Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 930: The History and Threatened Future of Our Nation's Last Roadless Areas with Chris Wood

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Ep. 930: The History and Threatened Future of Our Nation's Last Roadless Areas with Chris Wood · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: the white tail Woods, presented by first Light, creating proven
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Wired to Hunt Podcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: Today we are going to be discussing how we came
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: to have fifty eight point five million acres of protected
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: roadless areas here in the United States of America, and
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: how those same roadless areas, those best places to hunt
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: and fish and get away from the crowds, might very
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: well be threatened in a new and profound way. And
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: joining us for this discussion is Chris Wood, a hunter,
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: an angler, and the president and CEO of Trout Unlimited.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast,
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: brought to you First Light and their Camo for Conservation Initiative.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: And today we are talking roadless areas, those spots on
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: the map that are left just a little bit more
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: blank than the rest, Those places where you can get
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: away from the crowds, those spots that we're all looking
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: for to try to find that last best honey hole
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: for white tails, or maybe deep in that high mountain
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: basin where you can find those bugling bowls, or maybe
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: where you want to follow those little blue lines to
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: find those high alpine cutthroat streams.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: These last best places that are.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: Protected from roads and everything that comes with them. If
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: you remember earlier the spring, we had a really interesting
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: chat with Ben Goldfarb. He's the author of a book
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: called Crossings. It was all about the impact of roads
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: on wildlife and wild places, and to sum that book
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: up very very succinctly, roads have a huge impact. Now.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: Of course, we need some roads to get access to
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: these places, and we have many, many, many of them.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: In the case of the topic we'll be discussing today,
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: we're talking about US Forest Service lands, where there are
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: nearly four hundred thousand miles of roads already. But there
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: are these last places that have been protected for those
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: of us who want to get back in there and
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: have a wilder experience. Those same places are now threatened
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: in a really profound way. There's a rule that most
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: folks don't know about. It was called the roadless area rule,
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: and this protected, as I mentioned at the top, more
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: than fifty eight million acres of roadless areas left in
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: our forest system. Those have been, like I said, really
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: really special places for many of us, kind of unbeknownst
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: to us they're protected in this special way. Well, recently
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: the government has proposed removing that rule and opening up
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: this fifty eight million acres of backcountry wild wide open
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: places to new roads and development. So what's that going
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: to mean for hunting, What's that going to mean for fishing?
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: What's that going to mean for the elk and deer
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: and bears and fish and critics of all types that
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: live there. That's the question or those are the questions
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: that we are going to be answering today. And my
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: guest is somebody who has a really deep understanding of
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: this issue and of this protection, this roadless Area rule,
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: because he actually helped write it.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Our guest today is Chris Wood.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: He is currently the president and CEO of Trout Unlimited,
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: but in his former life he did work for the
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: US Forest Service, and he helped the Chief of the
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: Forest Service back at this period late nineties early two
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: thousands to develop this rule, develop these protections, and to
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: really come to this decision that this is the best
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: long term decision to protect these last places for future
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: generations or wildlife, for hunting and angling, and so so
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: many other reasons. So today Chris is going to help
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: us understand the history, how these places came to be,
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: how these places were protected, why the roadless rule is
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: so important, what has done, what it has done for
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: hunting and fishing and wildlife and so many other things.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: And we're also going to discuss some of the controversy
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: around it. What have been the arguments that people who've
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: been against this protection, what are those arguments been, And
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: then a whole bunch of explanation of why this has
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: been such a smart protection to put in place, Why
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: these places are worth protecting and conserving and keeping around
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: not just for us now, but for our kids and
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: grandkids and all those that come after us. Finally, we
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: are going to discuss what happens if the proposed rollback
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: of this rule actually happens.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: What happens if these.
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: Fifty eight point five million acres of our last roless
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: areas end up getting re roaded or newly roaded. What
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: ends up if they end up developed in new ways
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: than they have been in the past. What's that future
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: look like. Is there any reason or a way for
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: us to stop that? Do we have any influence at
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: that point. These are the questions and the topics we
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: discussed today with Chris Wood. He is a tremendous spokesperson.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: He has a lot to share, a lot of experience.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Whether you are.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: A white tail hunter, or an elk hunter, or a
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: black bear hunter, or a trout angler, or somebody who
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: just likes to every once in a while get away
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: from the crowds.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: This is a conversation that is.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: Going to be really important for you to hear, to understand,
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: and I hope to take action on. So, without any
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: further beating around the bush, let's get to my chat
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: today with Chris Wood about the history and the future
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: of America's last roadless areas.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: All right with me now, is Chris Wood? Welcome to
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: the show.
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: Chris, Thanks Mark, it's great to be here.
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: I'm very excited to have this chat today for multiple reasons.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: One of the reasons, and this is like the ancillary one.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: The main reason is because of the time topic. But
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: the secondary reason I'm so excited is that parallel to
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: my love of hunting and whitetails especially, I have an
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: equal love for fly fishing that over the last fifteen
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: years has been growing and growing and growing and maybe
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: almost superseding my hunting obsession. But I rarely get to
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: have someone on the show who is as obsessed as
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: I am, or more obsessed than I am, on those
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: sets of topics. So it's great to share a podcast
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: today with a fellow trout nut in fly fishing a fishionado.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So thank you for bringing that to the show today.
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, man, of course, Mark, I'm also a big time
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: whitetail hunter, and I like that you said a fly
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: fishing a ficionado, because even though I get I have
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: the privilege of working for Trout Unlimited, I love catching
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: anything that swims on my fly.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I understand you do a lot there on
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: the Potomac and some of your local rivers on the
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: East side there.
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, yeah. I've been known to ride my bike
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: to work with a broken down fly rod held on
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: my handlebars and I'll hop off and I'll fish some
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: of our little urban creeks at different times of the year.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: That's amazing.
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  Speaker 3: I love you know. This is this idea of like
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: micro adventures. So many people think that you need to
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: travel out west or go to some big, far flung
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: destination to have a wild experience and to connect with.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: The natural world.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: But but I think what you're talking about right there
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: is is a really great example of finding that wildness
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: wherever you are, right yeah.
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: Man, you know, we actually did. We have a wonderful magazine.
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: For those of you who aren't members, you should become
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: a member just to get the magazine. But we did
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: this issue called Blue Lines. And you know, Blue Lines
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  Speaker 4: for me was a famous book that I had heard
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: about when I was a kid, by an author named
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: William least heat Moon. And what he did was he
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: traveled the small ancillary highways across America, staying off the interstates,
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: and I think it was called Blue Lines actually. But
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: but you know, what we meant in the magazine of
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: Black Blue Lions was getting off the Madison, getting off
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: the gallot and getting up into the headwaters of these systems,
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  Speaker 4: getting up into some of these roadless areas that have these,
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: you know, really high populations of genetically pure native trout
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: and salmon. But in an urban environment, we have blue
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: lions too. You know. We've got this wonderful river, the Potomac,
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  Speaker 4: which is very underfished in its own right, but we
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: have these tributaries that feed into it. And I can't
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: tell you how many times, in a city of you know,
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: seven hundred thousand people, I have found myself the only
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: person on an urban fishery catching fish handover fist. I
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: love it well.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know a lot about the Potomac.
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: I've never fished there, but I just finished reading a
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: book called The Silent Spring Revolution by Douglas Brinkley. I
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: don't know if you're familiar with that one.
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  Speaker 4: I know Douglas Brinkley, but I haven't read that book.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a terrific book.
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  Speaker 3: It's all about the environmental history of the long sixties,
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  Speaker 3: so the sixties, the early seventies, and there was a
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: whole lot in there about William Douglas, the Supreme Court justice,
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  Speaker 3: who was a tremendous conservationist. I don't think a lot
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: of people today remember that, but he fought so hard
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  Speaker 3: to protect that. I guess there's a canal that runs
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: somewhere around there as well, the O and O Canal,
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  Speaker 3: Is that right?
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  Speaker 2: You can that's it?
