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Mishlei 26:4-5 - To Answer or Not to Answer a Fool According to His Foolishness (Part 3) · The Mishlei Podcast

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, this is day three of Michelay 26, 4 through 5.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: And um I was because it's a new week, I was wondering how much we should or shouldn't uh review.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think I'm gonna err on the side of not reviewing.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we'll we'll do the the translation, but I I want to like jump right into uh specifically far because I don't want to like prime our minds with what we did last week.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, for what we do here, so we see with fresh eyes.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so the puzzle though is I'll ta'an kysial kiwato, pen tishvelogamata.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: Do not answer the fool uh according to or like his foolishness, pen tisfelogamata, lest you two be equated with him.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: And then anek sielki ivalto, pen yeah.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Answer uh fool according to his uh foolishness, lest he be Khachim in his eyes.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you know, actually we we we did have one unresolved thing from um imaniuharomi.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: So let's actually let's start with that uh and then we'll do a new one after that.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um okay, hold on a second here.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we are at Imaniu Haromi.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: So let's reread what he said.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even remember.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh four.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: Omar In Rooi Lo Laanos Alha Isha Xiel Kfi Dvari Direha Evelas Pshiomar Hubafiv.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Just keeps going.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's not proper for you to sorry, uh he says it's not proper for you to respond to the foolish man according to the words of his evelis that he says to you verbally, uh to you.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh yeah, uh Rak Tanya Oso Shyomar Lefi Ivalto, let him speak his foolishness.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: And you you remain with your phokma.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's funny, I don't know if the implication here is like if you were to respond to him, then you would not be remaining with your chakma.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh like but definitely rhetorically, that's like the thrust, but I don't think he's saying that yet.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: Velota nehu kfimashi tchayev evelis, or maybe he is, maybe that's the the point.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, velotane hu kfimash tihhayev evelis shi'a'ana.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: Do not respond according to what would be dictated by the foolishness that you respond.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, fine.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: So so so far, if we just stopped here, I don't think we would be clear on what he means by responding according to his foolishness, right?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: If I remember correctly, then he spells it out.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: Vinasanasiba Biz gives the reason for this.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: He's the one who started it, who started speaking words of cyclus against you.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: Who shagaram loladaber kedvarim haheim?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: And he he made me speak words like this, right?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: He made you speak words like this.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's not a way of Chachma to respond to the words of Axel.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: And therefore, if you do respond uh to him to his words that were stated by way of cyclus, then you'll be equated with him in cyclus, in his cyclus.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: Baloba Lomar Shish Tokadam, but it's not saying, oh, and now I'm remembering, it's not saying that you should be silent.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: Not respond at all.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: Rak omar shalom divra ivelas k ivalto.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: This is where it's clear.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's saying don't respond words foolishness like his foolishness.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: Rak, yeshivinobider chokma, respond to him by way of chokhma.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: Ulufikah lo omar al taan kxil stan.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's why it doesn't just say don't respond to him, it says don't respond to him like his foolishness.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's what it means when it says, lest you be equated with him also.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: If you respond to him with words of evelis, you'll be a fool like him.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, unless you respond with the way of chachma, lo yishvelo, then you will not be equated with him.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: Ad Raba, Yadif Allah of Ma'ala.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, to the contrary, you're gonna be perceived.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm assuming here, I don't know, maybe objectively or in perception as greater than him or as having an advantage.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: Even though it is what's in uh the intention in a person who's a chachom, meaning like by design, you should not respond to a xil derchivelis, lifamim sarak linhog im ktsas anashim bamida achera.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes you do need to conduct yourself this way with certain people, with another in another mode.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: Vihi laanos xil davar ivelas kivatal, which is to respond to foolishness with foolishness.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, uh, let's stop there because that's chazal.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let's stop there.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: So we pointed out last time also that this corresponds to the Targum, right?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: Targum says, Gama le sikla hikshatyusa de lo sidme le achant.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: So don't um uh raise a word with a k seal uh according to his foolishness, lest you two be acquainted with him.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: Ella malel im shatya bhaqimusah, rather, or instead speak with the fool with your chakmah, de lo nisbar binafshe de chakimahu.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: So he doesn't think in his soul that he's a chakam.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: And our summary was uh anyukalto means responding with words of foolishness, like he did to you.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's why it says kiibalto rather than al-ta'an, uh in an unqualified way.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and also why it says, I mean, it's not necessary, but uh gama ta.