Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #549 Lauren Bright Pacheco with James Soto

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#549 Lauren Bright Pacheco with James Soto · Wrongful Conviction

0:04
Speaker 1: Hey, it's Lauren brad Pacheco, and I am so excited
0:08
Speaker 1: to be back in the host chair for Wrongful Conviction.
0:11
Speaker 1: The new season drops November thirteenth with brand new episodes
0:15
Speaker 1: and more unbelievable stories of people who refuse to let
0:20
Speaker 1: injustice to find them. But while we gear up for launch,
0:24
Speaker 1: I want to take you back to one of my
0:26
Speaker 1: all time favorite conversations from last season. It's with the
0:30
Speaker 1: incredibly inspiring and absolutely unstoppable Jimmy Soto. Jemmy spent forty
0:37
Speaker 1: two years behind bars, making his case the longest wrongful
0:41
Speaker 1: conviction in Illinois history. You'll also hear from his close friend,
0:45
Speaker 1: fellow ex honoree and former cellmate Robert Almodovar. Together, these
0:52
Speaker 1: two are absolutely unforgettable. I mean, dynamic duo doesn't even
0:56
Speaker 1: begin to cover it. I hope you'll enjoy spending time
0:59
Speaker 1: with them as much as I did, and I'll be
1:02
Speaker 1: back in two weeks with more unforgettable profiles of people
1:07
Speaker 1: who turned in justice into strength and hope into freedom.
1:17
Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have
1:21
Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for
1:24
Speaker 1: crimes even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it
1:29
Speaker 1: like to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's
1:32
Speaker 1: it like to be their ally, the one outside committed
1:35
Speaker 1: to fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and
1:39
Speaker 1: this is wrongful conviction. When he was just twenty years old,
1:51
Speaker 1: an act of violence would change James Soto's life forever
1:56
Speaker 1: and the trajectory for the next four decades. At about
2:00
Speaker 1: nine pm on August sixteenth, nineteen eighty one, shots rang
2:03
Speaker 1: out in Chicago's Little Village neighborhood, killing two people and
2:07
Speaker 1: injuring a third. Although eyewitnesses initially pointed to other suspects,
2:12
Speaker 1: police ultimately arrested a few members of the two sixth
2:16
Speaker 1: Street gang, which controlled the territory, including James Soto. Despite
2:22
Speaker 1: no physical evidence tying him to the crime and plenty
2:26
Speaker 1: of defense witnesses, James was convicted of the shooting and
2:30
Speaker 1: sentenced to life without parole. Soto and his cousin David Ayala,
2:35
Speaker 1: would spend forty two years in prison, the longest served
2:39
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction sentences in Illinois history, until they were exonerated
2:44
Speaker 1: in December of twenty twenty three. James Soto is joining
2:50
Speaker 1: me today with a man who's been a tremendous support
2:53
Speaker 1: to him and shares much in common with James as well.
2:58
Speaker 1: In addition to also having been rightfully convicted and exonerated,
3:03
Speaker 1: Robert Almodovar is not only a close friend to James,
3:07
Speaker 1: but the two men were actually cellmates while in prison.
3:10
Speaker 1: Both now share the same passion for raising awareness for
3:13
Speaker 1: criminal justice reform. We have so much to cover. Thank
3:17
Speaker 1: you both for joining me, Jimmy and Robert, well.
3:21
Speaker 2: Thank you for hosting us and having us here.
3:24
Speaker 3: Absolutely, thank you.
3:25
Speaker 1: So Just Jimmy to go back to the very beginning.
3:29
Speaker 1: You know you're now in your sixties, but take me
3:32
Speaker 1: back to the young man you were before all this
3:35
Speaker 1: happened in nineteen eighty one. Where did you grow up
3:38
Speaker 1: and what was your upbringing?
3:39
Speaker 3: Like?
3:41
Speaker 2: All right, Well, I grew up in the Pullman area,
3:43
Speaker 2: which is on the far south side of Chicago on
3:46
Speaker 2: ninety eighth in Avalon. I've learned later in life that
3:50
Speaker 2: the neighborhoods that we grew up in in our formative
3:53
Speaker 2: years really make us who we are. So I will
3:55
Speaker 2: always be a Southsider from Chicago and the people as
3:59
Speaker 2: youicgo because we're so segregated. We're very proud from whatever
4:04
Speaker 2: section of the city that we come from. But yeah,
4:07
Speaker 2: I grew up there. I had a fondness for sports.
4:10
Speaker 2: Baseball was my number one thing. I was on the
4:13
Speaker 2: Avalon Cubs, which at a young age made me a
4:17
Speaker 2: Cup fan, and I am a Cup fan for life,
4:20
Speaker 2: and I was so glad when they won the World Series.
4:22
Speaker 2: Fortunately I was locked up when that happened, but I'll
4:25
Speaker 2: take it. So the summer of my fourteenth birthday, we
4:28
Speaker 2: moved to the Brighton Park area, which is on the
4:31
Speaker 2: southwest side of Chicago, and I stayed there for most
4:35
Speaker 2: of high school. Then in nineteen eighty one, my uncle
4:39
Speaker 2: was murdered by gun violence in the Little Village area,
4:43
Speaker 2: and that was my cousin and co defendant, David Yalla's father,
4:48
Speaker 2: I'll Fonso, and they had her house in Westchester anyway,
4:53
Speaker 2: in the western suburbs, and I wound up going to
4:56
Speaker 2: live with David shortly thereafter. It was a very nice
5:00
Speaker 2: urban home, had a built in swimming pool, It had
5:02
Speaker 2: a mini gym, a greenhouse, five bedrooms, two and a
5:07
Speaker 2: half bats basement, fully furnished so you can imagine David
5:12
Speaker 2: was eighteen and I was twenty. I wouldn't say young men.
5:15
Speaker 2: We were more like late adolescents, teenagers more so. Living
5:20
Speaker 2: in a nice house. And yeah, I mean Dave had
5:24
Speaker 2: some money that his father left them. There was a
5:27
Speaker 2: life insurance policy, so he didn't have to work at
5:30
Speaker 2: the time. I was working at United Parcel Service as
5:34
Speaker 2: a sorterer. But to say that we weren't enjoying ourselves
5:38
Speaker 2: living pretty lavishly would be an understatement. So having all
5:44
Speaker 2: that naturally made the Chicago Police Department CPD seeing us
5:49
Speaker 2: driving luxury, fancy cars, Lincoln Cadillacs, those are the cars
5:54
Speaker 2: of that time period, you.
5:55
Speaker 1: Know, Oh, that's it. So they made the assumption that
5:59
Speaker 1: they knew how you were bankrolling all that.
6:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, the assumption was that it was coming from, you know,
6:04
Speaker 2: illicit drug sales, but that was not the truth. The
6:08
Speaker 2: truth was it was just some things that were left
6:10
Speaker 2: over to David and I'm working. I actually was paying
6:13
Speaker 2: car notes, so my car was being financed. So had
6:17
Speaker 2: they dug a little deeper, they would have realized my
6:20
Speaker 2: car particular was not paid off.
6:22
Speaker 1: Coming from the neighborhoods that you did was gang activity
6:27
Speaker 1: very much on your radar on a daily basis throughout
6:31
Speaker 1: high school.
