Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Every Kid is a Math Kid: Debunking the myths around learning math

Transcript

Every Kid is a Math Kid: Debunking the myths around learning math · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

0:01
Speaker 1: This is parent data. I'm Emily Oster. When I was
0:05
Speaker 1: a kid in elementary school, I thought I was pretty
0:08
Speaker 1: good at math. My high point came in the fifth grade,
0:13
Speaker 1: when I had mister Celine, who did a bunch of
0:16
Speaker 1: things that really played to my strengths. There was a
0:19
Speaker 1: timed math test in which Matthew Milakowski and I traded
0:22
Speaker 1: off one two in multiplication tables. And the other day
0:27
Speaker 1: I came across in my parents' storage bin a worksheet
0:32
Speaker 1: in which I had used combinatorics to take the numbers one, two, three,
0:36
Speaker 1: and four and combine them to make all of the
0:39
Speaker 1: numbers up to one. You know, like one plus two,
0:41
Speaker 1: bliss three plus four, but summation of four is also ten.
0:45
Speaker 1: Multiply it by three to get thirty. The sheet was long.
0:50
Speaker 1: When I got to high school, I still thought of
0:53
Speaker 1: myself as a math kid, but by the end of
0:56
Speaker 1: high school I didn't. There came a point at which
1:00
Speaker 1: I decided I wasn't that good at math. I hit
1:04
Speaker 1: something that I found really hard, and I didn't have
1:08
Speaker 1: the mentorship, the advice, the stick touitiveness to push through that.
1:14
Speaker 1: And now, if you asked me, are you good at math?
1:17
Speaker 1: I would say, not really, and I realized how that sounds.
1:21
Speaker 1: I have a PhD in economics, I do data for
1:24
Speaker 1: a living, but I don't think of myself as someone
1:28
Speaker 1: who's very good at math. And I think that is
1:32
Speaker 1: a position widely shared by almost everyone. Whether it was
1:36
Speaker 1: the end of high school, sometime in college, sometime in
1:39
Speaker 1: elementary school, I think most of us at some point
1:42
Speaker 1: decided I'm not really a math kid. We got to
1:46
Speaker 1: a point where mastery was hard, where the thing we
1:49
Speaker 1: were doing was so difficult that we kind of stopped.
1:57
Speaker 1: We don't really do that. In English, you learned to read,
2:00
Speaker 1: and you never decide, well, I'm not a reading kid.
2:02
Speaker 1: I'm not good at reading. We all read. We do
2:05
Speaker 1: often decide we're not a math kin, and my guest
2:08
Speaker 1: today would like to push back on that. Shaliny Sharma
2:12
Speaker 1: is the founder of zern An online math platform. She
2:16
Speaker 1: has a new book out called Mathmind, The Simple Path
2:20
Speaker 1: to Loving Math, and her core claim in this book
2:24
Speaker 1: is that every kid is a mathkid, and in order
2:27
Speaker 1: to do math education better, in order to serve our
2:31
Speaker 1: kids better, we need to have that core belief about
2:34
Speaker 1: our kids and probably also about ourselves. Every kid is
2:39
Speaker 1: a mathkin. In this conversation, we get into a little
2:44
Speaker 1: more detail about math learning. We talk about the question
2:47
Speaker 1: of memorization versus deeper learning. We talk about creativity and
2:50
Speaker 1: problem solving. We get into the question of why our
2:54
Speaker 1: kids are doing something called the new math and why
2:57
Speaker 1: it terrifies us and looks ridiculous and ever less still
3:00
Speaker 1: might be a good idea. And we talk about how
3:03
Speaker 1: to get kids excited about the tools of math and
3:07
Speaker 1: how they can unlock the secrets of the universe and
3:10
Speaker 1: be really, really fun. After the break, Shalony Sharma, Shaleiny Sharma,
3:31
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining.
3:32
Speaker 2: Me, Hi Emily, so nice to join you, so excited
3:36
Speaker 2: to be here.
3:36
Speaker 1: So I'd love to start by having you just tell
3:39
Speaker 1: people who you are and what you do.
3:42
Speaker 2: Thank you.
3:43
Speaker 1: So.
3:43
Speaker 2: My name is Shaliny Sharma, and I am the CEO
3:47
Speaker 2: and co founder of Zern, which is a nonprofit math
3:50
Speaker 2: learning platform used by one and four elementary school students
3:53
Speaker 2: and a million middle school kids. And I recently wrote
3:58
Speaker 2: a book which I'm so excited to talk talk about.
4:00
Speaker 2: And I hope the idea that your listeners consider, especially
4:04
Speaker 2: as parents, is that their kids can succeed in math
4:07
Speaker 2: and can love math.
4:09
Speaker 1: You love math, You love math teaching as much as
4:13
Speaker 1: anyone I've ever encountered. And we met during the pandemic,
4:16
Speaker 1: and there are few people in life that one meets
4:20
Speaker 1: who are so deeply passionate about math and or about
4:25
Speaker 1: anything that they do. So it's really a delight to
4:27
Speaker 1: read the book which is all about math and math kids.
4:30
Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about your ideas, but can
4:34
Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit more about how you
4:36
Speaker 1: got Why do you like math so much? A lot
4:39
Speaker 1: of people don't like math? What's the deal?
4:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I can say what I love about math
4:47
Speaker 2: teaching is a little different than what I personally love
4:49
Speaker 2: about math. But there is an expression on a child's
4:54
Speaker 2: face when it all clicks, and you can see their
4:58
Speaker 2: face actually light up, their eyes will light up, their
5:00
Speaker 2: eyebrows will arch there, they'll have a deep smile. And
5:05
Speaker 2: when I see that, I feel like just incredible joy
5:10
Speaker 2: in my heart. So I love seeing when everything clicks
5:13
Speaker 2: for kids. And unfortunately we don't always share that version
5:19
Speaker 2: of math with kids. We share this like sort of
5:21
Speaker 2: silly math with where you memorize your way through it
5:24
Speaker 2: and forget it. But when we show kids that understanding.
5:29
Speaker 2: To me, they are learning the secrets of the universe,
5:33
Speaker 2: They're learning how the world actually works, and that joy
5:36
Speaker 2: in their heart puts so much joy in my heart.
5:39
Speaker 1: Did you start as a teacher?
5:41
Speaker 2: No?
5:42
Speaker 1: Really? No?
5:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I am. I'm the arms and legs of ZERN.
