Latest / The Mookse and the Gripes Podcast / Episode 139: Finding the Ending: The Closing Movement of Books

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Episode 139: Finding the Ending: The Closing Movement of Books · The Mookse and the Gripes Podcast

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[music]
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SPEAKER_02: This is the Mookse and the Gripes podcast.
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SPEAKER_02: Hello, everybody.
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SPEAKER_02: This is Trevor and with me is Paul.
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SPEAKER_02: Paul, I'm sorry.
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SPEAKER_02: I have been very busy and one of the things that slipped was trying to come up with
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SPEAKER_02: an introduction for you.
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SPEAKER_02: Is it okay once in a while if I do it kind of the boring way?
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SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean you're boring.
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SPEAKER_01: I was going to say, honestly, it probably matches me better.
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SPEAKER_01: Boring is probably closer to what I am.
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SPEAKER_01: No, no problem.
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SPEAKER_01: I am just happy that we are back and listeners may be happy
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SPEAKER_01: to not have any extra wind noise or barking dogs or pickleball because we are back
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SPEAKER_01: in our Mookse and Gripes studio.
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SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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SPEAKER_02: Back at the luxurious room where we get together after all the goodies in the green room.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: We're back.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: How's the air for you?
1:07
SPEAKER_02: Is it the right temperature?
1:09
SPEAKER_01: It is.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: It is.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: And I asked them to remove all the red M&Ms from my bowl.
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SPEAKER_01: They're still doing that in the background, but hopefully nobody can hear that.
1:19
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's good to be back.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's been a busy time.
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SPEAKER_02: It's still busy in many ways for us.
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SPEAKER_02: I was just saying to Paul, my kids start school again on Tuesday.
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SPEAKER_02: So it's the last weekend before that.
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SPEAKER_02: And we are busy in other ways, too, that I'll maybe get into in a later episode.
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SPEAKER_02: Nothing dramatic or big.
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SPEAKER_02: It's not a podcast-centric thing.
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SPEAKER_02: It's not like I'm getting a new job or anything like that.
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SPEAKER_02: It's not that.
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SPEAKER_02: We'll get into it.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: A lot going on.
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SPEAKER_01: Life keeps getting in the way of our reading.
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SPEAKER_01: It's really irritating.
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SPEAKER_01: It is.
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SPEAKER_02: I have still been reading my life and fate doses every day.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: But other things have kind of slipped away the last couple of weeks since we last recorded.
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SPEAKER_02: So I asked Paul if we could maybe skip the what are you reading other
2:08
SPEAKER_02: than saying something like that,
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SPEAKER_02: unless there's something very specific or that you're like,
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SPEAKER_02: oh, let's I do want to mention this.
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SPEAKER_01: No, I'll just quickly mention that I am chipping away at a couple
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SPEAKER_01: of our upcoming author episodes.
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SPEAKER_01: I've been reading a couple of Elizabeth Taylors, you know, just gradually and loving those.
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SPEAKER_01: And then for our book club at the bookstore,
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SPEAKER_01: I kind of did double duty and I picked up a Naguib Mahfuz that I've been wanting
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SPEAKER_01: to reread.
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SPEAKER_01: And we're way ahead of that one because I can't remember if that author episode
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SPEAKER_01: a ways out, but we're reading My Dark Alley for our book club.
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SPEAKER_01: So I'm...
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SPEAKER_01: Really loving getting back into his world and looking forward to digging in further.
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SPEAKER_01: So I'll leave it at that.
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SPEAKER_01: But yeah, lots of good stuff happening.
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SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
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SPEAKER_02: Well, then we can probably jump right into our big finale.
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SPEAKER_02: This is our closings episode.
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SPEAKER_02: We did a bit of a series.
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SPEAKER_02: You probably know, listeners, if you've been following along.
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SPEAKER_02: We did an episode on opening movements.
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SPEAKER_02: We did an episode on middles.
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SPEAKER_02: And now it's time for closings.
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SPEAKER_02: But we've been trying to think of these in a different way,
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SPEAKER_02: conceptualize them,
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SPEAKER_02: not just as like the first lines or the first paragraphs, but like the opening.
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SPEAKER_02: What does an opening do?
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SPEAKER_02: How are the various ways that an opening can accomplish what openings are there for?
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SPEAKER_02: And not just in a plot way, but even characters and just all types of books and stories.
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SPEAKER_02: The Middles was a surprisingly rich area for us, that tricky middle area.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I'd recommend people go back and listen to those if you haven't yet.
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SPEAKER_02: But this one on closings,
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SPEAKER_02: once again,
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SPEAKER_02: we aren't just talking about endings as the final sentences or even the last pages.
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SPEAKER_02: We've done that episode,
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SPEAKER_02: but we're talking about the portion of the book when it begins moving
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SPEAKER_02: towards its end.
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SPEAKER_02: And so we thought,
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SPEAKER_02: well, let's call this closings or the closing movement or something like that.
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SPEAKER_02: Who knows what it'll end up being titled.
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SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
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SPEAKER_02: I think it's kind of a fun thing to talk about these various pieces of a book
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SPEAKER_02: and explore what they're doing.
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SPEAKER_02: You know, sometimes this closing can start, say, 30 pages from the end.
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SPEAKER_02: Other times, 150 pages from the end.
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SPEAKER_02: You know, that...
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SPEAKER_02: When you start to feel it's entering its final movement.
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SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: So what are some things that you think of?
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SPEAKER_02: And I thought rather than for me,
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know how Paul prepared,
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SPEAKER_02: but I thought I would just talk about various aspects of this
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SPEAKER_02: and bring up particular books rather than,
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SPEAKER_02: and here are my favorite endings of all time.
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SPEAKER_01: No, I was kind of doing the same thing because it's easy to come up
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SPEAKER_01: with specific examples when you're talking opening lines or closing lines,
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SPEAKER_01: but I'll get into it in a minute, but one thing I noticed about this is how...
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know that... Yeah, I'll pause on that and start in a different place.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll come back to that, though.
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SPEAKER_01: But I think it's interesting.
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SPEAKER_01: I know we're not approaching this as writers.
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SPEAKER_01: We're approaching this as readers.
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SPEAKER_01: But I think each of these sections could have different kind of pressures
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SPEAKER_01: and expectations for both the writer and the reader.
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SPEAKER_01: And...
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SPEAKER_01: I think with the closing acts of books,
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SPEAKER_01: it's really interesting because to some extent,
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SPEAKER_01: by the time you get to this section,
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SPEAKER_01: the reader has stuck with you through everything else,
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SPEAKER_01: or as a reader, you've stuck with the author through everything else.
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SPEAKER_01: So for the most part,
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SPEAKER_01: I would say,
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SPEAKER_01: If you get to this section, you've pretty much bought in to some degree to the book.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not like you have to be won over,
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SPEAKER_01: but I do think there's also that increasing pressure potentially for both
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SPEAKER_01: the writer, but especially for the reader in this case of like, All right.
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SPEAKER_01: I can tell that there's like not much left of this book.
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SPEAKER_01: Like you can kind of feel like what's going to happen next.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I think the reader expectations are often kind of coming to a head
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SPEAKER_01: as you get near the end.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's where everything can kind of pay off or,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: in some cases,
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SPEAKER_01: I guess,
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SPEAKER_01: where you can kind of fall flat on your face as a book or as an author, too.
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SPEAKER_01: But I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: I think.
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SPEAKER_01: It's just interesting because the hypothesis I had going into this
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SPEAKER_01: and what I started thinking I was going to say is that as important as
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SPEAKER_01: the first impression can be or the middle,
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SPEAKER_01: this last section is kind of the last thing that the reader gets
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SPEAKER_01: when they're involved with the book.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I was thinking the end can permanently color our views and memories of
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SPEAKER_01: the entire reading experience.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I'm willing to die on that hill because the more I started thinking
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SPEAKER_01: about this with the context of the overall three acts of the book,
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SPEAKER_01: I started to feel like maybe,
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SPEAKER_01: at least for me as a reader,
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I actually do put much pressure on any one section.
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SPEAKER_01: For me, it ends up being a much more comprehensive experience.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think why I came into that issue was as I was trying to think of some
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SPEAKER_01: of my favorite closing acts,
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SPEAKER_01: I couldn't really, I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: I came up with some,
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SPEAKER_01: but it was like,
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SPEAKER_01: I don't think I think about books that way as much as I thought I would.
