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How to boost your self-confidence: tips from the top · Project Podcast

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Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
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the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
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the editor of Project APM's Quarterly journal and your host
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today. In this podcast we're tackling
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the perennial problem of self-confidence and why many of
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us need an occasional and more general boost to our levels of
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it. To find out exactly how you can
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do this and also how to bounce back from a set back, I'm
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speaking to Inga Beale, ex CEO of Lloyds of London and a woman
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who has very much learnt how to get ahead in the male dominated
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sector. I'm also getting the advice from
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leadership coach Muriel Wilkins of Pravis Partners in the US,
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who has a new book called Leadership Unblocked, just
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published by Harvard Business Review Press.
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She's also the host of Harvard Business Review's Coaching Real
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Leaders podcast. I also speak to Anita Fagura,
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who is highly experienced in the world of project management and
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is now a leadership development and culture coach, particularly
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around inclusion. So first, let's meet Muriel and
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find out what she's learnt from her work coaching business
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leaders and getting ahead in business herself.
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Murals, so great to speak to you.
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Thanks for joining us on the IBM Podcast today.
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Absolutely. I'm delighted to be here.
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You coach people in business to help them within their careers.
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How much is a problem of self-confidence to them?
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Is it common? What kinds of things have you
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have they shared with you about their concerns around
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confidence? Yeah.
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I mean, certainly, I think the topic of confidence in
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particular self-confidence is something that absolutely comes
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up with individuals at different as different stages of their
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career, whether it is when they're first starting and even
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as they get more senior. I work with folks along the full
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trajectory and specialise, particularly with those who are
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senior. And even when you get to that
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level, when you're entering a new situation, a new context, a
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new function or role, it can lead you to questioning whether
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you have the capability to to do that role.
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So it can get in the way, particularly in terms of diving
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into new opportunities with your full, with all the strengths
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that you bring it. I can also see it sometimes be
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at a cost where folks overcompensate for what they
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feel they're lacking in and then it pushes too much so it it can
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get in the way on both ends. Some treating and then some sort
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of pushing over pushing in a way that that doesn't bear well for
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them, particularly when it comes to relationships.
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And thank you. Is there a particular group of
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people? I recently went to a Women in
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project Management conference and there was a lot of chatter
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around lunch and in the breaks around self-confidence and the
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lack of it, which surprised me because they're all very
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successful people. But is do you feel as though
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it's something that's particularly widespread among
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amongst women in business, more so than men?
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Look, I, I work with folks across gender lines and, and
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while I see the issue of self-confidence come up across
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both genders, I think that it is exacerbated a bit more with
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women. And I think there's also the
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reason like we have to sort of dig below the surface and
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understand where the self, the lack of self-confidence might be
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coming up. I think the reason it's
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exacerbated with women are quite frankly, any underrepresented
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groups. Is that part of what might give
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you confidence, right? Is when you see yourself and
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others, those folks mirror the, the, the, the belief that you
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think you can also succeed in that particular situation.
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So if you are from an underrepresented group, whether
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it's a woman in a male dominated industry or other types of under
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representation, it, it is easy to understand why the trigger or
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the exacerbation of lack of self-confidence might come up
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right, Because you don't see as many to mirror back, which I
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think creates a really interesting issue here in terms
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of, well, what is self-confidence and where do
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where do you source it from? And, and when you think about
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what self-confidence is, right, it's the confidence in yourself.
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Well, what is confidence? Confidence is if you can break.
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I'm very interested in what words mean.
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And so when you break down the word confidence, you can go back
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to the root of the Latin word confidelis.
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What is fidelis? We know fidelis means faith.
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So confidence literally means with faith and faith, you know,
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and this is not from a religious standpoint, it's definition, you
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know, faith is the belief in the unknown.
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So when we break that down, what does that actually mean to have
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self-confidence? It's to believe in yourself even
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when you don't know what's going to happen.
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That's what confidence is. It's the belief in yourself.
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So what what, what is required to be able to do that sometimes
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and why, you know, particularly women or again, underrepresented
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groups might not have as much self-confidence as that.
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They don't see proof of that in others, not because others don't
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have it, but they don't see those others.
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They don't see other women and in the same situation that
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they're in able to have the positive outcomes that they
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desire for themselves and therefore it is again triggers
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or might exacerbate lack of self-confidence more so than
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others who do see more representation where they are.
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And does that apply to age as well?
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Because you can get quite far, quite young as a project
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professional. And then you might be in a
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project team where you are working alongside people you
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don't know who are experts in their fields.
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That might be an architect, an engineer who might be male, who
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might be considerably older than you, and who might not credit
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you with the authority you deserve and it might make you
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feel intimidated. We'll come on to general pieces
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of advice you can give later around boosting self-confidence.
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But in that particular scenario, what is useful to think about
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before you go into that situation or you find yourself
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working in a situation like this?
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What can you tell yourself to help with you that
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self-confidence? Yeah.
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I mean, I think what you need to, to be able to recognise is
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your role is not there to be, to be toe to toe with the person
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who might be 30 years your senior, right.
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I, I recall in my own career, you know, when I started off
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many, many years ago, you know, not only was I typically the
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youngest person in the room, but I also looked much younger than
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what I was. So here I was dealing with, you
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know, the the quintessential sort of grey haired male, you
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know, and I would walk in this, you know, post college for sure,
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but everybody thought that I was a high school student.
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And so here's here's what I realised.
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There's nothing I can do about that.
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Like what, what am I going to do?
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Go and grey my hair and try to make myself look older?
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Well, that's not so the real what you do and what you tell
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yourself is why am I in this room?
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What is the value that I bring? The value that I bring is not to
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be like that person. I have to define the value that
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I bring. There's a reason I'm in this
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role. There's a reason I'm in this
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meeting. And let me be clear about what
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that is and lean into that rather than waste my energy on
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trying to be, you know, one of these other folks.
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I mean that saying comparison is the thief of joy.