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  Speaker 3: And there's a hiking trail through there that he, you know,
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  Speaker 3: ended up helping secure as a national park now and
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: and all sorts of stuff. So I learned a lot
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: about that region that was really interesting. And and turns
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: out there's some really special places that are left in
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  Speaker 3: a somewhat wild, undeveloped place because of you know, advocacy
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: for those close to home places.
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: That's no, that's exactly right. I mean, it's I could
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: go on and on here, and you're you're catching me.
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  Speaker 4: As we talked about before the call. My mom just
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: passed away on Monday. But mom and dad met in Washington,
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: d c. And Dad went to school at Georgetown, which
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: is on the banks of the Potomac, and then he
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: went to law school there. And here me talking about
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: going down there. We have a wonderful shad run that
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: happens in the spring of the year and shattered down
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: across the entire northeast, but in the Potomac there on
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: the way back up. And my father would say, you
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: go to the Potomac, And he said, man, when I
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: was in school there in the sixties, to your point,
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: we wouldn't go near there for fear of getting sick.
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: He used to fear that they would get sick on
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: the river. And today that C and O Canal that
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: you're talking about although the Park Service is taking a
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: long time to fix some parts of the canal and
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: so it's been drained, but it's a wonderful carp fishery
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: fly for flyer writters. You can bike along that path
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: that you mentioned that people hike and you look for
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: tailing carp and it's just it's the coolest experience to
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: be in a city, in that city, right in the
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: in the birthplace of the clean water, for gosh sake,
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: and you know, almost in the span of my lifetime
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: to see that river turn around from one that was
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: a scary place that people wouldn't go for fear of
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: getting sick, to one that today when I take my
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: kids out there to fish, when the shad move up
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: the river because the stripers are following them, and the
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: ale wives are in the river, and all the you know,
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: the birds of prey, the osprey, the bald eagles. Last
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: year we saw two bald eagles juveniles chasing away a
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: golden eagle. We've got comorant. I mean, it's just the
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: diversity of life in the river is incredible, and it's
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: because of people like William Douglas and others in the
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: sixties and the seventies who basically said this is a
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: national disgrace. There is absolutely no reason that the nation's
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: river shouldn't be clean and healthy, and it is so
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: much more so today than it was back then thanks
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: to those giants.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's a perfect segue into our topic today
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: because we can look back there in the sixties and
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: seventies and see where many places had gone downhill tremendously
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: and had to be restored. But at the same time,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: there was also the beginning. I mean, it's been going
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: on for decades and decades before that, but there were
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: significant updates to protections for those last places that were
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: in a healthy state. And that leads us to what
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: we're going to talk about today, which is another such
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: set of protections that have kept some of our last
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: wild roadless healthy watersheds and forests and landscapes in that state. So,
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: without further ado, I guess we should just get right
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: into it, Chris, And what I'd love to start with
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: is a elevator pitch. If you were on the elevator
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: with a hunter or angler who was not familiar with
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: the roadless rule, but they've been hearing it kind of
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: buzzed around the last month or so, as more and
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: more people are talking about it, I'd love to hear
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: your elevator pitch on what the Roadless Rule is, why
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: it's relevant to hunters and anglers, and what they should
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: know about it to start this conversation.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: So that's that's step one. Yeah, we'll leave it that.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: I'll I'll let you start with that and then we'll
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: move for.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's great, Thank you for that question. The
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: Roadless Rule protects fifty eight and a half million acres
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: of some of the finest hunting and fishing habitat on
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: the planet. And that's why you should care if you
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: hunt and you fish, especially if you hunt and fish
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: on public lands, even private because a lot of times
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: the game is making you know, it's winter habitat is
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: you know, is up on public lands and then it
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: moves down onto the private lands depending on the species.
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: But if you fish or hunt, especially if you fish
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: or hunt on public lands and waters, you need to
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: make your voice heard to keep these landscapes protected because
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: they are they're the goose that lays the golden egg
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: for all of us.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, that's a very good succinct. Setting the stage
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: for us.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: Now, I want to rewind the tape and I want
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: to get in deep and start with how it all began.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: And you are the perfect person to help us with us, because,
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: as I understand it, you are quite intricately involved in
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: developing this set of protections, the Rowless Rule. So how
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: did you get involved with the Royless Rule? What did
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: that look like for you personally?
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: Such a good question. Mark, Yeah, when we when I
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: started working on this rule, I had a full head
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: of brown hair. But you can't tell it's not brown anymore,
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: and it ain't full either. So I'll get to the
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: personal point in a minute, but I think the institutional
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: point is almost just as important. So from from nineteen
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: sixty to nineteen eighty nine, the United States Forest Service,
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: which was held up in the sixties, going back to
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: that era of the sixties by some of the famous
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: historians of the ear people like Harold Stein, they used
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: to hold the Forest Service up as this, you know,
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: sort of this iconic agency, this fable to spree decors
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: and people who all had the same sense of mission.
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: And so basically what happened after before World War Two,
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: the agency was very much created by some of our
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: you know our legendary conservation fore bears like Theodore Roosevelt
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: and Gifford Pinchot to basically be an antidote to the
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: rapacious private timber industry which had been liquidating forests. Basically,
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: they started in New England. They marched down to the southeast,
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: they march up to the Great Lakes, and then they
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: moved their way across west the west. And it was
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: before we had forest management practices acts, before there was
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: a Clean Water Act, I mean, and people didn't know
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: they were They were just making a living and they
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: were creating homes for all of us. I mean, so
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: some of us live in those homes to this day
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: that were created from some of that land. I've got
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: a nineteen o six row house in Washington, d c.
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: With hart pine flooring. It's yellow pine without a blemish
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: in it. You wouldn't know it as pine today. But
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: these were big old yellow pines that they cut in
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: the southeast and made into flooring because they're so the
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: hard wood is even though it's a soft wood technically
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: though it's a very hard wood. It's perfect for flooring anyway.
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: But and what happened from the sixth basically after World
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: War Two, when everyone, all the servicemen returned home, the
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: Forest Service turned toward helping to meet the wood fiber
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: needs of the nation. And so as a result, between
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: nineteen sixty and nineteen eighty nine, and this is just
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: as a unit of measurement, it's less important to know
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: what it means, the agency allowed for the production of
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: about nine to twelve billion board feet of timber a year.
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: And just as a frame of reference, it costs it
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: takes about thirty thousand board feet to create a single
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: family home. And it was consistent nine to twelve billion
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: board feet.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: It varied in different parts of the country, but there
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: was an especial emphasis in the seventies and the eighties
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: in the Pacific Northwest. And that all came crashing down
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: nineteen in the late eighties. And so what had happened
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: as the agency had created a series of rules that
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: said they had to create these minimum they had to
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: protect minimum viable populations of species. And we had passed
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: laws like the Endangered Species Act, which are designed to
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: keep species from winking out, from going extinct. And so
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: there was a little furtive owl, a native owl called
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: the northern spotted owl which habituated these old growth forests
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: in Washington, Oregon, different parts of the Pacific Northwest, and
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: that's where the bread basket of the timber industry was.
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: That's where they were really cutting. In a couple of
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: those separate forests, they were taken out over a billion
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: board feet of timber from one forest a year, and
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: so that all stopped. There was a judge in the
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: Pacific Northwest who ruled that the agency had been demonstrating
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: a quote reckless disregard for the law in how it
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: was managing these forests, because it had gone from taking
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: this very sort of custodial approach which to protecting public
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: lands into this we've got to get the cutout to
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: meet the growing, you know, timber needs of the nation. Again,
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: completely well intentioned, no malice here, no ill will. And
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: at the same time that those spotted owls were declining,
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: we saw these precipitous declines in salmon and steelhead populations.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: Back in the nineties. There were early nineties there was
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: a seminole paper that came out that documented one hundred
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: and six stocks of salmon from the Pacific Northwest that
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: had already become extinct and two hundred and fifteen that
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: were then at risk of extinction. And so that was
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: nineteen eighty nine that that injunction on timber harvest came down.
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: And from nineteen eighty nine until the time that Mike
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: Dombeck became chief eight years later, they had been cutting
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: about two to three and a half billion board feet
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: of timber, so down from twelve to two or three billion.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: And the whole edifice of the Forest Service, this forty
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: thousand strong organization that oversees one hundred and ninety three
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: million acres of public land, it was built on the
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: back of this timbersale program. The biologists that so many
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: of us respected and knew as young professionals, they came up.
