Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 202 . Re-Release of Ep 169. Fundamental Footprints - Examining Hyles-Anderson College – A Legacy of Influence and Concern. Our Top listened Episode of 2025

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202 . Re-Release of Ep 169. Fundamental Footprints - Examining Hyles-Anderson College – A Legacy of Influence and Concern. Our Top listened Episode of 2025 · 4-Freedom Podcast

• 0:11
  I was 13 years old the first time I walked into a church that
• 0:14
  big 5000 people packed into an auditorium, scrambling for seats
• 0:20
  in the balcony at a youth conference in Hammond, IN.
• 0:23
  It was electric. A man in a suit and glasses
• 0:27
  brushed past me. I didn't think much of it till
• 0:30
  someone later told me that was Jack Piles himself.
• 0:34
  That night a skinny preacher in a burlap suit preached a message
• 0:39
  called America America. He showed a 3 minute abortion
• 0:44
  video that left no one dry eye and when he shouted somebody's
• 0:49
  got to stand up and say that's not right, I felt something pool
• 0:54
  at my heart. I walked the aisle and
• 0:56
  surrendered to preach along with hundreds of other teens.
• 1:00
  That skinny preacher in the burlap suit, his name was Jack
• 1:04
  Stop. Fast forward five years.
• 1:08
  I'm a freshman at Howe's Anderson College.
• 1:11
  Nothing could have prepared me for the Chicago winters.
• 1:14
  Wind chills, 20 below. Frostbite warnings. 5 months
• 1:19
  without seeing a blade of grass. But in the middle of all that
• 1:23
  ice and snow, I was asked to be a bus captain.
• 1:27
  Freshmen usually didn't get that kind of responsibility.
• 1:31
  My first weekend out visiting my new route, I got a call.
• 1:36
  Jack Hiles had died, but Jack Scott, the same man who preached
• 1:41
  the message that changed my life, was going to take the
• 1:44
  reins. Surely the future was bright.
• 1:49
  My future, however, wasn't. I found out that as a bus
• 1:54
  captain, I was financially responsible for the Christian
• 1:58
  School bills of the kids on my bus route.
• 2:01
  So semester after semester, my own tuition was siphoned away,
• 2:06
  and I fell further and further behind.
• 2:10
  Then came the TV incident. My roommate, one of five, had
• 2:16
  one. It was against the rules.
• 2:18
  It wasn't mine. I didn't watch it, but I didn't
• 2:21
  snitch either. And at that school, silence was
• 2:25
  guilt. I walked into that room.
• 2:28
  Sitting at the disciplinary table was a who's who of
• 2:33
  fundamentalism. Jack Scott, Ray Young, John
• 2:37
  Francis, Darryl Moore, Wendell Evans, Eddie Lapina, just to
• 2:43
  name a few. They told.
• 2:45
  They told me I'd be punished like I own the TV myself.
• 2:51
  That weekend I packed up what little I had left.
• 2:54
  I was done with the rules. I was done with the nepotism.
• 2:58
  I was done with the double standards.
• 3:01
  I never found out if I was expelled or not.
• 3:04
  I just left. Ten years later, my life had
• 3:09
  changed. I was married, graduated from
• 3:12
  college, back in the ministry, on staff at my home church, and
• 3:18
  one day my pastor called me in. Jack Scott, the man whose sermon
• 3:23
  once moved me to the altar. I'd taken a 16 year old across
• 3:28
  state lines for moral purposes, lost his family, lost his
• 3:33
  church, lost his freedom. And in that moment, I thought to
• 3:37
  myself, somebody should have told him that wasn't right.
• 4:16
  I found my freedom in you. I found a toy I can't lose.
• 4:25
  And thank God it's true. You wrapped your arms around me
• 4:30
  and heaven broke through. From the moment she found me, I
• 4:35
  found my freedom in it. Welcome to the Four Freedom
• 4:39
  podcast. This podcast exists to bring the
• 4:42
  freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
• 4:46
  everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James
• 4:49
  Seyfried and Brett Mark, Welcome back to the Four Freedom
• 4:56
  podcast. It is a great Lord's Day that we
• 4:59
  just had this last weekend with Resurrection Sunday.
• 5:03
  And every Sunday is Resurrection Sunday, but it's always more
• 5:06
  special when it is the Easter celebration, the festival of the
• 5:10
  Resurrection. And we are excited to be back
• 5:14
  with you, be back with you today recording.
• 5:17
  And we just finished up our woke series, which was a great time,
• 5:20
  great info, great feedback that we have from you guys and we
• 5:24
  appreciate that. And we're starting a new five
• 5:27
  part series leading up to our summer break.
• 5:31
  And we'll give you more information about that just in a
• 5:33
  little bit. But Brett, Resurrection Sunday
• 5:36
  just happened. How was that for you you guys
• 5:39
  and what what were some highlights from this weekend for
• 5:41
  y'all? Man, we had a massive, massive
• 5:44
  Sunday man. We had a lot of people in the
• 5:47
  property and we had still had some families out.
• 5:50
  If we'd had our normal families plus all the guests and people
• 5:54
  we had, we probably wouldn't be able to fit them all.
• 5:57
  We had a children. Wish I had had a children's
• 5:59
  church Sunday. Kids loved it.
• 6:01
  Egg hunt we had breakfast that morning.
• 6:04
  We had main service at 9:00 AM. It was a massive, massive
• 6:07
  success. I got visitor cards and it was a
• 6:11
  successful Sunday. Like I I heard about your
• 6:15
  sunrise service. I know you were you're preaching
• 6:17
  on how Pagan Easter is and preaching against the Easter
• 6:22
  Bunny and and things like that. I think that's noble to preach
• 6:25
  on. I applaud you for that.
• 6:27
  You. Know like I like I always say
• 6:29
  someone's got to do it. And if not me?
• 6:33
  Exactly, exactly. So.
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  But yeah, we had a great Sunday, great turn out.
• 6:40
  It couldn't have went any better and I'm just looking forward to
• 6:45
  next Sunday. Try to ride this way, baby.
• 6:49
  That's right. I love it.
