Latest / Arrivals: A Birth Story Podcast / A breech baby, a crash C-section, fourth trimester guilt, and finding your village

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A breech baby, a crash C-section, fourth trimester guilt, and finding your village · Arrivals: A Birth Story Podcast

• Merelise Wilson: All right. Hello and welcome to the Arrivals podcast. I'm your host, Marylis Wilson. And today I'm so, excited to have Shannon Howell with me. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. ⁓ I cannot wait for everyone to hear your birth stories. The second one is quite wild. One of the more unique ones I've ever heard. Hopefully it gives other people experience that, hey, like we all have very unique birth stories and you know, it's okay. as long as they're happy and healthy and you're happy and healthy. It's all that matters at the end. So definitely. Yeah, absolutely. Before we get to that one, we should start with your first with your little boy. Perfect. So I have a son named Henry. He is two and a half years old. Funny story. My daughter, Cecilia, she's six months and my son, their original due dates were the exact same. ⁓ don't know how that happened. I guess we're just a very like programmatic. ⁓ But it was genuinely by chance. So they were both intended to be born October 28th. That was their due date. Halloween babies. Halloween babies. And I was kind of devastated to have a Halloween baby because I just didn't want them to have a birthday that was really close to a holiday and have all that. And instead, their birthdays are one week apart because they were both born early. I know. They were very early. I was trying to do the math quickly in my head. Did both of them make it to October, or was either of them in September? They were both September. So they are exactly one week apart. One was born at 35 weeks, and one was born at 36 weeks. yeah, but Henry was originally, ⁓ you know, we were so excited to get pregnant. And we originally had been done for at the time, and that's where he was born. It was a pretty honestly easy pregnancy. was one of those, you felt like you were glowing. You felt like nothing could go wrong. And there was no indication of him. coming early. In fact, it was the biggest surprise because my husband went to a bar that weekend or that night because he was going to go watch, I don't know, was some football game or something. And then we had listed our house and put it on the market because we were intending to move to Atlanta, which is where we ultimately are. And in that time, we were in an Airbnb. And we were three houses down from our house. So we can kind of creep on people that were looking at our house. We had two dogs, this tiny Airbnb basement in Denver. And I had said to him, go out, have fun. I'll see you in a couple hours. go to bed at 8 o'clock, and I'll see you in the morning. Literally. Literally that. I was like, you go have fun. I'm exhausted because I'm in my last month. This is the month where I'm just going to put my feet up and relax. I'm sitting in bed and I'm texting a girlfriend and I distinctly remember telling her, I just feel like I have lost control of my bowels and everything. I can't see my feet. I can't pick anything up. I felt huge and uncomfortable at that point. I was just ready for the baby to come out. And we didn't have a name at that point. We had two names battling in our head and I just wanted to wait until seeing him about what he was going to do. look like and be like and personality and all that. We knew he was a boy. And both of her kids, we found out gender early on. And I'm sitting there and I'm texting her this. And I said, yeah. And I just feel like I have to pee all the time. And after I sent that, I thought I peed, which turns out was not the case. So she's laughing. And she's like, ⁓ yeah, that last trimester really gets to you. And I remember thinking to myself, well, you know, I'm just not feeling great. So I'm just going to go and take a bath, which I didn't know at the time you weren't supposed to do if your water broke. Yeah. But it was my first pregnancy. Yeah. There's no roadmap. No. There's no, like, you could ask all these questions to your OB, but you have to kind of plan a lot of that. And there just some things about pregnancy that no one tells you. Yeah. That's part of the reason why I want to have this podcast, so more people can learn. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the whole thing, right? You hear the pregnancy glow, but then you don't hear about how uncomfortable the sciatica, the just like you name it. And I had really, really bad sciatica and back pain and the early back labor that I didn't realize was labor until it was after the fact. I'm taking a bath and I'm still feeling like I'm peeing myself. TMI. No such thing on this podcast. Right. And I climb back into bed and I'm Googling. This is like pre-chat GPT or Claude. I'm looking at a look, looking up, how do you know when your water is broken? And they said lay down for 15 minutes, they being the internet. Right. Dr. Google. Dr. Google. WebMD tells you all the worst possible things that could be. not great for anxiety, but they, laid down and 15 minutes later, they're the stand back up. And if you're still trickling, most likely your water is broken. And it's not this movie scene, water gushing moment or a pop. Sometimes it was just a trickle. So I did that. And sure enough, I was like, I think my water's broken. But in this whole scenario, I'm still in the Airbnb by the way. Got my two dogs there. And I just didn't want to bother my husband because I didn't think it was that serious. And I wasn't having contractions. There was no other signs. you were 35 weeks. So you probably thought, Oh, I don't know. Something else. Yeah. And I really did. I thought that I just, this was a, the unknown unspoken thing about pregnancy. Because again, no one tells you any of that. So in my head, I thought, Oh, I just didn't do enough reading. Right. I didn't look into it. didn't ask enough questions. And at this point, I had gone through all of the clothes that I had because I just wasn't stopping. bless this Airbnb. I took one of their towels and I'm like laying in bed with it and I am butt naked. mean, naked is day I came. Where all your clothes kind of packed up or most of your clothes packed up. So you'd gotten through all the clothes you'd brought to the Airbnb. Mind you, like I'm three houses down from like my house. I could have walked back, but I just, as this point I'm thinking, all right, it's just a hassle. The house is show ready. I don't want to ruin anything and it's nothing. So, and like my husband had the go bag in our car. So I wasn't going to go and like get things from my go bag. Cause I would just be pooping on myself later. So fast forward. He comes home, and we only had one key in the Airbnb. And he'd given me the key because he wanted to make sure that if I wanted to go for a walk or something, that I could lock up and leave. So he comes in, and the door is locked because I had locked right before I was going to go to bed. And he's banging on the door, and there's no doorbell or anything like that. So I'm thinking to myself, I'm going to be butt naked when I open this door, and I really hope that it's my husband and not someone else. So I open it and he looks, takes one look at me. goes, are you okay? And just does this like with his hand, like an evaluation. Yeah. Yeah. An evaluation. And I said, I don't want you to panic, but I think my water was broken. And so he went immediately into, ⁓ okay, like no worries. We've got the go bag ready. Also a hundred percent pack the go bag well before you think you'll ever need it. yeah. ⁓ yeah. Like, He told me when I was 32 weeks, because he went to a dad class. Aw. It was so cute. And he