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: They were being paid for by proceeds from timber sale receipts.
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: All the roads that we used to access National Forest
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: to hunt and fish, those were built to facilitate timbersale.
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: And so the agency had been in this eight year
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: period of transition when Mike Dombeck became chief in ninety seven,
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: and it had completely lost its way. The agenda was
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: being driven by the environmental community who was litigating the
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: Forest Service into obsolescence. There were many in Congress who
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: were unhappy that the Forest Service wasn't getting cut out.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: They weren't cutting the nine to twelve billion board feet
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: of timber anymore. There was an equal number on the
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: other side, who you know, we're looking at things like
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: the fact that the agency had oversight of a three
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: hundred and eighty six hundred thousand mile road systems wrap
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: your head around in a minute, and we were over
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: and there was about an eight and a half billion
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: dollar with a b backlog on maintenance of that existing
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: road system. And so I think what what Mike and
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: others of us who were in the agency at that
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: time decided, was, you know, why should the Forest Service
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: let other people dictate this storied conservation organization where people
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: like Arthur Carrhart worked and Bob Marshall and Aldo Leopold,
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: I mean, the fathers in this case of Rachel Carson
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: was of course efficient Wildlife Service employee. I wish we
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: could have claimed her, but you know, really the fathers
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: of the modern conservation movement, of the North American wildlife
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: model came out of the Forest Service, and yet the
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: agency had this historically very uneasy relationship with wilderness. And
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: even though Arthur Carhart and Bob Marshall and Aldo Leopold
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: in particular, are really the the whole wilderness concept originated
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: from that. The agency had this uneasy relationship with it
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: because when you designate wilderness and these are you know,
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: for the Act, these are lands where quote man is
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: a visitor who you know does not remain so and
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: you can't use any mechanical leverage when you're in wilderness.
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: You have to use your feet that God gave you.
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: And you know, that was almost anathema to how the
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: agency had begun to evolve through the sixties and the
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: seventies in the eighties, where it was this highly mechanistic,
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: highly you know, engineered organization where it's like, we're going
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: to go build these roads into these steep slope areas.
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: We're going to cut those trees we haven't been able
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: to access because we have better technology today, and then,
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: by God, we're going to take that wood and get
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: it to market. And then what would happen is as
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: the easier wood got taken off the National Forest System,
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: the slopes that you had to climb to get to
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: the timber that was left were steeper, and they were
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: on more granitek or erosed soils, and the timber that
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: was left it wasn't as valuable. So now the agency
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: was pumping these roads into these low value areas where
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: they weren't getting the timber values they had historically gotten.
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: So they were losing money on these sales. They were
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: building these roads that were falling off the landscape into
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: these trout and salmon streams that were below them, and
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: they had this eight and a half billion dollar maintenance
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: backlog on the existing road system. And it was from
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: that background and agency's morale was in the tank. It
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: was absolutely so. I mentioned Harold Steen in that nineteen
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: sixty one work where he talked about the fabled spreed
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: core of the Forest Service. In their early nineties, they
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: came out with another survey of all the government agencies
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: in the federal government, and the number two agency with
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: the lowest morale was the US Forest And from that background,
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: that's when you know, we said, well, wait a minute,
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: most Americans value their public lands not for energy development,
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: not for oil or gas or coal. Those are important.
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: They don't value them for wood, fiber or for forage.
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: Those are also important, But most of us we value
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: those places for the sense of naturalness they provide, and
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: the wildness and clean water, and the fish and wildlife habitat,
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: and the fact that they are what remains. They're the
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: you know, I have said this before in a different context,
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: but the public lands are They're the anvil upon which
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: the character of the nation was hammered out as we
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: migrated our way west. And unlike every other country in
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: the world, we had the wisdom to keep them intact,
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: to save them, because we realized that just as you know,
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: you you know, the Egyptians take pride in their in
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: their pyramids, and in Italy prides itself on its ancient cathedrals.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: France it's museums. We have our public lands, and those
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: are as much as what it means to be American
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: as anything else in the United States. And so anyway,
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: that was the backdrop, and I think Mike, who was
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: leading this organization, was saying, I don't want the courts
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: to be driving our conservation agenda. And God bless the
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: environmental community, because if they hadn't raised the alarm, we
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: probably would have taken all the old growth. But I
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: don't want them driving our agenda either, And you know,
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: I really don't want members of Congress who definitely have
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: to appropriate the dollars we need. But you know, there's
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: very few foresters in Congress. They shouldn't be driving the agenda.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: Let's take back. Let's take back the agenda. The first
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: thing he said was, look, you know we were governed
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: in large park by We called it the rule of holes.
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: And I'll stop here, Marcus, I probably gave you more
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: than you wanted. The rule of holes. It's quite simple.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: When you're dig in a hole and you find yourself
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: over your head, the first thing to do is put
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: down the shovel, and that's what we wanted to do.
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: We wanted to put down the shovel. It's like, look,
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: we can't take care of this road system we already have.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: It's three hundred and eighty six thousand miles strong, but
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: it's fallen off these hillsides into creeks all across the
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: United States. Let's focus on doing a better job of
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: managing access into our national forests. So because people love
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: to get in there, but also let's realize that these
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: remaining roadless areas, as I said earlier, the timber values
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: are typically low. They're hard to get to, or we
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: would have cut them previously, and what's happened over time
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: is their fish and wildlife values have just flown off
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: the chart. And so we said there is an inherent
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: value in keeping these places wild. Let's keep them wild.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: That doesn't mean you can't go in to them. I mean,
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: we'll talk about this when we talk about this proposal
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: that's been offered by the administration. But there's been a
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: ton of management that has occurred in these roads areas.
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: But what it means is you don't need to pump
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: a road in everywhere. Yeah right, you know. I mean,
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: today's technology is so much better than it was in
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: the sixties and the seventies, where you couldn't do a
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: timber sale back then if you didn't build a road.
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: That is not the case today. And so anyway, that's
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: what that was the backdrop that led to, you know,
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: the promulgation of the roadless Area Conservation Rule, which ended
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: up protecting fifty eight and a half million acres back
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: in two thousand and one.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: That is an amazing context for us, and that's perfect
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: And to your point, there's all these important resources that
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: we can garner from our public lands. But one of
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: those resources that is becoming more and more rare across
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: the world, and by default more and more valuable. Because
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: of that are those las few unroaded places. We have
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: transformed more than fifty percent of the Earth's surface, Far
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: more of our forests, far more of our grasslands have disappeared.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: I mean we have across this nation. We have so
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: few places left like this. And you know, Roosevelt and
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: Pinchot when they were establishing all this, they spoke about
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: maybe the north star of all of our management should
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: be thinking about future generations, not making decisions for the
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: short term only, but also thinking about the long term.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: I think that is well, you just you nailed it. Mark.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: In fact, Gifford Pinchot, you know this is one of
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: these things. Those of us who are in DC love
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: these things, and I've been involved in this too. He
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: wrote direction for the Secretary of Agriculture to then be
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: given to himself. The direction that he wrote was that
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: the national forests should be managed for the greatest number,
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: for the longest time. And I'm getting that quote wrong,
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: And I know my friends from the Forest Service are
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: going to get mad at me for not remember but.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: The greatest number, for the greatest good for the longest time.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: For the longest time. That's it. Thank you, Mark, you
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: just saved me. But that's the that's the point, right,
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: I mean when when when these reserves, they were called
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: forest reserves, were created, they were designed to be almost
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: like a bulwark against the liquidation of timberlands across private
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: land across America and state lands. I mean, that's you know,
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: one of the reasons that organizations like Child Unlimited have
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: a hard time looking at, you know this notion, well,
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: we won't divest your public lands. We won't sell them
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: to rich people who are going to build fences and
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: post them no no trespassing. We'll just give them to
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: the states to manage. Well, most of the states, almost
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: all the western states, have constitutional mandates to manage their
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: state lands to generate revenues for schools and roads. And
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: so that's why most of the states have sold most
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: of their state lands. And that would exactly be the
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: future of the National Forests or the BLM public plans,
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: which is why you know, what the Senate was considering
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: a month or so ago was so by the time
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: this is shown, was you know, considered offensive to so
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: many of us who hunt and fish. But what Pinchot
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: and Roosevelt and those early pioneers in the Forest Service
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: saw is that these are lands that should be managed
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: conservatively for the long run. And the most conservative, I mean,
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: one of the most conservative policies that I can think
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: of that the US government has implemented over the past
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: twenty five years is the Roadless Area Conservation Rule because
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: it basically says we're going to keep intact these systems
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: that are unroaded. They're not unmanaged. You know, we can
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: talk about that there's been a ton of forest health
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: treatments in these in these roadless area landscapes. But you know,
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: the true definition of conservation is to It comes from
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: the Latin word conservaari conservai, and that means to hold
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: or keep in a safe state. And that's precisely what
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: the roadless Rule did, is it keptain held in a
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: safe state these backcountry areas.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: Okay, So that is what led us to this point
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: where the Forest Service realized, Okay, we need to do
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: something a little bit different. We need to regain some
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: sense of agency for our agency. Yeah, to termine how this.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Thing is going to move forward.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: Can you spell out for me how how you and
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: the Chief chief domback and the rest of the team
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: were able to develop the road the roadless rule as.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: It as it stands. Now what that looked like.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: And I know there was so much controversy, There was
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: so much back and forth, something like one point six
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: million public comments, I believe on the proposal. So I'd
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: love to understand what that looked like and then what
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: led to the final output, Like what the final output
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: looked like given all of this back and forth and
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: public perspectives and everything like that.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, so one of the things I've appreciated
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: about I started my career early on at the Bureau
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: of Land Management and then and then I moved over
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: to the Forest Service during this period that we're talking about,
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: and you know, the wisdom that was imparted to me
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: by these long time career professionals has guided me to
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: this day. And I I've written about this in the past.
