Latest / Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association / Episode 27: Why are churches drifting away from their main purpose of discipleship? What is the cure? New Segment: Pastor Disaster - The (ALMOST) Missing Finger and MORE: with Chris Reinolds, the Strategic Outsider of Jacksonville, Florida

Transcript

Episode 27: Why are churches drifting away from their main purpose of discipleship? What is the cure? New Segment: Pastor Disaster - The (ALMOST) Missing Finger and MORE: with Chris Reinolds, the Strategic Outsider of Jacksonville, Florida · Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association

0:00
Speaker1: Today, we've got Chris Reynolds, a mission strategist from the Jacksonville,
0:05
Speaker1: Florida area, and he's going to talk to us about the danger of drifting from
0:10
Speaker1: a church's primary purpose of discipleship and what the
0:16
Speaker1: solution to that problem is, which begins with...
0:20
Speaker0: What's the solution? I think the solution is clarity. Let's become clear on
0:25
Speaker0: what God has really called us to do and have some honest conversations about
0:28
Speaker0: that and evaluate, are we doing it?
0:44
Speaker0: Helping churches, leaders, and pastors find health, encouragement,
0:48
Speaker0: practical advice, soul care, and resources that work together to build up your
0:52
Speaker0: local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.
0:55
Speaker0: Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission
0:59
Speaker0: Association, led by Dr. Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry
1:04
Speaker0: and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.
1:07
Speaker1: Hello, everybody, and welcome into episode number 27 of the Every Church Flourishing podcast.
1:14
Speaker1: Today, Pastor Chris Cole and I interview Chris Reynolds, who is the Director of Missions, the
1:20
Speaker1: Mission Strategist, the Strategic Outsider in Jacksonville, Florida,
1:26
Speaker1: and one of the best thinkers on church ministry that we've encountered.
1:32
Speaker1: Some of the things we're going to talk about include why are churches drifting
1:36
Speaker1: away from their main purpose of discipleship? What's the cure for purpose drift?
1:41
Speaker1: And some of the aspects of pastoring that seminary doesn't really prepare you for.
1:47
Speaker1: It was a great discussion. It was a lot of fun meeting with Chris,
1:50
Speaker1: and I think you're going to enjoy it.
1:52
Speaker1: And we talk about several different things. So I think at least one of the topics
1:56
Speaker1: we're going to address today is going to be important for you and edifying for
2:00
Speaker1: you and thought-provoking for you.
2:02
Speaker1: In the beginning of the interview, we're going to tell you all about Chris and
2:06
Speaker1: how to get in touch with him, his podcast, his sub stack. So I'm going to go
2:10
Speaker1: ahead and kick it over to that.
2:12
Speaker1: All right. Today, we welcome in Chris Reynolds, the mission strategist for the
2:17
Speaker1: Northeast Florida Family of Churches, which is kind of located around the Jacksonville
2:21
Speaker1: area there in Nassau County, Duval.
2:24
Speaker1: And it's 100 miles north of the shark attack capital of the world in New Smyrna
2:31
Speaker1: Beach, which is something that I just personally keep up with.
2:34
Speaker1: Chris, I hope you are safe from sharks for the duration of this recording. at least
2:40
Speaker0: Yes, indeed we are. We have to worry about alligators more than sharks here in Florida.
2:45
Speaker1: Yeah, you guys have been in the news big time lately, like three alligator attacks
2:49
Speaker1: in the last week. That's crazy.
2:51
Speaker0: Yeah, I think there just is a running, like something gets picked up once and
2:54
Speaker0: then they have to report every single one.
2:57
Speaker0: They're probably not counting the rednecks that are playing around in their
3:01
Speaker0: pond because that happens probably at least once a week.
3:04
Speaker2: Nice. These are people who are saying things like, hey, hold my beer and watch
3:09
Speaker2: this. Is that what you're saying? I mean, if they're not Southern Baptists,
3:13
Speaker2: right? Because they're saying, hold my Diet Coke and watch this.
3:17
Speaker0: That's pretty accurate. You know, if you search Florida man and then whatever
3:22
Speaker0: date on the calendar year, there is a story behind it.
3:26
Speaker2: We have a mutual friend in Dr. Jimbo Stewart.
3:30
Speaker2: And Jimbo, I've asked him before, I said, Jimbo, are the Florida man stories
3:36
Speaker2: true? He said, every single one. Has that been your experience as well?
3:41
Speaker0: Yes. And I have some family members
3:43
Speaker0: that are Florida men. It's just the nature of having grown up here.
3:48
Speaker2: Well, Chris, we are so glad that you are here with us today.
3:51
Speaker2: We're excited that you're coming to share a bit of your story with us.
3:55
Speaker2: Tell us briefly maybe about your history as a pastor, how you got called into
4:01
Speaker2: ministry, and how you transitioned from being a pastor to becoming the mission
4:05
Speaker2: strategist for the Northeast Florida family of churches.
4:08
Speaker0: So I actually grew up here in Northeast Florida whenever I received the call to ministry.
4:13
Speaker0: And I knew early on in life that I was going to be engaged in ministry in some capacity.
4:18
Speaker0: And so I started serving in my local church and was a children's pastor,
4:22
Speaker0: came on staff at a church here in this region.
4:25
Speaker0: And it wasn't very long before I got a phone call from a megachurch in Tennessee,
4:31
Speaker0: and they wanted me to come and serve as children's pastor there because apparently
4:35
Speaker0: a male children's pastor is a rarity.
4:37
Speaker0: And so I thought this is going to be a great opportunity. And it was.
4:41
Speaker0: It was a great learning opportunity for me.
4:43
Speaker0: The experience gained there being a part of a megachurch running 2,500 every single Sunday.
4:49
Speaker0: We had a 9,000 square foot children's wing and 2,500, like I said,
4:54
Speaker0: running every single week, 350 to 400 kids, two services.
4:59
Speaker0: There was so much happening that I learned a lot, but it was like drinking water
5:03
Speaker0: out of a fire hydrant. Mm-hmm.
5:05
Speaker0: After about two years, it became abundantly clear that God was moving in me
5:11
Speaker0: to move towards pastoral ministry. And I remember praying specifically,
5:16
Speaker0: God, if you want this to happen, you're going to have to be the one that does it.
5:19
Speaker0: Because I don't jump rungs from children's pastor to senior pastor.
5:24
Speaker0: That's just that's not what typically happens. So if this is what you want me
5:28
Speaker0: to do, even though I think it's probably a bad idea, you're going to have to be the one that does it.
5:33
Speaker0: And sure enough, a church in Boone, North Carolina called me to be their senior
5:37
Speaker0: pastor. I was 27 and a half years old, and I stepped into a role that you really
5:44
Speaker0: don't understand the pressures of until you're really there.
5:48
Speaker0: And was there for about four years, arrived and did not realize the environment
5:53
Speaker0: that I was stepping into. It was really a revitalization of sorts.
5:58
Speaker0: And after being there for four years, helping them navigate some significant
6:03
Speaker0: changes and challenges, as well as growing in my own understanding of what that
6:07
Speaker0: role was, I then transitioned to Columbia, South Carolina, where I was for about seven years.