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um however, it sometimes is necessary for a khachum to respond in kind so the Xil doesn't think he's a Khaham.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: So, one question we left off was with is is this Mak Locus with Matudis David, who had said, I guess we are reviewing, who had said um uh that um he seemed to apply to any, it's not that well it was short enough, we could reread it.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um any divre rivu matza, right?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think was the word he uses.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh all Tashi Luxil Kasha Debre Ivelis Rivu matza.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if this is in matters of Rivimatza or in words of Rivimatzah.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh right.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the problem, is that they're gonna see you using the same kinds of words as he is.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: So that was the question number one is um is this Machalogsuis David, who seems to imply that that uh using his word, uh his foolish type of uh contentious speech will automatically make you equal um to him in people's eyes.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh okay.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then the second question is what are the parameters here?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um when you know what what makes something an exceptional case?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it's unclear, unclear whether Immanuel Haromi or the Puzz are answering this.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I I I would think it would have to give us some guidance, but yeah, I shouldn't answer.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is laboratorial.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think so.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think I read over the front.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Don't answer CLK developer instead of answering the.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I see what you're saying.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: He's not reading both Psuki in the union.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that's a good point.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: So so let me modify that then.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: So oh I actually didn't write it.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: So um so there's no evidence now.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: So um oh the audio went out.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um so um uh let's just say Immanuel Haromi's reading of Posuk.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: Is like Targum's reading of both Pasuckum, that's a good call.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um both Pasukum.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um but but Targum does sorry, why does it keep going like that?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: Targum doesn't mention exceptional cases, whereas uh whereas Emanuel ummanuel Haromial Emanuel uh Haromi um uh learns uh resolves a contradiction that way, right?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: Contradiction.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Does he have another commentary on Tosak K?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, good question.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: Let's check.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh nope, that's it.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he only quotes.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: We might as well just read what he says about Khazal.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I I don't know who knows we'll focus on.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: Rozal Darshu Kaz omer al Tanksil kibato, kasvekad uh omer aneksio kibato, loka habamila de Shmaya, Habamila Dalma, Birze ki omru al tanksio ki vato, hub makum shalyu viu divri hakora, blaaga o al-buzmoreha, o le divre aban vakata.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: So that's like the Ram at the end of Tama Torah, right?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: That um that uh which does happen to be a possible answer to our question about what are the parameters, but he says, um uh meaning, even though it's a different reading of the contradiction, it might still serve us that don't answer a fool according to his foolishness.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's in a place where his words of foolishness will not bring about a degradation of Torah and a mockery of Torah, or a degradation of its teachers, or to matters of avon and chatas.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: Umnam vem shri view litigri avon vokatas, sarat la anosam lashatkam.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so yeah.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: So the only question then is is this actually machalukus with Matsus Dovit, or Matsus Dovit said, Yeah, you're right.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: There's exceptional cases, and uh and you know, and and like you know, the Psukum are talking about probability, like most many Mishlee Psukim.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: And that might also be a um a factor in when you can respond, meaning there are people who are good at like clapbacks, you know.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh what was the thing?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: I was listening to a Tim Ferriss episode um of this new uh startup that thinks that they've made an app to teach, don't tell Ruby about this, to teach uh two-year-olds how to read.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh two or three year olds, not two years, three-year-olds how to read.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh it's basically uh just a very skilled uh gamifying of it.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: And um he was saying how like there are a lot of sham apps like this, and um and so people like accuse this as being another sham app, especially because they charge a lot of money for it.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so the guy fights with people on Twitter about it, and like when they challenge him, like the like one guy said, like, um, you know, uh, you know, this is snake oil, right?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, like a uh a scam that and and he and then the the company founder said, Oh, so this is what snake oil is, and he just like um posted a video of like three year olds like competing and reading with each other, you know.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: So like it could, but you could see someone who's not good at navigating social media, and like it backfires in the exact same way that the source David says, like, like in this case, like he showed him, he responded, and again, it's you could argue that that's with Chachma, you know, but like he's responding on Twitter by default is gonna be like Divrik Seal uh S, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, right.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: So so like it could be that there are people who are just you know good or bad at responding in a way that that knocks the guy off his uh pedestal, you know?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: So any thoughts?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: Is this a real moch locus?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm talking myself into thinking it's not a real moch locus.