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: It's what's so offensive to me about how a lot
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: of these public servants have been treated because they're good people.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: And there's not a single person who didn't go to
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: work for the US Forest Service or the Bureau of
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: Land Management, not a single one who didn't go because
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: they wanted to make the world a better place. That's
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: what they all wanted. And so but I say that,
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: but what I wasn't hampered with at that time in
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: my life was a thirty year career at the same agency.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: And so you know, it's why I alwaysppreciate, you know,
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: with Trout Unlimited, when we bring in younger people into
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: the management ranks or into leadership positions, because they just
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: look at the world slightly different. They're not stuck in
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: the same ruts that I'm now stuck. But at the time,
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: I remember thinking, so, we've got this an eight and
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: a half billion dollar maintenance backlog. We've got a road
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: system we can't take care of. The other thing I
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: hadn't mentioned is that the House of Representatives had passed
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: a vote and amendment that would have cut the Forest
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: Service's road budget by eighty percent, including all the maintenance
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: of the existing road system. And they did that as
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: a surrogate to get us to stop building new roads
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: into roads. Every one of these roadless sales, every one
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: of them were litigated. They were all held up in court.
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: And we're talking about timber sales that lose money. So
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: it's like we're expending public tax dollars to get into
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: these areas that have low timber values, to put a
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: bunch of roads on the landscape that are going to
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: fall off, and they're going to ruin the fisheries down below.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: And by the way, they're going to increase fire starts
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: because roads increase fire starts, and they're going to drive
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: out ungulate they're going to drive out wild populations. And
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: so I looked at that, you know, the eyes of it,
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: you know, a young guy, and I was like, well,
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: why are we doing this at all? Right, like if
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: we can't get the timber out anyway. It was a
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: completely incidental contribution to the Forest Service timber base. I
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: mean we're talking this was less than it was like
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: a percent, and that was a that was a prixotic
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: percent because it was always held up in court for
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: fifteen years. So the value of that percent decreased over
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: every year that it was held up at court. And
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: and so we just and then and then we started
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: thinking about, like, well, what is it most people really
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: care about public lands for? And again it command we
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: had been managing these landscapes for thirty forty years as
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: this bread basket of commodity to be brought to market.
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: But but nobody else thought of them that way. These
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: were places where families that couldn't afford to go to,
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: you know, a resort, would take their kids camping in
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: the summer. They were places where, you know, when you know,
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: I have the benefit of working a child unlimited, and
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: sometimes I get to go to these swank places where
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: you know, it costs like thousand dollars a day to fish.
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: Most Americans can't afford that. We can go to your
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: public lands. You can catch brook chout in the Green
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: Mountain National Forest to your heart's content or closer to me, uh,
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: you know the you know, the Monogahila in West Virginia
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: for brook chowd or out west. There's countless national forests
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: where you can go to, all of which are strongholds
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: for native fish. And so we realized that was the seat,
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: that was the switch we had to make, and frankly
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: it was it was incredibly controversial, not only outside the
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: Forest Service but inside the agency. It was controversial because
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: you had these people who, you know, their forest their
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: engineers there there can do people, they solve problems, they
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: know how to fix things, and they were like, no,
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: we can build better roads. We can, we can you know,
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: figure out different ways to get into those back country areas.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: And it was like, yeah, we could, and I don't
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: doubt that, but we could also just leave them alone,
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: just leave them as God created them. Let's have what's
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: wrong with having some reference landscapes from a fish and
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: wildlife perspective, and you know how big the hunting and
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: fishing economies are in this country. Those are our nurseries. Man,
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: Let's leave them alone. They're not going anywhere if we
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: discover some you know, you know, rare earth mineral that's
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: gonna you know, save America from being colonized by Martians
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: down the line, and we need to go get it. Okay, fine,
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: well go get it, but for now, let's just leave
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: them intact. And that was the big shift in thinking
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: that happened back when we did the rule, and it was,
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: as I say, it was incredibly controversial internally. It was
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: also controversial externally kind of sort of of those ninety
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: you know, of those you know, one point eight million,
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: I think it was comments that came in ninety seven
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: freaking percent were in support of protecting roadless soviets or
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: even stronger. And the one thing I would say I
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: would be remiss not to say, was there has been
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: a sea change in thinking at the Forest Service over
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: the past twenty four years, and today some of the
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: strongest advocates for roadless protection come from within the United
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: States Forest Service. This is not a proposal that they
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: would have put out there, guaranteed. This is not being
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: driven by the professionals and for a service. You know,
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: this is a political directive that's been given to them,
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: and I don't know that they have the stomach for this.
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: So we'll have to see what happens through this rulemaking
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: because I I think, as I said earlier, I think
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: some of the strongest advocates for roadless protection today are
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: United States Forest Service employees, and I don't think they
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: want to go back to the battle days where everything's
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: going to get litigated and held up in court.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: So so you helped write this correct You worked with
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: the chief and the.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Staff there to actually develop Yeah, there was a team.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: There was a team of agency professionals who did almost
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: all the heavy lifting. I was I was like the
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: style game, okay, you know, but I did a lot
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: of media work and I did a lot of interagency coordination.
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: And as I we mentioned before this call, one of
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: my jobs was to take all the meetings that the
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: chief didn't want to take, which was, you know, just
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: about all the meetings. And so I heard from a
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: lot of different communities about this topic. But but yeah,
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: I was there. I mean I was there on that team,
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: and I was a part of it.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: Okay, So I want to I want to dive into
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: a little bit more of what resulted of this rule
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: being put in place and finalized. But I think another
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: important thing to note is that you know this, the
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: Forest Service has a multiple use mandate and this did
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: not change that, and that this impacted fifty eight point
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: five million acres of national forest and then there was
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: another you know, x million acres of wilderness, of designated wilderness.
