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49. From Science to Systems: Exploring Leadership Through Constellation Work with Tim Dyke · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Kiona and welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm your host, Tracy Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators for and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy Cartwright: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Kia, everyone, welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Today I am very excited to have Tim Dyke join me.
• 0:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome, Tim.
• 0:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Great to be here.
• 0:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Tracy, uh, with my accent, it's probably, yeah, I know.
• 0:47
  Tracy Cartwright: We we're practicing calling you Tim, which is instead of you would be more accustomed to,
• 0:53
  Tim Dyke: instead of.
• 0:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Instead of Tim.
• 0:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Tim, Tim.
• 0:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, that's right.
• 0:57
  Tracy Cartwright: I respond to any name.
• 0:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, welcome to the co installations and all that.
• 1:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Generally, when I'm running, doing a podcast, I don't do a full introduction for people.
• 1:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Some, you know, guests, hosts do.
• 1:08
  Tracy Cartwright: But I'd love for you to introduce yourself and share a little bit about who you are, where you're from, and maybe a little bit about your background.
• 1:17
  Tim Dyke: Yep.
• 1:17
  Tim Dyke: Okay.
• 1:18
  Tim Dyke: So thanks Tracy.
• 1:19
  Tim Dyke: Um, so a little bit about myself.
• 1:21
  Tim Dyke: I live at the moment in Melbourne, Australia, also known as Warri Land.
• 1:27
  Tim Dyke: Unseed land and, uh, wanted to pay my respects to the elders on the land on which we meet both.
• 1:34
  Tim Dyke: Um, past and present.
• 1:35
  Tim Dyke: I grew up in Sydney, Australia, and I've had a very fortunate life, um, third child of a middle class family.
• 1:45
  Tim Dyke: Then, uh, started training as a veterinarian, moved to Melbourne, then moved over to the States to do some further study at the same time, got married, had had my daughter before we moved.
• 1:58
  Tim Dyke: And then, um, our son came when we were in Columbus, Ohio, in America.
• 2:04
  Tim Dyke: Um, was there for six years.
• 2:05
  Tim Dyke: Came back into government, um, into sort of regulatory agencies.
• 2:10
  Tim Dyke: So very, very science based.
• 2:12
  Tim Dyke: Mm. Um, and then had an opportunity, uh, just with a, from a casual conversation with a, um, colleague, um, around what I was going to do.
• 2:23
  Tim Dyke: Um, I had been offered a, well, offered a voluntary redundancy and, uh, from government and so decided that I'd go back and do a little bit more vet work.
• 2:34
  Tim Dyke: And then I do consultancy work.
• 2:37
  Tim Dyke: And because of this casual conversation, I was introduced to, uh, someone who was doing executive coaching.
• 2:44
  Tim Dyke: And so then got into, uh, executive coaching and, uh, now, uh, am selling executive coaching.
• 2:51
  Tim Dyke: So been in coaching for about 12 years and loving it, um, but also doing consultancy work in the research ethics sort of area.
• 3:03
  Tim Dyke: And chair a fair few committees and I'm on boards and things like that.
• 3:08
  Tim Dyke: So that's sort of me.
• 3:10
  Tim Dyke: And I got into Constellation work probably eight or so years ago.
• 3:16
  Tim Dyke: Uh, so I'm not in the family therapy or, or health field.
• 3:19
  Tim Dyke: And so my exposure to constellations has been through training in.
• 3:25
  Tim Dyke: Family constellations, but in fact a adjusting that to organizational and leader development and and leader coaching.
• 3:35
  Tim Dyke: So I was introduced in about 2017, um, to Constellation work with Vanessa Fudge, who I'm still working with.
• 3:42
  Tim Dyke: Um, she's a founder of Leading Well based in Sydney and she's an experienced family and organizational systemic constellation, um, expert.
• 3:52
  Tim Dyke: And I've worked with her since that time.
• 3:55
  Tim Dyke: Um, in coaching and leadership development, I also sort of at the same time, um, trained.
• 4:02
  Tim Dyke: With two good friends of mine, Joanna, Joan Byrne and San San Ecker, who run Pick Grove Equine Solutions.
• 4:12
  Tim Dyke: So they, they use horses in their constellations.
• 4:15
  Tim Dyke: And because I was a horse vet, it was really interesting to, to look at horses from a different perspective.
• 4:22
  Tim Dyke: And I also participated in constellation training that was facilitated by Margaret Kearney during that, that time.
• 4:30
  Tim Dyke: Yeah, so that's a bit about me and my connection with constellations.
• 4:33
  Tim Dyke: I can go into further, you know, my exposure to constellations since that time.
• 4:37
  Tim Dyke: But that's, that's a good start.
• 4:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Great.
• 4:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Great.
• 4:41
  Tracy Cartwright: So who did you initially train with?
• 4:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Was that Vanessa or,
• 4:44
  Tim Dyke: um, well really the sort of form, well I trained with Vanessa.
• 4:49
  Tim Dyke: She runs a leadership, um, leading human systems two day, um, well program of three days actually.
• 4:56
  Tim Dyke: And I participated in that.
• 4:58
  Tim Dyke: Um, and that got me.
• 5:00
  Tim Dyke: Seeing it really in action.
• 5:04
  Tim Dyke: Um, as a scientist, my first exposure to constellations was, no, this is woo woo.