6:31
Speaker 2: No, absolutely not, it was not. It wasn't really until
6:35
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine when David's brother Alfonso the third gets
6:39
Speaker 2: killed by gun violence. It was very hard for me
6:42
Speaker 2: because it was my brother, David's oldest brother Tyrone. Then
6:49
Speaker 2: it's me and then Alfonso and then David, and we're
6:52
Speaker 2: all one year apart. So I would spend a lot
6:55
Speaker 2: of summers at David's house when they were living in
6:58
Speaker 2: little village. And so that's how I wound up getting
7:04
Speaker 2: involved in any gang was because my cousin had been killed.
7:08
Speaker 2: You know, I took it pretty hard, and as a
7:10
Speaker 2: young he was seventeen, so I would have been eighteen.
7:14
Speaker 2: As a young eighteen year old to have to deal
7:17
Speaker 2: with that, you know, there was no one that gave
7:19
Speaker 2: me any therapy for the trauma I was dealing with,
7:25
Speaker 2: and the loss of I consider more like a brother
7:27
Speaker 2: than a cousin, and so to know that he was
7:30
Speaker 2: killed in that way, I misguidingly wanted to be part
7:35
Speaker 2: of the same thing that he was involved in, to
7:37
Speaker 2: seek some type of revenge. But it wasn't like I
7:40
Speaker 2: was out looking for revenge it was just a way
7:43
Speaker 2: in his honor that I thought, I need to be
7:45
Speaker 2: a part of this, I need to do something. Yeah.
7:49
Speaker 1: And there's also a huge social component of that too.
7:52
Speaker 1: Of course, it's belonging in friendship and camaraderie.
7:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I would not defined myself as a hardcore
8:01
Speaker 2: game member. I was what people would label as a
8:05
Speaker 2: marginal gang member. I was on the fringes. I was
8:08
Speaker 2: not someone because I'm working, I don't have no time
8:11
Speaker 2: to go hang out and do whatever.
8:14
Speaker 1: So had you ever been on law enforcement radar before
8:19
Speaker 1: the incident in the time leading up to it, had
8:22
Speaker 1: you ever had trouble with the law?
8:25
Speaker 2: No? Well, yeah, I was arrested one time for what's
8:29
Speaker 2: called a uu W unlawful use of a weapon. Some
8:32
Speaker 2: detectives that pulled me over and found a gun, unregistered
8:36
Speaker 2: gun in my car and charged me. But when it
8:39
Speaker 2: came down to the problem cause of why they stopped me,
8:43
Speaker 2: it was simply because I was in a Lincoln Continental
8:46
Speaker 2: and I was just I guess you would say, profiled.
8:50
Speaker 2: And my lawyer was able to get the case thrown
8:53
Speaker 2: out pretty easily because of the illegal stop, and the
8:57
Speaker 2: judge threw it out so that was on my criminal record.
9:00
Speaker 2: I had no other runs with law enforcement. When there
9:04
Speaker 2: would be various shootings. Once they knew I was part
9:08
Speaker 2: of a game, I was taken in several times and
9:11
Speaker 2: questioned about it. I just, you know, said I want
9:13
Speaker 2: a lawyer, and they pretty much left me alone.
9:16
Speaker 1: And at the time, so you're employed for two years
9:18
Speaker 1: at that point with you said, ups, what were your
9:21
Speaker 1: thoughts or plans for the future.
9:24
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I had a girlfriend at the time.
9:27
Speaker 2: I just learned, maybe two weeks before I was arrested
9:31
Speaker 2: on this case, that she was pregnant. So in my mind,
9:35
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, she's going to have a baby. When
9:37
Speaker 2: I learned she was pregnant, my thought was, I'm going
9:40
Speaker 2: to settle down. I'm going to have to get my
9:42
Speaker 2: own place and start a little family.
9:45
Speaker 1: So take me to the night of the incident. So
9:50
Speaker 1: it was August sixteenth, nineteen eighty one, around nine pm
9:57
Speaker 1: on the southwest side of Chicago. Where were you at
10:00
Speaker 1: the time.
10:01
Speaker 2: I was in Westchester. It was me, my cousin David,
10:05
Speaker 2: his girlfriend, my girlfriend, and my oldest sister with two
10:10
Speaker 2: of her kids were at the house, and my sister
10:13
Speaker 2: had prepared a meal for us, and I remember that
10:17
Speaker 2: I just got my two plates and I went up
10:19
Speaker 2: to my bedroom with my girlfriend and we were watching
10:22
Speaker 2: some movies on the VCR, so long ago. Those things
10:27
Speaker 2: are now no longer in existence. And yeah, she left
10:31
Speaker 2: later in the evening, at around ten o'clock. So they
10:36
Speaker 2: had the story on the ten o'clock news about, you know,
10:39
Speaker 2: two people being shot killed and one third one being
10:43
Speaker 2: injured at an incident in Petrowski or a Keiler park.
10:46
Speaker 1: So, for somebody who's not familiar with the geography, how
10:49
Speaker 1: far were you physically away from where the shooting occurred.
10:55
Speaker 2: I would say that was a distance of about thirty
10:58
Speaker 2: miles at least.
11:00
Speaker 1: Thirty miles away. And unfortunately, yes, three people were shot
11:06
Speaker 1: to fatally wounded, a sixteen year old Julie Limas who
11:11
Speaker 1: was aspiring to be a police officer, and an eighteen
11:14
Speaker 1: year old Hector Valeriano, who was on leave from the
11:18
Speaker 1: US Marine Corps at the time. So it's a tragic incident,
11:24
Speaker 1: but you're thirty miles away from it at the time.
11:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, my thought was, you know, that's a terrible thing
11:32
Speaker 2: that happened in the neighborhood of the gang or organization
11:37
Speaker 2: that we were part of, but I didn't give it
11:39
Speaker 2: a second thought to think who might have had any
11:42
Speaker 2: involvement in it. I figured, oh, they're going to get
11:44
Speaker 2: somebody for this, But little did I know they would
11:47
Speaker 2: eventually try to point the finger at me.
11:49
Speaker 1: So yeah, the investigation ends up focusing on gang rivalries,
11:54
Speaker 1: and even though eyewitness accounts identified entirely different people, the
11:59
Speaker 1: investigation then starts focusing on the two six gang that
12:04
Speaker 1: you're affiliated with, but just on the fringe. When did
12:08
Speaker 1: you find out that you were on the investigators radar?
12:14
Speaker 2: To my knowledge, my name doesn't really come up until
12:17
Speaker 2: the month of October. I believe that's when they finally
12:21
Speaker 2: start saying, well, okay, because they thought they was involved.
12:25
Speaker 2: They said, okay, well this other guy has to be
12:27
Speaker 2: involved as well. But it was never really founded on,
12:31
Speaker 2: like you said, on any eyewitness identifying me. It was
12:35
Speaker 2: just they now said, okay, if David's involved, this other
12:38
Speaker 2: guy got to be involved as well.
12:40
Speaker 1: So they just bundled you with your cousin and neither
12:44
Speaker 1: of you were there, correct, So how were you arrested?
12:48
Speaker 1: How did that go down? Where were you? Who were
12:50
Speaker 1: you with?
12:51
Speaker 2: So I got arrested on October fifteenth, Once again, I
12:54
Speaker 2: was in Westchester with my girlfriend, and ironically my sister
12:58
Speaker 2: was there as well, the oldest, so that would be
13:01
Speaker 2: later be my alibi. She was there. She made another
13:05
Speaker 2: homemade meal, I remember it. It was spaghetti with homemade
13:08
Speaker 2: meatballs and Italian sausage and a garlic bread. And I
13:13
Speaker 2: was just beginning my plate to take it upstairs with
13:15
Speaker 2: me and my girl to share, when we hear the
13:18
Speaker 2: knock on the door, boom boom, and then there's a
13:20
Speaker 2: pounding on the back door, boom boom. I'm like, what's
13:23
Speaker 2: going on? So we look out the window and we
13:26
Speaker 2: see all these lights and policemen running up to the thing.