5:47
Speaker 2: My co founders are the fabulous, amazing math teachers who
5:51
Speaker 2: did the hard work of showing what's possible by working
5:55
Speaker 2: in schools where students typically don't succeed in math, low incomes,
6:00
Speaker 2: schools that serve a lot of black and brown students,
6:03
Speaker 2: and most of my co founders got to results where
6:07
Speaker 2: they led the state. Their classrooms were just showing what
6:10
Speaker 2: was possible. And when the idea of Zern came about,
6:13
Speaker 2: which was their idea. The idea that they brought forward
6:16
Speaker 2: is what if we put the best math teaching and
6:19
Speaker 2: learning up online for free for everyone, could we change
6:23
Speaker 2: the world. And my background I had worked at Bating
6:26
Speaker 2: Company and had done a lot of tech and digital transformation,
6:29
Speaker 2: and I thought I could be useful to you. That's
6:33
Speaker 2: a great idea. I could help with that. And it's
6:35
Speaker 2: actually in working with them that I've fallen in love
6:38
Speaker 2: with teaching and teaching and learning, But my main contribution
6:43
Speaker 2: is still actually the arms and legs of the digital
6:45
Speaker 2: transformation of CERN.
6:47
Speaker 1: Can you say just a bit more about what zeren
6:51
Speaker 1: is and how kids are using it.
6:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, So zern is a math learning platform the kids
6:57
Speaker 2: use teachers administrators across the country for a bunch of
7:02
Speaker 2: different purposes, but the primary purpose is to help kids
7:07
Speaker 2: every day feel like they understand and get to practice
7:12
Speaker 2: enough math. The way I would describe it is a
7:16
Speaker 2: there's a very famous math researcher who describes our problems
7:20
Speaker 2: in America of middle school math, which is that everyday
7:23
Speaker 2: kids are ten to twenty minutes behind where they need
7:27
Speaker 2: to be. And if you accumulate that ten to twenty
7:31
Speaker 2: minutes behind halfway through let's say seventh grade, you have
7:35
Speaker 2: no idea what is happening. Your confidence is shot. You
7:39
Speaker 2: hate math. It doesn't make sense. And so Zern provides
7:43
Speaker 2: that compliment, that support to teachers and to families of
7:47
Speaker 2: that tend to twenty minutes every day where it's practice,
7:52
Speaker 2: but it's also learning and understanding.
7:55
Speaker 1: You know.
7:55
Speaker 2: One of the issues with just going about doing mathematics
7:59
Speaker 2: and practice is if you don't understand anything, what would
8:04
Speaker 2: be the point of practicing. You know, you need to
8:07
Speaker 2: understand and practice, and that's really important. And what we
8:11
Speaker 2: offer insert.
8:14
Speaker 1: This. So your new book is called Mathmind, The Simple
8:16
Speaker 1: Path to Loving Math. And I would say the pitch
8:19
Speaker 1: of the book is is some version of we're not
8:21
Speaker 1: doing it right and there's a better way, and I
8:24
Speaker 1: want to talk about what that better way is. And
8:26
Speaker 1: I actually want to be super concrete. So maybe we
8:31
Speaker 1: can start with a particular thing that kids learn, like multiplication.
8:36
Speaker 1: How are we teaching multiplication wrong? And how should we
8:39
Speaker 1: do it better?
8:40
Speaker 2: Yep, Okay, let's do multiplication. The first thing I would
8:43
Speaker 2: say is memorizing is really important. I'm not in the
8:47
Speaker 2: camp of we shouldn't memorize facts. That's that's vital. But
8:53
Speaker 2: imagine if you took our reading test and the reading
8:56
Speaker 2: test was right before the test, you memorized two hundred
8:59
Speaker 2: WORDSDS and then you took the reading test the next
9:03
Speaker 2: day and you read the passage, but two weeks later
9:08
Speaker 2: you couldn't read those words anymore. That's super weird, right,
9:12
Speaker 2: You would be illiterate through the course of even if
9:15
Speaker 2: you got an A on that reading test. It's a metaphor,
9:18
Speaker 2: but it's intentionally, very intentionally provided, which is in math,
9:22
Speaker 2: we prize memorization over understanding, and we should just do both.
9:28
Speaker 2: You know, if you get into these silly math wars,
9:30
Speaker 2: people are like, well should you memorize or should you understand?
9:33
Speaker 2: And it's like, well, just how about both? How much
9:35
Speaker 2: is both? So let's take that with multiplication. This is
9:39
Speaker 2: one of my favorite problems. Tell me the proof to
9:42
Speaker 2: why end time zero equals zero? You know, when I
9:46
Speaker 2: ask most folks the answer to that question, they don't
9:48
Speaker 2: know the answer. The okay, like, prove it, prove it
9:53
Speaker 2: to me.
9:53
Speaker 1: I feel like in my family when we go on
9:55
Speaker 1: hikes sometimes if there's a bridge, my husband stands on
9:58
Speaker 1: the other side of the bridge and you can only
10:00
Speaker 1: cross if you've answered a math fact. And the kids'
10:02
Speaker 1: math facts are always like student to what they're doing,
10:04
Speaker 1: and mine are always just like problems that he thinks
10:07
Speaker 1: that I should know because I have a PhD in economics,
10:09
Speaker 1: but I never know, and they're always this is like that.
10:11
Speaker 1: He's always like, what's the proof of the cancavity? And
10:14
Speaker 1: I'm like, can you just please like nine times seven?
10:16
Speaker 1: Like the last person had? Thank you? What's the proof
10:19
Speaker 1: of end times. So when you talk about multiplication, it's
10:24
Speaker 1: the n and the number of times, so it's it's
10:29
Speaker 1: it's n but it's zero times, so then there's zero
10:32
Speaker 1: of it. That's right, nice, I'm across the bridge. You
10:35
Speaker 1: can cross.
10:36
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it was only because you're a PhD and
10:38
Speaker 2: economic psychologie.
10:39
Speaker 1: That was Actually that's like day one, that's the first
10:41
Speaker 1: thing you do.
10:42
Speaker 2: But you know, we have no expectations as a country
10:46
Speaker 2: collectively that eight year olds can learn that proof, But
10:50
Speaker 2: on zoo they do. And you know, not only can
10:52
Speaker 2: they learn that proof, they love learning it. It makes
10:56
Speaker 2: them really happy, they feel empowered. They feel so like,
11:01
Speaker 2: how do we present the proof? All right, so you
11:04
Speaker 2: have three plates of cookies. On each plate, there are
11:08
Speaker 2: two cookies. How many cookies do we have all together?
11:12
Speaker 2: Three plates times two cookies is six. And so we
11:16
Speaker 2: present the meaning of multiplication as the first number is
11:20
Speaker 2: the number of groups and the second number is the
11:23
Speaker 2: number inside each group. So if you take that forward
11:26
Speaker 2: and you say, well, we have three plates and each
11:29
Speaker 2: plate has zero cookies, well, if you imagine that in
11:34
Speaker 2: your mind, three times zero is zero. Now if you
11:36
Speaker 2: have eight plates and they have zero cookies. Now, if
11:39
Speaker 2: you have one hundred plates and they have zero cookies,
11:41
Speaker 2: well then n time zero is always zero. And an
11:45
Speaker 2: eight year old can grasp this and enjoys grasping this.
