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The Greatest Undercover Informant Of All Time Ray Khan And Lou Valozl Was There · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: I've created this podcast network Arrow dot net A r
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  Speaker 1: r oe dot net. It's not just one podcast, it's
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  Speaker 1: twenty different daily podcasts. And the reason why is because
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  Speaker 1: world a little selfish, right, Well, that's why I'm giving
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  Speaker 1: you twenty different podcasts to choose from Arrow dot net
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  Speaker 1: A r r oe dot net. And while you're at it,
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  Speaker 1: Enjoy that exploration. Good morning, Lou Harry. How are you
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  Speaker 1: doing well?
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  Speaker 2: I was just in Montana, man, I love it up.
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  Speaker 1: You were were what part of Montana were you in?
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  Speaker 2: Well? I was the speaker at the Montana and Narcotics
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  Speaker 2: Officers Association that was in Beute, but we went to
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  Speaker 2: Big Sky. I brought my wife and daughter went to
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  Speaker 2: Big Sky for a couple of days before that.
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  Speaker 1: How about that country up there? Because I grew up
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  Speaker 1: in Billings, but we used to escape up to Bozeman
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  Speaker 1: to you with my grandma. And the thing is is that,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, you get up there in that big sky,
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  Speaker 1: you don't ever want to leave. There's just something about
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  Speaker 1: that area that just stays with you at all times.
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  Speaker 2: It's heaven on earth.
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  Speaker 3: You know.
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  Speaker 2: I live in South Georgia and it's just you know,
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  Speaker 2: I'm little by the ocean, but it's flat and it's humid.
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  Speaker 2: Montana is paradise to me. I'd go there in a
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  Speaker 2: second if my wife would let me.
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  Speaker 1: And yet being down there in Georgia and I'm up
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  Speaker 1: here in Carolina, there's something about that Georgia clay though,
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  Speaker 1: because I mean, I believe that there's a lot of
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  Speaker 1: stories that are stuffed inside there, and it's going to
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  Speaker 1: take authors like yourself and me to get to get
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  Speaker 1: that stuff out. We're willing to go digging for stuff
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  Speaker 1: like that.
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  Speaker 2: That's the truth. Yep, I'm with you on that.
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  Speaker 1: I got to ask you a question. With all the
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  Speaker 1: people that you're sharing conversations with today, are they bringing
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  Speaker 1: up the same questions that you had to ask yourself
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  Speaker 1: in order to put this book even together? Because an
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  Speaker 1: author doesn't ever go into a project without questions inside
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  Speaker 1: their heart.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of them are you know, I just
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  Speaker 2: I don't think that a lot of people generally understand
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  Speaker 2: the whole concept of confidential informants and how they how
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  Speaker 2: they assist, how valuable they are to law enforcement. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I haven't really touched on that up to this point.
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  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because I think we've been tainted by Hollywood.
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  Speaker 1: You know, we all have this idea of what an
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  Speaker 1: informant should be. While it must be then because that's
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  Speaker 1: what that movie said, and we start comparing it to
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  Speaker 1: even the informants if we see him in a Marvel
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  Speaker 1: movie in things. And what I love about Ray Kon
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  Speaker 1: here is the fact that and what you've done in
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  Speaker 1: this is that you're giving us an identity that says,
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  Speaker 1: you know, maybe it's not like what they do out
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  Speaker 1: there in the movie making business. You need to look
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  Speaker 1: at this a little bit closer and understand the human
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  Speaker 1: side of what's going on here.
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  Speaker 2: For sure. You know, informants have different motivations, uh to
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  Speaker 2: be an informant, right, the biggest one is to stay
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  Speaker 2: out of prison. So you know, most of our informants
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  Speaker 2: are facing charges and they're they're trying to work those
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  Speaker 2: charges off. Some informants are doing it for financial reasons, right,
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  Speaker 2: they're they're they're paid by federal agencies UH to do
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  Speaker 2: their work. And in Race case, his motivation was just
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  Speaker 2: to stay in this country.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, that's it.
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  Speaker 2: And you know he certainly has still has not been
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  Speaker 2: rewarded for all of his work for that.
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  Speaker 1: But you know what people are going to say. They're
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  Speaker 1: gonna sit there and say, somebody set him up. And
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  Speaker 1: once he was set up, then you've got to go
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  Speaker 1: with the game, which is a game changer, and and
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  Speaker 1: and it's and that's what I don't want to spoil
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  Speaker 1: the book because I want people to do more than
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  Speaker 1: just look at the cover. I don't want them to
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  Speaker 1: read just what's going on in the back of the book.
