, mm, the most, um, the theme that I meet most is around, uh, uprootedness and the loss of, uh, connection to the original culture.
• 25:47
  Yishai: Because in Israel people came from many, many other … I mean, they were all Jews, but they all came from different cultures.
• 25:53
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 25:53
  Yishai: You know, uh, Russian, German, Polish, uh, and then, uh, Yemenite and Ethiopians and, and, um, Moroccans.
• 26:03
  Yishai: And, uh, so … And they all came with their, um, with their original culture of that country.
• 26:11
  Yishai: And many of them, um, you know, lived there for quite a few generations, so very assimilated, um, in many, many ways, including even how they look.
• 26:21
  Yishai: Um, they look like the original culture.
• 26:24
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 26:25
  Yishai: And so this uprootedness and, um, many turning back on the original, turning their backs on the original culture or the, the families that uprooted and, and were separated then, those who stayed and those who went.
• 26:39
  Yishai: So this is-
• 26:39
  Tracy: So, so, so you're talking like migration-
• 26:42
  Yishai: Yes, yes … type of thing.
• 26:44
  Yishai: Very much.
• 26:44
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 26:44
  Yishai: Very much.
• 26:44
  Yishai: And it started- Mm … way back here.
• 26:47
  Yishai: So it's very, a lot of the work is reconnecting to origins, to cultural origin, to, to geographic, um, to actually some original land, original even house.
• 27:02
  Yishai: Um, people have lost everything and were either, um, chased here or ran away here or came here with, um, you could say we, we are kind of built on some mix between refugees and, uh, and ideal- ideologues.
• 27:19
  Tracy: Mm.
• 27:20
  Yishai: So when, but even the ideologues, they came because things were, they saw that things are not good.
• 27:27
  Yishai: So there's a s- so there's a kind of refugee background, being chased out of your, of everything, your property, everything.
• 27:36
  Yishai: And um- And
• 27:36
  Tracy: so what, what would be the biggest shift for them, if you were to think of anyone in particular that you may have worked with?
• 27:44
  Tracy: Once they're feeling that connection maybe to the homeland, or can they feel stronger to stay?
• 27:51
  Yishai: Well, it resolves so many things, uh, once the, the, the original culture is allowed to be part of their lives.
• 28:01
  Yishai: Mm. Because in Israel there was a huge, still is a huge, uh, demand that you, that you leave.
• 28:08
  Yishai: You become Israeli, with whatever that means, and you leave, uh, the original culture.
• 28:14
  Yishai: You speak the language.
• 28:15
  Yishai: You have to forget the original language, uh, in many ways.
• 28:19
  Yishai: And so reconnecting to the original cultures, it brings a huge amount of resources to people, and it resolves many things from relationships to parenthood to alcoholism to even to, um, depression.
• 28:35
  Yishai: Mm. Um, it just permeates so many things, this, um-
• 28:39
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 28:39
  Tracy: I guess we do have a lot of that here too, because, you know- There was a lot of Scottish and Irish and English and, and maybe even- Mm … those early settlers, Chinese, and- Mm … French, that came out that never went back.
• 28:54
  Tracy: They, they came to the bottom of the world.
• 28:58
  Tracy: Yes.
• 28:59
  Tracy: Um, yeah.
• 29:00
  Tracy: And my grandmother, she came out the turn of the… just after the turn of the century, and, um, she never went back to, to England.
• 29:08
  Tracy: But then other ancestors had been here for many generations.
• 29:12
  Tracy: So yeah.
• 29:14
  Tracy: It, it's, it's here as well, but, uh, maybe a little bit more disguised.
• 29:18
  Tracy: It's maybe not as on… Doesn't seem to be as on top as, uh, some of this other stuff, which is probably all part of it anyway.
• 29:27
  Tracy: Mm.
• 29:27
  Yishai: It's, it's, it's about roots, um- Yeah … in so many ways, and it's about connection to the past.
• 29:34
  Yishai: And, um, I mean, in my… the view that I, or the concept that I kind of developed in myself is that the more you are connected to your past, um, the more you are connected to creation,'cause that's your link to creation.
• 29:51
  Yishai: And some more, the more things from your past are connected to you and, and are there to support your movement, you are kind of, mm, bringing more and more, um, how do you say, pieces of the chain.
• 30:02
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 30:02
  Tracy: Links.
• 30:04
  Yishai: Yes.
• 30:04
  Yishai: Links.
• 30:04
  Yishai: Between links of the chain between you and creation.
• 30:07
  Yishai: And therefore- Mm … you are more resourced the more- Yeah you are connected to all these historical parts of your system.
