Latest / Presentation Thinking / #218. What’s the shape of “The Odyssey”?

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#218. What’s the shape of “The Odyssey”? · Presentation Thinking

0:20
Welcome back to Presentation Thinking, AKA The Storyteller
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Study Club, the only business podcast that's ripping up our
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The Odyssey to learn. How can we become a better
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presenters and presentation people by dissecting it.
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Molly Gagan. Thank you, Christopher Nolan.
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Yeah, Mikey, are we the first business podcast to wade into
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the Odyssey discourse? No, I'm sure we're not.
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But are we the first presentation podcast to combine
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Christopher Booker with Christopher Nolan to see how we
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can give better like sales kickoff presentations?
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Let's go. The meeting of the Chris's.
1:01
Yeah. Yo presentation.
1:03
Nation. Yeah, Little.
1:05
How did we get here? If you if you're just tuning in
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for the first time, Mikey and I love talking about stories,
1:11
story shape, story structure and how we can bring all that into
1:14
our presentation, B to B world at work and sometimes not at
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work. And obviously stories are well
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extended well beyond work. And a book we read what Mikey,
1:25
almost two years ago. Here he is holding it down.
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Yeah. At least two years ago it was
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like, yeah, yeah. I think since starting the
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podcast, early 30s, early 30s episode numbers, we read a book
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called the seven Basic Plots by Christopher Booker and it is as
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the title suggests, he's outlining that every story can
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be kind of distilled down to a a single shape.
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One of these seven and he quotes in there tons of the tons of
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movies, classics, etcetera. And one of the Greek classics,
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Homer's the Odyssey. So when Christopher Nolan came
2:00
out with the odyssey just this summer, Mikey and I's little
2:03
story lights went off and we were like, uh oh, we better go
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once and even twice. Mikey, do you have hearing
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damage from? All of the scene, yo, they do
2:11
play it loud. It's loud.
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The music is it makes you feel something, but that's part of
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the. Point Cyclops, Yeah.
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Yeah, holy smokes, yo. But like what can presenters,
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presentation designers, marketers learn from film?
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Hopefully a lot like that's our point is like we think to study
2:31
to get better at at your presentation craft.
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It's it's good to look out, look beyond PowerPoint and damn,
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there's going to be some spoiler alerts.
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So like, if you haven't seen The Odyssey yet and you plan to,
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maybe don't listen to this episode just yet.
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If you aren't familiar with the 3000 year old story that's been.
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We'll try not to spoil anything that Nolan did uniquely, but if,
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but hopefully you're you're a little up to speed on old Homer
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because it is a classic old Homer.
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So may. If not, why don't you go read
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old Homer's The Odyssey? Thank you quickly.
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And then go go watch Nolan's The Odyssey and then and then join
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us. Yeah, yeah.
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We'll see you in a couple. You'll see it next week.
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Hey, we're back. Welcome back.
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We're. Back yeah welcome welcome all
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classic fans and. Molly, like, let me get your
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unfiltered. Just like, what did you think
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about the film the first time you saw it?
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Like what were you like, did you see like right away?
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Did you wait to hear a little bit from other people?
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I I was like a week in, yeah, a week or two in, not totally
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opening weekend. I think that following weekend,
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because, you know, I went to film school, Mikey was I say.
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And yeah, as we say, we think we can learn from this visual
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medium, specifically with B2B works, we work with PowerPoint
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and these visual things. So I think film more than a lot
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of other artistic mediums really, it does apply
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storyboards and slides, you know, and I was very, I was
4:01
particularly excited. I went in with my a little bit
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of film school skepticism knowing that I think Christopher
4:09
Nolan is an extremely talented filmmaker and I think he his
4:16
like challenge in filming all in IMAX just to show in case anyone
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doesn't know to film in IMAX is incredibly crazy because you can
4:29
only film for up to a few minutes at a time before the
4:31
roll runs out. It's so it's so high def and so
4:35
in like in your like real. And so they for A2 plus hour
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movie, 2 hours, 45 minute runtime.
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They would have had to and obviously that's just the final
4:46
cut. They would have had to change
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the film hundreds of times like so just to consider the
4:52
logistics of that. And no wonder the budget was so
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high. Hello.
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And and then paying all these A listers, of course, who are in
5:01
the movie. And he did the he built the boat
5:03
from scratch. They actually sailed the boat.
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Yeah. I was used for, I think like the
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Whirlpool and of course the cyclops and stuff.
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But there was so much practical effects.
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It's just always, always like a treat for the eyes, as people
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say. And like, it really is
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astounding what he has, what he can do and of course with with a
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big budget too. And so, yeah, I went in with
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knowing that like the spectacle would be amazing.
