Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / $1.6 Billion of Equity On-Chain. Here Is Why.

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$1.6 Billion of Equity On-Chain. Here Is Why. · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

0:00
The smartest move you can make as a founder right now is to run
0:03
from the AI revolution. Stop building, stop coding, stop
0:07
leveraging AI. I'll put it like this.
0:08
The last great gold rush in America made a handful of people
0:11
unimaginably rich and everybody else with broken backs and empty
0:15
pants. And this one, it's moving 1000
0:18
times faster. We're watching trillion dollar
0:20
companies get built behind closed doors while 99% of
0:23
Americans are locked out of the upside.
0:26
Microsoft IPO D at 800 million and created a generation of
0:29
millionaires. Today, companies stay private
0:31
until they're worth 500 billion and the wealth goes to a happy
0:34
few. So while you're grinding 16
0:36
hours a day building your AI startup, are you the prospector
0:39
with no gold, or are you the guy getting rich selling shovels for
0:43
someone else's dream? Welcome to AI for founders.
0:46
I'm Ryan Estes, and today I'm sitting down with Joris from
0:48
Fairmont to breakdown. Three things that will change
0:51
how you think about your company forever #1 why Distribution, not
0:55
product, is the new defensible mode in the AI era #2 how to
0:59
turn your cap table into a programmable money machine that
1:02
pays your team automatically the second you hit your revenue
1:05
goals. And #3 the one mistake 90% of
1:08
founders make with equity that cost them millions down the
1:11
road. Now, do you want to feel like
1:13
the smartest founder in every room?
1:14
Walk into slide over to AI for founders.co and join the
1:18
newsletter where we drop Frontier Insights every single
1:21
week. It's free, it's fire.
1:23
And your future self is going to thank you for hitting that
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subscribe button today. And if this episode hit you in
1:28
the fields, leave us a five star review.
1:29
So the algorithm, gods bless the next founder who needs to hear
1:32
this. Love this conversation with
1:34
Joris. Let's dive in.
1:40
All right, Joris, welcome to the show.
1:42
Thank you so much for joining me.
1:44
Thanks Ryan for having me. Yeah, my pleasure.
1:47
So excited to get into this conversation today.
1:50
But I want to start off with my admiration for the French, So
1:57
doing a little research on you. Of course, I know you're French,
2:00
you're based in Connecticut, but I spent all weekend watching
2:03
this great documentary about the men of the frontier.
2:07
We're talking like post Revolutionary War America.
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And, you know, it's interesting what a kinship the French and
2:14
the Americans had at that time. Truly, probably America would
2:17
not have won the Revolutionary War if not for the French.
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But also the French shared this dot, this drive and passion for
2:26
the frontier. And that extends, you know, for
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100 years after, you know, the Declaration of Independence,
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when they're getting in into Kentucky and they're getting
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into Louisiana, they're getting into, you know, the Louisiana
2:39
Purchase, they're getting into Texas.
2:41
They're going all the way to California, all the way to the
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Oregon Trail. Like it really was the French
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and the American frontiersmen that are that are pushing this,
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this direction W you know, and when I, what I was kind of
2:55
inspired about was it seems like that kind of passion still
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exists to this day. And if you look at what you're
3:01
doing in blockchain and with AI and what I'm interested in,
3:05
again, it seems to be the French and the Americans that are
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pushing the way forward into the unknown frontier.
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So. Fantastic and and and culture, I
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think. Yeah.
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Tell me a little bit about French culture and that push
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towards the unknown. Well, so you raise a very
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interesting point talking about history and, and before to
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answer your question, I think history is what's really missing
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from most of the curriculum these days that we teach to
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kids. Because when you know history,
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you get a way better reading of what's the current world and
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where we can go. And you mentioned the culture,
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you mentioned the way our two countries have been working and
3:55
building together. I think at the end it's a matter
3:57
of like culture in a sense that like, where do you want to go?
4:01
What do you want to build? And it's always a matter of
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like, you don't really know what to expect, but you believe you,
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you, you have a strong belief that if you keep pushing in a
4:14
One Direction, then maybe the world would be better.
4:17
And, and obviously we do it very differently both side of the
4:22
Atlantic. But I would say that the
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revolutionary mindset that we have in in France is still
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pretty intact in most of the builders that I discuss with
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today in many, many aspects. Like without doing politics, but
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just like the vision of a better distribution among capitalism,
4:51
the vision among, you know, the fact that, you know, we are
4:56
borderless and we can still build and we can still shape and
5:00
we can work together. I mean, all those values that
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are core to our countries are still very present today.
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And I think that we kind of forget that sometimes because of
5:17
all these politic reality show. But the reality is that the real
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people that are shaping the world of tomorrow are the the,
5:27
the entrepreneurs. And it's a French word, by the
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way. There you go.
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Entrepreneur. Entrepreneur.
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Exactly. Yeah, it's amazing.
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And almost, it's like the the revolutions in both countries
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were just kind of like a, a afterthought to what the real
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intention was. You know what I mean?
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Like the French Revolution was wild, obviously, you know, but
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but both the Americans and the French had this desire for
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something new to build something of their own that was being kept
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from them. You know, it's like, you know,
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especially Europe, of course, it's like all of the land was
6:05
settled a long time ago. You couldn't have something for
6:08
yourself because all the rich guys and the, and the, the, the,
6:11
the crown owned everything. So there's this desire, this
6:15
push to go make something for yourself, you know, and when I'm
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watching this documentary, I'm just there, there's, there's so
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much to learn from these guys because of how hard it was, you
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know, and like truly insane, you know, thinking about like Kit
6:28
Carson. And it's fun because I'm a more
6:30
of a 19th century Old West guy. But to read about the 18th
6:34
century of really kind of getting, you know, West of the
6:37
Mississippi a little bit, the attributes these guys had were
6:40
insane, like what they had to endure was crazy.
