Latest / 85 Percent: A Wanderful Podcast / Special Edition: The Radical Joy of Queer Travel with Lindsey Danis
Transcript
- Beth: Hello everyone. Welcome, welcome. Come on and get situated and come in. however you it in. Welcome. We're so glad to have you. my name is Beth Santos. I'm founder and CEO of an international women's travel community called Wanderful. ⁓ I am the author of a solo book called Wander Woman, which is hiding behind me. And ⁓ I love, as an author, the chance be to read other books that have come out into the world. I am intimately familiar with like the experience of. getting these books. I want to say like birthing the books into the world because that's like how it felt for me. But but it is such a process. And so when new books come out, it's just such a great opportunity to celebrate them. And I am really, really excited to dig in with all of you and to celebrate a new book that's out into the world. It's Lindsey Danis's book called Out on the Road The Radical Joy of Queer Travel. And we have Lindsey here to talk about it. Welcome Lindsey. Thanks for being here. Yeah. speaker-1: Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to chat. Beth: ⁓ I can't wait to dig in. So Lindsey, the book is out. When did when was it published? speaker-1: ⁓ it came out the first week of May. So it's almost two months old. Beth: How does it feel to have a newborn baby book in the world? speaker-1: ⁓ I mean, it was just something I had been working on for so long, kind of by myself, right? And then widening the circle a little bit, sharing chapters with trusted readers and the manuscript with my editor. And then all of a sudden, like having something that anybody die at the bookstore. You know, shout out to my mom, she did. And she's like, dying, mom. But you know. It just felt different. Beth: You know what? I feel like you need those superheroes though. Like having a mom who can be the one who like walks into that Barnes and Noble and is like, by the way, this is my kid. Come here. We're gonna sign the book. Like I I make my husband do that sometimes because I don't want to be that person being like, Hello, this is my book. May I for you? Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, no, it's okay then yeah, cheers for those boosters. Beth: So tell us a little bit more about the book itself. Like what's inside? What can you expect? And let's start there. What is it? It's tips. It's a little bit of everything. speaker-1: And yeah. I know it's a bit of a hybrid to describe. ⁓ so I say that it's an affirming and joyful guide to queer travel. and then I always end up kind of explaining to people like it isn't a guidebook. You're not gonna find like lists of the best places to go inside. It's gonna tell you everything that the guidebooks don't cover. so like it goes from, you know, things like personal safety to paying for travel and the realities of that, given the economic disparities that queer people face. And it talks about, you know, coming out and gender identity and how that impacts travel and moves, you know, and builds toward all of the transformation of travel and the fun and pleasure of travel and joy for this audience that really hasn't been given that. And I know that's a topic that you feel passionate about and you speak about in your book as well. Beth: I'm giving people a little visual as you talk because I just want to look. Even though I can't hold up the book cover, I'm just gonna like present it like this to show you all. But I love that. And you're right. I think it's funny this this new genre of book that's like not quite a memoir, but also not a guidebook, like you said. Like it it's not like here's the, you know, here's my packing list, or like here's you know the top places to go. And but you're really talking about something that's a little bit more evergreen. Why did you decide to do that? Why not do like a guidebook? speaker-1: I just think, well, A, some of those exist. So like Lonely Planet, Rough Guides, all those traditional guidebook houses have kind of put out LGBT travel books curating the best and safest places to go around the world. Or I know for Rough Guides, they have one for Europe. ⁓ and I just feel like as much as like I'm old fashioned, I turn to guidebooks every time I travel, like I don't use social media to plan travel at all. Beth: You use guidebooks every time you travel? Like paper one? speaker-1: Yeah, heck yeah. I get them out of my library. ⁓ my go buy what they have and an ebook format. Beth: I love that. Good for you. You know what though? It's funny. Like, I'm like giving you such a hard time, but actually, I'm like about to leave for a trip this afternoon. And my first thought was like, I actually want a guidebook. Like, this is a whole other conversation, but it's like, I feel like guidebooks are having a renaissance for their purpose, which is different, but like there's a very specific purpose. And I'm like, I don't want to look online anymore. I just want to have like a book, even if it's speaker-1: ⁓ I think that like, and we could talk about this all day and we won't, but just for a comment, I think that everything going on with Google and the AL AI overviews and everything has really disrupted our sense of trust. Yeah. And when information is coming to us that we find online, we're like newly critical of it. Like, well, whose perspective is this? And like what experience do they have? And you know, there's time and place for everything. Like there's a time and