Latest / Your Mic / Chart-Toppers vs. Difference-Makers: A Case for Independent Podcasts

Transcript

Chart-Toppers vs. Difference-Makers: A Case for Independent Podcasts · Your Mic

• 0:00
  The best podcasts in the world rarely hit top 25 charts, they don't feature celebrity
• 0:05
  hosts, and they may never land a Netflix deal yet, they actually change lives.
• 0:11
  Hey, it's Freddy Cruise, and during this episode of Your Mic, I'm joined by Earworthy's
• 0:15
  Frank Racheope.
• 0:17
  Frank, Champions of much bigger sea of the table for indie podcasters, he exposes how
• 0:22
  celebrity-driven shows warp what new listeners think podcasts can become, and he reframes
• 0:28
  ROI around human capital and relationships instead of CPMs.
• 0:33
  If you enjoy Frank's insights as much as I do, please consider sharing with a fellow
• 0:36
  podcaster in your life.
• 0:39
  Thanks.
• 0:43
  What is a hill that you are willing to die on?
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  What is your hot take right out the gate when it comes to listening to indie podcasts
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  that you're drawing the line of the sand?
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  What is it?
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  The answer is the hill I'm going to die on is independent podcasters need to have a larger
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  role in the entire industry and not be shoved to the side because these large networks
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  now have decided that, hey, we can make a lot of money in podcasting, so we will try to
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  take over the industry, which is really what's happening if we're not careful.
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  It seems like there's so much sizzle, but the steak is really within the indie space
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  in all these people that you write about every week with your newsletter, ear-worthy.
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  This is a perfect example of how these big companies don't consider independent podcasters
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  in the equation at all.
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  What Netflix did is, I believe, is a lot of their newer podcasts are from the Ringer
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  Network, the Bill Simmons Network, and so they're popular podcasts, their network-supported
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  podcasts, and so they're going to have their own, the way I understand it is, they'll
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  have their own screen, so I think the way, you know, how Netflix does horizontal rows,
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  so let's drama, thrillers, comedy, documentary, and so forth, so I'm assuming that podcasts,
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  they may have a button on the top, but I think it'll be a horizontal row.
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  So in our article, what we said is, okay, why would you do that when think about how
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  Netflix is, think about how it's constructed if you can picture it?
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  Let's take for a week-aven example of this, science fiction movies on Netflix are one
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  of their biggest and most least watched genres on the entire Netflix platform, okay?
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  Why would they not have a independent sci-fi podcast, sci-to-side with the movies?
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  So there's a podcast that's independent from the UK called every single sci-fi podcast
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  ever.
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  They started at the beginning of the century, they're into the 1950s and 60s, and it is
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  a wonderful show.
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  And so if you think about this, who is attracted to the most popular events, sci-fi people?
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  How many people go to Comic-Con, and there's more festivals than just Comic-Con, there's
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  different ones, they are packed with people.
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  So that means that there's already a built-in attention towards the genre.
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  So why would you not play something like every single sci-fi podcast movie ever right
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  next to all the movies?
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  So someone can say, I'll click on it and listen to the genre that I'm going to about to watch.
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  But you know, that's not something they consider because they don't think about independent
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  podcasts.
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  It's all the most visible podcasts, and that's really all that is, because they don't
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  think anybody else would listen to a podcast that isn't part of the sphere of Spotify,
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  Amazon, and I Heart, and Sirius XM.
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  Exactly.
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  I think that you and I are two P's in the same pod when it comes to this mindset because
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  I see the news that comes out.
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  It seems like it's almost every week, if not every other day, that there's a big media
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  company that's doing this with this brand and this with this brand.
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  And I'm like, yeah, also, there's some really cool stuff happening within the indie space
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  and people that are not, who shows have not been acquired by the big networks.
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  And in my opinion, these are the people that are actually out there changing lives.
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  And not to, not to discount anybody who's got a show within a network because, you know,
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  they're doing their thing and everyone's got to earn their money and everyone wants
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  to make a living.
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  And there's probably a good number of indie podcasters that would like to have that level
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  of success and more power to them if they acquire that success.