said, everyone says that if you pack your go bag, when you least expect it, that's exactly when it's going to happen. And I put the last items in the go bag. I'm not kidding you when I say two days before we went into this Airbnb for the house showing. He's just like, just, I was nervous and I wanted to make sure we had everything. And he was the one that was begging me. He says, I will pack it for you. Tell me what you Because like, I'm a very type A person, but in this situation, I wanted to go with the flow and I didn't have any reason to think that I was going to go early. ⁓ So we called nurse. She says, come on in. ⁓ Most of the time, people who don't think they need to come in are the ones who need to come in. ⁓ And the people who do come in, it's always great to see them. And it's always great to rule anything out that makes them feel anxious or uncomfortable, but most of the time they're okay. Yeah. And she's like, I feel like you need to come in. So we packed our bags. ⁓ it was like eight o'clock when my water had broken. ⁓ and then by nine, nine 30, ⁓ we got to the hospital in Denver and they triage you and the entire time the nurses. kind of smiling and she's laughing. And I'm in the car, by the way, in this moment. I'm like, just, oh, I'm not feeling great. Like I just really crampy. Again, no one tells you that's what contractions feel like. And we get there and the entire time I'm in denial, I kept telling the nurses, you'll just give me some steroids. I'm sure I just need fluids and I'm just going to head on home. Like everything will be fine. And we were super chill. We were just really relaxed about it because at the end of the day, the best place we could be is the hospital. If anything was wrong, if they needed to keep me, I was there. So the lady is laughing and the nurse is like, you know, honey, you're not going home tonight. She's like, yeah, this, this baby's coming. Your water is. Yeah, I was exactly. was like, and sure enough, she's like, yeah, your water is definitely broken. Like you're going to have a nukie baby. So we want to prep you for that. Your 35 weeks under 36 in Denver is automatic NICU stay. So TBD on amount of time, we assess that when they're born. Yeah. And I wanted to wait as long as possible to get an epidural. I really, really wanted to not like experience at all, but I had just heard a lot of people who had birth stalled because they got an epidural and You know, for whatever reason, right? And everyone's body experiences different things. I thought to myself, I'm going to go as long as possible just to see how much my body can take. And when I feel like it's the right time, I'll go ahead and get it. And it was great because even the anesthesiologist, he comes in and he says, you can get the epidural up until the moment you push. Right. As long as you can hold still. Yeah. He says, as long as you can hold still and as long as you know that it takes 30 minutes. So if you don't have 30 minutes, not going to do much for you. That's true. And 12, 30 in the morning rolls around and I said, I think we should probably call it. Like I should get that material. I think it was like seven centimeters at that point. So it wasn't. That's great. Yeah. I was like, I'd progress pretty quickly, but not so fast where I felt like I was out of control. Did you feel, how did the contractions feel for you? Once you accepted they weren't just cramps. Once you were like, okay, I'm having contractions. How did they feel? Like, were they manageable for you? They were so manageable. That's awesome. Yeah. And I was really, really grateful because I had heard, and I heard in your podcast, right? Like you have such a variety of experiences where someone's five centimeters is like someone's dying. Right. We all tolerate pain in different ways. Totally. And it depends on like the positioning of the baby. Like so many different factors, size of the baby, all the, yes, all the things. All the things. And again, things I don't tell you. And in my head, I thought it was going to be awful and brutal and unbearable. And it was midnight and I thought, maybe, probably in an hour, I think I'll need it. So I'm doing this in preparation for that because of where I was. And my contractions were maybe every three minutes or so. I'm sorry. No, yeah, it wasn't crazy. So did you have any other sort of like plans or preferences other than just wait as long as possible and then get an epidural? That was it. That was it. I had heard my OB had said something and that I took it to heart. Every birth plan is really just a preference. Yes. Yeah. And they will do everything they can to honor it. Yeah. But at the end of the day, as long as it is within the bounds of like what medically is best. they would support it. And I didn't know what was like, I didn't know that, you can say you don't want Pitocin or you didn't want, know, whatever that might be, like as least medical intervention as possible. I didn't know any of that. didn't have a lot of friends that had gone through pregnancy. I was the second person in our friend group in Denver to have been pregnant. So the only person I could text was my girlfriend, Jenna. And Jenna was also the one that I was talking about peeing. Jenna gets all the details. got all the details. And she was also the one that was so amazing and just following up to make sure that I was OK. She's good friend. Yeah, she was an amazing friend. And she still is. her husband and her were the ones that came and picked up the dogs from the Airbnb. we had to like, hey, we think we're in labor. We're heading to the hospital. Could you grab the dogs? We also stole the towel. Don't tell them we'll replace it. Yeah, don't tell the Airbnb people. I did send her a note and she's like, it's fine. Exinuating circumstances. It's not a big deal. Yes. I think she was like, ⁓ they're from Ikea or something. yeah, like I didn't have a lot of friends I could ask. And I didn't, you you hear things in books and you hear things on blogs. And nowadays it's social media and TikTok. Instagram, you don't know what feels right or real. And that's where like having a community and a mom group is really important to that. 100%. And yeah, it just, especially when I didn't have that at the time and when I was going in and feeling really not alone, like I had an, obviously my husband's incredible and so supportive, but he's not experiencing birth. Right. And he's never been through it before. Yeah. And the sciatica and the back pain and when you asked about how my labor was, and he could only see that. He's not witnessing it. He's not, hey, I'm going hold your hand and squeeze as hard as you want. That's the most you can do. Give me encouraging words or give me space. I was a space person. Don't touch me. ⁓ So yeah, it was really interesting to have that. But going back to. the experience of birth. I remember we got the epidural and he was a master of his craft. it was, I mean, he placed it perfectly and he says, hey, minutes, call me. ⁓ And gonna check on you hopefully in the 25. And sure he came around on the dot and he's ⁓ doing the whole flick, flick, tap, tap. ⁓ And... I was able to move around. ⁓ that's great. I could move my legs. he's the place where it mattered. Yeah. It wasn't, like, it didn't hurt. That's great. Yeah. He also reminded me to root history chicken myself. Yes. To spread it around. Yes. People don't talk about that very often. ⁓ Someone talked about it recently, how her care team forgot to tell her that. And so only one side of her body ⁓ got the epidural, and the other side. didn't. yeah, so rotisserie chicken, I like that. Yes. no one tells you that. No one tells you in the care team. And that was what I loved, that he was very in tune with, hey, here, it's going to take 25 minutes. Press this as much as you want. If it's still not working after you press it and the 30 minutes have passed, we'll make sure that it's placed correctly and all that, because everyone's body is a little bit different. He wanted to make sure that I felt comfortable enough to get up. But he said, obviously, don't get up on your own. Like, if you need to sit up and want to move or anything, ⁓ I ⁓ trust your husband to be able help that. ⁓ So it was a lot of autonomy. ⁓ so nice. Yeah, and you felt a of control over the things you could. ⁓ And going back to birth preferences, ⁓ leaving rest to ⁓ what? you know, whether your body was taking over or, hey, this is the best thing for you and the baby. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a very precious of that. ⁓ that's awesome. Yeah. So it was 2 50 in the morning. And I remember looking to my husband, you know, sleeping on that little tiny couch, firm little sofa, tiny firm little sofa. He's six six. ⁓ my God. so he doesn't fit in most things. I'm picturing his legs hanging off the end of it. And then we're just like a quarter of his body. Yeah. Just not there. And I turned to him and I said, you need to go get the doctor or the nurse now. I feel like I have to poop. Yeah. That's a telltale sign. Number one sign. Yeah. And so he said, no problem. He walks out and he peeks his head out the door. And I'll always remember, she's got to poop. The lady comes in, she's laughing and she says, oh, it's not the first time. She goes, yep, you're ready. She says, time to start pushing. Wow. So you were feeling pressure. Yeah. I felt a ton of pressure. felt, you know, it was like back pressure too. Yeah. Okay. And because I had the epidural, it's this, it's unique. Yeah. Like it's a really, the best way to describe it is pooping. Yeah. Yeah. So I did. And so I pushed for 30 minutes. And he came out and he was five pounds, five ounces, which I think also contributes to not having as much in labor pains. That's true. Smaller head, smaller body. because it was NICU, it was a full NICU team. They were waiting there. There probably was like 10, 15 people in the room, like way more than I imagined. Right, or expected. Yeah. Yeah. And I was so. that I was able to see the OB that delivered, so the OB that delivered my son was the one that I first met when I went to their practice. And you know how like an OB practices, they have you rotate through. And you're really not sure who you're gonna get. You have no idea, unless even you go through a concierge service, but even then it is very dependent on whether there's another birth that's happening. So you hope and you can again plan for all you want, but sometimes it just doesn't happen. Yeah, totally. It's nice when it works out like that though. ⁓ it's great when it works out like that. So he came and he was born with the cutest, brightest blue eyes. He didn't make a sound though. you have this, or I had this idea in my head that all babies cry when they first come out and they make this wail or the scream. And he just mewed kind of like a cat. And I remember asking, is he OK? Because he was early. And I remember when he finally came out and they put him on my stomach and chest, I remember thinking, that's it? It was just so, I felt like I had not been pushing for that long. Yeah, 30 minutes is pretty short for a first baby. It is. And I also thought, I felt like I this whole pregnancy, you're like leading up to this moment of all this joy and like you hear stories about how your heart leaps out of your chest. And that didn't happen for me. And I was really sad at first because in that moment I was just like, I thought that I was gonna have this like magical moment with my son, my first child. And don't get me wrong, I love my kids. I adore them. They're the best thing. besides my husband that have happened to me. And I'm so grateful that I get to build a family with my husband in this. But in that moment, I was like, this is kind of like anticlimactic. And definitely relate to that. Yeah. it's almost like you feel guilty for that because I think that maybe it's social media or whatever it might be that the world tells you. Right. that being a parent is the most important job and like you- the most beautiful and gratifying and- Yes. And I thought to myself, I had the easiest pregnancy and I'm so grateful for that, but that's it. Yeah. And it almost like when all the nurses go away and they put you in the post-op room, it's like everything quiets down and there is this moment where it's just you and your family and it becomes really sweet. and it quiets down. And I think that to me was more special than the moment he came out. Yeah, I definitely understand that. I think I felt that way with my first, for sure. ⁓ I think it can be for various reasons. Like with mine, think it was because his birth was a little bit long and drawn out and a little traumatic. And so I think I was just relieved when he was born. yeah, thank you for speaking about that. Because I do think that there is definitely this perception that it's going to be magic and you're going to instantly be obsessed with your baby and all those things. And it doesn't always happen that way. And that's okay. Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for sharing that. And I think that it doesn't make your love any less. No, definitely not. The obsession came later. ⁓ yes. There was one time where ⁓ I don't remember who told me this. It was a random lady probably at a coffee shop. I'm the queen of like making random friends at places that I go. ⁓ it probably annoys my husband immensely, but I love it. It makes for a great podcast guest. Amazing. But I remember is at a coffee shop is back in Denver late in my trial, like my third trimester and lady said, you know, how many weeks long are you? And it was very clearly pregnant. So it wasn't one of those offending, like, did she just gain a lot of weight or is she pregnant? I know the taboo question. Yeah. And I told her that it was a great pregnancy, but I really wasn't sure about. the fourth trimester, the newborn phase. I had heard a lot of horror stories, right? And I had already struggled with insomnia and pre-pregnancy. And so during pregnancy, it was horrible. And it was like maybe two to three hours of sleep. ⁓ my God. Yeah, was rough. And there's not much you can do about it. So I said to her, I'm just having a really hard time thinking about. what that future is going to look like. And she paused and she looked at me and she had the sweetest smile. And she said, everyone has a favorite season and your children are just like different seasons. There will be some seasons you love and some seasons you just kind of get through. And she said, this may not be your season, but you're going to look back at some point and realize this is that moment. And I think that was true for my son. The first year, was rough. We moved to Atlanta when he was nine weeks old. Oh my God, I don't know how you did that. Oh, we shouldn't have punt anyone. We sold a house, we moved across country, he had torticollis, we did PT, OT, craniosacral therapy because he was just so tight, he tongue ties and lip ties and we weren't getting sleep. battle refused. He was exclusively breastfed for 14 months. With the tongue tie and lip tie. ⁓ my gosh. It was the worst case scenario, but I remember feeling a lot of guilt because I thought, this what like child, know, newborn fourth trimester, is this what it's going to be like for any future kids? And I always went back to what that lady said. was like, this just might not be your season. Yeah. That's a beautiful way to put it. I remember, I think what was so much better for me about the second baby was knowing that those seasons would end. I remember with the first feeling like, am I ever going to be able to take a shower again without the monitor? Am I ever