Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #38 The Million Dollar Question

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#38 The Million Dollar Question · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't find the button, so it took a while for the music to start.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right, I found the button.
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  SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright here, along with John D. Burgess and Terry Summers.
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  Today,
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  halfway through the Gospel of Mark,
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  and we have got the million-dollar question.
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  The disciples have been hanging with Jesus now for eight
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  chapters or for at least a
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  SPEAKER_00: year and a half,
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  SPEAKER_00: if not two years.
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  SPEAKER_00: They have seen Jesus in action.
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  SPEAKER_00: They have heard Jesus teach.
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  SPEAKER_00: And now he's going to ask them the question, who do you think I am?
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  SPEAKER_00: Terry, John, good to have you with us today.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, glad to be here.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, Terry, would you please do us the honor?
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  SPEAKER_00: We are going to be looking today at John.
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  SPEAKER_00: I say John because I keep looking at John.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're doing Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark.
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  It's really hard to have a John on the podcast when you're
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  doing a Gospel of Mark.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're looking at Terry, Chapter 8.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep, Terry, Chapter 8.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, John, would you please tell us which verse we are in in Mark?
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  SPEAKER_01: We are in chapter 8, verse 27.
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  SPEAKER_01: Of which gospel?
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  SPEAKER_01: Of Mark.
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  SPEAKER_01: All right, there you go.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mark, Mark.
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  SPEAKER_03: I know you're teasing me because I got confused about Mark.
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  SPEAKER_03: I totally get your jokes.
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  SPEAKER_03: You ready?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep, we're ready.
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  SPEAKER_03: All right.
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  SPEAKER_03: Mark 8, verse 27.
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  SPEAKER_03: Jesus...
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  and his disciples left Galilee and went up to the villages near
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  Caesarea Philippi.
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  SPEAKER_03: As they were walking along, he asked them, who do people say I am?
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  SPEAKER_03: Well,
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  SPEAKER_03: they replied,
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  SPEAKER_03: some say John the Baptist,
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  SPEAKER_03: some say Elijah,
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  SPEAKER_03: and others say you are one of the other prophets.
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  SPEAKER_03: Then he asked them,
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  SPEAKER_03: But who do you say I am?
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  SPEAKER_03: Peter replied, You are the Messiah.
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  SPEAKER_03: But Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.
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  Then Jesus began to tell them that the Son of Man must suffer
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  many terrible things
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  SPEAKER_03: and be rejected by the elders,
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  SPEAKER_03: the leading priests,
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  SPEAKER_03: and the teachers of religious law.
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  SPEAKER_03: He would be killed.
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  SPEAKER_03: But three days later, he would rise from the dead.
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  SPEAKER_03: As he talked about this openly with his disciples,
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  SPEAKER_03: Peter took him aside and began to reprimand him for saying such things.
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  SPEAKER_03: Jesus turned around and looked at his disciples, then reprimanded Peter.
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  SPEAKER_03: Get away from me, Satan, he said.
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  SPEAKER_03: You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from God's.
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  SPEAKER_00: All righty.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot in that particular passage.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when I say this is the million dollar question,
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  SPEAKER_00: this really is the million dollar question,
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  SPEAKER_00: probably a billion dollars today.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it all comes down to this.
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  Who is this Jesus that we've been following through Mark's
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  gospel for the last eight chapters?
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  And so let me set it up first so that we get a sense of where
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  this is taking place.
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  SPEAKER_00: Jesus has taken his disciples up north to Caesarea Philippi.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is a very,
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  very interesting place for Jesus to take his Jewish followers
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  to give them this
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  SPEAKER_00: sort of pop quiz.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is one of the real pagan...
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  SPEAKER_00: areas in that area.
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  SPEAKER_00: Some called it the Las Vegas of the day.
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  This is where the Roman soldiers would go and sort of play when
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  they were on break.
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  So here are some of the things that are of interest in this
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  area where Jesus is.
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  SPEAKER_00: First of all, and John has been here.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think we went there.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is the starting point of the Jordan River.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a beautiful, lush area.
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  SPEAKER_00: The water is really pure up there.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're sort of in this garden area.
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  SPEAKER_00: The city was ancient.