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  I'm just saying that there is so much great audio content that is out there in the podcast
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  universe that seems to get overshadowed by all the major headlines.
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  I actually was on a podcast a while back where we talked about this race to sign celebrities
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  on these network platforms.
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  And it seems like every week there's some new celebrity that has their own show.
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  And the shows seem to work like this.
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  If they're going to interview people, the celebrity is going to interview people.
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  And this is the same marketing language.
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  And when they do it, these conversations are going to be unfiltered, controversial and
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  opinionated.
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  And they say the same thing all the time.
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  And so what you end up getting is a celebrity, not accustomed to doing interviews with guests
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  that are already pre-chosen by the network that are guests that will be easy to handle.
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  Not somebody that maybe has a one word to answer that the celebrity will struggle with.
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  And then when I've listened to these, and basically they're all the same.
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  And then you counterpoint that Freddie with a independent podcast that you and I actually
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  know well, better called Daddy, with Reena Friedman Watts now.
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  B, when it comes to being an interviewer is far superior to any celebrity that I can
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  think of.
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  And she has this, what I thought is a great differentiator is her dad provides wisdom
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  during the show.
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  Those two elements, her skill as an interviewer and the second part with her dad, none of
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  those celebrities shows have that.
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  And why is that Freddie?
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  Because they're just counting on people listening because it's the celebrity.
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  They don't even really have to be that good.
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  First, I will say that Reena is one of the most gifted interviewers in the podcast space,
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  hands down period, end of story.
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  Y'all can fight me in the comments because you cannot convince me otherwise.
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  And then I will also say that to piggyback on what you were talking about, it's the same
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  kind of formula with celebrities where they go and have these interesting conversations
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  raw.
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  Authentic is in other words, it's just so overused.
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  But when the podcast consumer goes and listens to this, the John Doe celebrity podcast with
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  the unfiltered authentic truth, well, the consumer is like, this show sucks.
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  And then they go and tell their friend, hey, Frank, I listened to the John Doe celebrity
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  podcast and this show sucks.
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  And then all of a sudden, you get this mindset from the everyday podcast consumer that there
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  are too many podcasts.
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  Well, of course, you think that because all the people, the only shows that you're listening
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  to are celebrity hosted shows is the same formula.
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  And they all suck.
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  Oh, I like it.
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  You're getting excited like me.
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  This is great.
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  Yes.
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  No.
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  Absolutely.
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  What you said earlier is true is I do give credit to the networks and that they do have
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  some quality shows.
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  There's no doubt about it.
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  Not everything on there is garbage and I totally get all that.
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  But on the flip side of that, do we really want a podcast infrastructure where the only
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  shows we have are either celebrity interviews or true crime podcasts?
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  I have nothing against true crime.
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  Some of them are absolutely wonderful.
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  There's some great independent true crime podcasts like the murder, the murder sheet and
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  Femilla side, but I don't, I don't really want to have a media format when there's only
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  those two genres that are included in it.
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  So I mean, that's one of the things that's happening in broadcast TV.
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  It's either game shows because they're cheap to produce or those, those franchises like
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  there's nine law and orders, 17 NCIS's, Chicago fire, police, EMTs, dog catchers, whatever.
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  And so they're down to just a couple of genres there in broadcasting TV.
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  Podcasting is better than that.
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  And plus the other part of that is podcasting's roots are independent podcasters.
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  The people in the basement making podcasts 20 years ago, that's the origin of podcasting.
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  It's not TV, even radio has a different origin story than podcasting does.
• 10:03
  Yeah, absolutely.
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  And shifting gears because years ago, now you have the ear worthy newsletter, but once
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  upon a time you actually hosted a podcast.
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  So I'm wondering if you were to resurrect the podcast and you can for listeners who are
• 10:20
  not familiar with what you used to do, tell them the name of the podcast.
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  And if you were to revive it, what would you talk about?
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  Oh, my God.
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  Okay, this is a thorny question, Freddie.
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  Oh no.
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  You're just throwing out the fastballs you really are.