going to be able to do this? Am I ever going be able to, is it ever not going to be scary to pack them up and get in the car by myself? And when it's your first, you just don't know that those seasons are actually pretty short. And so with the second for me, just emotionally, mentally, it was so much easier going into it knowing that they would end. know? A thousand percent. And that's exactly what happened with my second. So we knew we ready. We wanted to have about a two year gap between the two at a minimum. And I thought we really struggled to get pregnant with our first. And I ended up going on medication for I'm getting pregnant and it took two cycles and boom, had my son. What medication was it? Like a progesterone? So I did progesterone for one month. And then I did clemen. Which has apparently a high propensity for twins. So they told me that. The nurse said, oh yeah, she says, do you have a family history of twins? Yes. Are you 100 % sure you want to do this? Yes. You do have a family history of twins? yes. But I knew I wasn't ovulating. I could just feel it in my body where I wasn't having that. And they had run tests. And they said, you know what? No harm, foul. You've been trying for a year. Let's try it. ⁓ Immediately. So yeah, in my head, I thought it was going to take us a while to get pregnant with the second. That was not the case. I feel like I hear that story all the time. I hear it too. And I also tell people the opposite, where it's like, hey, maybe you are pregnant really quick with a first, and maybe it didn't happen the same way. That's OK. I the moral of story is every single pregnancy, every single birth is different. Like conception, know, everything. It's always different. I mean, that is the perfect way to describe it because that's exactly what happened my second. Yeah. horrible morning sickness. I had to get on medication to help with the morning sickness. I was taking it every day. I didn't show until 26 weeks because I wasn't eating anything. I couldn't stomach anything. ⁓ my God. That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, it was bad. And I remember thinking how... Could I ever, how could anybody ever want more kids if this was what they experienced the first time? Cecilia is my daughter in color, Cece. ⁓ was a vastly different pregnancy. And my son had no concept or understanding that I was pregnant. Now he loves his baby sister and it's the cutest thing. But I remember he'd climb on my stomach and just, you know. launch himself off. But it's just another jungle gym. Exactly. Like another boulder in his mind. Right. So she was just different. And I remember when we were doing the ultrasounds and they, she, she was measuring fine, but she was always breach. she had never flipped. So right around that halfway point, they were like, well, she's moving from side to side and we see her kind of twisty-turvy, but we don't. see any reason why she can't move and she's got clearly enough fluids in there and she has enough space. Even though it didn't feel like there was space externally. And they said that's also normal and common because your body already knows how to shift your internal organs. That might've been the case. But I wasn't showing. So fast forward and it was the 32 week appointment and they did another ultrasound because I had asked if they could check because my first was early. And when you're early, their first pregnancy and you have a NICU baby, you automatically go high risk. Okay. So I was high risk and considered high risk. Okay. When I went in again, they said, yep, no problem. We'll order another ultrasound. We'll check you again because what they're looking for is a shortening of the cervix. Okay. So it's like thinning out. Yeah. Thinning out, shortening, anything that's giving an indication that you're getting closer to labor. And that's normal in your last trimester. but they want to see from a percentage basis where you are. And I have apparently a very long cervix, which also I think is contributing to like how she was breaching all of that. And they checked and they said, yeah, like you're on normal ranges, no reason for concern, but she's still breach. So I did everything, ⁓ spinning babies, inversions, handstands, moxibustion. acupuncture. Yeah. Chiropractor. did. mean, what is Moxibustion? I don't know. So Moxibustion is an acupuncturist method ⁓ where they burn a little like mugwort essentially. Okay. Or it's something like that. They burn this little kind of looks like a cigar against your outer pinky toe. Okay. And you do it multiple times a day. Does it hurt? No, it just feels like a hot flame against your pinky toe and you hold it there for a little bit. And the idea is it's supposed to supposedly stimulate a baby wanting to flip. Okay. Did not happen. That's a first. I've not heard that one. Yeah. And I remember this lady, little kooky, and she said, ⁓ I have no qualm. Your baby's absolutely going to flip. It'll be fine. And I remember like, I just thought, Oh, I could do everything to get this baby to flip. Yeah. And she just wasn't moving. we went to the 34 week appointment and to do one more open sound and they're like, yeah, she, she's done. head down and at this point we're gonna either have to do an ECV so they have they basically you know you go in for an outpatient and they try to flip the baby from the outside you know give you an epidural and then they massage them up and they do a manual flip and it works 50 % of the time yeah and I thought you know what last ditch because in my head we talked about birth preferences I really didn't want to see section yeah I was able to deliver vaginally. had an amazing delivery with my first and I was devastated at the thought of having to do a C-section because it's, I wanted to have that magical, not birth, but the moment where it's quiet. I always really cherished that. And my husband was really supportive. He was very sweet about the entire thing and said, no matter what, like we're going to get through it. We totally understand. Where I was coming from. So we went in and she was like, yeah, not flipping. So we scheduled the inversion for that Saturday. And I was going to go into the north side and like have them try to flip them. And they have you come to the hospital because correct me if I'm wrong, there's a, there's a risk that you might go into labor. It might stimulate labor. Exactly. There's a higher risk and even higher because I had already had an early term baby. So I was right at that cusp where They were worried that I was definitely gonna go into labor after 100 % So that was on Monday. Okay, Tuesday the following day. I Was planning on getting dinner with my girlfriend. I was devastated. So I was going to have a nice like, good cry with her. You know, she's also a mom. She's one of my best friends. And Allie and I go to dinner and that entire day I had been feeling off. And she was exactly 36 weeks because it was a 36 week appointment. And I thought to myself, like at 30, I think seven weeks is when they schedule a scheduled C-section so that you don't go and kind of pass that. So the ECB was last ditch and that was when we scheduled C-section. So I looked to her and I was like, I just don't feel great. And we went to this, this bless this restaurant. It was a soft open and we were really excited about trying this Thai food. And it was quiet. We had the five o'clock dinner reservation and I looked to her and I remember thinking to myself in my head, I think I'm going to throw up all over this table if I don't run. And I said the words that came out with, I do not feel good. I'm so sorry. And I stood up and I ran to their bathroom. I didn't make the bathroom. ⁓ This poor restaurant, my vomit was all over their walls, on the floor, on the bathroom stall. I mean, it looked like an exorcism