place for me to read an update from a blogger who's been somewhere once about the toy that they want and why they loved it. You know, because sometimes I want like that first person perspective of like this is the best tour to do in this region and like here's what to expect. And sometimes I just want something more authoritative. Beth: No, I think that's fair. I think that's fair. And then also I think you're identifying a really cool opportunity here with the book that you wrote, which again is not a guidebook, but really is more of like the like emotional journey and like the identity journey and some of these things that are more of like Like a lifetime experience, you know, it's not just like what am I doing for this trip and where am I going? It's like it's so much more than like that transactional experience of just what am I getting out of this, but also really kind of encouraging you to think about your own identity in the world. And tell me about the process of writing this. Like, was that always your vision or how did it evolve over time? speaker-1: ⁓ gosh, it evolved over time. So period. So much, you know, moment of realizing in a writing workshop, based on how interested people were in the stories I was sharing on this, like that this wasn't just something that was an essay, it kind of needed to be a book length form. Yeah. And so for like several years, it was kind of a back burner project where when I had the spare time, I would kind of think about ideas or what interested me. But it didn't get a lot of attention and focus from me. ⁓ and then I think I got to the point where I was ready to to bring it kind of center stage and really intensely worked on like the book proposal and the sample chapters, which for anyone listening who who hasn't gone through this experience with a book like this, you kind of write a couple of chapters, write like a business plan for the book, come up with an outline and then shop that around. And like if somebody buys it, you get to write the book, and if they don't, you don't. Yeah. Right. So like that's a lengthy high-stakes process because you only get one shot. So from the proposal that I had, I ended up cutting a few chapters because every chapter of the book that I was writing like went longer because I found that I had like so much to say. Beth: Did that like happen by surprise for you at all? Cause it did for me sometimes. You're like you start writing and you're like, Do I have a lot? And then you're like, ⁓ actually I have a lot. speaker-1: at once. Yeah, I think it was like being able to write without the constraints of like a a freelance assignment word count, you know, whereas before this I had been fitting, you know, a topic like coming out while traveling into like a 1200 word brief, right? Which is just like not even possible. Right. And so I hear I got like kind of unlimited space, right? Like the book had a word count, but I didn't have a per chapter word count. ⁓ so I found I had a lot more to say. Beth: Yeah. speaker-1: I also wound up incorporating into the book kind of like tips, questions, imprompts at the end of every chapter. And if you take all those together, those are like over 50 pages of the book. So I wasn't necessarily planning to have them in there at the outset, but they I love them now. So I'm glad that they're part of the book, but they also took up a lot of space. Beth: Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. But then it also it really enriches the book. You know, I think it gives the reader like so many different ways to interact with it, right? It's not, it can be storytelling, which just helps people be seen and kind of like show some of the examples of this. And then it also has, I really appreciated, you know, as a as a queer ally, like the there are a lot of like hard stats that you put in there. Like, let's talk about this in terms of. the buying power of the LGBTQ plus community, you know, and like why this shouldn't be left. And and because of that, I think the and again, like I'm always thinking about this in the context of my book. And when I wrote my book, I feel like the audience is very clearly like one person. It is like the solo female traveler who like wants to go or solo woman traveler who wants to go out and kind of see the world. But I think for you, you have so many different audiences because of the way you've written this. You have the audience of a queer person who is trying to go out into the world and maybe has reservations. But then I also think that you have like a really strong audience of just industry, sort of better understanding this demographic and why it's important and why it shouldn't be left behind. Can you talk about like what historically has brought you to this point of being like, guys, you are not paying attention to like this huge consumer base? speaker-1: Yeah, I think, you know, what first brought me into this topic was the personal experiences that I had. And I I share many of those moments in the book, but just, you know, the ways that my experience was shaped by my identity and how other people perceived me. So that's what got me, you know, sort of looking for these stories and paying attention to these stories. But what I found fascinating as I began to really follow the topic and follow what else other people were saying were these data points. You know, where these surveys on how often queer people travel. ⁓ and you know, we are more likely to have passports than the general population, right? So