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  SPEAKER_00: The ancient name of the city before Philip renamed it Caesarea Philippi,
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  SPEAKER_00: in part to honor the Caesar.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was known as Panius for the god Pan.
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  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
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  And the reason for that is that there is a cave there at the
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  headwaters of the
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  SPEAKER_00: Jordan River that they called the Cave of Pan,
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  SPEAKER_00: or the Gates to Hades.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so they believed that Pan was there, the god Pan.
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  SPEAKER_00: The Canaanites,
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  SPEAKER_00: who were some of the enemies of the ancient Jews,
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  SPEAKER_00: the ancient Israelites,
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  SPEAKER_00: built a sanctuary to Baal there.
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  Let me see what else we've got here,
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  just in terms of some of the stuff going on.
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  Philip had built a beautiful,
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  huge temple to Caesar,
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  right up on the hill there.
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  What you have,
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  as Jesus is sort of,
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  let's imagine he's at the headwaters of the Jordan River.
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  Up behind him would be this gate to Pan,
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  the god Pan or the gates to Hades.
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  And up above that would be the temple where they would worship
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  the Caesars.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's in this setting.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, it's sort of the Las Vegas.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's in this pagan, almost multi-religious setting.
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  that Jesus takes his disciples to ask him the question,
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  who do you say that I am?
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  SPEAKER_00: So a very interesting place.
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  SPEAKER_00: You would think that if he was going to do it,
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  SPEAKER_00: he would do it in a synagogue somewhere,
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  maybe do it on the Sea of Galilee and the boat where he's been
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  doing all of his ministry,
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  but he takes him to a pagan place and there he gives him what
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  scholars call,
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  SPEAKER_00: and this is really deep,
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  SPEAKER_00: the midterm exam.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so all they've seen so far, and of course, after this, it turns.
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  SPEAKER_00: After this, now, Jesus officially heads to the cross.
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  And as Terry read,
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  he's going to have to redefine what it means to be the Messiah.
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  So we're going to talk today about this big question,
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  what it meant for the disciples.
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  And then we'll spend just a few minutes suggesting that maybe
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  it is still the
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  SPEAKER_00: million dollar or billion dollar question,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially here in the United States of America,
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  SPEAKER_00: as we wrestle with what the gospel is.
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  SPEAKER_00: So initial responses,
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  SPEAKER_00: John,
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  SPEAKER_00: as you've heard this story before,
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  SPEAKER_00: you've read this story,
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  SPEAKER_00: you were there in Caesarea Philippi.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, go ahead.
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  SPEAKER_01: Not when this happened, of course, you know, sometime later.
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  I think that I think that for me,
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  Jesus is very clear as to who he is here.
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  And I think this is one of the things I turn to when sometimes
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  you hear some
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  SPEAKER_01: confusion about whether or not Jesus is.
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  knows or considers himself the son of man or the Messiah and
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  whether or not that is true.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this is one of those passages is that I hang my hat on.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's just super clear to me about what he's saying.
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  And then I also think it's interesting that we've talked about
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  this in previous podcasts.
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  I also think it's interesting to say,
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  don't,
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  you know,
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  don't tell anybody yet.
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  And I,
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  I don't know how you could as a human being possibly keep that
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  information to yourself.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: I, I just don't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: What's interesting is how in the next verses,
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  SPEAKER_00: he kind of indicates to them why they need to keep it quiet.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because they don't really get it.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's just mission impossible to me.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we may or may not get to those verses today.
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  If we don't,
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  we'll come back to them in the next episode where he calls
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  Peter Satan.
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  It's kind of like the story we looked at a few weeks ago when
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  he seemed to call a woman a dog.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not sure if you're one of Jesus' disciples, you want to be called Satan.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is that an F on the midterm exam?
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  SPEAKER_01: Is that an F?
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus refers to you.
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  SPEAKER_00: He gets an A and then he drops right away to an F. Sorry, Terry.
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  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, no.
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  SPEAKER_03: No, I was interrupting.
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  SPEAKER_03: Now I forgot what I was going to say.
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  Oh,
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  can you flesh out a little bit what you mean by he sees that
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  they might really not get it?
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  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we've got Peter who makes this declaration.
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  SPEAKER_00: You are the Messiah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, Jesus says, yes, you got it right.
