Latest / The Joe Rogan Experience / #2546 - Michael Button

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#2546 - Michael Button · The Joe Rogan Experience

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: by night, all day.
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  Speaker 2: Hey, good to see you, brother. What's going on?
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Good, man. It's been a wild year for me.
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  Speaker 2: I bet it has been.
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  Speaker 1: Since I was last here, I mean, I've seen my
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  Speaker 1: YouTube growth in numbers I couldn't have imagined before. I've
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  Speaker 1: met so many cool people. I've managed to get to
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  Speaker 1: a point where it's now my job to research and
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  Speaker 1: investigate ancient history and the vast mysteries of our past.
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  Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean, that's something I was doing for
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  Speaker 1: free before. So the fact that I'm now able to
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  Speaker 1: do that full time is just an immense privilege. And
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  Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to everyone that's helped me get there,
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  Speaker 1: including you.
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  Speaker 2: Well, you're putting out fantastic content.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: And it's such an interesting subject. And the giant blind
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  Speaker 2: spot that the mainstream archaeologists have left has allowed all
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  Speaker 2: these people to go through and get a much larger
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  Speaker 2: audience even than them. And it's really important when someone
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  Speaker 2: like you does it because you're so thorough and you're
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  Speaker 2: so objective and you're so measured in the way you
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  Speaker 2: describe these things and talk about these things. There's no
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  Speaker 2: fantastic claims, no hyperbole. It's all very well laid out.
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  Speaker 2: And even when you go to like extreme possibilities of
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  Speaker 2: these things, it's very measured. So I really appreciate that.
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  Speaker 1: Well, thank you. I appreciate you saying that. And Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm always trying to make it as good
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  Speaker 1: as I possibly can. And I try and listen to
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  Speaker 1: what people say and try and improve. And I don't
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  Speaker 1: think I've reached like the peak of where I could
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  Speaker 1: possibly be, but you know, I'm trying my hardest, but
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  Speaker 1: it's not just that. I mean, as you say, I
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  Speaker 1: think there are so many people out there and now
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  Speaker 1: that I'm in this position, I've seen it firsthand. There
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  Speaker 1: are like millions and millions of people around the world
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  Speaker 1: that are deeply fascinated by these questions, by the vast
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  Speaker 1: mysteries of our past.
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  Speaker 2: So As well they should be. And they also know
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  Speaker 2: that we're getting a very narrow version of it from
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  Speaker 2: mainstream academics. And they're so determined to cling to their
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  Speaker 2: timelines and cling to this notion that anything new that's
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  Speaker 2: discovered by people outside of their little circle can't be accurate.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that's so silly. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I think someone like me has the kind
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  Speaker 1: of advantage of the fact that because I, you know,
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  Speaker 1: didn't continue my career in academia or I wasn't in academia,
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  Speaker 1: but that was the pathway that I was on. Because
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  Speaker 1: I've gone independent now, I kind of have the freedom,
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  Speaker 1: if you like, to talk about these ideas in a
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  Speaker 1: much more open way than maybe I would have been
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  Speaker 1: able to if I was, well, wouldn't have been able
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  Speaker 1: to if I was still in academia, because, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I'm not restricted by funding or I'm not restricted by,
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  Speaker 1: Even the pressures of people working in academia hating on me,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I get a lot of hate anyway, but
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I think I have that freedom to almost
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  Speaker 1: come at things from a completely open-minded perspective and speak
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  Speaker 1: about these ideas without any restrictions. And I think that
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  Speaker 1: is the advantage that I have that academics perhaps don't.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm in a great place.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So let's get into it. So in the last year,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of wild stuff has been discovered, which is
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  Speaker 2: really exciting. It's so interesting how quick this stuff is moving.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's wild.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, there's been, I think, two papers in particular
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  Speaker 1: that have come out in the year since I was
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  Speaker 1: last here on the show that I think have huge
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  Speaker 1: ramifications for how we view history. So, I mean, I
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  Speaker 1: don't know where to start. I mean, I think we
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  Speaker 1: should start like this. I think As things currently stand,
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  Speaker 1: there are three huge questions that archaeology cannot answer. And
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  Speaker 1: it's interesting because these three questions we used to think
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  Speaker 1: we had an answer to, but in light of new discoveries,
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  Speaker 1: in light of new evidence coming up, we no longer
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  Speaker 1: have the answer to these questions. And I think that's
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  Speaker 1: fascinating because it's almost like the rug has been pulled
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  Speaker 1: out from underneath our understanding of human history, but on
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  Speaker 1: the surface, it's kind of like business as usual.
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  Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? So what are these questions?
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  Speaker 1: So, I mean, and this is just coming from me, right?
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  Speaker 1: So the caveat on the whole conversation, I'm not an academic,
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  Speaker 1: I'm not a professional archaeologist. I'm just, I mean, I
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  Speaker 1: have a degree in ancient history, but I think my
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  Speaker 1: main qualification is that I'm a super nerd for all
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  Speaker 1: this stuff. And I spent my whole life researching it.
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  Speaker 1: So that's the caveat on everything. So don't take what
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  Speaker 1: I say as gospel. And I always encourage people to
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  Speaker 1: go and look at the actual archaeology, go and read
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  Speaker 1: the journals, read the papers and go investigate what yourself,
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  Speaker 1: for yourself, like listen to what I say, but don't
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  Speaker 1: take what I say as gospel, because at the end
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  Speaker 1: of the day, I'm just a YouTuber, you know? So
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  Speaker 1: that's the caveat I want to put on it. But
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  Speaker 1: from my mind, these are the three questions that I
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  Speaker 1: think archaeology can no longer answer, but used to think
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  Speaker 1: it had an answer for. So the first question is,
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  Speaker 1: and we spoke about this a little bit last time,
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  Speaker 1: is the fascinating question of why after hundreds and hundreds
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  Speaker 1: and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years of human
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  Speaker 1: beings like us being on this planet, why did it
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  Speaker 1: take so long for civilization to emerge? And then why,
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  Speaker 1: when it did, did it emerge in all these different
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  Speaker 1: unconnected locations all over the globe at pretty much the
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  Speaker 1: exact same time? So we see civilization flourishing in Mesoamerica.
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  Speaker 1: We see civilization flourishing in South America, in Egypt, in
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  Speaker 1: the Indus Valley, in Mesopotamia, in ancient India, in ancient China,
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  Speaker 1: all around about the same time, give or take a
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  Speaker 1: thousand or so years. But compared to the time span
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  Speaker 1: of human beings on this planet, you know, 300,000 years
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  Speaker 1: plus for modern humans. And I would argue some of
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  Speaker 1: these papers are showing that it could be a lot
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  Speaker 1: longer than that. Why, after so long, did civilization suddenly
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  Speaker 1: crop up all over the place? And we no longer
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  Speaker 1: can answer that question in light of new discoveries. So
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  Speaker 1: that's question one. Why does civilization emerge everywhere all at
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  Speaker 1: once after so long of not doing so? Question two is.
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  Speaker 1: How old is human intelligence? How long have humans been intelligent?
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  Speaker 1: How long has a mind like ours really inhabited this planet?
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  Speaker 1: And I think two papers in particular that have come
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  Speaker 1: out in the 12 months since I was here have
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  Speaker 1: huge ramifications for that question. And also combining to that
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  Speaker 1: is the question of other human species. How intelligent were
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  Speaker 1: other human species? Because we used to think that we
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  Speaker 1: were the smart ones.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, our name.
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  Speaker 1: homo sapiens literally translates to wise man which is a
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  Speaker 1: incredibly humble thing for us to say about ourselves but
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  Speaker 1: but yeah so so that's question two how old is
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  Speaker 1: human intelligence and again i think the answer is we
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  Speaker 1: don't have the answer anymore um so that's that's really
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  Speaker 1: fascinating and then question three is when did humans first
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  Speaker 1: reach the more isolated land masses so that's the americas
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  Speaker 1: where we are right now and also australia which is
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  Speaker 1: perhaps less important but still interesting. And again, we don't
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  Speaker 1: have the answer for that anymore. And I think whatever
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  Speaker 1: the answer is to these three questions, why does civilization
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  Speaker 1: appear everywhere all at once? How old is human intelligence?
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  Speaker 1: And when did humans first reach the more isolated parts
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  Speaker 1: of the world? The answer to those questions, whatever it is,
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  Speaker 1: I think is fundamentally important because whatever the answer is,
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  Speaker 1: is the reason we're all here, right? It's the reason
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  Speaker 1: we all live in this civilization. It's the reason we
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  Speaker 1: all enjoy the fruits of everything that we exist in today.
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  Speaker 1: And yet we don't know the answer anymore. But as
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  Speaker 1: I said, on the surface, everyone's kind of carrying on
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  Speaker 1: like it's business as usual, but we no longer know
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  Speaker 1: the answer to the most fundamental questions of how we
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  Speaker 1: got here. So, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So for question number one, why did all of these
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  Speaker 2: civilizations emerge roughly the same time? What do you think?
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  Speaker 2: Do you think that this is incorrect and that these
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  Speaker 2: civilizations probably existed far earlier than that, but there's no
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  Speaker 2: evidence of them because of time and just erosion and
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: natural catastrophes and fill in the blank, all the factors. And,
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  Speaker 2: or we have not discovered some of these yet, like
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  Speaker 2: some of the weirdness of the Amazon, you know, as
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  Speaker 2: they find these what would appear to be the grids
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  Speaker 2: of ancient cities that are hidden in the jungle that
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  Speaker 2: they're discovering with LIDAR and these other technologies that were
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  Speaker 2: unavailable until fairly recently. So we know that not only
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  Speaker 2: was the Amazon filled with people, but it was filled
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  Speaker 2: with millions of people. And that's crazy. That is a
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  Speaker 2: crazy shift in the way we used to look at
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  Speaker 2: the Amazon just a few decades ago. And, We don't
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  Speaker 2: know who these people were. We don't know. Like if
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  Speaker 2: you go really far back, like the Olmecs is just
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  Speaker 2: a word. We gave them that word. We don't know
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  Speaker 2: what the fuck they were doing. We have no idea
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  Speaker 2: what they looked like. We know some of the heads
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  Speaker 2: look roughly either Polynesian or perhaps even African. It's very strange.
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  Speaker 2: Very strange. Big giant heads that are left behind. And
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  Speaker 2: that's like the cornerstone of what we understand about the civilization. Okay. What?
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  Speaker 2: How long? 6,000 years we think. Who knows? It's just
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  Speaker 2: a rough guess. Like there's really nothing to go on.
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  Speaker 2: Do you think that this is just like as far
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  Speaker 2: back as we can find stuff? Or do you think,
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  Speaker 2: what do you think?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I think in terms of the civilization question, I
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  Speaker 1: think it's just, I think it's an old idea that
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  Speaker 1: we kind of drew this line. And the line is
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  Speaker 1: the invention of writing, right? So it's around 3000, 4000 B.C.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: was the invention of writing or supposedly was the invention
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  Speaker 1: of writing. And that in the 20th century was kind
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  Speaker 1: of given as the marker of civilization. We were finding
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  Speaker 1: all these civilizations in the 20th century. like ancient Sumer.
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  Speaker 1: And so that was kind of given as the start
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  Speaker 1: of civilization. But I think in terms of like more
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  Speaker 1: recent stuff, so 3000 BC back to like 12,000 BC,
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  Speaker 1: I think the answer is that clearly civilization is older.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, considering we see things like Tash Tapella, Quebecly Tepe, 12,000
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  Speaker 1: years ago. I think that is a civilization. I think
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  Speaker 1: over time that will come to be accepted as a civilization.
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  Speaker 1: And I think whatever you want to define civilization as,
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  Speaker 1: I think we can now clearly say that it did
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  Speaker 1: exist 12,000 years ago rather than 6,000 years ago. So
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: that's a kind of doubling of the timeline. In terms
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: of going back much further than that, I think then
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: you get into kind of like purely hypothetical scenarios, like
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  Speaker 1: is it possible? And that's when I think things like
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  Speaker 1: the history of human intelligence start to come into play
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  Speaker 1: because It was incredibly recently that we thought humans were
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  Speaker 1: only got intelligent. We thought humans were young, like only 100,000
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  Speaker 1: years old, only a few decades ago. And now we
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  Speaker 1: know we're much older than that. And so this is
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  Speaker 1: what I mean about everything kind of being back on
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  Speaker 1: the table again, because we now have an incredibly increased
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  Speaker 1: time span of human intelligence that I would argue, and
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  Speaker 1: I'll come to this later, stretches over a million years.
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  Speaker 1: And yet the old idea, which is still sort of
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  Speaker 1: in place, but I think is breaking. I think most
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  Speaker 1: archaeologists would accept that it's breaking. But the old idea
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  Speaker 1: was that humans only became intelligent around 50,000 years ago.
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  Speaker 1: And so because that idea kind of was in hold,
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  Speaker 1: it almost made sense, right? So humans only existed from 100,000
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  Speaker 1: years ago, then got smart 50,000 years ago. Then the
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  Speaker 1: climate got good around 14,000 years ago. we see the
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  Speaker 1: agricultural revolution and the emergence of the first civilizations. Like
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  Speaker 1: it was very neat. Do you know what I mean?
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  Speaker 1: But now in light of new evidence and in light
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  Speaker 1: of new discoveries, suddenly everything's back on the table. Suddenly
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  Speaker 1: the whole time span of prehistory or not the whole
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  Speaker 1: of prehistory, but I would argue, and I'll get onto
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  Speaker 1: why I think this later. I would argue that the
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  Speaker 1: time span of human intelligence has increased by 20 times
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  Speaker 1: from 50,000 to over a million years. And I'll explain
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  Speaker 1: why in a minute, but I think that puts everything
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  Speaker 1: back on the table i think that the possibilities of
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  Speaker 1: prehistory are are so vast now because of our understanding
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  Speaker 1: has shifted so dramatically in the last few decades and
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  Speaker 1: i don't think anyone's really talking about it and that's
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  Speaker 1: kind of why i do what i do because i
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: really want to bang this drum if you like that
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  Speaker 1: everything's back on the table as i say and so
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  Speaker 1: yeah i don't know i kind of got a bit
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  Speaker 1: sidetracked there from the original.
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  Speaker 2: Question well that's a no you it's a great start
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  Speaker 2: um Jesse Michaels was here yesterday and he had a
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  Speaker 2: really fascinating theory. I don't know if it's, is that
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  Speaker 2: his theory or is it someone else's theory, the ergot theory?
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  Speaker 2: His theory was that he believes that agriculture and that
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  Speaker 2: as they started agriculture wasn't just significant in that you
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: could like stay in one place and you would have
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: food and you always had a reliable diet. You didn't
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: have to worry about starving to death. And then you,
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  Speaker 2: because you had That sort of relaxation that came with that.
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  Speaker 2: You could start inventing things and building things and civilization
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  Speaker 2: would advance. He thinks it's also because ergot grows on
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  Speaker 2: these different wheats and barleys and grains and that these people,
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  Speaker 2: whether knowingly or unknowingly, were probably ingesting this psychedelic substance,
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  Speaker 2: which is akin to LSD. And that this was a
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  Speaker 2: key part of what Brian Murarrescu talked about in the
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  Speaker 2: Eleusinian Mysteries in his great book, The Immortality Key. And
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  Speaker 2: that this was probably what led to a lot of invention,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of innovation, a lot of alternative thought, a
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  Speaker 2: lot of creativity, and a lot of like, you know,
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  Speaker 2: whatever the wild advancements of the time were.
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  Speaker 1: Did you see that they just not proved it, but
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  Speaker 1: they just... They just did a study on the Eleusinian
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  Speaker 1: mysteries where they kind of showed that they were doing,
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  Speaker 1: they did have ergot. Because when Brian wrote that book,
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  Speaker 1: they hadn't proved that, but something just came out.
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  Speaker 2: Did you see the, it was a puma bone pipe
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  Speaker 2: that they found that tested positive for DMT?
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  Speaker 1: Where, in Eleusis?
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  Speaker 2: I do not know. I think it was, I don't,
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  Speaker 2: it might have been in the American, no. Where was that? Peru. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Really?
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Yes. How old is that, Jamie?
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: Jamie?
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: See if you can put that in a perplexity if
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: it knows what this is all about because it's a
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: fascinating subject. Because not only does it imply that they
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: were willingly taking psychedelic drugs, that somehow or another they
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: knew how to make DMT. Like, okay, what? Because that's
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: a complicated process when you have to separate the molecule
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: from whatever plant it's in. And then you have to
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: figure out that you need to freebase it or smoke it.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Like what?
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: This is actually in northwestern Argentina.
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  Speaker 2: Aha.
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  Speaker 5: So it's still the Andes.
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  Speaker 2: The Inca Cueva, a high altitude cave site in Jujuy,
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  Speaker 2: northwestern Argentina. The tubular smoking pipes are made from the
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  Speaker 2: long bones of a puma. They were found alongside anadenanthera.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: and Dananthra seeds, including the plant commonly associated with Vilca
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Sibyl snuff traditions. Residue testing detected tryptamine alkaloids in the pipes.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: So they were figuring out how to take these seeds
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: and smoke them. The material has been dated to roughly
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: 2130 BCE, over 4,000 years ago. That makes the find
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: amongst the oldest direct archaeological evidence for intentional use of
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: psychoactive anadenanthera. Sorry, scientists in the southern Andes. That's fucking crazy.
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  Speaker 2: The careful answer is DMT was detected in pipe residues.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: But anadenanthera. Colubrina is not simply a DMT plant. Its
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  Speaker 2: psychoactive chemistry can include bufetinin DMT and 5-MeO DMT in
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: varying quantities. Depending on plant material and preparation, the archaeological
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: interpretation is that the pipes were used in a ritual
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: context involving, one more time, ananthera rather than proof that
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: people were using modern purified DMT. Either way. They're smoking
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: whatever the fuck that stuff is. They're getting DMT from it.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: So they had figured out somehow or another that ingesting
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: it through smoke. Now, one of the reasons why this
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: is particularly significant is there's scholars out of I think
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: it's the University of Jerusalem that believe that the burning
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: bush that Moses encountered.
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  Speaker 1: Some kind of psychedelic.