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's just that the the difference in interpretation, but not in in principle that Ms.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: Dove would grant.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: And look, there are clear cases throughout our Massorah.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't know about in Tanakh, but like throughout our Massorah where where you have sharp-tongued people like Ibn Ezra and Ibn Kaspi and Rambaum, where they you know they they the mo they mock the guy, you know.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um the Gemara does that, yeah, right, right.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the Gemara is slightly different, I guess, because I uh that's I Davka didn't use the Gemara because in the Gemara they're talking to each other and it's also Khaqamen.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas here it's like Ibn Ezra will make fun of the Karaites' names in the commentary.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if they saw his uh commentary, you know.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's like you're really stooping to the level of mockery?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I'm Ibn Ezra.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well that will make sense giving you a sham, you know, those Ushaline peace, loving, harmony learners.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, saying it's only in terms of the words of the Bachma.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Monsieur Stubbin is uh so that's what I'm not sure about.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: Is it Divri Chachma as in sorry, is it Divri Rivumatza, Matters of Strife, and um Ma'ama Recha.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, yeah, is it matters of strife?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, or is it the content of your words or the like the character of your words?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh in hefers being Ma'amar Rechal and Ma'amar sounds like his emphasis on the kinds of the kind of speech you're doing, not the matters about which you're you're you're arguing.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: He's responding, but in the same with the like talking the same matters, but not in the same manner that he's responding.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: So uh it's possible that well, certainly not just possible, in certain areas, you won't be able to respond with Hoffman because it's not a matter of Hoffman in the first place, right?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like if he is like um, or at least it'd be very, very remote.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like let's say like he makes fun of your um, I'm just cycling through all the various Trump nicknames that he said about people throughout the year, right?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like if he calls like like if he calls uh Marco Rubio Little Marco, right?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's not a matter that is subject to being refuted with Chachma because it's not in the realm of Chachma, right?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: So the only option is to just insult him back or like or ignore it, yeah, right, right, right, right.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: But so I guess Benji, you're asking about a case where uh maybe we mentioned this, right?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: What about a case where he engages you on a matter of Chachma, but in a derehocipis?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: And now the question is, yeah, what do you do, right?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: So so we said for the Matsudis oh, we said for the Matsudis David, yeah, I guess we are from the Sudas David that uh I think we ended up uh saying that the Sukim are not legislating what you should do.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: These are factors.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: So one factor is since he's insulting you, you may end up being perceived by other people as um just like this guy.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: On the other hand, there's a danger that the fool's gonna walk away thinking that he's refuted Torah, and then if there are bystanders, then they'll also think that this is um uh that the fool won.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: So you may need to respond in a manner of Chachma about the Dabar Chachma, even though he's insulting you, right?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's what we said last time.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: So the question now is would Matsudis David say that there's room for responding to him in the Derch Sichlus, right?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: And again, given his comments uh summarizing Hazal, sorry, given yeah, uh Immanuel Rumi's comments about Hazal here, is you could see a case where where they're insulting Torah in a manner that is substantial, but you have to knock the guy down um to win the the the the uh perception battle, you know, uh to to protect Kabul de Torah.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh I'm inclining, I don't want to spend all the time on this, I'm inclined to say that like there's no actual machlokas here.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think in practice we should treat this as these are all factors, you know, and they're interpreting the psukim differently, but but not necessarily machlokas in substance.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, let's go on now to um uh our friend um why am I forgetting his name?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: Shashus, yeah.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: I knew it was like a weird shin name, right?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: Roshes Benyitzka Groni.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh why don't people know the kids anymore, right?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's not uh one of one of those many, many uh uh ghazal names that fell out of favor.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh why is this uh where am I here?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, here we go.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I put him in the back of the packet if you want to see him there, or you can look on the screen.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so here's what he says.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: And uh uh where's the start?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: On the bottom of the last page?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um Al Tan Xiel the Gomer.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: Ba'avur Okay, Bavur she is rachik adam midibur hanavalos.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: Since a person uh distances himself from uh speech, uh like you know, uh scoundrel speech, right?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, which I think is how he learned the last one.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh well, we're gonna actually go back.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, actually, let's read the last one now.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, shot Luxus Ves uh Lukhamor uh gave uh Vishilim, I think, yeah, right.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so um a whip to a horse or bridle to or whatever, something something animal implements, and then but um uh a rod to the back of fools.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: So Yomar, so ki afil xilim bhochiheno osam for that even xilim when we rebuke them, in tohliasum bedavarim uklalus ubi gidufim.