happened from the start of their bathroom all the way through. And I felt horrible for them because I thought they're having a soft open and I am that person. Well, it makes it memorable. Yeah, I have not gone back. You're like, can't show my face. I cannot show my face. And I remember the manager comes over and she says, do we need to call? Yeah. Like an ambulance, because I am very clearly pregnant. And I said, no, no, I'm fine. I just need water. And as I'm saying this, I'm like, ugh. and I'm offering to clean up. I'm like, give me a mop, give me a broom. I'm like on my hands and knees and ladies just tell me, she's like, please don't. just, maybe just go home. Yeah, maybe leave. Maybe just leave. Leave. And I go back as they went to grab my girlfriend and they said, ma'am, your friend's not feeling great in the bathroom. Like, do you want to go help her? And she takes one look at me. She goes, nah. She says. She doesn't want me right now. I think she's good. And she's totally right. I did not want anyone near me. She's a good friend. She knew you. She knew me, right? Like, you know, some people want someone to hold their hair. That's not me. You're like, nope, don't look at me. Don't talk to me. Yep. Just leave me in my sorrows. So she is sitting there and I finally get back. And she's like, do you want me to call Ted, my husband? And I was like, no, no, I'll just text him what's going on. And we're like 20 more minutes into this. had rice. That was the only, it was rice and water. And we get to the end of it and I said, I'm so sorry. Like we're gonna have to box this up and I've got to go. And I texted my husband and he says, you're not driving. I'm going to come pick you up. So he drags my poor two year old son into the car. Cause it's right around bedtime now. And I'm in the car and I am puking. Constantly I couldn't hold water down. I couldn't hold like he had given me a piece of gum to just kind of keep the saliva going I couldn't I was it was awful and my poor son is in the back of the car and he is hearing me Yeah, you know his he's in his car seat and he just starts crying because he knows something is wrong Yeah, and you know, it's hard that was the first time he had ever seen mom. Yeah or dad not be okay Yeah, that's tough. Yeah, and it's just it was one of those ⁓ no moments. So we climbed, got into bed, all of us together. And we cuddled as I took some medication. I called the nurse's line. And it felt like I had flu-like symptoms, but no fever. So when we called, she said, as long as you're not having a fever, you're OK. If you can't hold water down after another hour, then come in. So I thought to myself, OK, let me see if I can suck on some ice cubes and sip some water. And then I'll go to sleep. And it'll be all better. Maybe it's just food poisoning. ⁓ When ⁓ my husband, we put my son to ⁓ my husband finally falls asleep. It's right around nine o'clock and laying and I finally feel like I can just my feet up. I'm not feeling nauseous anymore. ⁓ The meds had worked. ⁓ and I felt this giant movement. And her head had always been on my, right underneath my left rib cage. I'd always remember that was where her head was. And I could feel her head move to the right side of my body, almost like she was trying to make this giant turn. And then a pop, a snap, and like a giant gush. And my water had broken. And I remember saying, ⁓ shit. really, really loudly to my husband. And he wakes up, he goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And I said, my water just broke. And he immediately went into, okay. And so we called our nanny. So she lives in Cumming and we're in Alpharetta. She immediately drives down. And in my head, all I could think of was, I don't know if she's gonna be able to get here in time because my first birth was so fast. So we're gonna call our neighbor. And he's retired. Him and his wife are lovely. And so we call our neighbor over and we said, can you just come and sit? You know, Henry's asleep, but if you can just be here when the nanny gets here, we'd really appreciate it. And she knows how to take care of everything. Cause she's helped us with overnights. Sure. No problem. So he comes over immediately and we get in the car and we get to the hospital 20 minutes after my water breaks. moved fast. I remember my husband being like, do I need to speed? And I was like, no, no, it's okay. And it was like 9 20. And I remember having contractions. I started timing them every two and a half minutes. That is fast. Very fast. Fast ramp. Super fast ramp with no indication whatsoever because the day before I had gone into the OB and everything was normal. And they had checked you the day. Did they do a cervical exam? No, because they didn't want to induce anything. So they deliberately said no. Yeah. But when they did the ultrasound, they said that there was enough room and there wasn't any thinning. Yeah. So they didn't have any reason to believe that. So we get there and we were the second people in line. We were the only two couples in the waiting room. Wow. It's rare for Northside. Super rare. And so in my mind, I thought, OK, well, like, you know, we'll be triaged and it'll be fine. you know, they'll get us back there and we'll be business as usual. Right. And in my mind, at this point, We knew we were going to have a C-section. Yeah. We just, there was no if, buts about it. She was still breeched. Yeah. Like, maybe she had turned, but I just knew in my heart that that wasn't happening. Had you considered exploring a breech vaginal birth at all? There's only one doctor here that doesn't. Yeah. And because I had already been high risk, I don't think I ever would have been considered. OK. Because they, you know, who knows? I thought about it. Yeah. I did. Which is ironic because it's It didn't have a breach delivery, but it was close to it. Yeah, you almost didn't get a choice. I almost didn't get a choice. And so we go in, and the couple in front of us gets triage first because they probably were having the worst time of their life. They had low fetal movement. And I remember this woman was devastated. You could just see how gutted she was. And then I come in and like active labor. They, you know, it's a small enough waiting room, like that area. So there's maybe like four rows or so. And they're just listening to me as I am laboring for a full 40 minutes. They did not bring me back until I cried to my husband. I am like, my contractions like a minute and half apart at this point. And I remember saying to him like, you need to go get a doctor or a nurse now. And you told them right when you got there, you were breached. We called. We called ahead. We told them. We said, breach and early. So all of the markers of, we need to get this person back. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then finally, he goes to the lady again. And he's like, we're not taking no for an answer. You need to bring her back. And the nurse comes back. And she looks at me. She puts me in the wheelchair. And she's like, I'm not allowed to run, but we're going to get there as fast as we can. Because she realizes how bad it is. But she's only in charge of like, putting me in the wheelchair. They put me in the triage room and another 15, 20 minutes passed. And at this point I am crying because I could feel that she was moving very fast. And I'm begging them, like begging the nurses, could you please check me again? Could you please look again? They hadn't even checked how many centimeters it was. So wasn't even could you check me again? was just could you check me? And like there was, it was so slow. And yes, time moves differently when you're in labor. It can be fast, it can be slow. But it wasn't even adrenaline at that point. It was genuine panic. And my husband was panicked too ⁓ he felt helpless. We both felt helpless. ⁓ when I finally said to the lady, before you leave, if you don't check me, I will scream. And I will cry. And she kind of looked at me. She's like, OK. She goes down there, and she merely says, you're seven or eight centimeters. And what I didn't know at the time was when you're that far and you progress that fast, you go straight into what is most likely a general anesthesia, which is when they knock you out and put you under. And when you're under general, you're inundated. And generally, your partner's not with you. But I think they didn't want to panic me, and they didn't want to create any anxiousness. But even when they knew that, they didn't move very quickly. And so was like 10, 20, so an hour and 20 minutes after my water had broken, I begged them to check me again. And I still, at this point, they were still trying to put my IVs in. And the lady comes back, and she just says, those are feet. She's like, I feel feet. It's not what you want to hear. Not what you want to hear. And also, what do you do with that information? I know. Yeah. You're like, I told you I'm having this baby. It's up to you guys now to do the right thing. Right. And I've heard such wonderful and amazing things about how they've run their operations. I mean, they call it a baby factory. But I've heard a lot of that. And so in my mind, because it was my second baby, ⁓ but a new hospital, I didn't know what their protocol was. So it almost felt like you're going through birth for the first time again. You don't know the practice, you don't know the area, you don't know the people. Turns out they couldn't find my OB. They don't know where the on-call OB was. They never ended up telling me what happened. I don't know. I asked after and they said that they just, they have notes that she was a double footling breach and... She came out via emergency C-section, but we'll get to that. So they never found your OB? The person that ended up starting me was not my OB. It was the hospitalist. That's how fast it was. ⁓ So when they realized that her feet were out, the lady says, you're going to be very popular. And she pressed the button above my bed. And my husband says it probably was 25 people. He says, I have never seen more panicked rushing faces. into the room all at once. And he says, it was a quiet night. And he says, I remember it being a quiet night because when we were walking past the OR, because you walk through, I guess, where all these rooms are. And he said it was silent. And he remembers just how much of a flurry it was. And someone says, why didn't someone else grab us? Did you know that she's brave? They're all talking to each other, trying to figure it out. Where's her OB? We can't find her. Someone page her again. All this chaos is going on around me. In the meantime, I looked to the other nurse and I said, I have to poop. And you and I both know it's not poop. And she looks and she's like, she's ready. This baby's going to come out. And so she's on the bed and she's holding her legs up. And they're saying, close your legs, close your legs. And if any woman knows. That pelvis is not closing. No. mean, you like literally, yeah, you know, it's not, it's not happening. No. Yeah. My body was going to do your body does whatever it Exactly. Your brain is not in control anymore. No. And I remember thinking like maybe hypnotherapy, like I'm going to breathe through this. And I had a really high pain tolerance as evidenced by my first. And I even said to them, I was like, I'm really trying hard. I'm sucking it in. I'm like, practicing my pelvic floor, like therapy, like all this stuff. And they, they wheeled me back and they're like running me back at this point. And it was 10 40 because I looked up at the O R time cause there's a clock in the O R and I remember thinking, ⁓ my God, it's only been 20 minutes. And I was so panicked because my husband wasn't there. I kept him like, where is he? Like, is someone going to update him? Like what's happening? You know, and they're like draping me. They've got a scalpel out. Like this hospitalist who I've never met before comes in and he's like, hi, I'm doctor. Don't remember his name. ⁓ I'm going to be doing your Z-section today. And you know, we've got you, you're okay. They couldn't take my jewelry off. So I had come in with like, you know, I have a ton of sprays. I had my earrings and my wedding ring. They couldn't take it off because it was so fast. And they even said to the lady who was trying to take my jewelry off. Just leave it. Just leave it. And I remember gripping this lovely nurse's hand. And I'm holding onto her. And I'm squeezing her. And the doctor ended up yelling at her, saying, we need all the hands that we can get to help with whatever it was. And she looks to the man. And she says, I'm not letting go of this woman's hand, because I'm the only person in this room that is here just for her. And I still think I'm so grateful for that woman. an angel. Yeah, I mean, truly like an angel in a horror situation. And I remember when she was holding my hand, she's like, I got you. And she's like, what's your husband's name? And I said, Ted. And she says, I'm going to go. I'm going to personally get to, I'm going to go talk to Ted because I'm going to be here through the whole thing. And just like having that sense of security in a really vulnerable time. I hope that everyone has. someone like that in their life that they can, whether it's through that experience or hopefully in that snow and I also experienced. And just like to this day, I like get teary eyed, like thinking about how sweet that was. So she held my hand and then the anesthesia hall just comes in. She goes, you're going to go night night. You're going to go night night. You're going to feel great. You're going to go to night night. Take some deep breaths because they had to put me out. Yeah. And at that point you were like, were you like, what do you mean night night? Like you still didn't know. I had no idea. In my mind, up until this moment, I thought that they were going to give me a general blow. I don't know what that meant. Because when they said when they're going to call the anesthesiologist, you think an epidural. Right, because they do epidurals too. Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, no, we're going to have to put you out. And I remember saying, I will do anything to make this stop so that you can do your job. So the lady didn't have to keep holding the legs up. As she says, you're going to go night night, we wrap, like I say to her, okay, great. I'll take some repress. And I look over and the lady looks down at my hand and she yells to the OR, everyone stop. And I could hear a pin drop and actually a tray had dropped at that point. was like a scalpel tray had dropped and everything. And she said her IVs are out. Like her IVs have fallen out. When did they fall out? So they don't know how long, right? Like I didn't have fluids or whatever that was, which probably makes a lot of sense. They're like, why is she like going this crazy? And at that was the last thing I remember. I was at 1041 and then, um, and they couldn't let your husband back. Cause you're intubated. They couldn't let him back. They didn't tell him that he couldn't come back until they brought him to the OR doors. They bunnies him up, you know, cap and everything. And they brought him to the doors and they said, we're so sorry. You're going to have to sit here on this chair. Like a really uncomfortable, like one of those like hospital chairs, not comfortable. And he had to listen to everything through the doorway, which, yeah. And I, I think back and I think that was the thing that I was so sad about, not about my experience and not about the lack of urgency or, you know, maybe someone else was having a really, really rough. Yeah, you