Latest / Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News / Moving from surviving to thriving through the lens of a female

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Moving from surviving to thriving through the lens of a female · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:04
  Good day.
• 0:05
  Welcome to the Midday Report on the America Out Loud News Talk Radio Network.
• 0:09
  The countermomentum was spin.
• 0:10
  I am your host, Dr.
• 0:12
  Franco Musio.
• 0:13
  To our friends listening in the United States and around the world, I keep saying this, there's no lack of hard news items.
• 0:19
  My goodness, especially this weekend at the White House correspondence dinner, what's going on in Iran, if you notice that the Iranian situation, which is every single moment is changing, that's taking a little bit of a back seat to Washington, D.C.
• 0:34
  So there's no no lack of hard news items.
• 0:37
  And it keeps our adrenaline glowing going.
• 0:40
  Our aim, though, on this show is to dissect out the nuances and and of course the underlying causes and foundation, uh of which we are in contact on a daily minute-to-minute basis.
• 0:53
  So today's show is going to be a little bit different.
• 0:56
  I'm titling it moving it.
• 0:58
  Uh well, actually, Jackie has helped me with this quite a bit, moving from surviving to thrive through the lens of a female.
• 1:05
  Or per my wife's interpretation, you cannot have it all at the same time.
• 1:10
  This is what she said.
• 1:12
  Um, so I'm thrilled to introduce for the first time to the show Jacqueline Jackie Jones.
• 1:17
  Uh she's a senior technology and media executive uh with a long, long track record of leading large-scale transformation initiatives across global organizations, which I'll mention in a minute.
• 1:28
  She's currently serving as the VP of strategic projects at a very large tech firm.
• 1:35
  Um, she's held executive leadership roles at Disney Streaming at BAM Tech, where she led uh Global Product Strategy, she launched Disney's Plus, uh ad supporter tier, uh, and managed high-value partnerships with major brands, including Major League Baseball, Home Box Office, HBO and Verizon.
• 1:55
  She's founded her own consulting firm.
• 1:58
  Maybe I should consult her, um, uh, or have her uh I was thinking about that.
• 2:03
  So uh advising companies across media, sports, uh fintech and telecom and business strategy and organizational design.
• 2:11
  In addition to this, she's a gifted athlete.
• 2:15
  She doesn't know that, but she is um to her professional work.
• 2:19
  She provides mentorship to other women in tech.
• 2:22
  And I would gather she could also do it to men too, but the this show is about women, and also serves as a uh board advisor to the Children's Science Museum of Virginia.
• 2:32
  So, Jackie, welcome to the show.
• 2:35
  Thank you so much.
• 2:36
  It's good to be here.
• 2:38
  Yes, thank you.
• 2:39
  Uh so over 50% of our listenership is women.
• 2:42
  So uh everyone is waiting for your insights.
• 2:45
  But indulge me, indulge me with a brief introduction to this topic.
• 2:50
  And what I'd like to do is to dedicate the first part of the show to to really challenges, overall challenges women have.
• 2:58
  Then we can delve into meld into thriving, how that can be kind of uh we can transform the challenges to thriving.
• 3:06
  And then I'd like to get if time allows here to get into a really interesting study from 2023, sorry, uh, women in the workplace.
• 3:15
  Every year, actually, this study comes out.
• 3:17
  So, yes, the role of women in the workplace has evolved dramatically, moving primarily from domestic roles to making up nearly half uh of the labor, the U.S.
• 3:28
  labor force, about 47%.
• 3:31
  Uh, yes, it involves breaking into male dom typically male-dominated industries and increasing presence in leadership and evolving from low-wage uh temporary factory jobs into higher ranking, uh much higher ranking executive positions, although although facing challenges for sure.
• 3:52
  For we're going to talk about in a minute, the gender pay gap, the broken rung, things like that.
• 3:57
  So a brief timeline.
• 3:59
  This is kind of interesting.
• 4:01
  So from the pre-1900s to the 1940s.
• 4:06
  So roles were women's roles were combined typically to agriculture, to textiles, to um domestic service.
• 4:14
  And then there was an industrial, of course, revolution, brought women into factories, and we had World War II.
• 4:20
  Um, and that was a turning point showing that women could perform manual labor in war industry type factories and projects.
• 4:30
  Then after 1945, participation surged as women entered.
• 4:35
  It was called pink collar.
• 4:37
  So, like teaching, nursing, a lot more, a lot more teaching, nursing, secretarial work.
• 4:43
  But then the 1950s to 1970s, uh, despite a push to return to the home, post-war women uh no, they entered the workforce in force, uh, particularly married women.
• 4:58
  And it was driven by economic necessity, of course, and increased clerical roles.
• 5:03
  Now, the shift to professionalism uh and and the legal rights, 1960s to the present.
• 5:10
  In 1963, the early 1960s is really a pivotal period of time in our society.
• 5:15
  The Equal Pay Act and subsequent anti-discrimination laws paved the way for women to move into corporate and professional fields.
• 5:23
  So the 1970s and go forward to today, women have increasingly broken into male-dominated sectors like like law, medicine, corporate management.
• 5:36
  And as of 2020 or so, women have um through many different studies, hold approximately 42% of all management roles, managerial roles in the U.S.
• 5:48
  So they're holding positions now more and more as CEOs and founders, but it's not been easy.
• 5:54
  Uh, and it remains challenging.
• 5:57
  So, Jackie, what I'd like to do is to go through a number of these particular challenges just through through my reading and speaking with a lot of other people throughout years and years.
• 6:10
  So, what I want to do is go through that and and get your subjective experiences and anecdotes.
