Latest / Psyched For Sanity / Episode 27 - The Rise of Therapy Speak

Transcript

Episode 27 - The Rise of Therapy Speak · Psyched For Sanity

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Psych for Sanity.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I am one of your hosts, Dr.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Brindle Doss.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: I specialize in forensic psychology, trauma treatment, assessment, and geriatric psychology.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Dr.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Tara McKelvey Parker.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: I am also a licensed clinical psychologist.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: You do.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you want to make some money?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I always stop.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I always want to make some money.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: I have student loan bills that need to get paid.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: You got your mind on the money a lot.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Some easy, easy cash.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Are you sure?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, no, because there's no way to win.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is just hyper this is this is not real.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: But imaginary money in your imaginary bank that's coming from my imaginary pocket.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: I will give you an imaginary$50.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you guess the amount of times that someone came into my office this week and said that so-and-so was a narcissist.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: If I get the number actually right, will you give me five dollars?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: If I get close to an actual number, will you give me five dollars of real money?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: My guess is eight.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: There is no real number.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was a setup.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was a fake fake.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Fake me out.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Fake news.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Fake story.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: No, but in all reality, people do often come into my office with kind of using terms not super accurately.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a little frustrating for me because I think it really oversimplifies human experience.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so they're often coming in using words like gaslighting or boundary or trauma or triggered.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Or triggered or narcissist, and I'm like toxic, you know, those kinds of things where I'm like, uh tell me more.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what you mean.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it, let's dig into this and and like, like, you know, kind of expound upon because I feel like that's not quite accurate or that's a little too simple.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I often like what I always say to people when I'm they're using these kind of terms, or there's a kind of a construct that is not they're not connecting with how I understand it.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: I always say, What is that when you say that, what does that look like for you, or in the relationship with so-and-so, what does that look like?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we were talking about this and we thought it could be helpful to have an episode about like this, you know, these labels, this therapy talk, so to speak, and and when therapy speak, and when it can be helpful, and when it might be tricky or harmful and hurtful, and how you can kind of go about using this language a little bit more responsibly, maybe.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Responsibly and maybe more accurately, yeah, to understand.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because the whole point I think that is critical about these tur this terminology, and a lot of terms or constructs or or things that your therapist might talk to you about, is like they're the whole guise is to gain understanding, right?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And yourself, your experience, your relationships with the world in general.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when we use these terms in a way that's less accurate or too rigid, I think, like too rigid or too simple, and in too too simple of a way, it can become tricky.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, but I think you're hitting on them the one of the more important pieces about why the labels can be helpful.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because I think that they re most people are just trying to better understand themselves when they are researching or better understand their partners or their friends or their you know, whatever family.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think labels can be really helpful because they do increase awareness and insight and help people feel less alone and like they understand themselves better.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: The labels can be super validating for some people to comfort.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if they come across one of these terms or one of these labels and they're like, oh, that really explains my experience.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is a name for it, like other people experience this.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not alone in this.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, and then I think as mental health just in general becomes a little bit more public or widely accepted, then this is great because then there's more communication and some of these labels and they can be very helpful for, you know, yeah, communicating some of this stuff with others and making it more accessible and easier to talk about.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's when that's when terms that you and your therapist talk about, that's when it goes right.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it all starts from in my mind the therapy room or from psychoeducation that you might be receiving.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um but what about when it goes wrong and how is that how has it become kind of morphed and where you're hearing narcissist narcissist multiple times in a week and you're not quite sure they understand what they're communicating?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just think like um sometimes some of the label like nar narcissists, that one bugs me a bunch.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that one like bothers me a little bit more because I feel like sometimes when people use that label in particular, it's pretty like over pathologizing of some like normal human behavior.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so like narc narcissistic exists, narcissistic existers.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's a real thing, it's a personality disorder disorder, so it's you know, sort of complex, right?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: But when it's not a cluster of symptoms, right.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like selfishness, for instance, like doesn't equal narcissistic, right?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or if someone's avoidant or dismissive or you know, kind of a jerk, you know, in some kind of form or fashion, doesn't automatically mean narcissist.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like that one gets thrown around a bunch.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like trauma, for instance, I think I think that one can be thrown out often just for experiences that are uncomfortable.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right and triggered.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Triggered.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I I hear that one a lot.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that one I kind of I think I just a little harder.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: I use it more loosely even in my vernacular.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so that one, you know, you could be triggered and have a feeling because of a situation, but triggered as it was intentionally meant to be used.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Research definition.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: The yeah, is that when someone's triggered, they are having some kind of flashback, intense emotional experience because of a traumatic event.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like yeah, you mean they've been triggered into a disassociative episode or association or emotional flashback or regular flashback, right?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: When you feel like you're back in a traumatic experience.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: So triggered like means something particular, but now it kind of gets used just when you're like upset or uncomfortable.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that you know, it just sort of to me, again, like oversimplifies experiences and and also kind of over pathologizes sometimes normal human behavior and experiences.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Or experiences.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um what else?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: How when else can it become trickier and helpful, maybe, in your opinion?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think um that triggered is one that I have heard more.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think boundaries is another one that's um I would not say is necessarily used inappropriately, but it's poorly understood.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: As it's employed.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or as it's used in relationships.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think it can be weaponized.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that one in particular.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Some of these labels, these terms can be weaponized.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people think a boundary is a way is like a way to control another person.