11:49
Speaker 2: And again I'm not saying that we shouldn't memorize, but
11:53
Speaker 2: if math is viewed by children and by adults as
11:58
Speaker 2: memorizing facts, first of all, that's the empty calories of learning.
12:03
Speaker 2: But second of all, like there is no way to
12:05
Speaker 2: build on that, there's no way to build understanding. And
12:08
Speaker 2: really the parallel is memorize four hundred words, memorize one
12:12
Speaker 2: hundred more, and at the end you will be illiterate.
12:16
Speaker 1: The memorization of words is an interesting parallel because there's
12:19
Speaker 1: so much discussion about science of reading, which is all
12:22
Speaker 1: about this idea of building blocks of phonics being the
12:26
Speaker 1: building blocks to reading and memorization not working. And you know,
12:30
Speaker 1: I see it a very clear parallel to Okay, you
12:34
Speaker 1: understand that and reading, but why in math you still
12:36
Speaker 1: think we should be just memorizing these facts without context.
12:40
Speaker 1: So one of the things there are for a lot
12:43
Speaker 1: of parents, I think what is daunting about this is
12:47
Speaker 1: this idea of the new math. So give you an
12:50
Speaker 1: example where I myself have struggled with what is this,
12:56
Speaker 1: which is when you're adding together three digit numbers two
13:00
Speaker 1: digit numbers, and I when I was in school, we
13:04
Speaker 1: pretty quickly got to the stacking mechanism, the stacking and carrying.
13:08
Speaker 1: I'm like, an excellent stacking and carrying looks so good
13:11
Speaker 1: that I stack and carry in my head. So if
13:13
Speaker 1: you told me add these three digit numbers together, I
13:15
Speaker 1: would imagine them in my head stacked, and I would
13:18
Speaker 1: do the stacking and the carrying, and then I would
13:21
Speaker 1: give you. I would give you the number. The way
13:23
Speaker 1: my kids seem to have learned this, They eventually did
13:25
Speaker 1: get to some kind of stacking and carrying, but the
13:28
Speaker 1: first thing and the way that they default to is
13:30
Speaker 1: this like we're breaking it up into the pieces and
13:33
Speaker 1: we're adding the hut. Like there's a I'm not even
13:36
Speaker 1: sure I could really replicate it, but it definitely involves
13:38
Speaker 1: like breaking things down and combining them. Can you explain
13:43
Speaker 1: to me why that's a good idea instead of the stacking.
13:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think this is back to the unfortunate
13:53
Speaker 2: sort of either or way that we approach math. You know,
13:56
Speaker 2: the reading parallel would be can you read the word concept.
14:01
Speaker 2: Can you read the word procedure? Do you understand what
14:04
Speaker 2: it means? Right? Both? You need both. And so what
14:06
Speaker 2: I would say is algorithms, which is the stacking. They
14:10
Speaker 2: are beautiful, they always work. They're like magnificent, right, a
14:15
Speaker 2: great human invention. So you are welcome to keep stacking
14:19
Speaker 2: in your head.
14:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm forty four years old, so I think it's over.
14:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not the way we have. Yeah, it's not over, Emily.
14:26
Speaker 2: Anything is possible, but it's beautiful that you can stack
14:29
Speaker 2: in your head and you love it, and that's awesome.
14:31
Speaker 2: And there are lots of children. You know, there are
14:33
Speaker 2: eight billion people on earth, and so there are lots
14:35
Speaker 2: of children who are going to prefer that way as well.
14:38
Speaker 2: But everyone doesn't prefer that way. And so here's the
14:42
Speaker 2: part about math that we have to tell kids, and
14:46
Speaker 2: we have to tell adults, especially women, when we think
14:49
Speaker 2: about how leaky the STEM pipeline is that math is
14:53
Speaker 2: creative and there is only one right answer. So if
14:57
Speaker 2: we're going to add let's say thirty seven and thirteen,
15:02
Speaker 2: the answer can only be fifty.
15:04
Speaker 1: That's it.
15:05
Speaker 2: There's no other option. But Emily, you're welcome to stack
15:08
Speaker 2: in your head, but I'm going to say thirty plus
15:11
Speaker 2: ten plus seven plus three. That's just how I want
15:14
Speaker 2: to do it. And I know seven and three are
15:16
Speaker 2: automatically a ten, so I'm really just gonna add thirty
15:19
Speaker 2: plus ten plus ten. And so what that tells me
15:23
Speaker 2: is I get to do it my way, and you
15:25
Speaker 2: can do it your way. And what it allows for
15:29
Speaker 2: is creativity and problem solving and then the meta learning
15:32
Speaker 2: like why that really matters in real life, particularly if
15:36
Speaker 2: you think about your work and how creative your work
15:38
Speaker 2: has been. We need STEM workers and we need workers
15:42
Speaker 2: in general to think about problems creatively and think about
15:46
Speaker 2: many ways to solve them. And so when we teach
15:49
Speaker 2: mathematics in a way where children have many ways at
15:52
Speaker 2: the problem, there many ways are accepted. The answer is
15:56
Speaker 2: still fifty, there's no other option, but there's many ways
16:01
Speaker 2: at it. Now. I'm not saying that new math is
16:04
Speaker 2: always presented with that big picture lesson that it's about creativity,
16:09
Speaker 2: trying a different way, feeling empowered in mathematics, but it
16:13
Speaker 2: absolutely needs to be. And if you think about the
16:15
Speaker 2: children who feel most successful in mathematics and then are
16:19
Speaker 2: in a position to go on to do a STEM degree,
16:23
Speaker 2: they have that lesson in their own head.
16:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think this is this aspect of
16:29
Speaker 1: the way math is taught. I think is part of
16:32
Speaker 1: what makes it hard for people. For parents, is it
16:36
Speaker 1: almost feels like I learned one algorithm and now you're
16:40
Speaker 1: teaching my kids a different algorithm, and it's not presented
16:44
Speaker 1: like there are a lot of ways and we're going
16:46
Speaker 1: to do. I mean, I'm sure many in some cases
16:48
Speaker 1: it is, but for many kids it's not presented like
16:52
Speaker 1: this is a super interesting creative set of problems, like
16:54
Speaker 1: how can we get to fifty? We know it's fifty,
16:56
Speaker 1: What are the forty seven interesting ways to get to fifty?
16:59
Speaker 1: It's just like here, my algorithm was stacking, and your
17:02
Speaker 1: algorithm is this particular aspect of chunking, and you better
17:05
Speaker 1: show me the right chunks because that's what you expect.