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SPEAKER_01: And so, I don't know,
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SPEAKER_01: that's kind of my general thoughts is the more I,
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SPEAKER_01: even though we divided these into sections and I do think they do a lot
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SPEAKER_01: of different things,
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SPEAKER_01: by the time we finished this project,
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SPEAKER_01: thinking about it,
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SPEAKER_01: I was like,
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I necessarily break them up in my head as a reader,
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SPEAKER_01: at least in retrospect, as much as I thought I might.
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SPEAKER_02: You want to go back to just talking about the book.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Let's go back to our roots.
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SPEAKER_01: Is this a good book?
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SPEAKER_01: No, it's just, I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: It's just the more I started to try to think of like picking out specific,
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SPEAKER_01: like what are some great closing parts of books?
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SPEAKER_01: Like I did come up with some,
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SPEAKER_01: but I also started to realize like,
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SPEAKER_01: I don't think as I finish a book,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm like, man, that last third really blew me away.
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SPEAKER_01: I think often it does end up kind of,
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SPEAKER_01: at least over time,
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SPEAKER_01: settling into more of an overall comprehensive view or memories of it,
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SPEAKER_01: if that makes sense.
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SPEAKER_02: I think it makes a lot of sense.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the reasons it can do that is if it is kind of successful.
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SPEAKER_02: If the book has stuck its landing, it's because the pieces have worked together in some way.
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SPEAKER_02: The promises made at the beginning,
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SPEAKER_02: the development of various themes and characters throughout and through
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SPEAKER_02: the middle have...
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SPEAKER_02: Landed in a satisfying way and closed up in a satisfying way that you can look back
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SPEAKER_02: and say, I really liked that book.
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SPEAKER_02: But I can definitely think of books.
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SPEAKER_02: I guess maybe another thing is with books,
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SPEAKER_02: it's easy for me to think of bad endings and things that didn't work for me
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SPEAKER_02: that kind of ruined my experience with the book almost more than I can think of
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SPEAKER_02: an ending that just made the book great.
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SPEAKER_02: Like the book was pretty good and it's opening in middle,
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SPEAKER_02: but the ending is why I love that book.
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SPEAKER_02: You know, it tends to be something that just kind of works for me.
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SPEAKER_02: But let's let's try to isolate and then get into some more of these successes or non successes.
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SPEAKER_02: Once we've maybe figured out what we mean by closing,
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SPEAKER_02: you know, how do you how does a book signal that it is closing?
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SPEAKER_02: What are some ways?
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SPEAKER_02: They do it differently.
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SPEAKER_02: And I guess to explain what I mean, there are books that speed up.
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SPEAKER_02: A plot-heavy book, the chapters shorten.
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SPEAKER_02: People are getting to their destinations.
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SPEAKER_02: People are coming back together.
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SPEAKER_02: But that doesn't have to be the only way.
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SPEAKER_02: There are books that might even become more reflective as it's coming to a close.
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SPEAKER_02: I think of something like No Country for Old Men, where...
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SPEAKER_02: And you get a chance to almost have an ending, a big climax.
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SPEAKER_02: And that's a different thing.
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SPEAKER_02: A climax is different from the closing.
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SPEAKER_02: It's part of it, potentially, but it is not the whole thing.
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SPEAKER_02: How do you handle all of that?
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SPEAKER_02: And so there are various ways,
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SPEAKER_02: I think, that a book can signal to you, okay, we're moving into the end.
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SPEAKER_02: And...
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SPEAKER_02: I think that that's kind of a fun thing to look at that process.
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SPEAKER_02: What is going on?
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SPEAKER_02: What as a reader am I now expecting,
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SPEAKER_02: even if subconsciously,
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SPEAKER_02: expecting as things in the book that have been open and developing and expanding.
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SPEAKER_02: Now start to become a little bit more fixed and final.
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SPEAKER_02: Anyway, what are some things that you think of if you think of signals that
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SPEAKER_02: a book is becoming closed?
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SPEAKER_02: And if you have any examples, that's great.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, one of the things that I was kind of wrestling
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SPEAKER_01: with around this is like what you just described,
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SPEAKER_01: like what signifies the ending of a book,
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SPEAKER_01: but also like what do we actually want from an ending?
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SPEAKER_01: So maybe I can weave that in a little bit too, but I do think...
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SPEAKER_01: Like you said,
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SPEAKER_01: in some cases you can feel things start to speed up and like maybe the stakes start
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SPEAKER_01: to rise in some examples.
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SPEAKER_01: Or I think often in a lot of the books that we read,
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SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things that I also was thinking
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SPEAKER_01: about is maybe it doesn't even really shift very much sometimes in some of
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SPEAKER_01: the more meditative, introspective books.
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SPEAKER_01: I would argue that maybe there isn't a clear delineation in some
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SPEAKER_01: of my favorite books and favorite endings are maybe just almost a continuation
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SPEAKER_01: of what's been happening before that.
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SPEAKER_01: So I think that's something else.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: It's okay if you
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SPEAKER_02: don't.
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SPEAKER_02: I do get what you're saying.
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SPEAKER_02: The reason that I'm curious if you have an example is because I'd actually like
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SPEAKER_02: to dig in and see if that's true.
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SPEAKER_02: Would the author agree with you with that?
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SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, I just wrote until it was over, and the middle could have been the ending.
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SPEAKER_02: I wonder if they would say no.
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SPEAKER_02: I entered the closing around this point and you'll see my theme started
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SPEAKER_02: to become more conclusory or if not more conclusory,
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SPEAKER_02: that's where the theme started to complicate and show that there is no conclusion.
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SPEAKER_02: I would be curious.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a good question.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: Let me think about examples of that.
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SPEAKER_01: But in the meantime,
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SPEAKER_01: I will think of like A book that I read for
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SPEAKER_01: the first time recently was Virginia Woolf's The Waves.
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SPEAKER_01: And that book does something interesting as it,
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SPEAKER_01: what I would consider to be the closing act because throughout the majority of
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SPEAKER_01: the body of the work,
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SPEAKER_01: the intro and the body,
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SPEAKER_01: it is introducing and then cycling through each of the main characters.
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SPEAKER_01: And you get within each chapter, these kind of whirlwind
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SPEAKER_01: Peaks into what they're thinking and what they're experiencing.
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SPEAKER_01: And that takes place for probably 70-80% of the book.
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SPEAKER_01: And then in the last section,
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SPEAKER_01: this isn't a spoiler or anything,
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SPEAKER_01: but then it specifically shifts over to the perspective of one character who is
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SPEAKER_01: then kind of doing a summary or at least...
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SPEAKER_01: An overview of all the different things that we've been reading about and
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SPEAKER_01: the experiences we've been reading about from his perspective to kind
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SPEAKER_01: of close things out.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that is the one that kind of is top of mind for me right now,
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SPEAKER_01: just because I just read it as that one or you think of something like.
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SPEAKER_01: Mrs. Dalloway, if we're still sticking with Virginia Woolf or, you know, to the Lighthouse.
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SPEAKER_01: I think she's really good at kind of a blend of what we just described
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SPEAKER_01: because I think she doesn't obviously jump the shark or do any kind of like big,
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SPEAKER_01: for the most part, she doesn't do anything at the end that's like...
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SPEAKER_01: A huge departure from what's been going on the rest of the book but I think she's
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SPEAKER_01: a good example of a way of quietly starting
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SPEAKER_01: to do what you just described taking these disparate threads
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SPEAKER_01: and weaving them together into a way that feels a little bit more satisfying by
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SPEAKER_01: the time you're done.
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SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that one is one I'm thinking of right now.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I think,
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SPEAKER_01: like you said,
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SPEAKER_01: one of the things I was thinking about, though,
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SPEAKER_01: is for better or worse,
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SPEAKER_01: I think some of the clunker endings are the ones that kept popping up where a book
14:44
SPEAKER_01: that you love too.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the other risk of this is I've said over and
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SPEAKER_01: over again how I think horror books in particular rarely,
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SPEAKER_01: rarely, rarely stick the landing and often...
