Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #246: Minerals Saved Our Chickens? Homestead Mailbag with Joel Salatin

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Episode #246: Minerals Saved Our Chickens? Homestead Mailbag with Joel Salatin · Beyond Labels Premium

0:00
SPEAKER_01: It's like saying, well, because high fructose corn syrup comes from corn, I'm never gonna eat corn on the cop.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: The longer I know you, the more I'm learning just how much you've learned to dance with nature instead of fight nature.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: If you're having issues with parasite, you're probably having a management issue that you need to address.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: I'll give you, I'll give you a this this is just a heartbreaker story.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Hi everybody, welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: Stina McCullough, and I'm here with our favorite farmer, Joel Salatin.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: And today we're actually on Joel's farm at Polyface Farm in Virginia, getting prepared for the Two Days of Truth Summit.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: So today we thought it would be fun to ask Joel some listener questions about homesteading and farming.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: So the first question comes from Melissa.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: And Melissa says, I was recently reading Joel Salatin's blog post about soybeans.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: In it, Joel mentioned only using whole soybeans instead of soybean meal.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: In an addendum in his Pastured Poultry Prophets book, Joel also mentions using soybean meal instead of fish meal.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Does he no longer use fish meal for his grower ration at all, or only a smaller amount?
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Are the chicks able to eat the whole soy soybeans, or is it a meal only until they are big enough to consume the whole form of the soybean?
1:27
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: So let's um let's break this out a little bit.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: So back in the early days, and I'm talking now 50 years ago, you could go to a feed store and you could buy meat and bone meal from cows, meat and bone meal from pigs.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: And uh so all chicken rations carried some sort of animal protein in them.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: As the poultry industry grew, gradually they started adding poultry, um, meat and bone meal.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: So this this is this is like you know, ground-up feathers, enterils that they cook and you know, take off the skim it off the precipitate stuff in the industry.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: Started adding it in, and you know, uh 30 years ago, I guess I'm looking at my age and where we yeah, about 30 years ago, maybe, um uh you you you could not get poultryess meat and bone meal.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it it was and and and it was all about 70% poultry.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean this this all happened as the poultry industry was growing and growing and growing.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: And um I had at that time I had already written written uh Pastor Poultry Prophets, the book.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: And about that was in '93, and long about '95, um, we started having real disease problems in our in our chickens.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, to where we were concerned, can we continue to do this?
3:15
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Now remember, we didn't use vaccines, we didn't use antibiotics.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: And so here we were.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, this was this was all poultry rations had some sort of animal protein, because chickens are omnivores.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, they get worms and bugs and all this stuff.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: And so, in a in a production, a commercial production setting where they can't get all the crickets and grasshoppers and earthworms that they might want, uh, you you know, you have to supplement or or dead carcasses or whatever.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, growing up, I remember all the old-time neighbors would tell me that uh when they were kids, you know, back in the 30s and 40s, that um the first uh farm chore of um of young boys was every one day a week, usually the first day of the week, or I mean uh on Monday, um they had to shoot, trap, run down, whatever, get some varmint, you know, a possum, a raccoon, a squirrel, a rabbit, uh something that they could take and throw it in the chickens, chicken yard.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: They'd take a knife, rip up in the stomach, let the chickens have animal protein, because in the winter they didn't um the chickens didn't get fresh animal protein.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: They're omnivores.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: And um and and so then then as the industries started, uh there started to be this this you know ability to put that into feeds, dehydrate, put it into feeds.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: And uh so that came on up you know through the 40s and 50s and 60s.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: And um by you know, by the mid-90s, um chicken completely dominated that that feed that ration additive.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, here we were, we were feeding chicken residue from the industry to chickens that we weren't vaccinating or medicating.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: There was enough whatever.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: You you could answer it better than I but whatever was was uh um a malady in the industry was carrying over into our chickens.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: And and we didn't have all the crutches, all the industry crutches, we were not using all the energy in industry crutches to keep them alive.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: And um about that time I ran into a lady in Ohio that introduced me to uh fur trail.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: And um fur trail's a a Pennsylvania company, Bainbridge, Pennsylvania, and they make an organic um chicken supplement that's highly mineralized.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: About the same time, a guy he's he's passed away now, Jerry Brunetti, agrodynam who founded it at agrodynamics, was showing electron microscope pictures of GI tracks of animals that were mineral deprived or mineral satiated.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: And his whole thing was that the reason that rations had these animal proteins in them was because farmers weren't giving them enough minerals, and it was the mineral that allowed them to metabolize the protein that was in the grains.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: So you really didn't have to use animal proteins in a commercial production model as long as the animals got enough mineral.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: That was his all right.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, okay, that's interesting.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: So I got a bag of fur trail, uh, bought a bag or two, tried it, and uh sure enough, it was it was like magic.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: And we took the animal protein completely out of the feeds, and we don't have that in today.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: All we use is the mineral.
7:09
SPEAKER_01: So um, so the mineral allows the animal to actually metabolize the protein that's there, and we don't have to use animal byproducts.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: So you still use the soybean?
7:24
SPEAKER_01: We do.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: We use the whole the whole soy.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so now the second part of the question, the whole soybeans, so we're grinding these soybeans, so they're roasted.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: So here's the thing: all of the studies from you know, Weston A.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Price Foundation, whatever, the the that impugned soybeans.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: Don't you, you know, no soy, no soy.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: All of them use soybean meal because the real money in the soybean industry is in the oils, the soybean pressed soy oil for cooking oils and all that.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: And so they use hexane, and you could give the chemistry on that, use hexane to extract, I mean, you could cold press it, but that's too labor-intensive, it's too long.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: So they use hexane, and I'll be glad for you to jump in as to how that works, to extract the oil and leave simply the dry, the dry meal, which is a high protein leftover.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: Because the oils have a lot of energy in them.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: You know, they they have all the the calories.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: It's the meal that has the protein.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: So we do not use, so we, so when we changed from animal proteins and soybean meals, we got rid of the animal proteins and went to whole roasted beans, which gave us all of the enzymes and the fats and the oils that were in the bean um originally, and it comes in balanced.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: And so they're roasted.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it tastes like it tastes like peanut butter.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: And um and and and we grind it so it's not whole, but it's it's it's roasted whole beans that are ground and mixed into the ration so the chickens can eat it.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: They're not the little chicks can't eat a whole great big, you know, it's too big.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: Um and so you you you put it in a you know in a in a ration, in a mash, and the chickens can eat it.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: So why roast it?