6:13
Speaker0: And that's when I was introduced to a healthy model of associational leadership.
6:17
Speaker0: My mentor, George Bullard, he really showed me what associations could do when
6:23
Speaker0: it came to strengthening the missional movement that could exist in a local church.
6:28
Speaker0: And so while I was serving as a pastor there, helping the church that was in
6:34
Speaker0: transition begin moving in a new direction.
6:38
Speaker0: I really got plugged into the local association. After a couple of years of
6:42
Speaker0: prayerfully seeking God's face on where it was He had wanted me to go next,
6:48
Speaker0: I ended up working for a national consulting agency.
6:51
Speaker0: Working with churches associations, state conventions all across the country.
6:55
Speaker0: And after a little while, my wife and I were like, why are we still here in
7:01
Speaker0: South Carolina when pastoring was no longer my primary role in the local church?
7:06
Speaker0: And I was doing consulting work and I said, well, let's go home.
7:10
Speaker0: And my local association, the one I grew up in, was without an associational
7:15
Speaker0: leader and I'd been working with associations across the country.
7:17
Speaker0: So I said, hey, this is the type of work that I do.
7:20
Speaker0: And at this point, I was doing it on my own. I'd be happy to help in whatever
7:24
Speaker0: capacity that I can assist. I'm not looking for a role, simply saying,
7:29
Speaker0: I want to help because this is my home association.
7:32
Speaker0: And they said, well, we had three interviews today for our next associational
7:36
Speaker0: missionary and none of those three were it. So why don't you send in your resume? And I said,
7:42
Speaker0: I'm really busy. They said, well, will you pray about it? Absolutely.
7:45
Speaker0: So that following Monday, I sent them my resume.
7:48
Speaker0: Come to find out, they said that before they started those interviews,
7:52
Speaker0: they prayed as a group, as a search team, dear Lord, before the end of the day,
7:57
Speaker0: please make it abundantly clear who you want here in this role for this next
8:02
Speaker0: season for our association.
8:05
Speaker0: And they had those interviews and they were like, man, none of them are it.
8:08
Speaker0: And then I called. And so it was just a total God thing.
8:11
Speaker0: And so I get to do what it is that I love doing, working with churches,
8:15
Speaker0: working with pastors, but I get to do it here in the place that I grew up.
8:19
Speaker2: That is way cool. That's such a great intro to your story, Chris,
8:24
Speaker2: and to how God's been at work in your life.
8:26
Speaker2: For just the context here, most of our churches spread out all across California, Central Coast.
8:33
Speaker2: Like when you gave some of those numbers for the church you served in in Tennessee,
8:38
Speaker2: We have no church that would meet that reality.
8:42
Speaker2: Like, I don't know. Chase, do you know of a church that's got a 9,000 square
8:45
Speaker2: foot children's facility?
8:47
Speaker2: I mean, most of our churches don't have more than, you know,
8:51
Speaker2: 3,500, 4,000 square feet is a big facility for a lot of our churches and our association.
8:57
Speaker2: So it's definitely not a reality that a lot of our pastors in our churches hang
9:03
Speaker2: out in and live in. So it's quite remarkable to hear that story of how God's
9:08
Speaker2: been at work there with you in that way.
9:11
Speaker0: It's an anomaly, I think, anywhere
9:13
Speaker0: because that group is really only about 8%, if that, 8% of the total.
9:21
Speaker0: And so what it allowed me to do, though, was gain experience in an environment
9:27
Speaker0: in which a lot of people don't have experience in and to understand the dynamics
9:32
Speaker0: that take place there. Because here's the reality.
9:35
Speaker0: I served in that church. That's the largest church I've ever served in.
9:38
Speaker0: After that, I went to 150-member church. And then I went to a church that was
9:42
Speaker0: running 60 in regular worship attendance.
9:45
Speaker0: And then even in that transition, that church ended up merging in with another
9:50
Speaker0: church just because of transitions and changes that had to happen because they
9:55
Speaker0: had adopted the Field of Dreams mentality
9:57
Speaker0: of when it came to building a building, if you build it, they will come and people never showed up.
10:02
Speaker0: And so they had this monstrous deferred maintenance debt hanging over their head.
10:06
Speaker0: So it's not the reality of any most other places, but it has given me that experience
10:12
Speaker0: to where I can actually connect with pastors and church leaders and other staff
10:16
Speaker0: members and understand what it is that they're going through.
10:19
Speaker1: Yeah, well, tell us about your podcast and your sub stack and the kind of things
10:23
Speaker1: you talk about and write about, Chris.
10:25
Speaker0: So the podcast is really trying to reveal resources that exist here in our contextual environment.
10:34
Speaker0: So it's Kingdom Over Turf, and our hope is really to get pastors on there or
10:40
Speaker0: church leaders or ministry leaders or those that are serving in some way
10:45
Speaker0: that can be an asset to the local church.
10:49
Speaker0: That can be a benefit to a pastor in that context.
10:53
Speaker0: Because what I have found is that most of the time, it's not so much the.
10:58
Speaker0: Centralized associational office that is the harbinger of all of the necessary
11:04
Speaker0: information for a pastor or a church leader. Rather, it's somebody down the street.
11:09
Speaker0: It's that local church leader that is experiencing the same thing that that
11:14
Speaker0: pastor that is in a struggle mode, that somebody else down the street has already
11:18
Speaker0: experienced it. They know what it looks like to walk through it.
11:21
Speaker0: And so really, I see my role from an associational standpoint.
11:25
Speaker0: And then this is the podcast is really just an opportunity for,
11:29
Speaker0: but as a connector where if I have a conversation with a pastor and they say,
11:33
Speaker0: man, I'm really going through this or I don't know what to do about the staffing
11:36
Speaker0: issue or, hey, we're struggling to with clarity and where it is that God is leading us next.
11:42
Speaker0: Or we're really hitting this barrier whenever it comes to our education ministry.
11:47
Speaker0: Well, I've had enough conversations with enough people to be able to say,
11:51
Speaker0: hey, I know a pastor just down the road from you.
11:53
Speaker0: Let me connect you to him. And so my hope is through the podcast, it's to
11:58
Speaker0: have those conversations in that form, not to say, hey, come and listen to my
12:03
Speaker0: podcast, but so that somebody that goes and listen to it, they will say,
12:07
Speaker0: hey, that's somebody I could reach out to because I'm feeling the same thing
12:10
Speaker0: or I'm experiencing that same thing or I am going through that as well.
12:14
Speaker0: And so that's a resource that they can connect with. The substack for me is
12:19
Speaker0: a desire to share from a strategic outsider standpoint.
12:24
Speaker0: For those that don't know,
12:27
Speaker0: Back in, I guess, 2015, maybe it was a little bit earlier than that,
12:31
Speaker0: Rick Wheeler headed a task force that was put together through SB Cal,
12:37
Speaker0: which is Southern Baptist Conference of Associational Leadership.
12:40
Speaker0: And Rick Wheeler at the time was part of the JBA, the Jacksonville Baptist Association.
12:45
Speaker0: Jacksonville Baptist Association is now First Coast Churches,
12:48
Speaker0: and that's just my neighbor.