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  Speaker 1: I want them to figure out that that this really is. Man,
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  Speaker 1: it's thought provoking, it makes you think, and you also
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  Speaker 1: see all that activation inside those paragraphs.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you know, undercover work. There's a lot of
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  Speaker 2: gray areas, all right, and then when you when you
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  Speaker 2: bring in confidential informants, those areas get even grayer. You know,
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  Speaker 2: ar Old's saying is you don't find you don't find
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  Speaker 2: an informant at your local church. Okay, they have to
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  Speaker 2: be in the game already, so there's different levels. Of course,
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  Speaker 2: you know, some of them will actually play both sides
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  Speaker 2: of the fence. But when when you work with an informant,
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  Speaker 2: they're all different. When you work with one for long
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  Speaker 2: enough and you really get to know them, you figure out,
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  Speaker 2: you know, whether you can trust them or not, and
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  Speaker 2: you know, you figure out really what kind of person
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  Speaker 2: they are. And you know, I worked with Ray for
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  Speaker 2: so many years. I had absolute one trust in him,
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  Speaker 2: and you know, our relationship definitely went beyond the average
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  Speaker 2: undercover age and confidential informant relationship.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I've always believe that when you've got an informant
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  Speaker 1: like that, this is more than just a family member.
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  Speaker 1: It's more like a second skins. You can look at
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  Speaker 1: each other and read each other's mind and get it perfect.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, your life is in their hands as an undercover.
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  Speaker 2: They're the ones bringing you into these these criminal networks,
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  Speaker 2: and your life literally hangs on the job that they do,
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  Speaker 2: what they say about you, and how they introduce you.
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  Speaker 2: So there has to be a high level of trust there.
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  Speaker 2: And like you said, it's almost like a relationship between
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  Speaker 2: a quarterback and a receiver, right, you kind of just
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  Speaker 2: know what moves they're going to make, and if you're
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  Speaker 2: going to be successful, you have to have that kind
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  Speaker 2: of relationship, and we did.
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  Speaker 1: Does it go beyond trust then? I mean because I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, we all have a friend that we trust
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  Speaker 1: or somebody that we you know, that we call real close.
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  Speaker 1: But I don't know if I would, would you know,
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  Speaker 1: just join just because it looks like it might be
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  Speaker 1: the atmosphere. I mean, it would have to be something extreme,
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  Speaker 1: eemly deep with it with a repercussion on the other side,
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  Speaker 1: be it positive or negative.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it absolutely went beyond trust. You know, I
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  Speaker 2: can tell you this, and I can say this with
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  Speaker 2: a hundred percent confidence. Uh, while we were out in
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  Speaker 2: the field and while we were working, you know, Racan
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  Speaker 2: would have jumped in front of a bullet for me
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  Speaker 2: before some of the people in my office would have.
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  Speaker 2: So there was absolute trust.
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  Speaker 1: How do you deal with that when it's it's almost
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  Speaker 1: like the friends you want to tell everybody about, but
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  Speaker 1: you can't. You couldn't do that. It was it was
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  Speaker 1: it was your world in your space. And but yeah,
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  Speaker 1: you always want to just talk about a friend like this.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you absolutely can't because you'd be putting
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  Speaker 2: their life in jeopardy if you did. Uh So, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: there's like everything in undercover there there's absolutely there's a
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  Speaker 2: level of secrecy, and you know most things never come
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  Speaker 2: out until the very end, until until it's safe to
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  Speaker 2: do so. Uh So, yeah, you know he's there. There
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  Speaker 2: was no heroes welcome for him. There still isn't to
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  Speaker 2: this day. Uh No real appreciation for the incredible things
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  Speaker 2: he's done, for the thousands of guns that are that
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  Speaker 2: are crime guns that are now off the streets, thousands
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  Speaker 2: of kiroos and dangerous drugs, and hundreds and hundreds of
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  Speaker 2: federal defendants who were really violent, bad people.
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  Speaker 1: Did you ever ask why and did he ever give
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  Speaker 1: you answers? Or was it the was it the giggle,
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  Speaker 1: the laugh, that look in his eye that was like
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  Speaker 1: going one day, one day, you'll get it, You'll get it.