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It is exactly a comparison is the thief of confidence, Let me
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of self-confidence, let me tell you.
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Because you're not looking at yourself at that point.
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You're looking at everybody else and comparing yourself and using
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that as your definition of success rather than the success
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that you're already bringing in. That's a great piece of advice.
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I I was was wondering how much of A blocker to your own career
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success is a lack of self-confidence beyond making
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you feel uncomfortable, but how how important is it for you to
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have some a greater level of self-confidence for you to
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progress in your career? I think it's, I think it is
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critically important. I think it's critically
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important not just for work, but in life, right?
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And why, you know, because part of what you're doing when you're
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dealing with work is you're dealing with uncertainty.
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You're dealing with the uncertainty of how this project
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is going to turn out, of being able to manage a team, of being
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able to take that next role, of being able to do the job or, or,
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or ace that presentation. You prepare.
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But there's always a bit of uncertainty.
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And So what gets you through that uncertainty, what gets you
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through that uncertainty is the belief that no matter what
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happens on the other side, you're going to be able to deal
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with it. You know, the issue is people
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tend to wait until they're ready to do something to feel
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confident. That's not what confidence is.
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Confidence is not about you knowing how to do the thing.
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Confidence is about knowing that you can learn how to do the
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thing. And it's also about knowing that
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no matter what happens, you'll be able to deal with it.
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It might not be comfortable, it might be challenging, it might
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be a little painful, but you'll be able to get through it.
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That that is the difference between having self-confidence
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or not. So in reality, you know, we get
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really caught up in this word self-confidence.
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I actually think, and, and I didn't make this term up.
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It comes from, I can't remember the author's name right now, but
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it's really about self efficacy, right?
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Will you have the resourcefulness to be able to
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deal with whatever challenges in front of you?
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That that's what self-confidence is rather than outsourcing it to
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someone else. So it comes from a place of
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resourcefulness and understanding that you have what
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it takes mentally, emotionally, physically, skill wise
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capabilities to be able to deal with not only learning the
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thing, but figuring out how to deal with the thing whether it
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turns out well or doesn't turn out well.
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That is such a great way to think about it.
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I've never taken that angle before.
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So it's no, it's feeling a sense of resourcefulness that you can
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rely on yourself to to solve this problem or get through it.
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OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Because think about it, right? So when you talk about does it
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get in the way of a career? Well, where it gets in the way
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of the career is of your career potential or anything that you
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might do is a lot of us, you know, do not take steps forward
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because we're concerned about what might happen if we take
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that step forward. But if you feel like, OK, I'm
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not exactly sure how it's going to turn out.
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I mean, who knows how anything's ever going to turn out, right?
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Like we don't have that type of control, you know?
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And if you do, let me know your secret.
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But if we know, if we can trust ourselves that either I will
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know how to deal with whatever happens or I will know how to
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get the resources, you know, I will be resourceful enough to be
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able to know who to ask or what to ask or to even ask for help,
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then I know that I'll, again, I'll make it through.
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I think we spent a lot of our times, and this is where, again,
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it can get away in your career. We can, we, we spent an enormous
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amount of energy and time trying to keep ourselves from being
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uncomfortable, you know, And so that's where this, you know,
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this again, it can really impact your own confidence in yourself
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if you believe that you will not be able to deal with the
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discomfort of what might happen. But I, I, when I work with
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clients is getting them comfortable with the idea and
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even the reality of being uncomfortable.
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And once they realise they can, then it's like, OK, well, I've
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been through that. You know, I can certainly go
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through something else, even if I may not like it.
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Excellent stuff there. Two things that I'm just
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thinking about as you were talking a is confidence related
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to optimism. So the more if, the more
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optimistic you feel. Do you feel more confident?
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And the second thing was around, does self-confidence improve
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naturally over time because you generally experienced more new
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situations and, and if and you've navigated, it's been a
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successful failure, but you got through and you survived, you
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know, through the other end. So do you think you're naturally
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more self confident if you're an optimist?
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Let me start with the optimism piece, right?
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Is it, are, are people who are self confident naturally
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optimist? I, I don't have the data behind
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that. I mean, we would have to ask
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some social scientists and some, some researchers to figure that
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out. But anecdotally, what I would
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say is that people who have self-confidence, I think are
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realistic opt have realistic optimism.
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You know, it's not, you know, I, I, I had somebody tell me once,
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you know that there's a thin line between optimism and
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optimism and denial, right? So it's not just optimism where
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it's like, oh, you know, everything's fine, everything's
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fine, I can do it. No, no, no.
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I think folks who have self-confidence are also
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grounded in reality. So they assess the situation for
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what it is and then they decide, you know, am I going to look at
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it? Glass half full?
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Where's the opportunity? Do I have the growth mindset,
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right? Which is I, I, I, I may not know
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it yet, but I have the capacity to know it or learn it versus
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the fixed mindset, which is, it is what it is.
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There's nothing that can change, I cannot adapt, etcetera.
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So yes, there's optimism, but it's an optimism that is
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grounded in reality. And so it's the realistic
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optimism, which is, let me assess and see the situation for
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what it is. OK, so that's number one.
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The second question is, can self-confidence, does
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self-confidence naturally grow over time?
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Maybe for some it does, right? Because they have a track record
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and and then so therefore the track record sort of reinforces
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the the confidence that they have.
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I will say that what that does is support the confidence, but
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I'm not convinced that it grows the self-confidence, OK, Because
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to me there's a difference there.
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I can be confident because all of the external data is telling
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me to be confident. People are giving me awards, I'm
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getting the A, I'm getting the promotion and therefore I am
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confident. I believe in myself.
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I believe I can do all things. But what happens when all those
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things go away? That's where self-confidence
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comes into the picture. When you have the dry season,
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when you have the drought, when you get fired, when you get laid
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off, when the project doesn't come through as planned, when
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you don't get the promotion. And so self-confidence, to me,
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the difference between confidence and self-confidence
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is self-confidence is internally resourced.