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And I'm usually moved by a Christopher Nolan film, I think
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not in the way always that I think his target audiences to
5:34
ours is specifically, you know, how men are always stranded in
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coming, trying to come home in Interstellar or so I'm not
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totally the target audience with like the lost wife, like I'm
5:46
trying to return to or something or assault or murder or
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whatever. Yeah.
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So I'm not totally the target audience, but I do think he he
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taps into something very, very beautiful.
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And so I was, I was excited. Yeah.
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And I thought he did like, yeah, technically delivered absolute
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spectacle. Matt Damon really blew me away.
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Specifically, I definitely didn't believe it was Matt Damon
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at the by the end. Whereas like sometimes with
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those Hollywood stars, I'm like, oh, it's still like a star to me
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and me and I can't see the character.
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And yeah, just, I had a fun time, really.
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I loved the, I loved the Haiti sequence.
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We can get into specifics and stuff, but and I and I, yeah, I
6:27
kind of, there was a few moments where I was like, right, like I
6:29
was like, Oh my gosh, I forgot. And I was remembering from AP
6:32
English class, right? Like humble bang.
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Oh yeah, sorry AP. No big deal.
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Yeah, I that was, I was like, I was AP English, but don't worry,
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not math, you guys. So that's why you find me here.
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And yeah, just it was a fun like cinematic time, like I had a fun
6:54
time in the theaters, you know, and that's been like, and I and
6:57
it was different than, you know, there's so many Marvel action
7:00
stories. So it was cool to see something
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more classic up on there. And that just felt kind of fresh
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in a way, even though it's a 3000 year old story and a 3000
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year old poem and song and see in a visual medium was really
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cool. So that's a good point.
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You were telling me like before we recorded that.
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Yeah, just reminder that this was originally like an oration,
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you know, it was, it was like told.
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And so to to visualize it and bring those things to life is so
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sweet. Yeah, definitely.
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And it told for across supposedly and it's very debated
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because there's even like historic historians debate like
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was home or even a lot singular person.
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Was it like multiple authors across multiple cultures because
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it incorporates so much space and time?
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This, this story, was it like? This department.
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Literally, yeah. Homered Inc.
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Yeah. Homered Inc Yeah, so Mikey in
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like our own studies here presentation to the club with
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the seven basic plots by Christopher Booker.
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He references the obviously so many times.
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And there's a specific shape to the story that we think might be
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useful in comparing and contrasting how it fits with
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Nolan's crispy Chris of the Odyssey.
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Let's revisit what which of the seven basic plots Christopher
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Booker assigned the Odyssey to. There are the seven are
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overcoming the monster, rags to riches, the quest, voyage and
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return, comedy, tragedy and rebirth.
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And the one that he identifies the Odyssey being is one of the
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most famous ones. The one you're probably most
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familiar with, even if you didn't know it is the quest and
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what he defines. I'll just read this quickly,
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Molly. No type of story is more
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instantly recognizable to us than a quest far away.
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We learn there's some priceless goal worth any effort to
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achieve. A treasure, a promised land,
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something of infinite value. From the moment the hero learns
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of this prize, the need to set out on the long, hazardous
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journey to reach it becomes the most important thing to him in
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the world. Whatever perils and diversions
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lie in the story, no lie in wait on the way.
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The story is shaped by that one overriding imperative, and the
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story remains unresolved until the object has been finally,
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triumphantly secured. Secured.
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Yep. And I mean, what is this is the
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quest? Yeah, the quest, Yeah.
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I'm gonna start calling myself like Odysseus when I'm like on
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an errand string, You know what I mean?
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Yeah, gotta. Go to that.
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The one thing I started questioning like so as I was, I
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was trying to revisit this and and think about I was like, OK,
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but is, is it Telemachus his son?
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Does he go on the quest or, or is it because for for our buddy
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Odysseus? Did he voyage out and is this
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about the return? And so he actually kind of gets
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in front of that. Even Booker, he says, like it's
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so subtly structured, the Odyssey with its flashbacks and
10:04
shifts in the center from which the narrative is related, that
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that's how Homer arranged it, that we we don't even begin with
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Odysseus at all. The story begins with a terrible
10:12
threat overtaking the Kingdom, you know, And so his son does
10:16
set out to go find him. But that's where we go.
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And then we see Odysseus. He's Midwest and his what's his
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big goal? His what is it?
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His priceless goal is his home. Yeah, to to his wife
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specifically. It's like, yeah, I just need to
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get home. And Mikey, I feel like you
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tapped into the perfect and like unique uusp of the of the
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Odyssey, if you will, is like this was credited as one of the
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like, if not the first, at least in Western literature.
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What of of messing with time, a time flashback.
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So no wonder Christopher Nolan likes it because as we all know,
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Christopher Nolan loves messing with time.
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If you haven't seen Interstellar and such, all those things.
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And he's momentum. Exactly.
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So that's, yeah, some school coming in handy there.