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  Speaker 2: Listen. He he loved it as much as I loved
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  Speaker 2: being an undercover agent. And that feeling that I got
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  Speaker 2: when I would just buy a gun undercover and hold
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  Speaker 2: that gun in my hand and I would just look
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  Speaker 2: at it and say, this gun is never going to
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  Speaker 2: hurt anyone again. I'm taking I've taken this gun off
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  Speaker 2: the street. God only knows how many people it's hurt
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  Speaker 2: and how many hands it's been through, but it's never
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  Speaker 2: gonna hurt anyone again. You know. He he had that
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  Speaker 2: same feeling.
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  Speaker 4: Uh.
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  Speaker 2: He did it because he loved doing it. He had
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  Speaker 2: fulfilled his his you know, his requirements early on, but
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  Speaker 2: he kept doing it because he just loved doing it. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to be honest with you. When I
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  Speaker 1: was going through the book Ray Coon, The Betrayal of
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  Speaker 1: an Informant, what I felt is I just I felt
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  Speaker 1: like that I was watching or experiencing one of these
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  Speaker 1: games on a VR goggles or a video game, because
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  Speaker 1: you're sitting there reading all of this stuff that Ray
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  Speaker 1: is going through, and you're going, my god, this feels
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  Speaker 1: like a video game.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, we he was hard to control and
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  Speaker 2: you do have to control and informant, and we kept
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  Speaker 2: we would tell him NonStop not to put himself in
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  Speaker 2: these situations, you know, just where you know, there were
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  Speaker 2: times where he was out on the street where we
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  Speaker 2: were not, and he was bringing these guys to us,
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  Speaker 2: and he was he would beginning in cars with three
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  Speaker 2: or four gangsters and going to their their their places
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  Speaker 2: of residence and putting himself in places where we could
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  Speaker 2: not protect him. But he just kept doing it over
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  Speaker 2: and over again because he was doing it for the cost.
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  Speaker 2: And he really was a man with no fear.
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  Speaker 3: God.
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  Speaker 1: And I'll tell you where I found inspiration is the
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  Speaker 1: fact that his only job was to be simple, to
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  Speaker 1: create relationships, and you know, and and and it didn't
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  Speaker 1: have to necessarily be with friendly people in fact, And
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  Speaker 1: I was so inspired by that because I worked for
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  Speaker 1: a grocery store just for something to do, to just
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  Speaker 1: to be with people. Oh my god, the things that
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  Speaker 1: I am told that I should not know. And it's
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  Speaker 1: only because I I don't know. The people will talk
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  Speaker 1: if you just freaking listen to.
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  Speaker 2: Them, yes, And and that is really true. And the
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  Speaker 2: amazing thing about Ray is, you know, Ray couldn't tell
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  Speaker 2: you the first thing about a gun. He doesn't know
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  Speaker 2: what you know, He doesn't know where the bullet comes
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  Speaker 2: out of a gun. He knows nothing about drugs. Yet
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  Speaker 2: he was able to bring us believe in gun traffickers,
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  Speaker 2: you know, Mexican cartel members, outlaw biker gangs. Just unbelievable.
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  Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with louver Rosie coming
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  Speaker 1: up next the name of the book, Raycon The Betrayal
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  Speaker 1: of an Informant. Well, we are back with author and
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  Speaker 1: undercover agent Lou Rosie. But why did they say that
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  Speaker 1: he was a typical when it comes to being an informant,
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  Speaker 1: Because right away, and I'm going, why do they have
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  Speaker 1: to put labels on things? But when I saw that,
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  Speaker 1: it was like that kind of shifted the gears into
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  Speaker 1: having and I had to I had to go to
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  Speaker 1: chat GPT to look it up as what I had
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  Speaker 1: to do, and because I want to understand where he
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  Speaker 1: was going as well as growing.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think they used that term because he he
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  Speaker 2: just he was not immersed in the criminal community at all.
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  Speaker 2: You know, most most informants are are you know, they're
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  Speaker 2: going to be bikers, you know what I mean, streak
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  Speaker 2: gang guys. You know, that was not his background. He
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  Speaker 2: didn't know anything about that world. Yet he was able
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  Speaker 2: to just jump in and be so successful.