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: But then that's still left I think more than one
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: hundred million acres of or close to that of national
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: forest lands that were still managed fully multiple use, still
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: being utilized as a resource, still you know, supporting local
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: communities that did have some timber jobs, et cetera.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: So it wasn't like we were with this roadless rule
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: shutting down you know, utilizing the forest resources.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: Correct, No, that's exactly right, Mark, I mean look, and
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: to be clear, right, I mean you remiss not to
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: say this wilderness is a multiple use. You know, roadless
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: protection is a multiple use. Leaving these places intact for
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: future generations is a multiple use. But yeah, and even
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: after these areas were protected, we've the trout To Limited
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: Science team has been coming up with some groundbreaking work
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: that we haven't released yet, but I'll let you in
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: on some things I literally got just yesterday. So in
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: the state of Montana, for example, twenty six percent of
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: all the lands that have been treated for hazardous fuels
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: in the past twenty four years have been within inventoried
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: roads series. That number climbs to thirty one percent in
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: the state of Utah, where the proposal emanated to sell
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: or divest our public land legacy, and so these landscapes.
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: We didn't say you can't go in there and manage
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: for hazardous fuels. We didn't say you can't go in
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: there and build, you know, develop oil and gas resources.
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: We didn't say you can't go in there and you know,
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: and do hard rock mining if you've got a valid,
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: existing right to do that. We just said you can't
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: build a road. And you know, like I said earlier,
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: we're not in the sixties anymore. There's a lot more
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: ways to access landscapes today than there are building super
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: expensive roads that have a tendency to want to fall
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: off the landscape into rivers below. So there's been a
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: tremendous amount of forest health treatments in and outside of
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: roadless areas. Inside of roadless areas, I should say, over
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: the past nearly quarter century, where the agency needs to
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: be focused are where those forests are that adjoin human communities.
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: That's where most of the forest health treatments need to
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: take place. We have to protect people in human communities first,
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: and that is where I'm not suggesting that these treatments
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: that I mentioned In places like Utah and Montana, Idaho,
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: they've treated over a million acres of roadless lands for
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: forest health purposes in the past twenty five years. I'm
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: not suggesting that any of that work is bad. I'm
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: sure it's all good and legitimate work. But what is
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: erroneous is to suggest that because of the roadless rule,
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: forest health treatments, hazardous fuels reductions not occur in roadless areas.
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: That is a canard that's simply not true. It's belied
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: by the data. But perhaps the more significant public policy
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: issue that we should wrestle with as hunters and anglers
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: is where do we want the Forest Service doing these
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: hazardous fuels reduction projects? Do we want them going into
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: the back country areas or do we want them hanging
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: around the front country where the fires are going to
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: come down and creep off the national forest primarily from
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: roadedge systems where the vast majority of fire ignition start.
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: And you've got these overgrown forests that already have roads,
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: And why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you focus your treatments
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: on those areas adjacent to the so called wildland urban interviews.
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: Yes, so I want to take a step back and
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: explain this a little bit more for people that maybe
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: aren't familiar.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: So when the roads.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: Rule went into place, it kept this fifty eight point
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: five million acre swath from having new additional roads. In
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: the years since, and really in the years before that,
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: we had wildfire suppression policies that led to, you know,
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: natural fires not happening the way they used to. The
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: management of our forests for many different reasons, maybe has
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: changed in certain ways. That has led to some places
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: being maybe heavily stocked with fuels, and now we have
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: everything with our changing climate that's leading to dryer you
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: know spells and fuel that is just ready and just
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: waiting for a spark to set off. All of that
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: has led to you know, wildfire issues. There's the whole
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: pine beetle outbreak over recent decades has led to a
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: whole lot of dead trees as well. So long story short,
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: Today many politicians like to say that we have undermanaged
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: forests that are bad for wildlife and that are bad
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: for catastrophic wildfire, and so that's bad for hunters and anglers,
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: and that's bad for the health of surrounding communities. And
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: I hear many people blaming that on the roadless rule,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: blaming that on the environmental communities, you know, advocating for
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: protection of our national force.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: So so that's that's the pushback.
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: It's saying, hey, because you guys have these worldless areas
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: or because you designated wilders, now we're not managing our forests.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: That's why it's not supporting as many wildlife. That's why
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: we have horrible wildfires. We need to get in there
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: and do different things.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: So that's the critique.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: Can you take that critique and more and be a
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: little more specific with explaining your perspective on why that
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: is not true.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: Because he just did. But I'd love for you to
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: address it.
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeaheah, Yeah, I'm you know, I'm sitting here. My
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: parents are much on my mind because this is the
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: place where we always retreated as a family for the
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: past thirty years where I am now And as I
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: mentioned earlier, Mom just passed away and Dad passed away
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: a few years before. Dad was one of he was
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: voted one of one hundred best basketball players in Newark history,
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: and he played in like nineteen fifty five. I mean,
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: so the fact that they remembered him today, it's a
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: remarkable For a few years ago, and I remember telling
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: my dad and I played basketball, and I remember telling Dad,
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: you know, the reason I'm not a good basketball player
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: is that I stopped growing at six', One and he would, say, No,
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: chris the reason you're not as good as you could
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: have been because you didn't practice hardbough and you didn't
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: work enough on your off, hand and you had too
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: many other things that distracted you and kept you preoccupied
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: from becoming a great basketball. Player saying that the roadless
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: rule is keeping is contributing to those problems that you
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: described well a moment ago mark is like saying That
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: chris didn't become a good basketball player at six one
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: six y two because he didn't grow a couple more.
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: Inches it's just not. True the fact is that across
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: The Western United, states every single landscape are systems that
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: evolved with, fire and some, cases like on the west
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: side of The, cascades the fire was what we would
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: call catastrophic, today would come every one hundred or two hundred,
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: years and in lodge pole stands it would do this,
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: naturally it would come, in you'd have these big. Disturbances
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: you'd either have wind throw that would knock all the
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: seventy five year old lodge pole, over or you'd have
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: big fires that would move through and burn it all
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: to the. Ground we you, know starting you, know one
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: of the you, know legacy issues of the Early Forest
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: service was every fire should be put out by ten.
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: Am and so what we did is we we took these,
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: systems these ecological systems that evolved with, fire and we
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: said no more fire every by ten. Am Forest services
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: standing orders where we're going to put fire. Out AND
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: i mean it was a completely understandable. Reaction we had
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: horrible fires that killed multiple, firefighters burnt communities to the
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: ground in places Like idaho And, montana and they happened.
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: Today it's it's not just a relic of the. Past them,
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: afraid but it's in part because we've you, know there's
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: there's for those of us who study, rivers there's a
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: there's a saying you. Can't you can't ever divorce a
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: river from its. Floodplain you can, try you can dig,
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: it you can dike, it you can ditch, it you
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: can build burns up alongside, it but eventually that river
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: is going to find its floodplain and it's going to
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: take everything in the floodplain with it. Downstream and you
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: can't divorce these fire adapted systems from. Fire it just
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: can't be. Done and so the answer then, is, well
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: how do you in the places where we've built. Communities
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: we can't unbuild. THEM i don't think that's, Realistic but
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: we can take steps to make those communities themselves really.
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: Safe we can make sure that they don't have wood shingle,
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: roofs we can make sure that they don't have you,
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: know landscaping close flammable landscaping close to the. House we
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: can make sure that if they're adjacent To National force
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: forests ninety five percent of which will have been roaded,
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: already they'll be part of the general forest structure that
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: you mentioned. Earlier we can make sure that we have
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: done a lot of thinning and other treatments in those
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: landscapes so that if a fire does, start because a
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: fire will, start it's gonna, happen that we have a
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: better chance of knocking it. Down that we don't have
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: all these because the results of every fire out by
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: ten am was instead of having you, know twenty five
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: trees per acre in some, stands we'd have one hundred and.
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: Fifty there's just a lot more fuel than there used to.
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: Be and what happens is over time if you don't
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: go in and manage these. Stands So i'm agreeing on
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: the management. Part you, know you have stands that are
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: different levels of the, canopy and so the fire will create,
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: it it'll climb until you get it, exactly and you'll
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: get these so called stand replacement. Fires and so we
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: need to be able to get into these landscapes and
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: look at ecologically where should they have? Been can we
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: safely reintroduce fire and in those landscapes where we, can by,
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: god we need to do. That we can't pretend. TO i,
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: mean some of WHAT i hear today at The Forest,
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: service it's almost like we're just sort of trying to
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: forget about thirty forty years of fire. Science like the
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: agency knows that we've got to get more fire back
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: into these, systems but we have to do it in
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: a safe. Way and the way you do it in
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: a safe way is you make sure that the communities
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: themselves are protecting, themselves that the forests around the communities are,
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: protected and by, gosh if those are roadless areas adjacent
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: to those, communities and we need to make sure they
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: were going in, there and you, know reducing unnaturally large
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: fuel loads to thereby reduce unnaturally large. Fires and that
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: gets to a really important point THAT i want to.