6:43
And it, it, it's a little bit inspirational because, you know,
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I talked to founders all day long, you know, being a founder
6:50
myself and a lot of the common trend I find from people that
6:53
are like just starting to all the way to be venture backed
6:55
billionaires. It's like, it's how hard it is
6:58
every single day. You got to wake up, you got to
7:01
push, push, push to fight against entropy.
7:03
You know, so sometimes like hearing the grit and the, the
7:07
determination and the, the life or death struggle that these
7:10
guys had, boy, it really kind of puts into perspective that like
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what I'm doing is hard, but I'm also in this nice air
7:15
conditioned office. So let's see.
7:17
So maybe we can cowboy up and get it going.
7:21
You. Know anytime I'm thinking, Oh my
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God, what is like the, the climate here is very different
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from France. And, and when it's super humid,
7:30
super hot, I'm like, how did they do at that time, you know,
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to support that? And they were just doing good,
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you know, I mean, of, of course it was painful, but they were
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still like believe, believing in what they were building and, and
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they ended up doing it. And yeah, I, I, it's
7:49
fascinating. This is a this is a fight, a
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fascinating country here precisely because everything was
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built over the last few 100 years.
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Yeah. And, and coming from from
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Europe, where indeed you have stuff that are thousands and
8:05
thousands years old. And like you said, it was, it
8:08
was already built and, and used and everything.
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But here it's like a, you know, something that you had to shape
8:15
super fast in a very short period of time.
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And not a lot of countries are effectively like this.
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Yeah, 100%. And it is kind of analogous to
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right now, because if you think about it, we get all the way to
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California and we defeat the Mexican Army, we push them out
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of California. We're like, OK, we stake our
8:36
claim, but boy, California is really far from Saint Louis.
8:41
Not even thinking about Washington, DC Like California
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is way out there. And they're like, Oh my gosh,
8:46
how are we going to get people to settle?
8:48
How are we going to get people to come here?
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Because ultimately if you don't have people then it's just going
8:52
to be 1 armies defeating the next to take the land that
8:55
nobody lives on. And that that's what gave the
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the one of the main revolution, the industrial revolution with
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the railway. And if you think about it like
9:08
all the things that came as a massive innovation at that time
9:13
was what? So the train, the the, the
9:18
airplanes and the telecommunication, the way to
9:23
communicate differently. Why?
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Well, because at that time there there are this problematic here
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and it was a problem that needed to be fixed.
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We need to go super far as fast as possible without horses and
9:36
we need to send a message super far without waiting for the
9:41
train and and so you end up with the revolution, right?
9:47
What is your revolution? Yeah, you know what in the the
9:51
train like they probably would have looked West and be like,
9:53
dude, it's not worth it. Why would we put a train out
9:55
there? But the the year after they take
9:58
California, they discover gold and then 400,000 people a year
10:04
later, boom, they go, they go. So it's like when you find that
10:08
nugget of gold that moves people, their whole lives
10:12
change. And now we're ready to go.
10:14
Now it feels like in the last few months, honestly, maybe the
10:19
last couple of years, we've discovered gold and people are
10:23
moving. And I think it's like, it's that
10:25
kind of like excitement that people are forming companies,
10:28
you know, people are are being like, oh, there's new ways that
10:30
we can communicate. There's new ways that we can
10:32
travel. There's new ways we can do this
10:34
faster and better. And then we have all this
10:36
momentum now because we found gold and nobody knows how to get
10:39
it out of the earth yet. Yeah, I agree.
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I agree. But The thing is that what,
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what's very different today is that you find gold wherever you
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are in the world. Before you had to be at a very
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specific place today. I mean, you have multiple place
11:01
where you can face that and, and, and start to build
11:06
something different. Like I, I think people
11:09
underestimate how fast China is moving.
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Yeah. And, and we are very centric to,
11:16
you know, our own world. But we should not forget that
11:23
because what's happening today is what will be the massive
11:28
shift of the next 2025 years for this billions of people in China
11:36
and, and the day this happened, it will have an impact on
11:39
everyone's life here as well. Quick side note for founders who
11:44
are using AI to write content, you've probably noticed this.
11:47
It's incredibly fast, but it doesn't really Dr. meaningful
11:50
traffic. And honestly, that's because
11:52
most AI generated content is just average.
11:55
There's no real insight, no depth, no structure missing
11:59
things like internal linking, and Google's getting very good
12:02
at filtering that out. So instead of trying to just
12:04
prompt better, I actually came across something interesting
12:07
called Neenah. It's a system that combines
12:10
human strategy and review with AI writing to create high
12:13
quality SEO optimized blog content that's actually designed
12:17
to rank. And.
12:18
Keep ranking. What I like about it is that
12:20
it's done for me. Their team handles the topic
12:23
strategy in the content review and data markups for Google and
12:27
turns blog posts into actual long term traffic assets.
12:31
So if you're a founder thinking seriously about organic growth,
12:34
this is one of those things worth paying attention to.
12:36
You can check it out at Try neena.co.
12:39
That's TRYNIN a.co. Try neena.co.
12:46
I want to tell you about someone I think you should hire.
12:48
Her name is Casey Taylor, and Casey is an AI partnership
12:51
agent, and Casey's entire job is securing brand sponsorships for
12:55
your podcast, not handing you a spreadsheet, actually reaching
12:59
out, making the pitch, and closing the deal for your show
13:02
on your behalf. Chasing sponsorships for
13:05
podcasters is a headache. They'd rather be recording
13:07
episodes. Casey manages that completely.
13:10
You brief Casey on your show, Casey goes to work and you get
13:13
back to doing the thing you're actually good at.
13:15
Whether you've got 5000 listeners or 50,000, she knows
13:19
how to find the right brands for your audience and get them on
13:21
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13:23
Every podcaster does. Go to gethowdy.com, that's
13:26
GETHOW di.com and meet Casey Taylor.
13:31
Your new partnership agent is ready when you are 100% and I
13:35
think it's really important. That we stay ahead right now,
13:40
you know, I know right now people are getting a little bit
13:43
up in arms about data centers and about like all this the, the
13:47
power and the expense and there's probably a lot of
13:49
misinformation. And so they're like trying to
13:51
halt the, the data centers and stuff from being completed.
