Latest / A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast / The Intersection of Music and Justice w/ Jay Julio

Transcript

The Intersection of Music and Justice w/ Jay Julio · A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome again to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and send us your question. And why should someone do that, Lee ?
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Well, Simon, because if it matters to you, it surely matters to us, and it probably will be a matter of faith at some point in our conversation. So
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Yep , it would . That's sure. Yep . It sure is a matter of faith. And if you are someone who, for the moment is maybe having a matter of a lack of patience and you don't wanna listen to our introductory segment about the news and an opening question, you can skip to the timestamp, which is in the show description and show notes below. And that will take you to our conversation with Jay Julio about music and using music to , uh, promote and support justice causes in our communities. But we hope you wanna stick around for this introductory conversation, because Lee and I are here and we're a good time.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: We are a good time, though. Some may say different, but we are , we are a good time, I think, and we often have, I mean, just coming from me, but I think we have a lot of profound things to say in our conversations, but Yeah . But yeah. But a lot of things are happening these days. We will mention Trump is being indicted on federal charges, which
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: 37?
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: I think it's the first time a president has been correct.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: No,
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: I think I saw that somewhere. Well,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Does that include
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Water ? Like actually charged?
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, like before? Like, didn't just resign before charges came through, or impeachment came through.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure. Yeah . Like he's actually charged.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know. It could
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Be so , but yeah. But a lot of things are happening and in the religious world, the Southern Baptist are having their large gathering this week, and the Southern Baptists have rejected Rick Warren's appeal to reinstate his church, Saddleback, which is a huge church. But the Southern Baptists are the largest, the nation's largest Protestant denomination. And Saddleback Church actually ordained women and then were kicked out of the Southern Baptist Convention , uh, in a vote that they did at the last gathering. And now they're trying to get, this church is trying to get back into the convention and they were denied. And I wanted to bring this up because this is, again, this is the nation's largest Protestant denomination, and being a denomination that is a lot smaller, I think Presbyterians are around 1.3 million people within this nation. Uh, the Southern Baptist Convention is like 13.7 million. And so it's a lot larger and a lot more churches. And so they have this ideology that women should not be ordained. And I think oftentimes this is an important reminder, specifically in denominations like ours. And we're gonna talk a little bit about this in our question, but that might be more progressive when it comes to the ordination of women, when it comes to conversations around racism and white supremacy and ordination and marriage and all those things that the Presbyterian church u s a is all about is often a good reminder to say that a lot of people do not hold to that. And sometimes we posture ourselves like everybody may , and that we have this kind of , uh, sometimes moral high ground in it. And it's also a conversation that like, we've been ordaining women since the fifties and we're still having this conversation now. I think it's the fifties. Yes . We'll look it up. I'll look it up. But it's been a long time. And just to think that we're still having these conversations about how scripture is being interpreted when it comes to our siblings who identify as women. This is something we still need to continue to talk about. It still happens in progressive circles. It happens around the world where women are not acknowledged for their ordinations. They are not at the tables when discussions are happening. So this is just a constant reminder that we still have a lot, a lot, a lot of work to do, even though some denominations have policy that are very inclusive of women, we still have to tell people and we still have to do the work behind it, which is always the case. Right, Simon? Yeah . We have policies and they need to be followed by action.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Yep . No, that's true. And for folks that are interested, we did have a conversation on the podcast with the first , uh, woman who was ordained as a minister in the P u s a Reverend Margaret Towner. She was ordained in 1956. Yes. So folks can check out our previous
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Wonderful conversation