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SPEAKER_01: Take a book that I loved for 80 or 90% of my reading experience and leave me with
15:01
SPEAKER_01: a little bit of either sadness, regret or sour taste in my mouth.
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SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, yeah, I don't know.
15:09
SPEAKER_02: Well, I definitely want to get into that for sure,
15:12
SPEAKER_02: because I think that it's a good way to talk about some of the whys.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: And maybe even,
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SPEAKER_02: this is me thinking on the spot here,
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SPEAKER_02: your impression of something like Virginia Woolf,
15:26
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to bring in Faulkner,
15:29
SPEAKER_02: like Absalom,
15:29
SPEAKER_02: Absalom,
15:31
SPEAKER_02: which could very easily be one of those that you're reading it and you're like,
15:33
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
15:34
SPEAKER_02: you read the story in the first 50 pages and you just kind of keep getting repeats
15:38
SPEAKER_02: of it and different bits of information.
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SPEAKER_02: So does it matter?
15:43
SPEAKER_02: Did this really end or is this just a, you got to end it somewhere, might as well be this page.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: I could go on.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: And yet it is a very satisfying ending because I do think that We're getting more
16:01
SPEAKER_02: and more revelations and more and more complications that show
16:05
SPEAKER_02: that those revelations aren't necessarily reliable.
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SPEAKER_02: And so you get this sense as the thing starts to close
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SPEAKER_02: that this greater factual coherence that you're getting,
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SPEAKER_02: you think you're learning more information.
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SPEAKER_02: Doesn't actually lead you to greater certainty.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: Doesn't actually lead you to greater clarity even.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's part of the point of the book and a beautiful way to end it
16:39
SPEAKER_02: with this idea that The mystery that we've been exploring is actually bigger
16:45
SPEAKER_02: than you thought.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: The trek that we have been on to understand has led us to a more troubling understanding.
16:57
SPEAKER_02: And that's very satisfying because it opens up the world in a way that I do think
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SPEAKER_02: when we start looking at Books that maybe aren't sticking the landing fail to do.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think a good example would be like horror novels.
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SPEAKER_02: We've talked about this with Stephen King in the past that is very good
17:18
SPEAKER_02: at writing beginnings and very good at writing middles.
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SPEAKER_02: But then you get to the ending, not always, you know, some of his endings are quite good.
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SPEAKER_02: But many of them, many of them, I'm like, what?
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SPEAKER_02: You just had to end, didn't you?
17:36
SPEAKER_02: You couldn't figure out how to wrap this up.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: And so instead of an ending that opens up or makes me start thinking,
17:45
SPEAKER_02: you almost feel like you get an ending that's just imposed on the work.
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SPEAKER_02: Like, I had to finish this.
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SPEAKER_02: It resolves rather than continues to develop anything.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: And that can make it so that the novel feels smaller than you had been imagining
18:05
SPEAKER_02: or living within it.
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SPEAKER_02: You know, that this thing is over.
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SPEAKER_02: And...
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SPEAKER_02: I just think that there's this way of getting the sense that the author is like,
18:21
SPEAKER_02: I just need to resolve these subplots.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: And you almost get the sense that for sometimes Stephen King,
18:26
SPEAKER_02: it's the explanation closing or even a boss battle.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: As if that's really satisfying,
18:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
18:35
SPEAKER_02: some complex conflict that involves childhood and guilt
18:39
SPEAKER_02: and trauma can all be wrapped up into this battle at the end with stupid dialogue
18:47
SPEAKER_02: and whatnot.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: And then you get the explanation that oftentimes then they make it so that
18:54
SPEAKER_02: the mystery that I was imagining,
18:56
SPEAKER_02: because it was still mysterious,
18:58
SPEAKER_02: It's actually much more interesting before it was explained.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: And that I see happening a lot in the horror novels that come to mind
19:08
SPEAKER_02: as I'm thinking of bad endings.
19:10
SPEAKER_02: It's like, man, you had me because I didn't know.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: I was part of the point of these is that I didn't know.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: And so when you described the monster or when you gave me a shape to all of this,
19:22
SPEAKER_02: It was disappointing because my and I even though what I'm trying to imagine
19:27
SPEAKER_02: or what I imagined,
19:28
SPEAKER_02: I could never put words to I probably couldn't even tell you what it looked like.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: That's what made it so scary is that I didn't know.
19:36
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't figure it out.
19:37
SPEAKER_02: It was just this endless possibility of horror.
19:41
SPEAKER_02: And so when you do put shape around it, it can be very tricky.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: It's pretty awesome when that stuff does work out in horror novels and such.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: You put it very well.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: That is honestly one of my biggest struggles.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think it ties somewhat into some of these other books that we're talking
20:01
SPEAKER_01: about,
20:01
SPEAKER_01: because it's one of the reasons I thought we could talk a little bit about the need
20:05
SPEAKER_01: for resolution.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: And I think that It varies by genre, by author, by book.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: But generally speaking,
20:13
SPEAKER_01: I am not somebody who seeks out resolution,
20:16
SPEAKER_01: needs resolution, needs everything tied up with the bow.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: And there are times like you just described where in fact,
20:21
SPEAKER_01: I think it ends up doing a disservice to all the hard work that's been done in
20:25
SPEAKER_01: the book before.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: And so I am a big fan of Open-ended endings for the most part
20:32
SPEAKER_01: or like what you just described with like some of Faulkner's works
20:36
SPEAKER_01: where yes we do get an ending but and there is some degree of resolution or closure
20:41
SPEAKER_01: but at the same time it leaves you with this feeling
20:43
SPEAKER_01: that things are only more complicated and it kind
20:45
SPEAKER_01: of leaves you wrestling I mean that's probably where I'm.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: Drawn most often but I was thinking about tying things up with a neat nice bow
20:55
SPEAKER_01: and how I hate that but then I as always started
20:59
SPEAKER_01: to think well no that's not always true because something like
21:01
SPEAKER_01: a Jane Austen novel is so satisfying the way that it happens and yes you know for
21:09
SPEAKER_01: the vast majority of hers that it's headed in probably a certain direction or
21:12
SPEAKER_01: at least you know what the eventual outcome is likely to be but she's so masterful
21:17
SPEAKER_01: at Making it happen in a way that feels satisfying and real.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: And even though it is tying everything up with a bow and she will usually summarize
21:26
SPEAKER_01: and send people off on their merry ways.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: I feel like she's really good at doing it in a way that doesn't feel cheap.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's tricky with doing something like what she does.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously,
21:36
SPEAKER_01: there's a reason that her stuff is stuck around,
21:38
SPEAKER_01: even though to some degree we know what's going to happen.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: The fact that she has made us care about these humans and made their relationships
21:45
SPEAKER_01: so realistic by doing all the hard work in the beginning,
21:47
SPEAKER_01: in the middle of the book,
21:49
SPEAKER_01: where it doesn't feel like the end is just like out of nowhere.
21:53
SPEAKER_02: We're like, wait, I do not buy that, you know, kind of thing.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: That's a really good point because,
21:59
SPEAKER_02: yeah, I think that there can be these tidy endings and we can look down on them.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: But you're 100% right that sometimes they work because they are the ending
22:11
SPEAKER_02: that we want and we wanted to get there and we were happy with the way we got there.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: We were happy with that resolution.
22:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
22:20
SPEAKER_02: And maybe kind of comparing like a Jane Austen ending with the marriages and kind of everyone...
22:26
SPEAKER_02: Everyone's pretty happy.
22:27
SPEAKER_02: She does often throw in some fun little things there about,
22:30
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:30
SPEAKER_02: this isn't just the ending for a lot of these,
22:33
SPEAKER_02: but there is this sense in like George Eliot's books with like,
22:38
SPEAKER_02: let's throw Middlemarch or Daniel Duranda or these,
22:40
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:41
SPEAKER_02: some of these books that you've been watching these characters who have a lot
22:45
SPEAKER_02: of possibilities in front of them.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: And that starts to,
22:50
SPEAKER_02: as the finale kind of comes around or the closing,
22:53
SPEAKER_02: dang it,
22:54
SPEAKER_02: wrong word,
22:55
SPEAKER_02: as it starts to close,
22:57
SPEAKER_02: you get the sense that their options are being taken away from them,
23:01
SPEAKER_02: that the choices they have made are now,
23:03
SPEAKER_02: we're starting to live in their consequences.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: And That can be very satisfying in a Jane Austen book and also in like Middlemarch.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: But the thing that I think both of them do and Elliot maybe more so is
23:18
SPEAKER_02: that you get this sense of here are the consequences of what we've explored so far,
23:22
SPEAKER_02: several of them.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: And then she starts to widen them out again as people go on their way.