13:55
But right now, again, it's the, this American ingenuity that is
14:00
pushing all of the innovation. And right now we're ahead, you
14:04
know, I mean, China's coming up very quickly and they don't
14:07
don't have any of the regulatory bodies that are saying slow
14:10
down, slow down, slow down. So they're, they're moving
14:12
really fast. They're bringing more power on
14:14
faster than we can. So, you know, I think for maybe
14:18
it's preaching to the choir, to this audience, but like in order
14:20
for us to stay in the having the advantage, it's like we need to
14:25
be able to follow this path of ingenuity and speed, you know,
14:30
and we've got that right now. Yeah.
14:32
And and we also need to be very careful on the way we distribute
14:37
the wells created because right now like all the innovation that
14:42
you, you mentioned that that makes the US ahead.
14:47
Unfortunately the wells created is not well redistributed in the
14:53
US and that is creating a massive issue.
14:58
But if I compare to 50 years ago when everyone was getting more
15:04
access to companies sync like Microsoft IPO ING in 86808
15:12
hundred million valuation, Literally during 40 years you
15:16
had people building their own retirement plan based on
15:19
Microsoft, right? Using the stocks of public
15:23
markets to build their wells. The problem is that now that we
15:30
have companies going public super late, the wells created by
15:35
those companies goes to a happy few.
15:40
And and the problem is if you don't have this distribution of
15:45
wells properly done, then you diminish the ability for people
15:50
to do more, to build more, to buy more to and and that is an
15:55
issue that the Chinese don't have like right now they are IPO
15:59
in companies at 5 billion. Yeah.
16:03
Robotics companies, AI companies.
16:05
And So what will happen in 20 years?
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Well, probably we'll start seeing a massive middle class in
16:12
China that will see its wealth becoming so big that they will
16:18
be the one willing to travel the world as tourist, asking for
16:25
people to talk their language, as asking people to, you know,
16:30
have their own meals and accepting their own money and
16:36
currency. And that's a bit like the US
16:39
imperialism that could be flipped if we don't pay
16:43
attention to that. So I like the idea of being
16:45
ahead if we are able to have a capitalism that is
16:48
redistributive enough. Because if not, then you get a
16:52
risk of just being, you know, ahead until the day that some
16:57
others will be ahead as a population.
17:00
The idea too, of like that redistribution being through
17:03
like access to equity, you know, because ultimately there is a
17:08
self determinism in the American psyche that we're talking about.
17:12
These Frontiers guys, yeah, I want to go out and make it on my
17:15
own, you know? And so when they're like, oh, if
17:18
Elon's talking about, no, we're just going to cut everybody a
17:21
check and everyone's going to get make money and you don't
17:23
have to work anymore and don't worry about it.
17:25
You know, that just doesn't doesn't fall in line with the at
17:28
least the American sensibility, you know, So if we're talking
17:31
about opening up new opportunities for equity share,
17:34
whether that's like redefining what it means to be a credit
17:37
investor. I mean, the bar isn't that high
17:39
to be a credit investor, but still for probably the majority
17:42
of Americans, it's a little bit out of reach, you know?
17:45
So if there's new opportunities to have these investments again
17:48
now you feel like you're self determined, like I can navigate
17:52
the terrain kind of as best as I can, you know?
17:55
But the best way to solve the problem of accreditation is just
17:58
to let companies go public earlier.
18:01
In that case, everyone will because the the the problem of
18:06
accreditation is not the accreditation itself is the fact
18:09
that as company remain private, it's only the accredited people
18:13
that can capture the financial upside.
18:16
Right before, if you were going public super early, who cared
18:20
about the accreditation rule? You know you were, you knew that
18:23
if a company was reaching a few hundreds of millions or $1
18:27
billion evaluation, it would be public soon.
18:31
And so then everyone can participate.
18:34
The capable is not limited anymore to 2000 seats and, and,
18:38
and you can access it and, and build your portfolio.
18:42
The, the biggest problem today is, is not in the accreditation
18:45
rule. To me is more like how do we
18:48
make sure that companies can be more public faster?
18:53
How can we make sure that the rules and the disclosure
19:00
required to be public are acceptable for an earlier stage
19:07
type of company? Yeah. 100% I'd love to see both.
19:11
Personally, I love to invest in startups, private companies,
19:15
because I feel like I can influence the change.
19:17
Of course. You know what I'm saying?
19:18
Like I, I feel like this stock market's a little bit games and
19:23
which is just to say that people understand it better than me.
19:26
But yeah, I mean, the the IP OS we're going to see maybe in the
19:29
next year, maybe SpaceX, you know, we're talking about like
19:31
trillion dollar companies. Like there's so many of these
19:34
gigantic companies that, you know, your normal person can't
19:38
capitalize on on their benefits. So yeah, I think it's a great
19:41
idea to help people kind of share on the bounty that's being
19:44
created right now because it does seem like the the kind of
19:47
wage gaps are getting further and further Agree.
19:50
You know, I was thinking of one amazing French frontiersman as
19:55
well that we also owe a large credit to, which is Toussaint
20:00
Charbonneau. I probably pronounced it.
20:02
Incorrectly, but that was talking to Waya's husband and he
20:05
was like a, a Beaver pelt trader and basically sent her with
20:09
Lewis and Clark to go forge that whole path to the West Coast.
20:13
And just there's such a, a miraculous kind of like chain of
20:17
events that happened during that quest.
20:19
But again, like you see a French guy with the Americans and the
20:23
indigenous people that all share this rugged determinism to like
20:27
make it for themselves. And that's what we're seeing
20:29
right now. And I'm glad you brought up as
20:30
far as like investing on in cap tables and equity because that
20:35
really kind of bridges us to your company, which I'd love for
20:38
people to learn about because I think what you're doing is
20:40
brilliant. And I, I have a million
20:42
questions about it. So give us an introduction real
20:45
quick to fairmintwhichiscanbefound@fairmint.com.