• 6:50
  Yeah, ours. Ours was great as well.
• 6:52
  We did have a sunrise service at 6:30, several visitors there.
• 6:57
  Our thing, Brett, was our spring break fell the week before
• 7:00
  Easter this year. Normally it falls the week
• 7:02
  after. And so because of that, we had,
• 7:05
  man, probably 30 people, ten families that were out on
• 7:09
  vacation. And so that that was a big hit.
• 7:11
  But we had some visitors there, some visiting families, some
• 7:13
  visiting folks from the community, which was a good
• 7:16
  thing. And excited about what Lord's
• 7:19
  doing. We've got some some big things
• 7:21
  coming up with our graduation Sunday.
• 7:24
  That's always a big time for us. And just, you know, trying to
• 7:29
  reach the people that are around us and to get people plugged in
• 7:32
  and such a great thing. Brett, how was your, did y'all
• 7:37
  have a spring? You, you homeschool your kids.
• 7:39
  You're one of those weird people that homeschool.
• 7:41
  But do y'all don't do a spring break or anything or how's that
• 7:44
  work out for y'all? We, we do a spring break, We, we
• 7:46
  let the boys take off, you know, and not do their school work the
• 7:49
  week of. And I think our spring break was
• 7:52
  the week after the school's spring break.
• 7:57
  But just like you, we, we met, we had some low Sundays around
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  before and after spring break with families going out of town.
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  And that's fine. But you know, the kids got to
• 8:08
  got to have a week off of school work and you know, things were
• 8:13
  going good for them. They've got basketball and
• 8:15
  friends. And so they're, they're, they
• 8:18
  were just tickled pink. They got to take off.
• 8:21
  They vegged on video games the whole time.
• 8:24
  Oh yeah, Fortnite. And, you know, playing
• 8:27
  basketball and playing Fortnite, I mean, I wish I had it that
• 8:31
  easy when I was a kid. Right, right.
• 8:34
  Yeah. We, we took this last week off
• 8:36
  during spring break and we went to Georgia, Stone Mountain, GA
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  had a great time at the campground down there.
• 8:42
  We camped out for 3-4 nights. And then we drove over to
• 8:46
  Atlanta and went to a Braves game and had to hang out there
• 8:50
  with a little bit. Got to go to their new stadium.
• 8:52
  I've officially been to all three of their stadiums and so
• 8:56
  that was a great time there. And then we had our our Easter
• 8:59
  bash on Saturday and I had a great time with the kids.
• 9:02
  But yeah, it was, it was a good week, good weekend, good time to
• 9:05
  get away from some things and reconnect with the family and
• 9:09
  just had a great time. Let's see what we got coming up
• 9:13
  on the calendar. Don't forget, if you are going
• 9:17
  to be in Dallas, in and around Dallas for the National Southern
• 9:21
  Baptist Convention in in Dallas. We've this year hit us up.
• 9:28
  I think it's going to be June 8th through 11th.
• 9:31
  I think those are the dates, but hit us up.
• 9:34
  Me and James are going to be there.
• 9:35
  We're going to be hanging out with some guys think Marcus
• 9:38
  Merritt will be there around Luther Rice tent and booth and
• 9:44
  we want to meet you. We want to talk to you.
• 9:47
  We want to have conversations with you.
• 9:51
  We want to a meet up. So just let us know we'll be
• 9:54
  there and getting some of that free swag stuff we all get.
• 9:59
  And so, man, I come away from that convention with so many
• 10:03
  books. I've still got pens here in my
• 10:05
  office from the last convention. These paintbrush pens, they,
• 10:10
  they passed out, man, they, they're really bad.
• 10:12
  I don't like them, but I've got plenty of them.
• 10:15
  But I am looking forward to the convention this year and what
• 10:19
  else we got going on. Yeah, I'm super pumped about the
• 10:22
  convention, the time where our family gets to get away.
• 10:26
  It's sort of a vacation slash recharge in the ministry, Lots
• 10:30
  of great preaching. Get to see some family, not only
• 10:33
  friends, but also my actual family lives.
• 10:36
  I've got some, my sister lives in Dallas, about 45 minutes
• 10:39
  north of Dallas. So I'll be there the week before
• 10:41
  as well, hanging out with them. And so I'm, I'm pumped about it
• 10:44
  as well. Love the the books that we get,
• 10:47
  the resources that we get to help encourage us as pastors.
• 10:51
  What a great time that is. And then we are also our, our
• 10:55
  cigar line's out. This is a small way where you
• 10:57
  can help support our podcast and we are really close to rolling
• 11:03
  out our sweet cigar, our sweet. That should be the the time
• 11:09
  where we will hopefully next week is as our time where we
• 11:14
  we're sampling our sweet ones and then it'll roll out and all
• 11:19
  four of our cigars will be out and we've got some good things
• 11:22
  coming up in the future. So if you haven't went over to
• 11:24
  our cigar web page, 16-9 cigars back slash for freedom.
• 11:30
  The leaks also in so notes go over.
• 11:32
  Check it out the great small way where you can encourage us by
• 11:37
  supporting the show and getting on some great things.
• 11:40
  Father's Day is coming up, graduation time is coming up.
• 11:43
  Great gifts that you can give out for during that time.
• 11:47
  You may have someone that's about to give birth and go and
• 11:50
  have a celebratory cigar. That's a great way to do that
• 11:53
  and got some some wonderful things there.
• 11:56
  For you. And then, Brett, last thing,
• 11:59
  Israel's coming up. Are you excited about Israel,
• 12:03
  man? I'm very, I'm very excited
• 12:05
  about, I mean, for freedom in the Holy Land.