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: You should not chastise them with uh ugly words and curses and insults with haraphos and and uh you know uh yeah, whatever.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: You shouldn't permit the tongue or loosen the tongue to speak um uh you know in a in a um there's a better word than scoundrel.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: What how do you translate Nival Path?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Disgusting.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, disgusting is good.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh yeah, disgusting speech.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Ava im Nira Liyasram Nyasar Osam Bishotim.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: If you do want to chastise them, chastise them with rods.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Kasher Nanhi Kasus, Vahakamor, I de hashot, just like you do that with animals.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's how you should uh conduct yourself with a fool, with a power of a shavit hamusar, not with insults.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know what's interesting?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: I think in this country, or I don't know about other countries, but um um in this country now, um obviously people I think actually I don't know statistics, people seem to be against corporal punishment for kids, right?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think there's probably gonna be people who say that using insulting words is better for the kid than hitting them, right?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think that you can make several arguments that that's not the case.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: One is the argument he's making, which is that you might end up ruining your own character by engaging in that kind of speech.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um what was it?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: What about through hitting him?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: So that that there is a separate risk of through hitting him, which is that you are um uh like for for people, I think the reason why we should be against corporal punishment in general is because I think people are not as self-regulated.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: So the adults who are administering the punishments are outletting their own psychological stuff on the kid and then it could get out of control.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but it even when it gets out of control, it's a different problem than dir Navala, right?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you are let's say for example, I I'm oversimplifying this, but like like I think we are all familiar with the fact that there is a way to let off steam or aggression through physical activity, right?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: But insulting another human being or or causing them to feel pained by your words, I think uh affects you in a different way by desensitizing you to people's emotions or by creating like uh you know this um this ego-rooted power rush, which could also happen when you when you when you when you hit them.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: But like I'm saying, like it is it's a more it's it's more of a direct corruption to the the what Ravin Yun would call like the rua rather than the nephesh.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's more like a psychological harm to you than a instinctual poor outlet, you know, or like something like that, you know.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: There's a corruption of the ruhma malala, you know, the the the uh the speech which is more connected to your humanity.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um so that's one argument.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh also I think it it ends up backfiring sometimes in a different way, because for all of you who have taught in high school, right, like like I do think that teachers get into are prone to getting into ego battles with kids.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I do think, again, I I've never experienced this in the classroom, but like back in the day when you would uh hit the kid, I don't think they hit you back.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, like uh you know, and and I don't think and I also don't think that they they um insult you back.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like I just can't imagine that that was a very common thing except for extreme cases, you know.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: So like it it doesn't leave to this like escalation, you know, uh in the same way, right?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: They might go and pop your tires, you know, but yeah, but like they're not gonna, you know, um, yeah.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so that so I I just wanted to point that out is that I think that my my point being that I think in the in today people would recoil from a authority figure using corporal punishment, but they wouldn't recoil from, let's say, a coach or uh uh let's say certainly coach using harsh language with the players, and maybe not even with a teacher using harsh language with with a student, but it could be worse, you know, than the hitting.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, now we get to arbsukum.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: Al Tanksio of Gomer.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: So since, as we saw in the last classic, a person should distance himself from uh from a disgusting speech, Amar Kikasher, Yisva Kheach um Imaxio, la nos oso kivalto, it's saying that when you argue with a fool, wait, sorry, I just missed the conjugation, kikasher yisva keh imaxil, when you excuse me, uh argue with the fool to answer him according to his foolishness, kalomar ka asher roi la nos adjur evalto.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: So this is not like Demonio Haromi, not when you respond to him in kind, but when you respond as his foolishness deserves, okay.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: So meaning you've taken the message from the last possible, which is that when you rebuke the fool, don't insult him.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: Instead, um uh you know respond to his foolishness in an intelligent way.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, then he said with it with a hitting, but now he says, Um, Ki hai roy lanos lo bacharafos of.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's interesting.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: It would be fitting.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: For you to respond to him with insults and uh and degradations.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: Apha Bikhain, in Tobhatya Lash and Ladaver and Navala.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: So this is a very interesting.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think this is a subtle argument here, right?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: What is it?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't this contradict what he said before?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: He said, you know, you shouldn't respond with Navalas.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: Now he's saying it's uh it would be uh higher roy lados, right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: So uh listen stop.