13:29
Speaker 2: We open the door and they come in and cuple
13:32
Speaker 2: us up. They just said they had a warrant. They
13:34
Speaker 2: didn't say it was an unrest warrant. They didn't say
13:36
Speaker 2: whether it was a search warrant. Yeah, So they went
13:39
Speaker 2: about the house searching it, obviously not coming up with anything,
13:44
Speaker 2: and they took us into custody. And when I get
13:47
Speaker 2: to the police station is when I first learned that.
13:49
Speaker 2: They tell me you're under arrest for two murders and
13:53
Speaker 2: a tent murder and this is a capital of fence
13:57
Speaker 2: and you better say something now if you want to
13:58
Speaker 2: save yourself.
14:00
Speaker 1: Well, Jimmy, what was going through your mind? You must
14:03
Speaker 1: have thought, all right, stupid mistake. It's going to be corrected.
14:08
Speaker 2: That's exactly what's going through my mind. I'm like, this
14:11
Speaker 2: can't be right, you know. Fortunately, there was an attorney
14:14
Speaker 2: that was at the police station who would later become
14:16
Speaker 2: my trial attorney. And he came and spoke with me
14:19
Speaker 2: and said, they said they have witnesses, and he said,
14:22
Speaker 2: I don't have any of the paperwork. He asked me,
14:24
Speaker 2: point blank, did you have anything to do with it?
14:25
Speaker 2: Of course I told him no, And he's like, well,
14:28
Speaker 2: don't worry about it. If you didn't have nothing to
14:30
Speaker 2: do with it, it'll work out. Just don't say anything.
14:34
Speaker 2: And that was it. So in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay,
14:37
Speaker 2: it's a mistake, and you know, they could be cleared
14:39
Speaker 2: up fairly soon and I'll be out. But that wasn't
14:43
Speaker 2: the case.
14:44
Speaker 1: From that moment on. You're held until your trial.
14:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was held with no bond in the Cook
14:49
Speaker 2: County jail. I was there for probably a year before
14:53
Speaker 2: I went to trial. I went to September of nineteen
14:55
Speaker 2: eighty two to trial, but leading up to it, I
14:59
Speaker 2: would eventually find out some pieces of like that they
15:03
Speaker 2: only had one witness who would be best termed an
15:07
Speaker 2: accomplished witness. He was a young teenager as well, and
15:11
Speaker 2: he made a statement that David and I were supposedly
15:15
Speaker 2: conspiring prior to the shooting with a group of other
15:18
Speaker 2: individuals to attack a rival group. That David gets a
15:22
Speaker 2: phone call and David then provides the key to a
15:25
Speaker 2: custom blue van and gives us weapons, and we go
15:31
Speaker 2: out to the park and me and another co defendant
15:34
Speaker 2: supposedly walk down the gangway and shoot at the people.
15:38
Speaker 2: And you know there was three victims as a result.
15:41
Speaker 1: But that seems like a very convenient theory.
15:45
Speaker 2: Well it was for them. Yeah, I didn't know that
15:48
Speaker 2: they had rounded up again to the Colaster trial, that
15:51
Speaker 2: they rounded up twenty five people with the West warrants,
15:54
Speaker 2: and that out of the twenty five, at least maybe
15:57
Speaker 2: ten or maybe twelve of them made statements which collaborated
16:02
Speaker 2: in some sense what this individual was saying. But you
16:04
Speaker 2: have to bear in mind that there was probably only
16:07
Speaker 2: out of the twenty five people, maybe five were over
16:10
Speaker 2: the age of seventeen. Everybody else was fifteen and sixteen
16:13
Speaker 2: year olds, and I was really mad that, you know,
16:15
Speaker 2: these individuals who were supposed to be part of a
16:18
Speaker 2: group that I was involved in, would break down and
16:21
Speaker 2: make this false narrative. And so my reaction was as
16:25
Speaker 2: a young man that these guys are punks, they're chumps,
16:28
Speaker 2: they're snitches. But as I became more mature and I
16:32
Speaker 2: was doing my studies, I realized that they were just
16:36
Speaker 2: as much victims and or even more so than anyone
16:40
Speaker 2: else other than those that lost their lives and the
16:43
Speaker 2: other that got shot. Because they were held for three days.
16:46
Speaker 2: Imagine you a fifteen year old held three days in custody.
16:50
Speaker 2: Some of them urinated on themselves, being choked, getting nothing
16:54
Speaker 2: to eat, denied water, I mean, the sleep deprivation. I
17:00
Speaker 2: had to look at it. Putting myself in their shoes,
17:03
Speaker 2: I probably would have broke down and said anything they
17:05
Speaker 2: wanted me to say at that point. So, you know,
17:08
Speaker 2: the police officers, law enforcement have techniques that they could
17:11
Speaker 2: make a grown man who was innocent telling themselves, so,
17:14
Speaker 2: let alone a juveniles. So that started to make sense
17:18
Speaker 2: to me as in the following years after my conviction.
17:21
Speaker 2: What really was going on?
17:23
Speaker 1: I'm trying just to get my mindset wrapped around. You're
17:29
Speaker 1: living your life, have a steady job, have a steady girlfriend,
17:34
Speaker 1: have a baby on the way. You're twenty years old,
17:38
Speaker 1: and your life is just interrupted, taken away from you.
17:44
Speaker 1: What was that year like for you being held in
17:47
Speaker 1: the Cook County jail.
17:50
Speaker 2: I mean, it was probably one of the worst and
17:54
Speaker 2: hardest years of my life because my girlfriend would eventually
17:57
Speaker 2: lose the baby. She had a miscare. It was due
18:00
Speaker 2: to squarely to stress. She wasn't eating right because she's
18:04
Speaker 2: worried about me. I'm locked up. My car gets repossessed.
18:08
Speaker 2: You know, expensive rims on my car. I had a
18:11
Speaker 2: nice sound system. When they repossess it, it's not like
18:13
Speaker 2: they're going to give it back. They take all that
18:15
Speaker 2: with it. So I lost that. I was upset with that.
18:17
Speaker 1: But are you in contact at all with your cousin
18:21
Speaker 1: David at this point? Is he being held at the
18:23
Speaker 1: same facility.
18:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with him for the most part. For I
18:28
Speaker 2: would say at least half of that time, or maybe
18:32
Speaker 2: seven months we were held together. There was periods where
18:35
Speaker 2: we would be split up. You know, That's how the
18:37
Speaker 2: jail is oftentimes you're moving to another section of the
18:39
Speaker 2: jail and they don't really give you any reasons why.
18:42
Speaker 2: It's just it's disruptive. The jail is not nice, it's
18:46
Speaker 2: super violent, and you're going to get in fights. It's
18:49
Speaker 2: just part of what's going on there. And we're packed
18:52
Speaker 2: in there. There was overcrowding problem. It was people sleeping
18:55
Speaker 2: on the floor in the dayroom. So you got this
18:58
Speaker 2: group of people and you don't have so much time.
19:00
Speaker 2: It was always fights over the phone if nothing else.