• 6:19
  And what I'd like to do after that is kind of transform the challenges into uh into points in which women can actually thrive.
• 6:28
  We'll speak about later.
• 6:30
  So let's start with the gender pay gap.
• 6:33
  So, yes, yes, women receive lower pay than men for similar type work, for example.
• 6:39
  Uh disparity driven by bias and of course occupational segregation.
• 6:44
  So today, 2026, the gender pay gap has actually not improved uh for the second consecutive year.
• 6:52
  It's actually worsened a little bit.
• 6:54
  So women typically are making 81 to 82 cents for every dollar.
• 6:59
  And if you look at the statistics, so this is 18 and 19% less.
• 7:00
  At the statistics.
• 7:01
  So this is 18 or 19% less.
• 7:03
  So it if you look at the average, they're losing roughly about 14, 15,000 dollars of annual income.
• 7:03
  So it if you look at the average, they're losing roughly about 14, 15,000 dollars of annual income, and potentially much more than that.
• 7:11
  Potentially much more than that.
• 7:13
  So I'm gonna start stop talking so much and hand it to you.
• 7:13
  So I'm going to start stop talking so much and hand it to you.
• 7:18
  Yeah, it's true.
• 7:18
  Yeah, it's true.
• 7:19
  I mean, the the pay gap is there and it has been there for quite some time.
• 7:19
  I mean, the the pay gap is there, and it has been there for quite some time.
• 7:23
  And, you know, I think part of the reason for it not changing is women, um, particularly my generation um have come to just accept it as a point in fact.
• 7:23
  And you know, I think part of the reason for it not changing is when.
• 7:36
  Um not everybody, but but a lot of people have.
• 7:41
  Um and I don't see that changing, at least um for for my generation, Generation X.
• 7:49
  Um, I think, you know, part of the the issue there for for women is not so much that they're not getting paid um at the same like if they come into a company and getting the same salary, it's that they're disproportionately not promoted um at the same rate um as their male peers.
• 8:11
  And part of that is is, you know, we have to take ownership of our own as well and and not asking, right?
• 8:18
  Um women tend to not, you know, really promote themselves and um ask for these increases um and promotions.
• 8:30
  So, you know, that's part of part of the issue.
• 8:32
  Um, but you know, I think also it's there is clearly um a lack of investment um these days in gender diversity um and DI overall.
• 8:47
  Um so it's made it increasingly difficult for women uh to evangelize for themselves.
• 8:55
  So you're saying part of it is their own fault, maybe you know, it it there's always two or three sides to every story, right?
• 9:04
  Um, I found in my my own career, um, despite my successes, I found it quite often uncomfortable to um request an increase or a promotion or any of those things.
• 9:21
  Um it's it's a I I'm not sure what the psychology around that is.
• 9:26
  I'm not um a professional there, but I I have struggled with that in my career now.
• 9:33
  Yeah, that's interesting.
• 9:34
  Yeah.
• 9:35
  Yeah.
• 9:35
  Yeah.
• 9:36
  Well, why do you why do you you know we're gonna touch on that, but why do you think?
• 9:40
  I mean, you're uh you're not a psychologist, I'm not a psychologist, but we have brains, and uh that's interesting.
• 9:47
  That's interesting.
• 9:48
  That that I mean, in my own personal experience, I think it's because I tend to be somebody who is who's happy to be where I am um and I work hard for what I have.
• 10:01
  And of course you do.
• 10:03
  Um and I think I just um, you know, didn't until very recently in my career didn't really understand my own value.
• 10:13
  Yeah.
• 10:14
  Um that that you know, you're speaking work.
• 10:18
  You're speaking uh from what I'm reading, and I'm reading a lot on this, uh you're speaking the the party line, so to speak, but the actual party line that most women attest to.
• 10:29
  So let's talk about the broken rung and leadership gap.
• 10:34
  So this women are underrepresented at all levels, and then particularly in senior lead senior leadership.
• 10:41
  So did you know only 29% of C-suite roles, so uh uh uh of leader really leadership roles are women.
• 10:49
  And the broken for those who don't know, I didn't, it's the phenomenon in which the jump from entry level to first time manager level remains the biggest obstacle for women, specifically um if you look at the data for every 100 women promoted or men, I'm sorry, men, for every 100 men promoted uh from early early on in the company, uh going to first time manager, uh only 81 up to 93.
• 11:18
  The the statistics are all over the place.
• 11:20
  81 or 93 uh percent of women, and much worse for Latina and black women, 60 percent reach that first step.
• 11:30
  So the glass ceiling, the glass ceiling is the C-suite, and but if you don't have the broken, if you don't have that first rung, uh fewer and fewer women reach upper level management.
• 11:42
  Yeah, it's an in it's an interesting phenomenon, particularly since you know, having worked for both men and women executives, um, I'm I'm often surprised at how powerful women actually are in the C-suite space.
• 12:00
  Um, and as managers in general, um, you know, I know for me, um my broken rung experience was I actually fell into management.
• 12:13
  There was um a gap, an opening because somebody left a company that I was at and they panicked and looked around and there I was um and they said, Well, would you like to try it?
• 12:24
  And I said, Well, sure.
• 12:26
  Of course.
• 12:26
  Um, but you know, I think you know, management and getting breaking into management, there's um, you know, there's some level of ambition required.
• 12:38
  Sure.
• 12:38
  And it's not that women don't have ambition, it's that they are much more aware of the costs.
• 12:45
  And um women have many more seasons to in their careers than the workplace accommodates for.
• 12:54
  Um, and depending on when those management opportunities present themselves, it may not be a season where you know we as women are ready to take on that responsibility.
• 13:07
  Um what do you mean by season?
