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We Don't Predict, We Prepare with Theodore Hicks | Financial Planner Search · Financial Planner Search

• Chase: All right, welcome to the podcast. Today I get to sit down with Theodore Hicks, author of Evidence Based Investing. Ted, welcome to the show. Theodore Hicks: Thanks for having me, Chase. Looking forward to our chat. Chase: Been looking forward to it. Yes. So let's jump right in. Tell us about your practice and what you specialize in. Theodore Hicks: So my firm, Hickson Associates, is a boutique asset management firm. I use that word intentionally. Boutique generally refers to we're focusing on asset management. Yes, we do financial planning, but what makes us different is our asset management approach. So it's more apt to call us a boutique asset management firm than it is a financial advisory firm. Chase: Interesting and I want to know more about your practice in a minute here, but let's see. You started in nineteen ninety-nine, right? Theodore Hicks: Yes, sir. Chase: So that first decade of your career was probably a little bit interesting, wasn't it? Do you wanna talk about that a bit? Theodore Hicks: No, I wanna I wanna block it. I wanna suppress it. Chase: Ha ha. Theodore Hicks: so the first half, the first ten years of my career chase, I mean and I tell the story in my in my book, but I started in February of ninety nine. And so I had basically thirteen months of the great nineteen nineties bull run before the dot com crash. And somewhere in that dot-com crash, because remember the the dot-com crash was the the the the broad markets were negative in 2000, we were negative in 2001, and we were negative in 2002. And that was the first time since 1929, 30, and 31 where you had three years in a row of negative stock market returns. So somewhere in there, and I keep in mind I was with the nation's largest financial planning firm, somewhere in there. The leaders of the firm said, Well, don't worry, Ted, this is a once in a career crisis. It's good to get it over at the beginning of your career. And I thought, okay. Right. Now I was young and naive, which is a nice way of saying stupid, but I didn't know any better. And so I thought, well, this is if this is a once-in-a-career crisis, yeah, I'd rather get it over with now when I don't have a lot of clients that I'm serving, so the impact is minimal. Somewhere in two thousand two, I think it was June of two thousand two, I closed on a practice, so I bought another advisor out. He moved, I bought him out, and so now the practice is growing because of that acquisition, and we soldier on so late. Somewhere in 2007, my wife and I contracted to buy a bigger house. And we moved into that house about two weeks before our second daughter was born. And probably about two weeks before the market started the global financial crisis. Of course, I didn't know it at the time. It's just two tough weeks. But again, through the global financial crisis, the firm that I I was still with the same firm. The firm said something very eerily similar. They didn't say it technically exactly the same, but it was basically the same messages as a once-in-a-lifetime crisis. And I just remember thinking, how many of these once-in-a-lifetime crises am I going to have to go through? So, Chase, that that sent me on a very different path because I take my role of shepherding other people's wealth very seriously. And they're looking to me and my team. And I was already doing everything that the industry teaches. I was already doing everything that academia teaches, and it wasn't working. So that sent me on a journey to ultimately be where I'm at today, where we focus on asset management. That doesn't mean we get every decision correct. That is not what I mean by any stretch of imagination, but we have a very defined investment management process. And I'm very comfortable that should one of those two crises or a similar type of crisis return, and I'm sure it will, I'm prepared. I'm far better prepared today than I was back then. And I'm, you know, it wasn't fun going through those two crises, but I'm glad I have that experience now because I'm somewhat concerned that the next one is going to be even worse. Chase: So what does that what does that mean for your clients? with the way that you have come to structure your your process, what does that mean when clients work with you versus when they work with someone else? What's their experience? How's it different? Theodore Hicks: I would argue that to some extent is positioning is anti-anxiety. I obviously I can't promise to remove all anxiety from an individual. and the story that I tell at the very end of my book is that of a ship's captain. I'm convinced that there are very few, if any, ship captains. And I'm talking about, captains of very large boats that have to cross the Atlantic, across the Pacific. I I I suspect none of them like to go through really big storms at sea. and that whole thought process