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  I was thinking maybe like a 75 mile an hour splitter, but you're going right with the
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  gas balls.
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  Wow.
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  So I've told the story before, but I'll make it really fast.
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  When I started a podcast and it was 2011 in the beginning, I had this idea, like a lot
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  of indie podcasters, you know, I'm just going to make this.
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  I don't have to do any marketing.
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  It's so good people just listen to it.
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  And it was called make a connection and it was about how to communicate better in the
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  corporate world, because that's where I worked for 37 years.
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  And I did 17 episodes.
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  The same number of episodes I did is the same number of listeners I had.
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  They were equal 17 episodes, 17 listeners, not every episode, I mean total.
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  So at the end of 17, yes, I know.
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  So I decided, okay, you know, either I'm terrible at this or I'm not doing any marketing
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  or a combination of both.
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  So I got rid of, got rid of that, deleted it so no one could ever hear it again, because
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  it's frankly quite embarrassing.
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  I did look it up and could not find it.
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  Oh, I know.
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  Thank God, because I knew someone would.
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  But then, then COVID came and like a lot of people, we were bored inside.
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  So I have a brother who lives in New Hampshire.
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  So we decided to do a podcast during COVID called false facts.
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  So it was in 2020 and considering what was going on, we thought this is timely.
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  So false facts basically was about, it wasn't political.
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  Like we weren't going to, we're not going to do a political fact or fact checking on
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  what politicians said.
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  That was sort of a fool's iron.
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  But it was just about things that you thought were missed, that weren't true.
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  So I'll give you one frivolous example.
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  Our first episode and our first little segment was about, if you dropped a penny off the
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  top of the Empire State Building and it landed on the ground, if it hit somebody in the
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  head, would it kill them?
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  Oh, so the answer is no, but I think God, yeah, I know, because I've read that somewhere.
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  Yes.
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  So did we, and then, so that was like our first segment.
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  Our second segment was about Katherine, the great from Russia.
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  She was a charmer, wasn't she?
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  Oh my gosh.
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  Well, she, I mean, I know, I don't want to get x-rated in that, but I don't know if you
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  know that she was also well known for our strange intimate proclivities.
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  I didn't know that.
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  I just knew that she was not a very kind person and that's putting it mildly.
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  Yes, exactly.
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  So there's a theory that the reason, or when she died, she died in the midst of a odd romantic
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  encounter to put this lightly.
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  That's the rumor, but that's not really the way she died.
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  So this is an example of the things that we pulled to do, to the show.
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  And we did a couple of shows and then COVID was over and then we both went back to our jobs
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  and that just forgot about it.
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  But I have to say, we actually did really enjoy that.
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  It was a lot of fun, a lot of fun.
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  Talk about Earworthy and actually before we have you talk about Earworthy, which
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  is, by the way, one of my favorite podcast newsletters, y'all have got to check out Frank's
• 14:26
  newsletter, Earworthy.
• 14:28
  And I was a fan before what I'm about to tell you is that Frank had some very nice words
• 14:33
  to say about Reena and a conversation that she had with me and it was, and I got to thank
• 14:41
  you, Frank, because it really meant and means the world to me that you wrote what you wrote
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  about me.
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  So thank you, thank you for that.
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  And having said all that, again, I was reading Frank's newsletter long before that article
• 14:57
  came, came out.
• 14:58
  So I was like, imagine my surprise, but I'm like, whoa, wait a minute, is this one of my
• 15:03
  favorite newsletter guys writing that about me?
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  But please tell, tell, tell my friends who are listening about your newsletter and what
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  it does for the indie podcast or community.
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  Oh, well, thank you, Freddie.
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  First of all, for someone as accomplished, talented, and experienced as you, those words
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  mean a lot to me.
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  So thank you.
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  I appreciate it.
• 15:24
  And you certainly deserve the praise that we provided for you because you are really
• 15:30
  one of the great talents.
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  And if anything, you're a shining example of the talent of people who are podcasters
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  in the independent world.
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  So thank you for that.
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  You continue to show that, listen, independent podcasters are not second-rate.