• 12:08
  And I would love nothing more than to have some of our
• 12:10
  listeners on the trip with us. I think that would be a great
• 12:14
  opportunity for us and them if we could go with some of our
• 12:18
  listeners to Israel. I've been thinking about those
• 12:21
  buffets. I've been trying to explain to
• 12:24
  people the massive buffets in these five star hotels that we
• 12:29
  stay at in Israel and, and things like in the in, in
• 12:34
  Tiberias, in the Sea Galilee. I mean, for breakfast buffet to
• 12:38
  have no pork, no bacon, no sausage, you still have plenty
• 12:42
  of options. And then I can't wait to wake up
• 12:46
  1 morning and and go out to the Sea of Galilee and watch the
• 12:49
  sunrise over the Sea of Galilee. Just imagine being Peter out on
• 12:54
  the boat fishing all night. And then man, it's just, it's an
• 12:59
  amazing, amazing thing. We're going to places this next
• 13:03
  trip, this coming up trip. That mean you haven't went on
• 13:06
  before? We haven't been to some of the
• 13:08
  places like the upper room. OK, it may not be the actual
• 13:13
  upper room, but think about this.
• 13:15
  I was watching a video on this the other day.
• 13:18
  The steps going up to the upper room, that's there now all the
• 13:23
  Roman steps. So these are the same steps that
• 13:26
  Jesus would have, would it would have walked on as he was walking
• 13:29
  from the upper room to the garden and man, just things like
• 13:34
  that out of the Church of the Flagellation.
• 13:36
  I want to go down. I want to see the stone.
• 13:40
  And so these are some things that I want to do.
• 13:43
  And so I can't wait for Israel. I'm excited about it.
• 13:47
  Reserve your spot now, pay the registration and let's go to the
• 13:53
  Holy Land. Yeah, I had some great
• 13:55
  conversations this last week. I, like I said a couple weeks
• 13:59
  ago, I got to share with my daughter's class just the garden
• 14:03
  experience leading to the crucifixion, the Via Del Rosa,
• 14:06
  being able to talk through those things with them.
• 14:09
  But then I had some conversations this week with
• 14:12
  some individuals from our church and our community that were
• 14:15
  excited and possibly wanting to go and just had some questions
• 14:18
  about it. Man, I was just energized
• 14:20
  talking about it, talking about where we were going to stay, the
• 14:23
  cost of it, how one guy told me, he said, man, I, I priced this
• 14:27
  trip out years ago and I, I couldn't get it for this cost.
• 14:30
  And so I, I was encouraged to hear that.
• 14:33
  And so wonderful time. If you're ever wanted to go,
• 14:37
  now's the time to go. There's boots on the ground.
• 14:39
  There's people that are there. Marcus Merritt just got back and
• 14:43
  said it was a great experience, a great time.
• 14:45
  And so we are looking forward to going and we hope you join us.
• 14:50
  All that information is on our social media pages on our
• 14:53
  website for freedompodcast.com. You can go over there and check
• 14:56
  that out and jump in on the trip with us.
• 15:01
  I know your heart will be blessed.
• 15:02
  I know we'll be blessed to have you with us.
• 15:04
  And I'll be a wonderful, wonderful time to experience
• 15:08
  Israel with the For Freedom podcast.
• 15:10
  And so we're excited about that. Brett.
• 15:13
  We are starting into a series of the it's going to be a small
• 15:17
  series of five week series. John started the podcast 169
• 15:23
  episodes ago and he started with the history of the Independent
• 15:27
  Fundamental Baptist movement and it really started with J Frank
• 15:30
  Norris. He was the founding father
• 15:32
  branching off from the Southern Baptist Convention a couple of
• 15:35
  times and starting a couple of different associations, which
• 15:40
  eventually evolved into the Independent Fundamental Baptist
• 15:43
  movement. And from there we, we, we talked
• 15:47
  through just a couple of people. But, but really what happened
• 15:50
  was we started talking about the King James only issue and the
• 15:53
  King James only movement. And we really never picked back
• 15:56
  up on the history and the founding of the independent
• 15:59
  Fundamental Baptist movement. And So what me and Brett have
• 16:01
  decided to do is we're going to jump in with really what
• 16:06
  happened after J Frank Norris, who were the people on stage?
• 16:09
  What happened and how did the movement begin to flourish?
• 16:13
  We're going to start today talking about how's Anderson
• 16:16
  College, the legacy and the influence of that college and
• 16:20
  Jack Howells and the concerns that we have with the
• 16:25
  organization. And over the next four weeks
• 16:28
  after this, we're going to talk to Bob Jones, Pensacola Crown,
• 16:32
  some of the legacies, Jay Frank, Rutman Roloff, Lee Robertson,
• 16:39
  some of those other Carl Hatch, Tom Malone, some of those other
• 16:41
  guys, and even Bob Jones senior there in Longview and Texas.
• 16:45
  And begin to talk through some of the influence that have began
• 16:48
  to happen because it started with J Frank Norris, but then it
• 16:51
  began to branch out. And so we're going to talk
• 16:54
  through that over the next little couple of weeks.
• 16:58
  We've got a pretty loaded topic, one that's going to ruffle a few
• 17:01
  feathers, but it's one that needs to be talked about.
• 17:05
  Absolutely. We're diving into the history,
• 17:07
  the influence and the controversy.
• 17:09
  It's around how's Anderson College school that's been at
• 17:13
  the center of the independent fundamental Baptist world for
• 17:16
  decades upon decades. I was talking to my mom just a
• 17:20
  couple of months ago, Brett, about how's Anderson and the
• 17:23
  influence that it had. I grew up in an independent
• 17:27
  Fundamental Baptist Church, but never actually heard the name
• 17:30
  Jack House until I was about 16 or 17 years old.
• 17:34
  And man, it was not that our our new pastor that come in when I
• 17:38
  was just a young child, six years old, seven years old.
• 17:42
  He, he wasn't really big in the name dropping and so he would
• 17:46
  just preach and love people. Now the pastor before him, Jack
• 17:50
  Howes actually had came and preached at our church and we
• 17:53
  preached around and said my mom and dad knew who he was, but
• 17:57
  just never was a big topic of conversation.
• 18:00
  And so Brett, why are we, why are we talking about this?
• 18:03
  What's what's the reason? Well, I'll tell you, we're not
• 18:06
  just doing this to stir the pot. We're not doing this just to
• 18:10
  throw stones. This is about transparency,
• 18:14
  helping people think critically, especially those looking at
• 18:18
  Christian education option options.