23:27
SPEAKER_02: Now they're going to have, you know, that those consequences have led to another choice.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: And we're left to imagine where that might lead.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: And with Jane Austen, it can be very pleasant to imagine, oh, they lived happily ever after.
23:43
SPEAKER_02: Or Lydia, what is she going to be doing in five years?
23:50
SPEAKER_02: You can still see those as the potential start of a whole new novel
23:55
SPEAKER_02: because it does open up again,
23:57
SPEAKER_02: even though you've just read about a resolution, a wrapping up.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: The lives feel alive.
24:05
SPEAKER_02: And so we know that in a way it does suggest that broadening.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: And they're both really good at their themes as well.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: And so you get these satisfying,
24:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
24:22
SPEAKER_02: And I think illuminating for us as humans,
24:26
SPEAKER_02: thematic flourishes that go along
24:29
SPEAKER_02: with these consequences these characters are now living with.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I agree.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: I think too,
24:37
SPEAKER_01: like thinking about why something like some of Stephen King's endings don't work,
24:41
SPEAKER_01: whereas something like a Jane Austen ending does,
24:44
SPEAKER_01: even though we may have known what was going to happen the whole time.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of it to me comes down to Throughout all these different parts of
24:51
SPEAKER_01: the book, staying true to the book, staying true to the characters.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: And even if there's big changes that are happening in the plot or in the characters,
25:00
SPEAKER_01: character development,
25:01
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of what kind of culminates in the ending and makes it either pay off
25:07
SPEAKER_01: or not for me is just the fact that it feels believable or I have logically followed
25:15
SPEAKER_01: the author from the beginning to the end.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: And I don't feel like they're,
25:20
SPEAKER_01: you know, Jumping the shark or doing something weird or like veering off.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
25:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there are examples of books that do that very successfully where all of
25:30
SPEAKER_01: a sudden it's like goes off into left field and it works.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: But like for the most part,
25:34
SPEAKER_01: I think often the ones that stick in my mind that,
25:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:38
SPEAKER_01: something like Stoner,
25:40
SPEAKER_01: where even though it does culminate in a very specific thing that we've kind
25:44
SPEAKER_01: of seen happening along the way,
25:46
SPEAKER_01: like The tone and the feel of it still continues and I would argue in
25:51
SPEAKER_01: a quiet way does provide a bit of a finale to everything that we've been reading
25:55
SPEAKER_01: about up until the end of that book.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: It does it very differently than something else where it's a big action book
26:01
SPEAKER_01: or something like that.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: But I do think it comes to a conclusion that feels kind of inevitable
26:07
SPEAKER_01: to some degree, but in a very, I don't know, in a way that works really well.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: If that makes sense,
26:15
SPEAKER_01: like even in a quiet book,
26:16
SPEAKER_01: I think it's just sticking with what has been successful,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: even if you do create some kind of closure or something at the end.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:27
SPEAKER_02: I think if you will allow,
26:30
SPEAKER_02: this might be a good moment because it does follow up with what you're saying,
26:33
SPEAKER_02: but it might take me a second to get there with Brandon Sanderson.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: It's really one of the reasons I started to think about this is
26:42
SPEAKER_02: that he writes fantasy and science fiction kind of books
26:47
SPEAKER_02: and they're very plot heavy.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: And again,
26:51
SPEAKER_02: often those types of books,
26:53
SPEAKER_02: the endings can feel like I just had to get this to the end.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: We had a big fight and everything's over now and people are now happily ever after.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: I did the Jane Austen thing.
27:03
SPEAKER_02: Why doesn't it satisfy you here?
27:06
SPEAKER_02: And I think you're right with the, they feel alive.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: Even when you get to that inevitable ending, it fits with all the characters.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: And maybe some of it's that the inevitability was good and was there,
27:21
SPEAKER_02: but the surprises along the way, how do we get, you know, it's coming, right?
27:25
SPEAKER_02: You know that Darcy and Elizabeth are going to get together.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: You assume anyway.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: So the fun is how is that going to happen?
27:33
SPEAKER_02: And then finally the payoff of seeing it happen and believing that it could have happened.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: That's part of the wrap up of that book.
27:40
SPEAKER_02: You've got all the middle of the conflict and the pride and the prejudice and
27:47
SPEAKER_02: the haughtiness going on.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: And then you finally get the closing beginning when they're both like, oh,
27:58
SPEAKER_02: Or I guess when Elizabeth is like,
28:00
SPEAKER_02: I didn't understand everything and I've missed my chance.
28:05
SPEAKER_02: And we're sitting there thinking, okay,
28:08
SPEAKER_02: somehow between now,
28:10
SPEAKER_02: we know we're starting the end and the ending when they're happily ever after.
28:16
SPEAKER_02: That's going to be satisfying to see how those lines are drawn.
28:20
SPEAKER_02: And it fits.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: It works.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: It's inevitable, but getting there still feels right.
28:26
SPEAKER_02: It still feels like it's the right conclusion.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: Sanderson talks sometimes about this and says he likes his endings
28:33
SPEAKER_02: to be very surprising, but still...
28:37
SPEAKER_02: Like you saw it coming or you could have seen it coming.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: And the reason I thought about this at all was that he made a good point once
28:45
SPEAKER_02: where he says,
28:45
SPEAKER_02: you can have people who write really good beginnings or some people that's
28:49
SPEAKER_02: the easy part.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: And others, maybe the ending is, but a lot of people, the ends are hard.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: It is hard because you have made promises and they've been exciting
29:03
SPEAKER_02: and you yourself are excited about them for the same reason your reader is.
29:07
SPEAKER_02: We don't know where it's going and that's a thrilling situation to be in.
29:11
SPEAKER_02: Can you be an author who can get us to where it's going in a way
29:15
SPEAKER_02: that doesn't feel cheap or like a cop-out or like, you know what?
29:20
SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoyed the ride.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: It's now over.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: You know, an author who, you know, it's almost closing time.
29:28
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, oh, I didn't realize it.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: We better start shutting things down,
29:32
SPEAKER_02: you know, and everyone's before people are really ready for it.
29:36
SPEAKER_02: And so getting that ending sequence,
29:39
SPEAKER_02: you know, again, not just the final pages where Elizabeth and Darcy get married.
29:45
SPEAKER_02: Because that's the last thing.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: We're talking about getting to that ending as the whole ending, the whole closing act.
29:55
SPEAKER_02: And that's where someone like Jane Austen can do that and end it well.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: Because it is a whole sequence of dominoes that she's set up and that she's now able
30:06
SPEAKER_02: to start tumbling as she closes her book in ways that we're excited to see.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: We're excited to see all of that start to happen in each of her books.
30:17
SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's where it pays to kind of, again,
30:22
SPEAKER_02: figure out,
30:22
SPEAKER_02: okay, the distinction isn't how does it end, but how does it I don't know.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: I know I'm saying the same word.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: There's a hundred pages left,
30:49
SPEAKER_01: but I feel like something is changing here and I'm starting to pick up
30:53
SPEAKER_01: on whatever it is,
30:55
SPEAKER_01: the pacing changing or some plot thing that shifted things forward.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: But I'd be curious to hear your thoughts too,
31:01
SPEAKER_01: because one of the things I think I like the most about rereading
31:06
SPEAKER_01: You have that extra context and you know where it's headed.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes when you're rereading it,
31:11
SPEAKER_01: it's fun to kind of maybe pick up on things that you didn't notice
31:16
SPEAKER_01: the first time around.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: And something like that, where it's like, Okay.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: Like something shifted in this conversation between Darcy and Elizabeth
31:26
SPEAKER_01: that I didn't pick up on the first time,
31:27
SPEAKER_01: but I think this might be the beginning of where,
31:31
SPEAKER_01: you know, things go or something like that.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: I think it's interesting just to think of it that way,
31:35
SPEAKER_01: because when you're reading for a first time,
31:38
SPEAKER_01: sometimes you're so busy racing through and trying to go from point A to point B
31:42
SPEAKER_01: that you don't pick up on some of the hard work that's being put in to kind
31:47
SPEAKER_01: of Do these little subtle things that you might notice on the second
31:52
SPEAKER_01: or third reread.
31:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I agree with you.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: It's fun.
31:57
SPEAKER_02: It's fun to start seeing these things in motion because,
32:00
SPEAKER_02: again, you're still part of the process.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: Good books make it so that you want to go back to that because it was satisfying.
32:09
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't just the final page.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: It was all the stuff that's happening and how it's happening, the responses.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: You pick up on when the book stops expanding and more starts contracting
32:26
SPEAKER_02: to these situations and things start converging and you get excited again
32:30
SPEAKER_02: because you're like, oh, I know this.
32:32
SPEAKER_02: I know, again, I know this is leading to their wedding.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: I know that Darcy and Elizabeth are going to get married.
32:38
SPEAKER_02: But I can't remember all the little things that happened to get us there.
32:41
SPEAKER_02: I remember some of them, but not all of them.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: And so it's fun to go through all of that again.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: And it's almost like a roller coaster ride.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: You've got a long, thrilling way to get there.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: And so again, you know, and it can take 30 pages or 100 pages, just kind of depending.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: Back on Sanderson,
33:04
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you've ever heard the term,
33:05
SPEAKER_02: maybe I've even brought it up on the podcast, but he's famous for...
33:08
SPEAKER_02: I didn't coin that term.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: It's a good term, but also a little bit hokey.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: But at any rate,
33:19
SPEAKER_02: it's because in many of his books,
33:21
SPEAKER_02: you've been getting these little clues that seem like incidental little bits
33:26
SPEAKER_02: and pieces, and they really do start coming together in satisfying ways.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: And one after another,
33:33
SPEAKER_02: like he is a really good,
33:34
SPEAKER_02: for the most part,
33:36
SPEAKER_02: ender of books, you know, these closing acts can be very thrilling.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: They're often, you know, again, thinking of some of his books being 12, 1300 pages of
33:46
SPEAKER_02: These endings are several hundred pages long.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: And yes,
33:51
SPEAKER_02: he is one that often the chapters speed up
33:54
SPEAKER_02: and you get various characters coming together.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: But he does try to make it a point to do that in a way that's satisfying.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: So people who read them are like, I read the last 200 pages all in one go.
34:10
SPEAKER_02: Because I was in the Sanderlands.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: There was no stopping.
34:14
SPEAKER_02: And there was so much happening around me that I couldn't quite get it all.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: But as I kind of think about that, you can feel like you're in the ending for those pages.
34:25
SPEAKER_02: Again, that's why you may be 200,
34:27
SPEAKER_02: 300 pages from the actual final page and already be like,
34:32
SPEAKER_02: oh, this is where it's all coming to.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: And he has another phrase that I think really pays off for him.
34:40
SPEAKER_02: One of his characters in Mistborn is famous for saying, there's always another secret.
34:47
SPEAKER_02: You've got this sense that every question that you finally get an answer
34:52
SPEAKER_02: to leads you to more questions.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: And the thing I like about his stuff and this idea in general is you realize in
35:01
SPEAKER_02: that moment that Yeah.
35:05
SPEAKER_02: And these have been there all along.
35:07
SPEAKER_02: I just couldn't see them.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: That's super satisfying because it's a closing that makes you reevaluate
35:12
SPEAKER_02: the whole book and see it from a new light.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: Like all of these new to me mysteries have been there the whole time.
35:19
SPEAKER_02: I was focused on getting answers to these questions.
35:22
SPEAKER_02: Those led me to realize new things.
35:25
SPEAKER_02: And that's why I think like books that expand at the end,
35:29
SPEAKER_02: Whether they're plotty books or not,
35:31
SPEAKER_02: you know, that's what I really like as a reader.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: And so I can handle like a plotty book that does that because I just I like that feeling.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying that Sanderson's for everybody or that he always does it great
35:46
SPEAKER_02: or you're along for the ride.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, I even think of like Agatha Christie.
35:51
SPEAKER_02: We know where her books are going and all of that.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: But like and then there were none.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: I still love rereading that because I actually really like the closing
36:02
SPEAKER_02: where she is explaining things.
36:04
SPEAKER_02: Right.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: She is telling you what happened, who did what, why it happened this way.
36:10
SPEAKER_02: Like it's a very explain the ending.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: It's not to spoil who did it or anything like that,
36:15
SPEAKER_02: but it's the person who did it saying why they did it.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: Right.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: And giving you their philosophy.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: But it's a really fun ending because it expands everything you've read already.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: This idea of justice and the inability of the criminal justice system
36:32
SPEAKER_02: to actually make people pay for their crimes.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: It opens up things for me at the end.
36:39
SPEAKER_02: Even when I learned the solution, I now have new things to think about.
36:43
SPEAKER_02: And I do.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: I love that sense of all of them.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's a really good point,
36:48
SPEAKER_01: especially I like that you brought it up in regard to two authors who have been kind
36:55
SPEAKER_01: of pigeonholed into probably more of like genre or plot to some degree,
37:01
SPEAKER_01: because I think that's where it gets interesting for me is the idea
37:05
SPEAKER_01: of closure versus ambiguity versus expansion.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: I think when you,
37:11
SPEAKER_01: a lot of the books that we talk about often,
37:12
SPEAKER_01: whether it's translated literature or,
37:15
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:16
SPEAKER_01: The Quiet Lives,
37:18
SPEAKER_01: I think to me,
37:18
SPEAKER_01: those definitely lend themselves to ambiguity and a lack
37:22
SPEAKER_01: of traditional closure being fine in many cases.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: But I think it's interesting what you just described because I think
37:31
SPEAKER_01: that gets harder depending on the type of book.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: I think it's harder to end a Brandon Sanderson or a mystery without some degree of closure.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: I think some of it is reader expectations.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why a Jane Austen book I'm okay with,
37:48
SPEAKER_01: and in fact,
37:48
SPEAKER_01: I love the way that they end because I kind of know what I'm getting into.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Whereas if there was a different author who did some kind of an ending like one
37:57
SPEAKER_01: of hers, it might end up being disappointing.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's where it's kind of fun to poke at this like we always do
38:02
SPEAKER_01: with expectations and genres because...
38:06
SPEAKER_01: I do think that plays a lot into this.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: What you're expecting as a reader could very much color how happy you are with
38:15
SPEAKER_01: the way that the author handles the ending, if that makes sense.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: But like you said,
38:21
SPEAKER_01: with Sanderson and Agatha Christie,
38:23
SPEAKER_01: I think they do a good job of...
38:27
SPEAKER_01: Because if you left it completely ambiguous after...
38:30
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: I think it's kind of the difference between like,
38:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what happened could be frustrating,
39:00
SPEAKER_01: but like I know why I'm not supposed to know what happened or I understand what
39:06
SPEAKER_01: the author was doing and not giving me everything.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: I think, again,
39:08
SPEAKER_01: it's kind of that trust between the author and the reader
39:11
SPEAKER_01: where you don't feel like you're just being tricked.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: And I run into this a lot.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: It's one of the reasons that I struggle with a lot of blockbuster movies and a lot
39:19
SPEAKER_01: of TV shows is We've talked a lot about how you can start to see things shift as
39:24
SPEAKER_01: a reader,
39:24
SPEAKER_01: but what I hate for the most part is when you can visibly see them pulling
39:29
SPEAKER_01: the strings, manipulating you to do certain things.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's another tricky part about endings is,
39:36
SPEAKER_01: I keep repeating myself,
39:37
SPEAKER_01: but I think if you keep that trust with the reader and it feels authentic
39:41
SPEAKER_01: to what they've been doing the rest of the time,
39:42
SPEAKER_01: whereas if you Can kind of tell near the end they're starting
39:45
SPEAKER_01: to do finale type things.
39:48
SPEAKER_01: To me that can ruin what has been otherwise a really good experience.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it becomes more
39:56
SPEAKER_02: spectacle than anything else.
39:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I wonder if a way to, like my favorite endings...