• 13:10
  So season.
• 13:12
  Um, so you know, there's for women it's you know, you're you're in your 20s and you're starting off your career, and then you know, some of us um get married and and start having children, and um, you know, there's all sorts of different times in our lives where we're more or less inclined towards our careers.
• 13:36
  And um, I know for myself in particular, um, when my son was born, I actually took um a lower level position um in a part of the company that was not you know growing um because I wanted to be able to spend more time with my son and work from home.
• 14:00
  Sure.
• 14:00
  Sure.
• 14:00
  It makes sense.
• 14:00
  It makes sense.
• 14:01
  And makes sense.
• 14:01
  And makes perfect sense.
• 14:02
  That was my that was my priority, but in order to do that, I I had to take a step down, really.
• 14:03
  That was my priority.
• 14:05
  But in order to do that, I I had to take a step down, really.
• 14:11
  Um no regrets.
• 14:11
  Um no regrets.
• 14:12
  Um I I loved that time I had, but then you know, at a certain point when my son was, you know, going to growing school, then I felt like, okay, now I have the option to reinvest in my career.
• 14:12
  Um I I loved that time I had, but then, you know, at a certain point when my son was, you know, going to growing school, then I felt like, okay, now I have the option to reinvest in my career.
• 14:27
  Right.
• 14:27
  Right, right.
• 14:27
  Right.
• 14:28
  So that's great.
• 14:28
  So that's great point.
• 14:30
  No, go ahead, sorry.
• 14:31
  I interrupted you.
• 14:32
  There's there's been other times too, you know, with um family sickness or um, you know, other times in my career where I had to be the caregiver.
• 14:43
  And so I really had to kind of um step back from my ambitions.
• 14:49
  Yep.
• 14:49
  Um, and take a breather.
• 14:51
  These are all these are all excellent points.
• 14:53
  And for those who are pointing towards higher level positions, so you're talking about a mixture or a hybrid uh of of the broken rung, but then other life issues as well.
• 15:05
  But uh entry level work or mid-level work, transition, so these these careers uh going up to the higher level are uh are put on hold or or at times derailed.
• 15:17
  So um uh the other thing is this, or or I I I shouldn't say derailed, but but they're um maybe stagnating.
• 15:25
  If your goal, if your goal is to get to the upper level, maybe it's not.
• 15:30
  Um uh my wife, for example, man, she had the potential for sure to be president or CEO.
• 15:36
  She didn't want to be.
• 15:38
  So that's a whole nother issue.
• 15:39
  So if you don't want to be, um, and you're you're happy where you are, so more power to you.
• 15:47
  More power to you, right?
• 15:49
  That's with any that's with anyone.
• 15:51
  Men as well.
• 15:52
  I mean I think that's the biggest thing here, the biggest topic and the thing that I have discovered, um, is you really have to understand what your wants and desires are.
• 16:03
  I mean, I always thought, you know, I went to got my MBA, I thought, oh, I'm gonna be a CEO one day.
• 16:10
  Um, you know, now um here I am in my my early 50s.
• 16:15
  I'm very successful.
• 16:16
  I have all the things that I'd want, but I'd never want to be a CEO.
• 16:21
  I I like doing what I do, um, which enables me to have the lifestyle I have, but I don't want to have the lifestyle.
• 16:30
  You're gonna be in for a surprise because you're gonna be a CEO.
• 16:36
  So what what about that?
• 16:38
  Well, you know, as my dad would say, um, you know, you're the CEO of your life.
• 16:43
  Well, that's walking to a room like a CVO.
• 16:45
  That's a good point.
• 16:46
  Um but you know, they I guess what I'm saying is the title no longer impresses me.
• 16:53
  Yeah.
• 16:54
  Yeah.
• 16:54
  Um I am the CEO of my life.
• 16:57
  Yes and I am um hiring, firing and promoting as required.
• 17:04
  Yes.
• 17:05
  Um good point.
• 17:07
  Good point.
• 17:08
  So hold that thought.
• 17:10
  We have many, many more coming out of your uh in terms of your insights.
• 17:15
  So we're gonna stop for a commercial break.
• 17:17
  See how fast this goes?
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  Uh and we will be back in no time.
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• 19:28
  And we are back with uh Jacqueline Jones.
• 19:32
  Jackie Jones.
• 19:33
  Um and so Jackie, you were bringing up some excellent points about being CEO of your own life.
• 19:40
  I like that.
• 19:42
  I like that metaphor.
• 19:43
  But let me talk about some other things like this microaggressions.
• 19:49
  What are microaggressions?
• 19:50
  So these are and they're directed potentially mainly to women, but they can be to men as well.
• 19:56
  So it's it they're kind of daily, sometimes daily.
• 20:00
  They're they're brief verbal behavioral or kind of environmental slights, um, which are intentional or unintentional.
• 20:08
  So it communicates something hostile or negative, negative message to the person or marginalized group.
• 20:16
  So th they're often unconscious, they stem from hidden biases.
• 20:20
  There's quite a few in this this field of women in the workplace.
• 20:24
  Uh, but they can cause significant psychological harm over the course of time.
• 20:29
  So examples would be comments like, um, boy, you're too smart.
• 20:34
  You're really smart for your race, aren't you?
• 20:37
  Um something like that, which you know, on the surface it could be funny, but no, it's not.
• 20:42
  It could be taken in a very bad way.
• 20:44
  I have a good one here.
• 20:46
  Um, do you remember when Biden, who was uh uh uh Obama's uh underling is vice president, he was talking about Obama, like he was saying, well, you know, he's he's so slick, he speaks so well, and he looks so good, and um, but Obama was his boss.