12:50
Speaker0: Rick is now a part of Stewardship Simplified there in Jacksonville, heading that up.
12:54
Speaker0: But while while he was there at JBA, he.
12:57
Speaker0: Led a task force to change the name and to create a name that really reflected
13:04
Speaker0: the role of an associational missionary or a director of missions that it's
13:09
Speaker0: sometimes still called.
13:10
Speaker0: And what they came up with was a mission strategist, associational mission strategist.
13:16
Speaker0: And the definition that they used is they really came as a strategic outsider.
13:20
Speaker0: And so I like the definition of things because I find them so much simpler than
13:25
Speaker0: the complicated of, well, what is a mission strategist?
13:28
Speaker0: So I'd just rather call it the definition. So as a strategic outsider,
13:32
Speaker0: I can walk into an environment, a church, a place, I can walk into an experience
13:36
Speaker0: and I can see it from a different perspective because I don't live there.
13:39
Speaker0: And so that's the objective with the Substack is to say, hey,
13:42
Speaker0: pastor, church, church leader, this is what I'm observing.
13:46
Speaker0: This is what I'm seeing. This is an outsider's perspective that it's really
13:50
Speaker0: hard for you to see when you're in the inside, you're in the day-to-day,
13:54
Speaker0: you're experiencing it over and over again.
13:57
Speaker0: And so that's kind of the focus of both of those.
14:00
Speaker1: Well, that's awesome. Resourcing pastors is a very needed thing. I went to seminary,
14:06
Speaker1: I know Christopher went to seminary and I had a good experience in seminary.
14:10
Speaker1: I worked for New Orleans Baptist for almost 10 years.
14:14
Speaker1: I'm a fan of seminary, but I would say probably 90 to 95%. I don't know.
14:19
Speaker1: That might be a little high. 90% of my seminary experience was all about Greek,
14:24
Speaker1: Hebrew, learning the Bible, theology.
14:27
Speaker1: And it's great stuff. And I'm still into that stuff. But a very small percentage
14:32
Speaker1: of it is about how to pastor a church and how to run a church.
14:35
Speaker1: And all of these nitty gritty things. And a lot of that stuff you're covering
14:39
Speaker1: on your podcast, Kingdom Over Turf. And look, I know bylaws are not the most
14:45
Speaker1: fascinating and glorious topic to talk about.
14:48
Speaker1: But earlier this year, you had an attorney, Gary Eldale on that was talking about bylaws.
14:53
Speaker1: And I think probably this is an incredibly important thing that pastors and
14:59
Speaker1: church leaders don't think about, don't talk about a lot, But probably we should
15:04
Speaker1: be a whole lot more aware of what our bylaws say.
15:08
Speaker1: In fact, our church is kind of going through this process right now.
15:12
Speaker1: We just recently discovered, I discovered going through our bylaws looking for
15:16
Speaker1: something else that we're supposed to be meeting for our quarterly business
15:21
Speaker1: meetings on a particular Wednesday night.
15:24
Speaker1: And we're actually doing those quarterly business meetings on a Sunday morning,
15:28
Speaker1: which you know, probably we're not going to go to jail or be locked up by the
15:33
Speaker1: FBI for that. But if we say we're going to do something, we should do something. So
15:38
Speaker1: Tell us a little bit about what you learned from Gary and what pastors and church
15:42
Speaker1: leaders should be thinking about their bylaws as kind of a warm-up question
15:47
Speaker1: before we get into deeper waters.
15:49
Speaker0: Yeah, and that's one of the benefits is there are a lot of things from a,
15:53
Speaker0: if you're an associational missionary or mission strategist,
15:55
Speaker0: you become a generalist to where you know a lot of things, a little bit about a lot of things.
16:01
Speaker0: And that's where you can tap into experts and say, hey, we need you to really explore this deeply.
16:07
Speaker0: And the benefit of the conversation with Gary is that he shared those necessary
16:11
Speaker0: realities that your bylaws, and I love the way that he puts it,
16:15
Speaker0: it's kind of like a safety blanket.
16:17
Speaker0: It is this warm blanket that it goes around you from a protection standpoint.
16:22
Speaker0: If you don't have accurate bylaws that reflect what you're actually doing and
16:30
Speaker0: your governance procedures and expectations, that is a recipe for disaster.
16:36
Speaker0: Because those bylaws are a protection for the church.
16:40
Speaker0: Because if anything is ever brought to the court system, anything,
16:45
Speaker0: the first thing that a judge is gonna do is say, what do the bylaws of that
16:51
Speaker0: church say pertaining to this matter?
16:53
Speaker0: Because the bylaws are what dictate what's happening and what is supposed to happen.
16:58
Speaker0: And if you haven't been abiding by your bylaws, well, then
17:02
Speaker0: any claim that somebody makes may be in question and put the church at risk
17:08
Speaker0: because the judge says, well, you haven't been abiding by your bylaws in any
17:12
Speaker0: other place, in any other way.
17:14
Speaker0: You've not been upholding them. You can't even uphold them for some churches
17:17
Speaker0: because they don't have the necessary requirement of members in some situations.
17:21
Speaker0: And therefore, why should we adhere to this when you've not been following anywhere else?
17:26
Speaker0: And then they can go by another standard and it may not be ruled in your favor.
17:31
Speaker0: So those bylaws really become a pivotal, pivotal resource for churches from
17:36
Speaker0: a protectionary standpoint.
17:37
Speaker2: Yeah. And I think we resonate so much on so many similar ministry philosophies and values.
17:44
Speaker2: And here at GCA, you know, that's one of the big things that we spend time working
17:48
Speaker2: with churches on, too, is helping them say, hey, where are you not implementing
17:52
Speaker2: and living out of those bylaws and operating really out of your design?
17:57
Speaker2: You know, it's one of the areas that we try to talk to churches about,
18:00
Speaker2: say, listen, this is you functioning within the design that you have,
18:04
Speaker2: and that's a core component of just living with integrity, operating within your design.
18:10
Speaker2: I want to jump back for a second into the term strategic outsider and relate
18:17
Speaker2: that to the idea of living out of our design.
18:21
Speaker2: You wrote a piece recently that I just thought was phenomenal,
18:25
Speaker2: Chris, on how God has shaped you personally as a strategic outsider.
18:31
Speaker2: It's just a phenomenal piece there because I think I find that as I'm coaching
18:35
Speaker2: and encouraging and trying to work with pastors, a lot of them don't actually
18:40
Speaker2: know how they have been designed in order to
18:44
Speaker2: Live and minister with really a sense of wholeness and integrity.
18:49
Speaker2: So, Chris, reflecting on that article, you wrote your observations about how
18:54
Speaker2: God has shaped you and prepared you and formed you to be this strategic outsider
18:59
Speaker2: and why that resonates with you.
19:01
Speaker2: What would you say to pastors about learning and exploring how they've been
19:06
Speaker2: formed and discerning how that impacts them in discerning where and how they
19:12
Speaker2: should be serving within the kingdom of God?
19:14
Speaker0: No, I think that's great. So, one, I don't think that was an actual article.