17:08
Speaker 1: And so that almost feels to me like the point
17:12
Speaker 1: of your book. You can correct me if this is
17:14
Speaker 1: not right. Is this big picture creativity, the idea of
17:19
Speaker 1: many ways into the problem.
17:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the way I title that chapter rather
17:25
Speaker 2: than saying, you know, there are three algorithms, you should
17:28
Speaker 2: learn them all, which is silly and kind of missing
17:32
Speaker 2: the point is Instead, what I want people to remember
17:37
Speaker 2: and what I want kids to know, is that you
17:42
Speaker 2: are empowered to make tough problems easier. So you have
17:47
Speaker 2: the interest, skill, preference, working memory to stack the numbers.
17:52
Speaker 2: Others do not, and that's okay, but then they can
17:57
Speaker 2: make it easier for themselves and easier. You know, I
18:00
Speaker 2: say in the book, easier is in the eye of
18:02
Speaker 2: the beholder, And when children are taught that that part explicitly,
18:07
Speaker 2: so they're not taught to like sort of pair it
18:09
Speaker 2: back some new algorithm or some different way, but when
18:12
Speaker 2: they're taught explicitly easier is in the eye of the beholder.
18:16
Speaker 2: There's lots of cool ways we can solve this problem.
18:19
Speaker 2: That's the big picture lesson that allows for both success
18:23
Speaker 2: and enjoyment. In mathematics, you know, if math is that
18:28
Speaker 2: I kind of have no clue what's going on, but
18:31
Speaker 2: I'm exactly imitating what the teacher did on the board.
18:35
Speaker 2: You know, that's on a class. It's like where your
18:37
Speaker 2: curiosity is burning and being stoked. But instead if we
18:42
Speaker 2: present it as look, there's a bunch ways to solve
18:44
Speaker 2: this problem. What do you find interesting? Which way do
18:47
Speaker 2: you like to do it, and also the chance to
18:50
Speaker 2: share that with your peers. That's also very empowering, and
18:54
Speaker 2: so I agree with you that we don't always present
18:56
Speaker 2: it that way in math teaching and learning today.
19:00
Speaker 1: If you had a magic wand and you could fix
19:03
Speaker 1: some aspect of our current math education, what's the one
19:07
Speaker 1: thing that you would do?
19:09
Speaker 2: Can I have two things with my magic?
19:10
Speaker 1: I guess so, yes, it's magic, So I guess we'll
19:13
Speaker 1: be flexible.
19:15
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, if I only have one thing, I'll start
19:18
Speaker 2: with belief it is completely It would be scandalous, unacceptable
19:26
Speaker 2: child abuse to think that children walk into an elementary school,
19:31
Speaker 2: we sort out the reading kids and we're completely content
19:36
Speaker 2: with the rest leaving elementary school illiterate. I mean, it
19:40
Speaker 2: would be front page of the New York Times. You know,
19:42
Speaker 2: if we found the memo, it would be you know,
19:44
Speaker 2: there'd be a whistleblower. I mean, it would just be absurd.
19:48
Speaker 1: You know.
19:48
Speaker 2: The way I'd say it simply is that when children
19:50
Speaker 2: can't read at a population level, we get very angry
19:55
Speaker 2: at the adults. In contrast, the idea that kids could
20:00
Speaker 2: go to kindergarten through eighth grade and come out the
20:05
Speaker 2: vast majority of them failing any math test you give them,
20:08
Speaker 2: you know, including the NAPE or you know, these well
20:11
Speaker 2: regarded math tests. So thus they're enumerate is completely acceptable.
20:18
Speaker 2: And instead of kind of blaming the adults, where we
20:20
Speaker 2: sort of you know, we say, like, let's not be
20:23
Speaker 2: mean to the kids because they're not math kids. It's okay,
20:26
Speaker 2: Like they love ballet and soccer. You know, what does
20:31
Speaker 2: that have to How is that related to what we're
20:33
Speaker 2: talking about, you know? And so I think the first
20:36
Speaker 2: is just belief, and we just don't have it collectively.
20:39
Speaker 2: Parents don't believe yet enough in their kids. Teachers don't
20:43
Speaker 2: yet believe enough in their students, like we you know,
20:46
Speaker 2: governors don't believe enough in their in this cod like,
20:49
Speaker 2: we just don't have enough belief. So the first is
20:51
Speaker 2: just let's believe. If you give me a second one,
20:55
Speaker 2: I would say that it's what I talked about earlier,
20:58
Speaker 2: which is we have to pair understanding with memorizing. And
21:03
Speaker 2: the best way to understand really anything, but especially math,
21:08
Speaker 2: is simple pictures concrete contexts just make it make it
21:14
Speaker 2: feel real, not abstract and theoretical. So what's a negative number, Well,
21:20
Speaker 2: think about sea level is zero and then you dive
21:23
Speaker 2: into the ocean. That's a negative number. And then you
21:26
Speaker 2: climb a mountain, Well, that's a positive number. Okay, you
21:30
Speaker 2: know I'm not I'm not talking about things that are
21:32
Speaker 2: extremely elaborate, but bringing pictures real contexts. You know, as
21:39
Speaker 2: you get to like to your level of mathematics, Emily,
21:42
Speaker 2: you would start using graphs a lot to explain. So
21:46
Speaker 2: we just we just need pictures to be a part
21:48
Speaker 2: of mathematics. And right now, what happens is we have
21:52
Speaker 2: abstract symbols that are shorthand for pictures, and that shorthand
21:58
Speaker 2: for pictures we need, right, you can't like draw a
22:01
Speaker 2: picture at the SAT right, So if you're taking the SAT,
22:04
Speaker 2: you need to be doing more abstract mathematics. So I'm
22:09
Speaker 2: not against in high stakes context abstract mathematics, but you
22:13
Speaker 2: have to pair that with understanding, and the simplest path
22:16
Speaker 2: to understanding are pictures.
22:19
Speaker 1: So do you think we should be teaching kids algebra
22:22
Speaker 1: with pictures when they're like seven?
22:25
Speaker 2: I would love to teach so we can hide algebra
22:28
Speaker 2: and present it to children. You know, Let's say algebra
22:31
Speaker 2: is often taught in ninth grade or eighth grade, sometimes
22:36
Speaker 2: seventh sometimes tenth and it can be in a very
22:39
Speaker 2: abrupt change in the brain, right, kind of like this
22:42
Speaker 2: whole idea that we're presenting of solving for X. So
22:47
Speaker 2: we can smooth that out for kids and hide algebra
22:50
Speaker 2: all through elementary school and middle school by presenting it
22:53
Speaker 2: with pictures and make it engaging, make it fun. And
22:57
Speaker 2: so yes, we should be doing that.