• 18:21
  Because look, I wasn't told when I went into this house,
• 18:25
  Anderson. No one told me what I was in
• 18:29
  for. Nobody told me the history.
• 18:32
  Nobody told me what was really going on.
• 18:34
  I went in it with with blinders on.
• 18:36
  Jack Kyles was my pastor's hero. And so we want to, all we want
• 18:42
  to do is get the information out there.
• 18:44
  We want people to know what they're getting into.
• 18:47
  Yeah, and I think by part of doing that, we we want people to
• 18:51
  think. We want people to think
• 18:52
  critically, use the brain that God's given them.
• 18:54
  But but in doing that, we must start at the beginning.
• 18:58
  So how's Anderson College? HAC, as people like to word it,
• 19:03
  was founded in 1972 by Jack Howes himself, who was already
• 19:09
  becoming a major figure in the IFB world.
• 19:12
  At the time he was traveling evangelist people were taking
• 19:15
  note of him. He took First Baptist Church of
• 19:18
  Hammond, which was a Southern Baptist church, and had left the
• 19:22
  convention and became part of the independent movement that
• 19:26
  was going on that J Frank Norris had began.
• 19:29
  And now he is making this national spotlight in the lot of
• 19:32
  the same way that J Frank Norris was doing it.
• 19:36
  But now he started college. So now he's got preacher boys,
• 19:39
  he's got young men, he's got families moving to the area to
• 19:44
  begin coming to this college that he started.
• 19:48
  Now, James Little factoid, did you know that House Anderson
• 19:52
  used to be a monastery? I did not.
• 19:55
  Yes, it was a monastery. There are tunnels underneath
• 20:00
  from that the nuns used to use. There's a tunnel from one of the
• 20:05
  girls dorms to the island in the middle of the lake, so these are
• 20:11
  things that people need to know about it.
• 20:14
  But yeah, it was a monastery at one point.
• 20:17
  Are those tunnels operational? No, and there's actually some
• 20:22
  some some old stories about things that were found in the
• 20:27
  tunnels. And I don't know if I could
• 20:29
  repeat that the stories on here, but but it was a quite the
• 20:35
  conspiracy theories going on with the tunnels were used for.
• 20:40
  But that the name House Anderson actually comes from Russell
• 20:45
  Anderson. This was a businessman.
• 20:47
  He was a devout supporter who financially backed the school.
• 20:52
  Anderson poured a ton of money into this dream school that
• 20:56
  Hiles wanted, a place to train pastors, missionaries and
• 20:59
  Christian workers who would go out and, quote UN quote, change
• 21:03
  the world, but under a very specific, strict ideology.
• 21:08
  And Russell Anderson would come to the school, we'd hear him
• 21:13
  preach from time to time. He'd come and speak.
• 21:16
  He's a nice man. I've had conversations with him
• 21:19
  in passing. And so I've met Russell Anderson
• 21:22
  a handful of times. Yeah, You know, the the college
• 21:26
  itself was built really in essence, and I know you've
• 21:29
  mentioned this, but Jack Howes built it in essence to serve the
• 21:34
  Birmingham ministry of the church.
• 21:37
  You know, he used to say in his tapes, I'll never take a college
• 21:39
  to build a church, but that's what he did.
• 21:41
  He used the college to build the ministry of the First Baptist
• 21:44
  Church of Hammond and where he pastored and and served for many
• 21:48
  years. And under House Anderson, under
• 21:51
  Jack House's leadership, the church claimed attendance of 10s
• 21:55
  of thousands and had the largest Sunday school in the world at a
• 21:59
  time and the largest bus ministry in the world.
• 22:02
  And I mean, to say that this was massive within an
• 22:07
  understatement. This was a huge undertaking of
• 22:10
  mega churches before mega churches were big.
• 22:12
  You know, we've got some mega churches going on in the world
• 22:15
  right now. But but this was a undertaking
• 22:17
  and the grand scale of, I mean, overcoming complete city blocks
• 22:22
  to build churches on. And he believed that the key to
• 22:25
  continuing that momentum was through training.
• 22:28
  What he what we we fondly attribute to what we call soul
• 22:34
  winners who followed the house method of reaching the loss by
• 22:38
  winning the loss through door to door evangelism and bus ministry
• 22:41
  of Soul winning. Right.
• 22:43
  And let me remind you what the exact quote was that House used
• 22:48
  to say. He used to say this.
• 22:50
  I will. I will never use my ministry to
• 22:55
  build my people. Wait a minute.
• 22:56
  No, I will never use my people to build my ministry.
• 22:59
  But I will use my I have it typed here wrong.
• 23:06
  But he said I will use my ministry to build my people and
• 23:09
  not my people to build my ministry.
• 23:10
  That that's it. But you know that's a lie if I
• 23:13
  ever heard one because that was the total opposite of my
• 23:17
  experience. And listen to college, it was a
• 23:21
  farming system for the ministries of the church.
• 23:24
  You're supposed to be there. You're supposed to be getting an
• 23:27
  education, but the education was secondary to the ministries of
• 23:34
  the church. And you didn't have time to work
• 23:36
  on your classes and your schoolwork and with work and
• 23:39
  things like that. And so, but yeah, this method
• 23:42
  that you were talking about, it's a very narrow method, heavy
• 23:47
  focus on soul in and door to door evangelism, separation from
• 23:52
  the world and really separation from other Christians too.
• 23:57
  We were the only ones that had the truth.
• 24:00
  We're the only ones going to heaven.
• 24:02
  We're the only ones are going to be the bride of Christ.
• 24:05
  And you had to fit this, this, this Jack Hiles mode, even to
• 24:10
  the point where he would preach that Jesus fit the Jack Kyle
• 24:14
  mode, that Jesus had a tapered haircut and Jesus was clean
• 24:19
  shaven and the beard that was plucked out of his face was the
• 24:23
  5:00 shadow because he usually shaved.
• 24:26
  And so getting up preaching that Jesus fit the Jack Kyle's mode
• 24:30
  and that would just manipulate everybody to want to look like
• 24:33
  him. That's.
• 24:34
  Right. Yeah.