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  Speaker 2: That's what that's exactly what they think. They think the
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  Speaker 2: translation was it was. They believe it was possibly the
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: acacia tree, which is apparently rich in DMT, so that
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  Speaker 2: Moses has Moses trips balls and gets some really good
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: solid rules to live by and comes back with them
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  Speaker 2: and said, hey, this is what God said.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's clearly the case that
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: ancient cultures, not just in South America, but across the world,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: were using psychedelic substances. And yeah, that's interesting. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: the theory of whether that caused agriculture, whether that led
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: to civilization or anything like that, I mean, I don't know,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: but it's certainly interesting that human beings seem to have
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: been experimenting with psychoactive substances for a long, long, long, long,
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  Speaker 1: long time. And yeah, that's fascinating.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and much like in our culture today, and, you know,
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  Speaker 2: especially what happened in 1970, where all that stuff was
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: demonized and put on schedule one. Back then, during the
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Eleusinian Mysteries, the reason why those mysteries stopped is because
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: the powers that be were like, hey, these guys are
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: a fucking problem. These trippy dudes with their weird ideas
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: who invented democracy, they're going to fuck this whole thing up.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: We're not going to be able to run it and
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: tell everybody what to do and force them into going
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: to war.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. The powers that be always want to
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: restrict any kind of thought that's outside of the... What
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: they want people to think. They don't want people to
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: think as freely as they can.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Anything that limits their control. Yeah. You know, because everybody
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: wants control. And there's always new groups that say, you
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: don't know what the fuck you're doing. Let me take
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: the realm. And that's always been the case. Which is
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: probably good for people. You know, it probably is what
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: leads to, I mean, not the war part of it,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: but probably these new ideas that... is what leads to
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: an advancement of civilization rather than stagnation that we find
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: in some places in the world where they haven't had
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: a chance to do that.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: You know, like my friends that have been to Afghanistan,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: they had to serve over there. They're essentially saying that, like,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: they're living like people lived thousands of years ago. There's warlords,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: and they control regions, and that's how they've always done it.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: And they live this weird nomadic lifestyle in the mountains...
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: And it's not much different than the way it was
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of years ago.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: It's very clan-like.
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: And if you don't have– if that guy and these
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: groups just stay in control forever, it's like there's no
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: motivation for them to change and evolve and grow.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: There's no innovation Yeah.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Nothing's happening. Also, they're stuck in the mountains. It's like
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: you're just trying to live. But, you know, when we
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: think of these places, these very fertile places on earth
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: where like particularly Turkey, Turkey's fascinating, you know, and many
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: people are now speculating that that if there is a
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: singular place, but that might have been one of the
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: birthplaces of true civilization.
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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• 21:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think it undoubtedly is. I think Taştapela,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: which is in modern day Turkey, is the earliest evidence,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: in my view, of something akin to civilization. And now
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: archaeologists will say it's not civilization because it doesn't quite
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: tick off every part of the checklist. But I think
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: that's neither here nor there. I think it's clearly a
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: very sophisticated culture. I mean, you have like 14 sites
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: there that are now clearly shown to be interlinked, shared symbolism,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: shared religious tradition, same architectural styles. Very impressive architecture, clearly
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: organized labor, stratified society, because how do you achieve that
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: without someone at the top and someone below? And these
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: are all things that we used to think were civilization, right?
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: And yet people aren't happy with us calling Tashdapella a civilization,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: but I think it will get there.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: But don't you think that's just because of them trying
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: to protect their timeline that they've been teaching? Yeah.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: And I think it will change. I think it will change.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: I don't think there's any other explanation other than that.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, it fits, as you said, all the criteria
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: for a civilization that we used to apply. And the
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: fact that they were moving the goalposts just because they
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: didn't know it existed.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: And they're finding residential buildings at Gobekli Tepe now. And
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: that was always one that used to say, look, people
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: didn't live there. They must have migrated there. But now
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: they're finding that people did live there, like, I guess,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: permanently or at least semi-permanently. Yeah, there's all the sites
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: and quite a vast area all connected and So the
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: only ones they haven't got now is writing. And there's
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: an interesting discovery regarding writing at Gobekli Tepe and agriculture.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked about that yesterday.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: The Irving Finkel thing.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, really interesting. So are those where you see
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: those pillars, are those sites where you have like those
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: concentric circles?
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: I assume so. Those are the famous ones anyway. Callahan Tepe,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Gobekli Tepe, Seyfer Tepe. Those are the biggest ones.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: And only 5% of Gobekli Tepe currently has even been excavated, right?
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Which is pretty crazy when you think like, well, okay,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: how many of them are also still underground? Like how
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: many do we know only exist because of ground penetrating
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: radar and all the other techniques? Yeah.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's wild. Like Gobekli Tepe, if all of
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: it was excavated as something like 50 times larger than
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Stonehenge and Stonehenge is obviously an incredibly famous site and
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: yet it's so much bigger and Like, to be clear,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: it is standard archaeological practice to not excavate too much
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: of a site.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: What are we looking at here?
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: That's Gobekli Tepe.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: And what are we looking at in terms of these grids?
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: I think maybe that's the kind of archaeological pit.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: I'm not 100% sure.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: It seems like it, right? Because it seems like the
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: grids go on top of these circles, which doesn't make
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: any sense. So, obviously, they have to go very slowly.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: The risk of destroying some incredible find, some beautiful ancient
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: thing because you're using tractors or something.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Like that is too great. It is valid, but I
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: would argue, and I've said this before, is that Gobekli
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Tepe is a site that has such important ramifications for
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: our understanding of civilization and the origins of civilization that
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: it should receive special treatment, right? Because it is the
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: oldest site that looks like civilization. So I always think
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: that maybe we should not, obviously you want to be
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: careful when you go in and you want to follow
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: correct archaeological procedure, but at the same time, what if
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: a relic, like equivalent to the Rosetta Stone, the one
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: stone that we found that completely translated Egyptian hieroglyphs and
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: opened up ancient Egypt to our understanding, what if some
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: kind of equivalent artifact is hiding in the unexcavated 95%
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: of Gobekli Tepe? That could be waiting for us to find.
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: Have we talked about this boar before, Joe?
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: I don't remember ever seeing it, but It's not new,
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: but it was also found at Gobekli Tepe.
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: It was painted.
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: I think some of the mouth was painted red.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: It's crazy looking.
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: It's pretty close to life-size.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: The whole thing is really fascinating because it's also, I
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: think it's the first evidence of 3D carving in stone too.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, raised relief I think is called. Or not a statue.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: What we're saying about that is like these boars and
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: snakes and all these different animals that are on these
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: incredible pillars, they're not carved into it. The stone is
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: carved around it, which is advanced. It takes sophisticated use
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: of tools. And an understanding of how to work stone
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: to be able to do something like that.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: And crucially, specialization, right? That's someone's job. They're not out
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: there gathering food. That's their job. That's how they spend
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: their time.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: And it's also, hey, how did you move those? Those
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: stones are huge. The biggest ones are like how many?
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: I think most of them are like 10 tons. But
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: I think they found one that hadn't been moved by
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: the quarry that was something like 50 tons. And obviously,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: they would have... assumed that they would have had a
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: method to move that, or else they wouldn't have carved
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: it out.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, 50 tons is high in stubby little peckers.
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: It says clutching.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: Clutching their peckers. Yeah. Okay. Whatever you're into, bro. Must
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: have been a weird world back then. And then the
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: real question is, is this the oldest civilization, or is
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: this the oldest reboot of civilization that was destroyed by
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: the Great Flood? And by the younger giant's impact and
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: whatever the fuck could have happened to whatever civilization previously existed.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: That's where things get real squirrely. Yeah, well, exactly.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Because if that is a civilization, which I think it's
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: becoming clear that it is, and it doesn't really matter
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: how you define civilization. It's clearly incredibly sophisticated. Like, it's
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: a very sophisticated culture.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that word is a problem. Yeah, exactly.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Like, who cares? It's clearly a very sophisticated culture.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: It's like when Fauci was talking about gain of function. Like, hey, fucker.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: You know what we're talking about.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. But.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that means that, you know, the timeline of civilization,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, has doubled from 6,000
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: years to 12,000 years. So then the question becomes, how
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: much further back does it go? Because clearly, Tashtapella, Gobekli Tepe,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: it's not the first thing these people built. They weren't
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: starting from scratch. They weren't just hunter-gatherers that thought, let's
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: try something new and build this. There's clearly a long
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: procedure up to that point. So how far back does
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: that go?
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And for people that don't know, we should probably explain
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: that One of the reasons why they're able to accurately
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: carbon test Gobekli Tepe is because– and this is where
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: it gets really weird. The dirt is uniform in that
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: it was intentionally covered. So these sites weren't covered just
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: over time like maybe the Sphinx was in Egypt. They
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: were covered intentionally and they were covered 11,600-ish years ago.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: So how old were they before they were covered?
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. I mean, that's only the earliest date
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: we have, but that doesn't mean it's the date that
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: they were constructed.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: And why were they covered?
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there is debate over that, but that's
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: what Klaus Schmidt thought.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: What is the debate?
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Well, some people say it wasn't intentionally covered, and it
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: was just kind of like a landslide.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Like a crazy landslide that'll happen at once?
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Because, I mean, it's really hard to prove.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: But what an amazing landslide that covers everything.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I would still lean
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: towards the original interpretation from the original archaeologist, Klaus Schmidt.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: And why did he think they covered it? I don't know.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Like a conquering civilization where like, fuck these people and
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: their beautiful pillars.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: No, I think he thought the people that built it
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: covered it.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I guess you can't tell, can you? And that's
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: the thing with so much of this stuff is that
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: no one knows. And especially the further back you get
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: in time, anyone that talks with any confidence around the past,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: and this is one of my main bugbears with archaeology. Like,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I love archaeology and I have a huge respect for
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: archaeologists and I think they do amazing work, but one
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: of my main bugbears is the confidence in which people
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: talk about the past and ruling out other possibilities, because
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, none of us know
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: what happened in the deep, deep past, especially when you
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: start getting back to these crazy timescales. It's all speculation.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter if you're a YouTuber like me
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: or if you're a professor, we're all just speculating based
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: on the very limited evidence that we have. And so
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: I don't like it when people say definitive things. I
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: always try and say, maybe this is the case or
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: maybe that's the case. We don't know. And I think
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: everyone should approach history with that mindset. And that's kind
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: of If I can get any message across to people,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: that is the message. We don't know, and here's a possibility,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: and here's a possibility, and here's the evidence that we
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: think is true, but you know it's really hard to.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Tell but it also does stand to reason that biology
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: and archaeology as they expand the timeline as biology has
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: expanded the timeline archaeology should probably tag along.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Well yeah that's what i mean about the fact that
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: the rug's kind of been pulled out from underneath.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Us yeah What on purpose means here? There's good reason
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: to think humans intentionally deposited at least some of the fill.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Enclosure D alone contained roughly 500 cubic meters of rubble
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: and cultural debris and particular items including broken anthropomorphic sculpture
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: heads appear to have been deliberately placed near pillars during refilling.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: But archaeologists do not have definitive evidence for the often
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: repeated popular claim that its builders intentionally buried the entire
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: site at once to hide it, preserve it, or mark
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: a single ritual closure. The mound is man-made in the
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: sense that it consists of accumulated archaeological deposits, but its
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: formation involved both human actions and natural sediment movement, ending
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: around 8,000 BCE. Yo. That's a long fucking time ago.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: I don't think people even really can wrap their head
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: around how long we're talking. You know, especially, that's the
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: other thing. One of the things that I loved about
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: your whole video series was the one where you were
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: talking about what would be left if there was a
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: human civilization 100,000 or more years ago. And that's not
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: unreasonable if this biology assessment is correct, is that there
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: have been humans far longer than we used to think.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: So that's the case. Because if we used to think
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: it was 50,000 years, I think when I was in
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: high school, they were saying the Homo sapiens were like 50,000
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: years old or maybe 100, right? And now the conventional
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: estimate is like, what, three?
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: So the oldest fossils we have of anatomically modern humans
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: are 315 to 360,000 years old. I mean, it's the
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: same fossil set from Jebel Aroud in Morocco and But
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: this obviously is really hard to date accurately, but it's
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: between 300 and 350,000.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: And then I think it's really important to note that
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: the fossil record is incredibly incomplete because most people don't
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: leave a fossil.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: It's so unlikely that you'd fossilize. It's something like one
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: in a million.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: So it's such a crazy metric to try to figure
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: out what the past is from these tiny scraps. It's
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: like trying to read a book. by a single shard
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: of a piece of paper with a half a sentence
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: in it. And you're like, what do you think this
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: book was about? Like, fuck.
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: There's not much evidence. That's the problem. But the evidence
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: that they do find is pushing the timeline way back,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: way back. And that alone, you would think archaeology would go, well, hey, guys,
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: in light of this new evidence, maybe we should consider
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: the possibility that civilization is quite a bit older than
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: we think. They are the same exact animal. What would
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: take them 300,000 years to develop complex civilization and agriculture
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: and all these different things? Like why would it take
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: so long? And is it possible that given the– I
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: mean the incredible possibilities in terms of like what kind
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: of natural disasters took place, just asteroid impacts that we know,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: we find them all over the earth. All over the
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: earth and some of them are 20,000 years old, 50,000
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: years old. We find them everywhere. What kind of an
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: impact would that have had? What would be left of
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: those civilizations? And all those questions, again, guys like you
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: are the ones proposing them and putting them out there.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: And it's a really good question, especially in light of
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: what we understand about humans biologically. Doesn't it make sense
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: that these people, these just as– anatomically completely like us.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Why would it take them hundreds of thousands of years
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: to figure out a roof?
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. But I think we have clear evidence now
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: that what we call modern intelligence, behavioral modernity, goes back so, so,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: so much further than we think. I would argue back
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: over a million years in light of a couple of
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: papers that have come out. in the last 12 months.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: And what are these papers?
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, there's been two really significant papers, I think,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: since we last spoke. One of them, I think, has
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: really big ramifications for human intelligence. And that's a paper
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: that came out regarding the island of Sulawesi, which is
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: in Indonesia. And this is in relation to human seafaring.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Seafaring was always thought to be an exclusively sapien strait,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: exclusively modern human strait, because it's a really hard thing
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: to do, right? You need to be quite clever to
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: build a boat, to build something that's sophisticated enough to
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: be seaworthy, to get across ocean boundaries and to reach
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: isolated land masses. And we always thought that was only
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: sapiens until very recently. But a paper came out in
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: August last year. You actually sent it to me. Yeah,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I don't think you sent me a post that was
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: about stone tools that was found. And I was like,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: that's interesting. I clicked on the paper. And then I
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, wow, look where these stone tools were found.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: And it was really, really interesting because they were found
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: on Sulawesi. And Sulawesi is an island that crucially sits
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: east of something called the Wallace Line, which is a
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: biogeographic boundary, which means that it has been an island
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and separated from the mainland for tens of millions of
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: years and separated by deep ocean channels that are between,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: depending on the fluctuating sea levels at the time, between
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: 50 and 100 kilometers across. So it's always been an island.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: And yet, in August 2025, archaeologists at a site called
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Callio found stone tools on Sulawesi. And that means that
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: some type of human, probably not sapiens, but I guess
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: you never know, some type of human managed to cross
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: that ocean boundary and reach Sulawesi. And that's fascinating. But
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: it's worth saying that it's not the only piece of
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: evidence in the region.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: There's also.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: A decade or so ago, we found stone tools on Flores,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: which is just below Sulawesi. It's another island and crucially, again,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: east of the Wallace line. So again, you have to
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: cross an ocean boundary to get to Flores. And they
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: found stone tools there that are 1.02 million years old.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: And I didn't even say the Sulawesi tools are 1.04
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: to 1.4 million years old. So Over a million years ago,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: some type of human was crossing ocean boundaries to get
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: to these islands. And there's also Luzon, which is just
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: above Sulawesi, same region. And they found stone tools there,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: which are 700,000 years old. Now, the theory always was
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: that this was an accident. When we just had Flores,
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: the theory was that it was accidental drift. So a
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: couple of humans were swept out to sea and somehow
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: survived the the stormy ocean and the tropical sun cling
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: to some driftwood and made it to Flores and somehow
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: survived and colonized the island. But now that we've got Flores,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Luzon and Sulawesi, three islands all in the same region,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: all separated by this ocean boundary, I think it's starting
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: to point less towards accident and more towards behavior, right?
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: More towards a deliberate sea crossing because to colonize, I
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: was doing some research because of these discoveries and There's
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: actually been a few papers from NASA on how many
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: humans you need to colonize an isolated landmass because NASA
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: were doing it for like, if you're going to Mars
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: or something and you need a certain amount of humans
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: or breeding age to not, um, have like genetic problems
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: in the population too. So you need a certain amount
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: of humans of a, of a breeding age to, to
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: ensure viability, right? Because otherwise you're going to inbreed and
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: you're all going to die out because of genetic issues.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: And they said it was something like you need 160
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: people at least. And that is with strict breeding controls
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: and genetic testing. We can probably assume they weren't doing
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: genetic testing on themselves. And so then the number somewhere
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: near 500. So what are the chances that 500 individuals
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: were all swept out to sea at the same time,
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: all survived the crossing and all landed on an island
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: and colonized it? That's a huge amount of humans for
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: an accident. Do you know what I mean? And then
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: three times in three separate islands, all in the same region.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: At what point does accident start looking like behavior? Do
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Because what are the chances
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: of 500 individuals all being swept out to sea, all surviving,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: all reaching these islands and all colonizing in three separate occasions,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: all around about a million years ago?
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Not good.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: It's not a high chance, is it? And I think
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: if we apply Occam's razor to it, which is, you know,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: the simplest explanation wins. I think the simplest explanation is
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: that these humans were intelligent enough to build boats, right? Right.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: And that's, I mean, and that is a controversial opinion.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: That's not accepted. It's accepted that the humans reached these islands.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: That's not controversial. Humans were on these islands a million.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: Years ago, 700K. It's just not accepted that it was intentional.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not accepted that they built boats.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: That seems silly. But I think it's... It doesn't make
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: any sense if it's not. 500 of them make it
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: over by floating and surviving? Yeah. What?
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: All at the same time?