9:38
SPEAKER_00: Why roast it?
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and just because if if because if you don't, as soon as you grind it, it goes rancid.
9:45
unknown: Oh.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: Because the oils.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: You've you've now whatever.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: Again, you're the chemist, you've sprung a leak in in it, and and those oils then uh spoil very, very fast.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: They're actually pretty unstable.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: That's the same reason why so, for example, when I'm cooking with certain spices like cumin, like it's a seed, I grind it right before I use it.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: I don't grind it and keep it on my shelf because of the same reasons it could become rancid.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: You can go rancid, yeah.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: So are you saying then that so Weston Price, for example, is against feeding soy to chickens, but you're saying that that's not that's kind of a myth because the studies looked at the soybean meal, that's right, not the whole soybean itself.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: So for me, for me, and I know I'm wading into a tornado here, okay?
10:39
SPEAKER_01: But but for me, it's like saying, well, because high fructose corn syrup comes from corn, I'm never going to eat corn on the cob.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: No, we know, we know that food changes chemically, it changes enzymes, it changes nutritionally when you start tearing it apart and breaking it up.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's why.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'll never forget.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: I was in high school, high school, science fair.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: All right, I'm in high, this is, you know, early 1970s, okay?
11:11
SPEAKER_01: I always got to remind myself, everybody, that I'm old enough to be seen as father.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't born quite yet, but so in the early 1970s, Science Fair, this guy did a mouse feeding experiment.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: And he took he took the ingredients that was on a box of Wheaties and went and got them in their raw state and fed them to the mice.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: And then he fed Wheaties to the mice, to another set of mice.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: The Wheaties mice, sick, sickly, I mean, they were just looked terrible.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: The ones over here on the raw ingredients, man, they were shiny and you know, robust, healthy, look great.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: So something happens, okay?
12:01
SPEAKER_01: Something happens in this.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we know, like wheat germ, right?
12:05
SPEAKER_01: That's why you want a fresh grind, uh, that's that's why the industry takes out the germ of the wheat because the germ can go bad.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Realize, uh again, you can speak to this better than I can, but think of how much food adulteration happens just for shelf stability.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's huge.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: And so that's what we're that's what we're talking about here.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: And and so so I don't I don't demonize any whole foods.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: I I just I just don't.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh and and I know I know this is a tornado we wade into, uh, but but but the the soybean meal studies are not the same as a whole bean.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think that's well documented across different foods.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: And even like flaxseed, people will take flaxseed oil, uh, you know, for omega-3s, for example, but my argument is the same as yours.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: That's not actually how God intended you to eat that.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: So they've still separated off the oil.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: You're much better off eating the flax seed itself and only opening it right before you're going to eat it, just like an ancestor would if they came across a nut or a seed.
13:22
unknown: You know.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: Just like your teeth do when you're eating whole ro uh uh an ear of corn.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh that corn is is it has its integrity right until it hits your mouth.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: That's that's the idea.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so so e even with the roasting, it still has um a best before date.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh so we, you know, we we try we try to never keep our you know, ground feeds for the pigs and chickens and turkeys.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we try to never keep it more than um you know 10 days or so.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: Of course, it keeps longer in the winter.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, in the summer it it deteriorates more rapidly.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: And it's a reason why we never use pellets.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people, even organic producers, put their ration in a in a pellet.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: And to to take this and and extrude it into pellets takes a lot of heat.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: And that heat then cooks out a lot of the goodies.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that makes sense.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: Whereas simply grinding and mixing, there's a little bit of warmth there, but it but it's very gently.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can put your hand on, yeah, it's it's not it's not hot.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: But but in the pelletizing, yeah, it's hot.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned that you grind it because the chickens can't eat the whole soybean.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: So in in the wild, you know, like in a natural setting, then I'm assuming chickens would not eat soybeans.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: Is that true?
14:54
SPEAKER_01: They would when they're they would when they're mature, when they're when they're big.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they eat whole cold corn kernels.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: Corn kernels bigger than a soybean.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: But it is something they've come across in the wild.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Like so it's something that they would have historically.
15:09
SPEAKER_01: I don't know that soybeans are wild plants.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I'm wondering.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: Like, but that but they they would certainly eat whole I mean, any kind of whole seed, uh, you know, locust seeds, uh, you know, anything.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, wild turkeys eat huge acorns, but it's a mature turkey in the fall.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, in the spring, a little baby pulte is gonna eat uh grasshopper legs and and cricket wings and stuff.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: And that's why, that's why um turkeys don't thrive in deep woods.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: Turkeys require field and wood woods to to thrive because they go to the woods for protection, but grasshoppers and crickets don't grow in the woods.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: Grasshoppers and crickets are are a a pass a grassland-based uh item.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: And so baby pults uh have to have to go out, they have to feed out in the in the field, and then they go into woods for protection.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's fascinating.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: So they got shelter and they got food.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: But uh but a but a mature turkey, you know, a a big turkey, they can eat much bigger things.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: And so they go in the fall they go fatten up on acorns.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: But you know, you've got you you know, you you got now you got a big old beak of the size of my finger, you know, you can you can eat stuff.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: But that is an interesting question because our food supply is so dependent on soybeans.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: Like so not only corn, but soy in the human food supply and feed for livestock.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: So is that actually even a good idea?
16:47
SPEAKER_00: Like is this is there a historical precedence for that?
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Is that something that when when did soybeans come about?
16:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh, soybeans have been in, they've been a I mean, that's what you make tofu out of, and they've been in China for millennia.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: Soybean is not a new plant.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: But like in America from the beginning?
17:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh no, it was brought to America um I I don't know the date, but certainly, you know, certainly in more modern times.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: Native Americans did not have soybeans.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: They had they had corn.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, corn was the North American contribution to the world food system.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: Soybeans were the Asian contribution to the world thing.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Tomatoes were the South American contribution.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, tomatoes and potatoes were the South American contribution.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: You know, every today, you know, when you look at foods, I mean, just think about this.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, we think of when you think of um tomato sauce, you think Italy, right?
17:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, not until the Spaniards came to Peru did Italy have tomatoes.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: Italy didn't know about tomatoes.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: That's so fascinating.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: And the Irish potato famine, Ireland didn't grow potatoes until the Spaniards came to Peru.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: Peru is where potatoes developed.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: And so they went to Ireland, and suddenly you could grow ten times more food per acre because uh you didn't have to hold your carbohydrates up against gravity.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: If you grow it in wheat and barley and oats, your carbohydrates, you got to put it on a stalk and you gotta hold it up in the air.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: But if you can grow a tuber in the ground where you don't have to defy gravity to hold it up, you can grow ten times as much because you're not holding up all this weight above the ground.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: That's so fascinating.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: So then you don't have like a fundamental issue with feeding animals soy.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: Because this is a big issue and people.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: And and and and we we make a a big effort.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: Every time we say soy bean, we say soy bean, not soy.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: Because when people say soy, they're thinking soybean meal.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: That's that's the that's the ration industry standard for anything with soy, because all the oil is off.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: And you know, now, you know, one of the one of the huge uh things that the the soybean industry is asking the Trump administration for, is they're asking for uh they're asking for more diesel.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: See, corn, you ferment it and you make ethanol, you make alcohol.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: Soybeans, because they're protinaceous, they make uh a heavier oil, like for diesel fuel.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: So you can make diesel out of or a diesel substitute out of soybeans.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Um well so so what i if that ever really develops think of all the meal that's gonna be left over you know when they pull all that oil out of the soybeans.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Soybeans have a lot of oil.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, when you when you take a whatever a bushel of soybeans and you uh uh press it, and and so then you can cold press it or you can use hexane to extract it.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: And the he and and I can tell you this, can't cite the source right now, but there is growing um growing evidence that the real problem with with soy, if you will, you know, in is the hexane.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: It's not actually it's not actually the soybean, it's the hexane.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean remember the Chinese have been eating soybeans for millennia.
20:37
unknown: Yeah.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: And they're perfectly fine.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Do they ferment their soybeans?
20:42
SPEAKER_01: Some.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: So you are you Do you ferment yours or you just roast them?
20:48
SPEAKER_00: So you don't you don't feel the need to ferment them for the chickens?
20:51
SPEAKER_00: It's just perfectly fine.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: Perfectly fine.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's a whole food, whole food, all it is is roasted.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh that's so fascinating.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Because I see a lot of people asking, like, we shouldn't be feeding the animal soy.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: And no.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: But it probably comes from these studies.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: It comes from the it comes from the hexane, and it's just the meal.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: They're not getting any of the oil.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: And and so um so we don't we don't break it apart.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: All right.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: So none of our feeds in our in our animal feeds here are are are are pieces.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: They're they they come in as whole whole things and they're you know, they're they're they're ground to make a mash so it's more accessible, you know, like like um whatever, like oatmeal, okay.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh but but it's not, you know, it it's the full thing.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean even the the um the what it oats.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: We have oats in the in the pig feed.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: Um and we don't even take the hull off.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: We leave the hull on.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: So grain has a hull on it and um it's uh like a husk like corn.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, you have to husk corn.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, barley, oats, and all they have it too, but it's it's very full small, you know, it's it's really tiny.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: And we leave the husk on and grind it in because that is a desiccant for parasites.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: It actually has little points on it when you leave the husk.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: So when the pig eats it, a lot of the a lot of parasites are aqueous.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: And so as that comes through the GI tract, it it punctures these little aqueous parasites and they just rupture.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: And they're just so so it's it's a it's a it's a gentle, it's a general, general um, you know, um parasite, you know, uh amendment or or you know control.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: It's so cool, just the longer I know you the more I'm learning just how much you've learned to dance with nature instead of fight nature.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: It's just so beautiful.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: And you see it prosperous in in this farm.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: So the evidence speaks louder than you know, talk or studies being published.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's truly, it's truly incredible.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, the more seeing you know, you know, the more you get around and your your um thing at the Maha at the Maha uh gala here just lately, you start realizing there are very few things that don't have some unspoken agenda.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean, whether it's scientific studies, whether it's a political agenda, uh, you know, an article, a paper, whatever, and almost everything has some sort.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's hard to it's hard to punch through the you know the the noise.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely right.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean I was reading a statistic lately, I've cited it before from a different source, but they were saying that in the public literature, the published literature, scientific literature, about 50 percent of all the conclusions are wrong.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: 50 percent?
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: I yeah, I knew it was high, but I was like, wow, 50 percent.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: So it's like you're saying, I mean, there's just there's influence everywhere.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: Corporate influence, there's government influence and cher cherry pick data and all this.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: You know what what's the old saying?
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Um um statistics.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: What is it?
24:23
SPEAKER_01: Statistics lies.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: Lie and and and uh and and liars do statistics or something like that.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: So it it does become hard to statistic what can you trust?
24:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is, it is.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: PMAs.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: What to do and not to do for the small farmer.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: So are PMAs good for a small farmer?