• 24:35
  You know, I remember thinking as I was growing up that the
• 24:40
  independent fundamental Baptist movement was this massive
• 24:43
  movement of, of it. It was a big movement, I'm not
• 24:46
  going to lie. But when I left now even went to
• 24:49
  conferences and people asked, you know, it's hitting a round
• 24:52
  table and they'd say, Hey, you know who, where, where'd you
• 24:54
  grow up at? And I'd sort of be like, oh,
• 24:57
  independent Baptist Church. And you could see everyone knew
• 25:00
  what it was and their eyes were like, Oh, well, that's one of
• 25:02
  those guys. But man, there was so many that
• 25:07
  once we realized that the pool was not as big as it was and
• 25:11
  there were bigger, better things out there.
• 25:13
  And, and the neglect, I would say that this is in our show
• 25:16
  notes, the neglect I would say that that we had growing up was
• 25:20
  the Bible was, was first and foremost man, we love our Bible.
• 25:24
  And then that was held at the highest esteem, but the
• 25:27
  discipleship ship and the growing and owning our faith was
• 25:31
  not there. And I think that's the biggest
• 25:33
  struggle that we had You you spoke of the mold.
• 25:36
  The mold was was very strict, right?
• 25:38
  We we know this. The the dress codes were non
• 25:40
  negotiable. Men had to have short hair,
• 25:43
  could not touch the ears, could not go sideburns, couldn't go
• 25:47
  past the cut of the ear. I don't know if that's how Jack
• 25:49
  Howes and and theirs was. I know it champion could not go
• 25:52
  past the cut of the year, had to wear white shirts and ties all
• 25:56
  the time. Women had to wear skirts past
• 25:59
  the knees, no pants. And we're not even give getting
• 26:03
  into the rules of music, dating and movies, but you can name it
• 26:07
  of as as strict as you wanted. That's where it was at and there
• 26:10
  was some strict rules there. Exactly, and you talk, you know,
• 26:14
  I, I will say I will agree with you that they as far as even my
• 26:19
  experience, they love the Bible, but they weren't taught the
• 26:22
  Bible. Just looking back over all
• 26:26
  right, I'll tell you this. I pulled up a message maybe a
• 26:29
  couple months ago of my pastor preaching at our old home
• 26:35
  church. He's the pastor.
• 26:36
  He doesn't pass there anymore, but he was in town.
• 26:39
  They let him preach on Wednesday night and I listened to it for a
• 26:42
  few minutes and it was the same. Same preference driven pet peeve
• 26:48
  sermon he preached. I heard him preach for 20 years.
• 26:53
  Just the same thing. Reheated.
• 26:55
  No exegesis, no digging into Scripture, and then we would
• 27:00
  just starve for Scripture. And with that kind of attitude,
• 27:03
  you just didn't get it. OK.
• 27:05
  And and you mentioned the dress code.
• 27:08
  I didn't, I'm like you. I didn't have a problem with the
• 27:11
  dress code as far as what they required me to do because like
• 27:14
  you said so many times, that's what you sign up for, OK.
• 27:19
  I mean, I, I'm talking about while I was there and in it, I
• 27:22
  didn't have a problem with it. While I was there and in it, I
• 27:25
  didn't have a problem with the double standard of the music
• 27:28
  because like for instance, Southern Gospels against the
• 27:30
  rules. So no cathedrals, no Legacy 5,
• 27:34
  no Gaither Vocal Band, no, no inspirations.
• 27:37
  OK, but here's the thing, the dorm suits, they would
• 27:41
  confiscate the music and you go into their offices and they'd
• 27:45
  have these vast libraries of music in their office and they'd
• 27:49
  show this music off to people like it's trophies on a wall.
• 27:52
  Like they, they've got a 8 point buck on the wall and and they
• 27:57
  they listen to it in their office, but kept it away from
• 27:59
  us. I thought that was a double
• 28:01
  standard. And James, let me tell you who I
• 28:03
  really felt sorry for this college.
• 28:06
  I really felt sorry for the girls because I could leave the
• 28:09
  college anytime I wanted to. But the Gordon, the girls, man,
• 28:13
  they, they were stuck there. They couldn't leave the property
• 28:17
  unless there were three of them. One of them had to be an
• 28:20
  approved chaperone, which meant one of the group of three had to
• 28:23
  be a junior or a senior. I think in general, the
• 28:28
  students, they weren't treated like adults.
• 28:31
  We were treated like kids at camp and all these rules we had
• 28:35
  to follow. It was just legalism, packages,
• 28:38
  holiness. They were more concerned with
• 28:41
  outward conformity than inward transformation.
• 28:48
  Well, absolutely. And that's the that's the
• 28:50
  struggle with it because oftentimes we would hear preach
• 28:55
  right, get them saved and the the Spirit take care of the
• 28:57
  rest. He'll cut their hair, he'll cut
• 28:59
  their beard, He'll he'll make them dress right.
• 29:02
  It was this legalism and sanctification that we talk
• 29:05
  about all the time. But but we want to talk about
• 29:08
  some influential figures and the impact they've had as we talked
• 29:12
  through some of this part of House Anderson, what they did
• 29:15
  and, and part of the influential figures we're not going to even
• 29:18
  mention today. We're going to be mentioning
• 29:20
  over the next couple of weeks and the spread of what House
• 29:23
  Anderson has has done over the years.
• 29:26
  And so some big names that come out of House Anderson.
• 29:28
  The first and foremost would be Jack Scott as you mentioned the
• 29:32
  cold open, but it stands out. He was Jack House's son-in-law
• 29:35
  and eventually the successor to First Baptist Church of Hammond.
• 29:40
  Right. And I'll tell you a little
• 29:42
  story. My very first day at Howe's
• 29:44
  Anderson College, I just pulled up to the college to start my
• 29:48
  college career. I get out of the my truck in the
• 29:51
  parking lot, a hand slams down on my shoulder.
• 29:55
  I turned around and it's Jack Scott.
• 29:57
  And I'll never forget what he said to me.
• 29:59
  He said, hey, buddy, I need a bodyguard because I was such a
• 30:02
  big guy and man, I thought, man, I had just been blessed by a St.