23:00
Speaker 1: So when kids learn to read, there's this benefit for them.
23:05
Speaker 1: And I remember teaching my daughter to read and when
23:08
Speaker 1: she got frustrated, just being like, just wait because at
23:12
Speaker 1: the end of this I promise like, it's going to
23:14
Speaker 1: be so fun. And I was right about that. And
23:17
Speaker 1: now reading is recreational. What is the equivalent for math?
23:22
Speaker 1: How are we telling kids, like, at the end of this,
23:26
Speaker 1: what are you getting? It's not the Twilight series, you know,
23:29
Speaker 1: it's not the crowd of Thorn and Roses or whatever
23:31
Speaker 1: is like the thing you like to read? What am
23:35
Speaker 1: I getting?
23:36
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it depends what age kids are. I
23:40
Speaker 2: have thirteen year old twins. And there's a great article
23:43
Speaker 2: in Science about one of the ways to motivate adolescents
23:47
Speaker 2: is to remind them that the adult world is trying
23:49
Speaker 2: to rip them off and that you're on their side.
23:52
Speaker 2: So this is a This is a schema that I
23:55
Speaker 2: use at home to engage with my kids. But even
23:58
Speaker 2: when they were an elementary school, I would present to
24:02
Speaker 2: them the truth, which is that if you're numerate, you
24:06
Speaker 2: can navigate the world. Right. I remember, we'd go to
24:08
Speaker 2: the farmer's market. I give them each ten bucks and
24:10
Speaker 2: I'd say, go buy some fruits and vegetables. But by
24:12
Speaker 2: the way, you're a little kid, and people think you
24:16
Speaker 2: can't calculate the change, So calculate the change before you
24:20
Speaker 2: hand over the money to make sure you get the
24:22
Speaker 2: right amount of money back. The version of that that
24:26
Speaker 2: goes through the entirety of life of at the minimum,
24:29
Speaker 2: numerocy is how you navigate the world around you, and
24:33
Speaker 2: those who are numerate are going to take advantage of you.
24:37
Speaker 2: So that's one of the one of the benefits that
24:39
Speaker 2: I definitely bring home, which is like, don't be the fool.
24:44
Speaker 2: I think the other benefits that are that are in
24:46
Speaker 2: the realm of fun sit often in the space of science.
24:51
Speaker 2: So if you think of also economics, you know just
24:54
Speaker 2: all these fabulous applications of mathematics that are so interesting
24:59
Speaker 2: to the world around you. And I think that with reading.
25:04
Speaker 2: We think the Twilight Series is reading, but if reading
25:07
Speaker 2: is learning phonics, learning what words mean, being able to
25:11
Speaker 2: read with fluency, and then you get to read science fiction,
25:16
Speaker 2: you know. To me, I think that the parallel would
25:19
Speaker 2: be you can actually understand and Economics podcast and have
25:23
Speaker 2: a lot of fun reading it. You can actually read
25:26
Speaker 2: the New York Times coverage on inflation and actually understand it.
25:30
Speaker 2: So it's basically the access point to understand the world
25:32
Speaker 2: around you.
25:49
Speaker 1: More parent data, including advice for parents for how to
25:53
Speaker 1: get your kids pumped for math, the benefits of a
25:55
Speaker 1: family game night, and my own regrettable decision to pull
25:59
Speaker 1: myself out of the Mathew after the break. So you
26:23
Speaker 1: have some advice in the book for parents about how
26:28
Speaker 1: to engage their kids. What is that?
26:32
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I think I think the first thing that
26:35
Speaker 2: I would say to parents is believe in your own kid. Period.
26:41
Speaker 2: Just believe in your own kid. Have the expectations that
26:44
Speaker 2: your child can succeed in mathematics.
26:47
Speaker 1: You know.
26:47
Speaker 2: I had an interesting experience myself where one of my
26:50
Speaker 2: kids was really interested in piano and musical instruments, and
26:55
Speaker 2: at one point he was playing multiple musical instruments, and
26:58
Speaker 2: I had this definition of him in my own head
27:01
Speaker 2: where I was like, but he's not that musical, and
27:04
Speaker 2: yet he was there like pushing forward and you know,
27:06
Speaker 2: and I was like, you know, our family is not
27:08
Speaker 2: that musical. This crazy, this craziness going on in my head,
27:13
Speaker 2: and I just have this moment where I was like,
27:15
Speaker 2: I am terrible. I'm thinking these thoughts. I'm if I'm
27:18
Speaker 2: not saying directly you're not musical, I'm implying it. And
27:23
Speaker 2: so that version whatever's going on in your head, well,
27:26
Speaker 2: we're not. Our family's not math people. My kid's not
27:28
Speaker 2: you know, a genius for math. Just stop, stop the
27:32
Speaker 2: internal monologue and just believe in your kid. I think
27:35
Speaker 2: the second thing is just don't panic, like math is
27:39
Speaker 2: all around you. And the simplest thing I would say
27:41
Speaker 2: is play board games or card games. There is not
27:46
Speaker 2: a board game or a card game out there that
27:49
Speaker 2: doesn't have a dimension of mathematics. And they're very fun
27:54
Speaker 2: and they're already sitting there. You know, the kind of
27:56
Speaker 2: public health messaging of read to your kid for twenty
27:59
Speaker 2: minutes a night something they love, have board game night,
28:02
Speaker 2: playboard games and card games with your family all the time.
28:07
Speaker 2: And then the last thing I'd say is that utilize
28:11
Speaker 2: resources when your kid falls behind. You know the biggest
28:14
Speaker 2: difference between kids who feel so I don't know, Emily,
28:18
Speaker 2: if you've had this experience. I did through the course
28:20
Speaker 2: of high school. In college, I felt successful in mathematics,
28:23
Speaker 2: but in middle school I fell really far behind, and
28:27
Speaker 2: I just got super lucky. My teacher tried to help me,
28:31
Speaker 2: and my dad jumped in as my tutor, and I
28:34
Speaker 2: caught up. And one of the things we see in
28:38
Speaker 2: the Zerin data is that kids can catch up when
28:41
Speaker 2: they're behind. But I think one of the structures in
28:44
Speaker 2: our society is that we believe that when kids fall behind,
28:47
Speaker 2: they're revealing their math ability, so there's no point in
28:51
Speaker 2: catching them up. Well, that is absurd and nonsense. We
28:56
Speaker 2: know kids can catch up. We have a really cool
28:59
Speaker 2: fixed effect model analysis of six hundred thousand students that
29:03
Speaker 2: show that kids can catch up. So I'm telling you
29:06
Speaker 2: what a population level, kids can catch up, and the
29:08
Speaker 2: difference between the kids who catch up and the kids
29:10
Speaker 2: who don't is an adult intervenes and gives them the
29:14
Speaker 2: resources and support, and so as a parent, intervene and
29:19
Speaker 2: help your kid access those resources and support, and if
29:21
Speaker 2: you don't have them, ask your teacher for help. You're
29:25
Speaker 2: welcome to go to zern dot org. It's free. There
29:28
Speaker 2: are other wonderful free resources online, but don't give up,
29:32
Speaker 2: ask for help.