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You're not relying on any type of external validation to give
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you that sense that you know, you know what, no matter what, I
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know I can figure this out. I can, or I know where to go to
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figure this out, or I know that I have it in me that no matter
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what happens, I'll be able to deal with it does now.
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So the question is, does that grow naturally?
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I think that AI wouldn't take my chances on it growing naturally.
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I think you really have to do some some work to cultivate
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that. It doesn't just happen.
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It's like a flower, you know, you've got to water the soil and
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if you have a garden, you've got to water that garden to make
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sure that that type of flower grows.
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And I think if that's a type of attribute or behaviour or way of
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being that you want, then you do have to cultivate it within
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yourself. And it starts by providing
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yourself with that internal validation, rather than solely
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relying on external validation to validate your worth.
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I love that analogy about plants.
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My house plants are all dying here.
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I forget to order that, although I've got that big one in the
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background there. So that's looking pretty
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healthy. But so I mean really to get to
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the love of it is to ask you what work do you do then to
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cultivate your self-confidence, your levels of self-confidence?
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How how can you boost yourself confidence?
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And then my final question would be, how do you survive Knox to
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yourself confidence? Absolutely.
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OK, so how do you boost it? I think there's A at a very
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practical, pragmatic way, I think the first thing is really
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to define what your value is. OK, So what do I mean by that?
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You can say it is define your value, define your success.
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Why? Because most of us, what we're
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seeking is to feel worthy, whether it's at work, outside of
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work and life like and, and, and no, there's nothing negative
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about that. I mean, that's a fundamental
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need, right? A fundamental human need is for
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us to feel worthy or feel valued just as much as it's to feel
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connected and to feel safe. And so the, the point around
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confidence is the reason we go look at it from the outside is
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we're looking for that external validation to say, Oh yes, yes,
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I'm valuable here in this meeting.
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I'm valuable here in this room where while, if you want to
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cultivate self-confidence, you've got to start with, well,
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how do I define my value, right? What do I see as value in terms
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of what I bring? So in a very specific example,
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the next time you go into a meeting, for example, you can
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ask yourself what is the value that I'm bringing to this
18:13
meeting? And it doesn't matter.
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It does not have to be that you are the one who's going to come
18:18
up with the big solution and the big answer.
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It could be that I'm going to come to this meeting because you
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know what? I know the details behind the
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details of this particular project.
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And if anyone has a question, I will be ready to be able to
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answer for it. Or the value that I bring is 1
18:35
of curiosity and I have an ability to ask questions in a
18:38
way that moves the conversation forward.
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The the value that I bring in this meeting really to be the
18:44
person who can capture everybody's thoughts.
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You know, I recall very early in my career, actually when I was
18:52
switching careers and I was trying to get into the world of
18:56
leadership development and I had really no experience in this
18:59
particular world and I went and volunteered to facilitate a
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meeting. It just so happens the person
19:06
who was facilitating it with me was the head of leadership
19:09
development for this big global organisation.
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And he said to me, oh, oh, you're great.
19:14
Like, here's what you can do for me.
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And what he wanted me to do is literally be the person who sort
19:20
of put the spreadsheet together, kept the list like a lot of the
19:24
administrative work, because what he saw is I had very strong
19:27
organisational skills. Now, mind you, I had an MBA from
19:31
Harvard Business School, right? And here what he, what he needed
19:35
at that point was somebody who was kind of administrative, but
19:38
I had something to gain from that.
19:40
I wanted to be in the room. And so by God, if that's the
19:43
value that I could bring in that room, to be able to learn from
19:46
this person who was epic in his field as I knew it would not
19:52
last forever, that I would be able to leverage this, then I
19:55
would rather be in the room knowing this is the value that I
19:58
can bring. Because really I had nothing
20:00
else to add really. I really didn't.
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And so that's what I did. So it's very clear that that's
20:07
what I was there for. I was not there to go toe to toe
20:10
with him and I was also not there to do nothing.
20:13
So the story is define and figure out what the value that
20:17
you bring and be comfortable with it.
20:20
Be comfortable with it because know that it is useful and that
20:25
it will bring you some use, just as I experienced in my story,
20:28
right? So define your value in any
20:31
aspect that you're in, but define it in a way that you
20:34
believe in it. And then also do some scenario
20:37
planning. If you feel like things might
20:40
not go right, do some scenario planning around if this were to
20:43
happen, how would I deal with it?
20:44
If this were to happen, how would I deal with it?
20:46
If this were to happen, how would I deal with it?
20:49
If this would I deal with it, Why?
20:49
Because that increases the chances of you feeling
20:52
resourcefulness, not so much that those exact situations are
20:57
going to happen, but that you have done some warm up in terms
21:00
of understanding that you do have self efficacy, that you can
21:03
deal with things that might your way.
21:06
So it's feeling prepared for any eventuality.
21:09
You've got something to suffer from.
21:11
Absolutely. I always say don't wait till
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you're in the situation to then figure out how to feel confident
21:17
about it. It all starts in the warm up and
21:19
in the preparation. What about any advice around if
21:22
you suffer a big set back knock back in your confidence?
21:26
Feeling of self-confidence what? How should you frame it?
21:29
How should you think about it so it doesn't leave you demoralised
21:32
in a kind of wreck on the floor? Yeah, absolutely.
21:36
I mean, look, I think that the first place to start and this is
21:39
just an overarching philosophy while whether it is a set back
21:43
or a comeback, nothing lasts forever, OK.
21:48
I mean this has been, I did not make this up.
21:50
This isn't the research proves it, life proves it.
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This isn't all the wisdom teachings from, you know, the
21:58
Buddhist teach about impermanence to any other that
22:03
you might look at. Everything has its season, OK.
22:06
And so just as much as we cannot stay really it is it is
22:12
deteriorating to stay attached to when things go well.
22:17
It is also deteriorating to stay attached to when things don't go
22:21
well. You want to sort of hold them
22:22
both as they just are. So when you have a set back, you
22:26
just see you have to accept it. This is a setback.