• 5:09
  Tim Dyke: Um, not going there.
• 5:11
  Tim Dyke: Couldn't, couldn't explain it logically, but I've really changed my mind since being, um, since training in constellations and as a facilitator and also in experiencing it as a representative.
• 5:23
  Tim Dyke: So as a representative yesterday.
• 5:25
  Tim Dyke: For a quick con, internal sort of constellation within, within leading well, and then I went on, um, so I was exposed to the International Constellation Intensive in 2021, and then we met in 2023, um, Tracy in Sydney at the Constellation Intensive.
• 5:41
  Tim Dyke: And then I was also exposed to, uh, John Whittington.
• 5:46
  Tim Dyke: Um, and we did some internal training with him, um, which was.
• 5:50
  Tim Dyke: Great.
• 5:51
  Tim Dyke: Um, and also worked and trained with Young Yakob Star in the Netherlands and they apply, um, constellations and systemic, um, analysis, I suppose, in their courses.
• 6:04
  Tim Dyke: And the one that I did was on called Team Connect.
• 6:07
  Tim Dyke: And then I was, had an opportunity of English editing their Dutch book called Teams a Love Story.
• 6:15
  Tim Dyke: Um, and so, you know, just being.
• 6:17
  Tim Dyke: Around, around the field of constellations.
• 6:20
  Tim Dyke: Um, I, I realized the importance of trauma and lived experience in my coaching work.
• 6:27
  Tim Dyke: And it's interesting that in the coach training that I had, trauma was not mentioned.
• 6:32
  Tim Dyke: And now I see trauma and the importance of lived experience in how you think about yourself and your, um, work life in, in my context, um, as being incredibly important.
• 6:42
  Tim Dyke: So.
• 6:43
  Tim Dyke: I did a, um, an online course with Thomas Huble on Trauma Informed Leadership and yep.
• 6:49
  Tim Dyke: You know, he's very much into intergenerational trauma.
• 6:53
  Tim Dyke: I then went on and did the, um, uh, did a certificate course in Family and Systems Constellation and with International Family Constellations Training Institute and just recently, um, with you facilitating with two other wonderful facilitators, participated in a seven day yes to life retreat in Indonesia.
• 7:12
  Tim Dyke: So.
• 7:13
  Tim Dyke: The other, I suppose the other aspect of my life is in the veterinary training I was exposed to systems and the, the large, the work that we do in coaching and leadership development is largely around being more aware of our role.
• 7:29
  Tim Dyke: Within systems for, for example, in organizations, but also how family systems can, our experiences in family systems can be brought forward into, um, organizational, um, work.
• 7:41
  Tim Dyke: And so that's been fascinating and get getting into the principles of, uh, systemic work and constellations, for example, belonging and exchange and purpose and, um, order and looking, looking at those in a.
• 7:56
  Tim Dyke: In an organizational sense, and then to the extent possible trying to explore Constellation work to, to bring out those elements.
• 8:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 8:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 8:08
  Tracy Cartwright: I wanna jump back to something that you said before.
• 8:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, that you went from woo woo, and then next minute your training.
• 8:13
  Tracy Cartwright: How did that happen?
• 8:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Going from, oh, this is woo woo, and then I'm gonna train in it.
• 8:17
  Tracy Cartwright: How did that Yeah.
• 8:18
  Tracy Cartwright: I, I think it was,
• 8:19
  Tim Dyke: yeah, I, I think it was because of the.
• 8:23
  Tim Dyke: Trusting Vanessa, particularly in trusting Joanne and Zan and thinking there's something in this that I need to broaden my mind in.
• 8:32
  Tim Dyke: And having, having a scientific background, you are trained in scientific method and logic and analysis and data and proof, those types of things, and so it was quite challenging and I thought.
• 8:45
  Tim Dyke: You know what, I've just gotta explore this a little bit more.
• 8:48
  Tim Dyke: And so it was through that and it probably took a year or so for me to realize that there was something else that was outside of my mind.
• 8:59
  Tim Dyke: And I suppose in my coaching development, it was also that our minds are not the only things that we can tap into for intelligence.
• 9:08
  Tim Dyke: Um, and so getting into somatic coaching and, uh, the importance of heart and gut.
• 9:13
  Tim Dyke: And so those types of things really were, that was happening in parallel with the Constellation work and, and then, and I, I suppose I've.
• 9:25
  Tim Dyke: Been a largely spiritual person.
• 9:28
  Tim Dyke: Mm-hmm.
• 9:29
  Tim Dyke: But not necessarily, you know, I grew up in religion, but, but thought, no, there was more to me spiritually than religion.
• 9:36
  Tim Dyke: And then I suppose going down the science track, the spiritual side dropped off a little bit.
• 9:42
  Tim Dyke: That was all coming together over a few years.
• 9:46
  Tim Dyke: So that's where I moved from.
• 9:47
  Tim Dyke: Woo woo.
• 9:48
  Tim Dyke: To, um, uh, to, no, this, there's something in this, there's something in this.
• 9:53
  Tim Dyke: And the other part of this, which I've focused on because I'm not, I'm not doing this work from a family therapy point of view.
• 10:02
  Tim Dyke: Um, I'm largely doing it from a one-on-one coaching point of view and, um, workshops, those types of things explain, and having experienced the woowoo rejection of it, when I'm talking to clients or to people around this.