29:34
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I did not have this experience in middle school.
29:38
Speaker 1: I had this experience in high school. So I was
29:40
Speaker 1: very far ahead in math and at the end of
29:43
Speaker 1: so I had finished BC calculus by the end of
29:46
Speaker 1: my sophomore year in high school, and I thought that
29:48
Speaker 1: I was really great at math. And then I ended
29:51
Speaker 1: up in a class with two other students and my
29:56
Speaker 1: high school had made this like special class we were
29:58
Speaker 1: going to learn multivariable calculus. And one of those other students,
30:03
Speaker 1: David Spire, is actually a tenured math professor at the
30:06
Speaker 1: University of Michigan now, so he was like really really excellent.
30:12
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very hard to be a tenured math professor.
30:14
Speaker 1: He was really really excellent at math, Like and I
30:18
Speaker 1: was very good at math, but not anywhere near as
30:20
Speaker 1: good as David Spire, And I basically at that point decided,
30:25
Speaker 1: you know what, like calculus was like kind of the
30:28
Speaker 1: end for me. And I never really seriously thought about
30:32
Speaker 1: being good at math. Again, I took statistics. I end
30:35
Speaker 1: up mean it's not like it worked out fine. But
30:38
Speaker 1: now if you said, like, are you especially good at math?
30:41
Speaker 1: I would say you're not not particularly And it's not
30:44
Speaker 1: exactly and I think it's David Spier's fault. But I
30:46
Speaker 1: do feel at that point there would have been some
30:49
Speaker 1: value to somebody being like, hey, like you actually are
30:53
Speaker 1: quite good at math. Maybe you're not as good as
30:55
Speaker 1: David Spire, but you're really it's like, you're really quite good,
30:59
Speaker 1: which is just to say that. I think this value
31:02
Speaker 1: of realizing that this could happen to your kid at
31:05
Speaker 1: various points and the intervention could matter.
31:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think this comparison is really vital. Right,
31:13
Speaker 2: So you're an amazing writer, you're a New York Times
31:18
Speaker 2: bestselling author. Imagine if instead of David Spire, the person
31:23
Speaker 2: you were in class with had won multiple Pilitzer Prizes
31:26
Speaker 2: would go on to win multiple Pilitz Surprizes. You might think, well,
31:29
Speaker 2: maybe I shouldn't write because that's what it takes to write,
31:33
Speaker 2: and that's just silly. But math is full of that
31:37
Speaker 2: because in the metamath narrative, and this is one of
31:40
Speaker 2: the points that I really want people to understand. Even
31:44
Speaker 2: amongst the highest performing math students, a student who took
31:48
Speaker 2: BC calculus her sophomore year and went on to be
31:53
Speaker 2: an economics professor, she still is looking to select herself
31:57
Speaker 2: out right, because it's like this sorting that there's the
32:00
Speaker 2: math genius. And so up until that point, you're in
32:03
Speaker 2: the game. And then you meet David Spier and you're like,
32:05
Speaker 2: I'm out, I'm out of the gate.
32:07
Speaker 1: Done.
32:08
Speaker 2: It's oh well, yeah, other disciplines don't have this narrative.
32:15
Speaker 2: And this narrative holds back children, it holds back our
32:18
Speaker 2: whole country, It holds back the world from creativity, innovation.
32:24
Speaker 2: Like it's just not good. And so that's that's why
32:27
Speaker 2: I would say, when you only gave me two options,
32:28
Speaker 2: I picked the first, which was believe.
32:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, how do you want people to use the book?
32:35
Speaker 1: And who who should be using I mean, of course,
32:37
Speaker 1: when one writes a book, the answer to who should
32:39
Speaker 1: buy it is all, so it should be all people.
32:42
Speaker 1: But specifically, how do you imagine all those people using
32:45
Speaker 1: this book?
32:46
Speaker 2: Yeah? So one thing that's fun, and I'll come back
32:49
Speaker 2: to this is friends with advanced copies have been sharing
32:54
Speaker 2: that they've been giving the book to their middle schoolers,
32:57
Speaker 2: and I hadn't considered that, so so I want to
32:59
Speaker 2: come back to that.
33:01
Speaker 1: But what I was.
33:02
Speaker 2: Hoping is that adults who you know, are in charge
33:06
Speaker 2: of and love kids, would read the book and kind
33:09
Speaker 2: of go through three steps. The first step is to
33:13
Speaker 2: sort of really confront all these myths in math learning,
33:18
Speaker 2: because if you don't confront the myths, then it's yeah,
33:22
Speaker 2: math sucks, it's really painful. You're going to freaking do
33:26
Speaker 2: it right, That's which that's the takeaway, and that's just terrible.
33:30
Speaker 2: That's not the takeaway. You know, math is beautiful and
33:34
Speaker 2: fun and full of dopamine hits of problem solving. So
33:38
Speaker 2: so the first thing that I want you to do
33:40
Speaker 2: in the first section of the book is like, let's
33:42
Speaker 2: excavate a lot of those math myths and bin them.
33:46
Speaker 2: Let's put those in the trash. And I think we
33:48
Speaker 2: can continuously do that. And the second is the methods
33:52
Speaker 2: that make math fun and to really like explore those methods.
33:56
Speaker 2: And so those are things like making an easier problem,
34:00
Speaker 2: you know, understanding what's going on, not memorizing right. So actually,
34:05
Speaker 2: the enjoyment of mathematics sits in the way in which
34:10
Speaker 2: we understand it. It's basically a language, and it's a
34:14
Speaker 2: really fun and interesting and universal language. And then the
34:17
Speaker 2: last section of the book is like.
34:19
Speaker 1: What you should do?
34:20
Speaker 2: What are you going to do about it? And really,
34:22
Speaker 2: here I'm kind of thinking most about parents and educators
34:25
Speaker 2: and thinking about what they can do to support kids.
34:28
Speaker 2: And if there's one action I really want parents, educators,
34:33
Speaker 2: you know, and everyone to really think about, is all
34:35
Speaker 2: kids fall behind at some point in math. All of them.