• 21:00
  He looks so good.
• 21:01
  And um, but Obama was his boss.
• 21:04
  So what he was saying in essence was he's African American, and for an African American, he's very well polished and well spoken, etc.
• 21:04
  So what he was saying in essence was he's African American, and for an African American, he's very well polished and well spoken, etc.
• 21:13
  That's a good example.
• 21:13
  That's a good example.
• 21:14
  Uh uh, but but and he was below Obama.
• 21:15
  But but and he was below Obama.
• 21:18
  So anyway, um, so these microaggressions, have you been through any of the I suspect you have been.
• 21:18
  So anyway, um, so these microaggressions, have you been through any of the I suspect you have been.
• 21:25
  Oh, yeah.
• 21:25
  Oh, yeah, um, no question.
• 21:26
  Um no question.
• 21:27
  Um, particularly since um
• 21:27
  Um, particularly since um I'm in technology, um, I'm surrounded.
• 21:34
  I'm usually the only woman in the room in quite a quite a few of the positions I've held.
• 21:40
  Um, and um, you know, it's it's gone from everything from microaggression, little comments here and there to to full on harassment.
• 21:51
  Um it's it's interesting.
• 21:52
  I was talking to a colleague um of mine just a couple weeks ago about this, and he said, but you know, you seem not to be bothered by it, it doesn't seem to affect you, you're still doing so well with your career.
• 22:06
  And I said, Well, but see, I just accepted it a long time ago.
• 22:10
  I'm not sure that's the right thing.
• 22:12
  Um, but I just accepted that that's where we are um as you know, as a race right now.
• 22:21
  Um that said, it it you know, I I have had to um address it in several instances, um with various different ways.
• 22:32
  You know, sometimes it's with um comedy, you know, uh pointing out the microaggression in another micro aggressive way, um sometimes it's ignoring um and and sometimes you have to do more than that and take it on head on.
• 22:51
  I found that um my best um strategy with microaggressions is to understand the context and the person.
• 23:03
  So good point.
• 23:04
  I I you know intent goes a long way, right?
• 23:08
  Yeah, um and I think most of us know when it's intended to harm and when it's not, um, and you deal with it excuse me, um, as appropriate.
• 23:20
  Um I never, you know, I try to um take it out of the room.
• 23:26
  So I'm not one to respond, particularly if it's in a group environment in that setting.
• 23:31
  Right.
• 23:32
  Um I found the best strategy is to leave it where it is and then come back to it once I've had time to think.
• 23:39
  And if I think it's something that needs to be addressed, then I take the person aside and I address it.
• 23:44
  Right.
• 23:44
  Um Yeah, I I think that that makes perfect sense and intent is is very important.
• 23:49
  That that's that's for any human relationship, you know.
• 23:53
  That's for any exchange between human beings.
• 23:55
  So these can be disguised as jokes or or even compliments or or innocent, innocent questions.
• 24:02
  But when I say innocent, they could be innocent, but maybe not as well.
• 24:07
  So sometimes these particular perpetrators that they can't recognize their own bias, many times they do, obviously.
• 24:14
  And when you bring it up to them, if you brought it up to them, have you ever had a situation in which the person really was not intending to hurt you?
• 24:23
  And you brought it up, and they said, Oh, oh my god, I I'm so sorry.
• 24:27
  I I really did not mean that.
• 24:29
  Had that ever happened?
• 24:31
  Yes, most definitely.
• 24:32
  Um, and in fact, the individual that I'm thinking of, when I pulled him aside, and I said, I want to tell you a story.
• 24:42
  And he said, Okay.
• 24:43
  And we were friends, by the way, like not close friends, but but friends in the work nuts.
• 24:49
  And I said, Let me tell you a story.
• 24:51
  Um, I I was talking to this person, and they said the following, and I essentially said what he said to me.
• 24:57
  And I said, What do you think about that?
• 24:59
  He's like, that's awful.
• 25:01
  You need to address that.
• 25:02
  And I said, I am.
• 25:05
  Uh-huh.
• 25:06
  And what did that person do?
• 25:12
  And he was like, Oh my God, I am so sorry.
• 25:15
  And you know, it it was kind of a little funny, but it was serious at the same time.
• 25:21
  Yeah, yeah.
• 25:22
  And I tell you what, not only did he take it to heart, but he refers to it a lot.
• 25:30
  Um you taught him something.
• 25:33
  Exactly.
• 25:34
  Um, you know, I think it's again, intent is is very important here.
• 25:40
  I I don't think you can assume things in the moment.
• 25:44
  Um, but I think taking a step back and recognizing that this is also like w we're all humans, but we're all raised differently in different environments.
• 25:55
  And environment is very, very influential.
• 25:58
  Sure.
• 25:59
  And you know, you have to take that into consideration when you're having these discussions and these interactions.
• 26:05
  Yeah.
• 26:05
  Um, I like to I like to lead with um, you know, positive intent.
• 26:13
  I like to assume that people um in are inherently good until they show me otherwise.
• 26:20
  Right.
• 26:21
  So this kind of delves into sexual harassment and and and actual safety of women.
• 26:27
  So you remember that that horrible ugly fat producer, sorry, Harvey Weinstein in uh Hollywood, but but it's uh not only Hollywood, it was New York and it was other cities around the world.
• 26:41
  Uh and then that kind of opened the whole can of can of worms because it was actually true, the Me Too movement, and it kind of shifted the other way that sometimes sexual harassment was actually not sexual harassment that the women actually asked for it, but but for the vast majority of times, no.
• 26:59
  Um so have you ever been sexually harassed?
• 27:03
  Oh yeah.