19:18
Speaker0: I think it was something that I had posted on Facebook. Oh, there you go.
19:21
Speaker0: It was one of my stories on Facebook. So if Chase goes looking for it,
19:25
Speaker0: that's the place to find it. There you go. All right.
19:29
Speaker0: The experience that I had in ministry was incredibly difficult because I've
19:32
Speaker0: never been wired like the typical pastor.
19:35
Speaker0: And I always felt like I was less than or that I was messing it up.
19:40
Speaker0: Because, yeah, I went to Bible college. I went to seminary. I've got three degrees.
19:44
Speaker0: I've got bachelor's degree in biblical studies. So I've done all of the things
19:49
Speaker0: that were required of me to do. But whenever I got into the role,
19:52
Speaker0: like Chase said, it was like, what is this?
19:54
Speaker0: This is not preaching Greek and Hebrew and hermeneutics. And this is not open
19:59
Speaker0: the Bible and say, thus saith the Lord. And all the people go,
20:02
Speaker0: oh, wow, thank goodness.
20:04
Speaker0: You're the most intelligent person I've ever heard of. I can't believe nobody
20:07
Speaker0: ever told me that. Let's go and do that thing.
20:10
Speaker0: It's not that. Anybody in seminary that thinks it is that, I'm sorry.
20:14
Speaker0: That's just not how it works.
20:16
Speaker0: There is leadership that is required. There are tactical steps that are required.
20:20
Speaker0: There's the very real reality that there are lost people that believe themselves
20:26
Speaker0: to be saved, that are members of your church, that are on your deacon board, that,
20:32
Speaker0: God forbid that they are on your elder board and they are lost.
20:38
Speaker0: There are sweet little old ladies that sit on the right side of the sanctuary
20:44
Speaker0: in the very back who believe themselves to be saved that will straight up tell
20:48
Speaker0: you, I just hope I've done enough to get into heaven.
20:52
Speaker0: And they had been there in that church for over 50 years. That's the reality.
20:57
Speaker0: And so for me, coming out of seminary, beginning to pastor, beginning to lead,
21:03
Speaker0: I struggled because the hand holding at somebody's bedside didn't fuel me.
21:09
Speaker0: And I felt like, is something wrong with me? That's not what fueled my soul.
21:13
Speaker0: That's not, did I do it? Absolutely, 100%.
21:16
Speaker0: But it just didn't energize me. Now, standing in front of.
21:21
Speaker0: A room of people who are seeking clarity on
21:25
Speaker0: what God is calling them to do in the places they live, work,
21:29
Speaker0: and play, and how they can execute it well under the umbrella of what God is
21:35
Speaker0: doing at the church, that is something that's energizing.
21:38
Speaker0: That's encouraging. Helping a staff team navigate what the future looks like,
21:42
Speaker0: that's encouraging. That's energizing.
21:44
Speaker0: And so for the longest time, I didn't realize that that's just how God had wired
21:48
Speaker0: me. That's how he put me together.
21:49
Speaker0: In about 2020 or so, I went through a process that my friends have really fine-tuned
21:55
Speaker0: this process, and it's around personal calling and clarity.
21:59
Speaker0: It's my friends Shane Stacy and Dave Rhodes at Clarity House.
22:03
Speaker0: It's a process called handcrafted calling, incredible resource.
22:06
Speaker0: I would encourage any pastor or church leader to consider it,
22:10
Speaker0: or even lay member that really wants to discover what's their Ephesians 2.10 calling in life.
22:15
Speaker0: Because I went through this journey and I realized that's just not how God has wired me.
22:19
Speaker0: I had spent so much of my life trying to help people walk in greater intimacy
22:25
Speaker0: and relationship with Christ that they didn't want to. And yeah,
22:28
Speaker0: they were church members.
22:29
Speaker0: They just didn't want to go any further than they had gone. and it was eating
22:33
Speaker0: me alive. And so when I went through that process and I realized that's not
22:37
Speaker0: what I was made, some people are made to do that and they do it very well.
22:40
Speaker0: That's just not what he had made me to do. When I realized that and I began
22:43
Speaker0: to reframe my actions and started investing in those that did wanna move forward
22:48
Speaker0: with positive progress and greater intimacy in their relationship with Christ
22:51
Speaker0: and helped them move forward, it helped the health of the whole.
22:54
Speaker0: All of a sudden we started seeing dramatic shifts and movement and I felt better
22:59
Speaker0: about what it was that I was doing.
23:01
Speaker0: And so that really helped fuel me as I began to step into the associational
23:07
Speaker0: role and that strategic outsider standpoint, because my tagline for the strategic
23:11
Speaker0: outsider is see what's next.
23:13
Speaker0: I want to help somebody see what's next, whatever it is, and however it is that
23:18
Speaker0: God is leading. I want to help you see what's next.
23:20
Speaker2: Man, that is so good. So rich.
23:22
Speaker1: Well, tell us a little bit, as long as we're calling audibles,
23:25
Speaker1: tell us a little bit about this handcrafted calling process from Clarity House.
23:30
Speaker1: I'm looking at their website right now.
23:32
Speaker1: I just did in a 10 second glance, I'm thinking this is a way for a pastor or
23:38
Speaker1: church leader, something that goes beyond like a spiritual gift assessment that
23:43
Speaker1: goes beyond the personality types or whatever
23:47
Speaker1: and helps you dig deeper into knowing who you are and to understanding your calling.
23:52
Speaker1: Am I barking up the right tree there? Is that what this process is about?
23:55
Speaker0: It is. It is well beyond a spiritual gifts assessment. It is about helping people
24:01
Speaker0: discover their God-unique calling in life. And how do they reframe that?
24:06
Speaker0: So one of the struggles...
24:08
Speaker0: Oftentimes whenever it comes to the church world is people say,
24:11
Speaker0: I want to serve, I want to engage in some way.
24:13
Speaker0: And we can take, you know, fortune 500 CEOs, or we can take chief marketing
24:19
Speaker0: officers, or we can take the plumber next door. And we say to all of them,
24:23
Speaker0: okay, yeah, I need you to hold this door and say hello to people as they come in.
24:28
Speaker0: Now, don't get me wrong, that's absolutely essential. And I think that that's a great resource
24:32
Speaker0: for somebody that wants to serve. However, if somebody's wanting to go deeper
24:36
Speaker0: in understanding God's unique calling on their life and how they become,
24:41
Speaker0: more obedient to the great commission and by means of the great commandment,
24:47
Speaker0: it's probably not gonna be through just hold this door.
24:51
Speaker0: So it's not a spiritual inventory. It's not a gifts test. It's really a,
24:55
Speaker0: how do I begin to look at the world through the lens of how God has wired me
25:01
Speaker0: so that I can carry out the work that God has called me to do every single day.
25:05
Speaker0: I haven't done this in a while, so it's a struggle for me to remember the math.
25:10
Speaker0: But I used to talk about Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000-hour rule.
25:15
Speaker0: In his book, Outliers, I listened to that book in 2018, 2019,
25:20
Speaker0: and that's when I began to do the math.
25:22
Speaker0: So the disciples, they were with Jesus for three years.