• 10:20
  Tim Dyke: I, I talk about spatial mapping rather than constellations and people, you know, people that are in the leadership field probably get that term a little bit better than they do constellations because a lot of people think about constellations as being astrology or something to do with the stars.
• 10:37
  Tim Dyke: So, so I focused in my constellation work.
• 10:41
  Tim Dyke: I've actually focused on.
• 10:43
  Tim Dyke: Thinking through and developing or, or trying to bring together um, the ways that we can use what is essentially constellation work, but use it on paper or with post-it notes or with inanimate objects.
• 10:59
  Tim Dyke: And that's immediately applied in a coaching conversation, for example.
• 11:04
  Tim Dyke: 'cause you can grab post-it notes or you can grab, if you're in a cafe, you can grab salt and pepper shakers and go, okay, this is you.
• 11:12
  Tim Dyke: You are the salt shaker.
• 11:13
  Tim Dyke: Your future is the pepper shaker.
• 11:16
  Tim Dyke: How close are you to it?
• 11:17
  Tim Dyke: You know, something like that.
• 11:18
  Tim Dyke: So you can play with inanimate object so people don't even realize.
• 11:22
  Tim Dyke: They're doing constellation work.
• 11:25
  Tim Dyke: Um, in doing that now, it's not, um, I've heard it described as, of course with constellations you can use human representation and that's sort of considered Rolls Royce, and this is probably more forward or Holden or Volvo or something at a, at a lesser level using inanimate objects.
• 11:42
  Tim Dyke: But it's very accessible.
• 11:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 11:45
  Tim Dyke: Um, and that, that, um, encourages me to keep developing in that field.
• 11:50
  Tim Dyke: It's also less.
• 11:52
  Tim Dyke: Scary for people to be using it.
• 11:55
  Tim Dyke: Mm-hmm.
• 11:56
  Tim Dyke: One of the great tools that John Whittington uses, um, I call it the eye resonating statement.
• 12:03
  Tim Dyke: And that's where, um, I'll give you the example of coffee 'cause that's how he uses it as an example, is.
• 12:10
  Tim Dyke: Putting, um, you might be in a, a training workshop and you put a coffee cup somewhere and you go, okay, that's coffee.
• 12:16
  Tim Dyke: Um, we wanna explore, explore your relationship to coffee.
• 12:20
  Tim Dyke: And so, and how we wanna do that is you put yourself in the room wherever you want to, um, as close as possible or as close as you want to, to the coffee cup.
• 12:31
  Tim Dyke: And then I want you to come up with an I statement, starting with I that resonates with you.
• 12:36
  Tim Dyke: Um, and I found that really interesting to use that.
• 12:39
  Tim Dyke: And that's just an example.
• 12:41
  Tim Dyke: So people get used to the concept of, oh yeah, you know, I don't, I don't like you at all.
• 12:45
  Tim Dyke: For example, for someone that's not a coffee drinker.
• 12:48
  Tim Dyke: Mm-hmm.
• 12:48
  Tim Dyke: And they may turn around and not even look at the coffee club.
• 12:51
  Tim Dyke: Cup Cup, someone may be come really close to the coffee cup and say, I depend on you.
• 12:57
  Tim Dyke: So they're sort of resonating statements and it gets people used to it.
• 13:00
  Tim Dyke: And then you might say, okay, we are now gonna apply that to leadership.
• 13:04
  Tim Dyke: So let's say that the coffee cup is now leadership.
• 13:07
  Tim Dyke: Where do you, where do you sit in relation to ship to leadership?
• 13:11
  Tim Dyke: I, that's one of the really critical constellation tools where people are encouraged to.
• 13:19
  Tim Dyke: Sense into the way they're feeling and go to gut rather than to analyze, oh, well I should be three feet away from the coffee cup outta the head and into the gut outta the head.
• 13:29
  Tim Dyke: And yeah.
• 13:30
  Tim Dyke: And it's getting, it's really getting into, into body.
• 13:34
  Tim Dyke: Um, and for a lot of people in, in the leadership field that they're not, even if they're starting to go into it, they're not.
• 13:41
  Tim Dyke: Um, used to it.
• 13:43
  Tim Dyke: The other, sorry.
• 13:44
  Tim Dyke: The other interesting thing, um, Tracy is that I once worked, when I was in government, I worked for an engineer and he had a experience with working with other veterinarians and he said, I love vets 'cause they understand systems and I didn't realize how closely.
• 14:01
  Tim Dyke: My training had aligned with this sort of work because Constellation work is doing systems work.
• 14:06
  Tim Dyke: Yeah.
• 14:07
  Tim Dyke: And, you know, allowing things to enter the field that you may not naturally realize or analytically realize that they should be there.
• 14:15
  Tim Dyke: And that I resonating statement is just a, a lovely exercise for me to gently introduce people to this sort of work.
• 14:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, well, it fascinates me.
• 14:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I've always been quite interested in the organizational or the systems side of things as well.
• 14:31
  Tracy Cartwright: I remember going, and I think Vanessa was part of this actually at one of the intensives, like 2014, 15 or something, and she did an exercise for those who were interested in.
• 14:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Uh, coming in, exploring a little bit around systems and, and I'm thinking, oh, I don't, I don't think I might been in any systems or organizations.
• 14:51
  Tracy Cartwright: And then we got talking about, um, you know, the business that you work in or the company or the school or the hospital or the, 'cause everything is a system.