• 30:15
  Tracy: That's beautiful.
• 30:16
  Tracy: Talking of resources, so on the weekend there was a lot of talk around resources.
• 30:21
  Tracy: How, how would you… What are some of the things that you would bring in to resource people?
• 30:25
  Tracy: Because when I first met constellations and the idea of resources, I, like, I just couldn't comprehend, what's a resource?
• 30:34
  Tracy: Because I didn't have any.
• 30:36
  Tracy: I really was, like, just sort of making my way through life.
• 30:40
  Tracy: Um, and then once I realized that I, I'm very s- strong on resources, bringing them in.
• 30:47
  Tracy: But yeah, what are some of the things that you would bring in as resources?
• 30:52
  Yishai: Well, first I would say that w- when I'm working, I don't call them resources.
• 30:56
  Tracy: Okay.
• 30:56
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 30:56
  Yishai: Um, but something about that term doesn't quite… I'm not quite sure how to- Mm-hmm … um, understand it.
• 31:05
  Yishai: But when I talk theoretically about it, then I use the word resources.
• 31:09
  Yishai: So resources, um, I would say first of all, anything that is missing takes away from the system.
• 31:17
  Yishai: We know that, of course.
• 31:19
  Yishai: Um, like the, the laws of the vacuum.
• 31:22
  Yishai: Uh, and anything that, uh, exists, um, helps the movement forward, so it pushes or supports the movement forward.
• 31:30
  Yishai: So the first thing is- To bring more of what is missing or who is missing.
• 31:37
  Yishai: And so to fill in the empty, the, the empty windows, the blanks, the, you know, whatever- Mm … is missing or whoever is missing.
• 31:46
  Yishai: Um, just from the physical, uh, or physics, uh, concept of when something is missing, it creates a vacuum, it takes away.
• 31:55
  Yishai: When something, uh, exists, it, it, it, uh, pushes forward the movement.
• 32:02
  Yishai: So that would be the first thing.
• 32:04
  Yishai: And then I say, you know, if you want, um, really to have life easier for you, a lot is about making peace with your parents.
• 32:15
  Yishai: And the more, um, you find yourself back in a situation where you are their child and they are your parents and you are taking and they are giving, the more you can find that in you, you are more resourced for life generally.
• 32:30
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 32:31
  Yishai: A- and of course, parents, it's not just the parents, it's all those behind them too.
• 32:36
  Yishai: So it, it's kind of gradually and then it goes more and more, you know, into original cultures, systems of belonging.
• 32:44
  Yishai: So belonging is not just about family, it's also about gender, it's also about culture, religion, uh, original culture,'cause w- we have original cultures.
• 32:56
  Yishai: You have two original cultures.
• 32:59
  Yishai: They are very important as a resource.
• 33:01
  Yishai: The more we have, uh, a negative concept about our ancestors, for example, all the, this colonialism idea, that takes away from us.
• 33:12
  Yishai: Because for them, they were not colonialists.
• 33:15
  Yishai: They were in a certain movement.
• 33:17
  Yishai: And then we talk about them as colonialists, so we are judging our ancestors, and that takes away from us.
• 33:25
  Yishai: But of course, there are the victims of that, so that has to be considered also, of course.
• 33:29
  Yishai: But somehow, at least from our roots, the more peace we have with our predecessors, our ancestors, the more they can, uh, support us.
• 33:43
  Yishai: So they become resources.
• 33:44
  Yishai: And then it can go over, as you can see, sometimes it goes all to, all the way to creation.
• 33:50
  Yishai: So creation would be a representation, as, as the huge force that pushes forward and then, you know, then it goes into archetypes and so on.
• 34:00
  Tracy: Mm. Yeah.
• 34:02
  Tracy: And they're so powerful.
• 34:04
  Tracy: Um, yeah, I know that for me the, the concept, I'll, I'll s- I'll call them resources.
• 34:10
  Tracy: The concept of resources has been quite life-changing.
• 34:13
  Tracy: And the, yeah.
• 34:16
  Tracy: And the feeling like I was like, like a duck and walk, you know.
• 34:19
  Tracy: Just, just making my way on the top of the water and, um, that's how it felt for a long time in my life, so yeah.
• 34:28
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 34:28
  Yishai: Really cool.
• 34:29
  Yishai: Here, because of w- what happened here 7th of October, and it created, um, such huge trauma.
• 34:36
  Yishai: Then I got to develop, uh, how to work with current trauma.
• 34:40
  Yishai: So not- Right … uh, not, uh, transgenerational trauma, but current trauma.
• 34:44
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 34:45
  Yishai: So working with inner parts, as it were.
• 34:48
  Yishai: With inner systems.