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. For, for that conversation. Yeah . Yeah . Um , and in some other news, this is very specific, so forgive me folks, , but I think this is important. It is . Some of you may remember , uh, the conversation that Lee and I had last week about the Little Mermaid and the, you know, sort of backlash that some folks are having , have had against casting Ariel as a black woman. Well, it's kind of interesting cuz in another, in another circle, and this is pertaining to my own life, but in another, in another circle, another hobby that I, that I enjoy is Magic The Gathering, which is a trading card game. And coming up in the next week or so, the newest , uh, set of cards will be coming out for Magic. And that set is entirely based on the Lord of the Rings. It's called, I Believe, tales from Middle Earth and Every Okay . And people are, people are really excited. I've seen spoilers for some cards. The art is amazing. It's gonna be a good time. But interestingly , uh, the artistic depictions of Aragorn , who obviously goes on to become the king , uh, is that he's a black man, which I love personally. I think he looks awesome. I think he looks amazing in the , um, uh, he looks great. But there's been some pushback about, oh, you're just tr about the creators of magic, the gathering wizards of the coast, that, oh, they're just trying to, you know , be this woke, you know, be woke and , uh, cater to diversity and things like that. To which I would just like to raise that up to folks that, again, this is a , a character from fantasy and that it's different for different people. It doesn't have to be your fantasy that is always reflected in what you see. And I was listening to a podcast , um, for Magic, the Gathering in which one content creator , um, a black, a black man himself said, if we were going strictly by the rules of the world that JR r r Tolkien created, then the aor you saw in the movies for the Lord of the Rings is also inaccurate because he's not supposed to have facial hair because he's, he has, yeah. Cuz I believe he has some and blood in him. Yeah. So he can't grow facial hair, so that is inaccurate already. But people didn't make a big fuss about that. So it's like, if you wanna be purist about things, we can get into that. But at the end of the day, let's not be ridiculous. Yeah. And he also raised another interesting point, which I think that I , and I raised this because I think this is a , a good example of trying to deflate, for lack of a better word, may be stupid arguments that people raise. Someone came to him and said on Twitter of course, and said, well, what if we made that this character from Magic who's named to Fairy What and is a black man? Well, what if they made to Fairy White? And his response was, well, you see, if we're gonna play the game of race swapping characters and Teferi is white, that means that about 95% of all other magic of the Gathering characters are about to become black. So if Teferi has to go to take one for the team, I'm okay with that . Yeah. But again, just like we can get it so heated into these conversations about things that frankly don't matter, let people depict fantasy the way they wanted depict fantasy. It's okay if you, maybe you don't agree with a choice, but it wasn't your choice to make that. So you can have your feelings, but don't be mean about it.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah . Yeah. And, and then this was the same conversation people were having when the Lord of the Rings TV series came out on Amazon. Yes. Where originally within the original movies, which I loved, I'm not gonna sit here and lie about it, but they are not diverse whatsoever at all. And to see these characters represented in a multitude of different identities, some even gender switching and things like that, it is, it brings to it , it brings it more to life in a way that people can see themselves in characters that they have admired for so long. So I think when we begin to have these conversations, it's, it's just the rearing of heads of like, racism and white supremacy in a space that is supposed to be playful in a space of fantasy where, where it is , um, the imagining of a world that we want to be, or a world that we want to see ourselves reflected in. That's when people ask me how are, what are ways in which we can do anti-racism work or when we can , uh, educate ourselves? And I was like, it's not just the books that are talking specifically about anti-racism. I said, you everyone needs to read fantasy and novels written by people, written by people of color that is in which you, you really begin to, to see the worlds in which people want to be in and the worlds that people want to create within our reality. So it's an important conversation to have, I think, because when we start, when we start questioning the imaginations and the creativity of people in a way that is meant to bring inclusivity into this world, that's when, that's when a lot of fear comes in, I think. Cuz it's like you're messing with something that I hold sacred in some ways. And that is the thing. It's just like when you mess with Jesus, it Yeah . It, it's a big trigger point, like we said on with the Little Mermaid. So
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And speaking of things that people hold very close to their, you know, just very close, that includes people's views about faith and religion. And speaking of faith and religion, we have a question about just that. So we were asked , uh, this question which reads, how do you have a conversation about faith and rel and religion with people who have fundamentalist Christian views? Lee, maybe we should start by defining for folks what we mean by fundamentalist views.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: I think that can vary Yeah. Depending on who you ask, but fundamentalism is al is is taking for, for one, it's taking the stance that, and in many ways should be read at face value as well as early Christian doctrines that, that also take scripture at face value without cont context, without a lot of other things. Uh , kind of a literal way of going about biblical interpretations and theologies. And I was asked a similar question as this. So in DC we just, we just finished, well, we're still celebrating pride in DC and we have a festival and I'm a part of a group here called Queerly Gathered, which is a group of leaders in fate that are gathering for community and worship. And it's a new thing that , uh, presbyt , uh, the presbytery here is doing. And we had a booth at the Pride Festival and a guy came up and was just like, how do you have a conversation with conversation with people who are very fundamentalists and may denounce the way in which you are expressing how God created you to be? And the first thing I said was, it's often not safe for a lot of people to have that conversation. Specifically if you are a person, if you are a person of color, if you are