why is that? Like, I don't know, because so often on these surveys, they're not asking the qualitative questions. Yeah, they're only asking the quantitative ones, but I have theories on that, right? I have theories on like, you know, this inherent. You know, nervousness that we have based on queer history, based on how we've been treated, even just in my lifetime, that's changed so much that we feel the need to have like an escape hatch if we need to use it. Right. And so I think that like the data points to me became a way to speak to those industry people or to arm our allies in the industry with information they could turn around and take to maybe the reluctant higher up or the higher up who thinks like, ⁓ this is way too niche. Like, why should I? Bother, right? Why should I hang a rainbow flag on my hotel in June or offer like a Pride Month package? Or like, why is it important for me to show images of same-sex couples, you know, getting married at my wedding resort? Like, marriage is legal and everyone is welcome here. And it's like, no, you actually need to go deeper. ⁓ yeah. And I was really inspired by, you know, the work that you have done in Wander Woman and the work of the Black Travel Alliance in really bringing the data and making the cases to. for travel to be more inclusive. And so it was great for me to have these examples that have been successful in the past to like inspire me and know that I wasn't like just shouting alone into a void, but joining this chorus of voices. Beth: No, but I I think that's I think that's a great point. And by the way, thank you for the compliment. I will mail you your five dollars after this. ⁓ but the, you know, it's it's one of those things where it's like, do we want do we do we want to have to, you know, share this, like do we have to make a business case out of this? You know, like is this the direction that we have to go in order to make this? But I think like that stuff cannot be understated. And and sometimes it does fall back to, you know. presenting to somebody who who may not be so inclined to like read this whole book and say, hey, Mr. Boss White Man, like this is actually a really important thing to pay attention to. And that's how change happens. You know, it's like really kind of focusing on like, let's look at each individual consumer and what they can bring to this table. And ⁓ and there's like real, real money at stake. And I think in like in in some of the things that we talk about at Wonder Bowl of like 85% of travel decisions are made by women. Like literally your consumer base is women. So you may as well just, you know, like may as well just focus on them. And so so I think that that's it's really nice how you've kind of put that together. I want to talk a little bit more about the content of the book itself. Because one other thing that I really loved about it was first of all, like let's just talk about the title for a minute. Like the title is called The Radical Joy of Queer Travel. Like that is such a beautiful and positive, you know, view on queer travel, which I don't know if we're always given like that kind of nuance when we're talking about it. I think similar to like women traveling solo, it tends to be more like here's how you avoid danger, here's how you, you know, whatever, fit in or don't fit in. Like, can you talk about Why you decided to position it that way? speaker-1: Yes. So like you were saying, you know, so much of the information that we get, you know, and I think I compare in the book that it's very similar for women and queer people, you know, we get constantly information and questions and concerns over our safety. You know, and the impact of this of having everybody in our life say, ⁓ you're going there. Is it safe to go there? ⁓ you're like. You know, how are you taking care of yourself or what are the risks? Like being constantly questioned in this way can be really demoralizing. It can create like a lot of anxiety where, you know, there doesn't need to be so much anxiety. And I wanted to strike a balance between taking seriously the risks and the fears because they're there, you know, and I didn't want to bypass them. But what's missing from like the way that we talk about those risks and fears is really a strategy. It's like so cool, you know, it's not legal to be queer in this country. Well, what do I need to know if I'm gonna go there? Right. And we usually get sidetracked into like questions of why would you possibly want to go there? Or like, you know, is it morally right or wrong to do that? You know, and I I spend a lot of time in the book in a very nuanced way, like getting into those topics, but just to like connect it back to Joy, I wanted to arm people with like the information and tools they need to sort of understand and evaluate risks. based on their identity because it's different. You know, it's different if you're traveling around as part of a couple versus solo versus if you're transgender or non-binary. You know, all of those are different experiences and yet the concerns are similar and overlapping. ⁓ and so I I really wanted to kind of cover that groundwork I just Beth: No, I love this. I'm like, no, shut up. I'm just gonna like speaker-1: Like the tools, the tools that they need to sort of build that confidence, build those travel skills for people who maybe right, like the economic barriers are real and the anxiety and fears are real. And so recognizing that, you know, not all queer people ha come to travel, feeling