Latest / The Payments Shed / Ep. 31 - Building Trust & Convenience in Payments, with Easipay's Peter Stuart

Transcript

Ep. 31 - Building Trust & Convenience in Payments, with Easipay's Peter Stuart · The Payments Shed

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Welcome to the Payment Shed Podcast, the weekly podcast that
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dives into the big topics, trends and people shaping the
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world's of payments, fintech and business leadership of your two
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Co hosts, myself Grant Evans and Justin Hannah.
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Welcome back to the Payment Shed podcast.
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Today we've been lucky enough to be joined by Peter Stewart, CEO
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of Easy Pay. Pete, thanks for joining us.
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Tell us a little bit more about yourself.
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Well first of all, thanks for having me on.
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I have been in payments since about 2018.
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Used to work for a different ISO essentially long time ago.
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Learnt it, understood it like numbers.
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So I thought well I think I can manage with this.
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Went on my own for a little bit, realised not necessarily the
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best at work on my own, found someone I got on with, paired up
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with them and then we grew. Easy pay and that's it, really.
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And your path has really kind of simplified operations and
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customer trust. Can you just tell us a little
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bit about the journey that led to the the foundation of Easy
1:01
Pay? Yeah, I think that one of the
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common things you have when you're an ISO or broker or just
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generally selling almost something that isn't yours, but
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it is, is giving somebody what they need rather than just
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slamming down something down the throats and just saying go on
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smash and grab, sign this, see you and move on sort of thing.
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So there's definitely a gap still now even needs to be
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bridged with the the service side of the cell really.
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So then with the card payments, you then realized, well, by
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saving people time and money, we can add other products to it,
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which sort of makes people stick here and give them more service,
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make their lives a bit easier, saving money where possible, and
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just sort of bridge that gap between spending two hours on
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the phone on hold to somebody to speak to somebody offshore or or
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whatever. Just close that gap really.
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And you're obviously the COO. How important do you think the
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operational side of things is when you're, you know, working
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towards building and scaling a really reliable payment solution
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or solutions business? It's massive.
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And I think that sometimes when we we've grown massively, but at
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a very, very fast speed and along the way, operationally,
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daily, weekly, monthly, you just see something else that needs to
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be done. And the, the pain about growing
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too quickly is that something always falls short.
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So then now we're at a stage where we're growing so quickly
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and we want to level off, make sure everything's aligned from
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the customer service to the loyalty, because what happens is
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you sell and everything's going and you're growing and
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everything. The metrics are all fine.
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You know the numbers, but then you just forget about something.
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And it's not because you don't know about it, It's just because
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you're prioritizing getting the revenue in to grow the business.
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And then now it's just leveling it off, making sure the service
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is all right, and just keeping everything sort of in line with
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where it needs to be really. How much have you leveraged
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technology to sort of help your team with that?
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We a year ago, I would say we're, we're genuine, genuine
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dinosaurs, even a decent sales volume and a decent sized
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business in terms of tech and support internally as well as
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externally, we're way behind, you know, so even from how deals
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were being processed or boarded and things like that, we're just
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so far behind. We're a lot better now, you
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know, sales force and we've got a lot of support with all
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assistance for the guys, but the focus was on the selling side of
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it. So how can we get more sales and
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cross sell products through using technology, whereas now
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it's more like how can we service our customers through
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it? Are we making sure they're
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getting notified about any change and things like that
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rather than, you know, things changing on terminals or devices
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or upgrades and nobody really knows what's going on.
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So it's it's used more of a communication tool now.
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It's that true startup mindset though, isn't it?
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Right. You want to grow the revenue.
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You want to build out the sales team, give them the tools first,
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help them to grow, get some money in the bank, and then you
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know you worry about the. Operational stuff, worry about
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the poor three people in customer service serving 50
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sellers and then you're like, no, I think we probably should
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need a few more that. It's that chicken egg situation,
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isn't it? I think we've all done it right.
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When you're in in a sales team, it's fantastic because you gotta
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win it all costs. And I've seen it where
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businesses go, oh, we need to employ an account manager or
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customer success. And then you've got someone
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else, whether it's in finance or whether it's on a sales
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perspective of commercial and going, let's just win more deals
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first. Then all of a sudden your sales
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team are doing their job, which is great.
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And then they start asking questions and your sales team of
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whether we like it or not. Some just go, I've done my job,
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I've I've sold because customer, they've signed a contract, we're
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all live. We want to start seeing revenue
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Commission. Actually, the everyday
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operational, transactional queries, chargeback queries,
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whatever it may be, needs to be answered by someone that's going
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to give them the the time of day, right?
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Yeah. And I think it's when you're
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dealing with a lot of. So we initially used to target
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because of the other products that we sell.
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We used to target sort of new businesses if you like.
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So you know, though being serviced daily, the data team
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were managing that side of it and we were selling loads and
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loads and loads of products and terminals and whatever else.
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And then, you know, they've got so many other things to
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concentrate on when you're opening a business, that first
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few weeks is like the most important thing, knowing exactly
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how this new device that you've got is going to work and making
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sure you've got that point of contact.
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So, you know, I would say that, you know, early days we probably
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lost a fair chunk of customers just because we weren't able to
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service them. And that's where now we're
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almost going overboard to ensure that even though our volume has
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gone through the roof and we'll continue to do so, that we've
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got the support to back it up because it's so competitive.
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The market now it's, it's almost like in a bizarre way more
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important than pricing the service that you're giving
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because people don't want to change all the time.
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They don't want to have to do things like that, but that one
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day where they might need you, if you're not there, then you
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may as well have never, you know you'll lose them for life sort
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of things so. It's really interesting hearing
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that from the ISO side of the fence 'cause I think, you know,
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traditionally over the last decade or so, Isos, you know,
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they have helped to move the market forward undeniably.
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But you could also say with the sheer volume of Isos that came
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into market that they drove the price point down significantly,
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right? But now you're saying we're
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going back up the other side. And it's things like technology,
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product, service that that even in the ISO world are the most
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important things and you can charge a premium for better
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service. Yeah.