25:25
Speaker0: If they spent intentionally 10 hours a day, which according to what we can see
25:30
Speaker0: with scripture, They were pretty much with him for three years nonstop.
25:33
Speaker0: But if they spent 10 hours a day for three years and concentrated trying to
25:38
Speaker0: grow in greater intimacy and relationship with Christ and understanding what
25:41
Speaker0: it is he had called them to do, do you know how many hours they reach at the
25:45
Speaker0: end of those three years?
25:46
Speaker2: Right at 10,000.
25:47
Speaker1: Just over 10,000.
25:49
Speaker0: Just over 10,000. And then I began to do the math on the average churchgoer.
25:53
Speaker0: How much is the average churchgoer investing in growing a greater intimacy and
25:59
Speaker0: relationship with Christ?
26:00
Speaker0: On a weekly basis. And I said, well, if I said three hours a week intentionally,
26:06
Speaker0: so this is including Sunday morning service, intentionally doing it three hours
26:10
Speaker0: a week, how long would it take them to get
26:14
Speaker0: to 10 000 hours i want to think it was something along the line i can't do the
26:18
Speaker0: math maybe you've got a computer in front of you could do the math it was something
26:20
Speaker0: along the lines it was over 70 years oh yeah on average i would probably put
26:25
Speaker0: it close to an hour which you're looking at about.
26:28
Speaker0: 192 years for them to reach that 10 000 hour rule
26:31
Speaker0: and we wonder why we have such a problem whenever it comes to spiritual growth
26:36
Speaker0: and development in the local church and so the purpose of the handcrafted calling
26:40
Speaker0: what i really see the sweet spot being is that when people understand their
26:43
Speaker0: Ephesians 2.10 calling.
26:45
Speaker0: Now it's not about what they do at church.
26:47
Speaker0: It's about how they're living their life and how they're carrying out the great
26:51
Speaker0: commission by means of the great commandment in their everyday life.
26:54
Speaker0: And now they're framing everything through the lens of this is how I glorify God and make disciples.
27:00
Speaker0: So for me, simplified to two words, it's discovering next.
27:04
Speaker0: I want to help you discover what's next in God's and how God is working in your
27:08
Speaker0: life. Now, for some cases, it may just be a profession of faith.
27:12
Speaker0: In others, it may be an active faith.
27:15
Speaker0: It may be taking a next step in some venture or some opportunity,
27:20
Speaker0: but I want to help somebody discover next. If I'm helping them discover next,
27:23
Speaker0: then I'm living into that calling and I'm framing everything that to lens.
27:27
Speaker0: And so as people discover their unique calling and they begin to live it out,
27:31
Speaker0: it changes how they interact with the world. And especially if they see it as,
27:35
Speaker0: hey, this is how God has called and equipped me to make disciples and glorify
27:39
Speaker0: him in everything that I do.
27:40
Speaker0: That's a long answer to a short question, but I feel like it's helpful to kind of illustrate that out.
27:46
Speaker2: No, I think that's, yeah, I was just going to say, I think that's so good, Chris.
27:50
Speaker2: I think that this, you know, ties into some of the questions we wanted to talk
27:55
Speaker2: with you about today, specifically as we think about the idea
28:01
Speaker2: of understanding how we are designed, God's work of calling us to be and become
28:06
Speaker2: disciples and then to make disciples, right?
28:10
Speaker2: Right. Which I know is a great passion of yours as well.
28:14
Speaker2: So maybe we could talk today a little bit about the drift in a lot of our churches
28:19
Speaker2: away from the core function of making disciples and how that happens.
28:26
Speaker2: How do churches end up unintentionally? I've never met a church yet that's told
28:30
Speaker2: me, hey, we intentionally drifted away from making disciples as our primary calling.
28:36
Speaker2: Now, maybe they're out there, but I haven't found that church yet that's at
28:40
Speaker2: least vocalized that that way to say, hey, we just decided we gave up on disciple making, right?
28:46
Speaker2: They would all tell you, you know, in good Southern Baptist churches way,
28:49
Speaker2: you know, I can find most of them can recite the Great Commission.
28:53
Speaker2: But living it out and understanding how do churches drift away from their purpose?
29:01
Speaker2: And what are some of the key things that maybe take the place of those churches' purpose?
29:07
Speaker2: Is it just an activity-first mindset, prioritizing programming?
29:12
Speaker2: How do we shift into that mentality? And then maybe what is the cure for that?
29:18
Speaker0: So let me answer the first thing. How does it happen or how did it happen?
29:23
Speaker0: There's a quote by Peter Drucker that I really like, and I had to look it up
29:27
Speaker0: earlier because I wanted to make sure that I got it right. But he said that
29:30
Speaker0: the most valuable insights lie in the hardest things to measure.
29:35
Speaker0: And I feel like in the church world, specifically for us as Southern Baptists,
29:39
Speaker0: but also just churches in general, we have set the metric of success really,
29:47
Speaker0: really about the easy things to count. Yeah.
29:50
Speaker0: It's about the budgets. It's about the butts in the seats. And it's about the buildings.
29:55
Speaker0: Those three elements have really defined the measures of success.
30:00
Speaker0: What's your operating budget at your church? How many people attend your church?
30:04
Speaker0: And what type of building do you have? How large is that?
30:07
Speaker0: If you go to, we just had the Southern Baptist Convention.
30:10
Speaker0: If you were attending there and you were to be a fly on the wall or to be a
30:14
Speaker0: creep standing in the hallway, just overhearing conversations,
30:20
Speaker0: I have no doubt at some point, hundreds, if not thousands of times,
30:24
Speaker0: someone said, how many people attend your church?
30:27
Speaker0: What's attendance like? Because it's an easy metric.
30:31
Speaker0: But you multiply that over time, And that becomes the standard.
30:35
Speaker0: Even our own reporting, the ACP, the annual church profile, the metrics are
30:41
Speaker0: around all of those things. Let's count how many baptisms, how many are in Sunday
30:45
Speaker0: school, how many are in worship, how many were in vacation Bible school.
30:49
Speaker0: It's all around those numbers.
30:52
Speaker0: And don't get me wrong, numbers are not a bad thing. Numbers are good things.
30:56
Speaker0: It's indicative of, hey, we should be measuring these things.
30:59
Speaker0: These are metrics that are important.
31:01
Speaker0: But when those become the standard, those become the expectation of success,
31:06
Speaker0: that's when we're going to start running into a problem.
31:08
Speaker0: The point of Peter Drucker's statement that the most valuable insights lie in
31:14
Speaker0: the things that are hardest to measure is that we should be measuring those
31:18
Speaker0: hard things and trying to measure those hard things.
31:21
Speaker0: Where are we seeing life transformation at?
31:24
Speaker0: Marriages being restored, fathers leading their families, caring well.
31:29
Speaker0: Where do we see people that are engaging in their workplaces and they're creating
31:34
Speaker0: space for disciple making in their everyday life?
31:38
Speaker0: Where do we see those things happening? Let's begin to measure those things.
31:41
Speaker0: And that can't be done on a wide level a lot of the times, but it should be
31:46
Speaker0: thought about and thought about hard on a local level and thought about in individual context and
31:52
Speaker0: be brought into the conversation that's happening around the tables when pastors
31:56
Speaker0: meet together and when church leaders are gathering.