22:30
This is a setback. It's OK to feel sad.
22:33
It's OK to feel upset. It's OK.
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It's OK. It's OK and the set back is not
22:40
going to last forever. I have never met anyone who has
22:42
been in a set back their whole life.
22:46
It just is OK. So that is the first place is
22:49
come face to face with reality. Then take a look and I think the
22:54
first place to look is understand what was at play, try
22:57
to try to really analyse it in a way.
23:00
What was that play? What were the variables?
23:03
How did others contribute to it? How did I contribute to it?
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Now the what I contribute to it is not to blame yourself.
23:12
It's not to beat yourself up. This is not the assignment.
23:16
The assignment is to actually give yourself grace.
23:19
OK, This is how I contributed to it.
23:21
And now what is within my control around what I can do on
23:27
2 levels. One, how I can experience this
23:31
set back because going back to early in our conversation, I can
23:34
experience it with realistic optimism and a growth mindset.
23:39
Or am I going to experience it from this place of a fixed
23:42
mindset? There's nothing I can do about
23:44
it. Glass half empty.
23:45
So how do I want to experience this set back?
23:48
Because the set back is here, OK, and then you can move to OK,
23:53
what do I want to do? All right, what do I want to do
23:56
to try to get through the season as well as move me to whatever
24:02
it is that I want to move to? But one thing that I'm going to
24:05
really caution people on is you don't want to move directly to
24:09
action right away. You don't want to move directly
24:12
to you know what, I'm just going to go talk to my boss about this
24:15
because what drives the action is the belief.
24:18
And so if you're still believing that you're not worthy or that
24:22
you don't have anything to add or that you shouldn't be in the
24:25
room or that you shouldn't have made that mistake or all these
24:29
things that run counter to the action and the outcome that you
24:33
want, you've got to make sure that your mindset is aligned
24:38
with the result that you want. And so when it comes to showing
24:42
up or or coming back from a set back, you've got to make sure
24:46
that you've done the work so that your mindset is aligned
24:48
with what you want that comeback to look like or else it's not
24:52
going to work. Mirrors some great insight there
24:56
and words of advice, something I'll put to good use as well.
24:59
I just wondered, was there anything else you any last final
25:03
pieces of advice you'd give around self-confidence before
25:07
you wrap up? I mean, I think, you know, we've
25:10
talked about it at length, but I think at the end of the day, the
25:12
biggest thing that you have in control is not everyone else out
25:15
there or the situations out there and the circumstances, OK?
25:20
So if you're really looking to cultivate yourself confident,
25:24
focus on the thing that you have the absolute most control on,
25:29
which is yourself, and that's where the real work starts.
25:34
So Muriel's advice to cultivate self-confidence is something to
25:37
bear in mind, and also that it's important to make time to focus
25:41
on ourselves. Now let's speak to Anita, who
25:45
has very real experience working within project management.
25:48
She gives her insight on why those in the minority can
25:51
struggle with self-confidence and why this is often a systemic
25:55
failure. Importantly, she gives advice on
25:58
what managers can do to boost the self-confidence of their
26:00
team members. Anita, thanks for joining us.
26:05
It's a pleasure to have you. Thanks for finding the time.
26:08
Thanks, Emma. I'm really glad to be here and
26:10
talking to you. Great.
26:11
Well let's try and get to the bottom of the subjects of
26:14
self-confidence. How much of A blocker to career
26:18
success is a lack of self-confidence, do you think?
26:22
And is it something that you've come across often, but in the
26:27
sexes in which you're familiar or the people that you've
26:30
coached or colleagues or your own experience?
26:34
So a majority of my own experience has been within the
26:37
construction sector and I predominantly have coached women
26:41
in project management across construction and technology.
26:46
And self-confidence is a topic that comes up nearly every time.
26:52
Really, even if it. Yeah, nearly every time.
26:55
Even if it's not the main thing that somebody comes in with
26:58
originally is definitely a key blocker that will come up in the
27:06
women that I've worked with. And, and not just women
27:09
actually, although I've predominantly worked with women.
27:13
Yeah, competence is such a big one.
27:15
And I think in these sectors in particular, where women
27:20
typically are from underrepresented groups, there
27:24
can be a culture which perpetuates this idea of
27:30
difference. And that can be then harder when
27:34
you're trying to progress in your career and seeing how you
27:38
can make the next move, particularly if that's a move
27:40
upwards around how is that possible when you don't
27:44
necessarily have the role models ahead of you?
27:47
And a lot of a lot of people in the sector, particularly women,
27:53
particularly women from underrepresented groups, they
27:56
often face quite challenging experiences as well.
27:59
It can be quite a toxic industry sometimes or unfortunately too
28:05
often. And sometimes I would find that
28:07
I was coaching women and actually, they would actually
28:12
really grow in terms of their own confidence, in terms of
28:16
their own belief in what they could do and we're capable of.
28:20
And we're owning that much more. And then they would still go
28:24
back into environments that were chipping away at their
28:27
confidence that could be quite toxic, quite, quite challenging.
28:33
And then we kind of come into this area of resilience, which I
28:40
think can sometimes get played as like a bit of an excuse in,
28:45
in, in certain industries or in certain environments of, well,
28:49
if you can't handle this, it's because you're not resilient
28:52
enough. So I think there is an overlap
28:55
with confidence and self-confidence then.
28:57
But ultimately, I think actually if this is an environmental
29:00
factor, then we can't put it all down to individuals,
29:04
particularly individuals that have differing backgrounds,
29:07
different lived experiences. And when they're facing these
29:12
challenges, that is all on them. So, yeah, so that's, that's the
29:17
experiences that I've seen. And I think that confidence that
29:22
comes up can often put certain people from taking the
29:29
opportunities. It can often be a blocker of
29:32
going for the opportunity even in the 1st place or because they
29:36
have time and time again, but their experiences have haven't
29:41
succeeded in the way that they wanted to.