20:50
FAIR mint.com. So, yeah, thank you, Ryan.
20:55
So at Fairmint, we are on the mission.
20:58
We, we want to bring equity of companies on chain and we don't
21:02
do that in a fancy way like we really believe that it is a
21:06
better technology for equity to move.
21:10
Once it is issued, it can be easily transfer and the cost of
21:14
those transfer can be minimized by using this technology.
21:19
So the goal at Ferment is, is very simple in a way.
21:21
It's like we turn the complex and old capable system into
21:26
smart contract and we are literally embracing a world
21:30
where we are moving from a compliance by intermediation
21:33
where you add a lot of people to a world of compliance by
21:38
automation where you have a smart contract, you have rules,
21:42
the rules are mimicking the securities laws.
21:45
And basically whenever something needs to apply, then it's
21:48
automatically applying to this equity.
21:52
And so, so Fairmint is now an SEC register transfer agent and
21:57
we are working actively to also become a broker dealer.
22:01
The goal for us is really like to facilitate the life of
22:05
shareholders and founders and board members when it comes to
22:10
managing whoever is participating to the, the cap
22:14
table, the the, to any fundraising event, whether it's
22:20
off chain or on chain to the stock option plan to the, the
22:24
movement of equity when the company decides to allow
22:28
transfer. And it's also like a way of
22:34
saying, hey, you're capable as value your shareholder, they own
22:40
a piece of something that they would like to use tomorrow,
22:44
maybe as a collateral if you think of an employee.
22:48
I think it's very important when you own paper money at one point
22:52
to be able to see that this paper money means something.
22:56
And if you start getting, I don't know ten 20-30 cents on a
23:01
dollar for that when you need to purchase your first home, well
23:08
it would make sense to offer that to a broader range of
23:11
employees in the US or in the world.
23:14
And when and that looked me back to what we were discussing,
23:17
which is the equity is one of the best component to create
23:24
wealth. So, so yeah, it's ill liquid in
23:29
the sense that you couldn't use it as leverage to buy a house.
23:32
Well that's the point. If it's completely liquid but
23:35
you have people able to create some form of loan even if there
23:39
is an LTV on it, an interest rate and all, But if they are OK
23:44
to give you something out of a dollar for the shares that you
23:48
own in a company like why not? Yeah, 100%.
23:53
So I want to throw a couple of case studies at you just to see,
23:57
because my understanding of blockchain is limited, my
24:00
understanding of like SEC is limited.
24:04
So you can kind of walk me through it like there's, there's
24:09
they call it the golden handcuffs, right?
24:11
You, you start to make a certain amount.
24:13
I'm talking about a big enterprise.
24:15
And then instead of giving you raises, they start giving you
24:18
like shares. And so the shares have a vesting
24:21
period and things like that. If if those shares were
24:24
converted were converted to onto the blockchain, does that give
24:28
me as an employee a certain advantages?
24:32
Yes, so, so a few things. Once again, the fact that
24:36
companies are staying private longer create liquidity issues.
24:42
Why? Well, if you are an employee,
24:44
you bet on a company and after 15 years the company is still
24:48
private. Like basically how do you get
24:50
access to liquidity? That's the big question that
24:54
many investors, angels, but also employees are facing today.
25:01
And So what we are doing at Ferment is a, we looked at what
25:06
has been built in decentralized finance for the last 10 years
25:11
and literally the way the creativity of builders in
25:16
decentralized finance has been such that we can create markets
25:21
very easily. That's called the automated
25:24
market makers where if there is a trade to happen, we can
25:30
completely async create a pool of liquidity on one end, a pool
25:35
of assets on the other end and it will match whenever it has to
25:38
be matched. You know, and, and in the, in
25:42
the very concrete case that you mentioned, like you own shares
25:46
of an illiquid company and all, well, nothing prevents tomorrow
25:52
a lender to say, hey, I believe in this asset.
25:56
OK, it might take a lot of time and it's risky.
25:59
So of course I won't give you a dollar for a dollar.
26:03
But look, if you accept an interest rate plus maybe 30% on
26:09
a dollar, then I can, I can take the control of the financial
26:14
upside of your shares in exchange for this money.
26:18
And you have this money right away.
26:21
Well, that's a way of starting, you know, creating some form of
26:25
liquidity on something that is completely liquid.
26:29
And, and I think you mentioned the golden calf that, that the
26:34
golden calf that, that that's exactly what you don't want to,
26:37
to have. Because if you are a founder and
26:41
no one wants your shares, not even your employees, then you
26:46
need to find a solution because that's what you want them to
26:49
help you build. And if, if you don't have
26:54
attractivity with those shares, then you have a very strong
26:58
issue. So you need to fit that.
27:00
And that's where I think that many founder will start to
27:04
think, OK, maybe it's time for me to move on.
27:08
Shane, two of my cap table on chain precisely to make sure
27:12
that my assets are valued more than my competitor that is off
27:17
chain. And I would be able to drive a
27:21
better group of employees to me, a better group of Angel to me
27:28
because they they see that by being on chain, my asset, my
27:34
shares are programmable. Yeah.
27:37
And if they are programmable, then they can serve as a
27:40
potential collateral for anything else.
27:44
And it's a zero to 1 type of game like the old system, you
27:48
know that it you cannot do anything with it.
27:51
OK. Or the cost of Eddy transaction
27:54
would be so expensive that the marginal cost doesn't make the
27:58
operation to be worth it. But if you are on chain, then
28:03
you're just embracing a whole new ecosystem.
28:07
Yeah. It, it makes all the the
28:08
transactions really smooth and easy.
28:10
Then you're just working on the market maker to say like, OK,
28:13
what you're just negotiating on the margins.
28:15
Exactly. And you can participate in
28:18
things that are broader. You can start pulling things,
28:21
you can start indexing things like you can sync as a mini
28:25
phone, you can sync of baskets. I mean, all the things that we
28:29
know that have been billed as derivative for years, it's a
28:33
world of private market that is potentially embracing that that
28:37
ecosystem of derivative that's huge.