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: I know we haven't read the whole thing yet, but I think there's an easy uh resolution to that.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: So Mimana Shah, is it is it does this guy deserve to be responded to with Kharov Zakeduvin or not?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: And and if so, then why don't you do it?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if not, then you know Well, isn't he saying in terms of you?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's not good for you to use it both, and that's both this previous boss.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: It is okay to hit a guy sometimes, but not to ever use the okay good.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: So so so then uh so I think that's correct.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: But then so what does he mean higher roi lanos low but maybe it would be better, like if not for your own imperfections, just in terms of responding to him, it may be better.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the interesting thing, right?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: Is objectively, like, I I think this is actually okay, I'll say it first and then I'll I'll say the application.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Objectively speaking, yeah, this guy's insulting you, he deserves to be insulted back, but it's gonna ruin your character, right?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so so don't so you should you should be uh or it's gonna have a bad effect on you or involve a virus or whatever.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, but here's the thing is psychologically, I think this is a very effective message.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think one of the reasons why a person is prone to responding in kind is they say, well, he deserves it.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: But that's a comp so the answer is he's saying, yes, he does.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: But that does not justify you ruining your own, shooting yourself in the foot, right?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: In the in the Mito's foot because of that, right?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: That that's the it's not this is uh, I don't think this is what people mean when they say the English proverb, two wrongs don't make a right.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: But this is a subcategory of that, which is that just because he did something wrong to you does not mean that there's a cause for you to engage in reckless and harmful behavior.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, justified or unjustified, if I go up to a person and I insult them and they deserve it versus if they don't deserve it, I'm still harming my my my character by doing that.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's just like a nice sharp uh point here.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, now how's he do the second half?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: Lest um you be uh for degradation in the in the eyes of the hearers, uh, and your value andor your level, your estimation and the value of the Xil be one in their eyes.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because they hear you speak uh disgustingly, okay, and they don't, they're not uh um uh I say they're not perceptive or they're not like looking carefully at the fundamental matter.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: Mahu imhadin imah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: What is at the root of his argument with you?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: Oh imaxil or with the with a Xil.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, Mahu hadin imach o imaxil, meaning I think who's in the right, okay, or who has the right uh uh side of the argument.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Inkayen, if so, toha free sh flo to daber lo azus.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: Better for you to be silent and to not speak uh brazenly against him.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: Amnam yihi havikuach beinacha ube naxio, but nachas update umutuka.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: Uh rather the matter should be um an argument between you and between the Xil in what is this argument?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: A uh it's gotta be a better word than argument.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh a discourse.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: Discourse, yeah, that's good.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: A discourse.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um you're getting that from the Ramban translation of the Vikhua?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: No, okay.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's disputation.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, with uh Banachas, um pleasantly and Bediri Tokafa and words of rebuke, uh Reva that are sweet, umutuka, uh pleasant and sweet.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: Lola nos azos penyi, chased khashomea.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Not that he uh you should respond to him uh brazenly, lest uh the listener um uh I don't know if this is shame you like chesed who or uh um I know some people say chesed can be related to chashud, like uh like Hashad, like suspect you of being like him.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: Not sure what it is.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so this is another sharp point which I think is not contradicting what we said before, but what what's the uh but practically speaking, this is an interesting point that emerges from here, which I think we remarked on last time we learned uh the previous pasag.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: So what what what is he saying you should do?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: So the case here is the guy the Xil deserves a foolish response.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and he deserves Tokaka.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: So don't give in to speaking to him in kind because it's ruining your character and people will will equate you with him.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: Rather, what should you do?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's an exercise of his previous point.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it seems to me like this is our explanation of why not why it's not true that the Lahti Alasha.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe what we said before about your character isn't really what he said.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is why I think.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: Well, so the reason why I was saying uh about the character, I was carrying that over from the the previous one.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh now he didn't say he didn't say why, but uh in Lahati Alasha Navel Bhadvar Nivala, I I I learned that kind of really closer to what um what you were saying about you're you're corrupting your speech, you know.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: Now you could say that that's not what he means.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe he means he's referring to the action here of Leis Navel, not the effect, and that the real reason you shouldn't do this is um is because of what he's saying here, because of the perception.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: You you could read it that way.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that's more conservative reading, I guess.