• 7:37
  unknown: Right.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: When a really a boundary is a way to uh create internal controls for yourself of what you will or will not do.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: It has nothing to do, functionally speaking.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot give someone else a boundary, basically.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: You can control it.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: You have no control over other people's behavior, but you can control what you do, and we've spoken about that kind of a lot on the podcast.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: But it is one of those that can be weaponized.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, another one I think sometimes gets a little weaponized is the term gaslighting.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: That is huge everywhere.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think people don't necessarily understand what that means or where like the context around it.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so they will use this term whenever they're just in like a conflict with someone, you know, maybe who they're trying to talk to is being like defensive.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or and so defensiveness or even lying is not gaslighting.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but sometimes that can be, you know, you're you're gaslighting me as and it it just again oh kind of oversimplif oversimplifies sometimes, you know, can weaponize.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then whenever we're using these terms a bunch without really understanding what they mean, um, you know, too it kind of inflate, you know, if every relationship is toxic, then what really is toxic really is toxic.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's sort of like and and those ways can be tricky or limiting or even used for to avoid certain things and just sort of oversimplify and make it challenging.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: I want to go back to gaslighting because a lot of these terms, so I I don't use in myself in session.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I rarely have found myself since we've kind of been talking about planning this episode together.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've rarely uh when I've been reflecting, I don't really use that term at all in therapy as a therapist.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make sure, since we are talking about the inaccuracy in the use, can you help folks understand like really what is gaslighting, like in a functional as I as it as it was intended?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Gas the for gaslighting is a little it's um it's intended to be used to point to a little bit more abusive or manipulative behavior.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: So gaslighting is sort of systemically manipulating you to question your reality over time.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like a single incidence, is what you're trying to say.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's more intentional.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's somebody who's really trying to get you to question your reality, not someone who's being defensive or argumentative or like not agreeing with your perspective, or maybe even like wildly doubling down on their perspective, right?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Not hearing yours.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like this sort of like actually trying to poke at your reality and make you feel confused, like you are wrong.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a little bit more that's that's abusive, like psychologically emotionally abusive.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that term was more meant for you kind of again, like not a single conversation, but like a pattern over the course of time.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's a little bit more intentional, a little bit more, I would say, like again, manipulative, not not just these other common kind of conflict points or disagreement points or defensiveness, those kinds of things, exactly.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think when we're talking about all these terms, our goal with this kind of conversation and dialogue is not to say we don't want people to feel like they're out that using necessarily things wrong.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's important.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you've been using the term gaslighting, it's okay, but I have an understanding of what that means functionally speaking.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: For what it really is for your therapist or what that looks like.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: So like be a little bit more curious than about the pattern of behavior is what I want to encourage our listeners to do.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think sometimes, right, when we're using like that person's gaslighting me, it becomes sort of a a stopgap.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's like a box.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a box to put your experience in.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: So then you're not really being curious about the pattern of behavior.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're, you know, the person you're talking about may or may not be gaslighting you.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they are sure um in a true way, but maybe they're not, and maybe there's more nuance.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so then maybe there's also like a little bit more action you need to take or responsibility you need to take, sure, and vice versa, it's a little bit more is this psychological abuse?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe, maybe not, like, but things are a little bit more nuanced.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: So in general, with these labels, we're just wanting to encourage curiosity over certainty.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's really stop and ask Am I using this term accurately?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is this term clarifying for me?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is it escalating things instead of calming things?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: These are all questions you can kind of ask to see.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think with each one of these things, you know, I think those are really great questions to kind of check in with yourself about.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I want to go back to narcissistic per like, you know, that person narcissistic.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe we can define some of that.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Defining some of that in a sense would help people, because I think you know, zooming out of just narcissistic personality disorder.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that people always understand the difference between a major depressive disorder and a personality disorder.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're widely and vastly different.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, for sure, yeah.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so you know, we define gaslighting.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: So narcissistic, I mean this yeah, this is a personality disorder.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's complex, it's a complex sort of cluster of traits, personality traits, um, that is sort of rigid and inflexible and again impairing um across settings, pervasive.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, a person who is narcissistic may have trouble with empathy or perspective taking, um, you know, or sort of be a little bit more self-focused, but that doesn't, you know, that just because someone is those things doesn't mean they're narcissistic with a personality disorder.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Personality disorders in terms of like psychology and from our training and our our understanding and that a personality disorder is something that you can help a person with in terms of treating, but it's not something that is in my clinical perspective, it's like something you can functionally fully change or put in remission in a sense.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense or do you disagree?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um Yeah, I yeah, I suppose for me, like disorder means it's to a point that is rigid and impairing functioning.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think because of the type of therapy I do that's more attachment-based or modern relational, the goal is actually to make some of those personality patterns more flexible.