34:39
Speaker 2: The ones who continue in the world of mathematics and
34:43
Speaker 2: enjoy it, got some additional boost, some support that could
34:47
Speaker 2: have been an emotional support, that could have been someone
34:50
Speaker 2: who just you know, helped them think about what slope
34:54
Speaker 2: really means. Whatever it was, it wasn't massive, but they
34:59
Speaker 2: got some addition support, they caught up, and then they
35:02
Speaker 2: kept going. And so when kids struggle in math, it
35:04
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that it's the moment now we sort them
35:06
Speaker 2: out of the math pipeline, and it doesn't represent their
35:10
Speaker 2: fundamental ability. It's just part of learning. In every other
35:14
Speaker 2: discipline of learning, we allow kids to catch up when
35:17
Speaker 2: they fall behind. In this discipline, we don't. And my
35:21
Speaker 2: concluding chapter is talking about from sorting to teaching. What
35:26
Speaker 2: if we took the billions of dollars and the millions
35:30
Speaker 2: of hours of effort we're putting behind math teaching and learning,
35:33
Speaker 2: and we didn't orient it to sorting out the math kids,
35:37
Speaker 2: but we just oriented it to teaching every single kid math.
35:40
Speaker 1: What might happen do they Part of the issue, and
35:44
Speaker 1: maybe this is a reframe, is that when we teach math,
35:49
Speaker 1: it is you learn this and you move to the
35:51
Speaker 1: next thing. You learn this, you move to the next thing.
35:53
Speaker 1: And that's to some extent true in English language arts,
35:56
Speaker 1: but in a much less direct way. You learn to read,
35:59
Speaker 1: and then you know how to read, then you're reading
36:02
Speaker 1: more interesting things. But it's somehow the most fundamental piece
36:07
Speaker 1: is there, and it's easier to say everyone's doing that,
36:10
Speaker 1: and then maybe you're better or worse at engaging with
36:13
Speaker 1: James Joyce. But that's a little bit subjective. Whereas in math,
36:18
Speaker 1: you're moving up the ladder. You add, you subtract, you multiply,
36:20
Speaker 1: you divide, you do fractions, so it feels like you
36:24
Speaker 1: have to either keep going or you fall off the ladder.
36:27
Speaker 1: There's no like tree branching, right like reading is a
36:30
Speaker 1: tree where we're kind of we can all get up
36:33
Speaker 1: to the limbs and then we walk our way out
36:36
Speaker 1: and maybe where some of us are going a bit higher,
36:38
Speaker 1: but we're all kind of there. Math is like it's
36:40
Speaker 1: a ladder and when you're done, we just throw you
36:43
Speaker 1: off into the pit of despair.
36:46
Speaker 2: Maybe you know, I think there's there. There is a
36:49
Speaker 2: nature of math that is cumulative. So if you're struggling
36:53
Speaker 2: with addition, it would be pretty silly to present calculus,
36:57
Speaker 2: so there is no question of that cumulative nature. I
37:00
Speaker 2: don't know, like if you're struggling to sound out words,
37:04
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm bringing you Shakespeareans on it,
37:06
Speaker 2: So I don't know that they're that different. But I'm
37:09
Speaker 2: not a reading expert. So but here here's what i'd say,
37:12
Speaker 2: which is the idea of maths a lot of discrete
37:15
Speaker 2: skills is a very dangerous myth. So let me give
37:19
Speaker 2: you an example. In seventh grade, we find particularly post pandemic.
37:23
Speaker 2: A lot of seventh graders in the app are struggling
37:26
Speaker 2: with decimal division.
37:29
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, like dividing a like point two divided by two.
37:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, perfect, And in seventh grade we are not teaching
37:36
Speaker 2: decimal division that those ideas are taught in fourth fifth,
37:40
Speaker 2: you know that's sort of when you're supposed to master
37:42
Speaker 2: all that. But like, for example, I talked about negative
37:44
Speaker 2: numbers earlier. Negative numbers is one of the things that
37:47
Speaker 2: we really want to master in seventh grade, and so
37:49
Speaker 2: when kids are sitting and learning negative numbers, but they're
37:52
Speaker 2: struggling with decimal division, that interferes with the new learning. So, like,
37:57
Speaker 2: I'll give you a simple problem that this is actually
38:00
Speaker 2: the zert app One point four divided by two can
38:04
Speaker 2: present struggle for students. So now what do we not
38:08
Speaker 2: present negative numbers because you have to memory, you have
38:11
Speaker 2: to learn all of this decimal division. Well, here's what's shocking.
38:15
Speaker 2: Shocking finding of how fast kids can often catch up
38:20
Speaker 2: fourteen divided by two. What's the answer to that question?
38:24
Speaker 1: Are you asking me seven? It's seven?
38:28
Speaker 2: And then we put one point four divided by two
38:30
Speaker 2: back in front of them again on screen, the vast
38:33
Speaker 2: majority of children to answer zero point seven. Boom, you're
38:37
Speaker 2: back into negative numbers. So it is the case that
38:40
Speaker 2: kids do have gaps, they fall behind, they have misunderstandings.
38:47
Speaker 2: That's completely true, but it's not the case that that
38:52
Speaker 2: becomes a roadblock to the learning in front of you.
38:56
Speaker 2: It just isn't, and we show that over and over.
38:59
Speaker 2: They're billion into math problems completed on the app, and
39:01
Speaker 2: we just keep showing that over and over. Now, that
39:04
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that when a child is struggling with decimals,
39:07
Speaker 2: we're just like, move on, it's fine. But it means
39:10
Speaker 2: the solution to helping that child struggling is often a
39:13
Speaker 2: thirty second solve, a five minutes solve. Right back to
39:18
Speaker 2: the mathematician I was citing, where kids are ten to
39:20
Speaker 2: twenty minutes behind. It's pretty tight, these solutions. And that's
39:25
Speaker 2: because while it's additions to traction fractions, you know, while
39:30
Speaker 2: it moves like that, it's just all base ten. It's
39:33
Speaker 2: actually just one thing happening.
39:35
Speaker 1: Yes, I want to end by asking you that's something
39:39
Speaker 1: that you say in the introduction, so you talk a
39:43
Speaker 1: little the very first part of the book about transferring
39:45
Speaker 1: schools in sixth grade and being put in the honors
39:47
Speaker 1: math class and feeling quite lost. And I'm just going
39:51
Speaker 1: to read it. After our first test, mister Snyder said,
39:54
Speaker 1: you did well. If you try your very best, you
39:57
Speaker 1: could be just as good as the boys, and you
39:59
Speaker 1: write about this as like the moment of inspiration of
40:03
Speaker 1: thinking like I can. I mean, you also note that
40:07
Speaker 1: that isn't perhaps how you would want someone to talk
40:09
Speaker 1: to your own child in today's world. But there's this
40:14
Speaker 1: piece of it that I found very striking because it,
40:16
Speaker 1: in its own weird way expresses a kind of you
40:22
Speaker 1: can get there, but you're not there yet, which feels
40:25
Speaker 1: so important and I think actually quite hard to communicate
40:30
Speaker 1: to our kids that you know you can get there.