19:03
Speaker 2: So yeah, Dad, in TV, what show you're gonna watch,
19:06
Speaker 2: what channel you're gonna watch on TV? I would always
19:09
Speaker 2: wind up be in a fight.
19:10
Speaker 1: So in terms of you and David, your mindset heading
19:15
Speaker 1: into that trial, how would you categorize the trial in general?
19:19
Speaker 1: And were you at all confident?
19:22
Speaker 2: I didn't. I don't know much about the law of
19:25
Speaker 2: the legal system. It's process, and so my attorney puts
19:29
Speaker 2: on an alibi defense, and I told you, the only
19:32
Speaker 2: evidence that really comes up that indicates either David or
19:35
Speaker 2: I is this so called accomplished witness, and he had
19:39
Speaker 2: implicated two people in this conspiracy as being part of
19:43
Speaker 2: this meeting that led up to the shooting. One was
19:48
Speaker 2: in the hospital in a coma told state after being
19:51
Speaker 2: hit by a car. So he's in Mother Cabreinging hospital
19:55
Speaker 2: on the West Side in a coma. Mind you, this
19:58
Speaker 2: guy testifies before the grand jury that he's evolved with
20:01
Speaker 2: the case. The second individual was in juvenile custody and
20:06
Speaker 2: he had to plcase him as well. So this individual
20:09
Speaker 2: locked up ten days before this crimer, maybe even longer.
20:13
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, Okay, we're showing that he clearly lied
20:16
Speaker 2: before the grand jury. And here's another fact. The accomplished
20:19
Speaker 2: witness says that David owned a Blue Custom van. No
20:23
Speaker 2: Blue Custom band was ever recovered. They never showed David
20:27
Speaker 2: owned one. Now one person says he owns this band,
20:30
Speaker 2: that he ever had a van, There's no weapons ever recovered.
20:34
Speaker 2: And then they said there's a phone call that happens
20:36
Speaker 2: from Home Run and Pizza to David's house in Westchester
20:40
Speaker 2: slightly probably a half hour before the shooting happens, supposedly
20:45
Speaker 2: from two young women who say that they alert David
20:49
Speaker 2: that there's a rival group in there. Well day subpoena
20:52
Speaker 2: the Illinois Bell telephone records, which showed no phone call
20:56
Speaker 2: was made from home run in that entire night. Today
21:00
Speaker 2: its house. So again these things I'm hearing during trial,
21:04
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, oh, well, there's no way they're going
21:07
Speaker 2: to find me guilty if they're hearing dead And so
21:09
Speaker 2: I'm thinking in my mind, as my lawyer told me,
21:12
Speaker 2: you're going to beat this case. You're going home whenever
21:15
Speaker 2: the jury comes back. There's no way they're going to
21:17
Speaker 2: find you guilty. So I'm thinking, yeah, I'm going home.
21:21
Speaker 1: Because you have multiple witnesses who attest your alibi and
21:26
Speaker 1: innocence being told by your defense that you should be confident.
21:31
Speaker 1: Take me to the moment that the jury announces their verdict.
21:37
Speaker 2: It was maybe close to nine and a half hours
21:40
Speaker 2: at a period of two days, the first evening into
21:43
Speaker 2: the next day that the jury is deliberating, and they
21:47
Speaker 2: send a note down and tell the judge that they're
21:49
Speaker 2: struggling to come up with a verdict and they think
21:51
Speaker 2: that they might be a hung jury because they cannot
21:54
Speaker 2: come to a unanimous decision on this case. And so
21:58
Speaker 2: my lawyer said, well, that's a good thing. That means
22:00
Speaker 2: they're struggling. Well, the judge just tells the jury go back.
22:03
Speaker 2: He wouldn't accept them saying that they were hung. About
22:07
Speaker 2: a half hour later, they come in guilty of all charges.
22:10
Speaker 2: So when I hear that verdict, when you know you
22:12
Speaker 2: got to stand up to hear it, the reaction was,
22:14
Speaker 2: you can hear of some gasp. The state's attorneys were jubilant.
22:19
Speaker 2: They were high five in each other, and I'm looking
22:21
Speaker 2: at them. Then I turn around to look at my
22:24
Speaker 2: family and just see them all breaking down in tears.
22:26
Speaker 2: To see my father, who was the rock, the foundation
22:29
Speaker 2: of our family, broken down crying. My sister's crying, my
22:34
Speaker 2: girlfriend crying. It made me furious. I looked at my attorney.
22:37
Speaker 2: I said, I thought you said we're going to beat this.
22:39
Speaker 2: What happened. I looked at the judge, I looked at
22:41
Speaker 2: the jury, looked them in the eye, and I'm like,
22:44
Speaker 2: how could this happen? How could you come up with
22:46
Speaker 2: a guilty verdict based on such flimsy evidence. So when
22:51
Speaker 2: I do talk to my lawyer once again in the bullpen,
22:53
Speaker 2: he comes to see me. He's seeing the how upset
22:57
Speaker 2: I was, and he was like, no, you got to
22:59
Speaker 2: hang in there. You got to be strong. I said,
23:01
Speaker 2: it's easy for you to say, and I said, so,
23:03
Speaker 2: what are we looking at and he's telling me that, well, unfortunately,
23:07
Speaker 2: the laws in Illinois are that if you're found guilty
23:11
Speaker 2: of two or more murders, you've got to mandatorily get
23:14
Speaker 2: natural life. And I'm like, so what does that mean.
23:17
Speaker 2: He's like, it means what it means. And I'm like really,
23:21
Speaker 2: and he said, no, don't worry, We're going to go
23:22
Speaker 2: on appeal. We're going to do the appeal. There's a
23:24
Speaker 2: lot of things they're done wrong.
23:36
Speaker 1: So months turned to years turned to decades.
23:41
Speaker 2: What was the.
23:42
Speaker 1: Biggest hurdle for you transitioning to life in prison.
23:48
Speaker 2: The most difficult thing is being away from family, hearing
23:51
Speaker 2: the family milestones, graduations, baptisms, communions, weddings. I wasn't there
23:58
Speaker 2: to see people have their you know, the birth of
24:00
Speaker 2: a child that's such a celebration, and so many families
24:03
Speaker 2: when a new life comes in there and I'm not there,
24:06
Speaker 2: it was difficult for me to deal with. And then
24:07
Speaker 2: of course trying to maintain a relationship that certainly was
24:12
Speaker 2: very hard. They got to come visit, you got to
24:14
Speaker 2: make phone calls, et cetera, and so forth.
24:17
Speaker 1: Well, there's so many layers to that. Onion, and also
24:21
Speaker 1: in terms of you know, you're missing those events with
24:24
Speaker 1: your family, but your family is missing them with you.
24:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I would always want to put on
24:31
Speaker 2: the strong front. I'm okay, don't worry about me, you know.
24:34
Speaker 2: And as I started studying the law, I was able
24:36
Speaker 2: to articulate to them some of the things that were wrong. Hey, listen,
24:40
Speaker 2: my attorney didn't do this, or the prosecution did this.
24:42
Speaker 2: And so when I was able to do that, I
24:45
Speaker 2: guess they would see the hope emanating from me, and
24:49
Speaker 2: so it would make them feel a little bit more
24:51
Speaker 2: at ease. But there was times it wasn't easy. Prisons
24:54
Speaker 2: in the eighties and early nineties was in Illinois were
24:57
Speaker 2: particularly violent. State Bill was very violent. I mean murders
25:00
Speaker 2: occurring there. There was a lot of things that, you know,
25:03
Speaker 2: a lot of stabbings, a lot of assaults.