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I think there's a middle ground because I think, I think that
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merchants, because the way they're saturated and more
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people going into business every day trying to sell them
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something. And you know, some days I'm sure
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small businesses will have more people coming in trying to sell
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them something than buying a product, you know, which is the
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nature of the beast. But so naturally the the rates
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and things and prices are going to go down.
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But I feel like even a coffee shop or everything, everybody's
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diversifying because they've got to be different, right?
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So yes, you go and I went for a coffee this morning around the
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corner and there's about eight in a row, 8 cafes.
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I'm like, right, you've got your Starbucks, you've got your
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gales, you've got whatever else. And a couple of, you know,
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private, privately owned ones. And I was the one I chose to go
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in. Probably I would say was, is, is
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what I would describe as overpriced coffee, but I am from
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up north. So but the but it was so clean
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and the aesthetic was just different and they just had a
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different angle and it was nice and it worked so like.
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Scandi vibes or? Well, no, it was, it was, it was
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like I was, I would say oriental clean, if you know what I mean,
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Like a nice little wooden tray that it was all like crisp.
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You know an experience then. Oh, that's it.
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Yeah, you can sell it like that. I mean, I just I sat outside on
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a bench, not even on the table, but it's yeah, it's I just think
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that more and more businesses are having to do different
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things and if you're giving them different options, it's just a
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lot better rather than just going have that it does that.
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These rates are that low. Cool.
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But how can you make the business better?
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How can that what can it do for your business, whatever system
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it is? You know, the e-commerce side is
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going crazy now, even if you go to a market, right.
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I was saying this the other day. If you go to a market stall,
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people, you should just that's your fruit and veg stall.
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That's it. But now more people on markets
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have a shop somewhere, they're just either doing the the mobile
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food stuff sometimes or you know, they'll have a shop and
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they'll do that as well on top. So like now you think, right,
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well, they've got the same stock or two places.
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You need something there that's going to link up with it.
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And now they're making these, you know, sort of instant
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e-commerce stores. So you can scan AQR code.
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And if you go and if I'm going to market, I don't want to carry
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a lot of stuff around home. Or if I'm going to York and I go
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market and I don't want to lumber stuff home, I'd rather
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get it undamaged. You can just order it straight
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from the QR code home and stuff like that.
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So there's a lot of changes, but ultimately, yeah, I think that
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the the service side and you can't realise an ISO and a
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broker to go back to what you're saying.
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You can't really rely on the acquirer or retaining your
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customer and looking after your customer.
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You've got to try and take control.
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And it can be difficult sometimes because they are your
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customers, but they're not your customers and you've got that
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sort of area, grey area. But I think ultimately is from
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when you sign that contract, are you as an ISO or a broker?
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Are you contacting them, giving them a welcome pack, telling
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that where your point of contact, contact us will solve
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your problem. You're not just another number
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because otherwise they may as well just go direct, right?
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You can try and sell as many benefits as you want.
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So, oh, we can't get this deal direct.
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It's just for those or it's just nonsense, isn't it?
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You know what I mean? It's just, it's just a poor,
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weak sales tactic. It's a challenge for the
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aquirers as well. Obviously we've we've worked for
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various different aquirers over the years and you know the ISO
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channel is so fundamentally important, but it is also
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competing with your own sales teams, right.
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So there is that, you know, you're coming up with one idea
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as the ISO, the aquirer's coming up for an idea in terms of their
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own direct, direct to market proposition.
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So you're, you know, you're competing in some ways with
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other pureplay vendors in the market.
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And I think service it always comes back to service for me
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like that service element is absolutely vital.
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If you're going to be an ISO in and kind of starting other
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people's lunch, you have to offer offer something different,
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right? And it sounds like that's what
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you guys are doing part of, yeah.
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I think that's that's the the angle really.
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So as an ISO for we're not really, I've alluded to it, but
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not really said so the card payments is the meat and drink,
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but there are other sectors that will grow with us just as much.
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Like when we're going into a business, our field sells,
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right? I, I respect anybody who's
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selling the field so much because no appointments and
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stuff, the cold call, just knocking doors like it's brutal,
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right? So it only takes a small win to
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make your day with that stuff. So why give your agents one
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opportunity to have a win? So if you go in this business,
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no, I'm absolutely over the moon with my payment system.
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Like you'll never, I'll never change.
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I love it. It works perfectly for me then.
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OK, cheers. Bye.
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No, OK, Well, that's perfect. I'm so glad you got that sorted.
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These are the things we offer, you know, gas and electric,
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water, waste management, broadband, insurance, all these
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are the products where I'm I'm. I'm not going to push you to try
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and change something you like when it does go wrong.
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We're here to help. But if you've already got them
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on another product, they're even more likely to come to you when
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they are ready to change. So you're already there.
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You're creating a different data pot.
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There's different angles and ways to attack it, but it's not
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in like a harsh sales way. It's literally just slowly
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building a web with one customer so that eventually the idea is
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as long as you can give them what they need that you've got,
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everything makes them stickier. It's, you know, it's a bit like
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the logic with with trying to sell somebody a an epos system
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rather than a stand alone, you know, because there's more
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commitment there, not just financially, but system wise.
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You, you basically, it's why I sum up and Zack and companies
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like that when they started doing the tablet sort of based
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simple EPOS system or POS system, they won't bother about
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what they're paying because they're in there.
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They've got in the door straight away.
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It's out of the out of the packet working and then to stray
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away from that as a new business if it's worked for six months, a
11:46
year too. Difficult to leave.
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Right. Yeah, exactly.
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That's a mental thing as well though, right?
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You need give the Epos away or give the hardware away and then
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you don't charge 50 basis points or half a percent.
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You charge 2 1/2%. But because the business felt
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that they were getting a big win with this tangible physical
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thing that sits within their their premises, they didn't mind
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paying slightly more because they were like, that used to be
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the expensive thing. That's you're saying that's free
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now, right? It was genius way to to go to
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market. Yeah, it, it definitely was.