anything that goes against somebody's view of a kind of a heteronormative world, it's often unsafe. And I told him , I was like, this is, this is why we have allies. This is why there's, there's always room for people to walk alongside those who are marginalized, who may or may not have the energy to do this and may not feel safe doing this. But it's the job of, of allies to also facilitate these conversations. But it's also a conversation in my opinion, is not gonna change somebody's mind. Mo most of the time a conversation is usually set up to create a lot of tension is usually set up to create emotion is usually set up to create a lot of chaos within a discussion that will probably get you nowhere other than to re-traumatize you. And the only way for that, for me, I, I necessarily will not enter into one of these conversations because the only way these things change, if relationships are built and the ideas are changed in that way, the fundamentalist Christian view is very fragile. And if one peg is removed from a very fragile view of faith, things begin to fall into place for people sometimes. But I think it's also asking our question of oneself, do I have the energy for this? Where do I stand in all of this? Am I , do I consider myself an ally? How do I do this with intentionality and not emotion? Because I think sometimes people can, can have these types of conversations and do it from a very selfish, ego-driven space to kind of prove that they're right on all sides. And for me, it's just asking those questions. If you have time, if you don't have energy, if it's unsafe, if you're gonna be re-traumatized, it is where a lot of our allies come into place. But I am not a believer that a conversation is gonna change anybody's view of, of how I am as, as I express my humanity. Because defending your humanity is, is in and of itself the bottom line of I shouldn't have to be doing this. So that's, that's what I would say
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: . Yeah, I think that, I think conversations can be helpful, but like you said, there has to be a certain amount of respect by all, and integrity and intentionality by all in the conversation. And it's very easy for our conversation to go the route of, well, I'm right, you are wrong. And especially when someone's view , um, causes, you know, leads them to make , uh, you know, for lack of a better word, condemning mm-hmm . and judgmental , um, statements or actions towards other people, then definitely then that's, that's hard. And you need to take care of yourself in that, in that situation. I do think that also I wanna tread lightly that there is a difference between fundamentalism and the evangelical community, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm . Um, though there are certain things that are, are sort of shared and , uh, related between the two. It's interesting, interesting. I was having a conversation with someone who, about the, this idea of universalism. Right ? If you know what I that is, and it , for folks that don't know , it's the idea that, oh, okay, well Jesus died so that all would be forgiven. So in that situation, what about the person who never comes to know Christianity, that child or that person? Is that person saved on a and on the flip side, what about someone like Adolf Hitler who proclaimed to know Jesus , you know , uh, and did a lot of terrible things. How does that, how does that work? And my response to that person was, well, from the tr I hear your question, and I think it's good to ask these kinds of questions, but the thing is that you have reduced the conversation to black and white very quickly. And I'm not convinced it's quite that simple in the reform tradition that I come from in the Presbyterian tradition, I believe in a God that has understanding and knowledge beyond my comprehension. And that's why God is the one making choices. And I'm not, that is why God's understanding is so deep that we're talking about across time and space and ma and beyond. Right. Similarly, I also believe that I believe in a God of love. God knows what that love is, and God knows what that love looks like between people. And if people are sharing in the love that God gave them, I should be supporting that because that's the God that I worship. Um, and that's my response to some, that's not necessarily to a fundamental, a fundamentalist critique of Christianity or lens, but you can see how that is a way to respond to something that tries to boil some things down to, like you said, face value, very sort of simple or black and white. Um, and that doesn't mean that that answer is good for everyone that's necessarily gonna satisfy anybody because all I've done is I've muddied the waters. I've made it more nuanced. Yeah. But in pointing out that there's a way of thinking that is more nuanced, even if that's challenging, I think that's good. Again, as long as it can be done within , within the confines of a safe conversation. Yeah. And similarly, I think that for folks that maybe would not prescribe to the fundamentals point of view, maybe to more progressive, I would say to for ourselves, we also need to be careful that we are not judgmental towards others as well. That that is also not helping. You do need to prote protect yourself and take care of yourself and be an ally for sure. But that also doesn't mean you come at someone who shares a very different opinion that is not, maybe not only shaped by their church, but like their whole life experience. And whenever anyone comes to try to shake the grounds of what someone may have been brought up to believe, that's hard in general. So just to make sure that we do that with an error of, of delicacy as well, that doesn't mean that we can't be firm. That doesn't mean we can't be pastoral, but it, it does mean that we have to be careful. Yeah . If that makes sense. So it's like any conversation that is difficult, especially when it comes to challenging topics, particularly regarding people's lives and people's love and other types of topics. I mean, we see how this can, you know, things get spun to include more political topics like guns
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. .