29:43
So that ultimately that resilience or or those
29:46
experiences take that knock on confidence.
29:49
It was interesting for you to say that it can be easy for an
29:53
organisation to blame the individual and say you're not
29:55
resilient enough and put the onus on them to do something
29:59
about it or make them feel that they're failing to do something,
30:02
although that's strong enough. They don't have enough
30:04
resilience for us. In fact, it can be an
30:06
organisation or structural saying that's gone wrong.
30:10
It's not going right. So what if you're a manager of a
30:16
team and you want to make sure that the people on your team do
30:22
have healthy levels of self-confidence or give them
30:27
more confidence than they actually have because they owe
30:31
it to themselves to have that confidence.
30:33
What? I haven't asked this question of
30:34
anyone, but how? What's your responsibility as a
30:38
manager, as a people manager towards that and how Have you
30:42
got any tips on how to make that happen?
30:46
How do you boost other people's confidence?
30:50
Oh, I love that question. I think as a line manager,
30:53
you've got so much weight as as somebody who can influence
30:58
somebody's career, both in kind of building somebody's
31:01
confidence, but also their experiences and being able to
31:04
open doors for for them potentially.
31:07
I think a skill that isn't as strong as it could be in a lot
31:15
of our line managers is around giving constructive feedback.
31:20
And that can be to that can fall into like A2 fold challenge of
31:27
being able to give constructive feedback that can actually be
31:30
critical, but actually be good for somebody to help develop
31:36
areas where it would be really good for them to develop and be
31:40
very specific with that. So it's an area that actually
31:44
they can take on board and take forward if they choose to.
31:48
And if they see that, that's in benefit of their career and
31:51
performance as well. So sometimes it's about actually
31:54
that kind of sometime more critical element that can be
31:57
missing. And again, we do see some trends
32:00
in some of the research which say actually for women, and they
32:05
tend to not always get that or it tends to be less often that
32:09
they're getting that kind of constructive, useful feedback.
32:12
That's really specific. I know in my experience, I
32:16
tried, I at one point put myself forward for a promotion and just
32:20
to be on the path. And I was like, OK, what do I
32:22
need to be doing to get myself on that path?
32:25
And I got told I wasn't ready and that actually really
32:29
impacted my confidence, not because I wasn't ready, but when
32:32
I tried to unpick that feedback of like, OK, what do I need to
32:36
do to get ready? I just wasn't being met with
32:38
anything that was that I could grasp or understand or put into
32:43
action. And so for me that meant, OK, I
32:46
just won't apply again. I'm just not going to go for it.
32:50
I think the other part can be actually when we make mistakes
32:53
or we take risks that don't work out or there are like failures
32:59
and in like positive cultures, actually it's not always
33:05
possible. But in positive cultures where
33:07
it's as far as it's possible, that can be encouraged.
33:10
I mean, like it's OK to take a risk.
33:12
It's OK to foul a measured risk, a calculated risk.
33:16
And that as a line manager, we'll scoop you up and rebuild
33:20
you and rebuild your confidence, but also you took a chance that
33:23
you thought would work and that could be a really positive
33:27
things. But in environments where that's
33:30
not possible or the culture doesn't support that, then
33:36
taking then it can actually make people more risk averse because
33:39
they're really worried about taking that step and getting it
33:41
wrong. And actually, if they do make a
33:43
step and it doesn't quite work out perfectly, what would be the
33:46
consequences then? So as line managers, can we give
33:50
support? Can we support people to build
33:53
their confidence to take calculated, measured risks and
33:58
support them whether that works or whether that doesn't?
34:02
And again, we can get gender and race differences here because in
34:07
my, my own, my own research that I was doing, it came up in some
34:12
of the conversations and discussions around, well,
34:15
actually, I was particularly working with women from
34:19
underrepresented ethnic backgrounds.
34:21
And they were saying we can't afford to take the risks that
34:24
our white male peers can. Because if they, because they
34:28
have this really big support network around them and if their
34:31
risk didn't pay off, they still end up getting promoted.
34:34
And if our risk didn't pay off, then we are like the bottom of
34:38
the barrel and we're overlooked forevermore.
34:42
So again, it can be a culture piece, but actually as line
34:44
managers we can play a big role in supporting people and then
34:48
that feeds into self-confidence. I, I that's, that's fantastic.
34:53
Thank you. Was there anything else you
34:55
wanted to add before you wrap up?
34:59
I think one of the biggest things that come comes up for me
35:03
when I'm doing work around leadership, particularly with
35:06
women, particularly with women from underrepresented
35:09
ethnicities, is, is self-confidence, as we've said,
35:13
but very closely linked to it is quite challenging experiences
35:18
and this idea of all this experience of feeling alone in
35:23
that. So for me, the big thing that I
35:26
think it's really important to communicate is that when we're
35:30
going through those challenging experiences, we can absolutely
35:33
feel alone. And then that is a thing that
35:36
will directly impact and erode our self-confidence.
35:41
But know that you're not alone, even if it feels like that's
35:44
what is like in your environment.
35:46
And reach out to people, get support, reach out and build
35:50
your networks, your peers, your friendships and be supported.
35:56
And that's going to feed into yourself confidence as well.
35:59
So, as Anita says, our self-confidence can be boosted
36:03
by feeling supported by a network or a team of people
36:05
invested in us. In fact, asking for feedback on
36:09
your performance in situations where you feel low
36:11
self-confidence can make all the difference, says Inga Beale, Ex,
36:15
CEO of Lloyds of London, who shares that she has had to
36:18
contend with loaf of self-confidence throughout her
36:20
career. Inga, welcome to the OPM
36:23
podcast. Thank you for your time.
36:25
Thank you, it's so good to join you today.
36:27
The first question I had for you was around your own personal
36:32
levels of self-confidence, how that has been over your career.
36:36
Have you ever struggled with it, when and why?
36:38
And just to give listeners background, you you have worked
36:41
in a kind of male dominated company throughout your career.