• 27:04
  Yeah, and and I don't know a single woman um that I have come across um that has not experienced it at some level.
• 27:17
  Um and it's terrible.
• 27:20
  It's terrible to think, but I mean, you know, we also we prepare for it as women.
• 27:28
  Um and in my particular circumstance, I was threatened with losing a deal unless um, you know, I I would um get together with this person, and I that was not Hollywood.
• 27:48
  That's awful.
• 27:49
  No, no, it was not Hollywood.
• 27:51
  And I, you know, I thought I'd prepped myself for that that kind of interaction, but I was honestly so surprised when it happened and so stunned.
• 28:01
  I like lost my footing for days, weeks trying to figure out what I had done to make this person think that that was possible.
• 28:01
  I like lost my footing for days, weeks trying to figure out what I had done to make this person think that that was possible.
• 28:15
  Yeah.
• 28:15
  Yeah.
• 28:15
  And it wasn't until I shared it with a woman colleague of mine that she helped me understand that it had nothing to do with me.
• 28:15
  And it wasn't until I shared it with a woman colleague of mine that she helped me understand that it had nothing to do with me.
• 28:27
  And um it was
• 28:27
  And it wasn't another two or three months until this person was actually caught.
• 28:34
  I I did not report anything.
• 28:36
  But this person was actually caught doing the same thing with someone that worked for him.
• 28:41
  Yeah.
• 28:44
  And yeah, so I mean, this is it, you know, I think um what I learned from the entire situation is this is a behavior.
• 28:53
  It's it's not a targeted thing in most cases.
• 28:58
  And so you have to kind of is it out there?
• 29:02
  Yes.
• 29:03
  Do you need to prepare for it?
• 29:04
  Yes.
• 29:06
  But you you need to remove your your personal self from that equation.
• 29:12
  It's not about you.
• 29:13
  That's a great perspective.
• 29:15
  That's that's an incredible perspective.
• 29:17
  And uh time and time again, you're right, it's proven that you take yourself out of that equation, but it still occurs with that same person with another one.
• 29:27
  Yeah, or or may or many other women, by the way.
• 29:30
  Yeah, as many as the case may be.
• 29:34
  Um so uh here's one the ambition myth.
• 29:37
  So uh you mentioned this before that there's no really uh a lack of ambition, but but some women are opting out to to progress if if you want to progress.
• 29:49
  So they're choosing not to take promotions, um, which is uh sometimes a rational reaction to lack of support or or rather than a lack of ambition, lack of support.
• 30:00
  But if you if you take the bull by the horns and do a backflip as we're gonna do in the next segment, that can be that can be turned into actual thriving.
• 30:09
  So it if you choose to, you know, choose to to act on that ambition.
• 30:14
  It's not as though it's not that they don't have ambition, women, generally speaking.
• 30:18
  It's just that the substructures and the structures, the navigation of the systems, uh wasn't or isn't designed for women.
• 30:28
  That's right.
• 30:28
  And and if you look historically, right?
• 30:31
  Um it's not just the support system in corporate America, it's a support system at home.
• 30:38
  Like I myself did not have the support system at home to um really you know, drop everything and go balls to the wall for my career.
• 30:50
  It was just never an option for me.
• 30:52
  Um, but you know, again, it's not a lack of ambition.
• 30:57
  I would say I'm just much more aware of the costs involved.
• 31:02
  So the bottom line is it's more difficult for a woman than a man.
• 31:06
  Yeah.
• 31:07
  In this situation, yeah.
• 31:09
  Most definitely.
• 31:10
  Yeah.
• 31:10
  Um, you know, I've uh the women that I've seen become, you know, chief executives, um have a pretty strong personal support system in addition to having good um professional support.
• 31:31
  Um and you know, those are the the trade-offs, right?
• 31:35
  Um I'm not willing to give up the close relationship I have with my son to rule the world.
• 31:46
  It's just not my priorities are different.
• 31:49
  You wouldn't be happy anyway.
• 31:50
  You it wouldn't make you happy.
• 31:52
  No, I don't think so.
• 31:54
  Probably not.
• 31:55
  No, I mean I'm I'm much more of a collaborator um than anything else.
• 31:59
  And and you know, that's that's another thing is I have um probably just in the most last 10 years, I've really come to understand my value, my brand, what's important to me, um, what's more importantly, what's not important to me um and and who um I want to have in my world.
• 32:26
  And all of that has made me extremely um content, I would say, but also very strategic in what I go after and when.
• 32:37
  Yep.
• 32:38
  I focus on my strengths.
• 32:40
  Um I acknowledge everybody has weaknesses, we all do, but I don't put time and effort into those.
• 32:45
  Right.
• 32:46
  Right.
• 32:46
  That's a great, yeah.
• 32:48
  I mean, that's for both men and women, as you say, it it it really really is good.
• 32:52
  So what about the high burnout rate and mental health issues?
• 32:55
  So what's written about women is that six in ten senior level women, and and and I would gather not even senior level women, uh report frequent burnout and facing higher levels of stress than their male peers.
• 33:10
  Now you switch that around and you have males relative to females.
• 33:16
  They're gonna say kind of similar things, by the way, not um comparing males and females, but just uh just in general.
• 33:24
  So burnout has become recognized uh system wide among all fields, all it doesn't matter what field it is, but but it appears that potentially more with women.
• 33:39
  Yeah, I think that's true.
• 33:40
  I mean, um, you know, there's the the saying of of wearing too many hats.
• 33:45
  Um I you know translate that for women as as having too many purses, right?
• 33:51
  And women um, you know, tend to, you know, women who have a purse for every occasion um and every situation, right?
• 34:01
  That that the closet gets pretty full, right?