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  They're first-rate.
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  They just need a chance.
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  So thank you.
• 15:52
  I appreciate it.
• 15:53
  And based on your comments, also, let me know when I'll send you, then you'll send
• 15:56
  both of that money to you after the show is over.
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  This show is over.
• 16:03
  Oh, man.
• 16:04
  No, but please, yeah, your newsletter, very, very, it's so, there's such a
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  variety in the shows that you write about.
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  And so let's talk about how you come up with the shows that you decide to cover every
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  week.
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  Sure.
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  If I could go back for a second and sort of give you a brief history of ear-wisey.
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  So it started, let's see.
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  So now it's 18 years ago, right at the beginning of podcasting, and it started as podcast
• 16:39
  reports.
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  And it was much too early in the podcast story for anybody to pay attention because you're
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  thinking now 2009, 2010, not a lot of people even know what podcasts are, no less wanted
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  to read about them.
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  So it lasted a few years and then we folded our tent and went away until 2017.
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  And that's when we came back.
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  And by that time, then podcasting and now, you know, grown in stature, there were a lot
• 17:13
  of more people listening, and of course that growth continues to accelerate, and more
• 17:19
  people listen to podcasts, they more, they want to read about, well, where can I hear,
• 17:24
  you know, good podcasts?
• 17:25
  And so that certainly helped ear-worthy.
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  But in the process, when we started in 2017 to now, 2025, we underwent, I think, a great
• 17:37
  metamorphosis, which I find so refreshing because in the first couple of years, Freddie,
• 17:44
  all we did was report on network-supported podcasts that sent us marketing material,
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  Spotify, our I heart, serious exam.
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  So basically, they would send this material, we would change some of it and publish it.
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  And that went on for like a couple of years and, you know, we did get readers largely
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  because those network podcasts, a lot of people listened to them.
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  So they wanted to read about them too.
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  But then a few years ago, we decided, this is just not only is it, not what we want to
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  do, it's not even fun.
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  Because we would, they would send us a press release and then we would try to inject a
• 18:26
  little of our own creativity and they get criticized by them saying, this is not exactly
• 18:32
  what we really want you to say.
• 18:34
  And so we got to the point where we're like, we don't actually work for you.
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  You don't pay us.
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  So we were getting into those disagreements.
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  So we decided to jettison all of the netizens network-supported podcasts, God.
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  Now we only report on independent podcasts.
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  That's it.
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  If you're not, our definition of independent is a little broader than people may think.
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  But.
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  Okay, but going back to that, were these, were these, were these big companies expecting
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  you to either copy and paste the press release as it, as it was presented to you?
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  Or were they expecting a copy and paste and kind words about what it was instead of
• 19:20
  a rather, for lack of a better term, sort of like brutal, brutally honest take on X,
• 19:26
  Y, Z podcast presented by this corporation?
• 19:29
  Yes, the former, they want, you know, they simply wanted a flattery and compliments, so
• 19:34
  more people would listen.
• 19:35
  And so I remember once, I'll probably get in trouble for saying this, but we did our,
• 19:41
  we did an article on an iHeart podcast and it was something commendable.
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  So iHeart does have a very vibrant LGBTQ, like network, they really do.
• 19:59
  They put out a lot of podcasts, but weirdly, and this is the thing I couldn't wrap my
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  head around, on the flip side of that, they have podcasts where they have a political
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  podcast where they have people attacking those same people that they have podcasted.
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  So we wrote that in the article saying, okay, how where does this?
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  You have podcasts and both send in the spectrum and you have the one group attacking the
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  other group for which you have podcasts.
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  They did not like that at all, so that was an issue.
• 20:30
  And then the same thing with Spotify as well.
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  We started to criticize them and then we don't get anything from them.
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  iHeart to their credit, they still send this stuff and they have great people.
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  I love their marketing people, they're wonderful, but the network itself is, they just a lot
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  of inconsistencies when you have these big companies that publish 2000 podcasts because
• 20:57
  sometimes they, you cannot get a feel for their, if they have a brand or whatever.