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  Speaker 1: And of course, you know readers when they first pick
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  Speaker 1: up the book, they're going to sit there and go
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  Speaker 1: diddy or did he not? And if that's what they
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  Speaker 1: want to hold to get deeper into the book, please
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  Speaker 1: let them do that, because I mean all of a sudden,
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  Speaker 1: you're going to get a greater picture if you can
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  Speaker 1: get that answer, Diddy or did he not? And my
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  Speaker 1: question that I kept asking my wife was would I
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  Speaker 1: do it to stay in the country? And we created
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  Speaker 1: a conversation of what wouldn't I do to make sure?
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  Speaker 1: And do you find yourself in the same situation, what
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  Speaker 1: would the average person do if it meant staying here
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  Speaker 1: and not going there? And is it happening even today
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  Speaker 1: with a lot of situations.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, it absolutely is. You know, usually you have some
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  Speaker 2: you have some sort of leverage over an informant, whether
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  Speaker 2: it's keeping them out of prison and keeping them in
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  Speaker 2: the country, you know. But his true motivation was his
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  Speaker 2: children were here and he wanted to stay in the
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  Speaker 2: country for his children.
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  Speaker 1: I get it. I get it. I if, like I said,
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  Speaker 1: if you could see the people that I'm sharing conversations with,
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  Speaker 1: that's exactly what you're what with the conversations you're getting
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  Speaker 1: into because you know they've got family here, they don't
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  Speaker 1: want to go back. And then but then I don't
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  Speaker 1: know about you, but then the experiences you had when
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  Speaker 1: they do go back, does that not I mean I
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  Speaker 1: always feel a huge silence in my heart because I'm going,
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  Speaker 1: what went wrong in your life that you had to
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  Speaker 1: bolt at here before somebody forced you to bolt?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And you know, everyone's story is, you know,
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  Speaker 2: obviously is different. Their motivations are different, you know.
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  Speaker 4: But but with Ray, he he not only had that
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  Speaker 4: motivation to stay in this country, but he just absolutely
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  Speaker 4: loved you know, his dad was a police officer in
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  Speaker 4: India and he had taken the test three times and
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  Speaker 4: didn't pass it and ask you so, you know, I
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  Speaker 4: feel like this was his way to serve as well,
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  Speaker 4: you know, in a law enforcement capacity, and he just
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  Speaker 4: he loved doing it and he definitely had a.
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  Speaker 2: Knack for it.
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  Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that IPS test
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  Speaker 1: because I'm a third degree black belt and I I
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  Speaker 1: of course, my mind was going, I want to take
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  Speaker 1: this test. I want to see what's going on and
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  Speaker 1: and but you you put so much concentration on it
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  Speaker 1: that you're going to That's what I love about your
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: writing is that you create activation. I don't know how
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  Speaker 1: many times I would say, Okay, hold on, sec I
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  Speaker 1: got to go. I gotta go look this up so
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: I have a better understanding what's going on here. I
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  Speaker 1: like that when an author gives me that chance.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that test is definitely not easy. And raise
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  Speaker 2: a smart guy. He was a chemist, a very smart guy.
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  Speaker 2: But you know, for whatever reason, maybe maybe his priorities
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  Speaker 2: or elsewhere, he just kept failing it, which I'm sure
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  Speaker 2: was also an embarrassment with his dad, who was high ranking.
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  Speaker 2: So so you know, I think that was always in
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  Speaker 2: his heart. You know, to work in law enforcement, and
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: you know, obviously over here in America, this was his
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  Speaker 2: only opportunity to do it, and he just man, he excelled,
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  Speaker 2: but he certainly was never rewarded for any of that work.
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  Speaker 1: My heart was broken though when that question did come
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  Speaker 1: up with was the atf asking too much from Ray?
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  Speaker 1: Because I always want to put on their shoes so
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  Speaker 1: I can walk a mile in their shoes. And it
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  Speaker 1: was one of those situations where it's like, okay, why
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  Speaker 1: he couldn't say anything, But at the same time he
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  Speaker 1: couldn't have helped but feel something in his heart that says,
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  Speaker 1: what I do today, what my decision today? Will it
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  Speaker 1: be for me or will it make them look greater?
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  Speaker 1: And did he face that war? Because there's a difference
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  Speaker 1: between serving your cause and serving them.