24:47
SPEAKER_00: And first tell us what they are.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so PMA is a private membership association.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: And for those of you who aren't familiar with the historical the history of these things, they started in the 1960s with a civil rights as as um civil rights act came in.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: And um golf courses, golf courses in Georgia, country clubs, did not want blacks to not want to have to admit blacks to their country clubs.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: And so they developed a private membership association legal construct that um said, well, that's fine, you know, civil rights can be for the public, but we're not public, we're private.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: And so it doesn't apply to us.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: And um and so, you know, they they were able to skirt, they were able to skirt the and and and trust me, I'm not I'm not uh saying I agree with this or disagree with this.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm just this is this is the history of the PMA.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: So it worked very well.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: So in more recent years, some people who are trying to get freedom in the food space to be able to sell to your neighbor without asking a bureaucrat's permission have said, huh, they got by with it in the civil rights.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: How about could we get by could we use the same construct in in private food transactions?
26:21
SPEAKER_01: In other words, we're not at Walmart.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, this is this is you and me engaging in a private food transaction.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I don't I'm not open to the public.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: You have to pay a membership to get into my private club, and as a member of my private club, you get to buy chicken pot pie.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay, and so these really started to come in, you know, 10 years ago or so, into the food space.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: And because of the onerous regulations on small food, you know, small food uh value-added enterprises, a lot, oh this is our this is our end, you know, this is this is let's just do this.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: And so people started um started doing these.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, when you not only did they say we're not under your jurisdiction for food, but to be philosophically and legally consistent, we're not under your jurisdiction for minimum wage, workmen's comp, uh, social security, taxes, sales taxes, we're we are not in that space.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, when you start thumbing your nose at that many agencies, that's a lot of agency, that's a lot of power to thumb your nose at.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: And so there was initial success in this.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: But as the agencies started looking, they started realizing we can't let this, we we just can't let this stand.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: And so about two or three years ago, if you started a PMA, it was like putting a great big red target on your back for government agencies.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: And over the last three years, PMAs are being hammered and they're losing in court.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: What I tell my friends in this, and listen, you know, I love freedom as much as anybody, all right?
28:22
SPEAKER_01: But I tell my friends, I say, look, at the end of the day, it's not what you say it is, it's what a judge says it is.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: That's our problem.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: And so if you walk in and say, no, no, no, judge, this is not a duck.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: But the judge looks at that and says, now you're selling meat and you have people working for you, and blah, blah, blah.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: And it sure looks like a duck, acts like a duck, I think this is a duck.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: And so I can tell you, four years ago, I was ready to jump into a PMA.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: I was ready to let let's start a little, you know, we'll do a trial over here.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm not.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: I I'm just watching all my friends get hammered uh with the PMA.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: And so uh so I don't recommend it.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: Um I you know, I if if you want to try it, try it.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: But it's it's um I'm that that's what Amos Miller had in uh in Pennsylvania.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: And and what happened to him, I mean, he has kind of won a little bit and lost a little bit.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: He can't sell in Pennsylvania, I mean, so that's a loss, huge loss, okay.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: But what happens is you start down this path, and the government leaves you alone, and you start getting sloppy.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: And um I mean, I'll give you, I'll give you a this this is just a heartbreaker story.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: Um a lady uh emailed me.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: Her dad and she have a raw milk dairy in Wisconsin.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: And they tried to be legal, and they've tried to be legal, legal, and they finally they just we we can't do it.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: It's it's too expensive, too onerous, we we just can't do it.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: So they started a PMA.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: All right.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: And a PMA, see, you have to join in order to buy.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: Because it joined the club, it was private.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, they started a PMA and they had all their you know their ducks in a row.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, a guy came one day and uh he said, Yeah, I want to buy some of your milk.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: And she said, Well, you gotta you gotta join the PMA, and she handed him his paperwork.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, here's what you gotta sign.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: He said, Well, thank you, thank you very much.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: He took it.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: And um, two weeks later he came back.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: She wasn't there, the daughter wasn't there, dad's there, he's elderly.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: And the guy comes in, he says, Yeah, I was here two weeks ago, and you know, your daughter gave me the paperwork for the PMA, and today I'd like to buy some milk.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, the dad assumed, oh, okay, well, he's, you know, signed it.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: He didn't go look at the list.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: He figured the guy was, you know, okay, he got the paperwork, he signed it, you know, we're okay.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: So he went and got the milk.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: Two hours later, here came, you know, eight agents with the sheriff and all this, and arrested him on felonies for selling milk.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: It was it was a setup.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was a government agent, it was a setup.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: But that's the kind of thing, you know, if you want, if you're the most meticulous record keeper in the world, fine, but this is the kind of stuff they do.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: And and you know, you're a small business, you got, you know, you're you're juggling a lot of balls in the air, you know, and uh and and and and this is what Amos Miller had.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, Amos Miller started great, and then it's going great, been in going for four years, no problems.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: And he started not requiring all the paperwork.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: So when they came in on him, he was selling to you know a hundred people that were not a member of the club.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: And then they brought the hammer down.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: So does PMA work?
32:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say that you know nobody's having success with it because a few people are, but I can tell you it's a high-risk system.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: And this is why John Moody and I do the Rogue Food Conference is to highlight, highlight circumventive measures that are that right now, right now the darling is pet food.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are more.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: Here's the thing, Cena.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the things that I think, I think I'm beginning to realize that's kind of new to me uh in this space is more and more people fight, you know, try to get chicken pot pie to their neighbors.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Um I love chicken pot pie, by the way.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: I can tell.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: Chicken pot pie, bananas, and ice cream.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: That's me.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: That's right there.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm done, I'm done.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: All right.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: So um, so uh as people have fought this, um the truth is, I think most regulators they don't want to mess with us.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: They really don't.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: But they're responsible for food safety.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: So the pet food gives them an out.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: It's still regulated, you have to sign up.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: You have to you have to tell us you know this milk is for, you know, it's a pet food.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: But now we don't have to come and check you because it's not really for human consumption.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: Wink wink.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: So both sides, the the farmer gets some freedom, you know, to sell.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: The the regulator is it's registered, but he's not really he's not really liable for somebody get sick.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: And so so basically you throw the regulator a bone, say, here, here's your bone.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: We've signed up, we paid the$25 pet food license.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: There's your bone, and they're happy to go chew it in a corner and and not come and and and harass little little people.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: So I the pet food thing is is fantastic.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: Is it taking off in different states?