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And yeah. And So what more that to keep a
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reader's interest. It makes a story.
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It makes a story interesting. It gives us unique insight into
11:15
different characters and time periods.
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Such a cool storytelling device. But yeah, it starts us in the
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present, then we go back and then we go present way back and
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we do go back and forth. Nolan's definitely differs from
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how Homer tells it. But it's just so cool that the
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shape isn't linear. And I think that's what keeps
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people excited. I think that's what keeps people
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guessing, thinks that's what keeps the runtime 2 hours and 45
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minutes. But but that's but it's, it's
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cool because we get so many insights into where where
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Odysseus is. And then even just all of that
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is taking place post war. So I think in a lot of people
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minds, it's like, oh, the story is the war.
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It's actually what happens after the war and different things of
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like reckoning with yeah, violence and power and blah,
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blah. And the and the cost of war.
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And I think that's what the gods, because the gods present
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such barriers for Odysseus to get home in this like famous
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quest. And he was a great leader of the
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war. I don't know, he's a captain,
12:15
whatever his title is, but he but like, he's the one kind of
12:19
wrecked shouldering a lot of that guilt.
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I think a big theme is his guilt.
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So anyway, yeah, I mean, that's that's it, Mikey.
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That's it. You'd have to like, that's the
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the it's not linear, but we do have a lot of like arrivals.
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I think there's multiple quests within this for sure.
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I think Tamaculus, Tamaculus. Whatever the hell he's saying is
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Tom. Holland, Tom Holland is Oh man,
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I'm sorry he's so. Good.
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Yeah, he's great. And I think he's on his own
12:48
quest too. But I think at the, you know,
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especially for Nolan's, I think, you know, Matt Damon probably
12:55
got paid the most. So I think it's Odysseus story
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in this in this particular film. Yeah, yeah.
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But what is? But they have, it's almost
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broken up into vignettes. Like is, is what I was trying to
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say is like, there's this overarching narrative that is
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Odysseus's quest. But it's like all each scene has
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has has rise and fall, constriction and release,
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tension and, you know, release, whatever he calls it, ups and
13:21
downs to where, Yeah, there's all these, like, stories within
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the story. And those each have their own
13:28
intention and obstacle. But yeah, what what it's really
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cool to have Booker. He talks about almost like the
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thing that each of these has in common really being that sort of
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priceless goal. Like he's like, on the surface,
13:46
like these can all look so disparate, like, because of
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their variety of goals, from a golden fleece to a promised land
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to like some, you know, like immortality or paradise,
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literally. And for Odysseus, it's just
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home. But the, but I think it's,
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there's, there's other sort of like story gurus who talk about
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like if there's no desire, you don't have a story.
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And then if there's no conflict, you also don't have a story.
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So it's like you have to have this, this goal.
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And then there's they're a long way from it.
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And that's really where the story takes place.
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Yeah. Constant motivation check and
14:25
then a constant tension, like constantly.
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And yeah, the vignettes, I think Mikey, are like, no better way
14:32
than saying that's like how when you're storyboarding something,
14:35
you're like, what is this slide or what does this scene do for?
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We've talked to directors and film makers.
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We're like every scene has to have a has a purpose and then a
14:45
choice to move it along. But yeah, it's either, you know,
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even if it seems like it's moving Odysseus back, but it's
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moving the story along and there's like something he learns
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with each one. Yeah, I think this is the quest
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we can talk more about. But is one of more than any of
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the other shapes of stories. They're the heroes usually
15:02
surrounded by friends or companions.
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And we see that with his fellow soldiers.
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And we see that with Athena, who appears to sort of this like
15:10
guide or kind of a haunting presence of sorts.
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And but she helps him ultimately.
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And I think there's a there's a purpose for each of them.
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Every time he loses the men, it's like he loses one of the
15:25
men to temptation for the sirens.
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You know, it's like there's these like things they
15:30
represent. And so we like learn about those
15:32
kind of especially if you think of some of the classics are like
15:35
a little bit moral teaching stories where you're like, you
15:37
have to you have to abstain or you have to like get past your
15:42
ego or hubris or something, right Was.
15:45
It save the cat where they maybe that was it where they talk
15:47
about internal struggle, but like completely Dina was there
15:51
when he was just like, you know, he's not coming out of this war
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thinking like that was the best. You know, it's like we just
15:59
slaughtered that whole town. And no, he's like deeply
16:02
conflicted. Like did I screw up?
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Like I devised his plan and it's like he's like he said he's he's
16:08
carrying that. He's carrying the men that were
16:11
lost that were his each each step along the way.
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Yo, one thing that was I'm kind of having this epiphany is like
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you said, like we're back forth from the different vignettes,
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the different timelines. I don't think we meet him until
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his son is meeting with one of his fellow soldiers or like
16:34
leaders and is like, do you know anything about my dad?