31:59
Speaker0: What are the things that we are measuring as a church? And I think that that
32:03
Speaker0: will begin to shift the conversation significantly.
32:07
Speaker1: Along those lines, how can churches and pastors
32:11
Speaker1: kind of slide into or drift into that machine kind of mentality that you talked
32:18
Speaker1: about, where the whole purpose is to recruit people,
32:23
Speaker1: no matter who they are, no matter what their giftings are, no matter what their
32:27
Speaker1: abilities are, into positions that kind of keep the machine of the church running?
32:32
Speaker1: How can we drift into that mentality and keep drifting over and over away from
32:40
Speaker1: a Great Commission disciple-making mentality when
32:45
Speaker1: it just seems like that's all Southern Baptists talk about?
32:48
Speaker1: We almost want to change the name of our convention to Great Commission Baptist.
32:52
Speaker1: So what is it about church leadership that causes that drift away from
32:58
Speaker1: these primary things that we're called to? Why do we keep sliding down the same
33:03
Speaker1: hill over and over again?
33:05
Speaker0: I don't think it's any one specific thing. And that's where the problem comes
33:08
Speaker0: in. It would be nice to be able to find a switch to be able to go click.
33:11
Speaker0: We turn that off. It's taken care of. But it's not one specific thing.
33:15
Speaker0: And it happens at a grassroots level. It happens on an individual level.
33:18
Speaker0: So let me take just for my own experience.
33:21
Speaker0: I come into a church. There is a level of expectation when you walk into that
33:25
Speaker0: church of this is how we do church.
33:28
Speaker0: This is what church is supposed to look like. And that expectation level is
33:32
Speaker0: built upon what's been done in the past.
33:34
Speaker0: It's built upon what they're seeing at other places.
33:37
Speaker0: It's based on what has worked at other places. It's based on what works here
33:42
Speaker0: and based on the community context.
33:44
Speaker0: So it's based on all of those factors. But you come in and there's that expectation
33:49
Speaker0: level of this is what we do, or this is what we should be doing.
33:53
Speaker0: And it's also been pushed down. In the late 80s, early 90s, we became very programmatic heavy.
34:01
Speaker0: We had Lifeway and Lifeway was pushing out materials and everybody was doing
34:05
Speaker0: the same vacation Bible school and everybody was doing the same discipleship,
34:09
Speaker0: making material, let me clarify.
34:11
Speaker0: They were doing the same programmatic disciple training material.
34:16
Speaker0: It wasn't necessarily that they were making disciples, but they were just educating
34:19
Speaker0: people were using the same material and calling it discipleship.
34:23
Speaker0: Were disciples made in it?
34:24
Speaker0: I have no doubt. But what was the emphasis? The emphasis was more towards here,
34:29
Speaker0: we have a training center instead of it being a, we have a teaching center instead
34:33
Speaker0: of it being a training center.
34:35
Speaker0: And so it's not one specific set of circumstances.
34:39
Speaker0: I think it's a combination of all those things. And so as a pastor,
34:41
Speaker0: you come in and you have all these expectations laid on you.
34:45
Speaker0: Also, you're the professional. You're the one that's called to execute.
34:49
Speaker0: You're the one that's called to do it.
34:51
Speaker0: You don't do those things. What's the consequence in some cases?
34:55
Speaker0: The consequence is people leave the church. That's best case scenario.
34:58
Speaker0: Worst case scenario is they say, you know what? We don't like you anymore. It's time for you to go.
35:04
Speaker0: We need to find a new one who will do things the way that we want to do them.
35:07
Speaker0: So there is a pressure that exists there, And that's hard to contend with.
35:12
Speaker0: And because that's hard to contend with, there is this justification,
35:16
Speaker0: and then it just becomes, this is what we do.
35:18
Speaker0: This is what I have to do for a little while. This is what I have to do in this season.
35:21
Speaker0: This is what we're having to do right now. And eventually it becomes,
35:24
Speaker0: this is just what we do, because any desire to try to change things is met with sort of resistance.
35:31
Speaker0: And when we meet that resistance, there are consequences. And so we have a tendency
35:35
Speaker0: to avoid it. And then we don't have the energy to be able to contribute towards
35:39
Speaker0: the lasting change, towards the small things.
35:41
Speaker0: If you're running so many programs as a pastor and a church leader that you
35:45
Speaker0: don't have the capacity in your schedule or in your own energy level to make
35:50
Speaker0: disciples, then it's just never gonna change.
35:53
Speaker0: You can say you wanna make disciples, but you're so exhausted that you don't
35:57
Speaker0: have the capacity to be able to do it. And so I think it's a combination of
36:01
Speaker0: all of those factors. What's the solution?
36:03
Speaker0: I think the solution is clarity. Let's become clear on what God has really called
36:08
Speaker0: us to do and have some honest conversations about that and evaluate, are we doing it?
36:13
Speaker0: I used to ask a church four questions. Now I've got to try to remember the four
36:16
Speaker0: questions. This wasn't on our list of things. And now let me try to remember
36:20
Speaker0: those four questions. It's been a couple of years.
36:21
Speaker0: Four questions were, whose church is this? That was the first question.
36:25
Speaker2: Good question.
36:26
Speaker0: Whose church is this? And we can go to Scripture because of that.
36:29
Speaker0: And we see in Scripture that this is Christ's church.
36:31
Speaker0: And we point that out in Scripture. If this is Christ's church,
36:34
Speaker0: then what is it that he has called us to do?
36:36
Speaker0: Then we go to the Great Commission by means of the Great Commandment.
36:38
Speaker0: Now, let's begin to evaluate what?
36:41
Speaker0: What it is that we're currently doing in light of the Great Commission and the Great Commandment.
36:45
Speaker0: Let's list all of the things that we are presently doing and say,
36:49
Speaker0: how is this helping us glorify Christ in the local church and accomplish the
36:53
Speaker0: Great Commission by means of the Great Commandment?
36:55
Speaker0: And if it's not, now let's begin to the last question, what are we going to do about it?
37:01
Speaker0: Because if there are certain things that are helping us accomplish the mission
37:04
Speaker0: that God has given us, then we need to either adjust those things or we need to stop doing them.
37:09
Speaker0: We need to adjust them to where they help us accomplish that,
37:11
Speaker0: or we need to stop doing them entirely so that we can create space to actually
37:15
Speaker0: start making disciples.
37:16
Speaker0: But let me tell you, that's a very, very uncomfortable situation because we
37:21
Speaker0: have sacred cows that exist in churches and programs that this is what we've
37:25
Speaker0: always done. And so it's hard.
37:26
Speaker0: And for some pastors and church leaders, they want to avoid that sort of confrontation.
37:32
Speaker0: And I'm not bashing those that do avoid that conversation. It comes with scars
37:38
Speaker0: when you begin to face it head on.
37:40
Speaker0: Especially if you're just trying to keep your head above water,
37:42
Speaker0: it's really, really hard to step in realizing that's what you're going to face.