34:18
SPEAKER_00: Like so regulators are embracing that.
34:21
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: They're okay with it.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: They're not trying to do away with that or something.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: I think it's going to be closed at some point, but right now, I I I predicted that it would be closed long before now, and I and I think I've stumbled on to the reason why.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: Because the regulators really they don't really want to mess with us.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they come reluctantly because the law says they're in charge and they're responsible for safe food.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: But man, if we can throw them a bone and say, okay, it's not really human consumption.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: It's for it's for pets, wink wink.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: And and we're registered with you, you got our number, you know, here it is.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: Both sides get a win.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why there's a bit of a truce right now in this.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: That's what you're saying as a bit of a truce?
35:13
SPEAKER_01: I think I think there's a bit of a truce in this.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: Because it didn't seem like that for a while.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: It seemed like they were really coming after the raw milk.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: And if you look at the CDC's website and whatnot, there's it's really skewed toward pasteurization.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Well they don't, they don't, I mean, they don't like it.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: But but but it's it's a you know, it's a it's a phenomenon.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a movie.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, people are demanding it.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: People are demanding it, and they're seeing the you know the the politics of it, and it just it just gets um, you know, it gets I mean they're they're political too.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:48
unknown: Yeah.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: Well that's good.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: Finally, a little piece of good news.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is good.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: It's it's very good, yeah.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
35:55
SPEAKER_00: So the next question comes from Jesse.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: Jesse says, I'm not sure if you're aware, my husband works for Cargill, and they are closing one of their main corn processing plants.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: It's in Dayton, Ohio.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: They announced this to their employees like just recently.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: Cargill has also closed three other plants that produce um chicken beef and chocolate over the last year because of profit losses.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: They've shut down two parts of the plant here in Iowa that process corn and have sold off their investment for the plant that was venturing into making clothing from corn.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: Also, there's been changes to SNAP benefits in different states.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know what your thoughts are on this and how it would affect big ag this year and affect businesses that rely on the sales from SNAP benefits and the farm bill.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts on whether this will be a significant impact and cause change?
36:53
SPEAKER_01: Oh me.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: The one thing I don't do is prophesy.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: Um I've made too many mistakes prophesying.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: Um in fact, a lot of a lot of uh intellectual elites make a lot of big mistakes prophesying.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: So um, first of all, let me say I was not aware that this was happening.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: I I d uh and and and this is Cargill.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's not it's not um it's not uh other businesses in the same space.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: She keeps listing Cargill.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it could be it could be that this is a Cargill phenomenon, you know, that Cargill, whatever, um, you know, got too big and they're pulling in their horns a little bit or they're trying to make their operations more efficient.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Tyson has closed a a big, you know, their big uh plant in um in Nebraska.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: Um but all that beef packing is being absorbed by three other plants in the same state or nearby.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: So um I actually don't know the context and I I I don't really know enough to I don't know enough to comment on this.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it definitely sounds like maybe Cargill is having a problem.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: It sound it sounds to me like it's an internal I mean businesses I mean just because a business is successful for ten years doesn't mean it's successful for ten more.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I didn't know that they were trying to make clothing from corn.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, they're trying to make anything from corn.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: We now have like you I mean, paper plates and all kinds of things.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh okay.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: Here, do you want to read this?
38:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give you this one so you can comment as you're reading through that long one from Jessica.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: I have milk cows.
38:39
SPEAKER_01: So who's this one from?
38:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh Jessica.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Um milk cows.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: Barn I'm milk is directly across the road from my neighbors.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Um it used to be nice, enjoyable.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: Now it's a daily circus.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: My neighbors keep chickens in a stationary coop.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: Oh, they probably put the they they tr well they try, but the chickens live.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: Oh, the chickens live in my barn.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so they're coming across the road.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: Why'd the chicken across the road?
39:05
SPEAKER_01: To get to Jessica's barn.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: All right.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: They poop and nest it all in the hay.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: They poop all over my stanchion milking area during milking.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: They crow sing squawk fly.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, blah, blah, blah.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: The fox is undeterred.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: I also keep pigs, and in the past, I've dispatched my own recalcitrant rooster and tossed his tough carcass to the hogs.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Approaching doing the same with their rooster.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the entire flock, really.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: I spend a lot of time beating their rooster with a rake.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: He always returns.
39:29
SPEAKER_01: I chase their dogs and cat while milking.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: The dogs come over and chase the cows.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: It is zero fun being squatted next to a cow when she's trying to run away.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: I beat their cat with a rake and it still returns.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: This is not a good email for the um for PETA, you know.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: Um I've talked to my neighbors about this, and they allegedly don't know how to keep their animals home.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: Can you love your neighbor if you just about daily beat their animals?
39:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that those are those are okay.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: So, oh wow.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh, how many times do you go to your neighbors about their pets?
40:02
SPEAKER_01: How many chances do you give I do not enjoy getting up and down from milking to grab a weapon?
40:06
SPEAKER_01: An assault and aggressive animal.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: Blah, blah, blah.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: The Christian in me is conflicted about loving thy neighbor and doing unto others.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, I would be ashamed if my animals were creating this much chaos.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't do this to others.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: Whew.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: Well.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: Um.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: What is the question?
40:32
SPEAKER_01: The question is Do I put up with it?
40:38
SPEAKER_01: Or do I what do I do?
40:41
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: So let's all agree that this situation is untenable.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: You're trying to milk a cow in your barn, the neighbors' animals, chickens, dogs, cats, are coming across the road all the time.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, probably, I mean, easy enough because your place is more inviting than home.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, let's give her the benefit of the doubt.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: Probably the case.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the animals are spooking the cow, you're trying to milk the cow, the cow now kicks the bucket over and poops in your on your head because the cow is stressed and she's squirting all over because the dogs are.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: Let's just let's I want to start by saying by agreeing this situation is untenable.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: You can't live this way.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: So then the question is, well, how do we stop it?