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: And this is what I mean about taking data points
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: from different kind of science. Yeah. Because I'm looking into
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: what NASA is saying about humans colonizing somewhere, and I'm saying, well, look,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: 500 people or more than 500 people of breeding age
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: as well, not just people, all reaching an island on
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: three separate occasions, all in the same region. Are we
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: sure this wasn't deliberate? So I think that has huge
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: ramifications for human intelligence because that was always thought to
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: be an exclusively sapiens thing, building a boat, because that's
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: really hard to build a boat. You have to have planning.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: You have to have foresight. You have to be good
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: enough at carpentry to construct something that's seaworthy.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: You have to Trial and error.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, trial and error. And you have to have the
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: imagination as well to dream about what's on the other
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: side of the horizon.
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: And the bravery and the incredible reckless courage to go
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: for it and to go out there across the horizon
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: and reach an island.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: And possibly navigate through the stars. Like they knew how
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: to do that. Maybe.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Otherwise, why would you set out, you know?
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: Right. And how would you repeat it?
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you remember which way you went? Tower. It's
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: a fucking dude with a giant brow ridge. Yeah. Furry
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: face is telling you, I remember going this way. Like,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: are you fucking sure? How are you doing? Are you
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: using the stars? Like, what are you doing?
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: But humans weren't even meant to have complex language by then.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: They weren't meant to be capable of this.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. We're seeing these things. There has to be
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: some sort of organization. If you're getting a group of
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: people to agree to get in the boat. if they
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: can't communicate with each other, that seems even more ridiculous.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: Because let's say at the minimum of 50 kilometers, how
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: long does it take you to row 50 kilometers? Seems
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: like it would be days.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: It would be tough, wouldn't it? And an ocean as well.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right. If you even survive, how long is it
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: going to take before you get across? I mean, maybe
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: they figured out when the stormy season was and they
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: time it for when it's not so stormy. But I mean,
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: how are they doing that? Do they have a calendar
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: a million years ago?
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Whatever they were doing, If it was deliberate, which I
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: think the evidence points towards, it's a clear sign of
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: what we call modern intelligence.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: And organization and most likely communication.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Which we always used to think only emerged 50,000 years ago.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: And so now, if it's over a million years old,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: you know, that's like a 20 times.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: And it could be 1.4. The Sulawesi tools are dated
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: to 1.04 to 1.4. So that's, I don't know, what's that,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: like 25 times older than we think?
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: That's so funny, that 0.4. That's a lot. It's huge.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: It's absolutely gigantic.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Hundreds of thousands of years. Yeah, and this is what
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: you were saying about, like, people can't get their heads
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: around the sheer enormity of these timescales that we're talking about.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Like, it's so long. Yeah.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: It's so long.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Well, another weird one that's come up fairly recently that
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: I know you've talked about is the copper mining in
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: North America. That one blew me away. Just the volume
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: of copper that was removed.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they had a whole copper industry in North America 9,000
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: years ago.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Just listen to that again. Say that one more time.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: A whole copper industry in North America 9,000 years ago.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: And that's the same as the earliest day anywhere else
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: in the world.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: And the volume. This is what's going to freak people out.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Tell them how much copper was removed.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know off the top of my head, but
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: it's a lot. And to be fair, there's lots of
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: natural copper. I think it's in the kind of northern
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: parts of the United States as it is now. I
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: don't know how much they removed off the top of
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: my head, but it is a lot of copper.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Like a commercial copper mine volume.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I said industry.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: It's so crazy. And I don't understand how they determined
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: the amount of copper that was removed. But if that
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: is correct... That seems to indicate that there was some
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: sort of sophisticated metallurgy going on in North America 9,000
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: years ago.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is as early as anywhere else in the world.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: And that completely flies in the face of what we
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: used to think about people in North America. And it's
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: interesting because what the evidence appears to show is that
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: they did this for a few thousand years, but then
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: they dropped it and they stopped doing it. Now, I
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: don't know what that suggests, but Either it suggests something
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: happened to them or they decided they didn't want to
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: do it anymore. But either way, it kind of goes
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: against this idea that we've always kind of assumed that
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: technology is like an escalator, right? We always assume that
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: technology is an escalator.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: 1.5 billion pounds of copper.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: What? So wrap your head around this, folks. Archaeology and
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: date mining and copper tool use, but it generally cannot
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: calculate annual or century-specific production 9,500 years ago. One older
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: broad estimate puts a total archaic period extraction in the
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: Lake Superior region at up to about 1.5 billion pounds
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: of copper, roughly 680,000 metric tons. But that covers many millennia,
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: not the century 9,500 years ago. So that means that
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: they were doing it for thousands of years. They're saying
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: it covers many millennia.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they were doing it for, yeah, as it says,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: the peak between 7,000 and 5,000 years ago.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. That's crazy. So at least 9,500 years ago,
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: they started doing this somewhere around there. And they did
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: it for thousands of years. They removed copper for thousands
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: of years.
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: A bunch of it was just sitting on the top.
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: They called it float copper, I think.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: That's probably how they first started finding it. And then
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: they probably started digging. Isn't it interesting how precious, what
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: we call precious metals, just they exist in weird deposits.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: It's like erratic. It's all over the place. It's like,
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: come find me.
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: And these people use this stuff for weapons. They use
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: this stuff for jewelry. They used it for all kinds
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: of things. Arrow points, I'm sure. They probably used it
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: for all sorts of things. They had to use it
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: for weapons, right?
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: Probably, yeah.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: I think they found, like, spear points and stuff.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe that makes sense.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: But then they dropped it, and then they just stopped
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: doing it. And we don't know why they did that,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: but as I was saying.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow, look, there's the copperhead arrow.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: It goes against this idea that we have that technology
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: is like an escalator, and you just take one level
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: of technology and you keep going up. It shows that
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: people can invent something or discover something and then stop
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: doing it and forget about it. And I think that
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: has implications for how we look at prehistory as a whole,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: because it suggests that people... You know, rather than just
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: going straight line this linear path upwards, we can go
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: up and down and forget things and rediscover things.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Right. And that's what the– this is the alternative theory
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: is that we're a reinvention of civilization currently and that
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: we're the most advanced reinvention that we're aware of. But
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that there hasn't been some sort of
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: a civilization before us that perhaps reached heights where we
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: are or greater in a completely different direction. And I
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: think when you look at some of the stone structures
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: that exist, those are the best evidence because they're so perplexing.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: The stones in Lebanon, what are they called? The Trilithon stones?
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Baalbek.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Those are crazy. Like what happened there? How? What?
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: How'd you get them up there?
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: It's weird because they're attributed to the Romans, right? But
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: there's no Roman records of them doing that. And that's
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: not particularly weird in itself until you realize that it's
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: a bigger engineering project than anything the Romans did anywhere.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, the Colosseum is obviously an incredible thing, but
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: the blocks aren't as big as these blocks at Baalbek.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: And yet they don't mention it anywhere. And you'd think that,
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: you know, a civilization that documented as much the Romans
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: would at least mention their biggest engineering project somewhere, you know?
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: And I mean, that doesn't mean it wasn't the Romans,
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: but it's just a weird thing.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: It's very weird. It's very weird. And it's also weird
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: that like many places, The structures that are on top
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: of it are not as sophisticated, not as difficult to do.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: That's how it is over and over and over again.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: That's Sacsayhuaman. That's a lot of these places. You see
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: the base, the oldest stuff. It seems like they find
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: stuff and they build on top of stuff that was
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: already there. And then you're dealing with thousands and thousands
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: of years of civilization where people don't even remember who
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: built it. You know, like the gods. The gods put
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: these rocks here.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: It happens all over the world.
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: People build on old sites because often the sites are
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: the best site in the region because that's why someone's
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: built there originally. So it makes sense to reuse them.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that the latest civilization that used
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: it was the first. I mean, it could be, but
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: it also doesn't mean that they are definitively. But often
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: that's how we take it. And, yeah, that's not necessarily
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: the best way of looking at them, I think.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: I think what you said earlier is really important that–
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: We can't possibly know. And to make these definitive statements
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: about things where you just don't have enough evidence, you
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: don't have enough facts, you can't really say definitively we know.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: And that drives experts crazy because they don't like to
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: do that. They don't like to let that go, especially humans,
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: especially men. They love the ego that comes with being
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: the one who has the information, the expert opinion. That
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: appeal to authority. That I'm the one who could tell you, oh,
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: this is nonsense. These Michael Buttons on YouTube with their bullshit,
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: their archaeological bullshit. They love doing that. But no one's
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: listening to them. That's what's cute. Yeah.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: And, yeah, I mean, I'm grateful that a lot of
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: people listen to me.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Well, like I said, you're really good at it. And
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: it is undeniably, just based on what we've said so far,
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: this is undeniably strange. It's undeniably weird and it's undeniably,
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: at least to me and you, interesting. And that's why
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: the subject will hopefully will continue the pathway that it's
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: on because there's so many people like you now that
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: are looking at this stuff and they're very credible people,
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: very objective. The Ben Van Kirkwick of the world, and
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Corsetti, all these people that are looking at this
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: stuff and go, hey, there's a lot going on here, people.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: There's a lot.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's interesting that... The more we uncover,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: the more we discover, the more new evidence that comes out.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: I think what we're starting to realize is that the
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: limits on our own knowledge... vastly bigger than we ever
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: used to think. We used to think we kind of
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: had it figured out, and this is what I'm talking
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: about with those three questions I mentioned at the start.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: We used to think we had the answer to these
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: big questions, but with each new discovery, we're starting to
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: realize just how vast the unknown is. I think there's
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: two subjects where this kind of applies. I think the
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: first is physics, and obviously I'm not smart enough or
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: clever enough to talk about physics in any meaningful capacity,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: but I think it's fair to say that The more
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: we learn about the nature of reality and the universe,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: the more we realize just how big it is and
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: how crazy it is and how little we understand about
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: our place in it. And I think the other subject
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: is history. I think the more we learn about history,
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: the more we realize how huge the amount of time
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: humans have been on this planet is, how long a
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: mind like ours has been on this planet, how long
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: humans that are very similar to us have been on
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: this planet is. And I think it's a vital thing
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: because physics is kind of the question of where are we,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: but History is kind of the question of who are
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: we and where did we come from? And that's why
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: I'm so interested in it, because it's a fundamental question
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: to civilization and to who we are. And I think
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: it's really important. And so that's why I talk about
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: this stuff.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And also, it's cool.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: It's very cool. It's so fascinating.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: And I know you love it, too.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: And it's great. Well, it's it's it's so weird. You know,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: it's so it's so weird to think, like, what was
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: it like thousands and thousands of years ago? What did
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: they know? Where did they learn it? And are these stories,
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: these flood myths that exist in all these ancient cultures,
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: is this an echo of a historical record of people
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: trying to keep track of this event that took place
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: that crushed us and brought us down to a few
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: thousand people all over the world and we had to rebuild?
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: And that's also when you go back thousands of years
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: in the conventional timeline. People were so barbaric. They were
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: so horrible just a few thousand years ago. If they
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: were capable 5,000 years ago of building ancient Egypt, probably
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: earlier than that. But if, why were they so brutal 2,000
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: years ago? Because I think those are the people that survived.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: I think the people that survived were probably fucking terrible. Yeah.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Because they had to be. You know, if there's only like,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: we know that like the Toba volcano, which was like
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Is that Indonesia? 70,000 years ago got us down to, what,
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: just a few thousand people globally? Yeah. Imagine that life.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: Imagine what you had to do to stay alive. Imagine
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: even the thought of raising children in a world where
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: there's only 7,000 people left and limited amounts of food. And,
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: you know, most of the population of Earth is dead.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: What?
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: This is crazy.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: We've been through some crazy things as a species.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You did it. Didn't you do a video of
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: there's some evidence that at some point in history, most
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: people were killed off in war? Yes.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: That is related to what you were just saying about.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: So just after the agricultural revolution, the theory is that
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: because humans then had like property, And we're kind of
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: defending things that people got a lot more violent. And
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of evidence that around 6,000 years ago,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: basically all the men died. There's like evidence that 95%
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: of male bloodlines were removed. And we can see this
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: from the Y chromosome in genetics. And there's a massive
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: drop off of the diversity, the genetic diversity in male bloodlines.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: And something like 95% went. And no one quite knows
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: why this is, but we see lots of mass graves
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: around this time and violent graves and all these people
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: were killing each other. And it might not have been that,
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: but it's weird that it only affected men, because if
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: it was a natural disaster, it would, you know, it
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be specific to either gender, but it's only men.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: So some people think it's like a big amount of violence,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: but no one really knows. But it's really interesting.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Well, doesn't it make sense, though? I mean, think, if
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: you go from hunter and gathering, where you're constantly moving,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: nomadic tribes, a bunch of people that stick together, you're
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: in tents or whatever, and then all of a sudden
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: you're stationary, and you've developed agriculture, and you stay put.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: And then there's hunter-gatherer tribes that still exist, because guess what?
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: They still exist today. So it's not like it was
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: a uniform discovery of agriculture. Everybody adopted it, and there
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: was no more hunter-gatherer tribes, and there's no more tribes
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: of wandering marauders. Mm-hmm. So there's still these tribes of
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: wandering marauders. And so now you have to defend this
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: spot because you're stuck there because you're dumbass built a house.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: Like the Mongols used to make fun of people that
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: lived in houses. They thought they were fools and they
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: lived in felt tents, period. That's how you're supposed to live.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: You keep moving. And this idea of staying put, like,
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: look at these idiots. We're just going to go sack
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: their city. They really had no respect for people that
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: were so stupid that they stuck themselves behind walls. Like,
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: you assholes can't even run away. We're going to launch
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: lit human beings on fire with catapults onto your thatched
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: roofs and set everything ablaze. It turns out people are
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: really good at starting fires when you light them on
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: fire because we're fatty. Mongols figured out a lot of
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: cute stuff. But it makes sense that that's when war
• 55:07
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• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, once we settle down and once we owned... You
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: stay put.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: You become a target.
• 56:26
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: And you have something to defend, be it livestock or
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: crops or houses, as you say. And so, yeah, there's
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: quite a lot of evidence that violence did increase massively
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: as we entered the kind of agricultural age that we're
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: still in. So that is interesting.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: It's very interesting. And it also is logical. It's a
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: logical progression of how people would behave given the fact
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: that now all of a sudden they have resources that
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: they've accumulated. They have a very specific location. They have
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: to defend that location. That's when people figure out walls
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: and that's a bigger– whatever. The weird thing is the
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: Great Wall of China. Like the arrow turrets are facing
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: the wrong way.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: Really? Yeah.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of it. A lot of the Great Wall,
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: the arrows– Are facing inward.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: To try and keep people in rather than out?
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: Or try to keep people from China. Escaping. Going to wherever,
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: whatever's on the other side. It might have been some
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: sections of it weren't constructed by the people that we
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: think were constructed it. You ever seen that? No, I've
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: never seen that. It's very weird. Like people have pondered
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: like why are the arrow? Because there's these slots where
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: they can be protected but shoot arrows through. But they're
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: facing towards China. Yeah. They're not like China defending the
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: wall against the Huns. It's weird. That is strange. That
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: is strange. See if you can find some of that.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: I'm looking it up.
• 57:50
  Speaker 5: It's not a really great answer in this.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: So part of it is and part of it isn't.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: Mostly the Great Wall's defensive features face north outward towards
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: the steppe, the usual direction of major raids and invasions,
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: but many surviving sections have arrow slits and parapets facing
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: both north and south, including seemingly inward towards China. Why
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: face inward? Defense after a breach. If attackers cross the
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: wall or capture the tower, so they prepared to be invaded?
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: Chinese garrisons needed to shoot and counterattack from the south
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: side as well. Control of movement both ways. The wall
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: was a network of forts, gates, signals, roads, not just
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: a one-sided barrier. Also regulated border crossings, trade, and movement.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: It is crazy that they've invented a wall that you
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: could see from space.
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: I know, it's wild. It's like one of the biggest
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: engineering projects ever.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: Like, how long is that? Is it like 1,000 miles
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: or something crazy?
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: I have no idea, but it's big.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: How long is the Great Wall of China? Take a guess.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: I say 1,000 miles. It's probably more. Easily.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: China's so big in itself and the fact that it's
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: the whole, like.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What do you think, Jamie? Take a guess. 6,000 kilometers.
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: 6,000?
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: Jesus, Jamie. Wow.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: You would be really good on The Price is Right.
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: Oh, my God.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: 21,000 kilometers. Holy shit. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. 13,171 miles. Motherfucker,
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: that's crazy. Have you ever been there? No.