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But, and then now they're the, the bigger merchants.
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They're, you know, they will knock it down a little bit and
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then they, they've, they've got, they've got it shown up well.
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But it's just realise making some customers realise, and
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obviously it's perfect for some, but making them realise that
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there's that's like the base level of of what you could have
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or what you can do, you know, and businesses, I think next
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year will be a massive change from sort of basic stand alone
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to a lot more complex systems just because of the e-commerce
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is going mad more just you need if your bills are going up and,
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and as a business and you know, it's harder to always break
12:51
even. Everything's going up, whether
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you're a builder, whatever it is cost going on, you need to be
12:55
able to sell wherever, however, whenever you can, right?
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So give the customer every opportunity to buy, to pay.
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Your gateway is so important because if you're lazy like me,
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I'm frustrated when you're trying to shop for something
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online. If I can't double tap the side
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and Apple Pay it, I'm not doing it.
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I'm abandoned in my basket. I'm I'm getting out of there.
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I don't want to make let me check out as a guest.
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I don't want to sign up to news. Like I understand you want to
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capture the data. I get all that, but just let me
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pay and people won't realise or analyse the amount of people and
13:24
the revenue that they're losing from definitely from just trying
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to be get too much. When we talk about Easy Pay,
13:30
then what's that relationship with the Redwood Group and that
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kind of broader ecosystem as a business?
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So the Redwood Group is, is the original really that is that was
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a start and card was done under the Redwood group.
13:41
Redwood, the Redwood tree etcetera with all its things on
13:44
it and energy was just the starting point really and change
13:49
of tenancies and and general renewals, gas, electric
13:52
contracts etcetera. And then the card just sort of
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we, we started the relationship with Worldpay November 2022 and
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they, you know, they give the targets new initial contracts of
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like, you know, 30 to 40 devices a a month, I think about 300 a
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year or something. But it was just the model that
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they built and the, the incentives and things like that.
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We just grew and grew and grew with it.
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So although we were still doing the energy and started building
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the other products, it just skyrocketed really.
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And, you know, so we, we, we built that.
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And it's, it's very weird because when we're trying to
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brand things or, or do things, we, we decide at the moment, do
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we easy everything? Do we easy talk easy whatever
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easy fund or do we keep it to the Redwood Group?
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But it seems weird to have a a brand that is technically bigger
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underneath it type of thing. So it's one of the things we
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discussed at the moment really. So you might see some changes in
14:46
the new year. But yeah, it's.
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Watch the space. Yeah, watch the space.
14:52
Look, when we talk about brokers and are we touching it already,
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brokers obviously play such a huge role in a kind of
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connecting merchants with acquirers, whether it's well
15:01
paid, Elevon, whoever it may be. When it comes to PSR, which
15:05
everyone's favorite topic over the last few years, how of them
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changes do you think have impacted that ecosystem?
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I think best way I can phrase I, I don't think it's positive at
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all. And I think the the intention
15:20
was all right and I don't think many could have predicted the
15:24
effect it has had. So for me doing that by the
15:28
customer is their priority, right?
15:30
And that's, that's what it's there for.
15:32
But by reducing contract lengths to 18 months, for example, which
15:37
is it's one of the few industries that it has.
15:39
I mean, we work with them all. We can do five years on
15:41
broadband, we can do 3-4 years energy, whatever it might be.
15:44
But to restrict that to 18 months, you're thinking, right,
15:48
well, the customer's got more flexibility, etcetera, etcetera.
15:51
But all that's happening is, is that all the acquirers and all
15:55
the ISA's, all the brokers have less period of time to have that
15:57
customer and make revenue off them.
16:00
Essentially, it's cut it by a big percent.
16:02
So then everyone's panic, panic selling, going low on rates, but
16:05
then every acquirer is giving a customer a bad experience
16:08
because whoever you are, 99% of them will change their rates,
16:12
whether it's every quarter, every six months.
16:14
So they're more than washing the face of the deal.
16:16
So it's just creating this horrible sales environment when
16:19
everyone's going in, slagging each other off.
16:21
You know, I say to our guys, it's really hard as you're
16:24
growing and getting more people in the business to try and keep
16:28
a sort of ethos. And I always say to people hear
16:31
people when it's on the phone now and again or just out and
16:35
the I say, don't tell everybody or tell customers how bad
16:40
somebody else is. Tell them what's good about you,
16:43
tell them why we're good. You know what I mean?
16:44
I don't think there's there's any benefit at all in saying why
16:47
someone else is bad. If somebody said that to me, I'd
16:49
be like, well, OK, thanks. You're calling me an idiot for
16:51
using somebody else, right? So you're slagging off my
16:54
business. So I'm with X acquirer or X ISO
16:58
and you tell me I'm basically an idiot for using them.
17:00
Cheers for that. You know, so I think it's, it's
17:02
really important that the message gets out to everybody
17:05
that is competing with each other that stop thinking about
17:09
yourself and and start thinking about the customer, you know.
17:12
It's not we've created this this issue for ourselves by by
17:15
basically saying we're going to put in some regulations to help
17:18
merchants, which is great. And I think the thought of it
17:20
was there. But actually what we have done
17:23
is then allowed salespeople to get even more vicious.
17:26
Did the few ruin it for the money though?
17:28
I mean, that's kind of my take on it, right?
17:30
You had crazy stuff going on with yeah.
17:33
And from a vendor acquirer perspective, whatever you want
17:36
to call it, the the narrative was the other way around.
17:40
So you'd have Isos that were signing five year contracts at
17:44
crazy low terminal rates, getting fronted massive amounts
17:47
of money from leasing companies and giving the acquiring rate
17:51
away. And you know, some acquirers
17:52
operate on finite margins with with their ISO partners anyway.
17:55
So there were bad habits on both sides of the fence, right?