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: So it's not easy folks, and we pray for anyone having these conversations and in these spaces, because you do have to be brave whether regardless of which side of the conversation you're on, to be in that space does require a certain amount of, of bravery.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I do think now, I mean, considering how we are as a , like a nation now, where things are very polarizing and it's hard to find the, the nuance in conversations. But yeah, I think the main thing is be safe. Always be who you are, because I think that is also hard work to do within our own selves when we bring ourselves to conversations or when we bring ourselves to situations that we may find ourselves in. And I have had this happen when I lived in Tennessee and as a pastor going into small rural churches in Tennessee, though those are very diverse. Me being who I am and not necessarily for my own safety, proclaiming that I am a person, but never kind of holding back in how I act or what I say, actually made a lot of difference that I didn't realize it did. It opened a lot of people's minds and hearts to a person being in a space with them. And I don't know if I would necessarily recommend doing that. I felt that I wasn't going , I felt safe enough to do that, but not so safe to kind of be so , uh, explicit about it. But I do think people change in seeing someone, or even they feel threatened in seeing someone being who they are. And that is also a lot of the reasons why I'm always saying people need to be working on their own authenticity, their own ways of finding out who they really are, even in the midst of these conversations. And I think it helps tremendously. So yeah . Do the work for yourself and try to be safe, right ?
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And again, even within Progressive, I think more progressive Christian and faith community circles, we need to be careful that we don't always assume that we are right. Because even within the progressive Christian community, we have a lot of infighting
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: About Oh, definitely about
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Things. And it's, I've, I've seen it weaponized where it's like, oh, if you're not progressive enough, you might, you're as bad as you're as bad as someone who, for lack of a better word, is on the other side. And that is not helpful for anyone. Right . So we just a , a reminder for all of us to check ourselves as well and maintain an air of humility. But we're really grateful that , uh, for, for this conversation and for the person who sent it in. And we hope that you will enjoy our guest segment as we welcome Jay Julio, who is the head of Sound off music for BA and assistant principal violist of the Opera Philadelphia Orchestra. So please enjoy our conversation with Jay . Well, we are so excited to be joined on this episode of a Matter of Faith at Presti podcast by a very special guest, someone with whom I have had the, the honor and privilege to do quite a few , uh, musical engagements with, and you can call them that. Joining us today is Jay Julio, the head of Sound Off music for BA and the assistant Principal Violas of the Opera Philadelphia Orchestra. Jay, thanks so much for being with us on the podcast.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me. This is gonna be a ton of fun. Um, and it's so great to see you over zoom after , uh, not having seen you for quite some time in person.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: It's really great to see you and I'm really grateful that you're with us because we have a question written in that I think you can help us think through. The question reads, what are creative ways to push for justice in our communities? Things like art and music come to mind. What could these efforts look like? What advice do you have for us or any ideas? I know that you're involved with quite a few projects and, and efforts. Uh, let us know what you think.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: Well, this obviously is, is a big question and , uh, something that I've been tussling with a lot. Um, as you might have heard earlier, I had , uh, the organization, musical abolitionist collective , um, and group of friends and, and warriors , uh, sound off music for bail . Uh , we were founded in 2020 to address issues of injustice. We saw in our communities issues of racism, of , uh, classism, of inequity of , uh, violence against marginalized people. And the , uh, very question of , uh, imprisonment are US prison industrial complex, while in the midst of the 2020 , uh, uprisings around George Floyd, Breonna Taylor , um, and so many others, we have found , um, that as artists, as a collective of artists, we have a specific very special power , um, specifically in classical music where we play largely the work of wealthy dead white men composers. And we service audiences of primarily upper class , um, white and East Asian , uh, listeners, minority musicians , uh, musicians of the global min , uh, majority I should say are, you know, we're sort of like , uh, the, the guy who , um, who uh , drives the boat on the river sticks . We are , um, taking people basically into a different realm. And we are in a liminal space as well. We are , we're presenting this