• 59:29
  Speaker 5: I've been there.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: It's crazy. It's amazing. It's so beautiful. The whole region
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: around there, I mean, obviously it's really long.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: The famous continuous-looking Ming-era wall that most visitors picture is
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: much shorter, still 8,850 kilometers. When associated structures and natural
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: barriers are included, UNESCO describes the overall Great Wall complex
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: as more than 20,000 kilometers long. So at the very least,
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: the part that you visit the Ming-era wall, 8,850 kilometers,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: which is fucking wild. That is so much wall. Yeah. Like,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: what were they doing? So it was built over 2,000
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: years from early walls in the 5th to 3rd centuries
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: BCE through major work in the Ming Dynasty, which ended
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: in 1644. Have you ever seen some of the stuff
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: that Cassie Coppersmith did? has uh talked about in regards
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: to uh ancient technology evidence from china.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: Not specifically her stuff but there's lots of weird lots
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: of weird things in ancient china.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah weird stuff like jade artifacts that seem to be
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: machined that don't make any sense that are like super
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: old and that seem to be artifacts that were passed
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: down from generation to generation and the You know, thousands
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: of years ago, the civilization that was in possession of them,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: their current ability to make artifacts was, like, much cruder.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: So it seems like this was older stuff that they
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: had somehow or another acquired. And they lost their knowledge of... Like,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: wafer-thin jade, highly polished, seemed to be machined. Like, weird stuff.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen that specifically, but, yeah, that's interesting.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know about that. Yeah, it seems like a
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: really clear pattern that exists everywhere, that there was something
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: like these ancient vases that they find in Egypt, that
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: they find these in these old sites, and that these
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: things that were carved out of diorite, which is insanely
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: hard stone, and carved to, you know, within less than
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: a human hair of variance, not only that, If it
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: was on a lathe, how do you account for the
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: fact that it has these handles on the side? Like
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: how the fuck did they do this? And this was
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: all stuff that was like really, really old by the
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: time these people had it. And that these people, their
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: current state of pottery and sculpture and all this, much
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: cruder than this stuff. So it seems like these are
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: like really old things that are artifacts of a time
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: where things were more sophisticated. So it's more evidence of this.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: Up and down nature of technology. Yeah, I mean, it's logical, right,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: that people learn things, discover things, excel at them, and
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: then later people forget them.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: Of course, especially when you take into consideration natural disasters.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: Natural disasters, wars, things along those lines. You know, like Baghdad,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: before the Mongols got there, was like the center of
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: science in the world.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. Arabs.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: They were incredible at science. And then it's just the
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: natural cycle of civilizations. And we see that throughout recorded history.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: So why would it not be the case for human
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: beings in the much, much, much, much, much larger period
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: of time, which is prehistory. Um, but it's not just
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: thing is it's not just like natural disasters and things.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: And obviously that plays a part, but it's also just
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: the sheer nature of preservation, right? Such a long amount
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: of time that we've been around human beings on this planet.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: It's just almost impossible for things to survive when we
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: talk about these 100,000 years, 200,000 years. Yeah. It's so
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: hard for things to survive that long.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: Any objects, any things that would be left over. Like,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure you've seen those AI depictions of
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: what New York City would look like in just a
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: thousand years. It's like nothing. Everything's crumbling. Gone.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: It's mental.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: No buildings, no glass. Everything gets absorbed in the earth.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: You get a jungle where Manhattan is. And maybe you
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: would stumble upon a piece of metal one day.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: But even then, like, I mean, I've done quite a
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: lot of research on material degradation and almost all our
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: modern materials other than stone are gone in a few millennia.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: And a few millennia is a long time, but not
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: compared to these timescales that we're talking about.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: No, if these timescales are accurate in terms of the
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: human brain, in terms of the ability to logically like
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: view the world, invent things, creativity, if they possess this 300,000
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: years ago, Like why, why wouldn't they have figured a
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: lot of this stuff out?
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: They definitely did. That's the thing. Like the seafaring thing
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: over 1 million years ago.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: You can debate it. It could have been an accident.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: I suppose. I don't think it is, but you can
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: debate it. But I think that we have completely undisputable
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: evidence that human beings were this intelligent 500,000 years ago
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: with the Colombo structure, which we spoke about a lot
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: last time. But that is undeniable evidence that some kind
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: of human was unbelievably smart and 500 or 476,000 years ago?
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was building houses.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Or building something.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: Some sort of structure.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Whatever that is requires incredible levels of intelligence. It is
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: clear evidence of what we define as modern behavior.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: Right, and it probably wasn't a one-off.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: Definitely not.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: And so this is what you found. So then it means,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: were they teaching each other? So, okay. So if they
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: were teaching each other, what kind of language did they have?
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: What kind of concepts could they grasp?
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: You're not doing that without abstract thinking without symbolic intelligence.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: Right. And how far did it go? Because it's very
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: rare that we find a piece of wood from that
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: long ago that we can carbon date and that we
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: can test. So how much do we not find? Most
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: of it?
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: Almost all of it. Because the chances of that surviving
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: is so unbelievably unlikely.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: I'm a moron, but I had a thought. My thought
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: was if... AI can get so intelligent that it can
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: do an accurate account of all of the objects on earth,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: all of the people on earth, all of the things
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: on earth, essentially every molecule that exists on earth, and
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: then extrapolate back to how they got in that position
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: in the first place, whether through natural ore deposits, natural disasters, volcanoes,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: all these different things like I wonder what kind of
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: a version of a timeline we would be able to
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: construct with like a super advanced artificial intelligence. I wonder
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: if it's possible to get a framework that is much
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: more definitive than what we're looking at now. I don't
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: know if it's possible. I mean, you'd have to have
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: enough technology that you would be able to literally like
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: scan the entire outer crust of the earth, which seems
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: daunting today. But ground-penetrating radar seemed ridiculous 500 years ago, right?
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: So as we continue to expand, I mean, AI is
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: solving math equations that have perplexed mathematicians for 50 years.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: They're solving it like that. So this is a new thing.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: It's a very rapidly emerging thing. I wonder what kind
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: of a version, what kind of a map of history,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: at least in terms of like, Rough timelines of things
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: we'll be able to get.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: That's the great hope for archaeology, right? Is that modern
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: technology allows us to discover things that we previously would
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: not have been able to discover. And as you say,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: LIDAR is the current example of that. But if you
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: just extrapolate forward, what else could we possibly use to
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: discover things that we haven't?
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: And of course, something like that will emerge. Because nobody
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: even considered, again, 500 years ago, what are you talking about?
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: 500 years from now, who the fuck knows? Who knows?
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: We literally can't imagine what kind of breakthroughs are available.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: That's the hope. But again, I think part of what
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: makes me think that perhaps we're not going to discover
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: stuff is this preservation problem because so much of it
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: is just gone. I mean, I guess if like what
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: you say, if we can like somehow extrapolate.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: Or time machines. Yeah, I mean. They could figure out
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: a time machine that'll throw the whole monkey wrench. right
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: into the gears.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that whatever happens, our current understanding of history, that's,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: that cannot be the kind of end point that what
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: we currently think about history is, is there's no way
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: that we've like reached.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: No, there's no way we're done.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: And that's why it frustrates me so much when people
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: are so definitive about it, because it's like, you really
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: think that we're not going to, because I mean, that's
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: the science is always advancing in every single field all
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: the time. And we, We're never at the point where
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: we've discovered everything. And yet there's always people in every
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: period of history that think this is the kind of
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: upper limit.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: What would be around from 300,000 years ago? Other than
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: what we've found so far, stone tools, shit like that,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: like metal would all be gone.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing. Everything would be gone unless it's
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: like incredibly unlikely preservation, like the Colombo structure, like incredibly
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: unlikely for it to happen. But I mean, there could
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: be other things like that out there. And there almost
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: certainly is, but... That's what's exciting.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: It's like, God, you don't want to dig up the
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: whole world, but you kind of do.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 5: It's not that old, but this is a jade... sword.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: Sorry, the handle's jade. The sword would have been probably metal.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 4: That's why the metal's all fucked up, but the handle's not.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 5: So anything with.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 4: Cool rocks or crystals or diamonds?
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: Right, right, because the handle is kind of all that's left.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: The sword is... A rotten piece of shit.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 5: There's a few other old, let's.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: See.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the ones, these disks are really weird.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 4: 3000 B.C.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 5: To 2000 B.C. But they have, I was just doing
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 5: the research.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: Up until the Ming Dynasty, I think it was like 1660,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 4: they have a book.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 5: Someone wrote about how they were doing this.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: Ooh.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 5: But that's in 1600. 1600.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: What did they do? I mean, various things. In 1600.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: But some of these are 3,000 years older than that,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: which is weird.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 5: Jade artifacts.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: Wow. This is the cooler shit, though. Nephrite.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 5: Ooh.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 4: But the description on how they did this, I'm almost not.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 5: I have.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 4: To take it as they say it, but the description
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 4: on how they did it was like they would put
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 4: abrasives on string and slowly wear away the jade how.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: Do they do these three-dimensional little carvings yeah it says
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: like they would put they'd get this slurry of water
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: and that kind of makes sense that one that you
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: just showed how old is that one i don't i
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: don't even know what it is that's fucking weird it
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: says how did ancient chinese carve what's the word that's
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: the question i asked without metal tools.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 5: This is the link i think what is that image.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: That's crazy, man.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 5: What's that from?
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: Where's that from?
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 5: Carving.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: What year is that? Oh, that's a modern master. Okay,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: that makes sense. That makes sense. Because I was like,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: how could you do that? That's like the flower petals
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: and everything like that. That seems like you need metal tools. Oh,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: so this is just an article on the evolution of
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: Chinese jade carving.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that aside.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this is a modern. Okay, that's why it's confusing.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: That's older.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: A griffin.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 5: Obviously older. Some of these are drilled.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: Like these little holes, if you look and zoom in
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 4: real close, you can see evidence of drills.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 5: But that's not, you know.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: You could have hand drills. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: could have harder stone that you've figured out how to
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: work into a position. And you could have sand. And
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: there's a bunch of things they could use. Pretty wild.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 5: Something like this. I mean, it's very crude.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, all that is like you could attribute
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: that to ingenuity and, you know, craftsmen with years of
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: learning how to work these different things. It's when you
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: get to large stuff that you're like, okay, how'd you
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: get these stones from Aswan? How'd you get a 50-ton
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: block of granite and move it through the mountains with
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: no roads? Help me out.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: They rolled it all apparently.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: How'd you get hundreds of them, thousands of them, millions
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: of them? How'd you do it? It's too wild. Yeah,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: it is very wild. And like some of these things,
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: I'll send you the Cassie Coppersmith episode that I did
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: with her because some of the stuff is like it's
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: very confusing because the timeline is pretty clear that this
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: is older stuff and the older stuff is more complex
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: and more difficult to create and seems to indicate the
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: use of machinery. One of the things she pointed out
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: was this crazy statue of a Buddha is that in
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: India where the guy achieved enlightenment by standing still and
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: it's how tall was it is it 90 feet tall
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: the largest individual standing statue thousands of years old looks
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: like it's machined like really weird like really weird statue
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: there's so much weird stuff in India and how did
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: they get it there Did you guys, did you move
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: it there? Or was it a stone that you said, hmm,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: wouldn't it be dope if we just, yeah, look at
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: that fucker with a big giant hog. But, I mean,
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: it's really detailed. It's like, see if you can find
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: a good image of it, young Jimmy. There's some.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 5: Her photo is still on my computer.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's really wild. And she said you see it
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: from a long way away. Somebody put their watermark right
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: over his dong. How rude. They knew you were going
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: to be looking right there.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: Me?
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: No, everybody. Humans.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: There's also like the Kaliasa temple, I think the one
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: where they carve right down somehow, hammer and chisel apparently.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: Who knows? It's incredible sophistication.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: That's the one where an army went to try to
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: destroy it and they tried for years and they gave up.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 5: Really?
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I didn't know that. They barely put a fucking
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: dent in it. They scratched a few things up, but
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: they worked on it for years to try to destroy it. Why? Why?
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: Because some new guy came along and said, fuck these
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: people in the temple.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this isn't my religion. This doesn't suit my story.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: Like what the Taliban did to those ancient Buddhists.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they blew them up.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, there's over 1,000 years old and they're like, no.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: An ISIS to Palmyra.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: Sad, man.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: I know. It's really sad. And if that's human inclination
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: to do that kind of stuff, like how long have
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: we been doing that? Well, yeah. Probably always. Yeah. How
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: much stuff is not around anymore because some asshole came
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: along and wanted it removed?
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it doesn't suit your narrative.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: Because everyone's always building a story. Humans have always done that,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: built a story around to legitimize power and rule. And
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: if it doesn't suit your story, you destroy it. And then, yeah.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: Would I be able to have some of that coffee?
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: Hell yeah, dog. Get on in there. Thank you.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: I've got to wake myself up.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're jet lagged. Trip across the pond.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: Here he is. This is what it looks like. Isn't
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: that wild, dude?
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: That's incredible.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: What's the, um, date on this, the conventional date? Do
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: we know?
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: That's a good question. They're going to have to carbon
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: date his dong. We don't know, but I'm sure it's known. Uh,
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: there's a guess, right? Like what is the guess of
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: the timeline? Whatever it is, it's very perplexing. It's a
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: 57 feet tall monolithic statue of Lord Bahubali.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 5: Uh, Okay, so 983 CE.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: That's what they believe. That's AD, yeah. Yeah, AD, current era.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: Regard as the tallest Jain statue until 2016. Construction of
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: the statue was commissioned by the Ganga dynasty minister. Okay,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: so how? How did you make that? Where'd you get it?
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: How'd you get it there? You did that, what? You
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: did that over a thousand years ago? And how do
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: we know that that's the timeline? I mean, it's weird.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: It's weird because it looks machined. When you look at it,
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: go back to some of the images, please. When you
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: look at the detail of the fingers and the toes
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: and the uniformity of the face, it's fucking weird, man.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: It's like these people had a lot of fucking resources.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: Look at the size of that dude standing next to it. Like,
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: for real, how do you get that? If that's not
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: a big, giant, contiguous block that was sitting there, what
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: is it made out of?
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: Granite, I think.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: So that's not just a giant, perfect slab of granite
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: that happens to be roughly in the shape of a guy.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: And you're like, wouldn't that be dope if we made
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: a dude out of that with a giant dong and
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: just had him just staring over our kingdom?
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: But we don't do that anymore. That's what's weird. No
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: one's building things like this anymore.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: Certainly not out of stone. No. Yeah, because we like
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: to make money and it takes too much time to
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: do a fucking pyramid when you can make a nice
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: skyscraper in just a couple of years and put a
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: big Trump on the roof.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: No surviving technical manual records records rather the exact construction procedure.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: Archaeological and art historical understanding is that the artisans shaped
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: the statue in situ, removing stone around the intended figure.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: roughing out the body, then refining the face, limbs, hair,
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: and distinctive vines, climbing the legs. Imagine if you fucked
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: that up. This approach avoided the near impossible task of quarrying, transporting,
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: and raising a 17 meter finished sculpture onto a hill. Yeah.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: So if they moved it, if there was definitive proof
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: that it was moved there, then there's another monkey wrench
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: gets thrown into the whole thing. And then you have
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: to go, okay, how? But it does make much more
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: sense if you just carved it out. But also like,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: How long would that take? What kind of tools are
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: we talking about? What kind of shitty-ass tools do people
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: have at 900 CE?
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 5: Well, then here's the rest of the stuff they did
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 5: in India.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: They did weird stuff in India where they just carved
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: stuff right out of the stone. What was the motivation
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: to build these temples, just carve them right out of
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: volcanic stone?
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: It's insane.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: Crazy.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: So detailed as well.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: Insanely detailed. And also some of the sculptures are three-dimensional.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: Like how did you get behind them and carve that out?
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: And how did you make all these like weird things?
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: Have you ever seen some of them where they go
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: over it with a light and you can.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: See how three-dimensional it is? Yeah, and the Barabar Caves,
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: do you know about them? Also in India where there's
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: like completely mirror-polished surfaces. And yet the conventional explanation for
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: that is that they were just shelters.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: But why are they so precise? They're like completely precise.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: and they've got this weird mirror polishing. Yeah, you don't
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: need that If you're just building a shelter.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: And how about those pillars that look like they were
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: cut on lathes.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like what? How did you? What's going on guys?
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 2: What did you we're missing so much. Oh We're missing
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: so many details about the past. It's, it's so frustrating
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: if you're really interested in it. Cause it's like, how
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: much do we know versus how much are we just assuming?
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing we're assuming so much. And that's
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: why it bugs me when it's presented as fact or
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: presented as we have all the answers because we clearly don't.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, what are the other papers that have come
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: out that have been, so.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: That was the paper about the 1 million year old skull,
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: human skull that was found in China, uh, last year. Um,
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: And this is super interesting because this is a human
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: with a modern size brain, but that was found a
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: million years ago. And so again, that has implications for
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: what was really going on a million years ago. And
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: if you link that to the, what I would argue
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: is modern behavior with the seafaring in Southeast Asia, then
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: you have a million year old skull found in China,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: in Northeast Asia. You know, you put those two things
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: together and you suddenly got human beings with modern brains
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: doing modern things a million years ago and i think
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: it's fascinating so i mean the paper came out uh
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: i think in october last year and what they did
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: was they took there are these fossils from a place
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: called yongshan in china uh and they were discovered actually
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: in the 1990s i think it was 1989 and 1990
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: there's two skulls yongshan one and yongshan two um but
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: they were badly deformed yeah there you go jamie right
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: on cue um badly badly deformed and They were always
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: thought to be Homo erectus because of where they were found, China,
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: and how old they were, over a million years old,
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: because that was the only type of human that should
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: have been in China or in that area at that time,
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: at that age. They were always assumed to be Homo erectus,
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: but a few researchers from a university in China, along
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: with the Natural History Museum in London, a professor named
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: Professor Chris Stringer, they applied modern reconstruction techniques to Yongxiang II,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: the second skull, And so they use something called CT
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: scanning to reconstruct it. And what they discovered was that
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: they think it's actually a Homo longi skull, which is
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: this part of the same clad as Denisovan, Denisovan. And
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: why that's important is that Denisovan is kind of like
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: a cyst.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: How do you say it? Do you say Denisovan or Denisovan?
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I say Denisovan, but I keep hearing Denisovan.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to change it. Yeah.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: All the scientists say Denisovan, but the cave is Denisovan cave.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: So it should be Denisovan, you would think.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: Fuck the scientists.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. Denisovan, Denisovan, whatever. Either way, these scientists
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: think this skull is Homo longi, which is a clad
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: of Denisovan, which is crucially a sister species to Neanderthal
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: and us, sapiens. Which means that if this skull is
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: a million years old, and if it is Homo longi,
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: that means that the divergence of our species must have
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: happened before them. So when humans split into Neanderthal, Denisovan,
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: and Homo sapien... If this human was already walking around
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: 1 million years ago, that means that whatever became us
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: had already diverged at that point. So we were already
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: a distinct species, Homo sapiens, 1 million years ago, which
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: is a staggeringly long amount of time and so much
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: older than what we thought before. We used to think
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: this was around 500,000 years ago. So it's like a 400,000
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: or more than that jump from what we thought before.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: Have you heard the theory about Neanderthals that they believe
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: that Neanderthals were not just a separate group of human
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: but were actually created by humans interbreeding with other ancient primates.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: How do you mean? So instead of Neanderthals existing previously,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: that Homo sapiens predate Neanderthals and that Homo sapiens breeding
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: with some other ancient primate, some other one of these,
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: created Neanderthals. Maybe.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: I haven't heard that.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if it's right.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: I read it and I was like, what? I was like, okay,
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: this is a crazy theory. And it's, you know, because
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: the thought is that Neanderthals were bred out with, you know,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: that there was interbreeding between humans and Neanderthals. But that
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: might have actually like predated Neanderthals themselves. Like it might
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: be the cause of Neanderthals is that humans, Homo sapiens
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: bred with something else.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: Well, we definitely bred with Neanderthals. And probably Denisovans and
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: Neanderthals and Denisovans bred together as well. We're all so similar.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: The fact that we can have kids together is incredible.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: And they actually recently found evidence of humans and as
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: in sapiens and Neanderthals actually coexisting for a long, long
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: time in the same place and like living in the
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: same place. And because you could always argue before that
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: perhaps it was, you know, non-consensual breeding between like a
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: Neanderthal male, a sapien woman. But now we have evidence
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: that we did live like alongside each other cooperatively. I
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: can't remember where the site is, but. that was found recently. So, yeah,
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: that's interesting as well because.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: See if you can find any, whatever the hell I
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: found about Neanderthals possibly a result of humans breeding with
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: other primates.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: With other primates? So is it not even.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, not other humans. We're not created by modern humans.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: They're a closely related extinct branch of the human family.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: This is a very recent proposal.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 5: I might have asked the question too in a different way.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: How did you ask it?