28:41
Beautiful. Another use case I was thinking
28:44
about as well is I'll get opportunities from startups that
28:49
want to do basically like a distribution Co founder.
28:52
So they'll come to me and say, hey, Ryan, we want you to do
28:55
content for us. We want you to do XYZ.
28:58
We're kind of cash light, but we'll give you equity in the
29:01
company in order for the distribution.
29:05
And it's always interesting, but I've always said no because it's
29:07
like, OK, we got tax liabilities.
29:09
I'm trying to deal with your like, you know, with your
29:13
valuation, what kind of like numbers you've given to me.
29:15
Ultimately, it kind of becomes more of a headache than it's
29:18
worth. And I'd say 90% of the time
29:20
that's come out turned out well, but 10% of the time I missed out
29:24
on a great opportunity. So you know in this instance
29:27
like how would being on chain maybe make it easier for for the
29:30
startup and and for me? So I've never been a very fond
29:36
of things like this like advisory type of share and all
29:41
because many, many time the founder is in a position where
29:45
he's looking for some form of social proof and he's not really
29:50
buying a concrete stuff. So in your case, it might be a
29:53
little bit different because you come with a real distribution,
29:56
but it's very hard to access that.
29:58
The second thing that I noticed with advisory type of shares is
30:04
sometimes you make a decision super early when you just create
30:09
the company and you end up five, 610 years later with someone on
30:14
your cap table that didn't produce anything, didn't bring
30:17
any value, but he owns 3% and you're like, why?
30:21
Like So what I like and, and, and that's very opinionated is
30:28
the idea that we should tie a realization to the shares that
30:36
are given. It's really like a bona fide
30:40
service that is given to the company and you assess that
30:45
value. And if it's an amount of money,
30:47
then you convert it into shares or you try to find a way to get
30:52
cash out of it so that you have a real cash transaction here.
30:57
Because once again, equity is what is the most valuable for a
31:02
founder. And I know that when you start,
31:05
it seems like, OK, I have 100% anyway I can give it.
31:09
Yeah. But the reality is, man, like
31:11
the day you start to get bigger, every fraction of your cap table
31:17
means something. And it's a pain.
31:19
And if you don't fight for that, like no one will.
31:22
And for you. And so for founders, I think we
31:25
need to educate them more. And in your case, I think that
31:28
it's it's you are you are it. It's very positive that you tell
31:34
them no because they don't realize that they are trading
31:39
something at a cost that they might regret one day.
31:44
And they, I think they should better go after money revenue,
31:51
any type of revenue stream that they can get to get the cash to
31:55
pay you. And, and then you, you have the
31:58
cash and you can say, hey, you know what, I'm interesting to
32:02
invest and here is the cash that I give you to get the shares.
32:07
But at least they were not given.
32:09
Yeah, I totally agree. It, it does seem it can be kind
32:13
of predatorial, I think sometimes because you need to
32:15
get a lot of technical founders that just don't know what to do
32:18
about sales. It's like solve that problem
32:21
first, then let's talk agree, you know?
32:24
Especially at this era, the AI era, I mean, we spent 20 years
32:30
learning about PMS product market fit everyone at 2.
32:34
And and that after an era where people were spending 20-30 years
32:39
building before they had a product that was working to the
32:43
software era where it was easy to build a software piece of
32:47
software in a few months and then start promoting it and then
32:52
compounding on what was building and, and scaling.
32:56
But now with the AI era, distribution is key.
33:03
You want to make sure that you bring the right partners, the
33:06
right builders around you because your distribution is
33:10
what will make your products successful or not more than
33:14
ever. And and that's very new because
33:18
with AI, yeah, the, the product is almost done on the spot.
33:22
Yeah, you can knock it off fast. So it's like you have to have
33:25
deep inroads. I mean your expertise and your
33:28
distribution really is your defensible IP at this point.
33:31
Exactly. Yeah, interesting.
33:34
So as far as like having your equity on blockchain on chain,
33:40
is there additional kind of tax benefits as well?
33:45
No, there is nothing that changes whether it's on chain or
33:49
not. The only thing that I think is
33:52
super convenient is for the what we call the paying agent.
33:57
The moment that you have proceeds.
34:00
Why? Because if there is dividend or
34:02
the company is getting acquired and you want to distribute
34:08
things, it is done so smoothly compared to before.
34:13
You don't need to do reconciliation at the bank
34:15
level. You don't need to do anything
34:17
like this. No, you just press a button and
34:19
boom, having the having the smart contract of cap table,
34:23
identifying who owns what exactly and a proceed like it
34:29
takes a few clicks to literally, yeah, give everyone what he's
34:36
supposed to receive. And, and I think that is
34:39
fascinating. And you know, I, I don't know, I
34:43
don't know if you followed the, the news, but we talk a lot
34:46
about tokenized securities these days and people are confusing
34:53
exposure and access. And, and I think that it creates
34:59
some massive question of trust in the market, like who owns
35:04
what. Well, I firmly believe that if
35:07
we bring the right level of source of truth over a cap table
35:13
at every single level of what is done.
35:16
So whether it's the, the company itself or all the SPVS that are
35:21
created one by one, if every single layer rely on the open
35:29
source smart contract of cap tables, you get a chance to have
35:35
a very, a lot of clarity in who owns what when.
35:41
And so you, you, I think you remove one of the concern that
35:46
everyone has right now with the current market.
35:50
Yeah, I love that. So it's speed, ease and
35:54
compliance are big reasons to put it on chain.
35:58
I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
35:59
Are there additional reasons? No.
36:04
But of course like there is a one big one like the
36:08
programmability, the composability.
36:11
I think that the moment that you have a Ledger that is operating
36:14
as the source of truth, it means that the assets are
36:18
programmable. And if they are programmable,
36:21
then you have a whole community of builders that can.
36:26
And and that's where I think there is a huge opportunity for
36:31
for people if they understand that for 10 years Etherium,
36:39
Bitcoin, Solana and all the other ecosystem, they build
36:45
distribution and those distribution are now operated by
36:52
big exchanges, Kraken, Coinbase, binancecrypto.com.