• 21:02
  There's some smaller networks that have a brand that you can wrap your head around.
• 21:07
  There's a small network called next chapter podcasts, they've, they've this entire ecosystem
• 21:14
  of what's called play on Shakespeare.
• 21:16
  They take Shakespearean plays, they recreate them in everyday modern English so you have
• 21:23
  a better understanding of them and they put them on as audio podcasts, they're fabulous.
• 21:28
  I was always intimidated by Shakespeare until I started listening to them.
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  Now I can't wait till, wait till they come out.
• 21:36
  I mean, they're just wonderful, but I know what I'm getting in this smaller network that
• 21:41
  I'm going to.
• 21:43
  I don't know what I'm getting when I go to some of the larger networks because there's
• 21:47
  not, there's nothing consistent that brand is so large and expansive that you're not
• 21:52
  sure what you're going to get.
• 21:57
  I don't know if this is an accurate analogy, but it's the first one to come to mind.
• 22:01
  It's the difference between a local burger joint and a big chain where the big chain is
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  like all things to all people and they've got all this that and the other and everything
• 22:15
  is mass produced and there's probably, you know, I wouldn't say there's no thought to
• 22:20
  it because there's obviously thought put to it.
• 22:22
  It's just mass produced versus the solo location and the cows are, you know, they're grown
• 22:33
  right across the street and the cheese is locally sourced as are the vegetables and the
• 22:38
  potatoes and all that other stuff.
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  I don't know.
• 22:41
  No, you're right.
• 22:43
  And to go back to what we talked about offline before we started, you were telling me
• 22:47
  about the show that the Houston podcast for the organization, I think it's a real
• 22:54
  reorganization and what they do is they try to help people who are relocating the Houston
• 22:59
  learn about the city.
• 23:01
  The Houston bound podcast with Mandy and Chase, yeah.
• 23:04
  I mean, that's absolutely wonderful and if I could say that's essence and the greatness
• 23:11
  of the niche part of podcasting is that, okay, I know the Houston could be wrong on this
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  Friday.
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  I think it's the third largest city in the nation.
• 23:20
  Fourth, unless we have taken number three in Chicago, I think is New York, LA or what were
• 23:30
  the other way around?
• 23:31
  Then Chicago, then Houston.
• 23:32
  Okay.
• 23:33
  Well, it should be third.
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  That's how I'm going to get ahead of that.
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  It should be third.
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  But anyway, so I mean, that's a lot of people, that's a lot of people, but the numbers of
• 23:43
  people that are still moving the Houston on a regular basis, okay, that's not going
• 23:48
  to be a five million number.
• 23:50
  So you're getting a smaller number and that's what I love about that is it's like, all
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  right, we're not going to get too many people listen to this podcast.
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  We may only get 2000, but it's the 2000 people that really want to listen to it and are
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  going to get value from the podcast.
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  That's what you get from independent podcasting that you don't get from the others.
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  And one quick example, there's this woman named Kim Newlove.
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  She has a podcast that we reviewed called Prariesburg, Ohio.
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  She does the exact same thing that the realtors do for Houston, except that Prariesburg, Ohio,
• 24:26
  I think only gets 20,000 people only for people moving to Prariesburg.
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  Now, or it's for people that are there too, that about events and everything.
• 24:38
  That 20,000 people, when you take out the children and people that don't listen, what
• 24:43
  are you getting as your maximum audience, 500 people maybe, I was going to say maybe
• 24:50
  it seems that face value just yeah, 500 maybe, or people that are that live like if Frank
• 24:56
  and Freddie used to live there.
• 24:58
  And now Frank, you and Sal Jersey and me and Texas, they were like, oh, you know what a slice
• 25:03
  of home.
• 25:04
  So maybe there's some listenership from that from from those people.
• 25:08
  Yeah, but still they don't worry about that.
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  This is a service they're providing and it's a great service.
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  I think there's a value, there's value in that.
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  And one other thing I'm going to add, I know I'm going on is that I know because of
• 25:26
  your radio background, there's a lot of radio people that have moved in the podcasting
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  and they're in the Indie space and they bring experience, they bring talent.