• 30:08
  You know, I had the I had his, his holy anointing on me now
• 30:12
  because Jack Scott put his hand on my shoulder.
• 30:16
  Little did I know, little did I know, little did I know.
• 30:20
  But yeah, Scott had a a meteoric rise in that world until he
• 30:25
  fell. Of course, most of us know.
• 30:27
  And for those of you who don't, he was convicted in 2012 for
• 30:31
  taking a minor across state lines for immoral purposes.
• 30:36
  That scandal rocked the whole IFB movement.
• 30:40
  Yeah, I remember when that came out, I was in Idaho and we were
• 30:45
  leaving the independent fundamentalist movement at the
• 30:49
  time. And, and that came out and it
• 30:51
  just rocked my world because not only that happened, but two
• 30:55
  other sexual incidents happened where men were put in jail
• 31:00
  because of it, which, you know, wasn't the 1st and the last time
• 31:04
  that this happened at house, Anderson.
• 31:07
  There have been multiple accusations and, and we don't
• 31:09
  have the time to go through this on the podcast.
• 31:11
  There are other podcasts that do a much better job at uncovering
• 31:15
  abuse and sex and legalism that that has happened.
• 31:18
  And so we're not going to necessarily go through all of
• 31:20
  those, but there is a systemic issue that is coming out of
• 31:25
  House Anderson over the years from men that have had
• 31:31
  allegations and investigations into the culture of House
• 31:34
  Anderson College. The let us pray movement that
• 31:38
  came out the, the show that came out that that talked to and
• 31:41
  uncovered a lot of that and begin the the, the exposure of
• 31:47
  what's going on. Many claiming that the the
• 31:50
  system breeds cover ups, manipulation and the abuse of
• 31:54
  authority. And by looking into it and by
• 31:57
  doing the research, we definitely see that.
• 31:59
  We definitely see that the authoritarian side of it does
• 32:02
  breed this cover up and, and and man leading in a way that is
• 32:09
  hurtful to the cause of Christ. And I think there need to be
• 32:12
  accountability. That's why I think the elders
• 32:15
  and leadership are so vital in a church, because it holds us
• 32:18
  accountable for what we're doing.
• 32:21
  Exactly. And like you said, we're not
• 32:24
  here to necessarily get into that.
• 32:26
  There are other other, you know, voices, other podcasts, other
• 32:31
  shows that have got into that a lot deeper.
• 32:35
  I will mention, I will just say that I agree with you that the
• 32:39
  system breeds that kind of cover up.
• 32:42
  You've got a man at the top that that's worshipped like a mini
• 32:45
  guy. He's set up on this pedestal.
• 32:49
  He gets puffed up, full of pride.
• 32:51
  He thinks he can do no wrong. People follow him.
• 32:54
  They give him immense loyalty. There's this idea that you don't
• 32:58
  call the police, you don't involve the authorities, you
• 33:02
  just, oh, well, I'm going to send you to my buddy's church
• 33:05
  once stayed over, try not to mess up over there.
• 33:08
  And then the guy does the same thing over there.
• 33:11
  They did the church, he left. And so yeah, it's just the the
• 33:15
  culture breeds that type of abuse.
• 33:17
  But still, for years, people looked up to these leaders as
• 33:22
  spiritual giants. Countless churches across the
• 33:26
  country have pastors who were trained there and they carry
• 33:30
  that same approach to the ministry, whether it's church
• 33:33
  church growth through numbers, rigid legalism, or an an
• 33:38
  authoritarian style of, of leadership.
• 33:42
  You know, you're you're, you're taught that House Anderson to be
• 33:45
  a mini Jack Isles. And I should know, I was, I was
• 33:49
  made to read the fundamental man, his, his, his biography.
• 33:54
  We had to read it on tape to prove that we read it.
• 33:58
  We had to read it on the way to recorders ourselves.
• 34:01
  Reading it on tape, you know, and, and if you know anything
• 34:04
  about Jack Howes is not necessarily a good thing.
• 34:08
  You're taught how to manipulate people into basically running
• 34:11
  their lives for them. The man of God is the final
• 34:15
  authority. You're taught to preach on your
• 34:18
  pet peeves and preferences and not the Bible.
• 34:20
  I mean, I'll be honest with you, I left college having taking the
• 34:24
  preaching class with Jack Scott as a freshman and I left knowing
• 34:29
  nothing about preaching, interpretation, exegesis.
• 34:33
  I learned more for YouTube from YouTube years later than I ever
• 34:37
  did at Howl's Anderson. Yeah, and you know, even
• 34:40
  Speaking of of Jack Howls and the cover up and the things that
• 34:43
  were going there, you know, it's well documented from his own
• 34:46
  daughter that that there was a fair going on, that there was
• 34:50
  manipulation with the secretary and and just so much cover up
• 34:55
  that happened that that causes and breeds this type of
• 35:00
  leadership style that that we talked about and how they preach
• 35:04
  one thing and yet they're doing a different thing.
• 35:07
  There's so many others that we can talk about and we will be
• 35:09
  talking about soon, but others had different tones, but yet
• 35:14
  still shared the same IFBDNA. And that's sort of what we're
• 35:19
  going to be talking about over the next couple of weeks is the
• 35:21
  DNA that that breeds from this. So let's let's talk about the
• 35:25
  culture and concerns, Brett. OK, to to kick this off, I'm
• 35:29
  going to ask you a couple questions.
• 35:31
  This is digging into the heart of the issue.
• 35:34
  Why does this matter, James? What are the real concerns about
• 35:38
  choosing a college like How's Anderson?
• 35:41
  Yeah, I think the the first and foremost and Brett you're seeing
• 35:44
  this right now and you saw this over the last couple of years of
• 35:48
  your life is the educational quality.
• 35:50
  You just mentioned how we weren't taught how to how to
• 35:53
  expose the Scripture, how to preach scripture, how to lead
• 35:56
  people well and how's Anderson has never been accredited.
• 36:01
  And many of the credits that you get from them, they don't
• 36:04
  transfer anywhere else, which limits students severely if they
• 36:08
  ever want to pursue a grad school or even switch tracks.