• 15:02
  Tim Dyke: Mm. Isn't it?
• 15:02
  Tim Dyke: And we are systems in ourselves.
• 15:04
  Tim Dyke: We are human living.
• 15:05
  Tim Dyke: Human systems.
• 15:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Exactly.
• 15:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 15:08
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and it kind of was like, oh wow, that's just, yeah.
• 15:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Opened up another door of Yes.
• 15:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Awareness back then it was like, yes.
• 15:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, it was quite, uh, liberating actually.
• 15:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 15:20
  Tim Dyke: And the, the other thing that it helps me with is, is thinking around leadership and particularly men in leadership, which is a interest of mine around the how modernity, um, Western society has.
• 15:39
  Tim Dyke: Encourage the separation of individuals and that, uh, and science does the same thing.
• 15:46
  Tim Dyke: You go further and deeper and deeper into a subject.
• 15:50
  Tim Dyke: Um, you may focus your whole life on one cell, for example, but that's not how systems work.
• 15:57
  Tim Dyke: And it's fine to be that reductionist to an extent, but at some stage, you've gotta bring it back into the system because if you don't, you don't then understand.
• 16:07
  Tim Dyke: Why something is not working the way you predict it is if you are using a reductionist view.
• 16:13
  Tim Dyke: Um, now in veterinary medicine, that's obvious because there are systems within your body that are intimately linked with each other, reading each other.
• 16:23
  Tim Dyke: Um, and so, um, you know, the.
• 16:26
  Tim Dyke: The heart is responding to the end, the heart part of the cardiovascular system is responding to your endocrine system.
• 16:32
  Tim Dyke: Your immune system is responding to, um, what's happening in your gastrointestinal tract.
• 16:38
  Tim Dyke: And so it, that's just obvious things for me.
• 16:42
  Tim Dyke: And trying to apply that to, to a human system is fascinating.
• 16:46
  Tim Dyke: And then the human system as a community, um, and then bringing in the fact that there's also, um.
• 16:54
  Tim Dyke: Possibly through epigenetics, the experience of your ancestors, um, and how that may affect a human system.
• 17:03
  Tim Dyke: Um, and so, you know, what you see, for example, in an organization or a leader is not necessarily what they're influencing, that there are other influences that they may not be aware of.
• 17:16
  Tim Dyke: So that to me is critical systemic work.
• 17:19
  Tim Dyke: What could be happening here that is deeper or wider or more mysterious than what I'm actually seeing?
• 17:26
  Tim Dyke: Really lovely.
• 17:27
  Tim Dyke: Um, there's a, a great aboriginal, um, academic in Deacon University, Tyson Yunger Porter.
• 17:36
  Tim Dyke: He's written, um, sand Talk.
• 17:37
  Tim Dyke: I think he's just come out with another co-author book called Snake Talk.
• 17:41
  Tim Dyke: And he just, in a podcast unrelated to Constellations, he said.
• 17:46
  Tim Dyke: People are never angry about what they say and seldom angry about what they think.
• 17:51
  Tim Dyke: And that, that quote has stuck with me to show me that what is actually visual, um, visually and physically appearing is not what is actually going on for that person.
• 18:06
  Tim Dyke: It gives me, well, I, I, I think I've learned incredible compassion and curiosity when someone says something to go.
• 18:15
  Tim Dyke: Wow.
• 18:15
  Tim Dyke: I wonder where that's coming from.
• 18:17
  Tim Dyke: It's not because you want to attack me personally, for example, or, you know, make it be angry with me.
• 18:23
  Tim Dyke: It's coming from something else.
• 18:25
  Tim Dyke: That's, to me, very integrated with constellation work.
• 18:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 18:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Fascinating.
• 18:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Hey.
• 18:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 18:31
  Tracy Cartwright: And when you, when you can step back from that and think, Hmm, what's going on there other than, yeah.
• 18:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, with an, with
• 18:38
  Tim Dyke: a, um, what do they call it?
• 18:39
  Tim Dyke: An empty.
• 18:41
  Tim Dyke: Empty mind.
• 18:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:42
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, so there's no judgment,
• 18:44
  Tim Dyke: no assumption.
• 18:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 18:45
  Tracy Cartwright: And you know, that's those, um, if it is, if it is as a facilitator and whatever that's going on is feeling a bit itchy or a bit uncomfortable, and then as a facilitator, it's time to look at that for yourself, right?
• 18:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 18:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 19:00
  Tracy Cartwright: The beauty of this work and in life in general, really, like if you've got someone in your life that is poking the beer sort of thing.
• 19:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 19:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, well, what does it bringing up?
• 19:10
  Tracy Cartwright: What's all that about?
• 19:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 19:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Exactly.
• 19:13
  Tracy Cartwright: How would you describe Constellations to people?
• 19:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Or obviously you've referred to it as mapping, but how do you describe?
• 19:22
  Tim Dyke: One way of saying it is, well, maybe you have a problem or an issue that's bugging you, and imagine if you can get insight into that issue and that insight's something that you can't gain through thinking through a problem that you.
• 19:36
  Tim Dyke: Provide insight that you, you're able to gain insight in a different context.
• 19:44
  Tim Dyke: Then yeah, sort of thinking about living, you know, we're all living systems, we're all in living systems such as families, communities, whether we know it or not, whether we like it or not.
• 19:54
  Tim Dyke: Sometimes in organizations, people, leaders get annoyed because they have to think, sorry.