41:36
SPEAKER_01: She says she's gone to the neighbor numerous times and talked to her, and the neighbor is apparently unre unresponsive.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: Now, isn't you know, she doesn't say the neighbor's unapologetic.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: She just says the neighbor can't keep can't control them, can't keep them there.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: So in Virginia, I don't know where this is, but in Virginia, we have um fencing laws.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: And it is illegal for your animal to be on somebody else's property.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, illegal.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: In full transparency, I have shot dogs, shot cats, neighbors' dogs, neighbors' cats.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: Um after did you first go and talk to the neighbor and tell them what was going on?
42:31
SPEAKER_01: Or like when I when I go to the Egg Mobile and a dog has 30 dead chickens that it's just killed in the field, that dog is dead.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: I don't ask, I don't tell, I don't know, I don't know whose it is, I don't know where it came from.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: The dog's dead.
42:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: Um but yes, we've gone we've gone to neighbors, and um and and and here's the thing, or or uh you know, find out who it is.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: Um some are very apologetic and get it, and others don't care a lick.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: So in this case, this is one doesn't care a lick.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: She knows exactly whose it is, what it is.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: So most counties have a game warden, I mean uh a a dog warden, you know, somebody who does this.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: It they're they're they're a subset of the sheriff's department.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know a lady here who had chickens.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: Dog came over and killed a bunch of her chickens, she knew who its dog was, she called the dog warden.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: The dog went to the guy with the with the um uh chicken.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: And you you have to have a dog tag in our county, you have to have a dog tag.
43:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, this guy, I mean, they could have confiscated the dog and pumped its stomach to find feathers and find out if, you know, but he didn't have to.
43:56
SPEAKER_01: The dog had feathers all around his mouth.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: He he'd he'd you know run home with feathers all around.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: It was obvious that the dog was, but the dog was untagged.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: Okay?
44:05
SPEAKER_01: So that's a misdemeanor.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: You have a dog that's not tagged.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: So the so the dog warden asked the guy, he said, Is this your dog?
44:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, the guy knew he'd face a criminal charge if he said if he said it was his dog and it wasn't tagged.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: So he said, No, it's not my dog.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: Gordon shot him right there in front of him.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: Because he's nobody's dog.
44:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: So not a good episode for me.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: No, I I know how you love dog, but but but but listen, fair is fair.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: It's not fair, it's not fair, it's not just, it's not fair for me to be terrorized by somebody else's animal, animals that they know they're terrorizing me, and and they refuse to do anything about it.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, John Moody says the most the most righteous thing you can do is stop injustice and evil from happening.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I want to love my neighbor, but I don't love my neighbor by allowing the neighbor to be so negligent that my cow is constantly under stress and I can't even milk my cow because their animals are out of control.
45:18
SPEAKER_01: So I would call the the next time it happens, call the dog warden.
45:24
SPEAKER_01: Most counties have one, or the sheriff.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: We've done that as too, we've done that too.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: See this neighbor, you know, sheriff comes, all right?
45:33
SPEAKER_01: It's illegal.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: It's called animals roaming at large.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: That's what it's called.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: Animals roaming at large.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: And so I would I would contact, I would tell your neighbor, don't tell your be kind.
45:46
SPEAKER_01: Tell your neighbor, okay, this has to stop.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: This is this is we this is untenable.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: We can't we can't do this.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: So the next time it happens, we're calling the sheriff.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because it's a cat, too, right?
45:57
SPEAKER_00: It's a cat?
45:58
SPEAKER_00: It's chickens?
45:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: So um my final story, you'll you you'll like this one.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Will I?
46:07
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: No, I don't know.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you won't, maybe you I don't know, maybe you it's not a dog, though.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: It's not a dog.
46:13
SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's not a dog.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: So this guy up up here, um a neighbor's neighbor's bull kept coming over in his cows, breeding his cows.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, he didn't want that bull, he had a bull, he he wanted his bull to breed it in.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: And the neighbor wouldn't wouldn't keep the bull home.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: So he got the neighbor he got the bull in to his barn, put him in a headgate, and pulled his nuts down so hard he broke the convoluted cord convoluted cords in the testicles, so no, no sperm would go up.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: Um he couldn't service anything.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: And he sent the bull back home.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: And the next year that guy had no calves.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: Whoa.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
47:01
SPEAKER_00: Things only a farmer would know to do.
47:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean you couldn't tell looking at the bull.
47:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he was still dangling along, you know, doing his thing.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: But uh, but he he he was shooting.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, a farmer's revenge.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, farmer farmer's revenge.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: Oh listen, listen, trespass stuff is, I mean, books have been written.
47:24
unknown: Yeah.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, courtrooms, but the bottom line is it's illegal what your neighbor's doing.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: Go let them know this is enough.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna call the sheriff the next time.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: Call the sheriff, and they will probably confiscate the animals and um or or uh cite roam animals roaming at large.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh and you'll have a misdemeanor.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: You'll have to go to court.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, we're not gonna put up with this.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's true because if you take on the responsibility of the animal, you have to be responsible for that.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: So, like, it's so tragic that these animals are dying because people are refusing to take responsibility.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right, right.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my heart breaks.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh, we've had, we've had, um, yeah, over the years, we've had all sorts of uh things.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: We've we've um we've uh impounded animals from here's the thing.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: When you've got grass like we have, and the neighbors are overgrazing, yeah, their animals want to the grass is literally greener on the other side.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: It is greener, and that's one of the things we've had over the years.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: We've had a lot of problems with this.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: And um now, now, a first time or what anybody's got animals, they're gonna get out once in a while.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
48:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we you I mean, if this happened one time, yeah, absolutely.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: It's all the forgiveness and mercy in the world.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: But if it becomes habitual, and we've had animals where you know the neighbor, uh overgrazed neighbors and a flock of sheep or cows or whatever comes over, well, they man, we got grass belly deep.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: Hey, let's go over there.