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  Speaker 2: Well, you know, let's just be honest. The government will
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  Speaker 2: always ring every drop of usefulness, you know, out of
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  Speaker 2: not only its employees, but it's it's you know, informants
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  Speaker 2: for whoever is helping. And you know, the government doesn't
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  Speaker 2: really have a conscious. It's just a big uh. It's
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: it's just a big entity that uh that that just
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  Speaker 2: wants to keep moving forward. And they love statistics, right,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: they love statistics because you can they take those statistics,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: they go to Congress and they get more funding. And
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  Speaker 2: Raycon was because of Raycon, our statistics were phenomenal. They
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: had never seen operations where at the conclusion of six
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  Speaker 2: six to twelve months, we had purchased four hundred and
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  Speaker 2: thirty crime guns. You know, these stats were amazing. So
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  Speaker 2: they'll just keep using you as long as they can.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, that's what they did with Raycon.
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  Speaker 1: You use something here that a lot of people don't
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  Speaker 1: know about and they need to research it because it's
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: a major part of this nation's history. The RICO program. Rico,
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  Speaker 1: Oh my god, you get busted or that name is
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: attached to you somehow, some way. There's a big investigation
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: going on when it comes to RICO.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, the Rico charges, the conspiracy charges. Basically, just
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: to sum it up real quickly, basically, you're responsible. It
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: makes you responsible for the actions of everyone in your organization.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: That's essential way. And you know that's basically that's what
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: they started using for the mob way back in the fifties,
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  Speaker 2: for the Italian mafia. But now it's now it's used
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  Speaker 2: just for any basically any criminal organization. And uh, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the ironic thing was that we were chasing these major
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  Speaker 2: criminal organizations because of Ray. He was the one getting
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  Speaker 2: us in. Uh, you know, cartel's gun trafficking organizations, drug
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  Speaker 2: trafficking organizations, and you know, with the with the goal
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  Speaker 2: of putting Rico charges on them. And then Ray himself
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  Speaker 2: gets indicted by this state agency here in Georgia for
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: rico charges tax or related unco charging. You know what
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: an irony and uh and then to make that irony
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: even greater, his lawyers uncover the corruption and the bribery
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: that was going on with with these state agents and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: they end up not only getting fired, but indicted themselves
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: because of raycon for Rico.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: You see what I mean, This is so Hollywood, but
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: you give us reality here and I swear to God,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: that's going to be the attraction, because people are going
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: to be sitting there in Shakana going, oh my god,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: this is so real. But let me ask you though
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: about your own personal undercover work. First of all, how
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: do you even trust the outside world? How do you
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: know that I'm not a spy trying to figure out
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: how You're Atlanta Hawks are going to be taking on
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: our Charlotte Hornets in the playoffs, and You're Atlanta Hawks
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: are always the dirty birds, and I got to figure
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: out how we're going to get by them. I'm a
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: spy for North Carolina. Would you know that?
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: You know? I'll just give you an analogy for that.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: I guess it's when I first got on the job.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I was on an LAPD task force. I was in
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Los Angeles and this gritty old LAPED detective. We were
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: driving through Rampart Division at night and he told me,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: he said, listen here, when a normal person drives through here,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: they don't see anything that I see. He said, you know,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: they just drive through and they you know, they look
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: at the houses and you know, people walking on the street.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: He goes, They're seeing something totally different. He goes, I'm
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: seeing all sorts of things happening that they're not seeing.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: And that's it's very true. And you know, undercover work
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: is just you know, another section of law enforcement. It's
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: another tool we have in our belts. But when you
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: start working undercover, you you realize that there's always so
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: much more going on than what than what meets the eye.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: And uh, you know, since I've retired, I try to
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: I've distanced myself from that because I would go nuts
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: and I've tried to just go back to being a
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: normal person for my own sanity.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Wow, where can people go to find out more about you, Lou,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: because I want them to dive into your story.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Well, for the book, they go to Amazon, you know,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: just typing rakeon. I have a website. It's just www
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: dot louvelos l o u v a l oze dot com.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: And you know my first book, Storefront Sting, which is
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: in the process of being purchased by a major I
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: mean that book right now is on there.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: Wow, and uh yeah, it just uh it's you know,
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: I've tried to just put the word out there on
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: what the public doesn't really doesn't really know about the
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: undercover world and the use of confidential informants just to
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: kind of explain it.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: Wow, you got to come back to this show anytime
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: in the future, dude. The door is always going to
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: be open for you.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Just let me know. Man, it's been an honor and
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: a pleasure. Thank you so much.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today? Okay, Lou, you got it.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you, sir.