• 19:59
  Tim Dyke: It's to their detriment if they don't think systemically 'cause they want to reduce things.
• 20:04
  Tim Dyke: And you know, there are principles by which systems operate and sometimes these are at play without our knowledge.
• 20:10
  Tim Dyke: Um, and so systems are incredibly complex and may not be easily explainable through logic or analysis.
• 20:18
  Tim Dyke: An example is that, you know, organizations have organizational charts and it shows you the hierarchy of power and authority throughout an organization.
• 20:28
  Tim Dyke: But the organization as a system doesn't live through an organizational chart.
• 20:33
  Tim Dyke: It usually lives through a trust.
• 20:36
  Tim Dyke: Chart.
• 20:37
  Tim Dyke: And so it's really interesting then to map an organization as far as the trust.
• 20:42
  Tim Dyke: So who are the trusted individuals in an organization?
• 20:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, you know,
• 20:46
  Tim Dyke: who do people go to for advice?
• 20:49
  Tim Dyke: Um, and that's often got nothing to do with the hierarchy.
• 20:53
  Tim Dyke: Um, and so, you know, that they're, they're just some of the ways that I would introduce, um, you know, constellation work and say that.
• 21:00
  Tim Dyke: It invites in the whole system without judgment and assumption or need necessarily need for action.
• 21:08
  Tim Dyke: It may just be observation and awareness raising.
• 21:11
  Tim Dyke: Yeah.
• 21:11
  Tim Dyke: The other training that I've just done has been with Nora Bateson in, um, warm data and another concept of hers.
• 21:20
  Tim Dyke: People need people and she uses a, or has created a lot of big words.
• 21:26
  Tim Dyke: Um, but, and I won't go into those, but she's thinking and body experience through different contexts.
• 21:34
  Tim Dyke: And so getting, getting people to talk to each other.
• 21:37
  Tim Dyke: In slightly different contexts and sharing stories, those sort of things.
• 21:41
  Tim Dyke: And that's just, that's just showing me that, uh, that power of looking for insight or exploring insight in a different context.
• 21:49
  Tim Dyke: So it's the two, the constellations and warm data don't necessarily.
• 21:54
  Tim Dyke: Go together.
• 21:55
  Tim Dyke: Um, but they're just, it's just, it just exposed me to different ways of approaching issues.
• 22:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, absolutely.
• 22:02
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and that's, I think the beauty of this work too, is that there are, you can, you know, you can bring in those other aspects.
• 22:10
  Tracy Cartwright: It'll allow you to take the, the bones of this work and fuse them together in a way, or, or blend them so that there's fluidity.
• 22:18
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's one thing I really appreciated about inhaling his words, were that, um, you know, take the bones of what I can give in, in the, in the structure of the work, and then add your own essence and bring in.
• 22:31
  Tracy Cartwright: All the other skills, like for yourself, you know, with your, um, scientific mind, your veterinary, um, thinking and yeah.
• 22:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Have you ever worked with other animals in Constellation?
• 22:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, no.
• 22:44
  Tim Dyke: No.
• 22:44
  Tim Dyke: Horses have, um, have been the only exposure I've had.
• 22:47
  Tim Dyke: And one of the insights around horses is they can clearly tell your authenticity.
• 22:53
  Tim Dyke: So if you are going, you know, oh hi, lovely, I'm lovely horse or something, and yet you are very scared inside.
• 23:01
  Tim Dyke: I'll just walk away.
• 23:03
  Tracy Cartwright: My first introduction, the weekend of my first introduction to Constellations, actually, no, sorry.
• 23:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Actually it was the next time it was, I'd had my introduction and then the next time I went to Wellington, so about a year later I did a piece of work with a horse horses down there, um, with Jenny Gibbons, who runs a beautiful offering down that way.
• 23:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Anyway, she had these two horses and I. My question was, um, about around my business and to be honest, horses freaked the bajes outta me, right?
• 23:31
  Tracy Cartwright: I'd never had much to do with horses.
• 23:34
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, and so I picked biggest horse to be the thing that I felt was the most overwhelming and the little horse to be the thing that I was what I wanted my goal to be.
• 23:45
  Tracy Cartwright: And I spent the time wandering around after this little horse who didn't wanna borrow me.
• 23:49
  Tracy Cartwright: The big horse kept following me around.
• 23:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 23:52
  Tracy Cartwright: And when I finally stopped and took a breath and thought, okay, I've gotta face this, and turned around and looked at the big horse and it was so warm and energetic.
• 24:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 24:01
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, like it was just, it wasn't as scary as I thought it was, and I took some time with it.
• 24:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Then the other horse came up to me, came
• 24:08
  Tim Dyke: up and stopped chasing it.
• 24:09
  Tim Dyke: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:10
  Tim Dyke: Yeah.
• 24:11
  Tracy Cartwright: But they were so beautiful.
• 24:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Like they were, yeah.
• 24:14
  Tracy Cartwright: They really held that space.
• 24:15
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, keeping all that human stuff out of the way.
• 24:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 24:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 24:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 24:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Be holding space for me to see what I needed to see.
• 24:22
  Tim Dyke: Yeah.
• 24:22
  Tim Dyke: And then the lovely phrase that.
• 24:24
  Tim Dyke: I often come back to is, you know, if this made perfect sense, what sense would it make?