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And and he's like some people say he's in in some kind of
16:40
prison. In like prison.
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What kind of prison? And then they cut to Calypso's
16:44
island, you know, like, yeah, yeah.
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Which is like such a cool visual, like show, don't tell.
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And then and then he's eating the Lotus, blah, blah, blah.
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But that every time they flashback, they use that island
16:55
as a device to like keep going back to the story.
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It reminds me of in the presentation, like those anchor
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slides or like you're signposting where you're like,
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you go back. Here's where we are in the
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presentation. Boom.
17:07
On to the. Next day and the audience of
17:08
where we're like, what we're doing especially like, I mean,
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it helps to go into this movie with maybe a little bit of a
17:14
semblance of the story, but if someone didn't like, you could
17:17
still follow it. There'd be like a lot of
17:19
characters and stuff going on. But then you know, you're like,
17:21
all right, Yep, I know we're going back into flashback land
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because Odysseus is all washed up, kind of messed up on this
17:28
island with Calypso eating the Lotus.
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And she keeps and he's putting his memory together and he's
17:35
like, what happened to my men? What happened to I'm supposed to
17:37
go home? Like he's having these pieces
17:38
come together and she's helping him remember like what what
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happened. And then we go back.
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So we we understand, especially with the beard cut, his beard
17:50
gets shorter and we're like, OK, now we're back.
17:52
And so he's not washed up on an island alone with Charlize
17:57
Theron anymore. But.
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And that's. And that's just yeah, another
18:00
vignette that we kind of keep that allows us to like he
18:05
there's a cool so we know the driver, as Chris Booker calls it
18:09
in the quest shape, and there's several acts he refers to HE4
18:14
acts in the story with like act 1 driver, act two, act three,
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act four, final driver. And Act 3 is interesting to me
18:22
in there's a whole nother set of frustration and obstacles once
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the heroes like finally within sight of his goal.
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So when all the timelines kind of link up and he and this is
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when you really feel the momentum building.
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This was my favorite part of the movie, I think was this Act 3 of
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Odysseus arriving back to Ithaca, right, his home.
18:44
And but it's filled with all these suitors trying to take his
18:48
wife and people potentially trying to like, yeah, like,
18:53
usurp his throne ascent. And it would be unwise for him
18:57
to reveal himself. And so he has to remain in
19:00
disguise for a while. He, like, makes the right move.
19:04
And so this is this the here, the goal is so close.
19:06
You're like, oh, my God. Oh, my God, this is so close to
19:09
it so far. But he finds another.
19:11
Yeah. Another terrible set of
19:13
obstacles. Right.
19:14
Yeah, that's that's really good. In in no or Christopher Booker
19:18
in the plot, you know, dissection of the book of
19:22
Homer's work, he points out that the call and the journey are 12
19:29
chapters, but then the the final, like the arrival and the
19:33
frustration and the final ordeal and the climax are another 12
19:38
chapters. But so I think Nolan compressed
19:40
it that part like the end, because like, dear God, that
19:42
would drag out. So like, he, he made the journey
19:46
by far the meat of the story because there's like, all these,
19:49
all these hurdles to overcome. Yeah.
19:51
So, and there's so many. And for a filmmaker, like,
19:53
that's just fun visual playtime. Like you wanted to show all the
19:56
monsters and we can actually, if you want.
19:59
Do you want to talk a little bit about monsters?
20:00
Yeah. So he so Booker talks about the
20:02
four different kinds of obstacles. 1 is like literal
20:06
monsters, which would be the cyclops.
20:08
Those like big giant gnarly dudes were in the silver.
20:11
There's the Cliff feeding monster with the six heads.
20:14
You know all those things. Then there's temptation, which
20:19
you see in in many, many stories, but in, you know, quite
20:23
a few temptations in the Odyssey, there was like, there
20:25
was this Cersei, you know, the, the enchanting like enchantress
20:30
who makes them eat that gross food that turns in them into
20:34
pigs. Then there's the Sirens, the
20:36
Lotus flower, Calypso. And then there's the Zeus's
20:39
cattle, which they're like, you're going to be tempted to
20:42
eat this. I wouldn't do it.
20:44
And then they do. And.
20:45
Then they do. There's always something where
20:47
you're like then. We're going to do it.
20:48
And so and then, yeah, that calls to light.
20:51
I think that's a good story device maybe even for, for like,
20:56
let's say you're talking to whatever your team, like getting
20:59
them ready for the year, like calling out what these
21:01
temptations are going to be that it's not always US against the
21:04
world. Sometimes it's US against
21:06
ourselves, you know, and, and we can't fall victim to we got to
21:09
stay disciplined. We got to we, we know like it's
21:11
going to be tempting to to take our foot off the gas in Q3 or
21:14
whatever. And then there's deadly
21:17
opposites. Is is the third type of
21:19
obstacle. That's the need for the hero and
21:22
his companions to travel an exact and very perilous path
21:26
between like 2 great opposing dangers, which was the Whirlpool
21:30
and the Cliff monster. Yeah, great.