old, old, old music , um, while ourselves being in , uh, positions and spaces where we might , uh, not always be welcomed if we weren't practicing that kind of music and art for us is, is transformative. Um, it's transformed our own lives. Um, it's benefited us. Um , many of us come from , uh, low income backgrounds , um, backgrounds where we were looking for ways out. And the arts can be a way out for us personally as a , as a pipeline away from many of the forces. We are , we are trying to ourselves combat forces of violence, forces of , um, imprisonment. But it also serves as a way for us to communicate those struggles to people who are in, in positions where they don't have to see that positions of privilege. Um, where they maybe don't think about the possibility of being slain by police on a bad day or being taken away , uh, to prison for if causes we deem just, or just for no reason. People who have never thought about needing to steal, needing to , uh, do the things that we vilify in order to themselves live . And our work as artists is transformational. You know, it allows us to pierce the veil. Many , many of the, the lies and fabrications that we put on about society , um, allows us to, to comment, to put two things together, , um, that might not at first seem like they have anything in common. So for us that's , uh, classical music and the issue of the US prison industrial complex,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: That's really, really powerful and something that I think people may not always think about. At least I'll, I'll say for myself, at one point I considered music as a career as I think a lot of back in high when you're back in high school and you really like music and it's your favorite class cuz the rest of school kind of is not fun, . Um, and you think about being a, being a musician, and I think that it's easy to think either I have to ascend to a specific level of musician craftsmanship, and then I'll, I'll hopefully make it, you know, make it big, playing with some kind of group, or I'll be a starving artist. And that's about like the options available to me. But what you're hinting at is one that the artist has so much power, has so much agency, and that you can do that even in the context of classical music and sort of flip that paradigm, like you said, not just playing music written by white men for mostly white audiences, but using it as a tool of education and also to promote and support causes for justice and calling attention to injustice in our communities. I just think that's really, really great. And I was looking on the, the sound off Music for Bail website. I didn't realize how much of the, the efforts and intentionality behind sound off is rooted really in sort of a , the abolitionist lens. And I was wondering if you could talk about that a little bit more.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: Uh, this, this is a very personal thing for me. Um, I am a practicing Christian , um, Presbyterian. We met in church at a , at Broadway Presbyterian here in New York, which I think is a incredible vision of, of what the, the church can do. I'll rewind a little bit. I wanna talk about the word abolition. Um, when we think of the word abolition, most of us who have been educated in the US public school system think of the end of slavery , uh, stopping of taking people from their homes in Africa. Um, in this , uh, place we call North America , um, enslaved Indian , um, native American people, Indian , uh, American Indians, and also , uh, Asia, where the Trans-Pacific slave trade was also practiced , uh, by many European countries. That work is not over. We have seen that in , uh, 2020. We've seen that in this year. We have seen that in every year since the foundation of this country. And of course, through , uh, centuries before that, how forced labor and the taking of people from their homes idea of a homeland has, has been practiced, continues to be practiced in our ways of policing and in our ways of imprisoning people probably no , or, or maybe not, we don't know about the , uh, hand sanitizer that was so desperately , uh, needed in 2020. Uh, there's, there's a big , uh, reveal in , uh, in local newspapers about how much of , uh, new York's hand sanitizer supply was coming from , uh, prison labor in , uh, New York prisons. And people were getting paid cents every hour, you know, maybe 6 cents an hour for this labor, which, which of course saved so many lives. This vision of, of an overarching abolition, the , the complete end , uh, to the cycle of forced labor of taking people from their homes is what , uh, modern day abolitionists talk about. Um, and I am an abolitionist. I believe that the, the very idea of the prison is an outdated system. We as abolitionists of course, identify that crime and harm exist , um, but we see that the answers to harm and crime are rooted in, in generosity, in lifting up the poor, the marginalized , uh, those who have at the moment no place or a a low place in society. And this, of course, is, is informed by my personal understanding of what is taught in in the Bible.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: In your work with say, sound off and other abolitionists as well as musicians, what would you say is some of the, the challenges as well as the really exciting, like, exciting aspects of your work that you've encountered?