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  But what they don't understand is the kind of Messiah Jesus is
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  going to be.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  So the expectation of many Jews and the disciples would have
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  been included in this
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  SPEAKER_00: is that the Messiah would come,
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  SPEAKER_00: kick out whoever the enemy is.
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  SPEAKER_00: In this case,
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  it would have been Rome and reestablish the throne of David and
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  become the new king
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  SPEAKER_00: of Israel or on earth.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: What they would not expect is a Messiah who's going to be put to death.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: A Messiah who would suffer.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why he wants them to be careful.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you start saying the Messiah is here,
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  SPEAKER_00: a riot could break out where people would,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: sort of,
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  SPEAKER_00: you'd almost see it happen on Palm Sunday.
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  SPEAKER_00: We weren't there yet.
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  SPEAKER_00: When the people say, okay, let's get this rebellion going.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's go fight the Romans.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And of course, Jesus, A, that's not the kind of Messiah he is.
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  SPEAKER_00: And secondly, it would be mass slaughter of the Jews at that point.
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  So I think he wants,
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  he needs to articulate very clearly and carefully who he is.
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  SPEAKER_00: And even then, they're not going to get it until after the resurrection.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: So when I read through this,
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  SPEAKER_03: I guess I'm looking at it from I know the end of the story perspective.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not paying as close attention.
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  So I was wondering,
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  well,
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  when he said that to them,
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  did they go,
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  yeah,
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  I thought so.
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  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
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  SPEAKER_03: But they really were not clued in.
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  There wasn't any point in those one and a half or two years
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  where they had a
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  SPEAKER_03: got a glimpse or a vision that this might be what they would ever hear.
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  SPEAKER_00: No, I, I don't, I don't think so.
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  SPEAKER_00: I, I, um, uh, it was so far beyond.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: What they would even imagine.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: Um, so with all the healing and things like that.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, see, like, so, so let's kind of tease that out a little bit.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: Based on what we've talked about so far.
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  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you were to say, all right, yeah, Jesus, you're the Messiah.
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  SPEAKER_00: How would you define him as Messiah?
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  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
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  SPEAKER_00: What is his job description?
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, performing miracles.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Redeeming or saving the Jewish people.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  So,
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  I mean,
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  so far,
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  everything they've seen has had to do with miracles,
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  right?
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  Healing people,
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  putting broken people back together,
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  raising dead people to life.
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  All the things that the Old Testament said that he would do,
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  the Messiah would do when he comes.
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  And so the job description would be sort of,
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  okay,
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  yeah,
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  he's restoring everything.
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  a broken world,
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  and the Old Testament says he's going to sit on the throne of David.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing in all of that to suggest suffering.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's alleviating suffering.
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  SPEAKER_00: In every miracle that we've seen, he's alleviated suffering.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's fed hungry people.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's put broken bodies back together.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's brought hope and healing.
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  SPEAKER_00: So to suggest now...
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  SPEAKER_00: yeah, this is going to end badly, would not compute for them.
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  SPEAKER_00: They would really expect that he's going to be the conquering hero.
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  SPEAKER_00: And again, you're right, Terry.
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  It's hard for us to get our brains around that because we know
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  the end of the story.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: But they don't.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: And there is no nod to that.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I am not the scholar.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: So,
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  and I'm blurring lots of things together from all the years of
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  being churched and
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  SPEAKER_03: Bible studies and things where I probably was listening,
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  SPEAKER_03: maybe 75%.
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  SPEAKER_03: But there's nothing that nod that gives a nod to that in,
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  SPEAKER_03: in the old Testament that he would be facing suffering or,
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's the passage in Isaiah 53.
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  SPEAKER_03: I did know that, Tim.
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  SPEAKER_00: Do I get points?
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  SPEAKER_00: Sure, of course you get points.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_00: And a bigger mansion in heaven.
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  SPEAKER_02: All right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  But they wouldn't have,
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  for them,
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  for the Jewish people,
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  they would have read Isaiah 53 and
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  SPEAKER_00: about the suffering servant is what it was.
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  SPEAKER_00: They would have read that as the people of Israel.
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  The people of Israel are the suffering servant because they had
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  been through so
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  SPEAKER_00: much of that stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's only after we have Jesus that we can look back and say,
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  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it's really about Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, they were talking about him.