25:05
Speaker 1: That's a question that I have for you because even
25:08
Speaker 1: though your affiliation with a gang ended up getting you
25:13
Speaker 1: on the radar of the police in a way, did
25:16
Speaker 1: that affiliation protect you at all once you were in
25:19
Speaker 1: the inside.
25:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, you had to be. I was definitely affiliated with
25:24
Speaker 2: the gangs in there. But the downside of that is
25:26
Speaker 2: that when other individuals would do, you know, do things like,
25:31
Speaker 2: for example, somebody would gamble and then not be able
25:34
Speaker 2: to pay. Now this individual is going to get into
25:36
Speaker 2: a fighter. I have problems with another group, another person
25:40
Speaker 2: from another group, which then involves everybody, and now here
25:43
Speaker 2: it is we're fighting in there over somebody who should
25:46
Speaker 2: have never been gambling because he didn't have the money
25:48
Speaker 2: to pay in the first place. At some point in
25:51
Speaker 2: the mid nineties, I said, this isn't getting me anywhere.
25:53
Speaker 2: You know, I was smart enough to know that this
25:56
Speaker 2: behavior is viewed as a negative, and I didn't want
25:59
Speaker 2: to be in that light. And so I'm no longer.
26:02
Speaker 2: I don't want to be a part of it, no
26:03
Speaker 2: long no more. I'm sure people looked at me like
26:06
Speaker 2: he's flaking out, he's he can't handle it, But I
26:09
Speaker 2: didn't care. I think that was one of the best
26:11
Speaker 2: choices in my life. That happened around ninety six. And yeah,
26:14
Speaker 2: I mean, well.
26:15
Speaker 1: You know what, it's maturity too, But you were doing
26:18
Speaker 1: what you needed to do to survive through your younger twenties.
26:24
Speaker 1: How long did you and your girlfriend stay together?
26:27
Speaker 2: We were probably together for the first ten years of
26:29
Speaker 2: my incarceration, and in retrospect, I look at it. We're
26:32
Speaker 2: arguing about really simple things like how come you to
26:35
Speaker 2: pick up my phone call? Where were you at? You know,
26:37
Speaker 2: Accusations that she might be cheating on me, and those
26:40
Speaker 2: type of things eventually deteriorated us and she wound up
26:44
Speaker 2: having a relationship with someone else. But she would period
26:47
Speaker 2: I'm in and out of my life over my incarceration,
26:49
Speaker 2: and in the end for the last like you know,
26:52
Speaker 2: seven years, I would say she was there for me.
26:55
Speaker 2: But yeah, it makes it easier to have a love
26:59
Speaker 2: interest in prison, knowing that somebody cares about you. I
27:02
Speaker 2: never really doubted the fact that she didn't have feelings
27:05
Speaker 2: for me or her loved me.
27:06
Speaker 1: It's hard to maintain a relationship exactly.
27:09
Speaker 2: The physical absence is hard.
27:12
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, you began spending a chunk of your
27:16
Speaker 1: time in the law library.
27:18
Speaker 2: Well. As I became more and more proficient in the
27:22
Speaker 2: tenants and the operation of the law procedures, etc. I
27:27
Speaker 2: began to have success winning particularly at first just sensed
27:31
Speaker 2: reductions for a lot of individuals, and eventually I wont
27:34
Speaker 2: some new trials. I began to get more new trials,
27:36
Speaker 2: more sentence reductions, and so I was also doing civil complaints.
27:41
Speaker 2: Guys would eventually went on that.
27:43
Speaker 1: So you became what they call a jail house lawyer.
27:48
Speaker 2: Yeah. I never did particularly like that term. I like
27:51
Speaker 2: to call myself a prisoner advocate, but yeah, that's definitely
27:54
Speaker 2: what that was termed.
27:55
Speaker 1: But I think that's so admirable.
27:57
Speaker 2: Jimmy.
27:58
Speaker 1: What was the turning point for you? Because I can't
28:00
Speaker 1: imagine the anger and the frustration your life's been taken
28:05
Speaker 1: away from you and decades at this point, where did
28:09
Speaker 1: you turn that into I'm going to figure out enough
28:14
Speaker 1: to help not only myself, but to help other people.
28:18
Speaker 2: My thought process was this that if I could be
28:22
Speaker 2: proficient or do adequate work for other individuals, it would
28:25
Speaker 2: just make me a better litigator and I could hone
28:28
Speaker 2: my skills that way work it through others. Again, looking back,
28:32
Speaker 2: my early attempts was by trial and error, and I'm
28:35
Speaker 2: a bit of a perfectionist, I will admit that, and
28:37
Speaker 2: so I said I could do this. But I always
28:40
Speaker 2: kept education at the forefront. I was always involved in
28:43
Speaker 2: some type of classes or some type of program, and
28:46
Speaker 2: a lot of it sometimes with self taught. I would
28:48
Speaker 2: just bother to use the materials there with the law library.
28:52
Speaker 1: So now we're getting to the point where you crossed
28:55
Speaker 1: paths with our other wonderful esteemed guests. Robert, we've talked
29:00
Speaker 1: about this. I'm not gonna dive too heavily into the specifics,
29:03
Speaker 1: but in a nutshell, you and a co defendant were
29:07
Speaker 1: convicted in nineteen ninety five of a double homicide the
29:12
Speaker 1: year before, and at the time you were a young father,
29:16
Speaker 1: working long hours and attending night school, and when you
29:19
Speaker 1: were rested, you had no previous convictions. You were twenty
29:24
Speaker 1: when you were convicted, which is something that you two
29:27
Speaker 1: gentlemen share in common. And the case against you rested
29:33
Speaker 1: on eyewitness reports obtained by a rather notorious now retired
29:38
Speaker 1: Chicago police detective named Rinaldo Guervera. He's since come under
29:45
Speaker 1: fire over allegations he coerced witnesses and framed innocent people
29:49
Speaker 1: in dozens of other investigations. But you two are in prison.
29:55
Speaker 1: You're both wrongfully convicted. Take me to the first moment
29:59
Speaker 1: you're has crossed, and Robert, why don't you tell me
30:02
Speaker 1: about meeting mister Soto for the first time.
30:06
Speaker 3: Jimmy Soto. I heard of him.
30:08
Speaker 4: You know his name is under like a legend in
30:10
Speaker 4: prison basically because everybody know who he was. Everybody knows
30:14
Speaker 4: all the work he did and how he helped a
30:16
Speaker 4: lot of people. So I knew of him before I
30:18
Speaker 4: ever met him. So he was in state Ville, he
30:21
Speaker 4: didn't getting trampied to Minar. When he got to Thenar,
30:24
Speaker 4: you know, believe or not, everybody was like static because
30:28
Speaker 4: this guy who helped a lot of people is now
30:31
Speaker 4: in Minar. So everybody wanted to reach out to him,
30:34
Speaker 4: contact him, some type of way to get his assistant something,
30:38
Speaker 4: because he a type of prison you know, his reputation
30:41
Speaker 4: receives him as far as he's an up, upstanding guy.
30:45
Speaker 1: So you arrived at Minard with a fan club in place,
30:49
Speaker 1: Yes he did.
30:49
Speaker 4: He's really shy about that, I guess, but this is
30:53
Speaker 4: who he is. This is reputation.
30:54
Speaker 1: Then do you remember the first time you met him?