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think , uh, talking from , uh, perspective of, of , uh, convincing people , which is it , you know, it's our , it's our main goal. We don't want to enact change without a democratic , uh, approach. Um, we want people to understand, of course, what what they're buying into. You know, when we perform a concert, we hope that we're not just talking to , uh, people who already are sort of on the path of abolition. You wanna be making sure that we're , uh, talking to people who have maybe not heard about the issues framed in this way. Uh , a big challenge is of course, facing the initial reaction of , you know, what would you do to somebody who performs a crime, if not put them in jail or if not kill them. My initial thought is what do we do? Uh, when we see white collar crime, what do we do when we see wage theft happen? Our response to that is to make things right. By paying workers what they're owed. Companies cannot go to jail. We also see that CEOs do not generally go to jail , but by paying back what is owed, the, the issue is, is complete. Of course, that's, that's personally my opinion. But more than that, in talking to people who have been victims of crime , um, and I also have been a victim of crime, of harm, what we wanna see more than anything is that this never happens again to other people. Crime prevention is the solution to crime. And by framing our work in that context, in letting people know that our money , um, which is, you know, our, our budget is a statement of values. We always say , um, when our governments and our organizations put money into things that prevent crime, rather than react to crime after it has already happened, we are doing , um, work that, that honors victims, that honors the poor, the dispossessed, and we're honoring people who otherwise would be in prisons. I come from a community where there have been diversion programs put into place, whether people even know it or not, they're acting in, in ways that direct people to better lives when they are teachers, when they are nurses, when they provide joy for people, when they entertain from a, from a viewpoint of , um, of , of being an artist. I'm not unfamiliar, of course, with, with not having resources. , I think most artists will generally say we, we don't have enough investment in the arts. I think our greatest challenge beyond just talking to people is not having the access that the, the systems , uh, that we're fighting against have in nearly every city. The most well-funded department services, the public is the police and the prisons. Our budgets in major American cities and also in your small American towns and villages are radical. They are, I think we should just say that they are radical and they are radically directed towards funding, policing reactive solutions rather than proactive solutions. And for me, of course, that , you know , the reeks of inequity,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: When you talk about the prisons and, and police force, when you are out performing music to raise money, to call one, raise money to, I'm , I'm assuming it's to, and we can get more into details about sound off now for a moment. It , the, the funds that are used from performances are used to bail people out of jail. Is that correct or does it depend on the particular sort of cause that's , um, that you're sort of supporting at that time?
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. So , uh, our initial formation , um, was centered around funding the bail project and it's expanded a lot. So the bail project no longer , uh, services New York precisely because of the work that community organizations , um, that we also support, like the Justice Committee of Vocal New York have done to remove money , uh, from the, the process almost entirely. For those who don't know , uh, new York's bail reform laws that are currently in the process of of being gutted by our current administration are supposed to remove money from , uh, deciding whether or not a person should be held or should , uh, be able to live their lives after they've been arrested. When you're arrested, there are basically three ways you can go. Um, you can be deemed such a danger to society that you have to be held. Uh, so bail will not help you in, in that case you just, you have to be in , uh, pretrial detention until your actual trial. Um, you could also be let go. Um, and, you know, if they deem that you , um, will come back to trial , um, your own recognizance. Um, and so that is also a possibility for money to not be involved in the equation. They, they just think that you will come back because of course, if you don't come back to court, they'll make you come back. But we have this third option , uh, in America where if you have a certain amount of money you can put down you or your family can put down, you will be able to leave and go about your life, take care of your kids, go to work so that you can pay for things. Um, and if you can't pay that amount, which can go from 500 to a million, you can't leave. And you were just stuck in pretrial detention legally innocent and deemed not that much of a danger to society that you shouldn't be let out. Um, this third option is routinely used , um, on, of course, protestors, on , uh, people accused of petty crimes and also people accused of very serious crimes. We find, of course, in this society that many people are , uh, they , they have either the case is dismissed or they end up having to plead guilty out to lesser charges. Much of that is controlled by money. The statistics are very clear. People who cannot afford bail, who are innocent, have to plead out guilty because they need to return to work to care for their kids. And they would rather take a reduced jail sentence or ha pay just, just a fine. Even though oftentimes they have not actually committed a crime , they've been falsely accused. And this is is something that I find very detestable. And our work, though originally formed around supporting the bail project, which helps to pay people's , uh, bail and also supports them through the process. We found that it was, it was sort of incomplete rather than feeding into a system left unchecked will , you know, continued to, to wreak havoc on disproportionately poor people, disproportionately black and brown people. We decided partway through that it was, you know, it was great to support bail funds. It's an immediate need. We also should direct money towards supporting community organizations that educate people about this issue , um, this strange third option and work , um, also to eventually end it
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: Also our money, oh, sorry, yes, . I also wanna talk a little bit about our, our , um, musician pace since of course, we are a collective of musicians. Um, our admin team, which includes me, doesn't take money for this , um, at all. And we are in the process of, of working out equitable pay for other administrative , uh, administrative members , um, as it we're an all , uh, POC team. And people deserve to be paid for their labor. At the moment, we don't take money, but our musicians do. Our musicians are majority people of color, many of whom come from , uh, crime impacted or prison impacted families themselves. For us, it it was very , uh, important that this being not a white led group, that people who benefit from concerts from, you know, I , I hate to say the word exposure, but um, from exposure through these concerts and who get paid for their performances, are people who also feel the impacts of the prison industrial complex. Most disproportionately.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: I think it's pretty amazing that Sound Off is a person of color led organization to raise funds and awareness around these really important justice issues. Because if that's, I think that's a question that we always end up coming back to, especially on this podcast when we talk about justice, is what is the role of what is each of us the role that each of us has in trying to push for that, for that justice, for that cause. And I think it's amazing that you as well as all of your, your colleagues at Sound Off have created this, this coalition, this group, so that pe who also often don't get opportunities, have that opportunity and can they can do that work and feel and be empowered themselves , uh, because otherwise, you know, if , as some people have said, if we don't make this space, the space isn't just gonna be given to us. I'm curious, yes . As you've , uh, done this work, has there been a lot of pushback from folks or is it mostly people come attend a concert and they're sort of already, for lack of a better word with it, they already have an understanding? Or have you seen people, some people come in and then maybe walk away with a new understanding or ta and maybe talk with you all afterwards after your , or during your performance to learn more about the , uh, whether it's the abolitionist movement, the prison industrial complex bail . What's been your experience in that regard?