40:04
SPEAKER_02: They do narrow things down.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: They have to.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: Even the great literary ambiguous works have narrowed things down
40:11
SPEAKER_02: while enlarging things at the same time.
40:15
SPEAKER_02: That's the trick, right?
40:16
SPEAKER_02: That's how you do it.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: We just figured it all out.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh, we did.
40:20
SPEAKER_02: That's how you write a satisfying ending.
40:23
SPEAKER_02: Close it down, narrow it down while enlarging it.
40:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: But that is kind of what we're talking about, right?
40:30
SPEAKER_02: Like I said, with the sense with Sanctuary.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: There's always another secret.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: Realizing that at the end,
40:40
SPEAKER_02: you're getting things answered,
40:42
SPEAKER_02: but you start to realize I'm not asking the right questions.
40:45
SPEAKER_02: It's really fun and does keep that sense of intrigue.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: It does give you things that you wanted.
40:52
SPEAKER_02: While enlarging things even more and making you want more because it was so satisfying.
40:57
SPEAKER_02: And I think that works in these genre of things.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: But I do think that literary fiction does that with,
41:02
SPEAKER_02: like we were talking about with Absalom,
41:03
SPEAKER_02: Absalom,
41:04
SPEAKER_02: where it can start to resolve while making the meaning of the resolution expand,
41:13
SPEAKER_02: you know, more ambiguous.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: Make it so that when you close the pages, you've got to go, boy, I don't...
41:20
SPEAKER_02: That gave me a lot to consider.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: I thought we were going here,
41:24
SPEAKER_02: and I think that works, but I also need to now consider X, Y, and Z.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: And that can be very, very intriguing, or at least consider the book again as a whole.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: If I throw another example out, like The Remains of the Day,
41:39
SPEAKER_02: Having him,
41:39
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:40
SPEAKER_02: there's a,
41:41
SPEAKER_02: we've been following his kind of almost journal entries and they're dated.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: And we know the book is coming to a close because he's getting closer to meeting
41:51
SPEAKER_02: with Miss Kenton and to asking her to come back to work and all of this stuff.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: We know that we know the book is leading to that.
42:01
SPEAKER_02: And so we can kind of get that sense.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: And that date is becoming inevitable.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: It's getting very, very, very close.
42:08
SPEAKER_02: And then the date that it happens on is blank.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: It's nothing there.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: The book skips that entirely.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: And I can't remember exactly right now, but I almost think it does the same with the next day.
42:22
SPEAKER_02: And then you have a beautiful chapter of him recognizing things,
42:27
SPEAKER_02: being honest with himself while also still trying to lie at times.
42:31
SPEAKER_02: A moment of honesty leads to, but wait, no, let's re-figure this out.
42:37
SPEAKER_02: And it makes you, again, revisit everything that's happened so far and reinterpret it as well.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: And so the meaning becomes larger as we get there.
42:50
SPEAKER_02: And I love that kind of way of bringing a book to a close.
42:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, anyway.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: No, I agree.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: That was one I thought of.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: And I thought of another one that's one of your favorites,
43:02
SPEAKER_01: mine too,
43:03
SPEAKER_01: that does similar things with memory to some degree,
43:06
SPEAKER_01: which is A Month in the Country.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think it does a lot of what you just described,
43:11
SPEAKER_01: where in the case of A Month in the Country,
43:15
SPEAKER_01: we know for the most part the way things are playing out.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: There's a kind of a frame story around this whole thing.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: And so it's not about any kind of aha moment.
43:23
SPEAKER_01: It's more about When you get to the end,
43:27
SPEAKER_01: you have all this context that I think,
43:30
SPEAKER_01: like you said, expands everything you've read before.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: And to me, I think you're exactly right.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: That expansion,
43:36
SPEAKER_01: because even something like,
43:38
SPEAKER_01: think of Moby Dick, one of the most famous endings of all time.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say that was the only conclusion that it could come to,
43:45
SPEAKER_01: but it's not like it's probably a total shock to most people.
43:48
SPEAKER_01: But still,
43:49
SPEAKER_01: the way that it all happens when you finish it and then you think back of all
43:53
SPEAKER_01: the philosophy and everything else that's gone into that,
43:55
SPEAKER_01: it adds a whole different level.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: And so I think you're exactly right.
43:59
SPEAKER_01: The expansion at the end, and it can come quietly, or it can come spectacularly.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: I think, to me, that's a big part of it.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: That's a big part of all this.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: Another, you mentioned No Country for Old Men.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: I think one author who consistently does such a great job with endings is Cormac McCarthy.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: And I was thinking of both The Road and Blood Meridian,
44:26
SPEAKER_01: which have,
44:28
SPEAKER_01: those are two of the books when I was trying to think
44:30
SPEAKER_01: of like specific Closing images or very near the last five pages that have stuck
44:37
SPEAKER_01: in my head.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: Even though we're not thinking of closing lines,
44:40
SPEAKER_01: some of the culminations of his books at the end,
44:45
SPEAKER_01: I think, have created some of the most memorable moments for me.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's because of exactly what you just described.
44:52
SPEAKER_01: It's reflective of everything that's happening, but it's also like, now what?
45:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, you're leaving us here with this and it's like, what does all this mean?
45:04
SPEAKER_01: And so it gets you either wanting to reread it again or just to sit there and think
45:08
SPEAKER_01: about like with all of that that I just went through and then the way they left me,
45:13
SPEAKER_01: there is a lot happening that I have to think about.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: It's not just it is wrapped up,
45:18
SPEAKER_01: but it's also you feel like you're living in that book because it leaves you
45:23
SPEAKER_01: with all these questions and thoughts.
45:26
SPEAKER_02: Well, you brought up something that made me start to think that maybe as we come to
45:33
SPEAKER_02: a close of this episode and this little trilogy too,
45:36
SPEAKER_02: is maybe we need to narrow,
45:39
SPEAKER_02: you know, we've expanded and now we need to bring it back.
45:41
SPEAKER_02: Like we talked about at the start,
45:43
SPEAKER_02: and I do want this to be kind of a main part of this,
45:46
SPEAKER_02: that yeah, endings begin much earlier than we may think that they do.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: And we aren't just talking about final pages or the final chapter.
45:55
SPEAKER_02: At the same time, you brought up a couple of books.
46:00
SPEAKER_02: Well,
46:00
SPEAKER_02: we have brought up a couple of books that that final chapter almost makes or breaks
46:05
SPEAKER_02: the whole ending.
46:06
SPEAKER_02: You know,
46:07
SPEAKER_02: I can't tell you the number of times that someone has done a book club with and
46:10
SPEAKER_02: then there were none and had people show up who did not read the epilogue.
46:17
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
46:19
SPEAKER_02: Because they don't think that's part of the book or whatever, you know, I don't know.
46:22
SPEAKER_02: So they don't read the epilogue and they get there and they absolutely hate the book
46:26
SPEAKER_02: because it's like, well,
46:27
SPEAKER_02: that this stupid ending,
46:28
SPEAKER_02: you know, it didn't didn't work at all, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
46:32
SPEAKER_02: Very unsatisfying.
46:34
SPEAKER_02: And famously, Moby Dick was first published without its final chapter.
46:42
SPEAKER_02: You know, a mistake and people, you know, people hated that book for other reasons, too.
46:47
SPEAKER_02: But that was one of the things is like I've read this whole book and that's the ending.
46:52
SPEAKER_02: Whereas when you do get those little touches,
46:55
SPEAKER_02: that's what I think gives the ending the ability to really make its point
47:02
SPEAKER_02: and help us even see how this book is closed.
47:04
SPEAKER_02: Like if you the last page of The Great Gatsby, for example.
47:08
SPEAKER_02: That's what I was going to say.
47:09
SPEAKER_02: Again, we're getting into the final pages or the final lines and all of that.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: But they are almost like the opening page of an opening starts to give you its promises.
47:22
SPEAKER_02: But then you have to develop those and all of that as you still open up the book.
47:27
SPEAKER_02: An ending needs to start closing, but then you do need that final...
47:32
SPEAKER_02: That final thing to stick its landing to make sure the whole ending game has worked.