49:07
SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean, they become roguish.
49:09
SPEAKER_01: They actually, even a decent fence, you know, won't even hold them in their overall town.
49:13
SPEAKER_01: So we've actually impounded animals, and of course, here where we are with electric fence, you get a you get a wild animal, uh, a wild cow or a normal cow that's not used to electric fence.
49:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, they can in in a in a in an hour, they can run through five of our electric fences, knock over ten uh chicken buckets on the broiler shelters, run through the feather net, knock uh, you know, I mean, they can do a lot of damage.
49:40
SPEAKER_01: And so we've actually in the past, we've actually impounded them and refused to let them load them until they pay us a few hundred dollars.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I got your animals, come and get them, but you're gonna pay us$500 to get them back.
49:53
SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
49:54
SPEAKER_01: It's intra it's so interesting.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: Every time we've done that, and remember, we've been here for 65 years, so I got a long, you know, there's a I mean, most years it's never it never happened, nothing, nothing, but you get these things.
50:06
SPEAKER_01: And uh it's interesting how as soon as somebody has to pay a ransom, their animals stay home.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: It's an amazing thing.
50:16
SPEAKER_01: It's an amazing thing.
50:18
SPEAKER_01: And that is actually legal, by the way.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: You can hold an animal for ransom?
50:21
SPEAKER_01: Yes, sir.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes, ma'am.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: That is legal.
50:23
SPEAKER_01: You can impound an animal and hold it, hold it for ransom uh for for a you know a reasonable a reasonable amount.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, and that's actually a good idea because um people tend to respond when they feel the pain, right?
50:40
SPEAKER_00: Like when they have to feel the consequences.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
50:43
SPEAKER_00: That's usually when they act.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:45
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
50:45
SPEAKER_00: Right.
50:46
SPEAKER_00: Do we have time for one more?
50:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so go ahead if you want to flip it here.
50:49
SPEAKER_00: Let's do that one from Shayla?
50:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh uses a biodegradable soap to help with deworming his cows.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: Raise newbie and dairy, goes to West Virginia, have issues with stronggyle.
51:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, those are um liver parasites, but do not want to have a chemical dewormer-dependent herd.
51:06
SPEAKER_01: I want to see if he'd go into detail about this method.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: Have my doze bread right now, we'll be kidding soon.
51:11
SPEAKER_01: Wanted to try this pre- and post-kidding to see if I can knock their loads down.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: Might have to use chemical dewormers after birth.
51:17
SPEAKER_01: And could you all provide a link to the exact product he uses recommends?
51:20
SPEAKER_01: All right, well, we're out here in the barn.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't have a okay, but it's Shackley, S-H-A-K-L-E-E.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: It's a multi-level Shacley Basic H soap.
51:30
SPEAKER_01: It is made from soybeans.
51:33
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
51:34
SPEAKER_01: It's a drinkable soap.
51:36
SPEAKER_01: You can drink it.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: And we use it at uh five at uh one tablespoon to five gallons of water for 48 hours.
51:45
SPEAKER_01: In other words, you can find their water, it's the only water they can have for 48 hours, five uh one tablespoon to five gallons of water, and um do that a couple or three times a year.
51:59
SPEAKER_01: And we actually used to do it routinely back when we thought, well, you always gotta worm them, you know.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: And we finally quit.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: And uh now, if we have an animal that's wormy, and we usually will have, you know, two or three in a season, we got a thousand cows, so you know, you're gonna have two or three that are wormy, we bring them in, shoot the basic age to them, and almost all of them turn around.
52:27
SPEAKER_01: Once in a blue moon, one won't.
52:30
SPEAKER_01: One group of the the the last time we had a major uh we've had strong giles, um, the last time we had a major outbreak was a set of 80 calves we bought.
52:45
SPEAKER_01: We they weren't we didn't raise them.
52:47
SPEAKER_01: We bought them from a a guy in the county.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: They came here, and um, man, they were they were so wormy.
52:54
SPEAKER_01: And so we did the basic ages of the whole group, and two of them died.
53:00
SPEAKER_01: And the reason they died was because they were so full of worms that when the basic aches killed the worms, they hemorrhaged inside as all those parasites detached from their intestinal walls.
53:14
SPEAKER_01: The parasites were all you know hanging on their intestinal walls, and when they all died and and let loose, they hemorrhaged.
53:26
SPEAKER_00: Whoa.
53:28
SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's incredible.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:31
SPEAKER_01: But it was only two, and the rest of them turned around and were great.
53:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, and and and you know, made it through.
53:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, it's Shackley Shackley Basic H S H A K L S H A K L E E.
53:44
SPEAKER_01: It's a multi-level, and um and they by the way, don't they don't stand behind it.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: They don't, it's it's a it's a soap.
53:52
SPEAKER_01: Basic H stands for hygiene.
53:54
SPEAKER_01: Basic H, basic hygiene, all right.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we use it around here.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's got a ton of different uses.
53:59
SPEAKER_01: We use it.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: Um wait, so how often do you deworm?
54:04
SPEAKER_01: Well, we only we only deworm now whenever we have an animal that's showing that's showing signs of worms.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you don't do it.
54:12
SPEAKER_01: We don't do it as a prophylactic, you know, as a pre.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: She's trying to, so you know, I'm I am concerned if she's got a worm problem in her goats, that she may be turning her goats into grazers and not browsers.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: Remember, goats want to eat 80% of their diet above their shoulders, not below their shoulders.
54:32
SPEAKER_01: Cows and sheep are grazers, goats are browsers.
54:36
SPEAKER_01: And since the energy cycle is a third as fast in brushing material and weeds as it is in grasses and forbs, or grasses and herbs and legumes, when the animals defoliate, defoliate woody species and weeds, it takes those species three times as long to recover than it does grass and clover.
55:06
SPEAKER_01: So all of a sud so what happens is over time goats tend to kill weeds and brush and shrubs and things like that.
55:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's why people love goats, right?