• 34:04
  And expensive.
• 34:05
  Um expensive, exactly.
• 34:08
  Um and you know, this happened to me um when I was at Disney um, in fact, and I hit a wall where um I woke up one day and I was like, I don't know who I am anymore.
• 34:22
  I've lost myself in this job.
• 34:24
  And um my son had made a few comments about how stressed out I was and um how unhappy I looked, which was an interesting comment.
• 34:37
  Um and I finally got to a point where I just knew I'd crossed my own red line and that happened on a Friday, and I called the CEO on Sunday and said, I'm done.
• 34:51
  And he said, What do you mean?
• 34:52
  I said, I'm done.
• 34:53
  I can't do this anymore.
• 34:55
  Um I need to walk away.
• 34:57
  He's like, Well, where are you going?
• 34:58
  I said, nowhere.
• 34:59
  I don't have anywhere to go.
• 35:00
  Anywhere to go.
• 35:00
  It wasn't it was the most bizarre thing when you get to a certain place where you're you don't have another job to go to.
• 35:00
  It wasn't it was the most bizarre thing when you get to a certain place where you're you don't have another job to go to.
• 35:08
  I'm a single mom, right?
• 35:08
  I'm a single mom, right?
• 35:09
  Like, you know, you have to have a place to go to.
• 35:09
  Like you know, you have to have a place to go to.
• 35:13
  Um I didn't.
• 35:13
  Um I didn't, yeah, um, but I knew that I needed that time.
• 35:15
  Yeah.
• 35:15
  Um, but I knew that I needed that time.
• 35:17
  And you were done.
• 35:17
  And you were done off.
• 35:19
  You were done.
• 35:19
  You were done.
• 35:20
  I was done.
• 35:20
  I was done.
• 35:21
  I took that summer off.
• 35:21
  I took that summer off.
• 35:22
  I'll never forget it.
• 35:22
  I'll never forget it.
• 35:23
  My son was 13.
• 35:23
  My son was 13.
• 35:25
  Um, and we decided we were gonna have a summer of things.
• 35:25
  Um, and we decided we were gonna have a summer of things.
• 35:30
  And so the rules around that were that um we could decide to do whatever we wanted as long as it wasn't hugely dangerous.
• 35:39
  Yeah.
• 35:39
  Um that's good.
• 35:43
  Yeah, we took skateboarding lessons, we traveled all over the place.
• 35:48
  We went bungee jumping.
• 35:49
  I guess that was a big dangerous.
• 35:51
  Oh my goodness.
• 35:51
  Um you did.
• 35:52
  Yeah, we did all of the things.
• 35:54
  Yeah, that summer.
• 35:55
  Well, you're still here, so I'm still here.
• 35:58
  That's dangerous.
• 35:59
  That's potentially very dangerous.
• 36:03
  Um, what what about this?
• 36:09
  A likability tax.
• 36:11
  So there's a clearly a double standard, strength in female leaders.
• 36:15
  It it's sometimes labeled as they're labeled as difficult or aggressive.
• 36:19
  But we're gonna talk about this in the next segment.
• 36:21
  That you can you can do a countermomentum on that one and and not necessarily be like that.
• 36:28
  So is that unfair?
• 36:29
  I I I would say yes, that women who are assertive and decisive are are labeled a bitch, let's say, um, as opposed to a man, because it's more expected of a man.
• 36:41
  Whereas if a man were, oh, it's okay, and it'd be much more empathic and what have you.
• 36:46
  He would be labeled as uh you call it Olympic.
• 36:49
  That's what Dr.
• 36:50
  Laura would say.
• 36:52
  Yep.
• 36:53
  Yeah, no, it's true.
• 36:54
  Um, and that's probably one of the things that bothers me the most.
• 36:58
  Like the microaggressions, the pay gaps, all of that, yeah, they suck, but but this particular thing, um, being labeled as you say as a bitch or too aggressive is what drives me the most nuts.
• 37:14
  Um and you know it's I almost feel like, particularly in the last well, since the pandemic, it's gotten worse.
• 37:26
  Um also I think part of that, I'm just philosophizing here, but you know, when everybody started working from home and they're on Zoom, it's kind of and and with social media, the not being in the room made people a little bit more um daring, or um they could say things that they wouldn't say to a person's face, even though you're on a Zoom.
• 37:55
  Yep.
• 37:56
  Um crack messages and and the social media, it just feels like um people can be meaner.
• 38:07
  That's a great point.
• 38:08
  That's a great point.
• 38:09
  It speaks to our culture, doesn't it?
• 38:10
  In a way, it does.
• 38:12
  It really does.
• 38:13
  Yeah.
• 38:13
  And you know, I've uh you know what I've done with this situation is I've embraced it.
• 38:21
  So um the CTO of Major League Baseball nicknamed me the Velvet Hammer.
• 38:29
  I like that, but hold that hold that thought, hold that thought thought, Velvet Hammer.
• 38:33
  I like that.
• 38:34
  Oh my god, I didn't know that.
• 38:36
  Um, hold that point.
• 38:38
  We're gonna go to commercial break, and on the flip side on the back side, then uh Jackie the Velvet Hammer is gonna come out more with boy.
• 38:47
  But you know, I'm learning a lot from you, and I'm sure the the audience is okay.
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• 40:49
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• 40:51
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• 40:53
  Psychology.
• 40:54
  So we're gonna do like I was saying a backflip.
• 40:57
  So it's a metaphor from of the first segment to a discussion of the flourishing and thriving of women in the workplace.
• 41:05
  So I I like that the metaphor of taking the bull by the horns, because you've done that.