36:57
I mean they are very powerful. I think we are at the moment
37:02
where these programmable assets will start to naturally be
37:08
funneled and transferred induced distribution.
37:14
And that is massive because it gives 2 risk.
37:18
One, like what is effectively distributed, is it the real
37:22
asset or a wrapper? And if it's a wrapper, like what
37:26
are the concern that we should have?
37:28
But two, it's, it's the borderless world that we
37:31
discussed earlier today with history.
37:36
We are reaching the point where there won't be any difference.
37:40
Like you will have the the guy in the countryside in Korea able
37:47
to access simultaneously as the guy in New York City to the
37:53
exact same asset to collect same information, all that from his
37:59
own smartphone. And that is where I think there
38:04
it's game changer because the big national exchanges didn't
38:08
see that coming. They saw that they are their
38:11
own. They add their own mode.
38:14
They had lots of regulatory arbitrage for them, so they
38:18
didn't see that the world could accelerate.
38:20
And they let the crypto players getting bigger and bigger and
38:24
bigger to the point that now when those crypto exchanges
38:27
start to have equities, well, they are literally taking over
38:31
their own market. Yeah, I'm thinking it's amazing.
38:36
I I, I'm thinking about the programmable aspect of it.
38:40
So could you do something like this if you're a start up and
38:43
you're like, hey guys, we all we need to have a big quarter.
38:45
If we clear a million net profit in this quarter, then that's
38:49
going to trigger a distribution based on the cap table and
38:52
you're going to get XYZ per share.
38:54
So that like the second you hit that net profit of $1,000,000,
38:58
boom it it all goes straight to the bank accounts of your team.
39:01
Absolutely. Cool.
39:03
That's the automation that I mentioned for dividends.
39:07
It works for M&A, it works for anything.
39:12
Any, any works both ways. Like it works when you want to
39:15
distribute, but it also works when you want to do capital
39:19
information. Explain to me tomorrow.
39:22
Well, so if tomorrow you say hey, you know what, let's create
39:25
whether you are private or public, let's create new shares.
39:29
Let's allow anyone to participate.
39:32
Here are the terms that anyone can come and in a few clicks,
39:35
they can sign the, the subscription agreement and send
39:39
the phone directly on chain. And, and you see that happening
39:44
like Live Today. It goes through banks and, and
39:48
intermediaries and reconciliation and it takes time
39:52
and, and it's, it's honestly, it's very opaque here at the
39:56
moment that you have this. It's like you have a live admin
39:59
for the for the board to monitor what's going on.
40:03
To monitor the traction, so and 1 stuff that is important
40:07
because when we talk about this, we talk about liquidity of those
40:11
for those collateral. No, no liquidity exists if there
40:18
is no traction. Liquidity is always a track, a
40:21
function of the traction of the businesses always.
40:26
So it can be because the business goes well or because
40:29
the business is on the trend that everyone wants to be in
40:33
whatever the reason, but but attraction is what trigger or
40:37
not interest for any liquid money to come on this market.
40:47
So in a sense it's like you have an open round at all times.
40:50
It's like, oh, if you want to make a contribution, you go to a
40:52
conference. Someone's like, I'm in, man.
40:54
How do I, how do I sign up? You're like right here and on
40:57
their phone they could be like boop, boop, boop, boop.
40:59
They buy a share whatever they're in.
41:02
Exactly. That's where, that's where we
41:04
need to be innovative in the framework, the regulatory
41:09
framework to make this possible without too many friction,
41:14
without too many papers and and document.
41:18
We need to create a frame where you get a bigger valuation boom,
41:22
you need more disclosure because you are exposing more people and
41:26
and assets. You are a smaller company, but
41:30
you want to go public, then let's not put the same
41:33
disclosure as the $100 billion company because it's obvious
41:38
that you don't have the same team and the same ability to pay
41:43
for that disclosures. It doesn't mean that you can't
41:46
have disclosure. No, you need to have some.
41:48
But honestly, what's at stake is very different.
41:51
So we need to always adjust that.
41:54
And if we are able to lower the level of disclosure for the
41:58
smaller companies and increase the level of disclosure for the
42:03
big cap that are private, we get a chance to recreate the
42:09
condition for people going more public.
42:12
Yeah, I love it. I mean it.
42:14
It benefits, you know, startups, it benefits enterprise and it
42:19
takes away lawyers, which to me, you know, anytime you're trying
42:24
to get where you're trying to go, there's a bridge.
42:26
And under every bridge is a troll.
42:29
And that troll is always a lawyer.
42:31
And they're so expensive. And you're like, wow, man, I
42:35
gotta give you for what? And I'm, I'm kidding a little
42:39
bit. I love my lawyer friends for
42:40
sure. Don't get mad at me.
42:42
But in my days with lawyer for the last seven years, you know,
42:45
when I moved from France, so my, I didn't speak well English at
42:49
all. And I had no idea about the US
42:52
securities laws. So imagine me, I'm like in 2018,
42:57
nineteen. The first decision we made at
43:01
Ferment was to hire Collins Belton, who became our first
43:07
legal counsel. And and he told us a lot of the
43:11
things that we had to know. But I remember very well when he
43:15
started it, we were like Colin, we are boss, my Cofaner and I,
43:18
father and husband, We don't want to sleep in jail, never.
43:24
So anything we build has to be in the boundaries.
43:28
It doesn't mean that we don't try to push the boundaries, but
43:31
we want to work in and to automate the work that we can.
43:36
And, and I think that there is a realm like lawyers.
43:40
People keep saying that lawyers are it's over for them between
43:44
AI and automation and all. No, I think, I think we are just
43:48
moving away from the, the the easy part of the legal work that
43:54
they were charging a lot of money for, which was
43:57
documentation. They were literally reproducing
44:00
dogs and dogs and dogs always the same.
44:02
I think we are getting back to advising like real advice where
44:09
you were. Invaluable, which is what you
44:11
want. You don't want 4 lawyers on a
44:14
call and each of them are billing at 450 bucks.