30:57
Speaker 4: Yes, I was in the same set house as he
30:59
Speaker 4: was Soft Flowers in Minar. He was on two, I
31:03
Speaker 4: was on four and I think his SETI was in
31:06
Speaker 4: up going home or something like that.
31:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, he got parole, Yeah, he.
31:10
Speaker 4: Got parole and he was looking for the sally And
31:13
Speaker 4: one of the gadded workers asked me what your life is,
31:16
Speaker 4: Jimmie Soler SELLI.
31:16
Speaker 3: I was like, hell, yeah, why wouldn't that be?
31:20
Speaker 4: So they end up moving me to his cell at
31:23
Speaker 4: the time, he was in the yard. So I'm gonna
31:25
Speaker 4: sell by myself. I got my property in there, I
31:28
Speaker 4: got situated, and when he came in to cell, I
31:32
Speaker 4: went to induce myself my name is you know with
31:34
Speaker 4: Berta Amovar.
31:35
Speaker 3: He like, I know who you are? Ready? Like how
31:37
Speaker 3: you know me already? How the hell you know who
31:40
Speaker 3: I am? Said? I know your uncle.
31:42
Speaker 4: I was a lot with your uncle in Stateville, and
31:43
Speaker 4: hesld me everything about your case, everything bout you, And
31:47
Speaker 4: I was like, whoa.
31:48
Speaker 3: I was surprised.
31:49
Speaker 1: I loved the nicknamed Sally for sale made. It's very
31:55
Speaker 1: much an Illinois thing too. I've never met anybody who
31:58
Speaker 1: spent time in Illinois who didn't use selly. But how
32:03
Speaker 1: does that impact on a day to day if you've
32:06
Speaker 1: got a good cell mate or a bad cellmate? Because
32:09
Speaker 1: just describe the space that you two were sharing.
32:12
Speaker 4: Oh my god, to sell like what how big was?
32:15
Speaker 4: This was a spall sl six by nine, six by nine,
32:18
Speaker 4: bumpits and sinking Tobb in the back of the room.
32:21
Speaker 4: Real small compact cell. And as far as Sally's, it
32:26
Speaker 4: make a big difference. You've got a good SETI or
32:28
Speaker 4: a bad seting. It can you know, it can make
32:30
Speaker 4: your time hard or easy. And so we do get
32:33
Speaker 4: a good seting. You want to keep them far long
32:36
Speaker 4: as you can.
32:37
Speaker 1: So you guys were seal mates for four years?
32:41
Speaker 3: About four three years?
32:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, more likely? All right?
32:44
Speaker 1: So what made you guys good sale mates?
32:47
Speaker 3: We just jail real quickly.
32:48
Speaker 4: I mean, so you walk in the cell, you you
32:51
Speaker 4: could tell you right away by the first couple of
32:54
Speaker 4: second is you two will get along with that right
32:58
Speaker 4: there and then. And we never had no arguments. We
33:01
Speaker 4: never had no disagreement. We just jail. We cooked together,
33:05
Speaker 4: we ate together. We had common ground as far as
33:08
Speaker 4: our cases go. I look at to him like a
33:10
Speaker 4: big brother, like a father figure. I mean he showed
33:14
Speaker 4: me and taught me a little about the law and
33:16
Speaker 4: just the case we did separated. He basically taught me
33:19
Speaker 4: what I wrote that note, so what I need to
33:21
Speaker 4: do just case get separated, And that's way I know
33:24
Speaker 4: what to do with my legal stuff. He became family,
33:28
Speaker 4: you know, because being at cell like twenty three to one,
33:32
Speaker 4: most of the time, you know, the cell is so small.
33:36
Speaker 4: You get you know, there's nothing to do but top
33:38
Speaker 4: and you know each other backgrounds, family stuff, so it
33:43
Speaker 4: got real personal. He probably know me better than my
33:45
Speaker 4: own family. To be honest with.
33:46
Speaker 1: You, I can imagine that any bad character trait the
33:49
Speaker 1: other person has is like magnified, you know, put on
33:53
Speaker 1: volume ten. Absolutely so neither one of you had annoying
33:58
Speaker 1: habits that bothered the other one.
34:00
Speaker 2: Come on, I mean he came in, he didn't have
34:02
Speaker 2: a lot of hair on his face, but he would
34:04
Speaker 2: take a long time to shave. In fact, he probably
34:07
Speaker 2: won't admit this, but one of the things I did
34:09
Speaker 2: do was Robert got locked up fairly young too, and
34:12
Speaker 2: I would later learn that his father wasn't in his
34:15
Speaker 2: life when he came into purbity. When his hair is
34:18
Speaker 2: coming in, so Robert was shaving against the grain, and
34:21
Speaker 2: I would tell him, you got to go with the
34:23
Speaker 2: grain in order not to have irritation, because sometimes he
34:25
Speaker 2: would have it. Roberts has very sensitive skin, and so
34:29
Speaker 2: I would tell him you got to go with it, so,
34:30
Speaker 2: you know, to show him how to shave.
34:32
Speaker 1: I love that you taught him how to shave correctly.
34:35
Speaker 2: No more razor, the right way to she knew how
34:38
Speaker 2: to shave right.
34:41
Speaker 1: And Robert Jimmy didn't do anything that that ever got
34:44
Speaker 1: on your nerves.
34:46
Speaker 2: I mean it was now and then he would play
34:48
Speaker 2: some music a bit loud when I was doing legal work,
34:50
Speaker 2: but I would just with my own headphones on the
34:52
Speaker 2: list to my own music, you know. I mean, there
34:55
Speaker 2: was ways in which we could avoid being in each
34:58
Speaker 2: other's space. We did eventually get separated, and I would
35:01
Speaker 2: eventually wind up going to another unit, North one, and
35:04
Speaker 2: he remained in the South House.
35:06
Speaker 4: But due at the time though, he was able to
35:07
Speaker 4: still stay able to communicate with Yeah. Yes, and the
35:11
Speaker 4: way we did that we wrote kites and ky started
35:14
Speaker 4: just like letters basically keep him up today, what's going
35:16
Speaker 4: on with my family? Was going on my case and
35:19
Speaker 4: vice versa or sometimes and we meet up at church
35:23
Speaker 4: and we talk about certain things and stuff like that
35:25
Speaker 4: at church.
35:26
Speaker 1: So, you guys, it very much sounds like Jimmy, you
35:28
Speaker 1: took Robert under your way.
35:31
Speaker 2: Yes he did well, Yeah, I mean, but it was reciprocal.
35:35
Speaker 2: It wasn't all that stad. He would look out for me,
35:37
Speaker 2: make sure I was straight. You need anything, if you
35:39
Speaker 2: need something, let me know. You know. So there was
35:41
Speaker 2: times that one unit might go on lockdown. The other
35:44
Speaker 2: wooden man, you know, send me some summer sausages and
35:46
Speaker 2: send me this. He would gladly send it. Tuna. I
35:49
Speaker 2: love tuna, so he would send me tune.
35:51
Speaker 3: He's a big It was the same way.
35:52
Speaker 2: If he needed something, I would look out for him.
35:54
Speaker 3: But not just that.
35:55
Speaker 4: Jimmy fortunately be across in crosserted for Solan that he
35:57
Speaker 4: knows a lot of people he got connect and sue.
36:00
Speaker 4: As far as politics and stuff like that, he can't
36:02
Speaker 4: taught me at that politics game. In prison, you know,
36:05
Speaker 4: have to govern around things also, and like I usually
36:09
Speaker 4: get what onions, tomatoes, you know, eased to buy them
36:13
Speaker 4: off the gay green peppers, you know, ice cream, ice
36:17
Speaker 4: cream suits get ice cream, you know.