17:59
There's definitely a balance with it and I think that's some
18:02
of the logic beyond say the 10 incentives and things like that
18:04
is to sort of get that balance and get the control back, which
18:07
is which is fine, but I think ultimately right it customer
18:11
choice not not some customers, they don't want to even think
18:14
about changing something every 12 or 18 months.
18:16
Like they don't. It's another thing on their
18:18
plate. Ultimately, if you're happy and
18:21
it's been sold correctly as it should be and it's explained
18:23
properly and it's transparent and the customer is happy for X
18:26
period of time, so be it. But that's where they, I think
18:31
it's been done at the wrong time.
18:33
So this may be five years ago when there are less options in
18:36
terms of tech and things like that probably made a lot more
18:39
sense. But now most acquirers are
18:42
getting on board with right, we need to give a lot of different
18:44
offerings to catch up on the tech, the epos systems,
18:46
e-commerce integration, APIs, whatever, all of it.
18:50
So now it's like if, if they are standing for a long period of
18:55
time, they can go with the tech alongside swap it out, do do a
18:58
lot of jazz. Whereas the problems were with
19:00
these long leases and things like that is that you you'd have
19:02
a four year old terminal at the end of it.
19:04
And and if get your phone out your pocket, how how many times
19:08
you change your phone in four years.
19:09
Now, most people still do own new iPhone new this not much to
19:13
it. Sometimes.
19:14
Sometimes there is and you, you, you change it and you want to
19:16
so. It's the ease of changing it
19:18
though, right? Yeah, yeah.
19:19
See, we think we talk about the kind of the cost of acquisition
19:22
when it comes to acquiring payments for intake, whatever it
19:26
is to then only have a customer for 12 months to then lose them
19:29
on price. It's going to be difficult for
19:31
for any of. You have a really conflicting
19:33
view on this though, because you know, I got to this point with
19:36
mobile phone operators where, you know, I've got this for
19:38
three mobile at the moment. For some reason their 4G5G
19:41
network, whatever is in the last three or four months has just
19:43
become an absolute shower of shite to be honest with you.
19:46
And I've got six months left on my my phone contract.
19:48
You merge with Vodafone, right? Is that what's going?
19:50
On it was no, it was before the vote.
19:51
Well, maybe, maybe there's something in that.
19:54
Either way, I cannot wait to paid off my phone early.
19:58
So the, the, the mobile is mine now I'm trying to just go back
20:01
to giffgaff though, because I liked the thing I liked with
20:02
Giffgaff. I could just, I'm going to the
20:04
USA or whatever, no contractual commitment, you know, I'll just
20:07
buy £30 of roaming, whatever. I could go up and down with the
20:12
grade of my my solution that sort of pay as you go pay as you
20:15
go on steroids, right? That model was was a lot better,
20:18
but I thought I could leave them any time right the signal.
20:22
Issues I'm having now I could just go do you know what
20:24
giffgaff? I'm on a 30 day rolling contract
20:26
I'm going to go somewhere else. It changes the narrative
20:28
narrative back to the supplier to say your service isn't good
20:31
enough at the moment right. You tell me why I should stay
20:33
with you tell me why that's the all the support and service
20:35
stuff and operational things you say you.
20:37
Guys never leave. If it was working right would
20:39
you? I've been with O2 for 18 years.
20:43
The only reason I would leave being with O2 is if the service
20:46
that I've always got got worse. It just does it's job and I
20:49
think sometimes payments is the same thing so.
20:51
That's the problem you're making.
20:52
It's the payment fee you want to be paying.
20:53
Does the contract length matter that much in in some ways I
20:57
think. Doesn't have mobiles because the
20:59
upper every April with a certain percentage.
21:01
So do payment businesses. Right, Yeah, yeah.
21:04
So I don't know, I guess there are the the approach or
21:06
constructs. I think ultimately right is the
21:08
customer should be able to choose and they can't now
21:11
really, I mean you, you don't have options like that even
21:16
you'll find when there were four year contracts available or
21:19
whatever, there were companies that would offer 1234 years.
21:23
You don't get that now. You get 18 months and they're
21:26
not even willing most people to do 12 months because they need
21:28
that extra now because they haven't got the customers on
21:30
four years. So just makes it a bit more sort
21:33
of dogfight. It's soft paws and pin on glass
21:36
and things like that. Changing that anyway, because it
21:38
might be that the, the traditional pedal PDQ machine
21:41
has a sort of evolution or, or change, but certainly in, in
21:44
small SMBs where they might go to, well, I'm changing my phone
21:46
every 18 months anyway, so that's always going to be new
21:48
and my, my card payments go through that.
21:51
What's your kind of take on, on that in market traders and and
21:54
these sort of areas where you used to have a GPRS terminal,
21:56
right? Yeah, I think, I mean the the
21:58
soft post thing is is not to be underestimated.
22:00
I don't think in the next year or two, but I, I do think that
22:08
if you, if you're getting soft posture, if you're getting
22:11
anything other than the stand alone, like you being more
22:15
progressive. So like, however, you'd be happy
22:18
to have it longer because more of a commitment initially
22:20
anyway. You've obviously unless you're
22:22
completely in a rush or whatever you've done your research or
22:26
it's been explained and sold to you and this is what it can do
22:28
and you're happy with how it's going to operate.
22:30
But the what you can't predict is how your business will
22:33
change, which again comes back to flexibility.
22:36
But you can't get flexibility with a more sophisticated system
22:38
that has more cost to it. So that's why I think the where
22:41
the acquirers will win and everyone's trying their best to
22:45
get as much market of the market as possible is having a system
22:51
where it changes throughout the contract, all these things.
22:54
So your add-ons and the new integrations that come, don't
22:59
charge for them. No Boltons, no add-ons.
23:01
If you've got the system. And if you carry that and you
23:04
sort of like swallow that cost as an acquirer, you're not going
23:07
to lose people because if somebody goes, Oh my, my friends
23:11
still can do this and like, right, OK, well that's in our Q2
23:17
of 2026. So it will come.