• 34:50
  Yishai: And then there was the whole thing of, well, what is an inner resource?
• 34:54
  Yishai: So that, that was another development, uh, when working to inner splits, inner, uh… And so there w- there is a lot of work with resources there, only, um, they don't have names as such.
• 35:08
  Yishai: Um, apart from usually what I say, what this part needs, let's add a representation- Mm … for what this part needs and what that part needs and-
• 35:18
  Tracy: I likes it, yeah.
• 35:20
  Tracy: 'Cause it's not co- it's not confining it to just one thing too, right?
• 35:23
  Tracy: It could be-
• 35:24
  Yishai: Yes, yes.
• 35:24
  Yishai: And the mind doesn't quite know really.
• 35:27
  Yishai: Our consciousness doesn't quite know what- Mm what my loss of self-confidence needs.
• 35:32
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 35:33
  Yishai: Uh, but the self-confidence knows what it needs.
• 35:36
  Yishai: Mm. So it's starting to, to go into the micro rather than macro and, and- Yeah… kind of open that space to constellation work and, and it has an amazing effect.
• 35:48
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 35:49
  Tracy: Yeah, because sometimes we don't have to put in… We don't have to name it.
• 35:53
  Tracy: It's just
• 35:54
  Yishai: changing.
• 35:54
  Yishai: Sometimes better not to name it- Yeah … and, and just, uh, discover it from the work.
• 36:00
  Tracy: Exactly.
• 36:01
  Tracy: Oh, fascinating.
• 36:02
  Tracy: Um, have you got any online offerings coming up that s- if someone wanted to join or just in learning a bit more about your work?
• 36:11
  Yishai: Well, I myself, the on- mainly the online is, uh, what I do with Jonine, uh- Mm-hmm and with the other people there.
• 36:21
  Yishai: I do give, uh, supervision with Merav.
• 36:24
  Yishai: Uh, online supervision to, to people who are practicing or about to practice.
• 36:29
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 36:30
  Yishai: Um, those are the main.
• 36:32
  Yishai: I've created, um, together with a partner, um, an AI constellation facilitator.
• 36:40
  Tracy: Sorry, a what?
• 36:41
  Yishai: An AI constellation facilitator.
• 36:44
  Yishai: Oh.
• 36:45
  Tracy: Okay.
• 36:45
  Yishai: So we developed it over a long time, and we've just come out with it.
• 36:49
  Yishai: So we're quite excited about that.
• 36:53
  Tracy: So you've launched that?
• 36:55
  Yishai: Yes.
• 36:56
  Yishai: Just launched it m- three or four weeks ago.
• 36:59
  Tracy: Um- And where would someone find that?
• 37:01
  Yishai: It's, it's in my, my website, my Facebook, um- Okay.
• 37:06
  Yishai: Yeah … my Instagram.
• 37:08
  Yishai: Um, it's an interesting development.
• 37:11
  Yishai: There's a lot of, um… There's some people who are not happy about it because there's the fear of where is AI taking us and what will happen with humanity.
• 37:20
  Yishai: And I think it's a right fear.
• 37:22
  Yishai: At the same time, it's a big movement that is happening, and just to say no to it, I don't feel it's right.
• 37:29
  Yishai: So, so I thought, "Okay, let's do it." So it's a very interesting process and, um, it's for people who, who feel more or less comfortable with AI, um, and do constellations.
• 37:42
  Yishai: Um, that could be quite an interesting process for them.
• 37:46
  Yishai: Ooh.
• 37:47
  Tracy: Okay.
• 37:48
  Tracy: As in it would do a whole constellation for you or-
• 37:51
  Yishai: Well, right now it's, it's… we're limiting it to more, like, coaching constellations, so not family constellation, because we don't quite trust it to do that.
• 38:03
  Yishai: So they're all structured constellations, like goal constellations or relationship cons- They, they are very structured for now.
• 38:11
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 38:11
  Yishai: We- they're not, um, too, too open.
• 38:14
  Yishai: We, we don't try to work on emotional issues.
• 38:19
  Tracy: Because
• 38:19
  Yishai: AI
• 38:20
  Tracy: doesn't have emotions, does it?
• 38:22
  Yishai: It doesn't, but it doesn't need… Um, if you think about, um… How can I say?
• 38:27
  Yishai: Uh, if you are representing, everything that the… most things that, uh, a facilitator would ask is, "What's going on for you?"
• 38:37
  Tracy: Mm. Yeah.
• 38:38
  Yishai: Right?
• 38:39
  Yishai: And, uh, "Where would you like to move?" Or, "If you were to move, where would you move?" And so on.