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  They bring all of their audio background to it.
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  And I think they really help the indie podcasting ecosystem because of that.
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  So they're not, you know, they're not novices that don't know what they're doing.
• 25:56
  They already experienced people that do that.
• 25:59
  There's a gentleman in Toronto who was a radio DJ and when I guess the radio station
• 26:05
  went away, he went to podcasting his name, his first name is Mike.
• 26:10
  The name of his podcast is Toronto Mike.
• 26:14
  So it's M.I.K.E. apostrophe D.
• 26:17
  Oh, I love that.
• 26:18
  I'm looking it up right now.
• 26:20
  Yeah, look it up and it's so good.
• 26:23
  I did a review on it.
• 26:24
  It's so good, basically, did you fight?
• 26:27
  Did you have you found it?
• 26:28
  I got it right here.
• 26:29
  Yeah.
• 26:30
  It's so good that people use it for information about the city and he is a radio person
• 26:39
  by background too.
• 26:41
  So it's those kinds of shows that make podcasting so vibrant, so creative that cannot be duplicated
• 26:53
  by a large network that's sitting there with the next cell spreadsheet saying, we need
• 26:58
  to, you know, what's the CPM on this or how can we make money on this, you know, these
• 27:04
  aren't in the calculations of independent podcasters.
• 27:08
  There seems to be the hidden ROI.
• 27:10
  So with anybody who might want to launch a podcast as an indie host and have their podcast
• 27:17
  be an extension of their brand because they're a business owner or maybe they just started
• 27:21
  a nonprofit or maybe they're already, maybe they, maybe they're 10 years into their business
• 27:25
  journey or nonprofit journey and they want to have a podcast as podcast as an extension
• 27:31
  of their brand, the responsible thing to do and I'm a business owner, the responsible thing
• 27:36
  to do is like, okay, what's the ROI?
• 27:39
  If you shift the conversation around ROI from, well, yes, you know that you're going to
• 27:45
  incur hard costs like the mic.
• 27:48
  I'm talking to a sure mic, headphones, bringing a podcast studio, hiring a company to
• 27:54
  edit and produce their show.
• 27:56
  What have you?
• 27:57
  Those are the hard costs.
• 27:59
  Will you, will you make, will you be making Joe Rogan style money back to your point
• 28:04
  about CPMs?
• 28:06
  Most certainly not, at least if you're, you know, if you're like most independent podcasters
• 28:13
  almost certainly not and it's going to take years to even start to make, you know, start
• 28:20
  to earn some sort of an income unless you productize your show or and or rather and or you
• 28:30
  have a different conversation about the ROI and what it, what it at what, what your ROI
• 28:36
  is outside of money.
• 28:40
  So if you productize your business or service, your product and what have you, what the,
• 28:46
  what an effective call to action at the beginning, possibly the middle two and then at the end
• 28:50
  so three calls to action and then what's the ROI?
• 28:54
  So with your mic, which is the podcast that we're on now, I'm not making direct money
• 29:00
  from it.
• 29:01
  But what do I get?
• 29:02
  The ROI is that I'm talking to one of the most powerful and influential newsletter,
• 29:07
  newsletter writers in the podcast universe and I'm just having fun hanging out with
• 29:12
  them.
• 29:13
  And I don't care that I'm, it's like there's ROI and relationship building and it's just,
• 29:20
  you don't see it in a spreadsheet or you don't see it in the mail when you get it when,
• 29:26
  when you're looking for a check is my, is really my, my long wooded way of trying to make
• 29:30
  a point.
• 29:31
  And there are more ways to judge what an ROI is on an independent show.
• 29:36
  Oh, Freddie, you're absolutely right.
• 29:38
  This is a great point because there's so many companies now that are doing a few things.
• 29:45
  One is I can think of Costco is a good one.
• 29:47
  They've been doing this for a while.
• 29:48
  So they have a podcast for their employees.
• 29:51
  So now I'll ask the same question that you just asked, what's the ROI on doing a podcast
• 29:58
  for their employees?