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: Make i'm not suggesting that we haven't learned anything relative
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: to forest management or fire science over the past twenty four.
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: Years that we had all the thinking right twenty four years.
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: Ago AND i think if the administration had come in and, said,
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: look we want to look at this rule in the
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: context of what we've learned over the intervening couple decades
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: and make sure we're applying the best science to better
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: protecting these extremely important ecological values of roadless. Areas oh
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: and making sure that these communities are safe. TOO i,
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: mean troud and limited would be at the, leader we'd
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: be right in the front of that. Conversation but that's
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: not what they're. Saying they're, basically you, know coming up
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: with these sort of artificial nineteen forties era arguments that
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: we need to build roads into roadless areas to fight,
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: fires we need to build. Roads there's not a firefighter
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: In america who will tell you that you need to
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: build a road when there's a fire on the ground
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: to put out a. Fire that's just as a that's,
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: dissembling that's all that. Is But i'm not suggesting that
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: there might be some other techniques that we want to
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: specify that should be applied in treating some of these
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: landscapes that we did know about a, while you, know
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: twenty four years. Ago but unfortunately that hasn't been the
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: direction that the administration has taken. Initially and you, know
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: my hope is that with enough voices from enough hunters and,
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: anglers they'll change that perspective and they'll they'll they'll pivot
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: to something that looks at this from a more constructive
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: method of how do we better protect roadless areas and
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: better protect human?
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: Communities now correct me If i'm, wrong and you would
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: know this much better THAN. I but weren't there some
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: exceptions built into the roleless rule that said that roads
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: could be built into these places if it was needed
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: to protect public health and safety and because of catastrophic.
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: Wildfire and weren't there exceptions that said that if management
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: more active management was needed to help threaten wildlife species
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: and you could do this with some cutting of small diameter,
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: trees roads could be built to accomplish those goals. Too
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: so weren't there some kind of roundabouts to address these.
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: Concerns, yeah it's exactly, Right, Mark and one of the
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: things that we're, doing you, know, Sadly i'm not sure
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: we can expect The Forest service to do, it but
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: one of the things that we're doing is looking at
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: those like you, KNOW i mentioned to you that you
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: know the stats About utah And, Montana idaho And arkansas
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: where the chairman of The House Natural Resources committee. Lives
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: a third of all the roadless areas in the state
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: Of arkansas have been treated for hazardous fuel treatments under
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: these exceptions that you're talking. About so there was a
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: prohibition on timber cutting except for you, know the kind
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: of timber cutting that it leads to the forest health
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: treatments that we're talking, about the hazardous fuels reductions that
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: need to be, done and so we're trying to document
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: all of that and get it all in on. Place
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: well at the same time looking at the SO i,
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: mean just take like the state Of. Idaho if you
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: look at the fisheries values of roadless areas in the
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: state Of, idaho sixty eight percent of all bull trout
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: are dependent on roadless areas for their, survival fifty eight
• 52:09
  Speaker 4: percent of all west in the state Of, idaho of
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: all west slope cutthroat trout are dependent on roadless areas
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: for their survival seventy four. Percent nearly three quarters of
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: all the habitat for chinook and steelhead are found in
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: roadless areas in the state Of. IDAHO i, mean he's
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: and you, know and again going back To, idaho BECAUSE
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: i used to hunt out there in the Frank Church
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: River No Return. Wilderness the longest center fire rifle seasons
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: are in roadless areas in the state Of idaho because
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: that's where the most game. Is and so you, know
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: we're we're working really hard AT tu to make sure
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: that all that data is put into the public, conversation
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: because the agency is going to have to go through
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: what they call a rule making. Process they can't undo
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: the roadless rule with the stroke of a. Pen they
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: have to have what they call no notice and comment
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: where people get to view their. Opinions they have to
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: disclose the effects of what the federal government wants to
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: do in a public. Forum that's where they analyze the
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: effects of you, know their proposed. Actions AND i just
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: CAN'T i can't stress enough how important it. Will it's
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: so easy for, people and especially hunters and. Anglers you,
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: know we'd rather be in the woods around the. Water
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: the last thing we want to do is sit at
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: a computer and type up a note to some bureaucrat
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: somewhere who you, know we don't think is going to
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: pay attention to. It so it's so easy for us
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: to just Say i'm not going to. Bother but it
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: is so important that hunters and anglers make their voices
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: heard on this rule more than any. Other. Now three weeks,
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: AGO i would have said the same thing about the
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: whole effort to divest public, plans because that was truly
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: a boneheaded, proposal and we would have stood to gain
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: or lose the most and gain the. Least, today there's
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: no question in my mind that the road this rule
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: is the single most important regulation that benefits hunting and
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: fishing In. America and woe to us if we don't
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: make our voices, heard because we are not people who
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: live in. Cities GENERALLY i, do but you know we're,
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: not you, know urban dwellers who have this sort of
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: disassociated relationship with, Nature like these landscapes are visceral and
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: real to. Us WHEN i hunt in our land In West,
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: virginia OR i hunt on The monoghahila or the Frank church,
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: like you, Know i'm in the. Zone i'm in my happy.
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: Place and typically we're a more conservative lot than most
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: people who are who will participate in these. Processes and
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: the only way we're going to be able to convince
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: the administration to pivot to looking at this from the
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: context of what new information can we bring to bear
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: to better manage world this areas and better protect human.
• 54:55
  Speaker 4: COMMUNITIES i believe the only community that will be able
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: to help them ttration pivot are probably hunters and. Angles
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: and we've got to make our voices heard in a
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: way that they've never been heard. Before and you know, What,
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: Mark i'll tell you. THIS i told you this earlier
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: BECAUSE i know we're probably running. OUT i remember WHEN
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: i took all those meetings for The chief of The Forest.
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: SERVICE i met with all the regulated, industries the oil
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: and gas, guys the coal, guys the timber, folks all of.
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: Them AND i met with all the environmental. Community they
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: all came, In Sierra, club The Center's, wildlife all of
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: them came one side saying you're doing too, Much you're
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: trying to do too, much the other side saying you're
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: not doing, Enough you're not doing. ENOUGH i never had
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: a single meeting request from an organization that represented hunters and,
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: angles not, one not. One the constituency that stood to
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: gain the most was the most absent from this rule
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: making the first time. Around and we have directly hunting
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: and hunters and angles have directly benefited from the roadless
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: rule in the intervening two and a half, decades and
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: if we want to see that kept, intact we want
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: to see those the benefits of those protections. Continued it's
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: absolutely imperative we not sit this one. Out we have
• 56:05
  Speaker 4: got to make our voices.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: Heard and you, know one of the most tangible challenges
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: of our modern day world as a hunter and angler,
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: today and the thing THAT i think gets the most
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: people complaining and upset and riled up is how access
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: has changed and how busy it's, getting whether it be you,
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: know our public land hunting opportunities are a lousy now
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: because there's so many people, everywhere or if it's well
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: you can't float The madison of The Henry's fork without
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: a without a drift, boat hatch and dozens and dozens
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: and dozens of other people, right, well it is these roadless,
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: areas these last handful of places that we have where
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: we have the opportunity to have some degree of, solitude
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: where many of like the last best elk hunting, spots
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: last best mule deer hunting, spots the last best places
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: that we are that we are clamoring for and hoping
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: we can get to. Someday that's what's at stake, here
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: those blue lines that you mentioned, earlier where you can
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: get away from folks and still have that wild experience
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: that no longer can you really have on The madison
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: or down here by me on The Henry's fork or
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: The South. Fork even these places are, rightfully they're very. Popular,
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: yeah we have these last best hunting and fishing locations
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: that are very very tangible FOR i think those of
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: us who care about these things so and it's important
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: To and they're.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: Free they're, free and they're.