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 5: I said Neanderthals created by humans, which isn't.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: Really what you said. No. See if you search, is there,
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: put this in. Is there a theory that Neanderthals were
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: a result of human, maybe see Homo sapiens, Homo sapiens.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: Homo sapiens breeding with other primates. I guess you wouldn't
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: say primates, though, because that's a monkey. Other... Homos? Other homos.
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: Other ancient humans. Write that, ancient humans. Ancient human species.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: Let's see what perplexity has to say about this. I
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: wish I'd saved that because it was really interesting. It says, no,
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: not as the main scientific explanation. That's, but that don't
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: mean the main scientific explanation. I'm saying, is there a theory?
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: I want to know if there's a theory.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 4: Uh, well then that has to now, I mean, that's
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 4: about how we're using this actual thing is I'm using
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 4: it in a general way.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: Right. But not as the main scientific explanation. Absolutely. But
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: is there a theory? Has anyone, has anyone theorized that
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: this is possible? Ask that. Theorized that this is possible.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 5: It's going to have to crawl.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 4: If it's new, it has to crawl the websites to
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 4: find that information.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: I want it to crawl. I know.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 5: We can't make it crawl.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: Crawl, bitch.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: They're going to take over, man. They're going to ruin
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: the film.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: Yes. Here it goes. Researchers have proposed hybridization-based ideas, but
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: generally not the exact claim that Neanderthals originally formed from
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: Homo sapiens plus another species. What has been proposed? Paleontologists
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: propose that particularly late Neanderthal or early modern human fossils
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: are might be Neanderthal-Homo sapien hybrids or descendants of populations
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: that mix repeatedly. No, this is not quite what I'm saying.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 2: This is what's fucked up when you watch too many
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: videos and you read too many articles and you don't
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: save them. This was quite a few months ago, too.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: The Denisovan thing is weird because there's recent proposals. I
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: think this is a paper I sent in. I sent
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 2: you a podcast where they're discussing this paper that as
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: of August, like this month, there's some speculation about the
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: height of the Denisovans and that they think they might
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: have been much larger than Homo sapiens at the time.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they found a bone. They found a bone, a
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: thigh bone, I think, under the sea and suggest the Denisovans.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: And everything we found about Denisovans is that they were
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: bigger than us. So the teeth we found, we haven't
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: got much from them, but the tooth is bigger. The
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: jawbone is bigger. The dragon man skull, which has been
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: classified as very similar to Denisovan, is bigger. And then
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: they found this thigh bone that suggests that they were
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: considerably over six foot tall. Now, obviously, that's not like
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: a massive giant, but compared to, you know, the average
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: height of a human today is something like a male
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: human is something like five, eight or five, nine. And
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: so a Denisovan being over six foot is like quite
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: a considerable jump from that. So it's not like a
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: mythical giant, but it's still massive. bigger than you'd expect
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: an ancient human to be.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: And it's also, we're going with a limited amount of fossils, right?
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: So limited, so limited.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: So just from what we know, they existed with larger skulls.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: Recent genetic research confirms that modern humans, Homo sapiens, and
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: Neanderthals repeatedly interbred a course of period spanning roughly 200,000
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: to 250,000 years ago. While it's long believed that interbreeding
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: occurred during a brief window of About 50,000 to 60,000
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: years ago, advanced genomic mapping shows multiple waves of contact
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: occurred much earlier. 200,000 to 250,000 years ago, an early
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: wave of Homo sapiens migrating out of Africa encountered and
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: mated with Neanderthals in Eurasia. So what this guy was
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: saying was that it might not have been that, but
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: that even earlier than this, Neanderthals were a result of
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: human beings interbreeding with others. Or Homo sapiens interbreeding with others.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Thank you, though. what were we just at? Oh, Denisovans.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: So just that one alone was way bigger than most
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: humans at the time. And just given the size of
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: the head, the bones are bigger. It's a bigger brow.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: It seems like a more robust, larger version of a human.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: And then when you take into account the range and
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: size of human beings, given the correct amount of resources
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: and food and protein, we got seven-foot-plus humans that are
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: all over the place today. And imagine if these Denisovan skulls,
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: which seem to be a completely different structure than a
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: Homo sapiens, they might be the giants of the Bible,
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: is the point. This might be what they were talking about.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: There might have been a race of much larger people
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: that were physically dominant over Homo sapiens.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: They could have been, they could have been a considerably bigger.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: They don't even need to be that big for the,
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: the myths to kind of perpetuate.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: Like just for someone to be a little bit bigger
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: and you encounter a group of them and you're like
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: a small homo sapien community, you're going to remember that.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: Well, whenever I do the UFC weigh-ins and I'm standing
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: next to massive fucking, you know, these huge heavyweights, like
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: some of these guys are just gigantic humans, you know?
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: Six foot seven, six foot nine, 265 pounds, and they
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: have to cut weight to make 265. These are giant people.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: And then you think this is whatever percentage of people
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: that are around today that are that big. If the Denisovans,
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: if we just have a limit, we might have caught
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: just a few small ones. I mean, that's what we
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, I wonder what the fuck would
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: happen if they found some bones that indicated there was
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: a man that was nine feet tall.
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: And we know that primates can get that big. And
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: obviously we're a primate. I can't remember what it's called, but.
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: Gigantopithecus.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: That's the one, yeah. Absolutely gigantic as per the name.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: So primates are kind of line of animals can get
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: really big.
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: And along the same lines of the timeline of discovery
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: of that is fascinating too. Because I think it was
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: in the 1920s, an archaeologist was in an apothecary shop
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: in China. And he found molars. They were from a
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: primate that didn't make any sense.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: They were really big.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, huge. He's like, where did you get this? And
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: he went there and then that's where they found jawbones
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: and things. So there's some, we used to think that
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: they were bipedal because I've read that before. But now
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: they're thinking that not, not necessarily. And that they might
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: have been, because like a lot of people thought that's Bigfoot.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: You know, there's this myth that persists throughout Native American cultures,
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: everywhere else. Yeah, they think it might have been an
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: enormous orangutan. Look at that movie. What was it, The
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: Jungle Book?
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 5: Jungle Book, yeah.
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: So a 10-foot-tall orangutan, like what? I mean, it just
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: makes sense. If there's the people, you brought up florists before.
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: Now we also know about those little hobbit people that
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: lived on the island of Flores that were these three-foot-tall,
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: tiny little people. Mm-hmm. So the island dwarfism, and then
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: there's a totally different version of human beings, of the
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: human chain, the human tree. Who knows? Who knows what
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: these Denisovans look like?
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: And island gigantism is also a thing in nature. We
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: see that and we see island dwarfism.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: With reptiles, right?
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: So it could apply to primates and to humans.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: Sure, as long as they had enough food. Yeah. It's
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: just the idea of a Denisovan. I mean, they only
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: discovered them in 2010, right?
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, Sony. And we have hardly anything about them.
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: How many are we missing? You know what I mean?
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: We literally have, like, a tooth, a jawbone, and this
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: thigh bone, and a few other things.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: Right, and how many other versions of humans are we missing?
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's ghost populations in our DNA. We know we're
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: missing humans. Like, there are other types of humans that
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: we just have nothing for.
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's weird.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: That's so weird.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: That show, Human, have you ever seen that show? It's on... God,
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: is it a BBC show?
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: No, I watched that.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: Very interesting.
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: It's good.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: But she was on a podcast recently talking about this
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: ghost DNA and how weird it is that a few
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: hundred thousand years ago something happened and there's this DNA
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: that's in there that's like, what is this? What's this stuff?
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so many populations of humans that we think
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 1: existed because of our DNA, but we don't know who
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: they were. We've never found them. And they could be,
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: you know... very close to us, but also with significant differences.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: And it's just, it's all up in the end. Same
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: with so much of prehistory. We just, we don't know.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I wonder like what kind of a society,
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: what kind of, if, do they find stone tools? With Denisovans?
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: Do they know that yet?
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: It's really hard to attribute stone tools to anything because
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: if you just have the tools, you don't know what
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: human used them, what human made them.
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: Because you have to find like a skeleton and it's
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: so hard to find a skeleton next to the tools.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: And even then you don't actually know if it was
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: that that made the tools. We don't know.
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What else has been fascinating for you recently?
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: So I think. The question that I mentioned at the start,
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: the one like, when did humans reach isolated land masses,
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: such as, uh, America and Australia is a really interesting
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: question because again, the old ideas we have have proven
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: to be incorrect. And I think it's, especially in the
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: case of the Americas, I think it's super interesting because obviously,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: as you know, we used to think it was Clovis
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: first 13,000 years ago, but. So many sites now seem
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: to be pushing that back much, much, much, much, much
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: older into the past. So, yeah, that's a really interesting question.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, now we know that humans have been
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: in the Americas for at least 22,000 years with white
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: sands footprints, which I'm sure you've heard of that.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, 22,000 years. It's crazy.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: So that's the oldest accepted evidence. But I think there's
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: loads of interesting sites that potentially push it quite a
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: lot further back than that, which are a bit more controversial.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: But when you take them all together, they're kind of, yeah,
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: there's white sands. So that's now accepted, I think, by
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: most archaeologists. And why that's important is because it kind
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: of opens it all up again. Because of when the
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: glacial maximums happen, the opening of the corridor, because that's
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: pre that. It means that we now don't know how
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: long humans have been in the Americas. It could go
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: back way further. And then you start looking at these
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: other sites, and you think maybe it's a lot, lot older.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: So there's one in Mexico called Chicoita Cave. apologies for
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: the pronunciation is probably wrong, but this is a 33,000
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: years old and high in the mountains of Northern Mexico,
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: they found like 2000 stone tools. Um, and they did
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: like 50 separate dates and the date isn't controversial. What's
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: controversial is if they were human made tools. Um, but
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: the scientists working at the site think that this is
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: evidence of humans in the Americas, 33,000 years ago. Then
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: there's a site in Brazil called Pedro Furada. which is 50,000
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: years old. Is that Chikawite? Yeah.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, it looks just like a tool, but
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, people argue that they're natural. So it's up
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: in the air. It's not accepted yet, but I think
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: that's the, probably the most, the least controversial.
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: 26,000 years ago.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: But it goes up to, it's like 30 to 33,000 years,
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: I think. But yeah, there's a site called Pedra Furada
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: in Brazil where they found a hearth-like structure. So people
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: making fire, they found charcoal, they found blackened stones, heated
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: stones rather. And they dated that to like 50 or 60,000
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: years ago. So that's like a lot older than White Sands, obviously.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: So that's a really interesting site. Again, not fully accepted
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: by archaeologists, but the people working there are quite convinced
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: that it's evidence of human presence in Brazil, which is
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: obviously quite far south. um, 50, over 50,000 years ago. Um,
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: but the thing is you can't prove it because you haven't,
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: they need so many things to say it for sure.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: They need like a fossil of a human basically, because
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 1: otherwise you can say it's natural.
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: Uh, I don't know what those paintings are. I'm assuming
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: they're more recent because otherwise that would be pretty clear evidence. Um,
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: but I think that the half like structures and the,
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 1: The heated stones and the charcoal are dated to over.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: 50,000 years ago. That's crazy. Go back to that last one, please.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: Right there. That is wild. That is wild.
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: I'm assuming that is much more recent because otherwise that
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 1: would be very clear evidence of human presence. But I
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: think the oldest layers go back. I think it's been continuously. Oh,
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: they think it's been continuously inhabited for thousands and thousands
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: of years with the oldest being over 50,000 years old.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: Are they the tools? They might be the tools. So
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: critics say that it's natural, right?
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: That those are natural things, not tools?
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: But a paper came out in 2023 that really made
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: the case that it's human presence.
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: Napping. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: And I think it's leaning that way, but it's just
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: so hard to prove it, right? So it's not accepted.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 2: Yet, but Jamie, uh, I just sent you a link
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: that I found yesterday. I thought it was pretty bizarre,
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: a completely different part of the world, but also really interesting.
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 2: It's a link to an Instagram video. There's so much
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: of this stuff now. That's what's so cool. It's like,
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: and if you're in a good algorithm, You get indenidated.
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: Give me some volume on this.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 3: Algerian Sahara with 5,000 rooms, and we still haven't seen
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 3: all of them. It's called Sefar. No roads lead to it.
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 3: No vehicle can reach it. The only way in is
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 3: on foot through a maze of stone pathways that all
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 3: look identical. On the walls inside, there are 15,000 paintings,
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 3: animals that no longer exist here, rivers that dried up
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 3: thousands of years ago, and then things no one can identify.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 3: Floating figures with no faces. Beings with round heads wearing
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 3: what looks like suits. A figure over three meters tall
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 3: that the man who discovered it simply called a god.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 3: Most of Sephar is still unmapped. Whatever else is in there,
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 3: no one's seen it yet.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: I could do without that guy's voice. He's a little ridiculous.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 5: I'm going to take the radio head out.
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, settle down, buddy. It sounds like an AI voice, right?
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 2: Like a super enthusiastic AI voice? Is that what it is?
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 5: Well, it could be. It very well could be. It
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 5: definitely is going to be in the future, but.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 5: What was it called? I don't... I don't remember.
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 2: Sephar? It's just... Yeah. Okay.
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 5: Let's try to look it up.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: Let's see if we can look it up. Sub-Saharan Africa
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: is another weird one, right? Because especially the Sahara itself,
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: that used to be vast, green, grassy trees, jungle. Who
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 2: knows what it was? And now, no one's really has
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 2: really any understanding of what's under that sand.
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah but it was fertile and green right up until
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: literally right up until the point that the conventional timeline
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: has civilization starting like around 4000 bc is when it
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: flipped to to desert um so yeah i mean i'm
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: sure there's there has been archaeological work done in the
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: sahara but compared to the size of the sahara right
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: there's there's just got to be loads of stuff under
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: there that could potentially change our understanding of origins of
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: civilization for sure um very interesting region but yeah extremely
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: hard to excavate for many reasons such as the climate
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: and also political instability a lot of those countries are
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: pretty fucked up so it's hard to like go in
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: there and do archaeology but very interesting region of the
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: world and obviously that is where egypt emerged just after
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: this period so you know what were the people that
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: kind of went to the mal river doing before there's
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: many interesting things there's um What's it called? There's an
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: interesting site. Napta Playa, I think it's called.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's going to be a little hard to get to.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 5: It's in the middle of the Sahara Desert.
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 2: Boy.
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 5: In Algeria.
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 2: Jeez. Buried.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: I have heard of this, actually.
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 5: Somewhere in there.
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 2: Fuck. Imagine you're an archaeologist. You're tasked with, you know,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: someone gives you some funding. Hey.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: Sahara Desert, bro.
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 2: We want you to get in there. And go look around. What?
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's probably not the ideal place to go.
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: You can't even go without getting killed.
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want to get shot.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 2: You could literally die. So, no. Yeah.
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: Just imagine if you found something cool.
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 5: Imagine you found a bunch of cool shit.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you go. Good luck. Just good luck taking it out.
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 5: They're like, oh, where'd you get that?
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Thank you. Exactly. They'll kill you. That was also
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 2: my thought. I was going to bring that up about
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: Gobekli Tepe, about if they bring in more archaeologists, more
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 2: people to dig, if they really, truly expand. They really
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 2: have to keep track of what they find because the
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 2: amount of money that someone can get for an artifact
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: on the black market is pretty incredible. This is an
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: issue with Egypt, right?
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: And South America.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, and South America. But Egypt in particular, there's some inconsistencies.
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 2: with Zahi Hawass's versions of like what was discovered in
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: some places, whether or not a skeleton was in a
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: sarcophagus versus what he said later. You know, like in
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: the older versions, there was a skeleton and the newer versions,
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: they didn't find anything. So did you sell a skeleton?
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 2: Because people sell, I'm not saying he did, but did
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: somebody sell a skeleton? Because people sell skeletons. And if
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: you are some rich guy who lives in some other
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: country and you're a billionaire from oil And you're like,
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 2: you know what I'd like? You've got a guy. He's like,
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: you've got everything. You've got all the Ferraris. He's like,
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: you know what I want? I want an Egyptian skeleton.
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 2: Get me that. Go get me a mummy. I want
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 2: a fucking mummy.
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: Or any kind of artifacts or anything.
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 2: Especially something gold, some ancient gold. All that stuff was
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: stolen out of there. So was it melted down? For
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 2: grave robbers, that must have been an incredible place to
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 2: be before everybody discovered all those tombs. Because we know, like,
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: with King Tut, which was preserved, but luckily nobody got
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: into that until... What year was that? They found it. Tutankhamun's.
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but within the last couple decades, I think.
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure.
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 2: Whatever it was. I think it was a little longer
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 2: than that. But the point is, it's, like, fantastic gold
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: sarcophagus cover and massive fucking treasure trove of jewels and things. Like,
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 2: how much of that stuff is... scattered in private collections
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: in the world, you know?
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: And in South America, like, because they spent, like, underneath Cusco,
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: there's all these tunnels, right? And people have known about
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: them for a long, long time. But it took a
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: long time for archaeology to kind of accept that they
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: were there. But people have been going, like, people had, like,
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: tours and stuff down at the tunnels before it was, like,
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 1: widely accepted. And back then, it's just rife for people
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: selling off to the black market because there's no control
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: over it. There's no kind of institutional... control over it
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: so people could just kind of do what they want
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: until it actually finally got like you know controlled by
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: the authorities so yeah who knows what went and all
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: over the world as you say yeah there could be
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: stuff that is really interesting that is just out there and.