like they have a place there, feeling like they can be there, feeling like they can even be themselves. Right. And so building and moving toward, you know, travel is pleasure. It's fun. We build memories with people that we love when we travel with them. Like, you know, and we can do it in ways that positively transform us, uplift us, like bring us joy. And so building through, you know, like the narrative arc of the book was moving through the tough stuff, through the concerns toward that place of joy. Beth: I think it's like a very holistic way of looking at it too, which is just, you know, yeah, all of these things can exist in this universe, you know, like the dangers and the the harm and the safety and the joy and the freedom and and like many contradictions. And that's just what it is to be a human, you know, is to live in contradictions. And I think speaker-1: Life in the same five minutes to feel like afraid and then resilient or like afraid and then empowered. Beth: Right. No, absolutely. Well, and and I think it also it changes, you know. I think ⁓ I think it is so easy to fall, you know, kind of putting my Wonder Woman hat on again, like it's so easy to fall into these generalizations, even about travel, like, ⁓ you know, and and I've I've complained so much about like top 10 safest places for women to travel alone, type list, for example, because for for many, many reasons, but like if we take like one of those reasons, it is that. Your experience in a place is never the same twice. You know, your experience changes based on many things. It changes on the environment, it changes on the political situation, it changes on the neighborhood that you're in. It also changes on you and like how you feel and how experienced you are, and maybe how much you've planned for this or not planned for this, and what you look like and what you look like that day, you know, and like so many different things. And so I it becomes this gross generalization just to be like, this place is safe, this place is unsafe. And I think, ⁓ I think even more so when you are managing multiple intersections that then may be affecting your experience in many nuanced ways at once. And it's like extremely hard to just kind of put that into a top 10 list, you know? Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. And then of course if you go there and you didn't feel safe or you didn't feel welcomed, then you must have done something wrong. Right. I think that's the other thing that that framing invites into the conversation is like, well, you know, Massachusetts is very safe. So if you went to Massachusetts and you didn't feel safe, like what were you doing? Beth: Right. Yeah, you did something wrong. So so let's lean into some of that advice a little bit because, you know, especially talking about queer travel in in the context of like going on vacation. I think a lot of the advice, you know, there's there's a lot of questions of like, do you out yourself, do you not out yourself, do you make yourself smaller? Do you hide like what are what are your best recommendations for not necessarily every single thing people should do in those moments, but how they should be approaching these questions for themselves and kind of making the right questions for themselves. speaker-1: Yeah. So I'm a big fan of research. and I like to look at the laws in every place that I'm going and then just understand like based on what I'm finding and also say like social attitudes, right? Because like the laws are one thing and a place may be more welcoming than its laws suggest or less welcoming than its laws suggest. Right. But kind of doing my due diligence to understands like You know, when I land in this place or when I get out of my car at the rest stop, like what environment am I walking into? And that's just like being prepared, right? ⁓ And then so based on what I learn, and I have exercises in out on the road on this, you know, thinking about well, what situations am I likely to encounter? Right. And if I'm in, let's say, a very like gender typical society. Right, whether that's here in the US or overseas, like I often get misgendered, right? And so that's something that I know from experience is probably gonna happen to me. Right. And so what are the situations where I might be misgendered? And based on the culture that I'm in and like who I'm traveling with and you know, how much I wanna take on versus how much I just wanna be on vacation and rest, like what am I gonna say? What am I gonna do? When am I gonna let things go? And when am I gonna advocate for myself? Right. And these questions are in the book because like the answers are so context dependent. Yeah. You know, and there are times when it's like you just want to rest, you don't want to challenge, and that's totally valid. And other times when the priority is like, I wanna be me, right? And so if someone's not perceiving me correctly, I wanna, you know, educate them or advocate for myself or like insist that I'm seen as who I am. Right. And so I think all of this is hinting at like a level of complexity. You know, like it's not as easy as just going on vacation. ⁓ but that really gives you back as the individual like some of that power that like the constant framing around safety or, you know, evoking of like scary things and anxieties really takes from you. Beth: Well and I think also you're maybe giving freedom to people to make their own choice in the moment that's right for them, you know, and to kind of not