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  It could still be about the people of Israel,
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  but Jesus gives it new meaning.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
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  So I guess I was taking the idea that there was a heads up
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  about the qualifications
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  for the Messiah that were being met that they would have
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  gathered from the Old Testament.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well,
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  SPEAKER_00: Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_00: to your point,
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  SPEAKER_00: Jesus does indicate that as,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: to fulfill the scriptures,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  But they wouldn't,
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  from their perspective,
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  they wouldn't have seen these things until after God.
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  SPEAKER_00: The event.
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  SPEAKER_00: You don't know it's fulfilled until it's been fulfilled.
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  SPEAKER_03: I know.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm totally with you now.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay, cool.
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  SPEAKER_03: All right.
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  SPEAKER_03: I got you.
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  So even when we talk next week about taking up the cross,
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  would have been,
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  what?
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  SPEAKER_00: What are you?
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  SPEAKER_00: What do you say?
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Would have been completely out of there.
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  SPEAKER_00: They'd have no point of reference for any of that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when they say, who am I?
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  SPEAKER_01: And they say, some say John the Baptist.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  I guess those people weren't there when John the Baptist
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  baptized Jesus and there
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  SPEAKER_01: was two people standing in the river?
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's, yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, again, right.
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  SPEAKER_00: They didn't have newspapers.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's no Instagram shots of that, is there?
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: and a lot of people probably never,
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  SPEAKER_00: the overwhelming majority of people never saw John the Baptist.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
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  And there were rumors that John the Baptist had been raised to
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  life after Herod had killed him.
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  And Herod was one of those guys who thought that Jesus was John
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  the Baptist.
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  SPEAKER_00: Herod thought that Jesus was John raised from the dead.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because he didn't know who Jesus was.
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  SPEAKER_00: So when they're talking about John the Baptist, they would have...
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  SPEAKER_00: in their minds had this thought,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  SPEAKER_00: there are rumors out that John the Baptist has been raised from the dead.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so there are some people who think you're that.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think it's interesting that Jesus didn't start by asking them,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: who do you say that I am?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: He starts with, who do others?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, why do you think he did that?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so one of the great ways to teach
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: is to say,
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: what do you think,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: what are other people thinking about this particular topic right now?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: What are your friends saying about topic A?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then you talk about it, kind of gets you stimulated.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one person thinks this, one person thinks that.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then the teacher says, well, now, okay, but what do you think?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got the creative juices flowing a little bit.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: You've had a chance to, and a lot of times,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: When you ask somebody, what do you think they're thinking right now?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: They start telling you what they're actually thinking.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to really say what I'm thinking,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: but I will say what I think other people are thinking.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's a teaching technique.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus was a master teacher.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think he's sort of priming the pump.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Some people think I'm John the Baptist.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Great prophet.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you think?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: You've been with me now for a couple years.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you think?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: And it may have been
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: That some of the disciples did think some of that.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: He's a prophet.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: But it's Peter.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think you're the Messiah.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're the one we've been waiting for for all these centuries.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: now Jesus doesn't say it here,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: but in the other gospels like Matthew,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: he said,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: you've answered correctly or something to that effect.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And nobody could have,
• 19:18
  you could not have known this unless God had sort of opened
• 19:21
  your eyes to this.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: But Jesus here in this one,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: because Mark is always shortened to the point,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Peter answered him,
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: you are the Messiah.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then Jesus ordered them not to tell anyone about him,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: which basically means he was affirming what Peter said.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Peter got it right.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Peter gets an A-plus on this particular round.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: the next verse,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: he gets the D or the F.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: But it is an interesting question to ask in 2025.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Who do people think Jesus is today?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: When you look at social media, maybe the people you're hanging with...
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Who do people, what do people think of Jesus today?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: What are people saying about Jesus today?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 20:21
  I don't think they get to think much beyond the walls that
• 20:25
  probably come up in
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: associating Jesus,
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: the man,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: whether they believe him to be a savior or not,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: the savior or not,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: and Christianity,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think.