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: Then there's the elongated skulls the weird fucking skulls and
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: a long history of people discovering those like how many
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: people got the good ones how many of them were
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: removed a long time ago and sit somewhere and It's
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: almost like you have to go raid all the rich
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 2: guys in the world.
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: See what you got hiding in your basement.
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: Just find some guy, like, what's your Google search like?
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: Let's find out who's got the stuff. Because, I mean,
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 2: if you're a person with a private museum, if you've
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 2: got that kind of money. And, like, there's people in
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 2: the world that have private zoos, right? So they have
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: so much money in other countries that they've, you know,
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: they have basically the wild kingdom in their backyards. And
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: that guy's like, well, I got that. Now I want–
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: I want something even more weird. I want you to
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 2: build– like I went to the Cairo Museum once, and
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: I like the way it looks. I want that in
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: my house. There's got to be people like that in
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 2: the world.
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: This guy.
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 5: He's one of them.
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: Here he goes.
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 4: 91-year-old Don Miller from Indiana. He had thousands of artifacts
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 4: removed from his house.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 5: I think he had Egyptian mummies.
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: Whoa.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 5: I'm trying to find the good pictures in the.
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: List of what he had. So they seized his stuff.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: How'd they find out about it? Was he on Instagram?
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 4: A delegation from China went to Indiana to claim their stuff.
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: Whoa. A delegation from China. I wonder if they showed
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: up with guns. Give me your shit back. FBI raided
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 2: a 91-year-old missionary's home and found thousands of stolen Native
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 2: American bones. Whoa.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 5: Amazon River canoe.
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: Wow, Ming Dynasty jade, an Egyptian sarcophagus, and a dugout
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 2: canoe that had traveled down the Amazon River. Wow.
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 4: It was just in his house. There's a picture of
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 4: his house and another thing I had. I mean, it's
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 4: just all.
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: How'd this guy get the scratch? Where's he getting the
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 2: money for all this? What'd this guy do?
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 5: I don't know why there's not a movie about him.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 2: After 10 years, FBI returned 7,000 rare artifacts... Looted by
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: Indiana grave robber. Oh, he's a grave robber. That's what
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: they call him? So it's just a dude who's a collector.
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: He might not necessarily be a grave robber.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 5: I don't think this is the same guy.
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 2: FBI found 42,000 relics and 2,000 human bones in a
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 2: man's home. What is that? Whoa, what the? What is that,
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: a horse?
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 5: Maybe like a pangolin or something.
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 2: A sloth? Yeah, it looks like a pangolin, right? 42,000 relics. Oh,
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 2: same guy. No. Don Miller. Whoa. It is the same guy.
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. This guy's a nut. He died in 2015.
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 2: Too bad. He was 91 when agents first knocked on
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: his door in 2014. Wow, he only lived a year later.
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 2: The 42,000 artifacts hoarded by Miller represent maybe the largest
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 2: ever seizure from a private collection. So this was interesting.
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 2: It's like, are they saying that he's not allowed to
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 2: acquire them? Do we have rules in terms of like, say,
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 2: if you found some stuff? I know we have rules
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 2: about Native Americans, right? FBI became involved when they learned
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 2: thousands of items were obtained in violation of antiquities laws
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 2: and federal and state statutes. According to the FBI, Miller
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 2: went on digs around the world and illegally brought his
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: finds home to the United States.
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 4: I think Nick Cage had to give back that skull
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 4: he bought because it was stolen from somewhere or something.
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: He bought a skull?
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 4: Like a T-Rex skull.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 5: You ever hear about that?
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, he had to give back his T-Rex skull?
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 5: I think so because they found out that it was
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 5: like stolen. So he gave it back. I don't know
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 5: what happened with the money, but.
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 2: Whoa. How much does a T-Rex cost?
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 5: Also, I was thinking, this guy got.
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: He got fucked. They found this guy.
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 5: There's got to be.
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 1: We just.
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 5: I brought him up because I knew about it.
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 4: He, you know, probably talked about it at the bar and.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 2: All that kind of shit. Yeah.
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 5: What about the people who don't?
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 2: He's on Facebook. Yeah.
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 5: What about the people who don't?
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 2: Those old dudes are all on Facebook. Have you seen
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 2: the dinosaur that Waze to Well has?
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 2: Waze to Well... legally purchased a dinosaur. What, like a...
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 2: So they have, like, a dinosaur bone, some aquatic dinosaur
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: that they have suspended in their ceiling.
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 3: Really?
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can buy dinosaur bones.
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 3: Um.
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 1: He bought a skull for $ 276, 000. Whoa, he got fucked.
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: Stole it from the Mongolian government. Wow. Smuggled it out
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 2: of the Gobi Desert. He voluntarily returned the fossil to
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 2: the Mongolian government after U.S. authorities found it was smuggled.
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 5: Oh, no.
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 2: Um... See if you can find the ways to weld dinosaur. Yeah,
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 2: you can buy dinosaur bones. That's pretty cool. There's a
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 2: lot of people that don't believe in dinosaurs lately. Really?
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 2: This is very confusing.
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 1: What's their reasoning?
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, just they've been lied to about everything. Maybe dinosaurs too.
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: And there's people that think that dinosaurs are actually the
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 2: dragons of ancient history. And that's all bullshit. It's the
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 2: dumbest theories. I mean, like, you know, we have, there's
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: the ways to weld dinosaur. That's what it looks like.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: That's pretty dope.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty sick. Some sort of an aquatic dinosaur.
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 2: How much of that is actual bone and how much
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 2: of it is replica? I don't know. Some of them
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 2: are replica. I think that's actual bone. But, like, they
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: have T-Rexes. I think the most complete T-Rex is, I
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 2: want to say 80%. What is the most complete T-Rex
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 2: skeleton ever found?
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 5: That one just sold recently.
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 2: At an auction. Oh, yeah?
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it was 62% complete.
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 2: Is that the most complete one ever?
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure.
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 2: I thought there was a.
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 5: Oh, there's one that's 90%.
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 2: Oh, there you go.
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 4: Well, discovered with 90% of its skeleton recovered.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we know a lot, folks. This idea that dinosaurs
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: aren't real is really silly.
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: No, it's definitely real.
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 2: Sue. Yeah. Whoa. Okay. So that's real. Guys, stop. That's
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 2: a real skull. The problem is there's been deception. And
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 2: one of the big pieces of deception is when you
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 2: go to a lot of museums and you see a
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: dinosaur skeleton, you assume that's how they found it and
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: they put it back together again. Whereas a lot of
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 2: the pieces of those bones are not real. A lot
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 2: of the pieces are recreations and some entire skeletons that
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 2: are in museums are all a recreation. There's no actual
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 2: bone that you're actually looking at. And so then people
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: were like, hey.
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 1: It's the same with ancient sites, though.
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: 67 million years old, 80% intact. So, like, just that alone,
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 2: 80% of that is real. That's amazing. They're real. It's
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 2: a fucking real thing that existed just like fucking crocodiles
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 2: are still real today. There was a real group of
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 2: large reptiles that roamed the earth.
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: For a long time. But the crazy thing, I think
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: dinosaurs really highlight the kind of fragmentary nature of the
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: fossil record, right? Because they existed for 160 million years
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: or something like that. But we only have like a
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 1: few thousand fossils from that huge amount of time. And
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 1: it just shows how little survives, right?
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And the fossil record is just really weird.
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: It takes a lot to make a fossil. So we
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 2: have a tiny fraction of the actual data.
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: And we have to extrapolate out from that. And just
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: that's our understanding. And that's why we do not know
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: what happened in the deep past.
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 2: Isn't it fucking cool?
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: It's so cool.
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: That's why I do what I do, man. I fucking
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 1: love it.
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know anybody who when you first learn
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 2: about this, anybody that I want to talk to, when
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 2: you first learn about this stuff, you don't go, whoa.
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 2: You know, because it is so interesting. and um that's
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 2: why to me the um reaction to Graham Hancock's Netflix
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 2: series was so strange like so unhinged like why why
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 2: are you guys freaking out about this and calling it
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 2: the most dangerous show.
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah I mean I've experienced this firsthand now because I
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: mean last time I was here I wasn't really known
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: about but now I'm a kind of people know who
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 1: I am and I get so much hate. It's weird
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: because people paint me out to be something I'm not like.
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: And it's just so strange because I'm me and I
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: know what I think and I know what I believe. Obviously,
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 1: you've experienced that on a whole different level. Yeah, I've
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: experienced it from the government.
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. But it's just wild.
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: It's so weird when people paint you out to be
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: someone that you're not and put words in your mouth.
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: It's strange.
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 2: You'll get used to it. The key is just don't
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 2: read it. That's the key. Like you're going to be
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 2: aware of enough of it peripherally. People will bring it
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 2: to your attention if it's really important or if it's
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 2: like significant. None of it's going to really be important.
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 2: But as long as– and you're a very conscientious guy
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 2: and you do a really good job, like I said,
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 2: of being objective and measured and that's all you need
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 2: to do. Just keep doing that. Just don't read the comments.
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 2: Because there's a bunch of people out there that are
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 2: just very– unhappy period, no matter what. And when someone
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 2: is getting a lot of attention, they're very angry always.
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: And there's whatever that number is, one out of a hundred,
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: one out of a thousand, it doesn't matter when they
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 2: reach you, that negativity is never good for you. It's
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 2: only bad.
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 1: And it sits with you a little bit more. Like
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: you get all the positive comments, but you don't really fuck,
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: you don't like the negative ones sticks in your brain.
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: But you know, what's really interesting is like, uh, people
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 1: have done like hit pieces on me and shit, but
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: And obviously loads of negative stuff comes through, but also
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 1: I've had like actual archaeologists and actual people working in
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 1: national institutions reach out to me and say like, you know,
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: these are like actual archaeologists. And they're saying like, Michael,
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: we value your work. And like, we actually think you're
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 1: an important voice and stuff like that. And I find
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: that really encouraging because these are You know, it's easy
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 1: for us to think about archaeologists as like a kind
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: of bogeyman. They're like want to suppress all this stuff,
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: but they're not all like that. No, I think.
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 2: Particularly the young ones, particularly people that are coming up
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: that really the reason why they got into this in
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 2: the first place is because it's such a fascinating subject.
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 2: And like you, when you've spoken on this, when you
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 2: were in school and you were getting your degree, you
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 2: were confused as to why these alternative perspectives weren't. entertained.
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of young people that feel
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 2: confined by the gatekeepers. They feel confined by the career
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 2: academics that are sort of in charge of who gets tenure,
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 2: who gets jobs, who gets grants. And it's a very
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 2: confusing thing. You don't want to ruffle any feathers or
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 2: step on any toes. And so you feel constrained in
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 2: your ability to be curious. And that seems insane for
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 2: something that is so inherently curious, curiosity driven.
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: So inherently unknown as well. We do not know, as
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: we keep saying.
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right. We're not talking about stuff that's like,
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: you know, established science where you can clearly, you know,
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: it's not mathematics. This is something like weird. You know,
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 2: you're looking at hints of the past. And the more
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 2: we look, the more we find older stuff. It's like
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 2: Graham always says. stuff just keeps getting older yeah it's
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 2: crazy well it's just so cool that you're out there
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 2: making videos and that you could do that for a living.
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 1: Now i know it's wild i feel i feel so
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 1: lucky that i get to uh do something i'm so
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 1: interested in and talk about these topics and also to
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 1: like create not to kind of like inspire this thinking
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: and other people that's really what i want to try
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 1: and do is to get people thinking about history from
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: this different perspective and to think about the unknown and
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 1: think about the potential that what humans could have been
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 1: doing now that we know that a mind like ours
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 1: could have existed for a million years, that humans like
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 1: us could have inhabited this planet for such a vastly
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: longer length of time than we used to believe and
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: all the possibilities that throws up. More than anything, that's
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 1: what I want people to think about when they watch
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: my work. I don't want to tell them to believe
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 1: this or tell them to believe that. I just want
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: them to kind of think about it themselves and open
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: their minds to the possibilities that could have occurred. And
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that like people always say that I
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 1: like saying that there's like advanced civilizations in prehistory. I'm
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 1: not saying that. I'm just saying there's a lot more
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: on the table than we used to think. And I
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: think that's really fascinating. I wish more people would kind
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: of take that possibility seriously. And that's why I get
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 1: encouraged when I get these emails from people that actually
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 1: in the institutions, because they're the people that are going
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 1: to rewrite the textbooks. Like I can say what I want.
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 1: Like I'm just a YouTuber, but we need the people
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: that actually work in, in the institutions to think in
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 1: this way. And then, Then I think we might update
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 1: our thinking on these things.
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of those young folks that
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 2: are coming up now in archaeology that do have alternative perspectives.
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: Whether or not they're being suppressed. And it's also very
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 2: encouraging for them to see a pathway outside of academics, academia,
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 2: like what you're pursuing. And to see, like, not only
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: is this viable, but you can do... do it with
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 2: the proper approach, like the way that you're doing it.
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 2: Where you're not making crazy claims, not saying the aliens
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 2: did it. You're not saying anything nutty. You're just saying, hey,
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: there's a lot going on here. And to pretend that
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 2: we have an accurate map of the territory seems silly.
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just think there's so much more on the
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: table now than there used to be only a few
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: decades ago. And I think that's so exciting when we
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: look at our past because, as I say, it's the
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 1: reason we're all here, right? It's the reason we live
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 1: in this civilization is the answer to these questions. And
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 1: we don't know the answer to these questions anymore. So
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 1: let's talk about it, you know?
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What else have you found recently that's interesting?
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so, I mean, there's older American sites, so.
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 1: So there's obviously the Cerruti Macedon site, which is 130,000
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 1: years old, which is controversial, but I think people.
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: Spoke about that. That's the Macedon bones where they appear
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 2: to be, it appears signs of human smashing the bones
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 2: to get the marrow.
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just after, like, freshly smashed after the animal had died,
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 1: and they found, like, these anvils, like, these things that
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 1: look like tools next to the bones, and it's controversial
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 1: because we can't prove that that was human activity, but
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 1: it looks like human activity. It was even published in
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: Nature in 2017, so.
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 1: You know, it's another little data point that pushes back
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 1: human presence in the America potentially to over 100,000 years ago.
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: And there's even more. There's a site called Calico where,
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: I think this one's a little bit, I don't really
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 1: buy this one, but a very famous archaeologist called Louis Leakey,
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 1: who was like one of the top names in the
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: archaeology in the 20th century, he believed that Calico showed
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 1: evidence of human presence in the Americas over 100,000 years
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 1: ago as well. So It's another data point. And then
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 1: there's Way at Larco, which I think you've heard of.
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 1: Have you heard of Way at Larco? It's this site
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 1: in Mexico where they had this volcanic ash over these
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 1: human tools, and they dated the ash to crazy numbers.
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 1: I'm talking like 300,000, 400,000, 500,000 years ago, and the
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 1: tools were below this layer.
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 2: What? Yeah.
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not aware of that one. So in the 1950s,
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 1: There was a Mexican archaeologist who was doing some work
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 1: in the Vasco Basin in Mexico near the city of Pubella.
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 1: And he was finding all these extinct Pleistocene animal remains
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 1: there alongside human activity. So he called in some American
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 1: archaeologists and they did some work and they identified this
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: site called Huayatlaco, which is an archaeological site there. And
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: they found these very sophisticated stone tools. They're like bifacial
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 1: stone tools, which means they've been worked on on two sides.
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 1: And it's quite a sophisticated level of tool. And so
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 1: they found this and they were like, OK, this is
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 1: an interesting site. Let's bring in some geologists. So the
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: geologists came in and they were expecting to date the
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 1: kind of sediment around the tools to around 8,000 to 10,000
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 1: years ago because they knew about a volcanic eruption that
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 1: had happened at that time. And so they expected the
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 1: volcanic ash to be from that. So they did all
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 1: this testing. But then they found that the ash was
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 1: giving these crazy dates, like 200,000, 300,000, up to 600,000
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 1: years old. And that was completely mental because the tools
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: were below this layer of ash. And then they dated
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 1: a camel pelvis, I think, that was in situ with
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 1: the tools. And that camel pelvis came back to 250,000
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 1: years old as well. And that was in the same
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 1: layer of the tools. So they kind of brought all
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 1: their different dating methods together. And there's multiple kind of
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: geological dating methods on the sediment, the ash, and also
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 1: the camel pelvis. And they kind of collected all this
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 1: to a date of 250,000 years ago for this site,
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 1: for where these tools were found. And yeah, and so
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: they tried to publish this and they received like immense
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: pushback because obviously this was the time of the Clovis
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: first paradigm. And, you know, people weren't ready for Clovis
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 1: to be broken, let alone by such a huge margin,
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 1: like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years old. And
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 1: they couldn't publish for like 20 years. And by that time,
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 1: many of the artifacts had gone missing, and they didn't
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 1: know where they were, and the site actually got razed.
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 1: It got kind of removed. And I'm not trying to
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 1: say that's some conspiracy or anything, but it just means
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 1: that you can't really prove it. But they did eventually publish,
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 1: and the geologists have always stuck by this date, and
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 1: there's multiple lines of evidence that suggests that the tools
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 1: were found below this layer of roughly 250,000 years old.
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 1: And that's obviously hugely older than we think humans have
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 1: been in the Americas. It's a very interesting site. I
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 1: want to give a shout out to Will Brown, who's
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 1: got a channel called Incredible History. He's actually been to
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 1: the site and he kind of like nudged me in
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 1: the direction of looking into this one. He's got a
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 1: great channel. But yeah, it's super interesting because we can't
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 1: prove it because the tools have gone missing. The site
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 1: no longer exists, but there's a paper out there written
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 1: by serious scientists saying that, you know, there could be
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 1: human presence in the Americas. over 200,000 years ago, potentially
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 1: even older than that. And that would just radically change
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 1: our understanding of humans in America. So then when you
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 1: put all these sites together, so obviously White Sands is
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 1: the earliest at 22,000. But then when you add that
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: to Chicoete Cave, as I mentioned earlier, 33,000. Pedra Furada
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 1: in Brazil, over 50,000. Cerruti Mastodon, 130,000. I don't really
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 1: think Calico is.
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 1: I think that's natural. But then we had Larko at 250,000.