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there can be some change.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's fair.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think personality falls on a spectrum, and there can always be progress and change in that way.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: But is right, so I guess I think maybe I think the framework that I'm coming from is more sort of how some people view um addiction, where you might be in recovery from addiction, but that means certain folks don't add they still might identify as an as an addict, sure.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so it kind of sure, there's like different schools of thought around this kind of thing.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I think it's I think it's possible to soften some of these differences and patterns enough to potentially not be diagnosable.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, I agree with that a hundred percent.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right, even if your personality structure is still that of like maybe more narcissistic leaning, just like some of us have a more obsessive compulsive personality, and like so anyway, and we just know that I think with any disorder that you're talking about, it's always comes down to a critical point in terms of diagnosis is is it functionally impairing you?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: So again, when we're saying disorder, we're talking about impairment.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Limitation, limitation it's it's limitation, job function, life function, relationships, social impacting your mood.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, trauma, since I we both really work a lot with the trauma population, trauma is another one I think people you are using very, very, very loosely now.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Triggered, you know, that traumatized me.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: In you know, historically speaking, trauma is something that is scary, overwhelming, produces feelings of helplessness, not just discomfort, right, um, or something or upset or or upset.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: So typically speaking, that's a little bit more of an accurate definition.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we both acknowledged, I think, when we were talking about this key point in terms of the label of trauma, that it's a little more that one especially is It's pretty nuanced.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's very nuanced because I don't think I'm gonna sit here and say to anyone that they're using the word trauma and accurately for their personal experience.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's not at all what we're saying.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just like the definition as you know, is is that and so like if someone says that they've experienced trauma, that's where my brain is going.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's when the clarification becomes really important, and sort of for me, defining what exactly did you experience and what feelings did that produce.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and how does that affect you now?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and most of the time, you know, I say scary, overwhelming, helpless, but chronic stress too and chronic nervous system activation also counts because it's just this really, really challenging.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's more where you get into it, like relational trauma or things like that.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Attachment trauma, yeah, developmental trauma instead of like the capital T stuff.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, d those kinds of so those terms I think are commonly misused.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Can you think of any others?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I know we touched on boundary as one.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Boundary, yeah, boundaries is one that I think you made a really great point at is that you know, sometimes when someone says to you, uh, I'm putting a I'm putting a boundary where you can't um you're not allowed to email me this anymore.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: You're sort of pointing the arrow in the wrong direction.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Where instead it really needs to be looking at, I'm not gonna respond to those emails from you at this time.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of pointing outward, it needs to be pointed inward.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Where you we are only, I I tell this to folks every week, all week.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, who's the only person we can control?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Ourselves.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: We cannot control.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: This guy.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: This guy.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: That was a good one.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Good job for you.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Point to you.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Point to Gryffindor.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um not a Gryffindor.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, we'll get into this later.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked, we cannot divulge.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're too far in.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're not gonna talk about it.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about Harry Potter later.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was making a really important point, and she just threw me off.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's fine, it happens.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: But, anyways, boundaries are so they're so helpful.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: However, we often misunderstand where the boundary needs to lie, and it needs to lie within us and our choices.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another one I think that's sort of commonly misused, commonly misunderstood, commonly weaponized, all of these things that you know can be tricky.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think social media, we wanted to touch on social media because social media plays a kind of a big role.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: And how some of this gets oversimplified.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: I know I follow like a ton of attachment, you know, like on social media, I'm really into attachment, obviously, and parenting, and so it can be really easy to jump on the bandwagon sometimes and sort of want to build my identity as a parent around some of these labels, um, or to sort of take some of these things that I'm I'm reading and learning about to be like the be all end all for healing.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the thing about social media is like some where it's branding to an extent.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is, and so that is important to keep in mind that this is like a person's opinion about a thing, and it doesn't, you know, this label or this thing, or it's not like the be all end all necessarily can be helpful, but it could also be oversimplified, things are more complicated and nuanced.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: The algorithm rewards what certainty, um, oversimplification, like and consistency.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And consist people want yeah, like bite-sized pieces of information, sound bites, sounds labels to make sense of things.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's you know, as as humans, I think when we are we're tr we're constantly trying to make sense of things and categorization is like one of the ways that we try to do that.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like this behavior means I have this attachment style, right?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or this behavior means I have ADHD, or this behavior means this, and it's it's just a little bit more nuanced and complicated than that.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: It could you could be having trouble focusing for many reasons, you know.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: All that kind of thing.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: All executive function disorder is not all ADHD.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit more nuanced.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing wrong or bad with any of it, it's more about what is the most helpful way.