• 20:39
  that I'm not sure there's a lot of thought that goes into it
• 20:43
  for the majority,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know what I mean,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: of folks today that may not have,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: an understanding like you and I have.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: I don't, I don't, I'm not, I would say just boldly,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: they would be not so much talking about Jesus,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: but what they would think that Jesus represents,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: which is Christianity today that has,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: that seems to be in conflict with each other.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:21
  I wonder if some of the language that we understand regarding
• 21:26
  how the Jewish people
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: saw Jesus and whether Jesus came to be a conquering hero or a savior,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 21:37
  I wonder if that sort of language doesn't carry on through
• 21:42
  today a little bit.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's very good insight, John.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Tease that out for us.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's all.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's all I got.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: John finally has an insight.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, how many podcasts have we done?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: John has an insight.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then he's just going to let it drop like that.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Terry is helping me try to get to some depth.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: So she chats me every now and then says, you should point this out.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we oftentimes talk about Jesus coming.
• 22:10
  And is this going to be the conquering hero that frees us from
• 22:14
  our oppressors and
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: sort of puts us on top?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I wonder if that same confusion,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: you see Jesus over and over again in the gospel saying,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: wait a minute,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here as a servant.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not here as a conquering hero.
• 22:30
  I'm not using those exact words,
• 22:32
  but certainly what he does and how he acts.
• 22:34
  And I wonder if that's not maybe some good language for us to
• 22:39
  look at 2025 through
• 22:41
  a lens of and maybe just challenge ourselves a little bit to
• 22:44
  kind of question where
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: we're at with that.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Does that count as teasing it out?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I think that's really interesting.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: maybe this is my perspective and it's just one perspective,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: having been a pastor for 40,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: 41 years.
• 23:02
  When I started out as a pastor,
• 23:09
  I was and am a baby boomer and most of us,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: were raised in some sort of Christian environment, most of us.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we had some understanding of Jesus.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Could be a Sunday school understanding of Jesus,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: could be a deep understanding,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: but there was an understanding of Jesus.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Whether he was a good moral teacher,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: whether he was God,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: that would have been some of the discussion.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then many boomers,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: about two thirds of boomers dropped out of church in their teens and 20s.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then in the 1980s and 1990s,
• 23:52
  we had this kind of a revival where we had a number of churches
• 24:01
  like the one that
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: we were all a part of where.
• 24:04
  We were intentionally trying to reach boomers who'd been turned
• 24:07
  off to the traditional church.
• 24:08
  And,
• 24:10
  you know,
• 24:10
  60% of the people who joined our church came from that kind of
• 24:14
  a background.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: They were baby boomers.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: They'd been raised in the church, but hadn't been involved for years.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And they found something new and fresh.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: So they weren't antagonistic toward Jesus.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: They were just not crazy about the church.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Weren't even antagonistic toward the church.
• 24:28
  Just not crazy about some of the ways that they were raised in
• 24:33
  the church.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Here in 2025, the environment is very, very different.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Church attendance has declined rapidly.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: What we call the nuns,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: N-O-N-E-S,
• 24:49
  people who claim no religious affiliation is growing while
• 24:52
  those who claim to be
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Christian is dropping.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: The duns, Christian people who have left the church,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: for a variety of reasons.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them from the more conservative evangelical churches have left.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And what's different,
• 25:11
  what feels different to me today is that people increasingly
• 25:20
  seem to be either
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: disinterested in the church,
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: they're not even thinking about it anymore,
• 25:26
  and some of that's because they have no memory of it because
• 25:28
  they weren't raised in it,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And some are,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: both those who've left the church and those outside of the church,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: some are outright antagonistic toward it.
• 25:41
  And I would suggest that's because so much of Christianity has
• 25:47
  become politicized
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: in the last 10 to 15 years.
• 25:55
  And to John's point,
• 25:57
  much of Christianity has become about a heroic conqueror
• 26:02
  and about a power grab through politics to try to impose a
• 26:08
  certain brand of
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Christianity onto people versus the Jesus as Savior,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: and he's more than that,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: but as Savior who has come for all to bring restoration to us,
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: to put broken lives back together,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: to be an inclusive,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: gracious God,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: a God of love and compassion and mercy.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And these two competing views of Jesus right now,
• 26:40
  I think have sort of brought us to a point where we're really
• 26:47
  battling for the soul
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: of Christianity in the United States of America.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: What will define Christianity?