37:46
Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. Well, stories are really powerful. And I'm going to ask both
37:52
Speaker1: of you guys kind of a story along these lines.
37:55
Speaker1: Anonymize the story sort of as much as you want to.
37:58
Speaker1: And we can use negative examples or positive examples because both of those can be very powerful.
38:04
Speaker1: Are either of you aware of churches who either A, recognize this kind of drift
38:10
Speaker1: away from great commandment informed, great commission disciple making and turned around or B,
38:18
Speaker1: failed to recognize that they had gotten so into the machine mentality that
38:24
Speaker1: basically it just grinded the church to a utter halt and ceasing.
38:31
Speaker1: So do you guys have negative examples or positive examples of churches that face this issue?
38:40
Speaker2: I'll tell you what, a story that came to mind just while you were asking the
38:43
Speaker2: question that ties so well, I think, into what Chris was just talking about is in one of our
38:52
Speaker2: GCA Renew churches, I remember well this morning when I was teaching a church about
39:01
Speaker2: having a missional mindset to prayer.
39:04
Speaker2: It was the focus, right? And sitting in the back of the room was one of the
39:09
Speaker2: great old saints, the old lady that really does know Jesus and has known him.
39:13
Speaker2: And she's 84 years old, right? And but while I'm teaching, I could tell she's
39:18
Speaker2: getting uncomfortable.
39:19
Speaker2: And then I see a look cross her face. And I've been pastoring,
39:23
Speaker2: you know, so long now I can tell, oh, I've crossed a line.
39:27
Speaker2: I've made someone upset.
39:30
Speaker2: In some way. And I could tell this look on her face. She is not happy.
39:34
Speaker2: She is not happy about something. So I finished my my little teaching time and
39:39
Speaker2: I ask, of course, you know, do you have questions?
39:41
Speaker2: Her hand goes up and I'm like, all right, you know, I'm waiting for it.
39:45
Speaker2: I'm waiting for the blast because that's what I'm used to a lot of times is,
39:49
Speaker2: you know, when you try to bring people to the clarity that Chris is talking
39:52
Speaker2: about, that's a deeply disconcerting moment for a lot of people and a lot of churches, right?
39:58
Speaker2: It's very altering to their mentality and their perspective.
40:03
Speaker2: And I do think guys working in church renewal in particular need to be sympathetic
40:07
Speaker2: to that because we're asking people to examine realities that they hold precious
40:12
Speaker2: and a lot of times for good reason, right?
40:14
Speaker2: It's not just that they're just defending this program. They're defending the
40:18
Speaker2: fact that that program 40 years ago really did help fulfill the Great Commission.
40:23
Speaker2: It really did help them do some of those things. They just failed to see the
40:28
Speaker2: shifts sometimes. Sometimes that's true. So this sweet older saint sitting in
40:32
Speaker2: the back of the room, she raises her hand. I call on her.
40:35
Speaker2: And I thought I was doing this very simple teaching on just how do you pray
40:41
Speaker2: for lost people to come to church?
40:44
Speaker2: And I'd given them six categories of lost people to pray for specifically for
40:49
Speaker2: God to bring into their church.
40:51
Speaker2: And she starts off and she's from Alabama.
40:54
Speaker2: So both of you guys can maybe resonate. She's got that soft Alabama accent.
40:59
Speaker2: And she's been out here in California though. And she's like,
41:01
Speaker2: I've been a member of this church since 1963. And she said, and I have been
41:06
Speaker2: in Southern Baptist churches my entire life. She's 84.
41:10
Speaker2: And she said, I want to know why no one taught me to pray like this.
41:16
Speaker2: She wasn't disputing the need for it. It was It was one of those moments that
41:21
Speaker2: just was heartbreaking to me.
41:24
Speaker2: Not that someone needed to follow the model I was advocating for that morning,
41:28
Speaker2: but just simply that a saint could
41:30
Speaker2: get to 84 years old, attend a Southern Baptist church her entire life,
41:35
Speaker2: be a part of a particular church within our association since 1963, and have not
41:42
Speaker2: one pastor teach her how to actively pray for lost people to come into their church.
41:49
Speaker2: And it was heartbreaking and heart-wrenching. And that moment of clarity that
41:53
Speaker2: came to her and to the others in the room, there was just like this silence after that question.
41:59
Speaker2: And it was both encouraging and, like I said, heartbreaking to me because I
42:02
Speaker2: realize, once again, so often our leadership is not aimed towards what Chris
42:07
Speaker2: has been talking about, bringing people that clarity and bringing them in alignment to the mission of God.
42:13
Speaker2: So that's a story that came to my mind when you were asking that question,
42:17
Speaker2: Pastor Chase. Chris, you've got a million stories, I am sure, along these lines.
42:22
Speaker0: I've got stories on both sides. The only thing that I would say,
42:25
Speaker0: and I love that illustration that you use of that sweet lady, is
42:30
Speaker0: I think that our seminaries and Bible colleges have done very well at educating
42:36
Speaker0: us to the point that we can talk over people's heads.
42:39
Speaker0: And that education is not a bad thing. It only becomes a bad thing when we use
42:45
Speaker0: the big words and that people just, Donald Miller, there's a phrase that I've
42:50
Speaker0: started using over and over, and I like the phrase. I'm sure you're familiar with Donald Miller.
42:54
Speaker0: He wrote Blue Like Jazz. It got some negative reviews.
42:59
Speaker0: From a theological standpoint, some people may not be in very good alignment
43:03
Speaker0: with him. And my quoting him on this is because of the movement,
43:08
Speaker0: the direction that he's gone now with his career.
43:11
Speaker0: But he talks about, with StoryBrand, zero cognitive load whenever it comes to
43:16
Speaker0: having conversations with people, when it comes to marketing.
43:19
Speaker0: Now, he's marketing to the business world, not to the church world.
43:22
Speaker0: But I think zero cognitive load is a great, great phrase.
43:27
Speaker0: When you're having a conversation with a church member and you're talking about
43:31
Speaker0: biblical matters, you really need to talk in terms of zero cognitive load.
43:36
Speaker0: Otherwise, they're going to hear it and then they're going to move on because
43:41
Speaker0: it just takes too much mental energy to figure out what you're talking about
43:45
Speaker0: for the majority of people.
43:46
Speaker0: Now, do I mean we need to lower things as a base common denominator to where
43:50
Speaker0: we're not helping to educate?
43:52
Speaker0: Absolutely not. But there does come a point where if people just don't know,
43:57
Speaker0: let's not talk all over their heads.
43:59
Speaker0: Let's make it to where it's relatable so they can hear the gospel.
44:03
Speaker0: And then you give them, this is how you apply it in your life as a teacher.
44:08
Speaker0: This is how it shows up as a plumber, as an electrician.
44:12
Speaker0: This is how it shows up, you know, on the job site. This is how it shows up in your office.
44:18
Speaker0: And this is how you carry this board. Or here's one way that you can carry this board.
44:22
Speaker0: You have to make it super easy for them because we're in a day and age where
44:26
Speaker0: everything has become super easy for them.
44:28
Speaker0: It's the reason why the Christian Standard Bible has become so popular.