36:46
So I don't know whether that's had an an impact or anything.
36:48
So yeah, how's, how's yourself confidence been over the years?
36:53
Well, actually I'm going to go back to before I even started
36:56
work when I was school teenager, I didn't, I was so under
37:02
confident about most things. And you know, the teacher, say
37:07
the English teacher wanted me to read out something, you know, go
37:10
up in front of the class and read a passage or a poet piece
37:13
of poetry. And I didn't want to, I was so
37:15
nervous and under confidence. So I know that that started with
37:20
me when I was at school still. And then when I got to the world
37:24
of work, yes, I was surrounded by men.
37:26
I, there was me and sort of 34 men in the in the office when I
37:30
started. And as was my way of coping was
37:34
because I didn't want to be different.
37:35
I just tried to be like them, which did mean that I probably
37:41
came across as quite confident, but deep down I wasn't.
37:47
So I would, I would sort of perhaps joke with them and, and
37:50
try and be like one of the lads. And I think that hid the lack of
37:53
confidence that I had. So I, I had that definitely when
37:57
I started at work. But the slightly sad thing is it
38:01
never really left me. So I couldn't do stages of my
38:05
career where at times and in particular moments and
38:09
particular experiences, I would be full of confidence.
38:13
But I could tell you if I go from the sort of beginning of my
38:15
career and then I go to the end, the last CEO role I had as the
38:18
CEO of Lloyds, there I was, I would made it to the sort of the
38:22
pinnacle of insurance. And yet I could go into a room
38:27
of my peers, other CEOs from around the world of insurers,
38:34
they would all be men. And my confidence would
38:37
disappear again. And I would feel like I was when
38:41
I was young. And the way I sort of coped with
38:45
that was just tell myself sort of to be angry with myself to
38:48
say, look, come on, you're the CEO of Lloyds, you deserve to be
38:51
here. But this confidence thing, I, I
38:54
can tell you there've been moments throughout my career
38:57
when I felt really underconfident, but there, there
39:00
were a few particular things that that helped me get over
39:05
particular, you know, if I said no to something or I was
39:08
particularly nervous about something, I, you know, I did, I
39:10
did get better at it. But it's amazing, this lack of
39:13
confidence, which I think can can stop when you're still at
39:15
school. But so was was one of your ways
39:19
of managing yourself confidence and faking it until you felt
39:24
that confidence so just to get you going.
39:27
In a way it was. And I remember when I, I used to
39:31
play rugby and I think when I started work, you see, I used to
39:35
be in this environment during the day and then I used to go
39:37
off and do my sport. And when I was playing sport, I
39:41
was with all, all my friends and nobody cared about your
39:44
background or what you did for a job.
39:46
You know, you were just there playing sport.
39:48
And that, that was my sort of escapism and I think that helped
39:51
me keep going. But I do also remember the first
39:55
time I was going to give a speech at work and.
40:00
But it was A at a paid conference.
40:01
In other words, people were paying to go to this conference
40:04
and there I was. I wasn't being paid.
40:06
It was part of my job and I thought, Oh my goodness, I've
40:09
got to get up on this stage. And I was so nervous.
40:13
I practise and practise and because I was playing rugby at
40:16
the time, I really hoped that I would have a big serious injury
40:18
so I wouldn't actually have to do.
40:21
I was. It was that bad.
40:22
That's bad. Fish farming conference and
40:25
there were these burly fishermen there and I thought, well, I
40:28
don't. And I had to talk about insuring
40:30
fish farms, which I didn't really know that much.
40:33
I had to show confidence and I thought, Oh my gosh.
40:35
So I kind of, I found myself when I got onto the stage.
40:39
I think it's probably perhaps what actors do.
40:42
I, I sort of acted in a way and, and, and I at the end of my
40:47
speech, I got some compliments, but in a way I didn't recognise
40:51
that that was me on the stage. Afterwards I thought, how did
40:53
those words come out of my mouth?
40:55
It was as though someone had taken over.
40:57
So it was a bit like acting in that regard, yes, you know.
41:03
Is that is that? Have you got any tips around
41:06
building yourself confidence? Or.
41:09
Or giving yourself a beast when you most need it.
41:13
Yeah. Well, I, I also got promoted or
41:17
a promotion. I'd been working for 12 years
41:20
and I was promoted and or I was, I was told I was going to be
41:25
promoted and I was going to move up, take my boss's job.
41:28
He was going to move off to the side and be a peer of mine.
41:30
And I was going to manage a team of three people.
41:33
So it wasn't a big team. I said no to that promotion
41:37
because I didn't have the confidence.
41:40
I don't know whether it was that I thought I wasn't good enough
41:42
for the job, but it was almost as though I thought I'm going to
41:46
go up and now I'm going to have to get on with my ex boss who's
41:49
now my peer and what's he going to think of me here with all
41:51
these things inside my head? So I actually said no to the
41:54
promotion and then the firm helped me.
41:59
So my employer helped me a lot and surrounded me and asked what
42:01
what do you want? What do you need?
42:03
And I actually went on a course called Assertiveness for Women.
42:06
I don't I don't think in mount that exist today.
42:09
This was in the 90s, but I found it.
42:11
It was a week long course and my employer said yes, go on it.
42:14
And that I was there with seven other women.
42:16
And it was a very deep and meaningful week.
42:20
And actually I came out of it understanding myself much more,
42:24
having had lots of feedback about me.
42:27
And on the Monday morning when I got back to work, I went into my
42:30
boss's office. I said I'll take the job, Thank
42:32
you. And that was the first step on
42:34
the credit. And that course actually helped
42:36
me a lot. And when I look back, what I
42:39
think it was is you, you practised a lot, you, you had to
42:42
present to other people. But the big thing was that you
42:46
actually got lots of feedback about you.
42:49
You were sort of telling people, sharing people how you saw
42:52
yourself or how you, how you were feeling.
42:55
And they said, but we don't see you like that.