of being at a bit in a big storm at sea kind of freaks me out. And I've never been on a cruise ship to some extent for that reason. But if I was ever to go on a cruise ship and find myself in a storm like that, I would have a lot less anxiety if I had confidence that the ship's captain knew exactly what to do. That's the point. That doesn't mean you can avoid the waves, but you're going to minimize the impact and you're going to navigate through that crisis to the best of your ability as opposed to getting training on the job. that's not what I want when I'm on that cruise ship. Chase: I like that analogy. I think that draws a very clear picture. So you draw a sharp line between investor and sophisticated saber, and I think most of your clients are the latter, is that Theodore Hicks: So you draw a sharp line between investor and sophisticated saber. And I think most of your clients Chase: correct? Theodore Hicks: I would argue the vast majority of people are sophisticated savers. Absolutely. I do not think most, I don't think most people are investors. And the the reality, the way that I talk about this is most people, Chase, think that you're either a short-term day trader or you're a long-term investor. And I believe most people are neither. I think they're most, they're somewhere in the middle, right? to me, a an investor is somebody who's willing to give, you know. Some young individual named Bill Gates, you know, money when he's working out of a garage. You know, that's that's an investor. and you, you know, but if if you own Amazon stock today, in my opinion, you are not an investor in Amazon unless you gave cash to Bezos. If you gave cash to Jeff Bezos and you've held, then fine, you're an investor. But most people own Amazon stock because they believe they can sell it at a higher price. Many years ago, I was having dinner with somebody, and he, one of the things that the funny thing is, he was in leadership at that big financial planning firm. And he was revealing that one of his biggest investments was in his wine. So he was a wine collector, but he was really a wine trader. He would buy bottles of wine and he would sell them later once they've appreciated in price. There's that's no different than buying Amazon stock and then selling Amazon stock at a higher price. It's the same thing. It's just, the the thing that you're buying is different. But you can do the same thing with Pokemon cards. Chase: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rare toys. Theodore Hicks: Or toys, exactly. I have a Chase: So Theodore Hicks: my I took my son to a Charlotte FC Charlotte football club game a couple weeks ago. And so my goal our son is a goalkeeper. And one of the reasons we went to this game is because they were giving away bobbleheads, of the goalkeeper. And so I have the bobblehead over my shelf over there, but I kept the box just in case. Chase: So is that an investment or Theodore Hicks: it's mainly a memory. I think the chances are Christian Kalina, I think, is from Croatia. So I don't think Croatia is really gonna ever win the World Cup. so I don't know if that bobblehead will ever be worth anything. It's just a memory. It's a cool memory for me and my son, but still I kept the box. Just in case. Chase: I love that. So when people first come to work with you, so we just talked about the difference between an investor and a sophisticated saver. but when people first come to work with you, paint me a picture of that person. Like who are they? What have they built? What's going on in their life when they find you? Theodore Hicks: That's a great question, Chase. I I would argue that the people that typically come to us, they've already got some degree of wealth. Right. So imagine over the course of your 30 or 40 careers, you've built a nest egg of, say, $3 million. Okay. Well, a 20% decline in the broad stock market is very, very common. Well, a 20% decline on a $3 million portfolio is $600,000. That is a lot of money. That's what I usually refer to. That's an adult figure, right? And so what most people are looking for is a defensive strategy. And the challenge, one of the things that we talk a lot about is historically, people have managed risk by dialing down their stock exposure and dialing up their bond exposure. That's not a safe bet in today's environment. We are in an upwardly biased rising interest rate environment and bonds are going to act different. When we're in a higher inflationary environment, bonds are going to act different. So if you're still using fixed income or bonds as your portfolio stabilizer, you might be in for a rude awakening if you haven't already awoken to that. Because 2022 is a classic example. Where had both stocks and bonds, both very negative for the year. The only thing that was really positive that year is commodities and energy. And I'm not counting Bitcoin because I don't know what Bitcoin did that year, but my point is: most people were hurt in 2022 because even if they were