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's a true true idea.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: Right, it's true.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Ellie, this is uh on this or you have a separate idea.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, well, it was a question on this, but is this Pusslick assuming then that you're having this conversation with this fool like in a public setting?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_04: If it seems to be, right?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it seems to be in how show me him.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: He's bringing in a third party here, and and he is not commenting on well, the only comment he has on what you would do if it's just you and the fool is use the the rod, right?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: But the considerations that he's mentioning here don't don't seem to all be relevant.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um if it's just you and the fool.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: But the next process will be, right?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's Penny Khahmav.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, no, okay.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um okay, all right.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: Should we let's let's read on the next one so we'll get the full picture.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: Anexio Bagomer Al Tomar, don't say im Kane.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: If so, I guess if if so from um I should not respond to him with insults, and I should just be Mohiyahim in a sweet way.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Why should I even bother speaking with him?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh in divri tochakal musur.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uqvar kalat's me menu kol tov mida.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: He's already divested himself of all every good mida.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: Why should I waste my words with him?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think this ashkis like like baltashkis, like not uh corrupt, right?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right, so in other words, yeah.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: So ain't tov, this is not good about Roy uh Lanoski Valto.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's proper to respond um according to his foolishness.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, how did that last part follow?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: Note 59 say 79.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: This is the thing we were doing.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: Comment to rock and be rabbino f shard to hokana who de bimilia de alma hu kumo asher haxil dover, I know Koraf Badri Torah, who kasher royal tamitakhom the dabira, hino banachas, lozio minakxilas.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: All right, so I mean he's he's not saying it's two different subject matters, he's saying that um that um uh habri uh bimili dishmaya would mean like rebuking him would be included in that and to to get him out of his foolishness.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so but I just didn't understand this last part.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think he's saying that when the person says an exil kivalto, yeah, it means when he speaks in evaluation.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and it's a proper response.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, actually, we'll read the second part and see if that clarifies.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe this Xil is not uh definitive in his foolishness.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: Udvarim Elu Asher Midaber Yera Lomitach who chakamb.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, interesting.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: And the um words that you the sorry, the um uh just blank.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Udbarim Elu, these words Ashur Midaber that that you speak, really.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, sorry, that he speaks.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: No, yeah, yeah, era Yeralomitach who choked.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: We're not because of his his Xilus Mukletes, but because of his Chacham'enov.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um Mahmashu Xil Gamer, not because he's a total Xil.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, as you have to make a Khakira here, right?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uli Yi Tavu Divarecha Ba'inov.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe his your words uh will be uh a fine approval in his eyes.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: Vyashu Vlahitif, and he'll turn to the good.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: Kia Khacham, Loba Adain Lakhla Ksiel Gamor, the Chachim in his own eyes, um uh has not yet come to the to into the category of the Xil Gamor.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: Mosha Ammar, I was gonna actually uh I was I immediately thought of this.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna ask a trivia question.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: How do you know that these are two different people?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because of this possible re isa ish khachaminav, tikva liksil mimeno.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um wait, isn't that the opposite?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: Have you seen a man who's wise in his own eyes?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: There is more hope for the Xil than for him, right?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't that that that's it?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see, footnote 580.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: Nope.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Let me definitely explain.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Klomar Nachon Hu Lios Xil Gamor, uh, meaning it's fitting that he be a Xil Gamor, Beshema Zeha ish, kumina khachami be inah, lomi naxil and hagamurin.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe this guy is from the chamim in their eyes, not from the Xiel.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it seems to be the opposite of the puzzle, right?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: But but let's let's let's forget the Pazak for a second.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: Let's just work with his premise that you have that you have on the Mishleik Spectrum.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't put Kakam A not here, but uh let's just pull it up.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: We might as well.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: I really gotta update this uh Mishleik Spectrum.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: I I think I should give a Sunday shear on it at some point.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, uh like and use that to update it.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, because this is already 2017, uh, and and uh things have changed a lot since then.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um okay, so right.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I have here the XIL.