21:32
And he has to choose like, what's the, what's the worse
21:36
better of two bads or, you know, pick your poison because he's
21:39
been given insight in that that choice of like your men are
21:42
going to die either way. So who less death is like the
21:46
choice he does. And his his men get mad at him
21:49
for that. So of course there's more guilt
21:51
and more of these things where he's but he's like, yeah, but we
21:53
were all going to die in the Whirlpool, right?
21:54
So that's like, you know. Like rationalizing really,
21:59
really hard decisions. That is some leadership stuff.
22:01
That's some stuff that you could hear in like a maybe a
22:03
motivational keynote or a Ted Talk or a or something,
22:07
hopefully. With lower stakes, yeah.
22:09
And hopefully not the last of the obstacles, which is a visit
22:11
to the underworld. Oh yes, let's talk about that
22:14
because that visual, I think visually absolutely my favorite.
22:17
And content wise, the writing I thought was so good, mostly
22:21
because, yeah. And Elliot Page Sinon, who's a
22:24
soldier that isn't even in the Odyssey, the the book
22:29
originally, but is in a different Greek classic as I
22:31
read on Sub Stack. I did not know that myself, but
22:35
and he represents this like innocence because he willingly
22:41
goes to war despite the drawing a lot of not having to go.
22:45
But someone trades with him the count and tenuous and tenuous,
22:50
AKA Robert Pattinson, and and he is the one that doesn't know
22:55
about the Trojan War plan and is just gets killed really easily,
23:00
unfortunately from from the some Trojan soldiers.
23:04
And they, yeah, he he reckons with, he like confronts Odysseus
23:08
about that. He's like, why don't you tell
23:10
me? You know, that's it.
23:11
And I think that's, he kind of represents, I think like the
23:14
epitome of Odysseus's Guild because it's such an innocent
23:17
man that like he kind of not took advantage of, but like, you
23:20
know, sacrifice to the plot essentially, but talks about how
23:24
brave he was. And then he's able to send a
23:27
message from sin on home, which he does, especially to Antinous.
23:31
And I think that through line for Nolan's was an interesting
23:33
choice because that again, that's not in the in the
23:36
original Odyssey, but that through line kind of being like,
23:39
I took this, you know, I talked to the innocent man that that
23:41
that passed to talk to his spirit.
23:44
And I'm taking it home to ship to like to prove him to someone
23:49
and to his family. And he calls him later the
23:51
bravest man I ever knew kind of thing, which I thought was a
23:55
choice and a little trans representation.
23:58
That's not that's not necessarily a throwaway line,
24:00
right? Yeah, that's.
24:01
That's pretty cool. So thanks, shout out Chris
24:04
Nolan. I think that's pretty awesome.
24:05
And, and, yeah, just the Haiti setting, how they so like,
24:09
imagine as a filmmaker, like, how am I going to show them
24:12
talking to like, shades, like they're the corpses of these
24:15
soldiers. And just the way they appeared
24:17
and they were darker and kind of beyond this, like, like earthly
24:24
plane. It seemed like earth was
24:25
reversed or something. But they were kind of like out
24:27
of the dirt in a way of the earth, but like, still kind of
24:31
like poisoned and uncomfortable. Like they weren't really at
24:34
rest. And chase him out of Hades once
24:36
he chooses to leave. Oh, so spooky.
24:39
And I just thought it was really, really cool.
24:42
And that's where I think Christopher Nolan shines too.
24:44
Is like there wasn't a ton of technical stuff.
24:46
It was like tonally and just like the script was great and it
24:51
wasn't crazy like, you know, appearances and sets.
24:57
It was just like really like and the the music was really low and
25:00
slow shout. I know you've mentioned the
25:02
music before. We recorded Mikey.
25:04
Very. The very talented Ludwig
25:06
Goranson was the Ludwig. Yeah.
25:10
So anyway, I just, I thought that was such a cool scene and
25:13
potentially my favorite. Yeah.
25:16
And. The yeah, you're right.
25:19
Like the the mood can be transformed with I mean, like
25:24
that is it was it was like blue, like Blues and Grays and blacks
25:29
in that scene. There was unique from any of the
25:32
rest of the film. So much you can do with visual
25:35
storytelling, even just with what what the meson scene or
25:39
whatever, like just the ambience of it and the, yeah, colors and
25:43
tones. That was gorgeous.
25:46
And it was also a a point where there's this like knowledge
25:49
transfer from, from Elliott Page's character back to
25:54
Odysseus where he realizes shit's going down back home.