42:57
We see you like this. And I think that feedback is an
43:00
important part, how you can get confident because you have done
43:06
something as one would say, oh, that was brilliant.
43:08
And you might not have felt it, but they will say no, no, no, it
43:11
was really good in Ukraine across like this and that.
43:14
And so feedback I think is an important part.
43:17
But also I did learn if I was going into a very difficult
43:21
situation, maybe a big meeting or I had to give a presentation,
43:25
I was very nervous about it. I would make give myself a goal
43:31
and and nobody else was sort of measuring me against this goal.
43:34
But I would say right, Inger, I want you to say these three
43:37
things. I want you to talk for at least
43:38
10 minutes or so. And then afterwards, I would
43:40
sort of say to myself, you didn't do that very well or you
43:43
did that brilliantly. Well done.
43:44
And it gave me a sort of focus in the meeting to think not
43:48
about my nerves, but about what I had set myself as a target to
43:51
achieve. Yeah.
43:53
So that was that was that was really helpful.
43:55
And, and I tell you after that, saying no to that promotion, I
43:59
never said no to another job offer, however scary it seemed,
44:03
because it really helped this practise, you know, once you've
44:07
done something once and you realise, wow, this is pretty
44:10
cool, I can do this. It it helps, you know, there's
44:12
nothing like practising. And in sport, we practise a lot.
44:16
Yeah. You catch us all the time doing
44:18
moves and things. You get to work.
44:21
You don't really get to practise so much.
44:22
You're meant to just do something you know the first
44:25
time around without practising, but it's really, really
44:28
practising the repetition that can help give you confidence in
44:31
all sorts of situations. So what about the times when you
44:35
have a set back when something went wrong unexpectedly?
44:39
Everyone faces those kind of bumps in the road.
44:42
So how do you pick yourself up then to then I know something
44:46
terrible happens in the morning at work and you really feel
44:50
you've failed, but then you know you've got the rest of the day
44:53
day to continue with. So how, how?
44:56
What do you do in those situations?
44:59
I think I'm pretty good at compartmentalising things.
45:05
So for instance, if I, if something messed up in the, in
45:08
the early morning at work and I'd done something really badly,
45:11
I would, I would be able to sort of put it in a little box, carry
45:15
on with the rest of the day, then go home that evening.
45:18
Then think about it again, go and sort of think what, how did
45:22
I mess that up so badly? What, what, what was I thinking?
45:26
But then once I've sort of gone into really critical mode on
45:31
myself about messing up, I go to bed, I sleep well and the next
45:37
morning I've completely forgotten about it.
45:40
So, so I've, I've been always quite good at doing that so that
45:43
I don't, things don't linger with me for very long.
45:46
I try not to dwell on them. Now, how you teach yourself to
45:49
do that if it doesn't come naturally, I don't really know.
45:55
But that and there might be other people who are, who are,
45:58
who are actually skilled in this, who can actually teach
46:00
people to do this. But to me, I have that ability
46:03
to do to do that. And that meant if I messed up
46:06
the day before, it would have by the time I got up the next
46:09
morning, I would have usually it wasn't going to affect me.
46:11
I was it was over. I'd done it.
46:13
I'd messed up, chastised myself. But then it was over and and I
46:18
was on to the next day. So maybe it's leaving some time
46:21
for reflection on what, what went wrong and then you you've
46:26
done that bit, you've worked through it and you think, OK,
46:28
I'll do it differently next time perhaps.
46:31
Yes, yes, always trying to think what could I have done
46:34
differently, make myself more prepared because sometimes it's,
46:39
I mean, sometimes you can lack confidence because you haven't
46:41
had enough time to prepare for something.
46:44
That's also another reason. And that's usually because we've
46:48
got this pressure of work and, and maybe we've got something
46:51
going on in our personal life that we haven't freed up our
46:54
calendar enough to actually have some prep time.
46:57
And I've always found that's the most important thing.
47:00
Make sure you're getting enough sleep and make sure you have
47:02
enough prep time for these things.
47:04
Because rather than fill your day, you know, with back-to-back
47:07
meetings, which I know sometimes people can't control as Aceo,
47:12
obviously it's a little bit different, although I hardly had
47:14
any time to myself. But you know, I think, well,
47:17
it's your boss always wanting this, that and the other.
47:19
And it's a bit more difficult, but really try and free up that
47:22
time so that you you feel you've got a little bit of time to
47:26
prepare before you going into a situation.
47:29
Thank you, Inga. What?
47:31
Advice would you give to people who are struggling with their
47:35
self-confidence? I mean you've given plenty of
47:37
advice already, but is there anything?
47:39
If you could say something directly to them, what what
47:41
might you say? Yeah, well, there is something
47:44
about believe in your own ability because sometimes we
47:49
just we doubt all of the things that we can do.
47:52
So then you take time to I know I can do this.
47:55
And then you think back, Oh yes, I did that really well.
47:58
I did this really well. So you must take time when
48:00
something's gone well to actually say well done me and
48:03
reflect on actually that you did well and say I do have that
48:07
capability. I can do that and and use that
48:12
for for the next time. But The thing is that, you know,
48:15
for me, if when I was that young Inga starting work, I did not
48:20
believe in my ability, you know, I just didn't.
48:23
So again, have a, you know, have your manager or a peer or
48:28
someone who, who, who knows what you're, how you're working or
48:31
what you're doing just to give you some feedback, to give you
48:34
some boutique and some perhaps some positive constructive
48:39
feedback as well. You know, so not, not everything
48:42
is just wonderful in your grade. I mean, to me, I think it's much
48:44
better to have some realistic feedback, but you know, give you
48:47
some few, few really positive tips, but also then just say a
48:50
few things you can work on because that also once you've
48:52
had time to reflect on that, it can really help you get over
48:56
perhaps some issues that you know you have.
48:58
Don't don't waste time getting feedback.
49:00
That's just all about what a fantastic job you've done.
49:03
You know, it needs to be really real.