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um for those who are listening on the audio, um, on the left side of the spectrum, uh the last five personalities, six personalities are the worst is the Russia, then next to worst is Blial, then Bogey, then Lates.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: Those are all in the really bad category.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: Then you've got the Arum, the bad kind of Arum, and then Xil is before him, and then before the the only one before the Xil is the Ivial.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: So the way that the um that uh Rishesh bin Yatakal Gurondi is putting it is he's putting the Chachmeinav before the Ksil.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: So you're Chaqameinav first, and there's still, again, contrary to the positive, there's still hope for that guy, because maybe if he's a Khachameinav and then you show him that you're the greater Chacham or that he's not a Chacham, he'll listen to your words.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: But the KSI is totally closed off from this altogether, and then there's no way to say it.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: So, in other words, you have to be Khoshesh for a misdiagnosis that there are two reasons why this guy might be mocking you and might seem not open to Tokacha.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: One is uh he's Chachabenov, the other is he's a KXIO.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: If he's actually a Xiel, so then all the don't not rebuking the Xil uh fall uh apply, right?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_03: But if he's just a Chachobeinov, so then there's hope.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh and maybe he'll even uh agree with you.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think a good example of this, by the way, is and I think there's another project we did earlier last year or the year before that that I think bore this out.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: But like I think when you meet um very smart um but very anti-religious high school students, it is very easy to classify them as a KSEL, but they're still developing.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: So it is more likely that they're just a Khachameinov and that they've gotten away with it because they've never heard good answers or that no one's ever called them out on it, you know, in general.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, or you know, you haven't successfully been Hake Ethinov to be able to open up the psych the psyche, you know, and so it still is worthwhile to respond to them, not in kind, but with Dibri Tokaka.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh sorry, not either Dibri Tokhaka or Dibri Kachma, and then there's hope that they're gonna see and uh and change.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: But with adults, then then you know, it's still possibility, but maybe uh maybe not.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: Depends how you learn Hakyashina, right?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like uh like there's people who learn Hakeshinov as uh like uh uh provoke him, which would seem to be more in the category of Ki Ivalto, like in kind, and then there's Haki Ashinov like exposing a contradiction uh about like um I'm just making this up as a position.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if this is one position or I'm um um mixing them, but the like if the guy like say like the Ushami's version of the Ben Russia that he doesn't want you to delay the meal with all this Torah stuff, you know, and then you tell him, Oh, if that were your attitude, then you wouldn't have been redeemed in the first place, you wouldn't have this meal, you know, like you're trying to expose a contradiction or something like that.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so it depends.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what would be what would be the benefit of provoking him?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: Benefit of provoking him is that um a, I mean, I I've had various shoting on this in the first in in in different years that um the halacha is lu Fidaito should be melambdo, right?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: According to the das of the father should teach him, and I think it is a I mentioned this recently also, das often in the words of Hazal and the Rishonim means psyche or mind broadly, not intellect.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: So you want to reach the person wherever their das is.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: So for the chakam and the tam, that's intellectually, because they're open to talking.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_03: But for the seal, then the only way to get him involved is you draw him in by by angering him, and then he responds back, and now he's involved in the discussion, as opposed to just apathy or going on your way.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: I always quote the same uh uh example from Rabbi Moskowitz of the kid who I saw who was not into the discussions, like he was just didn't pick up on that wavelength that like discussions are something you should care about.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: And then the question that that I saw that got him, maybe, maybe this is the thing is is this kid was very into basketball, and Rabbi Moskowitz basically said, you know, becoming good at basketball or at any sport is no different than uh than perfecting your movements like this and just coordinating them very well.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: The only difference is like, you know, this guy is doing it like this, and the golfer is trying to get a hole in one, and like the basketball player is trying to get like an exact, an exact shot, and the kid got so angry, like as if like you think that there's nothing great about a basketball player, and then that that got him.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it was a technique that Remy Moss would use of like like pushing kids buttons uh who are not automatically engaged to get them involved, and then they get into the discussion.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: So that that's one possibility, but why you should do that.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: Not what uh Sheshus is saying, but uh yeah.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it's like that's a possibility.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right, that's a good way to say it, right?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so let's let's uh let's get this down here.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: So uh this is Rav Shashus.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right, yeah, right, right.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: Meaning maybe like, yeah, this is not pen, really, it's like like Shema, right?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh, because pen is usually negative, right?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know sometimes it could be nov and you don't answer it.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: Ah, okay.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: It would be so bad if okay, that's a good good reading.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, all right.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: So Ravshas is saying, um, in Paz Gimel, uh he mentioned that it's not good for you to permit yourself to speak uh Divir Nivala um to a Xil, uh but instead you should be Miyaser him um with a shot uh or with a with a shavit, right?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, fine.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: Shaivit hammusar, right?