• 38:45
  Yishai: So we… the facilitation is, is divided into two.
• 38:48
  Yishai: Uh, one is asking and exploring, and the other is intervention, which means, "How about you move there," or, "Look at that person," or, "Say this to that person." So there are two separate.
• 39:01
  Yishai: So we are just using the first part, which means all it can do, it can tell you at least the first representation support, and then all it asks is,"How are you doing? Please connect to this representation. What's going on?"
• 39:14
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 39:15
  Tracy: " Yishai: Connect to this representation.
• 39:17
  Tracy: See what movement wants to happen." That's all it does.
• 39:20
  Tracy: It cannot give you ideas.
• 39:22
  Tracy: Mm.
• 39:23
  Yishai: And because when you talk everything is, uh, transcribed, so then you can have it all, uh, emailed to you and then, um, yeah.
• 39:31
  Yishai: It's an interesting different way of- It is… Tracy: working with it … and it's ch-
• 39:35
  Tracy: changing times, isn't it?
• 39:36
  Tracy: Like, there's definitely… Um, it's the, it's the unknown.
• 39:41
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 39:42
  Yishai: It's very unknown.
• 39:43
  Yishai: But it's fascinating, you know, to move with it.
• 39:46
  Yishai: I mean, constellation for me was already a leap into the future.
• 39:51
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 39:52
  Yishai: Yes.
• 39:53
  Yishai: It took, for me, it took all that was around in the psychotherapeutic world and made it into one thing and made the leap into some futuristic way of doing therapy.
• 40:05
  Yishai: For me, that's how it felt.
• 40:07
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 40:08
  Yishai: And so- So
• 40:08
  Tracy: maybe, and so AI, not e- necessarily artificial intelligence, but ancestral.
• 40:14
  Yishai: Yeah.
• 40:15
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 40:15
  Yishai: So we have a- Interesting … um, I mean, constellation was about, I think somewhere at the end of acknowledging what is the, the book, Bert Hellinger's book.
• 40:25
  Yishai: He said something.
• 40:26
  Yishai: There, there's a kind of, it's like an interview, and she asked him, asked him, "What are you most," I don't know, "worried about or focused about?" Or something along those lines.
• 40:36
  Yishai: And he said, "About the future." Because constellation is, is mainly about the future.
• 40:41
  Yishai: It's about your next step.
• 40:43
  Yishai: It's about moving forward.
• 40:44
  Yishai: Moving forward, yeah.
• 40:45
  Yishai: It's about success.
• 40:46
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:47
  Yishai: Um, and he moved all the time.
• 40:50
  Yishai: He didn't stay.
• 40:51
  Yishai: He moved, um, and he kept looking for the next thing.
• 40:55
  Yishai: And so I think that's an, it is an important energy, I don't know how to call it, um-
• 40:59
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah… Yishai: to take from him.
• 41:01
  Tracy: To keep developing, keep developing.
• 41:04
  Tracy: Well, it's an awareness, isn't it?
• 41:05
  Tracy: 'Cause once something shifts, you're not staying there, and the, the movement and-
• 41:09
  Yishai: Right… Tracy: there's always this evolving Can't stay where we were because that's no longer there.
• 41:20
  Yishai: That's right.
• 41:21
  Yishai: That's…
• 41:22
  Tracy: Oh, fascinating.
• 41:23
  Tracy: Well, thank you so much for your time.
• 41:26
  Tracy: Um, yeah.
• 41:29
  Tracy: It's been a real pleasure to chat with you, and, um, I know that you have so much wisdom to share.
• 41:33
  Tracy: So if anyone's interested, just reach out to, um, to Yishay on his website.
• 41:41
  Tracy: We'll put the link in the thread.
• 41:42
  Tracy: And, um- Good … yeah, have a check out this AI Constellator and see what this is all about, for those who are interested.
• 41:50
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 41:50
  Tracy: Thank you.
• 41:51
  Tracy: It's fascinating.
• 41:52
  Tracy: Yes.
• 41:52
  Yishai: Thank you so much for inviting me on your podcast, Tracey.
• 41:56
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 41:56
  Tracy: My pleasure.
• 41:57
  Tracy: My pleasure.
• 41:58
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 41:59
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 42:00
  Yishai: Really enjoyed it.
• 42:00
  Yishai: Thank you.
• 42:02
  Tracy: Thank you for listening.
• 42:03
  Tracy: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 42:08
  Tracy: You'll find me at tracey.cartwright.
• 42:11
  Tracy: That's Tracey with no E .cartwright.
• 42:14
  Tracy: And, or head over to my website, traceycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
• 42:24
  Tracy: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.