47:39
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, again,
47:40
SPEAKER_02: if you don't read the epilogue of And Then There Were None or you don't read
47:43
SPEAKER_02: the final chapter of Moby Dick,
47:46
SPEAKER_02: you've got a lot of stuff going on and the author didn't give you... Well,
47:51
SPEAKER_02: they gave it to you,
47:52
SPEAKER_02: but they didn't get a chance to deliver the final punctuation mark that really...
47:59
SPEAKER_02: It shows you what the ending was all about,
48:01
SPEAKER_02: or at least gives you the sense of,
48:03
SPEAKER_02: okay, here's where I can still go with this ending.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's true.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: And I think we're talking about closing acts and part of that is the closing line or
48:14
SPEAKER_01: the closing pages.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think obviously that you have to have that pyrotechnic explosion at
48:21
SPEAKER_01: the end,
48:23
SPEAKER_01: but I do think when it can be pulled off and it To me, again,
48:28
SPEAKER_01: it ties back to you could have some beautiful writing or a really explosive ending
48:33
SPEAKER_01: that just didn't work because it was unearned or didn't feel true to the book.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: But I think Great Gatsby is the one that I was thinking about a lot, too,
48:40
SPEAKER_01: because it has some of the most beautiful and famous closing lines in literature.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: But I don't think they would work if it hadn't tied in so directly,
48:50
SPEAKER_01: like if Fitzgerald hadn't earned it, for lack of a better word.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's true of a lot of these,
48:55
SPEAKER_01: like you think of James Joyce's The Dead,
48:59
SPEAKER_01: some of the most beautiful lines in literature, closed that book out.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: And it's quite a departure from the tone and the feel of the rest of the book
49:07
SPEAKER_01: in some ways,
49:08
SPEAKER_01: but it still ties in directly to the overall theme so well that you buy it.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: Or even something like 1984,
49:19
SPEAKER_01: that one is a little bit more on the nose,
49:20
SPEAKER_01: but that closing line It's just like a gut punch.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: And again,
49:25
SPEAKER_01: it could feel cheap,
49:26
SPEAKER_01: but you've kind of gone through this whole journey with the narrator or with
49:33
SPEAKER_01: the protagonist.
49:36
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, again,
49:37
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of it is just like so much of this with writing,
49:41
SPEAKER_01: if it feels tricky or you can see the strings being pulled,
49:46
SPEAKER_01: it could quickly ruin it.
49:47
SPEAKER_01: But I think it's such a subtle art of doing it in a way that There's a lot of ways
49:52
SPEAKER_01: to close a book,
49:53
SPEAKER_01: but I guess I don't want to discount the fact
49:54
SPEAKER_01: that there are these spectacular endings that have stuck around for a reason,
49:57
SPEAKER_01: but I don't think it's just because they came up with
49:59
SPEAKER_01: a good closing line like you would in an act,
50:03
SPEAKER_01: not a Terminator type of hasta la vista baby thing.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: It's earned and part of the reason that it's stuck around is because it is so true
50:13
SPEAKER_01: to everything that's taken place before it.
50:16
SPEAKER_02: There probably are books where the author really nailed that last line.
50:20
SPEAKER_02: We would just all love it if the rest of the book had been worth reading.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
50:27
SPEAKER_01: That was great, but it didn't really...
50:30
SPEAKER_02: I don't remember those.
50:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you're right.
50:34
SPEAKER_02: What a great way to bring us all together, Paul.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: In order for the ending to work, you do need the opening and you need that middle.
50:43
SPEAKER_02: Right.
50:43
SPEAKER_02: And you need a good closing progression.
50:46
SPEAKER_02: You need these things to all kind of be working to get the most out of your books.
50:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you're exactly right,
50:56
SPEAKER_02: though, that those final lines mean something just like the final chapter.
51:02
SPEAKER_02: If we're not going with a particular line,
51:04
SPEAKER_02: but the final chapter of Moby Dick,
51:05
SPEAKER_02: if it were just on its own, okay, well,
51:08
SPEAKER_02: Maybe we'd like it,
51:11
SPEAKER_02: but it really resonates because of everything that we've been dealing with before
51:16
SPEAKER_02: then, with all the themes and it's one more orphan.
51:23
SPEAKER_01: Not to put you on the spot,
51:24
SPEAKER_01: but any other just like closing acts that as you were kind of doing your research
51:28
SPEAKER_01: or thinking about this that came to mind?
51:31
SPEAKER_01: We've mentioned John Williams already with Stoner,
51:35
SPEAKER_01: but the closing act of Butcher's Crossing to me is one of the most powerful just
51:42
SPEAKER_01: because of everything it says about the journey that this character,
51:46
SPEAKER_01: but also the whole culture is going through.
51:49
SPEAKER_01: Again, I don't want to give too many spoilers,
51:51
SPEAKER_01: but the idea of promise and optimism and then the excitement and the glamour and
51:58
SPEAKER_01: then some of the realities of what all of that comes to,
52:01
SPEAKER_01: to me was just, I mean, so powerful, such, again, a gut punch.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: But that one stuck out to me as one that I wanted to make sure to mention
52:10
SPEAKER_01: because I think it's just every part of that book I love,
52:13
SPEAKER_01: but the way that it ends is definitely one of the reasons that I remembered
52:16
SPEAKER_01: as strongly as I do.
52:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think we've mentioned a lot of the ones that I'd kind of been thinking of.
52:24
SPEAKER_02: And maybe one of the reasons is I still think about them because the endings were
52:27
SPEAKER_02: so effective, you know, that they resonated with me over the years.
52:32
SPEAKER_02: I did start to think of books that I don't know how they ended as well, though.
52:38
SPEAKER_02: Me too.
52:40
SPEAKER_02: I've been reading Muriel Spark books this year.
52:42
SPEAKER_02: I've read seven of them.
52:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm in book eight of her chronological catalog.
52:49
SPEAKER_02: And I would be hard pressed on many of them to tell you...
52:53
SPEAKER_02: How they ended because she seems to be a lot of middle in a fine way.
52:58
SPEAKER_02: I don't mind,
52:59
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:59
SPEAKER_02: the ending seems to still fit what she's doing and her project and all of that.
53:05
SPEAKER_02: But I couldn't tell you all of that that happened and the whys and all of that.
53:11
SPEAKER_02: So I was kind of puzzling myself as I was preparing for it by coming up with,
53:17
SPEAKER_02: you know, here are some examples of endings that I don't think work.
53:21
SPEAKER_02: And here are some books that...
53:23
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't even tell you about the ending act or anything like that because,
53:27
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, it's like its own little thing.
53:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so funny you say that because that's kind of what I was trying to say
53:34
SPEAKER_01: to kick this episode off is one of the biggest realizations I've had about this part
53:38
SPEAKER_01: of the trilogy.
53:40
SPEAKER_01: It's not that the endings aren't important to me because I think a lot of the books
53:46
SPEAKER_01: that I think of as favorites or that I remember fondly,
53:48
SPEAKER_01: obviously it's because They wrapped up in a way that was satisfying to me.
53:53
SPEAKER_01: But when it came down to trying to remember what they said or how it ended,
53:58
SPEAKER_01: in a lot of cases,
53:59
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
53:59
SPEAKER_01: I actually don't have any idea how that book ended, which is really funny.
54:04
SPEAKER_01: Because I was,
54:05
SPEAKER_01: like I said,
54:05
SPEAKER_01: my thesis at the beginning was like,
54:07
SPEAKER_01: this is the last thing that you as the reader encounter the book with.
54:11
SPEAKER_01: And therefore, it's going to leave this huge lasting impression.
54:13
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of pressure on everybody to make it work.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: And then By the time I finished this,
54:17
SPEAKER_01: I had kind of abandoned that for the most part because I'm like,
54:20
SPEAKER_01: I don't
54:20
SPEAKER_00: know if that's
54:20
SPEAKER_01: true.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: I do think,
54:22
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
54:22
SPEAKER_01: if they fall flat on their face,
54:24
SPEAKER_01: then that's going to stick with you or if it's a spectacular ending.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: But for the most part,
54:28
SPEAKER_01: I think maybe a successful book in many cases is one where you remember...
54:34
SPEAKER_01: There's something about it, but it may not necessarily be one of these three categories.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: You know,
54:40
SPEAKER_01: it might just be like something from a Sebald novel that one image that took place
54:44
SPEAKER_01: on page 47.
54:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's what you will always remember about the book, which I think is kind of interesting.
54:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I like that, too.
54:52
SPEAKER_02: You're right, because I don't know how any of Sebald's books end.
54:56
SPEAKER_02: But I do love them.
54:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:02
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes.
55:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
55:03
SPEAKER_02: The characters get together.
55:06
SPEAKER_02: But at the same time,
55:07
SPEAKER_02: I think one of the reasons several of these books do continue to resonate is because
55:11
SPEAKER_02: the ending was successful.
55:12
SPEAKER_02: It didn't slap you in the face and make you feel stupid.
55:16
SPEAKER_02: And it didn't wrap everything up nicely.
55:20
SPEAKER_02: It's giving you things that you...
55:22
SPEAKER_02: The reason maybe even don't think about the ending,
55:25
SPEAKER_02: but think about everything else that happens in it is because the ending invited you
55:28
SPEAKER_02: to.
55:29
SPEAKER_02: It said, we're not over.
55:31
SPEAKER_02: Go back and revisit a lot of these themes or these characters.
55:35
SPEAKER_02: And that is probably a good reason why some
55:39
SPEAKER_02: of these endings don't necessarily stick out is that they made it so
55:44
SPEAKER_02: the book didn't end in our brains.
55:46
SPEAKER_02: We didn't put the book down and forget about it.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right.
55:51
SPEAKER_01: I think that was one of the things that I thought about a lot was some of
55:55
SPEAKER_01: the most powerful endings I can think of are books that enable you in whatever form
56:00
SPEAKER_01: to continue to live with the book beyond the reading.
56:04
SPEAKER_01: I think to me,
56:04
SPEAKER_01: that's one of the themes that ran through a lot of my favorite endings was
56:09
SPEAKER_01: in very different ways.
56:11
SPEAKER_01: They allowed you to continue to think and think about and live with and You know,
56:17
SPEAKER_01: hope for the characters.
56:19
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
56:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been really interesting to look at all these different parts of the books.
56:25
SPEAKER_01: I would love to hear people's thoughts on this because I don't know.
56:30
SPEAKER_01: I think I keep repeating myself, but it's
56:35
SPEAKER_01: All these pieces add up to make the book great,
56:39
SPEAKER_01: but I think more and more what I realized is,
56:43
SPEAKER_01: to me, I don't have a favorite or a must-have out of this.
56:46
SPEAKER_01: I think it gets blurred back together at the end.
56:52
SPEAKER_01: All these pieces do eventually merge back into the whole.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: It's just really interesting to think about it.
56:58
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
57:00
SPEAKER_02: Has it, have these, you know, digging in and talking about these affected your reading at all?
57:06
SPEAKER_02: Like as you're in a book,
57:07
SPEAKER_02: have you started to go,
57:08
SPEAKER_02: okay, yeah, there's, I, have they made you pay more conscious attention to books?
57:15
SPEAKER_02: The opening or the middle or the ends of a book.
57:19
SPEAKER_02: I have.
57:19
SPEAKER_02: It has made me stop and go, okay, how did that function?
57:26
SPEAKER_02: Not because I'm trying to figure out how the book works or how to write that book,
57:30
SPEAKER_02: but because I love thinking about the movement within it and the themes and
57:35
SPEAKER_02: the reason that I might be loving that character or this one.
57:38
SPEAKER_02: I think that helps enriches my reading experience.
57:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
57:44
SPEAKER_01: I mentioned it earlier,
57:44
SPEAKER_01: but reading The Waves in particular recently,
57:47
SPEAKER_01: I really thought about it a lot in that one because it is not a traditional book
57:52
SPEAKER_01: in any sense of the word,
57:53
SPEAKER_01: but at the same time,
57:54
SPEAKER_01: I could kind of,
57:55
SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed thinking about The evolution of what she was doing
58:00
SPEAKER_01: and what we were being told and revealed about the characters and then the way
58:05
SPEAKER_01: that it ends, I thought was really interesting.
58:07
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, absolutely.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: I think so.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: And this particular episode,
58:11
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things that made me realize was
58:14
SPEAKER_01: or made me wonder was maybe sometimes when I get to the end of a book.
58:19
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about this.
58:19
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I'm already starting to think about the next one or moving on.
58:24
SPEAKER_01: And the fact that I couldn't remember a lot of these endings made me wonder
58:28
SPEAKER_01: if maybe this is a good reminder to me to just sit when I finish a book and kind
58:33
SPEAKER_01: of just spend a little more time appreciating it, absorbing it.
58:38
SPEAKER_01: Letting it sink in before I just get called by the allure of the new.
58:43
SPEAKER_01: So it's not a fault or anything.
58:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm not taking it as a guilty thing,
58:48
SPEAKER_01: but in a good way,
58:49
SPEAKER_01: it made me think about maybe one of the reasons you don't remember these books is
58:53
SPEAKER_01: because you're not giving them enough respect at the very end.
58:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that that's a good point.
59:01
SPEAKER_02: And worth,
59:03
SPEAKER_02: I do think that that's been an effect on me too,
59:05
SPEAKER_02: is it's made me stop to think a little bit more about what's going on
59:09
SPEAKER_02: and not just simply bring it in and tomorrow I'll read the next 10,
59:12
SPEAKER_02: 15 pages until I'm finally done with this thing.
59:16
SPEAKER_02: It's made me consider the thing in more depth.
59:21
SPEAKER_02: So I've loved these conversations.
59:23
SPEAKER_02: I mean, lots of our conversations have affected me,
59:26
SPEAKER_02: you know, These might not even be the most impactful, but it has been impactful.
59:32
SPEAKER_02: And I think in a way that will continue to work that way.
59:38
SPEAKER_02: In Life and Fate, I keep on wondering.
59:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm almost through part two, I think.
59:43
SPEAKER_02: I don't remember exactly what page it ends on, but I'm getting close to page 600.
59:49
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm like, is this closing yet or not?
59:52
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
59:53
SPEAKER_02: We'll see.
59:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
59:55
SPEAKER_01: No, it's interesting that that's not to reopen it,
59:58
SPEAKER_01: but that is just definitely something the size and scale of the books also shift all
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: of these sections.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_01: Short story versus life and fate.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not just genre.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_01: It's also the scale,
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: both physical and kind of in your mind of what these books are trying
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: to do can really shape that, too.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's just as always, it's a.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: It's just fun to kind of pick away at some of the stuff and think about books
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: in lots of different ways.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: And we often send out invitations to listeners and I want to do that here.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_01: What are some of your favorite closing acts or any of the acts?
1:00:34
SPEAKER_01: What do you think different books have done well?
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: Because I think,
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: like you said, I'm always reluctant to dissect things and lose the magic of them.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_01: But I think in a conversation like this,
1:00:45
SPEAKER_01: It actually has the opposite effect and it starts
1:00:47
SPEAKER_01: to actually make them even more magical and make you just appreciate the art of all
1:00:52
SPEAKER_01: of this.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_01: It's such a fascinating thing to think about.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're doing it of our own free will, not because the teacher's telling us to.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_01: So if we got it all wrong, we don't get enough.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01:11
SPEAKER_02: All right.
1:01:11
SPEAKER_02: Well, that was fun.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_02: And that ends this little trilogy.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_02: We don't have any other series that we've been thinking about.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_02: In fact, I don't even know exactly what we're doing on our next few episodes.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_02: We need to get back to work on all of that as summer shifts into fall over the next few weeks.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_02: We'll get there.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_02: But looking forward to coming back here in a couple of weeks for the next episode,
1:01:34
SPEAKER_02: whatever it may be.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_02: Maybe for Paul's wishes, it's back to the whole book.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_02: In some way.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_02: Wherever we go, I
1:01:44
SPEAKER_01: know it'll be
1:01:44
SPEAKER_02: great.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_02: All right.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_02: Thanks, everyone.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_02: We'll talk to you soon.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_02: Bye, everybody.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Mooks and the Gripes podcast.
1:01:55
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1:02:00
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1:02:05
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1:02:12
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1:02:15
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1:02:16
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1:02:25
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1:02:34
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1:02:39
SPEAKER_01: May you keep exploring great books until next time.