• 24:29
  Tim Dyke: Um, if you wanna ask that question at the end of a, of an experience like that.
• 24:34
  Tim Dyke: Um, but I, but I also think it's reassuring for people in Constellation work to go, just let this sit for a while.
• 24:41
  Tim Dyke: Don't analyze it.
• 24:42
  Tim Dyke: Just let it be so we don't, you don't have to make sense of it now,
• 24:47
  Tracy Cartwright: but maybe in a
• 24:47
  Tim Dyke: few days we can talk and see whether it's, you know, what sense it's making for you.
• 24:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 24:53
  Tim Dyke: Because it is largely around sense making.
• 24:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 24:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 24:56
  Tracy Cartwright: I think that's one of the biggest things.
• 24:58
  Tracy Cartwright: People want to, the humanness wants to analyze it, pull it apart, understand it, have a, yeah.
• 25:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Have an understanding of it.
• 25:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 25:04
  Tracy Cartwright: So impacting in your life, the changes, if the, if you feel comfortable to share, like Yeah.
• 25:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 25:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Sure.
• 25:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Impacted your life.
• 25:12
  Tim Dyke: Yeah.
• 25:12
  Tim Dyke: Um, I suppose it's part of my journey, um, and also trying to, you know, master coaching and leadership development too.
• 25:22
  Tim Dyke: Just be able to say, to not jump to solutions.
• 25:26
  Tim Dyke: 'cause I also, because I do consultancy work as well, people are waiting for advice.
• 25:30
  Tim Dyke: So it's quite.
• 25:32
  Tim Dyke: Challenging to flip into different mindsets, um, over, and my coaching here and my consulting here, but to just in, in Constellation work and coaching work, to just be able to say maybe, you know, maybe this obvious solutions or actions may came to mind, come to mind.
• 25:48
  Tim Dyke: And you just go, well, maybe that's.
• 25:52
  Tim Dyke: Maybe it's not, maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong.
• 25:55
  Tim Dyke: And so simply to say maybe, and to always remain curious that, and to curious to whatever is happening in the field personally, uh, it's also, it's training me to get outta my head.
• 26:10
  Tim Dyke: And to be an empty space and, uh, an empty center was the word I was looking for an empty center, um, to go, well, you know, yeah, maybe, or, or, wow, I'm feeling, I'm feeling something here that is different for me.
• 26:25
  Tim Dyke: And uh, it's something that I could.
• 26:29
  Tim Dyke: And so that remaining curious, and I've really, I've really latched onto the importance of stories that people tell, tell themselves, um, and that I tell myself and to go, okay, well yeah, maybe that is the interpretation, but maybe it's not, you know, what are, and so in coaching, I can, um, often explore.
• 26:52
  Tim Dyke: So who's, you know.
• 26:54
  Tim Dyke: Oh, you say that.
• 26:55
  Tim Dyke: You're very definite about that.
• 26:56
  Tim Dyke: That's interesting.
• 26:57
  Tim Dyke: Who's telling you that?
• 26:59
  Tim Dyke: Or where, where does that come from?
• 27:02
  Tim Dyke: And people will.
• 27:03
  Tim Dyke: Quickly identify, you know, so, so that curiosity and just, just being able to sit with things and say maybe also to sort of radically include everything, so to not push things away because they may be dark or, um, fearful that you can include everything and it's okay to have everything there because that is part of your, so that's, that's probably where I use it personally.
• 27:29
  Tim Dyke: Um,
• 27:30
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 27:31
  Tim Dyke: I, I've really embraced the, um, just the holding of the space, I suppose, and without the need for action.
• 27:40
  Tim Dyke: Um, just holding the space is, you know, that that's really, the Constellation works has really strengthened that resolving me.
• 27:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 27:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and I imagine that, um, from my experience of being in your space, I think that, I imagine that it would be a well held space.
• 27:57
  Tracy Cartwright: I really like your energy and the, and what you bring to the space wherever you are.
• 28:01
  Tracy Cartwright: I haven't been in a facilitation for those who are listening.
• 28:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I haven't had been facilitated, um, by Tim, but just being in terms of presence, it holds a beautiful space.
• 28:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you.
• 28:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, you're welcome.
• 28:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, do you have any favorite facilitators?
• 28:15
  Tim Dyke: Oh, I did love working with John Wittington.
• 28:18
  Tim Dyke: I, I thought he was really good.
• 28:20
  Tim Dyke: Um, I love Judith Hemmings work.
• 28:24
  Tim Dyke: I love Sarah Peyton's work in, you know, exposure to them.
• 28:27
  Tim Dyke: Um, uh, not necessarily being involved.
• 28:30
  Tim Dyke: I just observe them as facilitators.
• 28:33
  Tim Dyke: And what they bring.
• 28:34
  Tim Dyke: And I think in, in each of them, when I think through it, it's, it's the, what I'm honoring for them is the, is just the calmness, whatever's going on, there's a calmness there and an observation of what could be happening in the, in the field, in the system, in the space.
• 28:53
  Tim Dyke: So they're, they're probably three that I have been.
• 28:57
  Tim Dyke: Very impressed with, um, John does do organizational work.
• 29:02
  Tim Dyke: Um, there isn't very many organizational organization related constellations around.
• 29:08
  Tim Dyke: I've heard a few internationally.
• 29:10
  Tim Dyke: One of the challenges, of course, is that.