• 36:12
  Maybe halfway through after two years and say, Hey, I want to go
• 36:15
  and and do this, but you don't want to take this education that
• 36:18
  I've got. I want to transfer it over to
• 36:20
  here. And the colleges are like, Nope,
• 36:22
  I'm not taking those credits. That's that's a worthless piece
• 36:25
  of paper in our mind. And so that's a huge thing.
• 36:28
  If you're going to have a college and you're someone's
• 36:31
  paying for your education, then your education needs to be at
• 36:34
  the quality of that education so that they can transfer to other
• 36:36
  universities. You know, you know, on the movie
• 36:41
  The waterboy Mama always said everything's a devil.
• 36:45
  Food laws, the devil. Well, in the IFB world,
• 36:49
  accreditation is the devil. That means the government gets
• 36:52
  to tell you what to speak and what to say and what not.
• 36:56
  It's just a bunch of malarkey, bunch of baloney.
• 37:00
  You know, I was so blessed to find Trinity.
• 37:02
  Of course, Trinity, I didn't know it at the time.
• 37:05
  I'll be honest with you, James, I didn't know it until I went
• 37:09
  down to Trinity to walk and graduate and get my accredited
• 37:13
  diploma. I didn't know that Trinity was
• 37:17
  Bob Gray from Florida's old church and school that has, you
• 37:22
  know, saw the light and come out of legalism and they're that
• 37:25
  they're doing pretty good down there.
• 37:27
  But I had no idea while I was attending Trinity online that
• 37:31
  that was where the school was. But I was so blessed to find
• 37:34
  them. I didn't have to start over from
• 37:36
  scratch. They accepted most of my
• 37:39
  credits. I just had to do the minimum 32
• 37:41
  credits to get my get my degree. But that's not the case for
• 37:47
  everybody. For instance, if you were like a
• 37:49
  teaching major, OK, you would just have to start over from
• 37:54
  scratch. They wouldn't take none of your
• 37:56
  credits. You'd have to go to school
• 37:58
  another four years all over again.
• 38:01
  You know, I almost went to Pensacola.
• 38:03
  Pensacola is accredited. But of course, they were a para
• 38:07
  church organization. So my man of God wouldn't have
• 38:10
  been happy about that. But but deeper than that, it's,
• 38:15
  it's, it's the culture. The environment is shaped by
• 38:19
  fear, guilt and performance. Your spirituality is measured by
• 38:23
  how many doors you knock on and how well you can form.
• 38:27
  I'll tell you a quick story. I remember our bus division
• 38:32
  going to my bus route in Chicago, which Kaminsky Park,
• 38:36
  where the White Sox play, was on my bus routes with the whole
• 38:39
  division came to my bus route and we stood outside and got a
• 38:43
  speaker for a big day. We wanted big numbers and we
• 38:47
  were preaching St. preaching and just getting up, preaching the
• 38:52
  Romans Rd. on a on a speaker and then counting everybody that
• 38:57
  passed by as someone that got say, I never forgot that.
• 39:01
  Just just counting the people as as as they as they walk by.
• 39:05
  And that's just the kind of culture it breeds.
• 39:07
  Yeah, you're exactly right with that.
• 39:09
  And, and you know, the other thing is you're not encouraged
• 39:12
  to ask questions. It's this blind faith that you
• 39:16
  have to have critical thinking that's seen as rebellion.
• 39:19
  I saw this at, at Champion where I went and, and I know you saw
• 39:22
  this at house, Anderson. It's, it's never look at the
• 39:25
  other side and never ask the question.
• 39:26
  Why? I love that Jesus when he's
• 39:30
  teaching the, there's constantly people that are coming to him
• 39:33
  and saying, Master, can can we ask you a question?
• 39:36
  Teacher, can we ask you a question?
• 39:38
  Jesus welcomes those questions. He he answers them with grace
• 39:41
  and truth and with love and compassion and with hard facts.
• 39:46
  But yet he allows questions to be asked.
• 39:49
  You know, as you, as we went through this Holy Week, I don't
• 39:52
  know if you read through the final discord with Jesus and his
• 39:55
  disciples, how many times his disciples would say, Jesus, we
• 39:58
  don't understand what you're saying.
• 40:00
  Thomas looks at him and says, how will we know the way?
• 40:02
  How will we know these things? And and Peter responds with
• 40:06
  questions and. And it just goes to show that
• 40:08
  questions breed growth and when we are in this area where we
• 40:15
  must be obedient to leadership as it's taught by obedience by
• 40:19
  God and not ask any questions, it breeds that that sense of of
• 40:24
  not growing in our faith questions breed growth and they
• 40:29
  are encouraged us to not ask those questions.
• 40:33
  Exactly. And when when you have that type
• 40:36
  of that type of attitude can't ask any questions, it's
• 40:40
  rebellious that that opens the door for abuse.
• 40:45
  OK, when leadership becomes becomes untouchable, you end up
• 40:50
  with unchecked power. And we've seen this play out not
• 40:54
  just at how's Anderson in First Baptist Church, but but
• 40:57
  ministries across this movement have been shaped by this.
• 41:02
  That's when you end up with with scandal.
• 41:07
  Yeah, absolutely, Brett. Well, you asked me a question.
• 41:09
  Let me ask you a question. Why do people still choose to go
• 41:12
  here? Why are people still loyal to
• 41:15
  this organization after the fall of Jack Scott, after the fall in
• 41:19
  the the uncovering of Jack Howes and David Howes and everything
• 41:23
  else, Why do you believe people are still going and choosing to
• 41:27
  go to this College in this organization?
• 41:30
  Wow, that's a great question. You know, I think that I think
• 41:34
  the people are born into it. You know, the churches and the
• 41:38
  pastors went there, the parents went there.
• 41:41
  You know, it's, it's what they know.
• 41:44
  And to be fair, some go because they're genuinely seeking to
• 41:48
  serve God and think that this is the best way to do it.
• 41:53
  And like I said about my pastor, my pastor Jack House was his, He
• 41:57
  was his hero. He didn't go.