know something was more serious going on. Yeah But more so that he lost out on that really pivotal time where neither of us were there for our daughter's birth And he was alone too. Like I'm picturing him just sitting there like by himself and it's been so hard He was completely alone. He said no one came to check on him They he said it was he has a video on his phone where it's 1051, which is when she was born and he hears a cry. Yeah And then it was silence and probably 15, 20 minutes later, they wheeled the baby out. So, and they just said, okay, here's your daughter. And they like put her in that little like cot thing and they walked out and they just said, they're like, we're going to close your wife up. And, um, she did great. And we're going to wheel her to post-op and then that was it. And so they wheeled me to post-op. I want to say I came to like two o'clock in the morning. Yeah. It's quite a while. Is that a normal amount of time? I don't know. For me it felt like a long time. Yeah. But like three hours basically. Yeah. And they said that they would come in to check on the baby, but they told him, just like, let us know when she wakes up. Yeah. Yeah. And then when I finally woke up, they, then they wheeled me to recovery, post recovery, like labor and delivery. That was, mean, from that point, it was just like, we needed to leave. We had the worst experience. what they don't tell you about crash C-sections, which is what I had when it's less than 15 minutes from when they cut you up and the baby's out. It is a brutal recovery. ⁓ absolutely brutal because they are doing it as fast as possible and they do not care. And nor should they. They're trying to do it in the fastest, ⁓ safest way. ⁓ And I was crying, I was in so much pain and they forgot to take me to the bathroom because they take your catheter out and do the whole thing and you're supposed to go pretty quickly and try. It was seven hours from when they took my catheter out to when I had to go to the bathroom and my bladder was filling and filling and filling and it was pressing on my incision. And to the point where I started screaming and crying because every time They said they would come, oh, we'll come to you at nine o'clock. It was 10, 10 a.m., no one had come. Sorry, we got really busy. We'll come to you in another hour. Then it was 12 p.m. And so it, I finally got to the bathroom and I fainted on the toilet. Oh my God. Because they just forgot about me. And you know, my husband was devastated, right? Because he didn't get any sleep. He was seeing how much pain I was in, like no one was taking it seriously. We're like the fastest we can get out of here, the better. So it was just really rough. And so you have these two very different experiences where everything's magical and wonderful with your first, and then it's like bittersweet. Like not only did I not get to have the birth that I originally wanted, I had a birth that didn't go anyone's plan. And part of me wonders like was it my fault right? Where like did did I not speak up enough? But it's not true. No, absolutely not. Yeah, and I also think that there must like I want to give them grace too Because who knows what was happening in the background that I wasn't aware of. Right. It's very generous. Yeah. I mean, you're right. Regardless, I hate that that Even if there was something more serious happening, I hate that that was your experience. mean, gosh. Yeah. And we always debated on whether we wanted two or three kids. And we are probably going to have to give it some time to figure out if going through that possibility, because my OB was like, you just cook them early. Yeah. Like, it's official. Yeah. You have kids early. Yeah. And I'm OK with that. I'm OK giving it time. And my therapist has been lovely and amazing. Huge, huge fan. ⁓ I'm a huge fan of therapy. Mental health, pre-pregnancy, post-pregnancy, just in general in life. Absolutely. Yeah. So critical. Yeah. So yeah, we give it some time. And he says, you know what? You get to reassess. He says, right now, the answer is no. Yeah. He says, but maybe it becomes a maybe. Yeah. And we can talk through that. And I went through, I didn't know that I had PTSD. But I figured that out when I was going to, in Atlanta we have Circle Moms. And I was going to a Circle Moms group. on my way, I had to the connector exit that you take to get to Northside at the hospital. And I got on that exit. And I started having full-blown panic. Just the feeling in your chest where. like, you know, you're anxious and you can feel this pit and this ball climbing up out of you and then shaking and feeling like I can't stop my heart rate, like all of those feelings. I was, and that was the moment where I said, I need to go and talk to my therapist about this. And so there's a period of time where I didn't go back to that exit because like all of it would come flooding back. But then he said something really lovely. He says, go with your family. and your husband and do your favorite things that morning and go grab your coffee and go to the playground that's around the corner. And he says, I want you to re like reclaim, reclaim that energy and that space that took so much from you and be comfortable that you don't get to rewrite history, but you get to at least say, this is not how my story ends. ⁓ that's beautiful. And so I did. We went and we, there's a little playground in that area. And then we went to Target after. Love it. Perfect day. Perfect day. And it was a nice kind of like, ⁓ like I felt really good about that. so in a really awful experience and something I hope that no one ever experiences knowing that like, Hey, you're not alone. And also like you can claim that back. Yeah. almost like you've saged the spirit, you know? Yeah, it's just like, you know what? And it's not even diminishing what happened. It's just more of saying, you know what? I can accept that that's what happened, not the way I want it to go. It's okay. Wow. Well. So that brings me to the end of my two out of two. Oh my goodness. Two very, very different births, except for that they were both pretty fast. Yes. But that is absolutely wild. Yeah. And then, so what was your recovery like with? with the C-section. You know, I think anybody who has a C-section and has a toddler can attest to how brutal it is. they say, don't pick up anything more than 10 pounds. And you're going, what? Yeah. My child is running and launching himself off things. it was a rough recovery. And I think that was mostly because they tell you that general C-section recovery is like you, they try to do general in that area. but I ended up having to get morphine and they ended up sending me prescription home with morphine. So it that and Tylenol, you know, filtering between the two and cycling them. It took about a month for me to feel like I didn't twinge. And I still have a really, really wide scar. So most C-section scars are pretty small. Mine spans from my pelvis to my hip. Wow. Was that because of the urgency of it? ⁓ Yeah, it was because of urgency. ⁓ Now my OB did make it to close. Okay. Better late than never. Better late than never. So she did make it to close. So like it healed really well. It was obviously very bruised. The bruising was brutal. It looks like I got sucker punched. Yeah, I remember my son wanted to jump on me. I'm like, please don't. Yeah. And I didn't realize that C-sections take a long time to heal. They do. Even when you can start moving around again and doing fairly normal things. mean, it's major abdominal surgery. Yeah, and we don't have family here. ⁓ my goodness. So it was rough. The recovery was really, really rough. Yeah. My husband took time off of work. I was going to say. Yeah. we, you know, and my, my work was so understanding. That's awesome. I remember texting my boss saying, Hey, and HR, Hey, water broke. Don't think I'm going to be at work tomorrow. I work remotely, but like, don't think I'm going to be at work online tomorrow. And they both were so sweet. Like we got it. Wish you luck. Yeah. Hope you have a healthy baby. So, ⁓ my God. But the recovery was interesting. Yeah. So I'm like, I feel great now. I started working out and ⁓ bounce. I hate the phrase bounce back, but I felt like got my pink. Like I felt back to myself. Somewhat. Yeah. Relatively faster than my first. Okay. And I think part of it is I had the confidence I never had with my first. Yes. Yes. So much of it is mental. Yes. And the village. Yeah. I created a village. Yeah. And I had people who reached out and it wasn't just dropping off meals, but just checking in on me. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, my friends that are pregnant now, I always think to say like, are you, how are you doing? Yes. You know, we always talk about the baby and how exciting it is and sprinkles and showers, but I always think it's so important to make sure that mom is okay. I could not agree more. Um, I remember my sister-in-law telling me that when she had her first baby, her mom came and her mom came and was like, you're gonna take care of the baby and I'm gonna take care of you. Yeah. You know, and that's, right. Like people, you know, when you're pregnant, like you get so much attention and you're at this like amazing, you know, vessel for life and stuff. And then like you have the baby and then it's kind of like, Oh, guess mom's just chopped liver now. Like, you know, so that's very nice to see your friends and we're very like intentional about checking in on you. Absolutely. And You know, I'll be totally candid. My mom has, and I have had a very tumultuous relationship. And I think that, you know, I share this because my mom and I have had these ups and downs and peaks and valleys. And she was so, so, so excited to have the opportunity to come be with my daughter and like meet her really early on versus my son. Cause we had moved relatively quickly, right? So it was hard for us to coordinate all of that. And I remember having a ton of disappointment in the way that she showed up for me. And I shared that with her and I have since shared that with her. ⁓ it's amazing. Yeah. And I said to her, it doesn't diminish how much I love or appreciate the effort that it took for you to be here. But when I asked, and I also believe this is so true, it's okay to tell your friends and family, this is what I need. And if you're not able to do that, it's not the right time. Yeah. You have to set those boundaries. It's so hard, but it's so worth it in the long run. Yes, we had a list in Denver. Someone said they wanted to come over. We literally had a list that said, like, you can help us pack, move, know, donate, whatever. Yeah. Absolutely none of it on the list was Hold Our Baby. Yeah. And that was the village that I think everyone needs. And it's really hard to do that, too. It is. Because it feels like you're disappointed. I felt like I was disappointing. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, when my mom came, I was really hopeful that it was going to be helpful. she was gonna be able to take care of me. And it didn't shake out that way. It doesn't mean that she's incapable of doing that. But what it did teach me in that moment was there are other ways that I can seek that. And my husband and I need to pay for that village. So we have an incredible nanny who's like an extension of our family. We're so grateful to her. We have amazing neighbors. We... we still prioritize doing date nights. We have one tonight. Oh, good. Yeah. So we made sure to continue to date each other and do all those things that are just for us, that we can be the best parents possible for our kids. Because we don't have family out here to do the babysitting or watch our kids at night. Yes. And that's OK. And there's no shame in that. No. And like you said, you've created your own village. And sometimes that's just how it goes. And my friend and I have this term we call Framily. Friends who are family. you find those people and they become a different, almost not more special type, but because you choose them. Friends are the family you choose. Yes. And you know, that feels really significant. Like you're born into your family, but the friends that you choose to make family and like create those lifelong ⁓ relationships with, like there's something really special about that. Yes. And it's like, you are your closest five friends. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's so true. And we're so grateful, like, since moving to Atlanta, we have been met with open arms and so much love. And, you know, it was really scary moving out here with no friends and no family. And a newborn. And a newborn. And, getting pregnant again. I had just changed. I found out I was pregnant with my second the day after I quit my job and was about to start a new one. ⁓ my God. Talk about timing. Yeah, seriously. I was adamant that I wasn't pregnant. I had just gotten back from a company conference. Yeah. And if you know anything about company conferences, are not baby friendly. They are not baby friendly. And yeah, I just, oops. It happens. It happens. Yep. Yeah. So yeah, think it's just everyone's experience is different, but I think it's really OK to find your village. And I think it's so important to find your village. And you know what? You're going to strike out. Yeah, I know it's true. It's like dating. Yes, I was going to say like finding friends as an adult is like dating. Yeah. And it's funny people like, find it in a workout class. I think for moms, especially, it's even more difficult because what time do you have for yourself? Right. None. we have devoted. time to do that. So we pay for a babysitter to come every other week on a Friday. And we have one Saturday that we have six hours where our nanny comes so that we can just get stuff done. Yeah. That's so smart. ⁓ Just have it on the calendar. That's brilliant. And even if we don't have plans, we always figure out what to do. Yes. Yeah. And it's glorious. ⁓ I love that. Yeah. One time I went and dropped a bunch of stuff off at Goodwill. But it's the things that you just pile up as a parent, as a mom, as your partner. Yeah. and that you don't want to have to put your kids in the car to go drive to Goodwill. And it's just nice to do that by yourself. Yes. And they're like, you know, so yeah, exactly. So we just do a lot of that. And I think that that was one of the biggest learnings we had with from our first to our second as well. So we had this, you know, crazy pregnancy differences between the two, crazy birth differences between the two. But the one thing we remained constant is like how we show up for each other and how we showed up throughout each of those experiences. And for that, I'm just... love my husband even more. ⁓ I love that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories with me. so fascinating, so much fun to talk to you and hear about them and ⁓ I just really appreciate it. Well, thank you so much for having me, but ⁓ really appreciate it and hope that everything goes well. I've just been a big fan of what you're doing and think it's really important for people to share these. Thank you so much. Before you go, I always ask my guests to, describe birth in three words whatever comes to mind for you just like top right off the top of your head birth in three words ⁓ I feel like this is gonna be so different because of my both my kids. Yeah, I'm gonna do both of them in one. Okay Magical serendipitous and meaningful. ⁓ I love that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. Of course. You've been listening to the Rivals podcast. Until next time. Yay. Thank you. That was so wonderful.