I I appreciate how you're really kind of exploring these topics, not by saying like, this is what you should do. You should always, you know, you should always self-advocate or like you should always whatever, out yourself and be who you are. You should like always hide, you know, or whatever. Like I think, I think really giving people like a deeper understanding of how these things do change. In the moment and with time. And you might just be having like a crappy day that day, and you just don't want to have to put yourself out there. And like those are all perfectly adequate things to do. It is your choice, like how you're going to handle those things. And and I think like having questions to kind of work through so that you're at least going in with awareness. of of what could happen. So maybe you've mentally prepared yourself for like, okay, you know, this ultimately is my choice, but maybe here's some things that I'm going to think about as I do it. And that's gonna kind of help me make that decision and give myself grace. speaker-1: Yeah. And I think when you kind of give yourself the time to think through this in advance, anything that feels really fearful or scary becomes much more manageable because you've thought about it. You've thought about, well, like if these things come up, you know, here's what I'm gonna do, here's what I'm not gonna do, right? Like and so you're not just like walking around the whole time in fear. ⁓ you know and There's also like in the book, there's so many personal stories. And so, you know, even just around coming out, there are stories shared around people who, you know, pretended to be friends with their partner and traveled kind of incognito and where they were traveling and why that felt like the right decision for them and how they did that, as well as stories from people who came out, right? And who felt like, no, I'm gonna be me, or like, you know, I'm gonna try to explain in this situation, like. who I am and what my identity is. Right. So like there are lots of stories I think that readers can relate to and understand, you know, not just the theoretical like, you know, constraints that we're talking about, but like, ⁓ these are actual people having these experiences. And this one really stuck out to me and like take from that what they will. Beth: Yeah. I still remember one of my favorite stories that I wrote about in my book was was a friend of mine who was talking about how when she and her wife would travel together, they were always just like, whatever, we're friends, you know, like cool, we'll just kind of let it be like that. And then when she started traveling with their children, she realized how things changed for her, as like she never wanted her children to sort of like, you know. kind of internalize like ⁓ that we're ashamed or ⁓ so like she would then start much more outwardly correcting people because she was like I want my kids to be proud of this and I don't want them to feel like I'm hiding something. And I thought that was like a really good example of two like perfectly adequate choices, but maybe presented a different context. It became like very clear to her like, no, no, I I want to make sure my kids feel like they belong in this world, you know, just like we belong in this world. And ⁓ so I thought that was cool. ⁓ me like your favorite travel story from your book? What's like what was like the one that you loved writing the most? speaker-1: ⁓ man, there were so many good ones. I think one of my favorite chapters to write was the digital nomads chapter because that chapter starts with like an anecdote of me at like the last, you know, real job I ever had where I like had to show up in an office and work for somebody else, being like so bored and just like turning to travel blogs as a way to escape and like reading my favorite blogs and dreaming of like. a different kind of life than I had. And so for that chapter, I got to interview people who were living that life. You know, and I had this really fun interview with this woman who like was one of those late to life lesbians, figured out, you know, after she was married, you know, when her kid was going off to college, that she was queer. And so like got a divorce, totally changed her life. You know, left her job, took money out of a retirement account, and just gave herself like this really beautiful sabbatical to like get to know her identity, to travel and see the world. And, you know, before that point, she'd only ever been to like all inclusive resorts. So she really had to like figure out, you know, how to travel alone, how to meet other people in the queer community, all of this stuff for the first time. And like know she was really open with me about what that changed in her life and what that opened up for her. And I think that there were so many beautiful lessons in that story, you know, that anyone can relate to around like her feeling freedom and permission that she had never felt before. That, you know, even though she's back and she has a job again in traditional life, you know, she's not nomadic right now, but she still carries that freedom around. Beth: Love that. I think it's such a good example too of how travel is such a two-way street, you know, and it's like, I don't think we talk about that enough. How yes, you go and explore and experience a place, but that place also experiences you and has an impact on you. And I think like sometimes it's like the more you can give to it, the more you can get from