55:19
SPEAKER_01: Um and it takes about five years, and at the five-year level, they've killed their browse, and you've started to like your goats after five years, because now you can keep them in, and they, you know, blah, blah, blah.
55:33
SPEAKER_01: And so you, and so then now the brows is gone, you turn them into grazers, and they start eating below their shoulders, and they get parasites, um, uh sore uh uh hoof problems, too rich.
55:48
SPEAKER_01: It's like candy bar, all right?
55:49
SPEAKER_01: Too rich a diet, and uh and it prolapses when they have babies, uh, mastitis, all sorts of uh of indicators of a of an insufficient, imbalanced diet um in the animal.
56:04
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm I'm just saying that so that Shayla understands that if you have if you're we have issues with strong we have is if you're having issues with parasites, your answer while you know I'm happy to encourage you to use the Shackley Basic H, you're probably having a management issue that you need to address, you know, foundationally in the in the flock.
56:37
SPEAKER_00: So, related question.
56:38
SPEAKER_00: I had a homesteading friend who grew up on a farm, and she said that it was just part of farm practice, and this is well known that roughly every six months the humans deworm themselves from being in that close proximity to the farm animals.
56:57
SPEAKER_00: And this is a thing that farmers know.
56:59
SPEAKER_00: I thought that was odd because that to me indicates that farmers deworm themselves?
57:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
57:05
SPEAKER_00: She does this with her children and when she sees worms come out.
57:08
SPEAKER_01: I've never heard of a farmer deworming himself.
57:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I wonder, because I thought I think that means that your system's imbalanced if you're getting worms from being around animals.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, is that a correct assessment?
57:19
SPEAKER_01: Because certainly your animals don't sound very clean to me.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: They're not very hygienic.
57:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
57:25
SPEAKER_00: So you so it's it's possible though, right, if if they're not in a hygienic environment working with nature, you can get worms from the city.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
57:34
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
57:34
SPEAKER_00: So these are probably more farmers who are not working with nature, the animals are not clean, and then they're getting listen.
57:43
SPEAKER_01: The worst thing in the world is the most unsanitary, unhygienic livestock situations I've seen are not on factory farms, they're on homesteads.
57:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:54
SPEAKER_01: They're on homesteads.
57:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I had a I was just at the uh did a conference up in Cincinnati uh last week, and a lady comes up to me and um, you know, I've got all these problems with my chickens, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
58:06
SPEAKER_01: I said, well, you know, tell me what you got, you know, and she has a coop and have a run.
58:10
SPEAKER_01: I said, Well, is there any any grass in the run?
58:13
SPEAKER_01: No, it's all dirt.
58:15
SPEAKER_01: You gotta get, you've either got to get them um protected, I mean, under roof.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh well, it you you've either got to get them out on grass and you're moving them every day, or dump 12 to 16 inches of wood chips in that run so that there's a composting, a vibrant decomposition going on.
58:34
SPEAKER_01: Nature only sanitizes two ways.
58:36
SPEAKER_01: One is with rest and sunshine, which is the pastured idea.
58:40
SPEAKER_01: The other is if you're if you're housing them, is uh the carbonaceous diaper, the deep bedding vibrant decomposition.
58:47
SPEAKER_01: It's the only way nature sanitizes.
58:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
58:49
SPEAKER_00: And that makes a lot of sense.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: So I thought I've been to friends' homesteads where I don't want my kids walking around on because to me, like it just instinctually, I'm like, this doesn't look right, this doesn't smell right.
59:02
SPEAKER_01: Like there should be no smell, there should be no smell, the and there should be, you know, it should be aesthetically, I say aromatically and aesthetically sensually romantic.
59:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it should be it should be a very inviting environment.
59:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're sitting here uh right here next to uh hundreds of tons of manure and urine from the cows.
59:24
SPEAKER_01: The pigs are the pigs are piggerating it.
59:26
SPEAKER_01: Um it doesn't smell.
59:28
SPEAKER_01: You could walk in there, eat a sandwich, yeah, okay, and uh, and so anytime you smell or it looks it looks unclean, ugly or whatever, that's a management issue.
59:41
SPEAKER_01: And we we small farmers, I mean we're not technically a small farm now, but but homesteaders and small farmers, you know, um we have to be just as I mean, whether you got one kid or five kids, you know, they need their diapers changed.
59:59
unknown: Yeah.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter how many kids you've got.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes, so true.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_00: And it is so remarkable.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, literally, I'm right here next to these pigs and those pigs on my other side, and all this manure.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_00: And as you know, I'm so sensitive to smells and it it does I can't even really smell it.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_00: It does not bother me.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my nickname for Sina is our our resident bloodhound.
1:00:24
unknown: Yeah.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh she she can sniff out anything.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_01: And she sniffs out corruption and government abuse, and and so that's why you need her new her uh republished book, Hands Off My Food.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: That is a free ad there, Sina.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_01: We'll settle up later.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_01: So, hey everybody, thanks for joining us here at the farm uh with another Beyond Labels uh podcast.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_01: Our question of the day, I think, uh is is would be interesting to hear.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_01: Have you ever had run-ins with neighbors' animals, uh trespassing animals that are that become a that become an issue?
1:01:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking about a you know, a dog who just runs across your yard, okay?
1:01:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I'm talking about, you know, real real issues because these are we we want community, we want to be friends with our neighbors.
1:01:11
SPEAKER_01: We don't want to be, you know, um, you know, uh have war with our neighbors, but um, but there are some people that do need um strong guidance.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that's important.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_01: Have you ever had a uh you know running with a neighbor over uh trespassing animals?
1:01:30
SPEAKER_01: Share it with us and let us know how you you might have a better solution than I have.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_01: Or that our neighbor that pulled down the nuts on his neighbor's bull's head.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh that's one of my favorite stories.
1:01:42
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for joining us for Beyond Labels.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_01: We hope you've had an informative time and maybe some laughs too.
1:01:49
SPEAKER_01: We look forward to visiting with you again next week.