23:18
And the good news is, is your friend pays £10 a month on top
23:21
to have that integration with whoever that'll be included
23:24
because we're just going to cover that for you and all these
23:26
things and moving alongside it, then you're never going to leave
23:29
all you do, you know what I mean?
23:30
There'll be some, there'll be somewhere you literally can't
23:32
avoid some cost to it, you know, where it might be 0 integration
23:35
or or whatever because their cost that they want to charge is
23:38
too much. But if you, if you can sort of
23:40
manage that and say again, come back to service Bolt comes up on
23:45
the till this month's upgrades. This is now what you can do on
23:49
your till. This is why we we we you said we
23:52
listen type thing. Yeah, and and do all that.
23:54
I think those value added services upsells and how you
23:57
present them to customers is kind of the next evolution of of
24:00
where we're going. You know, I've seen merchant
24:03
cash advance presented in terminal devices to merchants so
24:06
they could literally. Get.
24:07
I think it's on. The yeah, like flashing up
24:09
saying hey, you guys could have qualified for a grand loan this
24:12
month. Yeah.
24:13
But you know, it's, it's how everyone wants something really
24:15
quick now, right That, you know, it needs to be in the moment.
24:18
So if I, if I'm doing my daily report and that flashes up and
24:21
go, do you know what actually we want to build this?
24:23
So we want to do that upgrade to that room or whatever.
24:25
Like that's capturing them in the moment, right?
24:27
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25:11
I think that that's why the the we're like such a service sell,
25:15
right, Because you can send one of our guys in to a business or
25:19
I could go into a business and although this guy is run this
25:23
Barber shop around this salon or whatever for 15 years, sometimes
25:28
it takes somebody outside the bubble to go in and say you
25:31
thought about doing that. You know, I remember visiting a
25:34
new sort of Cafe bar restaurant that was literally being in the
25:39
process of being built. I just popped my head and said,
25:40
Oh, what you doing here? Sort of thing.
25:42
You can can never stop selling. And I'd started like becoming an
25:47
architect and said, Oh, and he said, I'm going to put a window
25:50
here. And I said, but you, you can't,
25:53
you can't have people going to the toilet there if your kitchen
25:55
window's there. Oh, it's a good point that, and
25:57
you're becoming like giving them ideas and they almost like you
26:01
take a proper invested interest because you know that if they
26:05
get the right thing, it'll be really good for them.
26:07
And then they'll just stay with you, you know.
26:09
So I think there's a, there's a lot more than just going right,
26:12
give, give us your bill, right. I can save you £86 a month
26:16
there. OK, Well, you know, that's,
26:18
that's a good thing. But rather than how much money
26:20
can I, can I save you? How much more money can I make
26:23
you right That that's what they're there to do, make money.
26:26
They're they're not running a business to, to save money on
26:28
bills. It's a nice gesture and a nice
26:30
thing. But if I came into your business
26:32
and say, right, I can save you, I can save you grand a year.
26:35
But I reckon I could probably get you 20 grand more revenue a
26:37
year if you did. This.
26:37
Yeah, that's a good way of pivoting it.
26:39
Oh. Right.
26:39
OK. Well, I think I'll take option B
26:41
please. Talking about bills, then
26:43
merchant service charges, the interchange, the scheme fees,
26:47
blended pricing versus interchange plus plus pricing.
26:50
What? What's your take on the market
26:52
for that? Are we confusing the hell out of
26:54
merchants still? Is it getting easier?
26:56
It's bad. This is another knock on from
26:59
the PSR right? So there are probably 2
27:03
standouts I'd say or transparent bills, right?
27:07
Probably will paint Dojo that like that for me, but everybody
27:12
else on the majority of you else, it's just if you eat 9 out
27:16
of 10 merchants, if I say we'll read out that, what does that
27:20
mean? What does that abbreviation
27:21
mean? What's that?
27:22
You know, they just don't have a clue.
27:24
So it's just being more and more disguised because of the PSR
27:28
stuff. It's harder to even access a
27:30
statement. Normally people are changing the
27:31
way they do statements. So it's daily and and it's net
27:34
and it's not gross and whatever else.
27:36
And some people prefer that, but it's just harder to access
27:40
everything the all of them. It's like right going to your
27:43
dashboard and you used to be able to go download the 30 day
27:45
statement. OK, ABCDEFG, I'm paying that not
27:49
base rate then plus that and then it's.
27:51
Intentional though, right? Yeah, I know, I know.
27:53
But I don't agree with it. I know.
27:54
I like that. It really riles me because
27:58
what's the point in sort of, I'd have to be really careful how I
28:03
say these things, but people are literally out there now selling
28:08
rate that is not true. You know what I mean?
28:10
For whether it's an ISO or direct, like people will go out
28:13
there and say this is your base debit card rate, this is your
28:17
base credit card rate. That sounds great.
28:19
Sign me up. And they've technically, yeah.
28:22
And there's there can be a full merchant for not, you know,
28:24
reading but go back to phones. Do you read all 100 pages on
28:28
your phone contract? But to pivot that slightly then
28:31
say, I, you know, I don't disagree with what you're saying
28:33
in the, the payments market broadly, there's too many
28:35
acronyms. Stuff definitely gets hidden,
28:38
you know, statements, you know, I've worked in payments for over
28:41
15 years and fortunately I have a a good understanding, but I'm
28:45
pretty sure I could bring in someone in my team that's done
28:46
it for five years that still struggles on certain.
28:49
Stages for 15 years and I'd still come to you.
28:51
But but in terms of like what you guys can do with that, and
28:55
I'm not saying you should have to do this, but the Isos that
28:58
are doing well are almost probably taking that raw form of
29:01
choir or presentment and putting a box around it and going, do
29:03
you know what this means? This arrow, this means this like
29:07
you're helping them to then break that down so they go, do
29:10
you know what? You guys help us to understand
29:13
what the hell we're paying. That's a really important thing
29:14
to us. You are right.