44:17
You're like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
44:18
What? Why are why is it 4 of you?
44:20
You know. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
44:22
I think so it I think there it's a big opportunity for them to be
44:26
creative and to be more product focus because this idea of
44:33
compliance by automation, the only way to do it is to make
44:36
sure that what seems natural for them to do manually can be done
44:42
automatically. Yeah.
44:44
Can be developed by an engineer. Yeah.
44:47
Or an AI engineer. You know, and thank you so much
44:50
for like following this frontier analogy with me because you
44:54
really are on the frontier. And in, in regards to that, I
44:57
would love to know your business model.
44:59
Like when you're thinking about like, oh, we're bringing the cap
45:01
table onto the chain, like how do you charge for it?
45:06
Yeah, that's a very interesting point because we, we are at the
45:12
moment where we are activating the monetization.
45:16
So for years our goal was to say, OK, let's, let's see if it
45:20
works to bring equity on chain and let's build the right rail
45:25
for that to happen, issuance, transaction cancellation,
45:28
whatever. And So what we did is we brought
45:31
1.51 point, 6 billion total on chain and it's accelerating now.
45:40
And the way it's accelerating is as we've been building this
45:44
engine of equity on chain with our own LLM for the last two
45:50
years, we finally reached a point where we are able to
45:55
create instantly a cap table with AI.
46:01
And so as this is supposed to be a commodity, like, you know, no
46:05
one wants to pay for an excellent steroid.
46:08
But if you start doing it with AI, you don't need maybe the
46:12
tons of legal teams and you don't need to spend hours as a
46:17
founder. You just rely on AI.
46:19
So our monetization starts now with the capable AI component
46:25
and tokens. So we'll offer credits and you
46:29
will drop your legal dock. So of course if you have a few
46:32
legal docks, you just created your company, it would be
46:35
totally free. But if you come with a company
46:38
that is much bigger, that was spending 50K100K to Carta every
46:43
year and you just want to stop to pay that much, you would just
46:48
come and drop all your legal dock and, and in a few clicks,
46:53
the AI will regenerate entirely the cap table and the token that
46:58
you consume will be the one that will charge for.
47:01
That's the first basic entry point on the cap table side.
47:07
And then our vision is and that's why we are transfer agent
47:11
and now becoming a broker dealer is that as we don't want to
47:14
charge on the issuance per say on the cap table as a
47:19
subscription model. Our vision has always been on
47:23
the transfer. So whatever the equity will
47:25
move. So for companies that are early
47:29
stage and that will die, probably they won't pay
47:32
anything. But for the company that will
47:34
start or that exists and that will IPO due to the transfer and
47:40
all the mechanics of fees that exist, this is where we monetize
47:44
and make money. Sounds very fair.
47:49
It's, it's the the right way of, of, you know, redistributing
47:53
value. We make your transaction easy.
47:57
We lower the cost of transfer, but we get a cut out of it.
48:01
Yeah, I mean, because you know, especially your first start up,
48:05
you're like learning all this stuff.
48:06
You're like, oh man, what how much does a safe agreement cost?
48:09
And like you got to you're registering in Delaware and all
48:12
this stuff, you're like, dude, I'm just trying to execute.
48:14
So it's like the the less friction you can have just like
48:17
just give me what I need to get this thing poppin and then let's
48:21
move. It is better for founders almost
48:24
100% of the time. And you know, there are two
48:26
things that matter is when you have a company as a funder 1,
48:30
you want to make sure that you always have the money you need.
48:34
And I can tell you, I have countless example of companies
48:38
that died or almost died because for the first years they were
48:42
spending money on a capable vendor.
48:45
And when you think about it like being charged 9K or 15 KA year
48:51
to just have an excel and steroid, I'm like, why would you
48:55
do that? I never spent a dime on that on
48:57
my end and I don't understand. And and if you factor that the
49:02
cost of the lawyer setting up the Carter plus the subscription
49:07
that every year you pay after five years you are close to
49:10
100K. Well, how many companies died
49:13
because they are short 100 KA lot?
49:16
What? Yes, yeah.
49:17
And the second thing also is if you want to raise or if you want
49:21
to discuss with serious investors, you will have the
49:25
question like how is your captible?
49:28
How does it look like? I think it's not normal if in a
49:32
few clicks you're not able to show it to those guys.
49:36
If you wait more than 48 hours for that, it means you have an
49:40
issue and it's a red flag for the investor itself.
49:43
So so I think it's important to also make sure that now as part
49:49
of the game, like you are a founder, you create the company.
49:52
Here is the dogs Boom Capable is up to date and anyone is asking
49:57
me about my cap table. I click boom it sends the cap
50:00
table period. I I hire my first employee.
50:03
I do a stock option plan. I issue equity boom same update.
50:08
I erase my first safe 123510 safe OK fine I drop the safe
50:14
boom cap table update. And that's normal and we
50:18
shouldn't wait we shouldn't need to discuss that.
50:21
I mean, it has been standardized by so many V CS, by so many
50:26
lawyers, percent companies like Game Over.
50:29
It should be free, yeah. I love that and I also love the
50:33
idea of creating the margin for your business based on the
50:36
savings that they're going to get.
50:38
Like the value is innate, but it's like, oh, also, if you use
50:41
these tools, it'll cost you this, but it saves you that, you
50:44
know, so it it just it's it kind of snowballs.
50:47
You're like, oh man, this is amazing.
50:48
And it creates that like, little ball of love in your chest when
50:53
you see you're working with a company that's like, oh, man,
50:55
you, you're making it easier. You're saving me money, you're
50:58
saving me time. And it just seems fair.
51:01
Like when that thing happens, it's kind of a magical moment as
51:05
on the consumer side, you know? Yeah and you're saving them also
51:10
pain concern because when you when you receive a term sheet
51:13
and you have no idea about your captable and your true ownership
51:18
like so many time you sign a dog and then you start digging and
51:21
you have your lawyer calling you and he says hey actually you
51:24
don't own 56 as you saw, but you own 48.