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I like the word helpful.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Not I don't bad and good doesn't really help me, but helpful does, because I like to do what's helpful in my life, and I it helps my patients to do what is more helpful than hurtful.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, me too, me too.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Same disease.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: So our our kind of ontogenesis are thinking about this is really look at where can we begin to help you use more helpful language?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because it's important when describing things, and you know, like I'm all for people, I I'm an assessment clinician, so same z's.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of really like labels.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: They are they can be clarifying.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: My diagnoses can be super clarifying, they can be really validating, they can help people feel like they're not alone.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Seen and heard.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: They can start to really understand themselves deeply if they do have particular diagnosis or there's a particular thing going on.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, you know they can also connect with other folks that might have a typical experience that they do, right?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Around that piece of themselves.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: But also like you are not just that label.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's also something that I like to talk to my patients about.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, like yes, perhaps you have complex PTSD, yes, perhaps you have ADHD, and that is super helpful to understand ourselves.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: However, like you're more than than that, it's not your entire identity.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I think the labels can encourage um, you know, sometimes to rigidity, rigidity and and and sort of lack of accountability about changing actions or changing patterns or making changes.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, I have this thing, so there's no hope for me.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And there's and that's the end of the story.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no, no, that's not true.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not true.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is helpful to make sense of things and also things can change.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And also you are more than just this thing.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not so black and white, it's not so ironic because um, I'm wearing gray pants.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't I thought I wasn't wearing But you know what?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I love a metaphor.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: You do, you do.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Big metaphor girl right here.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to hear my metaphor for this?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Go for it.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm really this is my th one of my things.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: So okay, I'm it's one of your things.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's one of my things.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Hooves and trains.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Metaphors.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Man, she's always bringing out my past, guys.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: I can never live it down.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm over trains and hooves.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Sort of.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Not really.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have time for it.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: You are a diamond.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're a diamond.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: In the rubber.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have many facets.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: You have many facets or sides of you.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe um uh CPTSD or other diagnostics might be one facet.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not the whole diamond.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a part.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we just want to encourage curious T.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Ask yourself, like, am I being curious about this term, this label, this diagnosis?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Am I using it in a way that is helpful?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is this clarifying from me or escalating?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, just like just keep it in mind as you're using this these these terms and labels because it is so great that there is more mental health a little bit.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, it's so wonderful.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's great that we're able to sit here and talk to you about this stuff.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to just on social media.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: On social media, yeah, we do get the irony.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Irony is hurt.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: We do understand it.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um however, and it gets tricky, and we want to be responsible with these terms and labels as we start uh discussing them as a community.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: As a community, I also think it's so understandable for me and the world that we live in today, which has changed so rapidly.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think I'm also a 40, 40-year-old person-ish.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: And our lifetime is changing.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm only 40-ish, I meant.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a I'm not ish a person, man.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Geez, guys.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're only a little bit of a person.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: As a person adjacent.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Someone, someone stop her.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: What I was trying to say is I think it's really understandable that we want everything to be a five to ten second sound bite.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's so understandable.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I am as a person adjacent.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, as a real whole person.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: As a real whole person that has facets, because I'm also a diamond.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're all diamonds, but you may only be partial diamond if you're only a partial diamond.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: I am a full diamond, woman.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a full diamond, and you will I will be heard.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay to have the urge to like boil things down, but it's so critical to have the understanding of the complexity.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just with everything, probably in life, whatever you're seeing on social media.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: So specifically for this episode with Therapy Speak.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there you go.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we'd be interested for you to drop a comment, let us know what you think.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love to hear that and read it.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let us know.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental health treatment.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can relate to our quest and how we're psyched for sanity.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: The content we share is our personal opinions and insights.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we work in or have worked for in the past.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: But if listening to this podcast has made you think, we really encourage you to seek out a mental health professional in your area.