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: You know, it only takes one of them to be
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: right for our understanding of when humans reached America to
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 1: radically shift. And I think it's only logical that humans
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 1: were in America a lot longer than we think. Because,
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 1: you know, when we're talking about the vast span of
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: time that we've been on this planet, why couldn't we
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: have reached these places?
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 2: And then the question is, how did we reach them?
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 2: And from where? You know, from where? Exactly. That's the
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 2: weird thing is some of the... When you look at
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 2: pyramid structures, for instance, where did that idea come from?
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 2: How did that idea make it to the Aztecs?
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 1: All over the world we find pyramids.
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 2: Weird. It is weird.
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, you could say that it's just like a
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: logical way of building things, but maybe. Who knows?
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 2: Well, there's also the weirdness in the fact that the
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 2: Aztecs themselves didn't build the pyramids.
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, some of them, yeah. Like Teotihuacan was there before,
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 1: and they said it was... The name literally means place
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: where the gods lived, and they found it there. And
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 1: so it was before them, and they don't know who
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 1: built it. Right. They give us lots of our names.
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 1: They gave us the name Olmec. Olmec means the rubber people,
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 1: because they knew about the Olmecs. They knew they existed
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 1: before them, but they didn't really know who they were,
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 1: but they just called them the rubber people.
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 2: Is it because they lived around rubber trees?
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 1: I think it's because they use rubber or something. I'm
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 1: not 100% sure.
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 2: So what's the conventional theory about who built these Aztec temples?
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 1: I think the theory is that it was a culture
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 1: that came just before the Aztecs that we don't have
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 1: a name for. But they don't know. Imagine you don't
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 1: know anything about them.
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 2: You don't have a name for them. But they made
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 2: insanely sophisticated architecture with stone.
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 2: That mirrored the cosmos.
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no one knows who built the Pyramid of the Sun.
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 1: I think that's what it's called at Teotihuacan. But it's
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 1: ginormous and it's incredible. And there's all these different layers
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 1: to it and incredibly sophisticated. But we don't know who
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 1: built it. We don't really know when they built it.
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, we think we know kind of the region,
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 1: but we don't know. As is the case with so
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 1: much of this stuff, we do not know.
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 2: Is there a conventional timeline?
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 1: For Teotihuacan?
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And what are they basing it on? If they
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 2: think it came right before the Aztecs? Because I had
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 2: read as long as 1,000 years before them.
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I mean by
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 1: right before because I'm thinking in these big, big, big–
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 1: That's a long time. It's a long time, yeah.
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 2: The United States is not even 300 years old. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 2: of course.
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 1: But, yeah, what I'm trying to say is I don't
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 1: think it's like way.
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 2: Way, way, way old. Right, right, right, right. So somewhere
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 2: around 1,000 years before. But that's the thing. It's like
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 2: how many of these things happened where there was some
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 2: sort of a civilization and then it collapsed? and then
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 2: new people came along. The idea that you would have
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 2: a civilization that was capable of building something as fantastic
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 2: as some of those Aztec constructions, and then they would
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 2: just go away.
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 1: We just lost all memory of it, all memory of it.
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 1: And then people just wandered up there one day, the Aztecs,
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 1: and they're like, whoa, what is this?
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 2: And it was probably covered with jungle, right?
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, how many of those things were just absorbed?
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 2: by just nature.
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 1: And it's no wonder that they think it was built
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 1: by gods, right? Because you see it and you're like,
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 1: that is incredible.
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 2: Who built this?
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 1: It must have been the gods.
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 2: And there's no one living in it. Fuck.
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: And it just shows how easily human civilizations can reach
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 1: a really high peak level of sophistication and then go
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 1: down again and collapse and just all memory of them
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 1: is gone.
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Any other cool things you've discovered recently?
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 1: Well, there's also the question of when humans reached Australia,
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 1: which I think is another really interesting question because the
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 1: conventional time is 65,000 years ago. And there's a site
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 1: called Majed Bebe in Northern Australia. And that's the earliest
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 1: accepted site in Australia. And that's right in the north
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 1: of the country. And it makes sense because you have
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 1: to cross water to get to Australia. You have to
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 1: build boats and cross water. But there's another really interesting
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 1: site that's right in the south of Australia where archaeologists found...
• 2:07:43
  Speaker 1: blackened stones again and charcoal and hearth-like structures. And they
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 1: dated this site to 120,000 years ago, which is double,
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 1: just about double the time that we think humans were
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 1: in Australia. And it's in the very south of the country.
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 1: And the archaeologists that are working there actually wrote in
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 1: their paper that the evidence supports a cultural origin over
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 1: a natural origin so they think that it's cultural as
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 1: in human rather than natural but they can't prove it
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 1: because there's no associated artifacts and no associated skeletons but
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: they think that it it kind of leans towards being
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 1: a cultural origin. And obviously if that's correct, that means
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 1: human beings were only in Australia twice as long as
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 1: we thought, but also had inhabited the entire continent or
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 1: not inhabited, but had gone through the entire continent right
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 1: down to the very South of the country, twice as
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 1: old as we thought. And it's just another thing that's
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 1: like pushing it older and older and older. And it's
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 1: not accepted, but it's so hard to prove these things
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 1: because we can't find skeletons or we can find skeletons,
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 1: but it's extremely rare. So, The bar is so high
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 1: for proof, but this site called Moygill 120,000 years ago is,
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: I think, very strong suggestive evidence that human beings have
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 1: been in Australia twice as long as we think. And
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 1: obviously that means that they had to have got there
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 1: by boat and yeah. That's another interesting one.
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 2: Wasn't there something that was done on the genetic connection
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 2: between Australian Aboriginal people and Denisovans? Yeah, yeah.
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 1: They think that maybe there was different migration pathways and
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 1: different human species potentially also reached Australia. And it's not
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 1: that wild because if you think back to the seafaring
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 1: thing we were talking about earlier, if people were reaching
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 1: islands over a million years ago, then why couldn't they
• 2:09:30
  Speaker 1: have reached Australia much earlier than we think?
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 1: Because if we had that capability for so long, Why not?
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 2: When they do this, is this, I mean, because obviously
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 2: they didn't even know about Denisovans until 2010. So is
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 2: this like genetic analysis? And if so, like, do they
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 2: have genes? Like, how do they get genetic material from
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 2: these Denisovan skeletons?
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 1: I think you can take it from... Like a tooth
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 1: or something? I'm not quite sure, but I think you can.
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 1: I think they know the kind of genetic makeup of
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: the different human species. So I think you can tell
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 1: that way if you've got a trace of the DNA.
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I was saying. If it's fossilized, do
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 2: they have actual DNA from Denisovans? And if they do,
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 2: how are they guessing that people, Aboriginal people in Australia,
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 2: have some traces of it? Just like Europeans have traces
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 2: of Neanderthal.
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 1: And also people in.
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 1: I think like Nepal and these high-altitude places, they have
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 1: quite high traces of Denisovan DNA, and that's what they
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 1: think allows them to live in high-altitude environments. They think
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 1: that Denisovans are more robust than modern humans and can
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 1: live in more extreme environments. And they think that people
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 1: that live in those kind of high-altitude regions of the
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 1: Himalayas and stuff have that kind of gene, if you like.
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's the science behind it, but they
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 1: think they have the traces of that, and that's what
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 1: allows them to live in these more isolated... high altitude environments.
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 2: So they think Denisovans lived in high altitude, mostly? Maybe.
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 2: They don't know. Well, there's only a few bones, right? Exactly.
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 1: So it's really hard to tell.
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 2: So fucking interesting, man.
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 1: And also in that region, they found recently the oldest
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: evidence of advanced surgery, which is like way older than
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 1: we think. It's like 31,000 years ago. They found some
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 1: surgery in Borneo, which is again in this same region.
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 1: I think Indonesia is such a fascinating region because It's
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 1: the place of where the Sunda Shelf was, where obviously
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 1: the sea level's risen, have covered a huge expanse of
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 1: land that used to be land, but now no longer is.
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 1: And so many interesting discoveries here. But yeah, this surgery
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 1: thing is, they found the skeleton of a child that
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 1: had had his leg amputated, but had lived for many, many, many,
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 1: many years afterwards. And his whole lower leg had been
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 1: amputated off and but had like healed like completely and
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 1: he lived like or she i think as a girl
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 1: lived like a lot longer after that and obviously that's
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 1: quite an advanced thing to to do right because you
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 1: have to understand how to prevent infection you have to
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 1: it's a very humid place as well so it's very
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 1: hard to survive probably was very painful for that individual
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 1: but this pushed back our understanding of surgery by like
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 1: 20 000 no maybe not quite that long i can't
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 1: remember i think it was like 7 000 years ago
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 1: so yeah by a long way because this is 31
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 1: 000 years ago So again, it's showing prehistoric humans to
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 1: be far more sophisticated than we think. They were performing
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 1: surgery 31,000 years ago and surviving and living for years afterwards.
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 2: That is insane. I wonder if they had any pharmacological
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 2: interventions to deal with the pain.
• 2:12:39
  Speaker 1: Well, I think they would have used wild plants because
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 1: we've got so much evidence now of other human species
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 1: and our human species using wild plants to.
• 2:12:48
  Speaker 1: For medicinal purposes.
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 1: We see Neanderthals doing that a long, long time ago,
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 1: like cultivating wild plants and using them as painkillers and
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 1: stuff like that.
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 2: What's going to kill the pain of a fucking amputation? Well,
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 2: probably not much. Of a bone saw. I know. Right?
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 2: And they're like, what kind of tools do they have? Like,
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 2: what were they doing it with? How did they stitch
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 2: people up? Did they have needles? Did they have thread?
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 2: Did they just leave the wound open? Like, what did
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 2: they do?
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 1: But whatever they did, it worked. And they were sophisticated
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: enough to keep that person alive and to care for
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 1: them and for them to live years afterwards. Excuse me.
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 2: It's wild.
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 1: It's wild. So it's yet more evidence of people being
• 2:13:26
  Speaker 1: super sophisticated so much longer in time than we thought.
• 2:13:29
  Speaker 1: And it all points in one direction, man, which is
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 1: humans have been here longer. They've been more intelligent than
• 2:13:34
  Speaker 1: we thought for a long, long time.
• 2:13:36
  Speaker 2: If you had to guess, what do you think is
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 2: the oldest... real true civilization how long when do you
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 2: think it started.
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 1: So i think in terms of like what we call
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 1: civilization in terms of our current like cycle of it
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 1: if you like i think it is and whatever came
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 1: before that but i don't think it would probably been
• 2:13:57
  Speaker 1: that far further before that but i think that from
• 2:14:00
  Speaker 1: the onset of the holocene i think we basically started
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 1: right away all over the globe and you know develop
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 1: civilization because it happens everywhere right Back to question one,
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 1: why did it happen everywhere all over the time? Because
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: I think that's what humans do. I think once we
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 1: get a stable period of climate, we innovate. Because agriculture
• 2:14:18
  Speaker 1: and civilization can't have been a very hard invention to
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 1: do because everyone did it. It happened everywhere all over
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 1: the world. So it's not like a really unique, hard
• 2:14:28
  Speaker 1: thing to do because people did it everywhere. So that
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 1: makes me think, what about all the other periods of
• 2:14:33
  Speaker 1: stable climate that we've had? And now that we know
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 1: that human beings have been around for so long, we've
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 1: had It's something like four stable warm periods in the
• 2:14:40
  Speaker 1: time that we have modern sapient fossils, so 300,000 years.
• 2:14:44
  Speaker 1: But then if you extrapolate that out to this million-year
• 2:14:47
  Speaker 1: timescale of modern-sized brains and modern behavior with the seafaring,
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 1: it's something like 11 warm periods that we've lived through
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 1: of stable climate conditions that have lasted for over 10,000 years.
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 1: So you look at each of those warm periods and
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 1: you think, if agriculture and civilization isn't that hard seismic
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 1: of an invention to do, Why couldn't it have happened
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 1: in those previous warm periods, 11 of them going back
• 2:15:11
  Speaker 1: to a million years and possibly beyond?
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 2: There's also that very weird phenomenon when someone somewhere figures
• 2:15:18
  Speaker 2: something out. Even if people aren't connected, other places in
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 2: the world, people figure it out at the same time.
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 2: We know that to be the case today. Rupert Sheldrake
• 2:15:27
  Speaker 2: has a term for it. I think it's called, is
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 2: it morphic resonance? So his term is also based around
• 2:15:35
  Speaker 2: theories that they've done with rats and mazes. that if
• 2:15:39
  Speaker 2: you teach a rat a maze on the East Coast,
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 2: rats on the West Coast learn it quicker. Really?
• 2:15:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:15:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got lots of interesting work, hasn't he, about
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 1: kind of almost telepathic... Yeah, weird stuff.
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very weird stuff. There's probably some sort of Akashic record,
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 2: there's probably some sort of shared field of information that
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 2: whether or not it's tangible and you can write it
• 2:16:02
  Speaker 2: down verbatim or whether or not it's some sort of
• 2:16:04
  Speaker 2: implied concepts and ideas that are transmitted... through the species
• 2:16:10
  Speaker 2: that like creativity itself is almost like something that we
• 2:16:15
  Speaker 2: tap into like uniformly as a species.
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 1: It's like you can like almost like we're in an antenna.
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah and that like when michael button figures something
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 2: out someone on the other part of the world's like
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 2: oh i feel it yeah it's just very weird it's
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 2: a very weird idea yeah you know and it's It's
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 2: impossible to prove. You can imply it. And the rat
• 2:16:38
  Speaker 2: thing is very interesting. I think they've done them with
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 2: some other things as well. So it's interesting because like
• 2:16:47
  Speaker 2: if that's not the case, then what do you have,
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 2: a seafaring civilization that travels the entire globe? Do you
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 2: have something that's so advanced they figured out how to
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 2: traverse continents and they're bringing all this information with them?
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 2: Is it one group? No, it seems like they all
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 2: kind of figure it out at the same time or roughly.
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 1: But it is pretty much the same time in comparison
• 2:17:08
  Speaker 1: to the amount of time that we've been on the planet, right?
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 1: It's not a coincidence.
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 2: It's an explosion.
• 2:17:12
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 2:17:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:17:13
  Speaker 1: So why? Because the reason given is the climate. That's
• 2:17:16
  Speaker 1: the old reason. But I think that is the reason because,
• 2:17:19
  Speaker 1: you know, the climate got warmer. So agriculture, civilization. And yeah,
• 2:17:22
  Speaker 1: that makes sense. But then why not before? Why not
• 2:17:24
  Speaker 1: in all of these 11 warm periods where humans have
• 2:17:26
  Speaker 1: been here and been smart? If it's such a common invention,
• 2:17:30
  Speaker 1: why didn't it happen before?
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 2: Maybe it did. Maybe it did. It's also interesting how
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 2: much stuff, like, if you think about the global temperature, like,
• 2:17:39
  Speaker 2: where is it always warm? Well, it's always warm around
• 2:17:41
  Speaker 2: the equator. It kind of always stays warm around there. And, well,
• 2:17:44
  Speaker 2: what's around there? Well, the Amazon. Yeah, exactly.
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 1: And even in periods of, yeah, like... the fully glaciated
• 2:17:50
  Speaker 1: periods some places on the earth were perfectly habitable right
• 2:17:54
  Speaker 1: so who knows but then i mean and that goes
• 2:17:58
  Speaker 1: back into the like you say the amazon it goes
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 1: back into the question of how long have humans been
• 2:18:01
  Speaker 1: in america because if we've been in america and the
• 2:18:03
  Speaker 1: america's for a lot longer than we think then people
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 1: have been in the amazon a lot longer we think
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 1: and then you look at the discoveries in the amazon
• 2:18:09
  Speaker 1: and how there's been civilizations there a lot further back
• 2:18:12
  Speaker 1: in time than we thought. Well, how far back in time? Obviously,
• 2:18:15
  Speaker 1: the evidence we've seen so far doesn't point like crazy
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 1: back in time, but we don't know.
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 2: Well, there's so little evidence. That's the problem. I mean,
• 2:18:22
  Speaker 2: they're just recently discovering these grids, right? And so how
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 2: much archaeological work has been done on all these grids?
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, exactly. It's so hard. And also the rainforest
• 2:18:32
  Speaker 1: is such like an extreme recycling kind of natural machine
• 2:18:35
  Speaker 1: that it's going to destroy anything that's older than... than
• 2:18:39
  Speaker 1: uh right a few thousand years ago so.
• 2:18:41
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean there's not stuff that's older than a
• 2:18:43
  Speaker 2: few thousand years ago it just means there's nothing left.
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 1: And they could have built in organic materials that have
• 2:18:48
  Speaker 1: just decayed and you would never see it and they
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 1: could have been doing that hundreds of thousands of years
• 2:18:53
  Speaker 1: ago and who knows so it's wild man it's so
• 2:18:56
  Speaker 1: wild uh i think there's the potential is all enormous
• 2:19:00
  Speaker 1: just absolutely enormous and that's why i do what i
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 1: do because i think it's so fascinating and i love
• 2:19:05
  Speaker 1: talking about it and i love uh getting other people
• 2:19:09
  Speaker 1: to think about it. And that's the great privilege of
• 2:19:11
  Speaker 1: me being able to do this job. So, yeah.
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 2: Well, it's an important job. It really is. Because those videos,
• 2:19:19
  Speaker 2: although they are just YouTube and they're entertaining, they're just
• 2:19:24
  Speaker 2: something that anyone can digest. There's so much valid, fascinating
• 2:19:28
  Speaker 2: information on them and so many valid questions that we
• 2:19:32
  Speaker 2: really can't quite answer. And it expands. When people watch them,
• 2:19:37
  Speaker 2: you get this understanding like, oh, wow, this is a
• 2:19:40
  Speaker 2: big puzzle. This thing is really complicated. It's a lot
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 2: more complicated than we've been told, especially by people that
• 2:19:48
  Speaker 2: want you to believe that they have the answers.
• 2:19:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I hate it. I hate the certainty
• 2:19:53
  Speaker 1: that people talk about the past because I never talk
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 1: about it with certainty. I'm not saying this is necessarily true.