25:57
Like he, he hadn't really heard word yet.
26:00
And in the quest, like he's almost being questioned, like,
26:04
do you not want to get home, man?
26:05
Like what's going on? You know, like because because
26:07
he was, he doesn't know if he did the right thing.
26:10
He's afraid in some ways to get he wants to go home, but he's
26:13
also like internally holding back.
26:15
He's. Afraid to face like, the truth
26:17
of like who he is. I think.
26:19
Yeah. What?
26:19
They've done, yeah. What they've done Breaking the
26:22
law of Zeus, they say. Yeah, and so, but this I felt
26:26
like reinvigorated him. Now he's like, now he's like
26:28
requested almost. And he make they make their
26:32
final push. Of course Zeus gets pissed, you
26:34
know, because they screw up a few more times, but he makes it,
26:38
Yeah. Yeah, that's true, because in
26:40
Haiti, the soldiers do say, like, do this, do XYZ to honor
26:44
us. They say, like, take the boat
26:45
and sail into the horizon. Yeah.
26:46
So that. Yeah, that kind of that, yeah.
26:48
It's such a key scene. I'm like re remembering that
26:51
moment where he's like, OK, yeah, you're right.
26:54
Like this is what I got to do. And I think it's important for
26:56
him to face the people that he's like kind of account he'd been
27:00
accountable for that that past, you know, that were killed.
27:04
That's that's a big one. Yeah, it was.
27:06
Good there and there's just like yeah, I talked you talked about
27:10
music. I think here again, when
27:13
thinking about maybe a video, like if you're making like video
27:17
or any types of marketing, the all the senses, right, sight,
27:23
sound, touch. But in this one it was like a a
27:25
lot of sound and and sight. So the visuals like that, like
27:30
up and down and bright and and dark.
27:33
And then the the you can tell like there's almost like a theme
27:38
to the music. Like there there's a couple
27:40
times where there's this like almost drunken like dystopian
27:44
jazz porn that came in. Pipe.
27:47
Yeah, exactly like a like a kind of fully.
27:51
Like isolated, just like it's like, what is it?
27:53
And it's so unsettling. But he it's almost like they use
27:57
it when he's giving a monologue or like reflecting back, like
28:00
when he finally gets to Penelope and he's just like talking about
28:04
the war and wondering if they screwed up and like what he
28:07
realized. And everything builds like each
28:11
scene like grows in tension, tension, tension, tension, like
28:16
longer than you would expect. And and so you're starting to
28:19
like get this like pit type feeling until there's finally
28:22
some break in the action. It's crazy.
28:24
Especially because by that point, you know, there's a
28:26
pattern with the vignettes. And this is another thing people
28:29
can really build on in storytelling and any, in any
28:32
medium, business or, or blockbuster, from business to
28:35
blockbuster. That can be our our line here,
28:37
Mikey. But yeah, it's like you can you
28:41
can build a pattern and then break it.
28:42
You know, we're watching these vignettes.
28:45
So like, OK, I'm going to see a couple of men die.
28:47
I'm going to see a couple of men die or whatever.
28:48
But then there's like, I think something that breaks it really
28:51
well is the Cersei sequence because it's so unexpected.
28:55
And love. I just want to talk about that
28:57
one because it's like such a such a great representation and
29:00
interesting theme about the true nature of men and what the
29:04
guilt, like the guilt that the soldiers are grappling with.
29:06
Because Cersei, the goddess who lives alone on her island, turns
29:11
anyone that comes and threatens her into animals.
29:14
And she turns the men into pigs, which she calls their their true
29:18
form and calls them. And when Odysseus confronts her
29:21
about it and he's like, can you, you know, she turned women into
29:25
pigs. And she's like, yeah, it's their
29:27
it's their true form. And when she gets them back into
29:29
being human, she's like, out of your disguises.
29:31
She claims that. Back to your disguises.
29:33
Yeah, back to your disguises, which I just think is such an
29:35
interesting theme and and discussion and but Cersei as a
29:42
goddess was a portrayed very differently.
29:45
This is something just a Nolan choice I want to bring in
29:48
because Cersei was like very lavish, lived in a castle, very
29:52
gorgeous, kind of temp like a little temptress, like would
29:55
have been a little seductive to men coming in.
29:58
And in Nolan's adaptation, she's she's kind of homely, a little
30:02
witchy and play by Samantha Morton.
30:06
And I wonder if that's just an interesting choice.
30:08
And Odysseus asks her, she's like, did my men hurt you?
30:11
And she said no, but they would have.
30:12
And so she has this like anticipatory, like this is what
30:15
men. Do.
30:18
Yeah. And so that's an interesting
30:19
theme and Pat, because you're like kind of anticipating XYZ
30:24
with that and you're like, but what's she going to do?