40:33
Speaker 1: It's going to take work, you know, but I believe
40:36
Speaker 1: that you can do the work different than I believe
40:38
Speaker 1: you've already done the work. And that's just I think
40:42
Speaker 1: for parents, for teachers, that message is hard because you're
40:45
Speaker 1: trying to tell someone you believe in them while also
40:48
Speaker 1: telling them they haven't quite they got to put more
40:51
Speaker 1: in to get there.
40:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think our sort of present culture somehow
40:58
Speaker 2: is making this harder. This is a silly story, but
41:03
Speaker 2: blew my mind. So we last week with my thirteen
41:06
Speaker 2: year old twin boys, we went to our first rock concert.
41:09
Speaker 2: A lot of their friends had gone to see Taylor
41:10
Speaker 2: Swift and they're not Swifties, so we saw Maroon five
41:14
Speaker 2: and Adam Levine.
41:16
Speaker 1: Who's the least add to the two thousands?
41:19
Speaker 2: Okay, totally totally cool, exactly like I wanted to enjoy
41:23
Speaker 2: the music as well. And so Adam Levine at the end,
41:26
Speaker 2: who's you know, a bit older than you, Emily. He
41:30
Speaker 2: ends the concert and he's like, for all the young
41:32
Speaker 2: people out there, I just want to tell you that
41:35
Speaker 2: one path to success in life is to work as
41:39
Speaker 2: hard as you possibly can. And then he added some
41:41
Speaker 2: expletives to that, and I just was like, I hope
41:45
Speaker 2: my kids are listening, but you know, so scary to
41:49
Speaker 2: think that if we can't present to children that the
41:54
Speaker 2: input of greatness is hard work, then the only other
41:58
Speaker 2: possible input of greatness is genetic ability.
42:02
Speaker 1: Yeah.
42:02
Speaker 2: So I agree that I wouldn't want my kids math
42:05
Speaker 2: teacher to, you know, say some gender insensitive things to them.
42:10
Speaker 2: But being told in that class where I was, in
42:13
Speaker 2: my view, in last place, that I could be in
42:17
Speaker 2: first place if I worked hard, you know, I just
42:20
Speaker 2: thought I would just be in second to last place.
42:22
Speaker 2: You know, I wasn't. I just didn't have those kinds
42:25
Speaker 2: of expectations for myself. But that the only difference between
42:28
Speaker 2: where I was and where I could be it was
42:30
Speaker 2: hard work. It really blew my mind, and I do
42:34
Speaker 2: hope that that adults are sharing that lesson with kids.
42:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I was in high school, my physics teacher
42:41
Speaker 1: told me that girls didn't usually do well in the
42:45
Speaker 1: honors business class. It was not like a common about me.
42:47
Speaker 1: It was like it was like one of his opening
42:48
Speaker 1: seats to the class. It was like, girls don't usually
42:51
Speaker 1: do well in this class. And I remember going to
42:53
Speaker 1: the female chemistry teacher and complaining about this and saying
42:56
Speaker 1: he said this, and she was just like, well, I
42:58
Speaker 1: guess they'll have to do the best. Then, like, why
43:00
Speaker 1: don't you work hard and do the best. It was
43:02
Speaker 1: like totally just like I'm sure that you can achieve that,
43:05
Speaker 1: and like, but it was so different from how I
43:07
Speaker 1: think that would be presented now. But and for probably
43:11
Speaker 1: good reason. But this idea of if you put in
43:16
Speaker 1: the time and you work hard, that is a huge
43:19
Speaker 1: part of what you can achieve in some ways feels
43:22
Speaker 1: like the belief part of this conversation just stated in
43:25
Speaker 1: a slightly different way that like, I believe in you.
43:27
Speaker 1: It's not that I believe you can do it. Just
43:30
Speaker 1: sitting on your button ever trying, but I believe that
43:32
Speaker 1: you can put in the time and that you can
43:34
Speaker 1: get there.
43:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean one of the chapters in the book
43:38
Speaker 2: is practice with Purpose, and it's one of the key messages,
43:42
Speaker 2: which is like, Okay, yes we can present mathematics differently
43:46
Speaker 2: so that it's interesting, creative, makes sense, it's our learning
43:51
Speaker 2: is durable, Like we can do all that. But then
43:53
Speaker 2: at the end, you got to practice.
43:56
Speaker 1: You gotta do it.
43:56
Speaker 2: You just got to do it. You have to build
43:58
Speaker 2: those neural pathways. You have to build a math mind.
44:02
Speaker 2: And there's nothing, there's no shortcuts. You've got to practice.
44:11
Speaker 1: Shlinnie, thank you so much for being here. Congratulations on
44:14
Speaker 1: the book. The book is called math Mind, The Simple
44:17
Speaker 1: Path to Loving Math, and everyone should go by it immediately.
44:21
Speaker 2: Thank you, Emily, it's been a pleasure.
44:37
Speaker 1: Parent Data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from
44:40
Speaker 1: the parent Data team and PI Rex. If you have
44:43
Speaker 1: thoughts on this episode, please join the conversation on my
44:45
Speaker 1: Instagram at Prof Emily Oster, and if you want to
44:49
Speaker 1: support the show, become a subscriber to parent Data at
44:52
Speaker 1: parentdata dot org, where you can subscribe to weekly newsletters
44:56
Speaker 1: on everything to do with parents and data to help
44:59
Speaker 1: you make better, more informed parenting decisions. We've just rolled
45:03
Speaker 1: out a new set of subscription tiers where you can
45:05
Speaker 1: get targeted newsletters in your inbox about, say, big kids
45:10
Speaker 1: or babies and toddlers. Sign up at parent data dot org.
45:16
Speaker 1: There are a lot of ways you can help people
45:17
Speaker 1: find out about us. Leave a rating or a review
45:20
Speaker 1: on Apple podcasts. Text your friend about something you learned
45:22
Speaker 1: from this episode. Debate your mother in law about the
45:25
Speaker 1: merits of something parents do now that is totally different
45:28
Speaker 1: from what she did. Post a story to your Instagram
45:31
Speaker 1: demunking a panic headline of your own. Just remember to
45:34
Speaker 1: mention the podcast too, Write penelpe right, mom, We'll see
45:39
Speaker 1: you next time. I the other day came across at
45:47
Speaker 1: my parents' house a worksheet in which I had used
45:51
Speaker 1: the numbers one, two, three, and four in combination to
45:56
Speaker 1: generate all of the other numbers up to one hundred
46:00
Speaker 1: one plus two plus three plus four. That's not.
46:09
Speaker 2: Caf io.
46:10
Speaker 1: Could be anything