29:16
And it is one of those where it's like, because, you know, if
29:19
I was in sales mode and I go and see someone with an extremely
29:22
confusing statement, you just how are you meant to understand
29:26
that? You know what I mean?
29:27
And but it is true. And then you go, right.
29:30
And you'd like, you say you simplify it and then do the
29:32
maths and the math does the maths.
29:33
But I think that it's a, it's a bug bear.
29:36
But the MSC stuff is a bug bear for people like, you know, when
29:39
we're finding new businesses, you know, he just needs to be,
29:43
it's about the customer journey, right?
29:46
So one of my pains is like when I see a Trustpilot that could
29:48
have been easily avoided, like a bad review or something.
29:51
You don't get many of them, but they happen.
29:52
And it's usually because something has not been explained
29:55
properly or, you know, the, the journey has just not been good
29:57
enough. And I can't remember who said
29:59
it. And I'm going to try and
30:00
remember this quote, but it's a bit like, say, if someone's
30:04
giving me bad feedback, whether don't, don't listen to, don't
30:08
listen to the words, don't listen to what they're saying.
30:10
And it's like, what, what do you mean?
30:12
But listen to how they try and get a picture of how they feel.
30:16
It's not about what they're saying.
30:16
It's like when you say something horrible to somebody in a
30:19
flippant moment, like it's not really what you mean or there's
30:24
something deeper and you need to explore it.
30:26
So it's like when somebody puts a a really bad review about
30:29
something and you're actually, if you break it down and you
30:31
contact the merchant, they're just annoyed at something
30:34
completely different, but they just need something to put.
30:36
So it's like that. Don't listen to what they say.
30:40
Listen to how they feel that that's the message.
30:43
Because if you get to that, you have that empathy.
30:45
It can be avoided completely because people don't want to be
30:48
horrible. People don't want to complain.
30:51
There's a reason for complaining, you know, and
30:52
people have different thresholds of it.
30:54
Some people need a real cuddle and a handhold through the whole
30:56
process. All the people don't need
30:57
anything. But that's where the service
30:59
comes in because everybody's different and everybody needs a
31:02
different level of empathy and a bit more help.
31:05
And that's what you need to be there to do.
31:06
And if you're not, you get a bad review, you get, you know that
31:09
that pain point and you're creating more work for yourself.
31:11
So if you do it right from day one, then you're off with that
31:15
really in the, in the whole of retention and stuff.
31:17
So. You, you spoke there around kind
31:19
of maintaining that customer service and that culture
31:21
throughout the business. Where do you think from an easy
31:24
pay perspective, you've been able to really invest into your
31:28
people to ensure that exactly what you're saying now is what
31:31
the business does throughout? I think, yeah, I think there's
31:34
two elements to that because you've got different types of
31:36
sellers within the business to support, right.
31:38
So the message to the sellers to give to the merchant is that
31:41
we're here to support you. You know, we make it at all
31:45
times of the day where possible, 24 hours to give service at
31:49
different levels. But also say that have an
31:52
understanding that we are miracle workers.
31:55
There's some things that we can deal with instantly directly,
31:57
Other things take time, but it's all about the response time.
32:01
That's the biggest thing. If I, if I've got a problem with
32:03
anything that I have, whether it be I bought something online or
32:07
whatever, I got a problem. It's all about the response
32:10
time. It's the most important thing.
32:11
So I know that if one of you got your phone out of, rang our
32:13
office, now you threw within 30 seconds, which is pretty unheard
32:17
of nowadays really. So then the field, the field
32:21
guys on the road, you know, they, they give the message, I'm
32:23
here to support you, but they can't, they do that all the time
32:26
when they're selling all day. And often sellers, their
32:29
strengths aren't, you know, the technical stuff and, and helping
32:32
where possible, but it's all about the contact, contact,
32:35
contact, contact. And they need to know where
32:37
they're going and who they're speaking to.
32:39
Stage 1, if you've got an account manager, if you call
32:41
them that or your field seller, if you've got a good
32:44
relationship with them, contact them.
32:46
Stage 2, the office, Stage 3, the acquirer or whoever it might
32:51
be. So as long as it's communicated
32:53
how you get hold of somebody and how you get answers, how you get
32:56
an answer, then it's fine. But people don't do it.
33:00
This this whole sign of contract are you, is your machine live
33:04
cool, see you later and and you just don't get anything after
33:08
that. But it's equally not just about
33:11
the seller or it's the company communicating with the merchant.
33:16
If you've got a question on that, that's where you go.
33:19
If you've got a problem with this, that's where you go.
33:20
So they know clearly and cleanly where they're going.
33:23
Because the other thing is people call in and, and ask
33:27
about something completely that you can't control and you've got
33:30
to explain, Oh no, you've got to do that.
33:31
You're just wasting people's time on the phone both ways so.
33:35
And you guys have scaled massively as a business over the
33:38
last few years. That's not without its
33:40
challenges in terms of maintaining culture, continuing
33:44
to empower your people to kind of offer that best in class
33:48
service, live your values, that sort of thing.
33:50
I always like to ask operations teams on this particularly
33:53
because you guys really are at the point the edge of dealing
33:55
with end customers and partners. But how have you handled that
33:59
evolution of growth from an OPS point of view within the
34:01
business? And transparency is the word I'd
34:07
use throughout, right? Because he can't pretend you're
34:12
not human mistakes we made along the way.
34:15
But when you're growing so quickly, you just have to
34:18
prioritize in that moment, what is the most important thing that
34:21
we need to focus on now, right. Do that and then everything else
34:24
catches up. But I think there's two sides to
34:27
it. So in terms of maintaining sort
34:29
of an ethos within the company and things like that, you're
34:33
never going to get full control of that.
34:35
You can try and spend millions of pounds on conferences and,
34:38
and lining up the room with buzzwords and saying This Is Us.
34:41
We've got our core values. It will work a percentage right.
34:46
But we're humans and we have our own way of thinking.