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: Um, there's been some pushback online for sure. Um, your , your typical trolls. I think any, any time you put anything of yourself out there, there will be people who , uh, either try to diminish it or just don't agree. Um, and that's fine. If the work wasn't hard, , uh, then we wouldn't be doing it, if that makes sense. First of all, I became an artist because I , I wanted to, to create art. It, it was never my intention and I think it was never a lot of people's intentions to run into issues. The issues of course, present themselves, you know, we , we take it as it comes. With that being said, there are a lot of people who are interested in our work, sort of in a way that comes , um, from a recent awakening of, of race in class. A lot of people, of course , um, had their first confrontations with it in 2020, black Lives Matter. Uh , the group, the logo has been thrown around for almost the decade now. There are still people , uh, who don't know what Charlottesville Char Charlottesville was. Um, and so we oftentimes bridge the gap between , um, a , a moderate or a liberal , um, so to speak, understanding of the issues towards inactively aware, you know, I don't wanna use the word woke, but we work hard to, to keep deepening people's understandings. Um, and even with ourselves , uh, doing this work can be challenging. It's challenging, of course, on a personal level. We, as a organization, we also run into conflict at times. And so practicing , uh, forms of conflict resolution that aren't just, well, you have to leave now or, you know, we will , we'll badmouth you in some way, ways that are carceral that, that repeat the models that have been shown to us by other organizations or by the world. Um, this is something that we also have to develop. And more than anything, I think work a lot with community organizations that oftentimes don't have , um, spaces like these to, to speak. Um, we have speakers at every concert, and oftentimes this is the first time that they speak in a concert hall as opposed to on the street with a microphone. And so we always keep in mind that while we're introducing an audience that is diverse, but often , uh, we have a lot of like white people, a lot of affluent people, we are also welcoming in organizations and speakers that may feel uncomfortable with the concert space. I don't know that this space is for them because other concert spaces have not traditionally been for them. So, so that's been a point of, of great thought for us. I know that's not exactly the question that you asked , uh, that , you know, something that we also think about.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's really important as you're thinking about the ways that you also engage with people who have varieties of experiences and maybe come in, as you said, with a relatively more recent , um, awakening to, to justice issues and particularly racial justice, and also folks who maybe simply are not, are not used to that space and now think , realize, oh, this is a space for that as well. I think that and the way that you're thinking about engaging them, whether it's the language you use and the conflict resolution skills, as you mentioned, that's really important too. It's like, throughout the process, how are you trying to model that change that you wanna see? And that's so important. You mentioned a little bit earlier about your own, you know, your own faith and how this work , uh, ties to that. And you mentioned Broadway, Presbyterian Church. I'm curious if other , um, whether it be, what , what's , lemme back up well if there's been , um, a additional support in terms of the faith community in general, whether it be Christian or more broadly , um, have other, say example other churches or other faith communities sort of , um, also been there for partnerships and support, or has it kind of been, has that not been the case? Has it been mostly sort of more secular nonprofits or other groups that are, that you've been partnering with?