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: Not not a literal, a shavit.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, shavit hamusar.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, fine.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: Here um he is refuting a sorry, I guess in Posukdalid.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: In Posuk Dalid, he is refuting a Haba Amina, right?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: But the guy deserves it, right?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh his response is um be that as it may, uh, it's not going to be a good look for you, right?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: That we know that the reportation is saying, and possibly it's also bad for your your Mitos, which uh this is our interpretation um from the previous Pasuk uh interpretation.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, fine.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: So then the question in Pasukhe, um in Pasukhe, uh he's responding to a different Havamina, uh, right, which is so why should I bother with the guy at all, right?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: Let him remain a Xil, um a Xil, a Xil, okay, right?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: So um so the response is um if you knew, I think you have to draw this, if you knew for certain that he was a 100% Xil Gamor, okay, then all the Psukim, uh all the the the words of Shlomo uh warning you about the futility uh and uh and and harm of rebuking such a such a Xil Um would apply.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: But um lest he actually uh lest he actually lest he not actually be a full Xil uh but only a chakam Ba'enav, right?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: I know I'm I'm I'm I'm I think I don't think you need as many words as I just used, right?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh who might be affected uh for the good by your words.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's why you should uh respond to him.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh you should respond to him.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: And uh you know, maybe maybe you'll you'll you'll break him him out of that.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so that's a very, very important uh concept here.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, it's honestly like there probably are a lot of Xilim that are who have just never been exposed to people who can correct them or who can teach them.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: So you you might even, I mean, I think it's rare to have an adult XIL who's been a Xil for many years, but I can see it happening.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like let's say, like in we all know that you can be a Mishlaik architect within certain limited areas.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe he's a XEL in religious matters, um, but he's just never been taught otherwise.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so maybe there are really good chances that that you could uh that he's just a Kamina.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: He just thinks that the rabbis don't have answers to this, and you could you could actually like enlighten him to this, you know?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: I thought it was a nice interpretation.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: Now we have one problem, which is what did he yeah?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: Is he like saying we should always review it?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's possible.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what's the is there a downside?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: So it sounds sounds like he's saying uh uh you know, it's it's a good question, like like what if you really think he's a stil gommer?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right, do you still say maybe he might he's just a Khakam Ainov?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Is there ever a downside to rebuking a fool?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's sounds like there's always a downside to rebuking a fool, but if he's a Khakam Ainov, then the risk is worth it.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: What's the risk?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: The risk is I think that um I think that's spelled on other mislip, um uh I'll no that's I'll talk.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um what's the one about um Mohia Xil Mumo that if you rebuke Xil, it's gonna be your blemish, and one of the things is he's gonna insult you back, you know, or what was that?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you make an enemy out of him, or you know, there might be consequences in terms of the of perception, you know, as well.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I was gonna say though that um oh yeah, the question that is still remaining is the puzzle ish kachameenav take simeno sounds like it's saying the opposite of what he's saying.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: So let's actually just look at his.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: Do I have his commentary here?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: 12.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see if it's in the packet.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: I might not have gotten that far.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Raisa Ish Khacham Bainov.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, that's Rashi.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: Uh here we go.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: Risha Ish Khachmeinav Klomar Im Raisa Adam Shu Bainov Khacham.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: So you see a guy who is Khacham uh Ba'inov, and everything that he does and says is good and beautiful, beautiful and good in his eyes.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_03: And he does not uh push aside his das based on the das of others, uh, but he uh relies on his das and everything.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: What you should hope in truth that he becomes a Xil.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: Is that what he's saying?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: What uh who repeats his foolishness?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that's the um, I think that's uh the the vomit the dog vomit possible.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: Kikel Shavel Kel, uh Xil Shone Boto.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: Just like a dog returns to his vomit, then a Xiel will return to his foolishness.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, maybe, right?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because then in other words, maybe you get into a different this is speculation on my part, but I'll I'll say this now and then we'll stop for today.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_03: But like um that um at least it become becomes a a total XEL, so then there are separate are there separate routes for the Xiel to learn?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: I I guess it depends on how he learns the vomit puzzok.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't know.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: All right, let's let's just think about this for tomorrow about how he's learning the puzzle, and then uh and then we'll we'll see someone else tomorrow.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Pleeton Netter.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, see you guys.