• 41:11
  You just in the in these segments, you're telling me that this is many times how you face challenges.
• 41:18
  And it's it's really relative to the intent behind or the perceived intent behind the challenge, but but transforming these challenges into kind of victories.
• 41:30
  So let's start with this: the ROI return on investment of people will write about soft power, but not really soft power.
• 41:41
  So the the conversation of of um changing or shifting from acting like a man, well, you're not a man.
• 41:50
  And um and how to use and utilize feminine specifically ascribed to females, a feminine trade.
• 41:57
  So empathy, collaboration, high uh emotion EQ, emotional quotient.
• 42:00
  Uh emo EQ emotional quotient.
• 42:02
  Now, that's not to say that that's uh exclusive in women, and I'm making a sharp divide.
• 42:02
  Now, that's not to say that that's uh exclusive in women and I'm making a sharp divide.
• 42:08
  No, men have that too.
• 42:08
  No, men have that too.
• 42:11
  Um but um but probably women uh a bit more.
• 42:11
  Um but um but probably women uh a bit more.
• 42:16
  So it it's more of a valuable currency in the C suite.
• 42:16
  So it it's more of a valuable currency in the C suite.
• 42:20
  Now I keep saying C suite.
• 42:20
  Now I keep saying C suite, it doesn't have to be the C suite, doesn't have to be.
• 42:21
  It doesn't have to be the C suite, doesn't have to be.
• 42:24
  It can be it could be in just life in general.
• 42:24
  It can be it could be in just life in general.
• 42:27
  It doesn't have to even be uh in
• 42:27
  It doesn't have to even be uh in the workplace.
• 42:30
  I mean, we're we're talking about the workplace, but it can be in in life in general.
• 42:36
  Uh like uh for example, in in in a marriage or in any kind of friendship or what have you.
• 42:42
  It can't be, but but again, we're gonna talk about the work uh situation here.
• 42:47
  So what say you oh yeah, I mean, I actually have used um my empathy and my ability to read people and really understand what is important to them in that moment.
• 43:05
  I've um, for lack of a better word, weaponized it.
• 43:10
  Um, I um study people and situations, and that helps me develop a strategy.
• 43:18
  Yes.
• 43:19
  Um I'm a firm believer that I don't need to act like a man.
• 43:24
  Um I differentiator as a woman and my tools that I have are just as valuable.
• 43:34
  Um I've actually you know uh kind of developed a brand for myself, as I mentioned, the Velvet Hammer, which is kind of a perfect blend of the male-female quotient, right?
• 43:49
  It's um, you know, I I can come down like a hammer, but it's going to be velvet, it's gonna have um a degree of um softness that goes with it, right?
• 44:03
  Um and so instead of um you know trying to imitate um traits of a man, I've developed traits in a woman that are valued equally, if not more.
• 44:20
  If not more by men.
• 44:22
  Yep.
• 44:22
  Yeah.
• 44:23
  So so these are effective leadership styles.
• 44:25
  And what they're they're paying, they're pairing, for example, your empathy.
• 44:29
  Um, they're pairing your your quote unquote female skills, um of having the studying people and being, if you will, softer, but not really softer, because actually more decisive in in the boardroom or in any any kind of room.
• 44:48
  So uh using these traits.
• 44:49
  So um, yeah, I like that.
• 44:52
  I like that.
• 44:53
  Now sponsorship versus mentorship.
• 44:57
  So mentorship um is I think very, very important, but sponsorship is is even more so strategies, for example, of uh of securing a sponsor, someone who has the power to champion your name uh in closed door meetings where you're you're not present and and being your true advocate, your true advocate.
• 45:19
  And you know, I'm talking about men being your advocate, sometimes it's women being your advocate in upper level positions and you're climbing up the ladder.
• 45:30
  It's both, right?
• 45:31
  Um, definitely is both.
• 45:33
  And um the strategy that has worked best for me in getting that sponsorship is actually not going directly at the person I want the sponsorship from.
• 45:45
  It's about building the trust um from their trusted sources and developing excellent, excellent point.
• 45:55
  Excellent.
• 45:56
  I like that.
• 45:57
  Yeah.
• 45:58
  And by you know, gaining the trust of their lieutenants, so to speak, um, your name is spoken in those rooms.
• 46:08
  And eventually what happens is you get an opportunity to be in that room.
• 46:13
  And you take that opportunity and you further invest in that in that relationship to form the sponsorship.
• 46:22
  I mean, the key of a sponsorship, um, as as I tell people is when you have a successful sponsor, that person will bring you into a company or an environment and create a position for you just because they know that no matter what you do, you will be successful at it.
• 46:43
  That's a true sponsor.
• 46:45
  Right.
• 46:45
  And I am very privileged to say that I have not applied for a job in the past 15 to 20 years.
• 46:57
  I have wrote written rather the resumes or the written the um job descriptions for the last eight jobs I've had.
• 47:08
  Well, that that speaks to you.
• 47:10
  That speaks to your skills and speaks to your style and and speaks to uh what women um should emulate if if they if they choose to do so.
• 47:20
  Uh and basically, but I think it also speaks to good sponsorship, right?
• 47:26
  So the sponsors that I've had, trust me to identify an area that I could transform.
• 47:37
  You know, you know, I'm gonna take I'm gonna take a uh uh a a little transition here.
• 47:42
  Um I don't mean to make light of it, but it it makes sense.
• 47:44
  I'd be I personally have been studying with our shows with the Drugs are um Rich Baum, who who is uh Trump's first drug server, and looking at looking at the parallels between the cartels, the cartels, very, very, very rich cartels and and American business and multinational corporations.
• 48:05
  Guess what now?