• 26:51
  Will it be this grab for power and imposing a certain brand of
• 26:55
  Christianity on people?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or will it be a Christianity built on mercy and compassion, love for all,
• 27:04
  and equality,
• 27:06
  justice,
• 27:06
  and trying to bring healing and wholeness to the world.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And from my vantage point,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: the louder voices right now are those who want the conquering hero,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that tends to be a more exclusionary voice of Christianity.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: There are certain people who are not allowed in.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are gonna come in, you've gotta conform to our viewpoint.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other side of the coin,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: those,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: and I put myself in this camp,
• 27:44
  who believe that the gospel of grace is for everyone and
• 27:47
  includes everyone,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: tend to be labeled as radical and out of touch.
• 27:58
  by the other side of christianity and um i i fear that's what's
• 28:05
  happening is that
• 28:08
  the the jesus who who died on a cross for us the jesus who was
• 28:12
  a servant the jesus
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: who loved all people is being drowned out by this jesus of power and um
• 28:24
  And I think the statistics of church attendance dropping and
• 28:29
  Christians dropping
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: out of church,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: suggests that that is probably the case.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so John,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: for your metaphor to go back to the times of Jesus,
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: all right,
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: is he a suffering servant who's going to die on a cross for us or is he a
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: conquering hero?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's where Christianity is really having,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: an identity crisis in the United States of America.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so here we are in 2025,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: and even Christianity is still wrestling with that question,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: who do you say that I am?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: I hope I'm thinking about how to say this so I communicate well,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: but I feel like that in terms of who do you say that I am,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think that is assuming that
• 29:23
  that those that of a generation now that have been removed from
• 29:30
  church are
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: understanding that as Christ followers,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: that is the bed of Christianity.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: But I feel like sometimes that Jesus is more of a mascot of Christianity,
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: where when you asked me earlier,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: what do you think that people think about
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think they're getting to that yet.
• 29:53
  Whereas if we flipped it and put him at the head of things like
• 29:58
  he is for me being like,
• 30:00
  I think I even changed a while back sharing my faith by saying
• 30:04
  I was a Christ
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: follower because I could sense that right.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: As soon as I got the word Christianity out of my mouth or whatever,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: or being a Christian, you know what I mean?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like jaws tightened up and there was a thing.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that the question you're,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: I know what you're asking,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: but I'm not sure that a lot of people even totally get to,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: who is he?
• 30:29
  And that's why I feel like this discussion is so important
• 30:33
  because it kind of pulls
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: Christianity back to the side for a minute,
• 30:36
  meaning so that we can focus on Jesus and say that if we're
• 30:41
  Christ followers,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: that is one in the same then,
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, am I explaining myself sort of okay?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:50
  There are a number of people who these days refuse to call
• 30:53
  themselves Christians.
• 30:55
  Because of the connotation of what Christian means in the
• 30:58
  United States of America.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so they call themselves Christ followers.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still trying to reclaim Christian followers.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: but it may be a losing battle.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:11
  But,
• 31:11
  but the,
• 31:12
  the heart and soul of question is,
• 31:13
  isn't what is Christianity?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: The heart and soul of question is who is Jesus?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 31:18
  That's my point is I don't think people are able to get to that
• 31:20
  question because
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: there's this gate or wall of Christianity.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Jesus should shape Christianity.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Christianity should not shape Jesus.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's perfect.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: What you just said.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:38
  And it's not that there aren't going to be a lot of different understandings,
• 31:45
  right,
• 31:45
  of Jesus.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: He's far bigger than one theological perspective.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: But there are some basics.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Service, sacrifice, love, grace, justice, mercy, compassion.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Loving your enemies.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: treating all people,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: all people,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: and all means all,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: with dignity and respect as people created in the image of God.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: These are non-negotiables as far as Jesus was concerned.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I've said this many times,
• 32:21
  when Jesus would get angry with the religious leaders is when
• 32:24
  they violated those non-negotiables,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: when they were condemning,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: when they excluded people,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: when they tried to use power over people.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's what got Jesus angry.
• 32:36
  That's what made God angry in the Old Testament was when the
• 32:40
  Jewish people
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: neglected to care for the vulnerable,
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: the widows,
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: the orphans,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: the strangers,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: the least of these.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's what made God angry.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the non-negotiables.
• 32:52
  And the power plays that we're seeing right now and the
• 32:56
  Christian nationalism and
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: trying to impose a certain view of Christianity,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: that's not what Christianity is about.