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: Free there are is. There they're a birthright of being
• 57:31
  Speaker 4: An american, citizen AND i can you, KNOW i can't
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: guarantee it, obviously but the pressure you're going to find
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: in roadless areas if you're either deer or elk, hunting
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: it's not going to compare to what you're going to
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: find on The National Forest, system where most people pull
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: off on a road to build a campsite and fell
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: camp and they walk around the woods and they'll see
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: all their buddies and camel out with. Them, yeah you,
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: know you just it's a completely different experience. There you're
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: in these back country area and.
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: An, again like people like to complain and, say, well
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: roads mean access and access is, important and we already
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: have nearly four hundred thousand miles of rows through our Forest,
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: service so there's plenty of places for places for folks
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: who want that easy. Access we have just a handful
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: of these places left that you can actually have to
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: really hike. In so those, places like the last ones we,
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: have let's let's protect that one of the multiple. Uses
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: and then again to what we've talked about over and over.
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: Again you, know everyone wants to go back to what
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: we need to. Better we need to more actively manage our.
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: Forests and as we've, discussed there's tens and tens and
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: tens and tens of millions of acres where we can
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: have every type of active management you.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: Want and, yes we need to continue to.
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: Find more ways to make sure the litigation doesn't hold
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: up the appropriate wildlife benefiting.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: Management we need to make sure that we're.
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: Appropriate we do allow for sustainable extraction of timber and
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: the right places to be. Done, absolutely as you were,
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: describing there's a real need for management to deal with
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: these wildfire. Issues there's exceptions in the roadless rule to
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: allow certain things to be done, still so these things
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: are not mutually. Exclusive we can have active management and
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: fire management and.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: Still protect these last roadless places.
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: TOO i think that's something that a lot of the
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: politicians today want to pretend that you have to choose
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: one or the.
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: Other and that's just as they make it a zero some,
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: game and it's. NOT i, mean the fact is that
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: the opponents of the roadless rule have a philosophical argument
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: that they're, making and that philosophical argument is that any
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: constraint on our ability to do anything we want on
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: the landscape is. Problematic what we those of us who
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: are advocates for keeping those places, intact what we have
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: on our side are substantive arguments because of everything you just, Said,
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: Mark because there are exceptions to this rule that allow for,
• 59:51
  Speaker 4: management because there are so many higher priority areas that
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: need to have active management done to protect more people
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: than these remote by definition, landscapes and and AND i
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: think the important thing is that you, know we still
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: live in a. Democracy. Right we're Not, england, Right these
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: aren't this Isn't, robinhood these aren't this isn't The king's, forests,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: Right this is these are our. Forests they're our, forests
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: and The Forest service work for, us and and so
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: and by, extensions so does the. Administration and SO i
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: just THINK i still very much believe in in the
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: power of, democracy AND i believe in the power of
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 4: individual voices to make a difference in the way our,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: lands our lands and waters are. Managed AND i just
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: think it's incumbent on all of us to make sure
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: that we make sure that we our voices are. Heard
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: you can do it through organizations Like Trout, unlimited Or
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: Backcountry hunters And anglers Or Theodore Roosevelt Conservation, Partnership National
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: Wildlie federation as a whole host of. Us now it's
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: not like back you, know twenty four years, ago where
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 4: nobody wanted to go talk about roadless areas to the
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: chief of The Forest. Service it's Different. Now there's a
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: lot of us out there who represent hunters and, anglers
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 4: AND i just encourage everyone who listens to this, show
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: whether you support those organizations or, not figure out how
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 4: to get your voice. Heard because our elected leaders and
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 4: the people that we put in place to manage our
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: lands for, us they will listen to.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: Us so the THING i want to wrap up with
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: is revisiting something you described briefly a moment, ago and
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: then you started to allude to something right. There But
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: i'd like to better understand in detail what does the
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: process look like now moving forward in the coming months
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: as the administration tries to proceed with this, rollback this
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: recision of the roleless. Rule so what are the actual
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: steps that are going to a curve that the administration
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: needs to? Do and then where are the most impactful
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: moments for us as individuals and, Organizations like when do
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: our voices really make out of the most and how
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: are we as effective as possible of communicating. That so so,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: basically this is a long wind of way of, saying
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: how do we most efficiently and effectively make a difference
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: on this?
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: One so there's two. Answers, more there's the public, process,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: right AND i am still a dwed who believes in
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: the public. Process and it's not just BECAUSE i actually
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: split my glasses yesterday playing catch with my, son but
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: don't use your face to catch good. Tip, Yeah so
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: there's the public. Process and so there, there If i'm
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: guessing AND i don't know this for a, fact they
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: have to come out with a public they'll basically come
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: out with a public comment. Period so they'll they'll they'll, say,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: hey here's our. Idea you, know we want to rescind
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 4: the roadless. Rule here's what it. Means and there'll be
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: a public comment period on that, idea and that'll be
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: one opportunity for us to. Engage and then they'll they'll
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: take that back and they'll go into the basement and
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: they'll build their bomb and they'll, Say, okay here's our draft.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: Idea what do you think of our? Idea and that'll
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: be another opportunity to. COMMENT i think the ability to,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: overwhelm overwhelm these agencies with comments from constituents like hunters
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: and anglers is really really important in this public process.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: Period and then they'll come out with a final and
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: there may or may not be comments on. That and
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 4: then what's happened in the intervening twenty four years that
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 4: a lot of people are forgetting about is all these
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: national forests have amended their forest plans and so if
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: there's a rule, change like there's overriding roadless rule gets taken,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: away these individual forests will still have to amend their
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: plans to allow for entry into these back country areas
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 4: because they don't allow, it and these forest supervisors aren't.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: Fools there's going to be VERY i think there'll be
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: some who are politically motivated to do it to curry,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: favor but most are going to, say, MAN i don't
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: want to get involved in that hot. Mess but that's
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: the public. Process and then there's the process that affects
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: the public, process and that's the one THAT i think
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: is frankly more. Important and so there's been a lot
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: of reports about how people like you, know my Friends
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 4: Senator rish And Senator crapo From, idaho they came out
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: opposed to this public land sale, provision and The montana
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: Delegation shi And, dames again good, people good, friends said
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: that they were, opposed and that was. Great what wasn't
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 4: was that they were so that if you Recall senator
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: she he was proposing to introduce an amendment that would
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: strip out the provision that would allow for this not
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 4: allowed mandate the sale of two to three point three
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: million acres of for service AND blm. Land that was
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: adjusted later on and. Change but we had sixteen Other
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: republican senators lined up to oppose to support The shihi,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: amendment sixteen. OTHERS i meant we had twenty. Total think about,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 4: that there's you, know there's almost fifty to fifty in The,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: senate and there's only one reason for. That it is
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: because hunters and anglers From, indiana From, ohio From New,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 4: mexico From, arizona From New, York New, jersey all. Over
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 4: they basically inundated the offices of their members Of congress and,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: said this is a stupid. Idea we will not support.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: This we won't support you if you support. It in,
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 4: fact we want you to tell us you won't Support
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: and that's what. Happened that's why they withdrew. It it would
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 4: have been a devastatingly embarrassing vote for the proponent of that.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: Idea if they had actually let it go to the,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: floor it would lost overwhelm. Me and it was because
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 4: the right hunters and anglers called the right senators and
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 4: put the right bug in their. Ear and that's the.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: Process that's outside the, process and that's where mcmeeat eater
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 4: can be so helpful by getting you, know hunters and
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: anglers who may not be you, know fast talking white
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: guys like me whose job it is to do this
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: stuff on a daily, basis but they may maybe they've
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: guided you, know a senator or a cabinet, member or you,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: know a member of the president's, family and and you,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 4: know the more we can enlist those people as. Advocates
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: so that's again it's outside the regular process THAT i,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: described but often that outside the regular process process is
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: far more. Important but both are important. Here we need
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 4: to have the ground swell of support so we can
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 4: go to the people who don't typically engage in the
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 4: process and, say, dude you're on good ground.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: Here.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: Man ninety five percent of hunters and anglers want to
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: keep these places. Intact you're, okay this isn't some democratic camel's,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: no who was under the, Tent this isn't some liberal.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: Agenda this is about the most conservative thing we can.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: Do we can keep or hold these backcountry areas in
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: a safe.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: State and SO i want to make SURE i understand
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: how so if we were to be contacting our elected,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: officials even though this is not something that's being determined by,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: legislatives yeah means, right.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: The White house will listen to. That so The White
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: house will listen to. Them so it's you, know contact
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: your members Of, congress be They democrats Or, republicans you,
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 4: know contract contact the administration through the regular formal. Process
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 4: but then many of us know people who either work
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: in the, administration they're either cabinet, members or they're associated
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: with cabinet, members or they're associated with the. Family and
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 4: the more we can engage, THOUGH i, mean, LOOK i you,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 4: know try to unlimit. It as a huge advocate for
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: Protecting Bristol, bay And President trump played a ginormous role
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 4: in that back in twenty twenty by denying the key
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: permit to the proponent of that.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: Mind and it was a huge.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 4: Win and, thanks thank You President trump for making this.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 4: POSSIBLE i don't know that that, happens but for the
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 4: fact that his sons had fished up In Bristol bay
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 4: and had publicly said they thought it should be. Protected
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 4: and so that's WHAT i mean by we had done
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 4: a great, job to you of getting hundreds of thousands
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 4: that fishing and hunting community MEET eat or everybody came
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: together on that ONE sims or, everybody all the outdoor,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 4: brands everybody was. Great it wasn't as valuable as one tweet.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: From Donald trump J Donald Trump.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: Junior, yeah thank, Goodness so thank goodness for The Queenjack, river,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: right that's, right The.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 4: Queenjack, yeah my favorite. River IF i were to die
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 4: tomorrow and The lord said you can fish on one more,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 4: river it would be a fish the braids on the.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: Beach to fish the Last.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 4: Fall isn't that place? Special it really? Is CAN i
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 4: tell you a quick fish?