• 41:59
  My pastor didn't go to House Anderson.
• 42:01
  My pastor actually graduated from Tennessee Temple under Lee
• 42:06
  Robertson, but Jack House is one of his heroes.
• 42:09
  And he went to pastor school one, one year and he was hooked
• 42:14
  on pastor school and Jack Kyles and the bus ministry and Jack
• 42:18
  Hiles model. And he, he came back from that.
• 42:21
  He came back from that first pastor school and he just
• 42:25
  changed everything about his ministry to Max Jack Hiles
• 42:28
  because he says, OK, if Jack Hiles is having this much
• 42:32
  success with this model, then I need to do this model too.
• 42:36
  So then he brought it back down to us and we were just, we were
• 42:40
  just born into it. Yeah.
• 42:43
  You know, we never want to question people's motives, but
• 42:46
  what we do want to do is call out the system that there
• 42:49
  elevates loyalty to a man over loyalty to Christ.
• 42:53
  And and that confuses legalism with holiness.
• 42:55
  And we want to be a people who are challenging the status quo,
• 43:00
  who are asking the hard questions and who are
• 43:02
  challenging people to think about what they're doing and why
• 43:05
  they're doing it. And I believe that is what calls
• 43:08
  out the system and and calls out what is going on.
• 43:12
  Exactly. And look, this isn't just about
• 43:14
  1 college. It's about being discerning when
• 43:18
  choosing any Christian School. Look at the theology, look at
• 43:22
  the fruit. Look at how they handle sin,
• 43:24
  accountability, truth, things like that.
• 43:28
  Look at how they handle the word of God, how they interpret it.
• 43:33
  Yeah. And you know, if you're
• 43:34
  listening and you've been part of this and you've come out of
• 43:37
  this environment, which a lot of our listeners have, this is what
• 43:40
  we want to say. There's grace, there's freedom,
• 43:43
  and you're not crazy for asking questions, you're not crazy for
• 43:47
  being the person that is trying to figure things out.
• 43:50
  We want you to ask questions. We want you to seek the Word of
• 43:53
  God. We want you to know that there's
• 43:55
  grace and there's healing that's out there for you.
• 43:58
  But it's just recognizing the system that we're in and how we
• 44:01
  can work forward through that. Right.
• 44:04
  And listen, if you're thinking about going into the ministry,
• 44:07
  know this. The Bible is enough.
• 44:10
  Jesus is enough. You don't need to be molded into
• 44:14
  somebody else's clone to be faithful.
• 44:16
  And that's really the whole the whole message and the whole
• 44:20
  thrust of of how's Anderson when I was there.
• 44:24
  It may be the same today, I don't know, but it was just to
• 44:28
  mold you into a mini Jack Hiles. And look, to be honest, God just
• 44:34
  wants you to be you. He created you specifically and
• 44:40
  on purpose. He, He molded you.
• 44:42
  He shaped you. He formed you to be the person
• 44:46
  you are. And you don't have to be Jack
• 44:47
  Piles in order to be successful in the ministry.
• 44:50
  You can be just who God made you to be.
• 44:53
  Yeah, Amen to that, Brett. That's great.
• 44:55
  You know, honestly, if we seek a college that equips us to think
• 44:58
  biblically, to live faithfully and to serve humbly, not one
• 45:04
  that tries to clone you into a man made image in the ministry,
• 45:08
  believe that's what God has for us and believe that's where we
• 45:11
  need to be at. When we begin to get to this
• 45:13
  point where we're looking at what we're at and what we've
• 45:15
  been through and where we're at and where we're going is asking
• 45:18
  us and asking ourselves, saying God, who?
• 45:20
  Where do you want me to be at? Who do you want me to be?
• 45:23
  And then allow God to work in our life.
• 45:28
  Exactly. And look, if you've been hurt by
• 45:31
  that world, whether leadership, manipulation, legalism, man,
• 45:36
  just know that we see you. You are not alone.
• 45:40
  We've been hurt by them too. And look, healing is possible.
• 45:45
  So many people we overcorrect, we throw the baby out with the
• 45:48
  bathwater. When you're hurt, you just want
• 45:51
  to get away from anything that reminds you of it.
• 45:54
  But just just remember, healing is possible.
• 45:59
  Yeah, Brett, we could probably spend another hour talking about
• 46:01
  this and deep diving in, but I think that's a good place to
• 46:04
  stop for today. And I think we gave a good solid
• 46:08
  foundation of the history of how's Anderson, how it started
• 46:11
  that the people that that bread through this.
• 46:14
  And sort of what we're going to wrap up today, next week, we're
• 46:18
  going to look at one of the, as you mentioned, your pastor,
• 46:23
  another one of these pastors that has been an offshoot of
• 46:26
  Jack Howes, who went up to posture school and came back and
• 46:31
  began changing and modeling his church and eventually his
• 46:35
  college into the way of Howes, Anderson.
• 46:39
  And then we're going to be looking through some other big
• 46:41
  people and some other big areas in the independent fundamental
• 46:43
  Baptist movement over these next little bit.
• 46:47
  You know, this is this is where we can begin to help each other
• 46:50
  and reach out to those that are around us.
• 46:53
  Exactly. And listen, if this has helped
• 46:55
  you or if you've got a story to share, send us a message, drop
• 47:00
  us a line. We want to hear your story.
• 47:03
  We'd love to hear from you. So if you've got a story to
• 47:08
  share, please, please let us know.
• 47:11
  Yeah, thanks for listening. And as always, until next time,
• 47:15
  to God be the glory. Great things he has done.
• 47:19
  Found my new name, Found that good grace, found that healing.
• 47:25
  And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning.
• 47:29
  It has no ending. I found that second chance.
• 47:31
  Found my best friend, Found my forgiveness, found my happiness.
• 47:33
  I've been singing ever since I found my freedom.
• 47:50
  Thanks for listening to the Four Freedom Podcast.
• 47:53
  If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking,
• 47:57
  subscribing, or sharing our podcast or whichever podcast
• 48:00
  platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for
• 48:04
  the Four Freedom Podcast.