51:29
Yeah, you're like what? How come?
51:31
Well yeah, you remember all the safe you did?
51:33
Well they were not at the same market cap or some other non cap
51:37
1 or some of the big discount. And now with the condition of
51:42
the current market, like you are actually losing 8 more person
51:46
that is sick. People know founder should know
51:50
what they own like live. And that's where I think
51:54
captable matters. We need to bring that back to
51:58
them. And honestly, AI is fantastic
52:01
because the moment that you start not talking to a lawyer
52:05
and back and forth with legal dog, but you start to interact
52:08
with an AI agent and you start to give him the scenario like,
52:13
hey, I'm considering my current cap table.
52:17
I'm receiving a term sheet from this VC with those terms.
52:21
What is what am I supposed to expect?
52:25
Is there any predatory clauses in it?
52:27
Yes. No, like you literally have a
52:30
discussion that most of the time you don't have the time to get
52:33
with your lawyers, but you will have that line.
52:37
And it you can ask them a million questions, they don't
52:39
get upset. Be like, OK, OK, what would Elon
52:42
do? Explain it to me.
52:44
You know, Well, it would stay private, yeah.
52:51
He'd keep it private five more years, then then we'll tease
52:53
everybody that we're going to go nice, amazing.
52:58
Let's talk about that a little bit while we got a couple more
53:00
minutes. You know, we're talking about
53:02
frontiers. And one thing that really struck
53:03
me before we started recording, as you said, you know, we
53:06
labeled, we labeled all this Web 3 blockchain stuff, but you said
53:11
really Web 3 is going to be blockchain plus AI.
53:15
Talk to me about some of the exciting stuff coming down the
53:18
pipe of how these two technologies can really work
53:20
together. Yeah.
53:22
Well, when you think of Web One, Web Two, you see the evolution,
53:26
right? The very centralized things
53:29
initially with Web One and Web 2 was really like the SAS era.
53:35
I and like I said to you, I think that web 3 was a term used
53:40
by crypto company at one at one point, just to, you know, serve
53:45
as a trend or forget the the crypto brand when sometime
53:49
crypto was hard to sell. But the reality is that now when
53:53
we combine the blockchain technology and the AI
53:56
technology, we get a way better things and way better world in
54:02
term of product, in term of interaction, in term of quality
54:06
of things. And that's that's where I think
54:09
we are moving from the Web 2 era to the Web 3.
54:13
And very concrete example is the way we are building ferment like
54:17
I see ferment with the two legs for real like the company's AI
54:21
first all the all the development, all the internal
54:25
discussion, everything is based on AI easily.
54:31
But we don't promote that. We are not you know trying to
54:34
surf on the AI term. We're just trying to ground our
54:39
foundation as a tech company in AI.
54:43
But at the same time we value the distributed Ledger
54:46
technology and all that can be done with that.
54:49
And to the point that yes, we think that blockchain will
54:55
replace most of what we know in term of database because it's a
55:00
novel form of database and probably superior depending on
55:04
the the use case. You want things to be private or
55:07
public, you want things to be live, monitor able by anyone or
55:12
accessible to a very limited numbers of participant.
55:17
But the reality is you want to move away from the whole world
55:21
where everything was very opaque, where it was impossible
55:26
to see anything. And so the the combination of AI
55:30
and web 3 is of AI and crypto is is probably what what makes the
55:35
web three possible today. Yeah, let.
55:38
It go so fun, why is it so? Fun.
55:44
It's new, it's a new revolution, and we could talk about robotics
55:47
and all the things that that are.
55:49
All that stuff. Because yes, because the IT is,
55:53
it is completely part of that new era.
55:57
I don't know if it's if it's Web 3 or not anymore, if we are
56:01
still in the hardware. But yeah, I think, I think the
56:06
world as we know it is changing so fast.
56:08
Like I, I drive Tesla for years now.
56:12
I love cars. But if you ask me, there is no
56:16
way that I would shift to any other car tomorrow.
56:20
And not because of the design, not because of the quality of
56:23
the ride and all. No, just because of the FSD, the
56:27
full self drive. Like it is game changer.
56:31
And and I can't wait to be at the next level.
56:36
But I already feel that I'm so ahead of so many other people
56:40
that are still driving, you know, and, and so, yeah, I mean,
56:47
we see, we are lucky enough to see the world ahead being here
56:52
in the US, accessing most of the tech and all like last week in
56:57
France, they announced that FSD was available.
57:00
It's been 2 years, almost three that I'm driving every day with
57:04
FSD, you know, and, and so that's being ahead.
57:09
That's that's literally killing the competition because when
57:13
Tesla was able to get hundreds of million or maybe billions of
57:19
miles now to train their system well in France, in Europe, they
57:26
didn't have that in their roads, in their streets with their own
57:31
system of signalization, signalization and all.
57:35
Here it's, yeah, it's being ahead and it's being a firm
57:40
believer that technology can bring new wells and new good.
57:47
New fun. Yeah, and new fun as well.
57:52
George, this has been amazing. Thank you so much.
57:54
I feel like I learned so much. I'm going to go back to listen
57:57
to this and take notes. The the company is called
58:01
fairmint.com. George, what's the best place
58:04
for people to connect with you personally online?
58:06
Twitter is probably to go to my My Twitter.
58:09
And all these juries under score DLN.
58:13
Well, I'll put that in the show notes for people listening in.
58:16
And then last question, it's 1849.
58:19
You and me are drinking champagne in Saint Louis and we
58:24
got, we got 2 choices. We go, we travel N to get Beaver
58:29
pelts or we travel South and we try and get gold in California.
58:34
Which one are you choosing? I I choose to go for the gold, I
58:40
don't even blink. I know it's hard to resist that
58:45
gold fever, some real and I I. I don't think it's the gold that
58:48
attracts me, but the belief is. Yeah, totally amazing.
58:54
George, this is so fun. Have a wonderful week.
58:57
Thank you so much. Thank you, Ryan.
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