30:25
And yeah, that that horror sequence of the body horror of
30:29
them turning into pigs. There's this is a less of a
30:32
business thing, but there's a whole Substack article I'll link
30:35
where it's the genres of horror that that Nolan fits in.
30:40
There's, you know, the eldritch kind of folk folklore style
30:43
horror with the Cyclops. There is cosmic horror with the
30:46
Whirlpool, and then there's supernatural horror with the
30:49
Haiti. So there's a lot of different,
30:51
you know, for all those film people waiting for Nolan to make
30:54
a horror film, this is a whole threat of people.
30:55
Mikey, the body horror. I think this is a this is a
30:59
little insight into the like the world he can tap into.
31:02
The I thought was really well done and horrible.
31:04
The the sounds when they were drinking the soup.
31:07
Oh, it's disgusting. And like, yeah.
31:13
And they're getting like possessed by it.
31:15
Yeah. It's really interesting.
31:17
So anyway, I just think that's that's a fun little a fun little
31:21
insert Mikey. OK, so OK, back to the I mean,
31:27
back to Act 3. When he returns to Ithaca, he
31:32
has to face this whole string of suitors.
31:34
And what is Christopher Booker say at the very end?
31:38
But the hero has to face a final Test.
31:40
And what is a more explicit test than shooting an arrow through
31:46
100? 12 axes. 12 axes, but and
31:53
stringing the bow, that's like impossible to string for
31:56
Odysseus. And what a more like, yeah, a
32:00
literal test of like identity and power and like, connection
32:08
then like this one thing that this one guy can do, you know,
32:12
and. Then a good old fashioned
32:14
massacre and. Then a good old fashioned oh
32:16
lock the doors will kill. Everyone, it's on site.
32:19
Scary. Times Robert Pattinson doesn't
32:21
contribute to the fight at all. He's just yelling around for
32:25
people to get the weapons. Yeah.
32:27
That's so intense. Like the first time I've seen it
32:30
twice. The first time was with my wife
32:32
and she was like, she was like embarrassed of she's like, you
32:36
were like audible during the movie because I kept being like,
32:39
oh, oh. That's hilarious, yeah.
32:43
So she was like, I bet you were really into that.
32:45
Yeah. That scene is like the most
32:48
tense for sure. I mean, once they once the
32:50
suitors back at Penelope's, you know, back at Ithaca, realize
32:56
it's Odysseus, they're like, oh, it's on like we got to fight
32:59
either fight this guy. What I think is interesting is
33:01
the choice. You see suitors start to choose,
33:04
which is bending the need to him to accept him back into his
33:07
like, quote UN quote rightful position thrown and versus the
33:11
ones that are hanging on for dear life.
33:15
You know, to be like this is this isn't how it's supposed to
33:18
go. I was supposed to like because
33:20
in in tenuous this character. I know I'm not saying that,
33:23
right. He is like determined to to get
33:27
what he wants by, like, trickery and cleverness.
33:30
He like works with the Penelope's made as well, you
33:33
know, their little thing. And so.
33:36
But I think it's kind of that morality thing comes back like
33:38
his. His trickery could only go so
33:40
far. And Odysseus killed him and.
33:43
No. But not before returning Sinan's
33:44
little token and saying this is, you know, from the bravest man I
33:47
ever knew. What a bully.
33:49
Yeah. What a bully.
33:50
Yeah. Yeah, but so, so many themes of
33:55
yeah, right and wrong and and and like theme.
33:58
For days Moral. Conflict.
34:01
Fascinating. So I think.
34:03
Yeah, one of the reasons maybe the Odyssey is so broad reaching
34:07
is because it covers so many themes.
34:08
I will say something we tell audiences Mikey isn't to pick
34:13
like usually just was. Especially if you're just doing
34:15
like a 20 slide deck, you should just pick 1 theme like no more.
34:20
So this isn't this is like if you're building, if you're
34:23
trying to build something that lasts 3000 years, you can talk
34:25
about everything. You can talk about all the
34:27
themes, religion, war, guilt, being a man I like, but I don't
34:33
think if you're just creating a little presentation, I think you
34:36
should just stick to one. That's my.
34:39
Yeah, I think so. I think these things are fun to
34:42
just yeah, dig into, see how like just what what got us
34:48
feeling something or not. And yeah, just like such a
34:52
beautifully done film and just like, yeah, I thought it was
35:00
just stood out to me because I haven't seen anything like that
35:03
in so long. And like you said, the product
35:04
like what they put into it obviously broke some records was
35:08
just like kind of never before done.
35:10
Never before done as they. Yeah.
35:11
No, I think it is the first film in all IMAX.
35:13
Yeah. Crazy one.
35:16
We'll call out. I have so many.
35:19
Should we open the spice cabinet?