• 29:12
  Tim Dyke: You don't get to meet them and see them in person and how they work.
• 29:16
  Tim Dyke: Yeah, so the, they, they're the three that come to mind and it's, it's been wonderful having Vanessa, you know, close by and working with her.
• 29:23
  Tim Dyke: Um, we use constellations quite a lot internally to learn, uh, how we could use them with clients.
• 29:29
  Tim Dyke: But, um, for example, yesterday we constellated the choice of a coach for a potential client.
• 29:35
  Tim Dyke: And, um, you know, they're sort of cappuccino constellations.
• 29:38
  Tim Dyke: They take 10 minutes.
• 29:40
  Tim Dyke: There's a lot of value in them.
• 29:42
  Tim Dyke: Just as another tool, another instrument to, to use, along with other, the practicalities of, you know, for, for us location and whether someone wants face-to-face or online and, um, you know, whether they prefer a male or a female.
• 29:57
  Tim Dyke: Coach, you know?
• 29:58
  Tim Dyke: Absolutely.
• 29:59
  Tim Dyke: But that's really practical use.
• 30:02
  Tim Dyke: The other technique, um, that I just wanted to say that I love using is, um, we call it clock face, because you can visualize it without writing it down, although you can write it down.
• 30:13
  Tim Dyke: And that's just saying, okay, put, let's say put yourself.
• 30:17
  Tim Dyke: At the middle of the clock face and then put whatever you are choosing to what, whatever the issue is.
• 30:23
  Tim Dyke: Um, where, where does that sit?
• 30:25
  Tim Dyke: Within the clock, clock, face.
• 30:26
  Tim Dyke: So you can have a, you can have a zoom conversation without even seeing what the other person is writing down, because you can actually talk through it, say, oh, that's at three o'clock.
• 30:39
  Tim Dyke: That's at 12 o'clock.
• 30:40
  Tim Dyke: Yeah.
• 30:41
  Tim Dyke: So that's a really, I'm, I'm finding that a really useful technique.
• 30:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 30:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 30:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 30:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Um,
• 30:46
  Tim Dyke: and as, as you know, in Constellation work, the, um, the documentation of constellations is not as thorough as a scientist would like it to be.
• 30:56
  Tim Dyke: Let's, let's, and I'm trying to document all of the, the spatial mapping sort of techniques.
• 31:03
  Tim Dyke: And just see how people use them.
• 31:05
  Tim Dyke: And there's, there's a consistency in how people use them, but, and maybe it'll turn into a book at some stage.
• 31:11
  Tim Dyke: Um, just, you know, recording how people use spatial mapping techniques.
• 31:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 31:17
  Tim Dyke: Yeah.
• 31:18
  Tim Dyke: Um,
• 31:18
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 31:19
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause I, you know, I
• 31:19
  Tim Dyke: want that, I want that structured approach.
• 31:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 31:22
  Tim Dyke: Um, particularly if I'm talking to other science-based people about it.
• 31:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 31:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Good to have that.
• 31:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, the evidence, I think Dan Cohen, he's done a PhD, um, and he's brought constellations into that.
• 31:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 31:36
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's all a little bit above my pay grade right now, because I've come into it from the healing side of things, you know?
• 31:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 31:42
  Tracy Cartwright: So that's, yeah, I learned was learning the psychology and, and stuff from it.
• 31:46
  Tracy Cartwright: So yes, just coming in from different angles.
• 31:48
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's another, from an intuitive
• 31:49
  Tim Dyke: point of view.
• 31:50
  Tim Dyke: Yeah.
• 31:50
  Tim Dyke: Yeah.
• 31:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 31:51
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's a ho that's another reason why I love this work.
• 31:53
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause there's so many different doorways.
• 31:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Different, yeah.
• 31:56
  Tracy Cartwright: So beautiful.
• 31:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Is there anything else that you would like to share?
• 32:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, yeah, just the only
• 32:01
  Tim Dyke: other thing is what the, the aha moment.
• 32:05
  Tim Dyke: One of the aha moments for me in constellation work was.
• 32:08
  Tim Dyke: About the importance of flow and love, and that can be applied to, um, organizations as much as to family, the ability of the hidden to then be exposed as, as a way of understanding the system and allowing flow to occur.
• 32:26
  Tim Dyke: That's been really interesting for me around the importance of flow and therefore blockages and stops and fear and all those types of things and how they.
• 32:38
  Tim Dyke: Often play into the way that the system is working or not working.
• 32:42
  Tim Dyke: That was just the other thing that I, that I, um, I,
• 32:45
  Tracy Cartwright: I love that, because I think as she, you tapped on it earlier about the individualism, how we're Yes, we are sort of en trained to be individuals.
• 32:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 32:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and yet, uh, we come from systems.
• 32:57
  Tracy Cartwright: We need that.
• 32:58
  Tracy Cartwright: We need that connection.
• 32:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 32:59
  Tracy Cartwright: We need the ease and the flow, so sometimes too.
• 33:03
  Tracy Cartwright: We feel like we have to do it all ourselves, then there is no flow.
• 33:07
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause we are being really rigid and, and that energetically, so then you've got, if you've got a hundred people all in doing that, where's the flow in the system.
• 33:16
  Tim Dyke: Yeah.
• 33:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 33:17
  Tracy Cartwright: So,
• 33:18
  Tim Dyke: and you know, even.