36:19
Speaker 1: So there were ways you could maneuver better, better food choices.
36:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been locked up longer. So going to Minard,
36:28
Speaker 2: I knew a lot of individuals that were down there already.
36:30
Speaker 2: I had done legal work for some of them. They
36:32
Speaker 2: were so glad to see me, they wanted to send
36:34
Speaker 2: me stuff. I would never tell somebody give me, you know,
36:37
Speaker 2: expert doing work. Why you know, you get it you
36:41
Speaker 2: know this for that, but they would gladly say the
36:43
Speaker 2: same thing. Robert would say, are you okay? So there
36:45
Speaker 2: was a lot of people would often has to be
36:47
Speaker 2: you need something, I'm over in the kitchen. I need
36:49
Speaker 2: someone over here while I get some ice cream. Mode.
36:51
Speaker 1: So that kind of support must be so important just
36:55
Speaker 1: in terms of your emotional and mental state.
36:59
Speaker 3: Mental state, Yeah, absolutely, But.
37:01
Speaker 1: How did you guys? Do you remember any time, particularly
37:04
Speaker 1: for the one another, where you guys hit a tough
37:08
Speaker 1: patch where you showed up for the other person.
37:12
Speaker 2: For him, I understood, you know, he was away from
37:15
Speaker 2: his daughter, so she was going up, or she would
37:18
Speaker 2: the family would set a visit and were able to come,
37:20
Speaker 2: and vice versa. My family would set a visit, they
37:22
Speaker 2: wouldn't come, so we would pick each other up. You
37:24
Speaker 2: are right, or you know, we'd make a special meal,
37:27
Speaker 2: or he did most of the cooking, to be honest,
37:29
Speaker 2: because I'm not a very good chef. But yeah, he
37:32
Speaker 2: made a good piece of puff. I'll tell you that
37:34
Speaker 2: I caught it hot pockets. Yeah, well it's a piece
37:36
Speaker 2: of puff. But anyway, No, the thing is that you know,
37:41
Speaker 2: if you're really in there with somebody like this, in
37:43
Speaker 2: a small space, you could pick up on the energies
37:46
Speaker 2: and sometimes just not talking to somebody isn't enough. Just
37:49
Speaker 2: give them their space because they're in their thoughts and
37:52
Speaker 2: I would do that or he would do that for me,
37:54
Speaker 2: and we would know not to bother the other person.
37:56
Speaker 2: So it's just that type of sense makes it much
38:00
Speaker 2: more companion.
38:01
Speaker 4: Also also just also for like the birthdays, Christmas and
38:04
Speaker 4: stuff like that, because we are so far. The Menar
38:07
Speaker 4: is like six to eight hours for the city, so
38:10
Speaker 4: to get visits and stuffing that is very hard. My family,
38:13
Speaker 4: I didn't see my fan for a while. You know,
38:15
Speaker 4: they come for first to once every three months, once
38:18
Speaker 4: every six months, once a year. They went so once
38:20
Speaker 4: every three years. Then it's just you know it away.
38:24
Speaker 1: Again it's that passing of time. And so so you know, Robert,
38:28
Speaker 1: you were in there for over two decades and then
38:33
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen life changed for you big time. You're
38:53
Speaker 1: listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You can
38:56
Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts
38:59
Speaker 1: one week early and adfree by subscribing to Lava for
39:03
Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. So when you found out
39:11
Speaker 1: you were getting out. How did you tell Jimmy? Do
39:15
Speaker 1: you remember?
39:18
Speaker 3: Well?
39:19
Speaker 4: I was a menar for I think about twenty one years,
39:21
Speaker 4: twenty one and a half years, and during my twenty
39:25
Speaker 4: first year, they asked.
39:26
Speaker 3: Me, I want to go to Gailsburg. I'm like, sure,
39:29
Speaker 3: no problem, why not?
39:32
Speaker 4: But the thing is, I tell him about the news
39:33
Speaker 4: that you know, there's some stuff going on in my case,
39:35
Speaker 4: but I really know what's going to happen. I was
39:37
Speaker 4: in Gailsburg for about two to three weeks and that's
39:41
Speaker 4: when I get the phone call from my lawyer talking about, man,
39:45
Speaker 4: I got some good.
39:45
Speaker 3: News for you. You basically coming home tomorrow Friday.
39:49
Speaker 1: Wow.
39:49
Speaker 3: I'm like, it was just so so real. I just couldn't.
39:53
Speaker 4: I was just shocked, you know, because you think about
39:55
Speaker 4: this day, you dream about that day, you just already
39:58
Speaker 4: fantasy about it.
40:00
Speaker 3: When it do come, you're just like, is it really happening?
40:02
Speaker 3: Is it a dream?
40:03
Speaker 4: I was a static and coming home of course, being
40:06
Speaker 4: reunited with my daughter and my family. You know.
40:09
Speaker 1: So Robert take me to after you get out, how
40:13
Speaker 1: does your friendship change? How do you continue staying in
40:16
Speaker 1: touch and do you have almost survivors guilt. Do you
40:21
Speaker 1: feel that pressure to get Jimmy out?
40:24
Speaker 4: The thing is Jimmy and I just Jimmy, but all
40:27
Speaker 4: the friends I made with in prison, they become family,
40:32
Speaker 4: you know. I didn't feel with Morris, but I feel
40:34
Speaker 4: like I need to do something to help the guys
40:36
Speaker 4: out any way I can. So basically through you know,
40:42
Speaker 4: I going to courts, supporting the other guys, shawing my support,
40:45
Speaker 4: my lawyer Jennifer Byji, who also know other lawyers. Eventually,
40:50
Speaker 4: you know, I know these other lawyers basically networking, and
40:55
Speaker 4: like I tried to help other guys when I can
40:57
Speaker 4: so far as like with Jimmy. Jimmy asked me, do
41:01
Speaker 4: I know a lawyer named Lauren. So at the time like, yeah,
41:05
Speaker 4: I know Lauren.
41:05
Speaker 3: She's my girl. She's cool with me. Were tight. He's like, man,
41:08
Speaker 3: I need you to talk to her. See she could
41:10
Speaker 3: take my case. I got you, I got you.
41:13
Speaker 4: So I end up talking to Lauren, and so Lauren, yeah,
41:16
Speaker 4: you know. And my friend Jimmie, he's a good guy.
41:19
Speaker 4: They did him wrong, and I wondered if you look
41:21
Speaker 4: at his case, and she's like, sure, send it to me.
41:25
Speaker 4: So I sent her in the paperwork and she reviewed
41:27
Speaker 4: it and she said, oh my gosh, she's this case.
41:29
Speaker 3: They did him wrong.
41:31
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so she started looking into it. She talked
41:35
Speaker 4: to her boss like yes, and she got into it too.
41:37
Speaker 4: So anyway back to Jimmy. Jimmy called me, asked me,
41:41
Speaker 4: you talked to Lauren. I said, yeah, I talked to
41:42
Speaker 4: Lauren Man. She says she got to She's like, wait
41:44
Speaker 4: a minute. I talked to Lauren and she said, you
41:46
Speaker 4: didn't talk to her.
41:47
Speaker 3: I said, what do you mean. So there's two Laurence. Yes,
41:51
Speaker 3: I didn't know.