• 29:59
  It's the same cost that you just mentioned.
• 30:03
  The answer is, are they going to get direct money back from putting out a podcast to their
• 30:07
  employees?
• 30:08
  Nope.
• 30:09
  Nope, they are not.
• 30:10
  But what will they get for it?
• 30:12
  In many ways, what they'll get for it is far greater than anything that you can either
• 30:19
  evaluate or you can measure because it's the goodwill of their employees and employees
• 30:25
  that are informed and satisfied or more productive employees.
• 30:29
  And generally that makes for a more productive and profitable business.
• 30:34
  So they're extremely smart for doing that.
• 30:37
  And there's other companies, American and quite a few other companies that now do the
• 30:41
  same thing.
• 30:42
  They understand your equation, which is we don't have to recoup money.
• 30:49
  What we have to do is we're going to get something back in currency more.
• 30:54
  That's different than money.
• 30:55
  But in many ways, much more valuable.
• 30:58
  If you've got the Costco employees, Frank and Freddie who are working on the weekends
• 31:03
  and you feature one or both of them in episodes and then they go and tell their family and
• 31:10
  friends, even though it's an internal podcast, they're like, hey, honey, guess what?
• 31:14
  I was featured on the internal podcast and it changes who they are as a person.
• 31:21
  You've made their day possibly week, possibly month.
• 31:24
  You possibly made their year.
• 31:26
  You've earned a fan.
• 31:28
  You've earned someone who is now legitimately wanting to go to work because you showed
• 31:33
  Frank and Freddie just how much you value them featuring their stories and why they love
• 31:37
  working where they work to their employees.
• 31:41
  And then the employees that hear that internal podcast then are like, wow, I had no idea
• 31:46
  that Frank did this and this before he started.
• 31:50
  I really like him now or I knew he was cool.
• 31:53
  I didn't realize he was that cool.
• 31:56
  And so the ripple effect is really, is really infinite.
• 31:59
  I've got one more point to make too because this is something our longest client is the
• 32:04
  Rose Breast Center of Excellence.
• 32:05
  They provide mammograms to the uninsured and insured women and men in Southeast Texas.
• 32:11
  And Dorothy had said Dorothy Gibbons is the host and CEO and co-founder and she had even
• 32:17
  mentioned and she said this more than once too is that if anything, you have a podcast
• 32:23
  if you're a business or nonprofit just to let your employees shine.
• 32:27
  Oh, that's fabulous.
• 32:29
  Absolutely.
• 32:30
  She's a smart business woman and a great benefit to her community for saying that.
• 32:36
  That's great.
• 32:37
  There's so much more than the mutton.
• 32:40
  I'm a business owner.
• 32:42
  I like capital.
• 32:43
  I like money in my bank account.
• 32:45
  There are also so many different ways that you can slice the pie and read the benefits
• 32:51
  of the podcast universe.
• 32:52
  But Frank, my man, it was a pleasure getting to talk with you.
• 32:59
  We've traded some LinkedIn messages and again, I've been reading your newsletter for
• 33:05
  quite some time and I'm a big fan.
• 33:07
  Please let everybody know where they can find the ear worthy newsletter and all that
• 33:11
  good stuff.
• 33:12
  Oh, well, Freddie, thank you again.
• 33:14
  This was great.
• 33:15
  Love talking to you.
• 33:17
  You are a credit to not only the industry, but to independent podcasters so we all appreciate
• 33:26
  you.
• 33:27
  Thank you very much.
• 33:28
  And you can find us.
• 33:29
  You can do a search for ear worthy.
• 33:31
  We're a medium.
• 33:32
  We're a blogger.
• 33:33
  We're on every social media site that you can think of just to search for us and you'll
• 33:38
  find us.
• 33:39
  And if you're looking for a podcast that is out of the norm that you're going to enjoy,
• 33:47
  look us up to find the podcast.
• 33:49
  And the last thing I'll say is please, please, please support independent podcasters.
• 33:55
  Love it.
• 33:56
  Appreciate you, sir.
• 33:57
  Thank you.