• 33:03
  But that's what most people are now assuming Christianity is
• 33:07
  because the voice of
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: that is so loud.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so if Christians can't even figure out who Jesus is,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: how are non-Christian people going to figure out who Jesus is?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
• 33:19
  Yeah,
• 33:20
  those voices,
• 33:20
  I think those voices are loud,
• 33:22
  but it's also tangible.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like it's activating on something that's certain.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I would argue that it's not.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I always,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: around our house,
• 33:36
  I'm always explaining to or discussing with my kids and my wife
• 33:42
  just how careful I
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: think I want to be personally
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: when I am in a discussion and I hear something like,
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 33:51
  Jesus really wants this and it's a certain person in a certain
• 33:55
  political office or
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus really wants this.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's how we're supposed to treat certain people or, uh, you know, um,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: And there's some people,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: that have like this gift of prophecy,
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't know that that's my gift.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm always very careful to say,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: if Jesus didn't actually say it,
• 34:18
  I need to be really careful about attributing to him my
• 34:20
  understanding of exactly
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: what he wants in my life outside of what he said in the gospel.
• 34:26
  And I think that the beginnings of Christian nationalism sort
• 34:29
  of trip across that a little bit.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: And of course,
• 34:34
  we're always all in danger of over saying what Jesus said or
• 34:40
  misinterpreting and
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: suddenly becomes gospel.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: But again, Jesus is pretty clear.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: And Paul is pretty clear.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Love your enemies.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Pray for those who persecute you.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Take care of those who are vulnerable.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: serve, don't seek power, serve.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And if you've got power, serve.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's all pretty clear in the gospel.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever you've done to the least of these, you've done to me.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever you haven't done to the least of these, you've not done for me.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's all pretty clear.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that most people would resonate with something like that.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know that right now,
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: if you say Jesus to people,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: that that's the first thing that comes to mind for them.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think it's also good to remember
• 35:40
  And I'm going to totally butcher the language here,
• 35:42
  but I think it was C.S.
• 35:44
  Lewis that talks about sort of this cultural or historical
• 35:47
  superiority trap that we
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: can fall into.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: But to simplify it all,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: what I mean is everything that you just said,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Tim,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: was true when Jesus said it.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And when Jesus said it, there were people that hated other people.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: There were people that hated other people's politics.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: There were people that were grossed out, didn't understand other people.
• 36:08
  There were people that didn't want those kind of people over on
• 36:11
  our side of the block.
• 36:13
  So all of that stuff was happening when he said that as well
• 36:16
  2,000 years ago.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what got him killed.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for tuning into the podcast, everybody.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to lose your life, love people.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's what Jesus is saying.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, again, this is why I say it's the billion-dollar question.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Who is Jesus?
• 36:46
  And the way we answer that question determines the way that we
• 36:54
  live our lives.
• 36:57
  And I would also say the way we live our lives should say to
• 37:00
  people what we believe
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: about Jesus.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Say that again?
• 37:05
  The way we live our lives should say to people what we believe
• 37:07
  about Jesus.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there you go.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe say it another way.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: If people know that we're Christians,
• 37:13
  they'll look at us and the way that we live our lives will tell
• 37:15
  them what we
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: believe about Jesus.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're angry...
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: If we're grievance-oriented,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: if we're constantly condemning certain people,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: excluding certain people,
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to say,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: that's who Jesus is then.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: But if we're loving and compassionate to the best of our ability,
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: which none of us do it perfectly,
• 37:38
  if we stand on the side of those who don't have a voice and
• 37:43
  we're hanging out with
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: sinners and tax collectors,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: they'll say,
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: maybe that's what Jesus is like.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So who do you say that I am?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to,
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: next time we get together then,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: and we're going to pick up on that second part where Peter,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: who got himself a good,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: strong A plus in a matter of moments,
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: goes from star pupil to Satan.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to find that, how that all happened next time.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: You've been listening to the Wonder of Parenting podcast.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: we haven't done the Morse code for a while,
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: so we'll take that out with the Morse code there.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm with John Burgess, Terry Summers, and I'm Tim Wright.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoy this podcast, please share with... What happened?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: I lost it.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'll put it back again.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Share this podcast with your friends, Spotify, Apple, or just share it.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, everybody.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having problems with the buttons today.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: See you all.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.