• 48:07
  This is the illicit world, okay?
• 48:10
  This is the dark world, but it's a very profitable world of drugs and terrorism, but it is something similar to that.
• 48:18
  So I hate to say that, but it's it's not dissimilar, except that you know, um I'm you're very licit, licit, not illicit, and doing very, very good things for people.
• 48:36
  But it is a club, right?
• 48:38
  And you're you have to trust these people.
• 48:41
  Um nobody's pointing guns at you, but um, you know, it is it is definitely a club, and uh and there are rules of engagement, right?
• 48:52
  Like there's loyalties involved.
• 48:55
  Oh my goodness.
• 48:56
  Um, you know, you have to have those people's back, um even when they're not in the room.
• 49:00
  have those people's back um i even when they're not in the room so there's very much and sponsorship is one of those things right like you you have different just as you have different seasons in your life um career wise you also have different sponsors that come into your life or that that you solicit um at various different points in your career right it's not you don't have one sponsor that takes you through your entire career um if if that's the case you're probably um not doing legal things um but um yeah good no so I think but sponsorship to your to your point is is very important um I I would say it's probably even more important to women um and mentorship I would say is uh a stepping stone to sponsorship uh can result in sponsorship um but mentorship for me for example is how I give back um I got I got these opportunities through sponsors and and now I'm mentoring to give back so so there's kind of like a a continuum if you will between mentorship and then frank frank sponsorship let's talk about money um so uh the negotiation master class which I I think you could probably give so instead of moving past what you had mentioned before about just feeling lucky or feeling fortunate or feeling happy that you're there but demanding equity uh in compensation and and what you bring or what you will bring to the bottom line to to money right to to uh success of the company so the studies out there show that uh women's earnings often stop growing in their late 30s while men's uh continue to grow into their 40s and many times uh way past that so my wife frequently says um know your worth not only for women but for our son for me know your worth and if your worth means reputation you know other things that that's good but if it means if it means money and transferring that and and it shows true the studies have shown that if women um start their negotiations in terms of frank um uh money and asking for you know reasonable not completely unreasonable that they're prone to get that and be even more successful what's what say you to that yeah so um you know know your worth is is a great thing I think that a lot of women struggl struggle with um differentiating between their value and the value of their work and that's an important distinction right so I coach a lot of women um through negotiations um for their career and one of the things I always say to them is separate your value as a person from the value of the work you do what is the value um that that this particular work is going to give to this company what are they willing to pay for that work you have to look at yourself more as um an institution um a company of itself than as you as a person you've got to separate that out um and you know the other thing is is valuing valuing yourself yes um comes in very many different forms right there's there's the value of of you of me Jackie in the workplace there's a value of me Jackie to my family there's a value of me Jackie to my friends don't mix those right and and too often I find that women devalue their their contribution in the workplace um and sometimes that's a compensation for what they're feeling in their personal life.
• 49:05
  So there's very much and sponsorship is one of those things, right?
• 49:08
  Like you you have different just as you have different seasons in your life, um, career-wise, you also have different sponsors that come into your life or that that you solicit um at various different points in your career, right?
• 49:22
  It's not you don't have one sponsor that takes you through your entire career.
• 49:26
  Um if if that's the case, you're probably um
• 53:12
  And so I really yeah I really coach women to um separate those things out and look at the work product itself um and then it makes it easier right so um if you're separating it out and you're saying okay if I was a company how much would I pay to have this work done that's a lot easier than saying what am I worth to this person so emotionally psychologically um so forth and so on.
• 53:45
  So so there's a lot of psychology in what you're saying.
• 53:48
  In fact these are kind of the underpinnings that I I take from what you're saying uh just in this whole discussion and that these are all these are all excellent points that you you bring up so um so thriving thriving is it's it's the way I look at it is not a solo sport it it's about creating an ecosystem where even one woman's success will fuel the next woman's success and some some articles will will describe this as a lioness effect uh effect so when for example women led teams and you mentioned you work for women you work for men so it's interesting that many of them outperform in terms of innovation and retention and and even um return on investment even in terms of of money and and profitability um that women led companies or women led or or women um you know emphasizing women in the workplace tend to do better than uh some women led companies are are very very successful and and maybe the men are very jealous but but you know what if the men were to um we don't have time in this segment but if they were to analyze certain things through a uh a woman's perspective then then put that into the man's brain they would learn a few things yes most definitely um and and vice versa right I I think um I think the perfect combination so the most successful leaders I have seen um care less about um gender and more about the value and the strengths that the individual brings to the table and in all cases yes um I have seen that the coming together of the genders so to speak leveraging the strengths of each is the most powerful combination um because nobody can be both right and nobody could possibly fully understand the experience of the other gender so instead of trying to understand it or fix it or or embody it.
• 56:00
  Is the most powerful combination.
• 56:03
  Um, because nobody can be both, right?
• 56:06
  No.
• 56:07
  And nobody could possibly fully understand the experience of the other gender.
• 56:13
  So instead of trying to understand it or fix it or or embody it.
• 56:18
  Thank you so much, everyone, for listening.
• 56:18
  Thank you so much everyone for listening I enthusiastically look forward to being with you weekly on the countermomentum of spin where we will endeavor to address and work towards solving the problems
• 56:20
  I enthusiastically look forward to being with you weekly on the Counter Momentum of Spin, where we will endeavor to address and work towards solving the problems of the world.
• 56:31
  Please note that this show and all the shows on America at Loud Talk Radio go to your favorite podcast networks within 24 hours.
• 56:39
  Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, TuneIn, Amazon, HiHeartRadio, among quite a few others.
• 56:46
  So have a great day and God bless you.