35:20
I have so much to put in here. We've got, We'll include the
35:24
trailer for good measure in case you haven't seen, but we'll
35:28
include famously Emily Wilson's translations, regarded as one of
35:33
the more prevalent, modern and funny in incorporating some of
35:38
Homer's humor and humanity into into her translations.
35:43
She has a really interesting review, kind of scathing, I will
35:48
say, of Nolan's rendition. And we didn't get into this too
35:53
much Mikey, but he chooses. One of the biggest choice
35:56
differences is Nolan's writing is a really modern dialogue.
36:00
You know, we've got Telemachus saying dad and not father.
36:04
And you can there's a some almost some Americanisms in it,
36:08
like people using like saying fuck off and stuff.
36:11
You hear like, yeah, like there's just some.
36:13
There's just a lot of modernity in it.
36:14
At first. It took me a while to get used
36:16
to, but it's clearly a choice of his of like this is the the
36:20
modern. This is Nolan's modern
36:22
rendition, whereas and I'm using the visual show, don't show,
36:25
don't tell. Like there was less.
36:27
Maybe there's like maybe he wanted to focus on the the
36:30
visual aspects of everything and less of dialogue would
36:33
translate. So anyway, there she brings that
36:35
in. She brings in as some other
36:37
tropes and and thoughts, but I just think it's a fun to
36:40
consider all this. The sub stackers went crazy with
36:43
the Odyssey. Mikey, I'm on sub stack and I'll
36:45
include the genres of horror was really fascinating to me.
36:49
There's a couple other really fun ones where people deep dove
36:52
into like Cersei, different portrayals of Cersei collection
36:57
of styles. The the humor in the odyssey,
37:02
the how the cyclops lacked the exchange with that famous
37:06
exchange with Odysseus. Nobody heard.
37:10
Yeah, If you remember that from from reading the Odyssey, where
37:14
after he attacks the Cyclops, the other cyclops come up to the
37:17
Cyclops. They're like, who hurt you?
37:19
And Odysseus had previously identified himself as nobody,
37:22
and that's just how clever he is.
37:24
So anyway, I have got all these fun.
37:25
Little that was snubbed and nobody got snubbed from this
37:28
film, so. Someone talks about like the
37:29
humor and so and then even that. I found an epic, a Greek epic
37:34
classic reading list. If you're super into this,
37:37
here's go read some more. There's some really interesting
37:40
work going around, so I've got some fun stuff I'll include in
37:42
the spice cabinet there. There was the funniest line in
37:44
the movie. What?
37:46
Which there aren't many, but it's like right after they
37:49
stabbed the cyclops in the eye with a burning log.
37:53
And then they discovered that it's it's it can talk and they
37:56
can't understand it, but. But his like, lieutenant's like,
37:59
should we reason with it? And Damon's like, I think we're
38:02
a little past that now, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I love that one.
38:06
His one joke and. Then I like.
38:08
I actually liked this line a lot, where they're like, why
38:10
didn't it talk to us before? And he says, would you talk to
38:14
ants? Yeah.
38:15
Yeah, yeah, I. Think that's interesting because
38:17
they like acknowledge that they're like just little grubby
38:20
and like almost like animals on the ground to this cyclops
38:23
because like he's huge and he's like you're just walking among
38:27
my sheep. So I don't think much of you and
38:30
I think that's like a was a kind of an ego check and also like a
38:33
perspective that I just love that line.
38:35
Would you talk to ants is a creepy.
38:38
Scene. Yeah, very, very loud.
38:40
Pretty good ear plugs. What else in the spice cabinet,
38:44
Mikey? Yo, we are coming up very close
38:50
to story camp. There's still time to get in.
38:53
I don't know when we're going to air this episode, but there's
38:56
still time, especially if you live within reach of Denver, Co.
39:00
We have two, two full days of epic programming, three nights
39:04
at the Chautauqua just outside of Boulder.
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It's going to be awesome. So come, if you want to level up
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your story, your screen, your stage with about 75 fellow bad
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ass marketer, storytellers, communicators, don't miss out.
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Go to storycamp.com. And if you have like a need, if
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you work at a big company and you are struggling drowning in
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PowerPoints, Zeus is cracking down throwing lightning bolts
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all around your org and people are just like drowning in in
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presentations. Call your good friends at Ghost
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Ranch Communications ghostranch.com They live and
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to the top. The Olympus A presentation
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elevation. Yes.
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Take your. Molly is a good, good spot.
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I had my spot voice. Perfect.
39:56
Nope. Beautiful.
39:57
Yeah. And cut.
39:58
Yeah. Well, thank you for tuning into
40:01
Mikey and Molly's occasional film club.
40:04
And until another director makes an adaptation of one of our
40:09
beloved one of our beloved stories, we'll see you again,
40:12
you know? All right.
40:13
Until then, keep on picking.