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying possibilities everywhere, so many different possibilities. And yeah,
• 2:20:04
  Speaker 1: everything we seem to discover pushes it in one direction
• 2:20:06
  Speaker 1: that's older and more intelligent back in time. And yeah,
• 2:20:10
  Speaker 1: there's so many interesting things. And we barely scratched the
• 2:20:13
  Speaker 1: surface today.
• 2:20:14
  Speaker 2: I know. We could do this for days. Before we
• 2:20:17
  Speaker 2: wrap it up, though, is there any other really interesting
• 2:20:20
  Speaker 2: ones that you'd like to talk about?
• 2:20:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was something interesting that came out in regards
• 2:20:24
  Speaker 1: to writing. There's a couple of interesting things regarding writing.
• 2:20:27
  Speaker 1: So obviously writing is the kind of marker of civilization.
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 1: Like writing began, civilization began. but we're starting to see
• 2:20:34
  Speaker 1: evidence of symbolic meaning being transmitted through symbolic notation, like
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 1: way back further in time than we believe. So obviously
• 2:20:43
  Speaker 1: the earliest writing is still thought to be about 4,000
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 1: BC with the ancient Mesopotamian cuneiform and stuff like that.
• 2:20:49
  Speaker 1: But as you mentioned, Irvin Finkel, the kind of idea
• 2:20:52
  Speaker 1: regarding Tashdapella having a similar thing, and that's 12,000 years ago,
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 1: but there's much, much older evidence of humans conveying information
• 2:21:00
  Speaker 1: in a symbolic fashion. So there's... An archaeologist called Genevieve
• 2:21:06
  Speaker 1: von Petzinger, I believe she's called, and she found evidence
• 2:21:08
  Speaker 1: that on all these Ice Age paintings that we find
• 2:21:12
  Speaker 1: in Europe with all these incredible like bulls and bison
• 2:21:15
  Speaker 1: and stuff, and you've probably seen them, but next to
• 2:21:17
  Speaker 1: them is like this kind of symbol of notation that
• 2:21:19
  Speaker 1: people have kind of overlooked for years. But she found
• 2:21:24
  Speaker 1: 32 recurring signs across a period of 30,000 years all
• 2:21:28
  Speaker 1: across the continent. And these signs, she thinks, like a,
• 2:21:32
  Speaker 1: not a language as such, but a kind of a
• 2:21:34
  Speaker 1: system of encoding meaning. Yeah, there you go.
• 2:21:37
  Speaker 2: They're the signs.
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 1: And she kind of makes the argument that these signs
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 1: are not a language as such, but a kind of
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 1: tradition of conveying information that lasted for 30,000 years. And
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 1: that is such a long length of time. Like if
• 2:21:53
  Speaker 1: you think about the oldest language Today, I think it's
• 2:21:56
  Speaker 1: ancient Chinese and that's only a few thousand years old.
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 1: And yet these signs appear all across the continent of
• 2:22:02
  Speaker 1: Europe across a time span of 30,000 years. Pretty much
• 2:22:06
  Speaker 1: exactly the same and just these signs. And they also
• 2:22:09
  Speaker 1: find them in other continents as well. And she doesn't
• 2:22:12
  Speaker 1: say there's any connection there. I'm not sure there is
• 2:22:14
  Speaker 1: any connection there.
• 2:22:15
  Speaker 2: The spirals are really weird. They find spirals all over
• 2:22:20
  Speaker 2: the place, right?
• 2:22:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 2:22:22
  Speaker 1: They find these signs all over the world. Jamie, you
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 1: might be able to find a.
• 2:22:26
  Speaker 2: All over the world.
• 2:22:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like a cool map where they kind of
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 1: point where it's all found. If you scroll down a
• 2:22:30
  Speaker 1: little bit on the left, that one, yeah.
• 2:22:35
  Speaker 2: You see this. That's really blurry.
• 2:22:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, once it loads. But it's all over the world.
• 2:22:42
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 2:22:42
  Speaker 1: And it's the same signs. Wow.
• 2:22:47
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. So the same signs in Europe, North America,
• 2:22:52
  Speaker 2: Central Africa, South America. Southern Africa, Australia, Malaysia, East Africa,
• 2:22:59
  Speaker 2: New Guinea. Wow. Borneo, Myanmar.
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 1: And she thinks it's like a much older symbolic tradition
• 2:23:08
  Speaker 1: that humans have kind of carried with them in the
• 2:23:11
  Speaker 1: kind of migratory routes. And it actually goes back much
• 2:23:14
  Speaker 1: older than the Ice Age art date of like 40,000 years,
• 2:23:17
  Speaker 1: but actually comes from when humans first reached Europe out
• 2:23:20
  Speaker 1: of Africa and spreading across the world. And we've kind
• 2:23:22
  Speaker 1: of kept the same tradition of conveying information. And again,
• 2:23:26
  Speaker 1: this has massive implications for human intelligence because even though
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 1: it's not a full language, the ability to convey information
• 2:23:34
  Speaker 1: in a symbolic way is a marker of really sophisticated intelligence.
• 2:23:38
  Speaker 1: And so it's another really interesting discovery that kind of
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 1: points towards intelligence. And also to maintain that tradition over
• 2:23:46
  Speaker 1: such a long length of time is really interesting because
• 2:23:50
  Speaker 1: we don't really do that. As I say, the oldest
• 2:23:52
  Speaker 1: language is ancient Chinese and it's only a few thousand
• 2:23:54
  Speaker 1: years old. And yet these people somehow managed to pass
• 2:23:57
  Speaker 1: on this language, quote unquote, for 30,000 years.
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 2: Have you ever heard anybody discuss the concept that human
• 2:24:05
  Speaker 2: beings might have had some sort of telepathy that atrophied
• 2:24:13
  Speaker 2: when we started using language and writing and communicating with words?
• 2:24:17
  Speaker 1: Well, what's really interesting is the human brain size has
• 2:24:20
  Speaker 1: decreased since Civilization began.
• 2:24:23
  Speaker 4: Uh-huh.
• 2:24:24
  Speaker 1: Which is strange. And it makes sense because if everything
• 2:24:27
  Speaker 1: was oral before, you need more of your brain to
• 2:24:30
  Speaker 1: hold all the information. But once you can kind of
• 2:24:33
  Speaker 1: outsource it to physical objects, you don't need so much brain, like,
• 2:24:38
  Speaker 1: size and space.
• 2:24:40
  Speaker 2: How much has it decreased?
• 2:24:41
  Speaker 1: I can't remember off the top of my head. But
• 2:24:43
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's even controversial. I think there's quite
• 2:24:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of evidence that the human brain size has
• 2:24:47
  Speaker 1: decreased a little bit in the last 10,000 years or whatever.
• 2:24:51
  Speaker 2: Well, what... Weren't like there was some ancient people that
• 2:24:55
  Speaker 2: thought writing was a bad idea and that you should
• 2:24:58
  Speaker 2: you should remember everything and that writing and writing things
• 2:25:02
  Speaker 2: down was actually going to degrade your memory.
• 2:25:04
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it certainly does, because you don't need
• 2:25:07
  Speaker 1: that brain like part of your brain anymore if you're
• 2:25:10
  Speaker 1: not memorizing all the information you have. Like, and it
• 2:25:12
  Speaker 1: makes us smarter as a whole, as a civilization.
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 2: Of course. And then if you extrapolate, so do hard drives.
• 2:25:17
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 2:25:18
  Speaker 1: Well, it's happening on an even bigger scale now with
• 2:25:20
  Speaker 1: AI and stuff like that.
• 2:25:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. Same process, though. Like, people talk about chat
• 2:25:24
  Speaker 2: GPT decreasing people's intelligence.
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 1: Well, because it outsources thinking itself, which is a crazy step.
• 2:25:30
  Speaker 2: And we're going to just go like a raisin. Exactly.
• 2:25:33
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, maybe we're regressing. But I think as
• 2:25:38
  Speaker 1: a civilization, we're learning more.
• 2:25:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, collectively.
• 2:25:41
  Speaker 5: But as the individual.
• 2:25:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:25:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe we're aggressive.
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 2: And our potential to learn and just remember things. Like
• 2:25:47
  Speaker 2: when I just from when I was a boy, I
• 2:25:48
  Speaker 2: knew everybody's phone number. Yeah. And now I don't know anybody.
• 2:25:51
  Speaker 2: I know like three people's phone numbers.
• 2:25:53
  Speaker 1: Because we don't have to memorize anymore.
• 2:25:54
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 2:25:55
  Speaker 1: It's wild.
• 2:25:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 2:25:57
  Speaker 1: And there's also another paper that came out regarding language,
• 2:26:00
  Speaker 1: which is they found over 200 objects. And it's around
• 2:26:05
  Speaker 1: the same date, around 40,000 years ago. And they basically
• 2:26:08
  Speaker 1: found like a proto-writing script that had the same level
• 2:26:10
  Speaker 1: of complexity as the early Sumerian scripts from 3000 BC,
• 2:26:14
  Speaker 1: but from 40,000 years ago in Ice Age Europe. Again,
• 2:26:18
  Speaker 1: so it's like another kind of proto-language, symbolic thinking and
• 2:26:24
  Speaker 1: conveying meaning through symbols. I don't know if, I can't
• 2:26:27
  Speaker 1: quite remember off the top of my head, Jamie, but
• 2:26:28
  Speaker 1: if you type in like, it was this year. So
• 2:26:31
  Speaker 1: if you type in P-N-A-S, proto-writing script, 40,000 years ago
• 2:26:37
  Speaker 1: or something. They found it like loads of like symbols
• 2:26:40
  Speaker 1: engraved on bones. And they argued that it was the
• 2:26:42
  Speaker 1: same level of complexity as the early Sumerian scripts. And again,
• 2:26:46
  Speaker 1: this was the marker of civilization 3000 BC, but now it's,
• 2:26:51
  Speaker 1: this capability is so much older now because of these
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 1: new discoveries.
• 2:26:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw that. It's really weird. Like when you're
• 2:26:56
  Speaker 2: looking at the writing, like, okay, what are they like
• 2:26:58
  Speaker 2: the little scratches on the bones and clay and whatever
• 2:27:01
  Speaker 2: it is. What are they conveying? Do we even understand
• 2:27:05
  Speaker 2: what they're conveying or just assume they're conveying something?
• 2:27:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I think they categorized it and they seem to
• 2:27:11
  Speaker 1: think it is a kind of proto-script.
• 2:27:15
  Speaker 2: Fucking weird, man. Like that's a script?
• 2:27:19
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, like a proto-script. So like the kind of
• 2:27:21
  Speaker 1: thing that became language.
• 2:27:22
  Speaker 2: But Right, so there had to be a precursor to language.
• 2:27:25
  Speaker 1: A written language. But if it existed 40,000 years ago,
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 1: it's so much older than we used to think this
• 2:27:31
  Speaker 1: capability emerged. Yeah. And what does that kind of entail?
• 2:27:35
  Speaker 2: Can I see that again, Jamie, the images? How weird.
• 2:27:39
  Speaker 2: And so at the bottom, that looks a lot like cuneiform.
• 2:27:41
  Speaker 1: I think these, I think these ones are examples of
• 2:27:43
  Speaker 1: more advanced, but they're saying it's at the same level
• 2:27:45
  Speaker 1: as this, but 40,000 years ago, which is vastly older
• 2:27:50
  Speaker 1: than cuneiform.
• 2:27:55
  Speaker 2: It's so interesting.
• 2:27:56
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 2:27:57
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you've seen the, we talked about this yesterday
• 2:27:59
  Speaker 2: as well, the Italian guy who came up with this
• 2:28:03
  Speaker 2: concept of erosion dating. Oh, on the pyramids. Yeah. That's
• 2:28:09
  Speaker 2: another weird one. It was like at the high end,
• 2:28:11
  Speaker 2: he thinks it might be 20 plus thousand years old.
• 2:28:14
  Speaker 2: It's like, okay, what? Yeah.
• 2:28:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because he compared the erosion, because there was an
• 2:28:19
  Speaker 1: earthquake like 500 years ago that kind of shook all
• 2:28:21
  Speaker 1: these casing stones off.
• 2:28:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:28:22
  Speaker 1: And he compared the erosion to.
• 2:28:25
  Speaker 1: With the blocks that had always been exposed with the
• 2:28:26
  Speaker 1: ones that had recently become exposed. And yeah, he got
• 2:28:29
  Speaker 1: this day. I mean, I'd like to see that method,
• 2:28:31
  Speaker 1: like tried and tested on sites we know the age
• 2:28:33
  Speaker 1: of and, you know, proven that way before I take
• 2:28:36
  Speaker 1: that too seriously. But, you know, it's interesting.
• 2:28:39
  Speaker 2: It's all interesting. Listen, your show is super interesting. I'm
• 2:28:43
  Speaker 2: so glad you're around. I'm so glad there's someone like
• 2:28:46
  Speaker 2: you that's willing to do that kind of work. Because
• 2:28:48
  Speaker 2: obviously Jamie and I are not going to do it.
• 2:28:51
  Speaker 2: Not this week. but we're super happy to have you
• 2:28:54
  Speaker 2: in anytime you've got some new stuff you want to
• 2:28:56
  Speaker 2: talk about. And I'm really excited that your channel just
• 2:28:59
  Speaker 2: keeps growing because it's really good, man. You can really
• 2:29:02
  Speaker 2: tell you put in so much work and so much
• 2:29:04
  Speaker 2: effort and research and it's just excellent. It's super entertaining
• 2:29:07
  Speaker 2: and it's right up my alley.
• 2:29:08
  Speaker 1: So I appreciate it, Joe.
• 2:29:10
  Speaker 2: Thanks for being the fucking man.
• 2:29:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you, man. Well, straight back at you. And I
• 2:29:14
  Speaker 1: really appreciate all the support you've shown me. Like it
• 2:29:16
  Speaker 1: doesn't go unnoticed, man. Like it, it really means a lot. And, uh, Yeah,
• 2:29:21
  Speaker 1: if I could just do a little self-plug real quick.
• 2:29:23
  Speaker 1: I've got my channel, Michael Button, search it up, everyone,
• 2:29:27
  Speaker 1: and check me out. But also, I just started a
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 1: second channel called Patterns of History because I'm really interested in,
• 2:29:33
  Speaker 1: once we move into recorded history, it's really interesting to
• 2:29:36
  Speaker 1: see how when the silence lifts and we have these
• 2:29:39
  Speaker 1: ruins we can cross-check and these dates we can kind
• 2:29:42
  Speaker 1: of match to different civilizations. It's so interesting how civilizations
• 2:29:46
  Speaker 1: seem to follow the same patterns all over the world
• 2:29:49
  Speaker 1: of rise, collapse, fall, and things like that. And it
• 2:29:52
  Speaker 1: applies today. I think we see the same patterns happening
• 2:29:55
  Speaker 1: and civilizations always think that they're more advanced and there
• 2:30:00
  Speaker 1: we go.
• 2:30:00
  Speaker 2: Thanks.
• 2:30:01
  Speaker 1: And better than the ones before.
• 2:30:02
  Speaker 2: But right.
• 2:30:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's another fucking, I could go on for
• 2:30:05
  Speaker 1: another three hours on that, but it's so, it's so
• 2:30:08
  Speaker 1: interesting how we see the same recurring patterns happen throughout
• 2:30:11
  Speaker 1: civilizations across recorded history as well. So that's like another
• 2:30:14
  Speaker 1: little project that I'm, I'm working on, but I'm still a,
• 2:30:18
  Speaker 1: I'm still going to go as hard as I possibly
• 2:30:19
  Speaker 1: can on the kind of archaeological lost history side of things.
• 2:30:22
  Speaker 2: Well, it's beautiful that you have so much time to
• 2:30:24
  Speaker 2: do two different channels too. It's awesome.
• 2:30:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm trying my best.
• 2:30:28
  Speaker 2: Well, you're kicking ass, dude. Congratulations. It's awesome. Always great
• 2:30:31
  Speaker 2: to have you. Thank you for being here. One more time,
• 2:30:34
  Speaker 2: people want to see your channel. They want to find you.
• 2:30:36
  Speaker 2: What's the best place? I know you're on Spotify now
• 2:30:38
  Speaker 2: as well, right? So just audio?
• 2:30:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's the videos as well.
• 2:30:41
  Speaker 2: It's exactly the same.
• 2:30:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just put them up there so people can,
• 2:30:44
  Speaker 1: if people, some people prefer to listen, they let me
• 2:30:45
  Speaker 1: know that.
• 2:30:46
  Speaker 2: So I put it out there.
• 2:30:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:30:47
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I've got both my channels. I'm also about
• 2:30:49
  Speaker 1: to make some music.
• 2:30:50
  Speaker 2: People should check out my music.
• 2:30:51
  Speaker 5: Oh, really?
• 2:30:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm in a band.
• 2:30:52
  Speaker 2: This is my band. Oh, that's the Alien Head?
• 2:30:54
  Speaker 1: That's why I keep wearing the Alien Head, yeah.
• 2:30:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, what's the name of your band?
• 2:30:57
  Speaker 1: We're called Headache. Can you get it? It's like the headache, yeah.
• 2:31:03
  Speaker 1: So if people want to check that out, it's cool.
• 2:31:04
  Speaker 2: What kind of music? Punk rock. Oh, you're a fucking
• 2:31:07
  Speaker 2: punk rocker.
• 2:31:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a punk rocker, bro. I used to do
• 2:31:09
  Speaker 1: that all the time and then COVID kind of fucked
• 2:31:11
  Speaker 1: us up and we couldn't perform live and our drummer
• 2:31:12
  Speaker 1: moved to Australia. But we're going to try to make
• 2:31:16
  Speaker 1: some music again in the near future, so.
• 2:31:17
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 2:31:18
  Speaker 1: Thisisheadache.com if people want to check that out.
• 2:31:21
  Speaker 2: But, yeah. Check it out. All right. Michael, thank you.
• 2:31:24
  Speaker 2: Appreciate it, Joe. Look at that.
• 2:31:25
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 2:31:26
  Speaker 2: Get us on. Moody-looking motherfuckers.
• 2:31:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the boys.
• 2:31:29
  Speaker 1: The guy in the back.
• 2:31:30
  Speaker 2: Get your hair out of your eyes, bro.
• 2:31:31
  Speaker 1: Can't see you like that.
• 2:31:33
  Speaker 2: All right. Bye, everybody. Bye.