• 33:20
  Tim Dyke: Coaching people individually.
• 33:22
  Tim Dyke: Um, you know, that sort of enhances that feeling of individualism.
• 33:27
  Tim Dyke: However it is about the relationships.
• 33:30
  Tim Dyke: It's not about the individual at all really, at the end of the day.
• 33:32
  Tim Dyke: Mm-hmm.
• 33:33
  Tim Dyke: But you've gotta have both.
• 33:34
  Tim Dyke: I suppose it's, but it, and it's not a binary, it's together.
• 33:37
  Tim Dyke: So I find that really interesting to think through that.
• 33:42
  Tim Dyke: Um, one of my favorite questions in, in coaching leaders is.
• 33:47
  Tim Dyke: What is, yes, you hate the person, but what is the professional relationship you want with them?
• 33:52
  Tim Dyke: And so sort of moving more away from the individual into the relationship.
• 33:58
  Tim Dyke: And, you know, constellations is always looking at the relationship, the, the closeness, the color of it, the strength of it.
• 34:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Um,
• 34:06
  Tim Dyke: those, you know, of the relationships.
• 34:08
  Tim Dyke: And then, and of course there's flow then in the relationship before we're all individuals.
• 34:13
  Tim Dyke: And we're all reduced to being individuals and you can't have flow.
• 34:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 34:17
  Tim Dyke: It's not possible.
• 34:18
  Tim Dyke: Exactly.
• 34:19
  Tim Dyke: So, yeah.
• 34:20
  Tim Dyke: So great.
• 34:21
  Tim Dyke: It's great work.
• 34:22
  Tim Dyke: Um, and I love the work you do in the space.
• 34:24
  Tim Dyke: I wish I could do more of it.
• 34:26
  Tim Dyke: Um, and I, um, it's, it's helped me both personally and professionally to, you know, expand my knowledge and to um, uh, try and use it for, you know, the benefit of people I interact with.
• 34:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 34:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 34:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you.
• 34:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, I, yeah, I love the work too.
• 34:47
  Tracy Cartwright: It's changed my life and it's, it's, yeah, done the same things.
• 34:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Expand my knowledge and Yeah.
• 34:54
  Tracy Cartwright: And I'm really grateful, I'm really glad that you're doing this work too, because, uh, you know, we need good solid men who are, who are prepared to, to do it, because really we haven't, we haven't
• 35:06
  Tim Dyke: got into Masson or Feminine Energy, but there's another.
• 35:09
  Tim Dyke: That's another really interesting balance.
• 35:11
  Tim Dyke: Yeah.
• 35:11
  Tim Dyke: Um, it was interesting if I can share that in the workshop.
• 35:15
  Tim Dyke: I felt that, and I mentioned this to another male participant that I felt like sometimes we're in the middle of women's work.
• 35:24
  Tim Dyke: And I felt like I should, should leave.
• 35:28
  Tim Dyke: That was just a feeling and I should have expressed it.
• 35:30
  Tim Dyke: 'cause of course we were doing constellation work in the retreat.
• 35:33
  Tim Dyke: But it is, um, that's another fascinating element for me is, um, yes, masculine and feminine energy and
• 35:40
  Tracy Cartwright: that we all have
• 35:41
  Tim Dyke: bits of it.
• 35:41
  Tim Dyke: And, um, you know, how we, how we express our.
• 35:46
  Tim Dyke: True available self.
• 35:48
  Tim Dyke: Exactly.
• 35:49
  Tim Dyke: That's another, that's another podcast.
• 35:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 35:52
  Tracy Cartwright: I was thinking, crikey, there's so much more that we could be talking about, right?
• 35:55
  Tim Dyke: Yes.
• 35:56
  Tim Dyke: Well, hopefully, hopefully by the middle of next year I'll have published my book on Men in Leadership too.
• 36:02
  Tim Dyke: Uh, does it have any constellation work?
• 36:05
  Tim Dyke: Probably not more a self-awareness book, but, um, yeah, uh, there's opportunity there.
• 36:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 36:11
  Tracy Cartwright: And if people, I know I'm gonna put stuff in the link, but if people wanted to get hold of you, how would they find you to?
• 36:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Um,
• 36:19
  Tim Dyke: yes.
• 36:19
  Tim Dyke: So leading, leading Well group is, uh, the best, um, search on Google.
• 36:24
  Tim Dyke: Um, and then I'm on LinkedIn, um, Tim Dyke.
• 36:28
  Tim Dyke: Um, they're, they're probably the best links.
• 36:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 36:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, thank you so much for coming on and.
• 36:34
  Tracy Cartwright: It's only a glimpse really.
• 36:36
  Tracy Cartwright: There's so much more that we could be sharing, but, uh, maybe that's, like you say, that's another podcast.
• 36:41
  Tracy Cartwright: An absolute honor.
• 36:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Tracy.
• 36:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 36:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Pleasure.
• 36:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you so much, Tim.
• 36:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Wish you well today.
• 36:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Thanks.
• 36:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Thanks.
• 36:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you for listening.
• 36:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 36:53
  Tracy Cartwright: You'll find me at Tracy dot Cartwright.
• 36:57
  Tracy Cartwright: That's Tracy with no e dot Cartwright and the or head over to my website, Tracy cartwright.co.nz and receive a free audio with the gift from your ancestors.
• 37:09
  Tracy Cartwright: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.