34:49
And I don't want people to be in a box and dictated to of what
34:52
they should think or feel. I don't necessarily agree with
34:55
that. I, I, I want an openness.
34:57
And if you have core values that you must stick to, yeah, it's a
35:02
great guide of how you want to operate.
35:04
But then if you've got people that like have any sort of
35:07
variation in the mind and think, oh, you're going against a
35:09
company when you need an open forum to improve all the time.
35:14
You know, I run the businesses day-to-day, every day.
35:17
And it can be from anything to making sure someone's got a cash
35:20
draw. And along the way you're doing
35:22
all these things, which you wouldn't necessarily do in that
35:24
role, if you know what I mean. But it's good to have your ear
35:26
to the ground. And I mean, for example, we
35:30
don't have an ethos and such, but my, my thing is that sales
35:33
in particular and office work and, and when you're growing,
35:36
it's so intense. I, I know it myself.
35:38
Well, I'm just like, you get so drained because you're just
35:41
hammering it, hammering it and you just don't get off the wheel
35:43
sort of thing. It's mad.
35:45
So there's a company called soother who were like, we
35:50
partnered with them recently. They're basically a mental
35:53
health and well-being company where they're, they employer who
35:57
will basically pay a fee and every single staff member has
36:02
access to counselling. So it's not easy to talk in
36:07
work, especially when you're so busy.
36:08
It's like you think you're wasting somebody's time or you
36:10
know, you might not know who to speak to.
36:12
You know, I'm not a designated person.
36:14
This way, any of our staff now have access to counselling 24/7
36:18
and they can do it in work, they can do it out of work.
36:21
They just book a slot. They have specific counsellors
36:23
for what areas you're struggling with, whatever that might be.
36:26
And you can dip in and out and get that support.
36:28
Because I'm aware that, you know, there are times when we've
36:30
all just had to knuckle down in the last year or two where it's
36:33
been going crazy and you, you don't even look up, you don't,
36:38
you're, you're right. Like, you know, we just show
36:40
television and it's, it's not good for anybody.
36:43
Such a good. Idea really good idea.
36:45
Sales is if sales gets given a lot of shit really does like as
36:49
a as a career and a you sales guys.
36:52
So you always get like that sentence does my head in to be
36:55
honest. And sales is so much broad than
36:56
that. But particularly being in field
36:59
sales, it's a bloody hard job. Like you're not getting fed
37:02
leads. You know that that bank
37:04
ecosystem, even in the acquiring world of banks feeding acquirers
37:07
and it's like order taking that hasn't been around for years now
37:11
in so many ways. You know, you everyone's
37:13
competing with everyone. There's a lot of collaboration
37:15
that goes on in payments, but it's a it's a dogfight and it's
37:17
a stressful job and I think opening that up to your team is
37:20
really commendable. We've not really heard anything
37:22
like that from from anyone previously.
37:24
Hopefully people do it. I mean, obviously it's a cost,
37:27
but like not every cost has to have a profit behind it, you
37:31
know, it's mean. So like you don't need to invest
37:33
just to just to try and make money out of it, you know what I
37:36
mean? And what you will find is, is
37:38
that that will be more valuable than abiding to a core value,
37:43
you know, that makes you feel appreciated.
37:45
And yeah, there is an element of of, you know, this is a good
37:49
thing for us. Aren't we a good company?
37:50
Of course there is. You know, that's not like, but
37:53
the main purpose is I'm a big advocate for being able to speak
37:57
openly about how you're feeling because ultimately, if you do
38:00
that, you will see better performance.
38:02
And it's not that's not what the drive is, but that's going to
38:05
make them feel better and everything's better.
38:07
These guys, like if they have a bad day, it's not just them that
38:10
get affected by the, you know, you'll know it yourself.
38:12
They get home, I'm drained, I'm not doing well.
38:15
I feel that. And, and you feel on the back,
38:18
but no one's dead, you know what I mean?
38:21
It's all right, it's OK. Like that's what sales is.
38:24
And, and you just need to be told sometimes or just be able
38:27
to talk to somebody to just. It's hard, isn't it, because
38:30
we're in a, we're in a position, a role where you get so many
38:33
more no's than you do yeses. And the toll that takes on
38:36
anybody in a job is, is going to, it does take its toll.
38:41
So I think it's a great, great idea that you're able to offer
38:44
that to to employees. Do you think that kind of red
38:47
word? Obviously we talked about the
38:48
sort of community and sustainability approach of
38:52
Redwood and it'd be interesting to get obviously from a
38:53
community element that kind of feels like it fits into that box
38:56
as well. But there is a big
38:57
sustainability focus and obviously you do the utility
38:59
stuff, you you have all these different hats.
39:01
I mean, how's that sort of slotted into the easy pay world?
39:05
It's. It is really weird because it's
39:08
almost like they they, they are separate identities, but now
39:11
it's just us. It's like like some people are
39:15
some departments of the Redwood Group, some are easy pay and
39:18
obviously that as I say, might be changing in the future, but
39:22
ultimately it's everybody is social.
39:27
There's no their easy pay. Where Edward, you know, we've
39:29
got 22 offices soon to be 3 in Blackpool and the Manchester
39:33
office and even, you know, the Manchester office and the field
39:37
and all the different departments.
39:38
So they're about as well connected as they can be.
39:40
You know, we, we're not one of these where it's like right,
39:43
every month everyone let's just do a massive social.
39:45
We do them probably every quarter and someday I have
39:47
little groups doing their own things and we encourage it.
39:52
But it's, it is one family like it is.
39:55
And what's nice is that you've got people who've been there
39:57
from when the Christmas do in 2022 probably had 10-12 people
40:04
and 2023 is like. 35402024 there's 70, there'll probably
40:09
100 plus this one. So and then you've seen people
40:13
grow through it and you know, you've had people working there
40:16
since they're like 16 and then now you know like wow, like 19
40:19
now like grown up. It's just, it's nice to see and
40:23
what we say is try and get into people because in certain areas
40:28
as well, geographically, when you're hiring somebody, their
40:31
aspirations are so different and so many different place.