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: STORE i love to love to hear.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 4: It, so SO i was on The Queen. JACK i
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: had to leave a. Day so you, know as you
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 4: know where you at Of Alaska Sportsans.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: Lot, NO i was with With Nancy Lyons nancy and
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: not With. BRIAN i was up by the lakesh.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 4: But Hodgins, place No Crystal.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: Creek this is so embarrassing and they're gonna be so
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: mad at me That i'm forgetting.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 4: This, well let's just cut this part.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: Out, SORRY i met With. Brian edit.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 4: It but but you KNOW I i was in front
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 4: of The alaska Sportsmans, lot which is on The Queen,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: jack AND i KNEW i had to. LEAVE i had
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 4: to actually go To New York city of all, places
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 4: to meet with THE ceo Of tiffany And company to
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 4: get him to help come out against the public, mind
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 4: which he did, Anyway So i'm standing there and we were.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: Drifting it's really cool for your. Listeners you. Know the
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 4: what happens is there's there's this lake Called, iliamna and
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 4: these resident native rainbows live in the lake and they
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 4: they migrate into the. Rivers they followed the salmon and
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 4: they eat their eggs and they eat the flesh of
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 4: the decaying sand because there's so much. Protein and so we.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 4: Swing you can swing, eggs but then you can you
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 4: can also swing with a so called flesh. Floes they're big,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 4: streamers and so you you, know you cast it and
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 4: then you let it swing, downstream and you, know sometimes
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: you'll give it a little. Action and, ANYWAY i was doing,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: that and he got all the way to the end
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 4: of the, run AND i was just talking to you,
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 4: know just kind of you, know jabber jocking with the
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: with the, guide AND i gave it a little strip
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 4: AND i was getting ready to strip more and to
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 4: pick it up and cast, again AND i felt a
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 4: jerk AND i set, strip, set And i'm looking one
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 4: hundred and eighty degrees downstream and over THERE i see
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 4: a fish come out of the. Water AND i looked
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 4: at the guide AND i, said did you see that
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: fish jump over, there and he looks at me and he, said, yeah,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: man that's your. Fish so this fish was all the
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 4: way down there at the end of my line and
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 4: it came out of the water all the way over.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 4: THERE i. Know that's how incredibly strong these fish are
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 4: because they're eating those eggs in that, flesh and it
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 4: was it was only a twenty five inch rainbow and
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 4: they get up over thirty inches there and to this,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 4: day that remains the most memorable Fish i've Ever.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah they.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: Are they are unlike any rainbow Trout i've ever seen or,
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: experience just like superhuman. Trout, yeah AND i remembered it's
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: last Cast. Lodge they're a little bit a smaller outfit up,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: there as With Dagan. Walton really good, people great folks
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: to help out with the with A Guide academy down
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: there and get a lot of.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 4: Fun the Guide academy is. Awesome, yeah they, get they.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: Get they. Do help. Out nancy helps, Out bryan helps,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 4: out our Trit unlimited staff help. Out we basically Get
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 4: Alaska native villagers from The Bristol bay. Area we train
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 4: them to become guides so they can work at these.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: Lodges such a great, program such a special.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: Place, yeah very thankful that we got the right people
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: out there to experience it and and advocate for it
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: to your.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: Point so so, YEAH i think that's that's a terrific.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: Call to action for all of us to do whatever
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: it is that we, can whether that's calling our elected,
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: officials or speaking to our friends and, family or bringing
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: someone else out to experience these places and, say, hey
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: this is one of those roadless AREAS.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: I can speak. TO i killed my first help on
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: one of these roadless.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: Areas my kids have gone and done incredible backpacking trips
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: and hiking trips and had formative experiences in these roadless
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: areas that would be dramatically different if they changed because of.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: This so we have a, say we have a.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: Voice we just saw with the public land sale how
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: impactful our voices can be if we stand up together.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: And really demand. Something so let's do it. Again let's
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: do it.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 4: Again let's do it.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: Again, Well, chris to wrap it, up could you just
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: tell folks where they can learn more about what you
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: guys are doing as an, Organization how can they get
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: involved The Trout unlimited anything else like?
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: That, YEAH i mean you know tu dot org a.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 4: Www dot tu dot org will have a wealth of
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 4: information up. There soon we'll have a whole section on roadless,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 4: areas because we want to get all this information out
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 4: about by state where these roadless lands are and how
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 4: important they are for trout and, salmon and how much,
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 4: activity how much treatment work has been allowed in those.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: Areas just you, know we want to be able to
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 4: counter some of these arguments that we're hearing with. Facts,
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 4: AGAIN i think there's a philosophical argument for getting away
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 4: from the roadless, rule BUT i think the substantive arguments
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: are on our. Side and so we want to make
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 4: sure that people who fish and, hunt to you, supporters
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 4: to you, members they have access to good information to
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: make their voices. Heard will be making sure that everybody
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 4: knows when you, know check out our social media to
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 4: understand when you can the best way to chime. In
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 4: we've got you, know online, resources so you don't have
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 4: to write an original. Letter you can just go in
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: there and put your name in your address and we'll
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 4: take care of the hard part for. You but, again
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: just don't underestimate the power your.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: Voice, yeah, yeah so.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: True, Well, CHRIS i can't thank you enough for this chat,
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: today for all of your work you, know decades ago
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: to help put this into, place and now what you're
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: doing with tu tremendous, organization tremendous impact you have made
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: personally and. Organizationally so thank you for all, that and
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 3: thank you for.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 4: Today Thanks, mark it's been a.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: Pleasure and with that we will wrap this one. UP
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: i appreciate you joining, ME i appreciate you listening to
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: me And chris. TODAY i hope that you will leave
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 3: this conversation not only with the better understanding of how
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: we have these special protected, places but also what it's
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: going to take for us to keep them.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: AROUND i also will ask you to please.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: Join me in sending emails calling our elected officials taking
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: action to protect these last best. Places they, truly we
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: are one of the most rare resources we have, left
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: and if we don't stand up for, them certainly nobody else.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: Will so thanks for joining, me thanks for being a
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 3: part of this conversation in this, community and thank you
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: for Staying wired To hunt