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: I will say , uh, we have not actively been searching out, you know , religious partners in this, but so many of the people that we work with , um, whether it be speakers or performers, find that faith directs them to us and broadly to the movement. Um, there's a , there's a phrase out there , uh, liberation theology , um, which I'm sure you've talked about before. And this of course is , um, is framed in , in reaction to, to kind of subjugation theology. That's a phrase I made up . But is , uh, oftentimes how our faith is used, how other faiths also have been used to oppress where laws, I mean to , to put it really simply, where laws in a, a document, in this case the Bible are used to limit, to imprison, you know, cherry picked parts. Um, which of course we , we can draw parallels toward our current laws, , which I also find archaic. And instead of using these laws to, to oppress , um, broadly speaking, liberation theology focuses on the ideas that are clearly present of uplifting the poor, of questioning , um, what is in front of us and envisioning a brighter future, you know, and not somewhere like thousands of years from now, but noting that we're physically here in the process of creating heavenly vision every day . Um, and all of our work is crucial in that. I also want a call to attention the , the greater work that faith leaders do , um, in the movement. Uh, many of the writers that I read , uh, Derek Purnell for example , um, are, are very much informed by their faith. The leader of the Stop Cop City , uh, faith Coalition, Keana Jones. I just watched her give an incredible speech at , uh, at the Atlanta City Council , uh, yesterday , um, calling in actually the, the mayor's Pastor for , uh, leading him wrongly towards a place of injustice, of environmental injustice, of , uh, further carceral of betraying, you know, the, the people as a whole. And I find that so incredible. Also, there's, I I will say , uh, there is a church I know of in Brooklyn that is all basically comprised of, of returning citizens, people who are returning from prison and their families. I can't remember the name of it right now. You know, the , the church in the past and even now can be a , a place where oppression is upheld. But I personally believe, my belief says that, you know, God is on the side of the oppressed, never the oppressor.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: Amen to that. That'll preach
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: .
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: Well, Jay, this has been an amazing conversation. I'm so grateful that we've been able to have you on the podcast. We will be sure to have a link to sound off music for bail in the show notes so that folks can check it out. And , uh, to all of our listeners, if you're interested in good music, you can catch Jay or any of his colleagues , um, on , you know, find out about their work at the Sound Off Music for Bail website or Catch J with the , uh, opera Philadelphia Orchestra, which is also pretty exciting. Are there any , um, other collaborators or other movements, projects or , uh, networks you'd like to shout out for folks?
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: A hundred percent. So , uh, right at this very moment, I believe earlier today, Atlanta City Council against the Will of people voted to fund , uh, the Top City project by , uh, tens of millions of dollars. Um, and people in Atlanta and across the nation, across the world are immobilizing to stop this, this deeply unpopular project. Um, if you wanna get involved in that, just Google Stop Cop City , um, you can , uh, service the movement in many ways, whether monetarily or , uh, getting on the ground, letting people know , um, you know, your your time is very powerful. Uh, we also here at Sound Off have two shows coming up , uh, July 8th and July 9th. Uh , so July 8th is in New York. Um , we haven't confirmed our community partner yet, so I won't say , uh, for either show , uh, but it's going to be a really awesome program of , uh, new music and old music, some Florence Price, five folk songs. Um, and most recently we released a recording side by side with the Talent Unlimited High School Orchestra. Uh, Thomas Wiggins was a person born into slavery, a blind , uh, man who scholars have Deduced was likely autistic , um, a savant , um, and wrote a piece called Water in the Moonlight. It's been arranged for string orchestra and we were so excited to make the world premier recording of it with them earlier in April. Um, it's on all streaming platforms and if you wanna hear a quartet of us and a bunch of wonderful students from Talent Unlimited , uh, go stream it. Awesome.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much . I'll put some notes, some links in the show notes to those as well. But again, Jay, thank you so much for being on the podcast and again, if folks are interested in supporting and learning more about Sound Off Music for Bail , you can check out the link in the show notes and description. And once again, Jay, thanks so much for being with us.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Thanks to all the listeners. Uh, thank you Simon. We'll see you later.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Well, thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Faith, the Presby podcast. And thanks to Jay and Simon for that amazing conversation. We hope you all got a lot from it. We hope you subscribe wherever you give your podcast, and we hope you leave us a review. Just write us a few words and we hope you give us five stars. And if you have any questions, send the Fate podcast@peaceusa.org. Check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com. You can also submit questions there and you can find our Spanish and Korean podcasts as well as our listening guides and advocacy watch episodes. So check those out at our website and again, we will talk to you next week.