it, right? These can be really incredible self-growth moments. And so I can only imagine like what it must have felt for her to be in this context of like feeling like she was fully in tune with herself. You know, and what that kind of experience would have done for her. And maybe even how people would have been like interacted with her differently than, you know, because she felt like she was more comfortable just kind of like being being that whole self. Right. speaker-1: Right. You know, and as someone who's very femme presenting, like she found herself in the position of often having to come out because people would just presume if she walked in the gay bar that she didn't belong there. Right. And so like having that experience, ⁓ you know, of having it out herself or, you know, affirm that she belonged in that part of the community like constantly. Beth: What do you hope that people will take away from this book? speaker-1: ⁓ my gosh. I hope people will feel empowered. I hope people will feel excited. And I hope people will like understand that travel is about so much more than fear when you're LGBTQ+ plus and that you don't have to be afraid of the world. And that doesn't mean, know, like as we've been discussing, striding through the world, you know, ⁓ a rainbow flying on your backpack, ⁓ you know, coming out to everyone you meet, you can do it in a manner that feels comfortable to yourself. And that can also change over time. Beth: I love that. I think that's beautiful. By the way, everyone, if you haven't gotten a copy of this book yet, you absolutely need to. It is such a great read. I think I devoured it in like two days. I just chugged through it. Like so many good stories, good advice, and some very, very compelling stats. This is like a fun hack, by the way, everyone. If you don't speaker-1: Yeah. Beth: feel like you can buy a book for yourself. If you call, or a lot of times it's an app now, your local library and request it, they often look for what people are asking for. So they will buy what their clientele is asking for. So you can just call up your local library and be like, can you please get a copy of Out on the Road? I would like to read it. And then you're basically buying a book without having to pay for it. And you're getting access to other people too. So ⁓ so definitely do that. What's next for you, Lindsey? Travels, another book? speaker-1: I mean, I hope another book. I am giving myself a break and I am going on vacation. Yes. Beth: I think that sounds like the exact right way to celebrate a book launch. And I hope that you you're like, yeah. ⁓ my God. It's so much work. Well, and it's like it is it's it's so much work, but it's also, I mean, I hope you feel so proud of yourself because it is it it is a really big and and I think people only those those few of us speaker-1: You know what it's like. It's so important. Beth: Those few of us were so elite who have like gone through this journey. But but I think I think writing, and and as everyone knows, Lindsey is like an extremely accomplished writer who's done a lot of writing for all sorts of publications. But you alluded to the fact that writing a book is different. And it is, and I think, I think the there is like a an emotional process that you go through in writing a book because you do have the freedom to just kind of keep going until you stop. Right. And then you go and edit it later. But I think because of that, you sort of reach these levels, these like deeper levels of thought than I think we're honestly able to do on like regular life nowadays, you know, because it's not, ⁓ I have 140 characters to work with or ⁓ I have twenty two hundred characters or whatever it is. It's really, it's kind of giving yourself the freedom to just investigate feelings and questions and thoughts in writing. And we don't get a lot of that opportunity. So ⁓ so I always found it to be so fulfilling, but also so much work because you are really exposing like every inner feeling of yourself. And then you are just making it available publicly. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, there were definitely some times where where I felt vulnerable while I was writing the book. For sure. Beth: but but you know what, I know it's making a big impact for people. And I think when you get to those moments of like deep vulnerability, that's where people feel like they're being spoken to, you know. And so so I think I hope that this book has already started doing that for you and that it just keeps living on and on for for people who need it, because that is just the best medicine that that someone could have. speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. And you know, this is like my final public-facing book event. And I've been doing these since the book came out in May. And like every single time I've gotten to talk to readers, you know, chat about the book, like, you know, people are just telling me how they feel touched, how they feel inspired, like which is it's so fulfilling, especially after, you know, this long withdrawn writing time to kind of have that exchange with people. Beth: Lindsey, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you taking the time, especially during Pride Month, which is a very busy. speaker-1: I know, very busy. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. Beth: You're so welcome. Best of luck. Have an amazing vacation. And everyone else, thanks for being here today. We appreciate you coming along. Bye for now.