40:34
And we want to say to you that we, we want to change your life.
40:37
When you, when you get a job here, all the things you don't
40:39
think are possible, they are. If you've got a target that, you
40:44
know, you never thought you'd buy a house, let's look at,
40:47
let's map it out for three years, invest time in them and
40:49
they'll give you the work back. It's not a lot of effort to do
40:53
that. You say simplify it for them,
40:55
Say if you do a BCDEF like that's, that's where you'll be
40:59
and when you'll be there and like, oh, like you're giving
41:03
them that sort of no stick with us.
41:05
You'll be looked after completely because we aren't
41:08
greedy in in any way, shape or form.
41:11
We want everybody to win. And I think that's what breeds
41:14
the type of people that we do have because they feel that like
41:18
there's no even within staff envy.
41:21
They're just like we all want to win.
41:23
That's what we're here for. There's no comes back to the
41:26
transparency. There's no nothing translucent.
41:28
There's nothing hidden. It's just like.
41:31
That. Creates that great internal sort
41:34
of community for sure. And from a sustainability point
41:38
of view, though, with with payments, it's an interesting
41:40
angle. I mean, in my head, I'm going to
41:43
don't use till rolls you that use these till receipts.
41:45
Like how does that sustainability play kind of
41:48
crossover into payments land? Well, I think again, customer
41:54
choice, I think naturally it'll go, it'll go one way.
41:57
But if, if in all honesty, as a broker, as an ISO, you have to
42:03
accept that you don't really have control anyway.
42:06
So like we just roll with it, however it goes, we'll roll with
42:10
it anyway because that's all you can do.
42:11
So you know, when people say like, if you thought about this
42:14
five years, we thought about that a little bit in every
42:18
aspect of everything they bought.
42:20
I haven't got a crystal ball. So I feel like to be present in
42:23
the moment and deal with what is there now it it that's where the
42:26
value is that like. Paperless statements, stuff like
42:28
that. Or, you know, again, I.
42:29
Don't think for a while, really. No, I don't.
42:32
I mean, how can I say if? That sounds horrendous, but it's
42:37
a bit like checks, right? It is when certain people die,
42:41
they'll go like, that's just the way.
42:44
It's the same with, it's the same with coins.
42:47
I don't want to open the colour worms about physical cash and
42:49
coins and whatever, but, but it's, it's, it will all go one
42:54
way, of course. But I, I, I would never have a
42:57
paper receipt. I just wouldn't have one myself.
43:00
I don't, if I do, I'll RIP it up, but equally I don't agree
43:03
with or I'll send you a text or give us your e-mail.
43:06
I hate that it slows the process down.
43:09
Just nothing. And it's just.
43:10
Yeah, just give me the coffee. I've got it.
43:13
That's it obviously depends what it is an online simple that's
43:16
fine, but if you're I just think it's just a day to capture you
43:21
want to e-mail receipt, you're just on the market.
43:24
You're just like you don't want that.
43:26
I've done it before. I've just, you know, I need
43:28
someone that she said. I need to take an e-mail for
43:30
your receipt. Like I just made something up
43:32
because it's just like I. Just want to get in and out.
43:36
Yeah, but no, I don't. I think it'll take a while, but
43:39
eventually probably will be paperless.
43:42
But I think a good while really, because if anybody, the people
43:48
who definitely want a receipt, mainly nowadays it's for
43:51
expenses and things like that, to be frank, isn't it?
43:53
But I think that most people who are, I would say pedantic enough
43:58
that it's not the right word, who want a receipt.
44:00
They'll probably want it as paper because that's the type
44:03
of. Work to be done then on the
44:05
green front for sure. Yeah.
44:08
Cool. So we hope you've watched the
44:10
show previously, but the the grand finale, the shelf of
44:15
shame, Pete, your time is now. What are you going to nominate
44:19
for us to put on the shelf of shame or send you packing with
44:22
I'm. Going to go back to what we've
44:25
already discussed and say I can't use abroad, I can't just
44:30
use transparency, but statements, clean statements
44:32
from a merchants, they need to be.
44:34
So I'm going to put confusing billing.
44:38
That's what I would nominate for the shelf because there's no
44:41
need for it. There isn't a need for it.
44:43
Yeah, Yeah. I can't agree more.
44:45
I think if I go and pick one merchant that uses 5 acquirers
44:50
and have the same traffic going through every single acquirer,
44:53
the statements will all be completely different and they'll
44:55
be paying different prices even though if the contractual term
44:59
that they thought they was they was signing up to is the same
45:02
fee. And ultimately everyone's
45:05
singing from the same hymn sheet, right?
45:06
So everyone has the same interchange fees, you've got
45:08
your scheme fees, you require margin, your eyes like the
45:12
principles the same the statements like you said earlier
45:14
and they're they're driven a certain way to to.
45:17
Too many ways to spin a cat without whether which they
45:19
shouldn't be. But I I think that the, you
45:24
know, PSR have done all this work, right?
45:27
And then the newest thing, which doesn't generally seem that
45:30
accurate anyways, they have to give you that breakdown of the
45:33
12 months and all that, right? So they could easily just say
45:37
right as part of the policy, This is how your bills need to
45:40
look. And it would it would do miles
45:42
more good for for it than. Maybe consumer duty, the
45:45
regulation that came in a couple of years ago should have a play
45:47
in that, I think. We just need Pete in PS Rs next
45:50
round table meeting to be honest with you to to feed this into
45:52
them. Not sure how that will go, but.
45:54
Lobby it for all the merchants. Yeah, normally get my own way,
45:57
so probably happen perfect. There's more to it in that.
46:01
So above my head really, but. Perfect.
46:03
Pete. Thank you so much for your time
46:04
today. Really appreciate it.
46:06
Thank you guys and. We'll see you next time.
46:07
Yeah, thanks.