44:33
Speaker0: It's because it's written in a fifth grade reading level because they know we
44:37
Speaker0: have to simplify this down because people aren't taking the time to process through it.
44:41
Speaker0: For those that want to take the time to process through it, take them deep,
44:45
Speaker0: do it. But that's not the majority of people. And it's probably not the majority
44:49
Speaker0: of people sitting in your pews as much as you want it to be.
44:53
Speaker2: So good.
44:54
Speaker1: Okay. Well, I think that's a good midway point to break up the interview.
44:58
Speaker1: We are going to have part two with Chris Reynolds next week.
45:02
Speaker1: And it actually gets even deeper and more interesting. So I really think the
45:07
Speaker1: first half of the interview was great. He did a great job. Second half is even
45:10
Speaker1: better. It's going to be awesome.
45:12
Speaker1: So stay tuned for that. And if you're not subscribed now, you really should
45:15
Speaker1: be at our website, everychurchflourishing.com.
45:20
Speaker1: In the next couple of weeks, we're going to launch a brand new feature of the
45:25
Speaker1: Every Church Flourishing podcast, and we're calling it Pastor Disaster.
45:30
Speaker1: What is a pastor disaster? Well, this is stories from listeners who are pastors
45:36
Speaker1: of any stripes, even church leaders, about disastrous things that have happened in your church.
45:43
Speaker1: Now, we will protect your anonymity, should you so desire, and the anonymity
45:49
Speaker1: of your church, should you so desire.
45:52
Speaker1: But what we want from you is funny, scary,
45:57
Speaker1: Cautionary tales, interesting things of ministry that have happened to you that
46:04
Speaker1: at least temporarily ended up in disaster.
46:08
Speaker1: So if you've got a pastor disaster, I'm going to ask you to reach out and send us an email and
46:15
Speaker1: and then we'll schedule an interview with you.
46:18
Speaker1: You can also just kind of record it on our website, everychurchflourishing.com.
46:23
Speaker1: There is a way to leave a voicemail if it's a short and sweet pastor disaster,
46:27
Speaker1: but if it's got a little bit more bulk to it, we'll spend two,
46:31
Speaker1: three, four, five minutes talking to you and set up an interview time soon.
46:36
Speaker1: All you got to do is contact us through the contact page on everychurchflourishing.com.
46:41
Speaker1: Let me give you a couple of mild, low-level examples of pastor disasters,
46:47
Speaker1: and I experienced one today. Today, our church, Valley Baptist in Salinas,
46:52
Speaker1: California, had Dr. C.J.
46:54
Speaker1: Wan of the Great Commission Association, who was just on the ECF podcast a few
47:00
Speaker1: episodes ago talking about prayer, and I thought it was so good.
47:03
Speaker1: I asked him to come preach to our church, and he did today, and it was awesome.
47:07
Speaker1: And today is Sunday as I'm recording this. Last night, Saturday night,
47:12
Speaker1: my wife, Janet, was sad as she was going to sleep that she was going to have
47:16
Speaker1: to be in children's church today and miss Dr. CJ's sermon.
47:21
Speaker1: So overnight, I kind of made a plan with my son that we would take over children's
47:26
Speaker1: church for tomorrow so that Janet and my daughter Phoebe didn't have to.
47:30
Speaker1: And I will tell you, I used to be a children's minister way,
47:33
Speaker1: way back in the day, but it's been a long time. In fact, in the eight-plus years
47:38
Speaker1: I've been in California, today was the first day I've been in Children's Church and
47:44
Speaker1: In eight years. So that was really interesting.
47:47
Speaker1: And within about 10 minutes of being there, I was teaching on today's passage,
47:54
Speaker1: which was all about Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath.
47:57
Speaker1: And a visitor, a young lady raised her hand in our children's church room.
48:03
Speaker1: And she said, sir, my finger's stuck. I was like, your finger's stuck?
48:08
Speaker1: What do you mean? So her hand was under the table, and as I began to look,
48:14
Speaker1: it indeed was wrapped around the table leg and
48:18
Speaker1: And it appeared to be stuck in the braces of the table, between the braces and the table leg.
48:25
Speaker1: So I gallantly began to try to gently tug her finger out, but I misunderstood the situation.
48:35
Speaker1: As it happens, her finger was not stuck in between the braces and the pole.
48:42
Speaker1: Her finger was stuck in a hole in the table leg, And I didn't realize it.
48:49
Speaker1: And it was my instinct to pull hard to get her out of the predicament she was in.
48:55
Speaker1: But praise God, I did not do that. We almost were in the kind of do we need
49:01
Speaker1: to call the fire department situation because my son and I worked with her for
49:05
Speaker1: several minutes, one of us getting under the table.
49:08
Speaker1: And, praise God, we were eventually able to pull her finger out of the hole
49:13
Speaker1: that for some reason was in a children's church table that was made for children
49:20
Speaker1: and is children finger-sized.
49:22
Speaker1: So I would totally, when I was a kid, stick my finger in those kind of places
49:27
Speaker1: and probably get them trapped just like she did.
49:31
Speaker1: That was a narrowly averted pastor disaster.
49:34
Speaker1: One of the pastor disasters we're going to tell you about in an upcoming episode
49:40
Speaker1: was not averted so well. We're going to call it a mass poisoning incident.
49:47
Speaker1: And although everybody turned out to be okay, it was almost not that way.
49:52
Speaker1: That'll be upcoming on a future episode when we discuss that mass poisoning
49:58
Speaker1: incident at a church in Alabama that I pastored.
50:01
Speaker1: Let me close out real quick with our weekly look at what's going on in the Great
50:07
Speaker1: Commission Association Fellowship of Churches, which is the sponsor of this podcast.
50:13
Speaker1: You can get in touch with us at our website, which is gcasbc.org. That's gcasbc.org.
50:22
Speaker1: We are a family of churches in Central California, and we would love to partner
50:27
Speaker1: with you, especially if you are a church leader or represent a church or a pastor
50:32
Speaker1: and you are doing ministry alone. We could be your team.
50:36
Speaker1: Coming up at the beginning of August, August 1st at First Baptist Gilroy,
50:42
Speaker1: we have partnered with the California Southern Baptist Convention Evangelism Workshop.
50:47
Speaker1: And if you are a Southern Baptist church, you can get a $1,000 grant pretty
50:52
Speaker1: much automatically for outreach. If you come to that, that's Saturday,
50:56
Speaker1: August the 1st at First Baptist Gilroy.
50:59
Speaker1: More details at GCASBC.org. And September 19th, 2026, which is my dear wife
51:07
Speaker1: Janet's birthday, There is a Flourish equipping conference for women in ministry.
51:14
Speaker1: The price is great. The location is Journey Christian Fellowship,
51:19
Speaker1: which is on Foothill Boulevard in San Luis Obispo, California.
51:23
Speaker1: You're going to want to check that out and you can register through our website,
51:27
Speaker1: gcasbc.org slash flourish.
51:31
Speaker1: We would love to hear from you. We would love to have you recommend our podcast
51:36
Speaker1: to other listeners. So please share the show. Thanks for listening.
51:39
Speaker1: Back next week, Lord willing, good day to you and God's