41:51
Speaker 1: Yes, there is a Lauren at the Illinois Innocence Project,
41:55
Speaker 1: Lauren Keseberg. And then there's the Lauren that we are
41:59
Speaker 1: speaking of, who is Lauren Meerskoff Mueller. And she's with
42:03
Speaker 1: the Exoneration Project at the University of Chicago Law School,
42:09
Speaker 1: and she joined on Jimmy's team filing a clemency petition,
42:16
Speaker 1: and from.
42:16
Speaker 3: There he basically ended again in the Dream Team.
42:18
Speaker 1: Lauren gets involved in twenty twenty and in May of
42:21
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, Governor Pritzker commutes your sentence Jimmy to
42:27
Speaker 1: parole eligible, and then December fourteenth, twenty twenty three, the
42:33
Speaker 1: Cook County States Attorney's Office agreed that the charges against you, Jemmy,
42:38
Speaker 1: and your cousin David should be vacated, and the charges
42:43
Speaker 1: were dismissed. Robert, what was your feeling leading up to
42:47
Speaker 1: that date?
42:49
Speaker 4: So the day before I find out that he was
42:52
Speaker 4: coming home, I was just like ecstatic, this is finding's
42:58
Speaker 4: going to happen. After forty two years, finally Jimmy going
43:00
Speaker 4: to have his day. He helped so many other people
43:03
Speaker 4: come home, and now he's coming home.
43:06
Speaker 3: And I was in tears. I did lie.
43:07
Speaker 4: I was just so happy for him, just running up
43:10
Speaker 4: and down my apartment like, yes, this is happening.
43:13
Speaker 1: So by the time Jimmy, you and David got out,
43:18
Speaker 1: you had spent forty two years.
43:22
Speaker 2: Well, no, I spent forty two years, two months, and
43:25
Speaker 2: two days.
43:27
Speaker 1: That's the longest wrong incarceration in Illinois history. If I'm
43:32
Speaker 1: not mistaken, No, you're right.
43:33
Speaker 2: That is the National Registry based Michigan officially said we
43:38
Speaker 2: were the longest serving axuneries in Illinois state history. It's
43:42
Speaker 2: not a badge of honor, it's a title I would
43:45
Speaker 2: gladly relinquish. I would not wish that on anybody, but Unfortunately,
43:50
Speaker 2: that's what it is.
43:52
Speaker 4: And this is the club we're in, you know, Unfortunately,
43:55
Speaker 4: this is a club that nobody want to be in,
43:57
Speaker 4: but we are.
43:58
Speaker 3: You know.
43:59
Speaker 1: Now, I've seen the video of when you got out, Jimmy,
44:03
Speaker 1: but tell me the moment you remember catching one another's
44:06
Speaker 1: eye when you walked out.
44:08
Speaker 2: Okay, I get out from the gatehouse, which is the
44:12
Speaker 2: first entry point when you're going into Stateville Prison. So
44:15
Speaker 2: now I'm exiting it. I changed my clothes and I
44:18
Speaker 2: jump in a vehicle and one of the officers say,
44:21
Speaker 2: see that those lights down there at the end of
44:23
Speaker 2: this little road. I said, yeah, he said, that's all
44:25
Speaker 2: for you. He said, the press is down there to
44:27
Speaker 2: talk to you. So we drive down there and I
44:29
Speaker 2: get out the car and I see Robert. I see
44:32
Speaker 2: Robert dressed and a camouflage outfit jacket and pants, and
44:37
Speaker 2: I see him with his glasses and he got a
44:39
Speaker 2: grin from ear to ear, and so yeah, I mean
44:43
Speaker 2: the first ones I hug, naturally is one of my
44:46
Speaker 2: other sisters. And then after that, I think Robert was
44:49
Speaker 2: the second one that came. He hugged me, and they're like, man,
44:51
Speaker 2: you know, we just hugged it. Was an emotional moment.
44:55
Speaker 4: Yeah we did it, you know, and food circle, and
44:58
Speaker 4: I was so happy for him. This squeeze, I'm so tight,
45:01
Speaker 4: and now we're home.
45:03
Speaker 2: You know, it was very surreal to be on the
45:06
Speaker 2: other side of the wall with somebody that you had
45:09
Speaker 2: forged a bond of relationship with and to see that
45:12
Speaker 2: our past life's journey had crossed and now it was
45:16
Speaker 2: once again coming to cross, but in a good way
45:19
Speaker 2: where you know, I was now a free person, free man.
45:24
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys share such a strong bond, and
45:27
Speaker 1: you have so much in common and have well over
45:31
Speaker 1: a combined sixty years spent in prison for crimes you
45:37
Speaker 1: did not commit. What does it mean to have one
45:40
Speaker 1: another in your lives in these big transitions.
45:46
Speaker 2: Well, to me, I could tell you it means a lot. Because,
45:49
Speaker 2: of course, he was released years before me. He was
45:53
Speaker 2: released in twenty seventeen, and here I am. I'm released
45:57
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, so there's a you know, that gap.
46:00
Speaker 2: But uh, to know that he was able to transition
46:03
Speaker 2: into quote unquote uh the real world before me, he
46:08
Speaker 2: already learned how to navigate it, and so he was
46:11
Speaker 2: very helpful in telling me the things I need to do,
46:13
Speaker 2: for example, going to get my state of Illinois, I
46:16
Speaker 2: d getting me used to going to drive a car again.
46:20
Speaker 3: A little bit with the phone too, But.
46:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, he helped me and Daddy and I thank him.
46:25
Speaker 2: I thank God to have him there to be able
46:27
Speaker 2: to tell me, you know, some of these things and
46:29
Speaker 2: how to navigate them myself.
46:32
Speaker 4: The thing is, though, I feel like, you know, he
46:33
Speaker 4: was able to help me, but then when I was incarcerated,
46:37
Speaker 4: now not able to pay it for and help him
46:39
Speaker 4: out regard to how smart it is. It just feels
46:42
Speaker 4: so good to help him in any way I can.
46:44
Speaker 4: And he's my brother. I'll do anything for him. At
46:47
Speaker 4: the end of the day.
46:48
Speaker 3: That's my brother, and thank you for having me.
46:50
Speaker 2: Thank you. That's my little that's my little son. Now
46:54
Speaker 2: that's my brother.
46:57
Speaker 1: While he was incarcerated, Jimmy Soto earned a Bachelors of
47:00
Speaker 1: Science and Sociology from the Northwestern Prison Education Program. He
47:05
Speaker 1: graduated magna cum Laudie and is now studying for his
47:09
Speaker 1: LSAT to go to law school. I know he is
47:12
Speaker 1: absolutely going to ace that test. He is also part
47:14
Speaker 1: of Parole Illinois, an organization fighting to bring back parole
47:18
Speaker 1: to a state that has effectively had no parole program
47:22
Speaker 1: since nineteen seventy eight. To support James in his continuing
47:26
Speaker 1: fight for justice and in his goal for earning a
47:29
Speaker 1: law degree, you can donate to his gofund me, which
47:32
Speaker 1: is linked at the end in the episode description. Thank
47:44
Speaker 1: you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.
47:48
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
47:51
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help.
47:54
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler,
47:58
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea,
48:02
Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited
48:07
Speaker 1: and hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer
48:10
Speaker 1: is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah Bial, research by
48:14
Speaker 1: Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti, with
48:19
Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by
48:23
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social
48:26
Speaker 1: media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.
48:30
Speaker 1: You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren
48:33
Speaker 1: Bright Pacheco Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for
48:36
Speaker 1: Good podcasts in association with signal Company Number one