49:06
I found that's the best. Thanks, Singer.
49:08
There's a kind of follow up question to that, which would be
49:12
any advice to managers and leaders on making sure that
49:15
their team members feel as confident as they can.
49:19
Or if you notice A-Team member lacking in self-confidence, how
49:23
how do you kind of approach that in the right way?
49:27
Well, if it's in a team environment and you, and you see
49:30
that someone is, is really a bit nervous and often it can come
49:34
out, somebody might speak, but you can hardly hear them because
49:37
they also think they're speaking loudly, but they're not.
49:40
And then nobody can really hear them.
49:41
And then someone speaks over them and then they get even
49:43
more, you know, nervous the next time and they're lacking common
49:47
as you know, and they can all sort of build up.
49:49
So as a, as a manager in a team environment, and this can be a
49:52
virtual or a physical environment, it doesn't matter.
49:55
But if you do know someone who lacks confidence or knows that
50:00
there is someone who doesn't usually speak, please make sure
50:02
they have the time to do it. And the way I think it's, it's
50:06
best to do it, It's not to when you're so you've, you know,
50:08
someone's just said something. Well, that's a really great
50:11
point. But I think so and so has
50:14
something really good to say because I know that they've got
50:17
this experience. So you, you give them a little
50:19
bit of warm up time before they are to come in.
50:23
You know, you don't just say, oh, what do you think of this?
50:25
You sort of build them up a bit. I know you've got some
50:27
information. I know you've been working on
50:29
this. We'd love to hear some views
50:31
from you so that you're giving them a little bit of time for
50:34
their brain to go, Oh my goodness, my manager's just
50:36
asking me to speak. I've got to speak on this.
50:38
The manager can do that and it's very, very helpful so that
50:42
you're not putting people immediately on the spot and
50:44
they're all, you're already getting this slightly warm
50:46
feeling because they're already giving you some compliments
50:49
because they, they trust and they know you've got the right
50:51
knowledge. So that's, that's one thing you
50:53
can do in a, in an environment where there are several people
50:57
when you're just on your own with them.
50:59
I think the best thing is to try and listen to them to understand
51:03
and let them talk to you as to what it was that they were
51:06
particularly nervous about what why were they showing a lack of
51:10
confidence that day and see if you can help break that down.
51:13
Now. This can take a long time.
51:16
I said I got I always offered promotion and I said no.
51:19
I have seen this throughout my career as I've got more senior.
51:23
They've been wonderful and she's mainly the women I've I've
51:27
rarely had to persuade a man to take a job, but women have tried
51:30
to promote them and they said no, it can't possibly.
51:34
And then I've had to spend a lot of time understanding what it is
51:37
that they think they can't do. Why are they lacking confidence?
51:40
Once it took me nearly a year to get a woman to say yes to a job.
51:44
That's how long some of this stuff can take because it's
51:46
there's so much in your head. But when she took it, she did a
51:52
fantastic job and she looked, she said to me after she she
51:55
started, she said, I do not know why I didn't take it.
51:58
It's just I love this job. I'm good at it, you know, and
52:02
it's fantastic. And so you do have to sometimes,
52:04
you know, jump in the deep end. Well, what a fantastic manager
52:08
you are to spend a year persuading someone.
52:11
A lot of people wouldn't do that.
52:12
But that's, you know, I've been learning a lot about, you know,
52:15
the coaching manager and that's, and that's how you get the best
52:18
from people if you believe in them.
52:19
But Inga, was there any last pieces of advice you want to
52:24
give? Or if there's one thing you'd
52:26
like listeners to take away when it comes to self-confidence,
52:29
what might that be? Yeah.
52:31
So there's confidence and it's maybe a lack of confidence in
52:35
sort of taking a job, a lack of confidence in going and turning
52:40
up to an even even a networking conference where you have to go
52:44
and say hello to people that you don't know and things.
52:46
That is all. There are many moments, you
52:48
know, in in your life, but one of the things is, is often this
52:52
public speaking which puts really can make people very,
52:57
very nervous, even if it's not real public speaking, but it's
53:00
even in an office environment. And I think the best way to do
53:04
that is actually be videoed and practise and practise because
53:09
you'd be amazed if you actually watch yourself on the video.
53:12
You get your little tips and if you can't afford to have a
53:17
professional do a little session with you, you know, for a couple
53:20
of hours, it's, it's so helpful because once you actually see
53:25
how you are speaking, you think, oh gosh, yes, I'm, I'm actually
53:30
quite good at that, aren't I always?
53:31
I know the fact quite well, but if you and any little floor
53:34
faults you have, you also see them and then you can improve.
53:38
So there is nothing like, I mean, usually it's called sort
53:40
of media training or whatever it is, but nothing like doing a bit
53:44
of that, not in a real environment, but certainly with
53:47
somebody videoing you or you can even video yourself these days,
53:50
you know, using your computer and then watch yourself
53:53
afterwards. Most people hate it.
53:55
They always say they cringe, they don't want to see
53:57
themselves in video. But it's a really great way of
53:59
gaining confidence. I think that's a great tip if
54:02
you're brave enough to do it and then practise and then, like you
54:05
say, you'll reap the rewards. Inga, that just leaves me to say
54:08
thank you so much for your time. Some great advice that I'm sure
54:12
listeners will appreciate. So thank you again.
54:15
Well, thanks Emma. Thanks for having me.
54:18
Thanks again to Inga, Anita and Muriel for joining us and to you
54:21
for listening to the APM podcast.
54:24
I hope you've left with some helpful advice to help you in
54:26
those low confidence moments and feel reassured that even CEO's
54:30
suffer from it too. So don't forget to look out for
54:33
more episodes or to rating reviews wherever you get your
54:36
podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch
54:38
with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at
54:42
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. Spotify and YouTube users,
54:47
please do also leave us your comments.
54:50
This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body
54:53
for the project profession. For more information on APM,
54:56
visit apm.org.uk.