diversified, even if they had bonds. That's my point. And so what folks that come to us are looking for is a strategy for knowing when we should take risk and when we should not take risk. Here's another analogy for you. I currently drive a Dodge Ram, but I used to drive a BMW 550. Now, if you don't know what a BMW 550 is, know that it's got a lot of horses under the hood. And that car is built for driving. And there was a particular stretch. That's there's a stretch of road from downtown Durham down to I-40. And there that entrance ramp or an exit ramp off of the Durham Freeway and the I-40 entrance ramp. It's very long, it's it's nice and curved, it's banked. it is built. man, I we love that entrance ramp. I would push my car 70, 80 miles an hour on that entrance ramp. but only in the right conditions, right? I'm not doing that in the rain. I'm not doing that if there's a police officer behind me. I'm obviously not doing that if there's a car in front of me. I'm only gonna do that in very certain situations, right? And so my point that we try to make to clients and prospective clients is I'm convinced, even if you don't drive like I do, and I don't drive like that regularly, and I don't certainly don't take that curve on my in my Dodge RAM that way. But my point is, I'm willing to bet that you alter your driving behavior based upon the driving conditions. Why wouldn't we do the same thing with an investment portfolio? If we're in a high-risk environment, maybe we shouldn't take a lot of risk. If we're in a lower risk environment, maybe now's the time to actually take that risk. Chase: And so when these people first find you, what is what specifically is keeping them up at night? Is it is it actually preoccupation Theodore Hicks: And so when these people first find you, what is what specifically is keeping them up at night? Is it is it actually Preoccupation with what's happening in the stock market right now, or is there something else going on that drives them to you and triggers this? You know, I want to have a conversation with Chase: with what's happening in the stock market right now, or is there something else going on in their lives that drives them to you and triggers this, I want to have a conversation with with Theodore? Theodore Hicks: Theodore. Some of it, a large part of it, is just the anxieties of the geopolitics and what might drive the market down next. I I'm not one to pound the table and I try to be very careful. I'm not trying to scare people into saying that the markets are about to go down or anything. I don't know when it's gonna happen. I just know that it's gonna To happen. And so, for whatever reason, what we have seen, what I've seen over my career, and I've been doing this almost 30 years now, which really makes me feel old. But what tends to happen is at this stage of my life, at this stage of your life, Chase, your anxiety about retirement is probably pretty low because it's so far into the future. But And then your excitement about retirement is probably pretty high. man, if I could only not have to go answer to the man, you know. But as you get closer and closer to retirement, those two levels invert. Your anxiety goes up and your excitement goes down. And it's just that I don't know if I have enough. If I tell the boss I'm retiring, he may not hire me back if I'm wrong. What if there's a big market? It's that rabbit hole of thoughts and anxieties that people go down. And that's where we have to come in to say, well, let's first of all, yeah, we do want to put a put a financial plan around this. Let's let's crunch the numbers. Do you really have enough money to retire? But that's only one part of the equation. The second part of the equation is what kind of a strategy are we going to implement if we do, or not if, but when, when we do have that next market downturn? Because it's going to happen. I just don't know when it's going to happen. Chase: So what's a typical situation that you you will often lead your clients through? Can you think of any specific stories, anything that stands out in your mind? Theodore Hicks: So, what's the typical situation that you you will often lead your clients through? Can you think of story, anything that stands out for clients? It's really the global financial crisis, is the easiest one because it's still relatively recent. And most of the people that work with us are in their late 50s, early 60s. that's when they first come to us. Now, obviously, we have some younger clients and we obviously have older clients, but most people reach out as they're getting closer and closer to retirement. And some of it, by the way, is people who have managed their wealth themselves, but they're realizing that managing wealth in retirement is different than managing wealth in the when you're in an accumulation stage. When you're in an accumulation stage, when you're still working, if you get something wrong, you you can recover. It's easier to recover because you have income coming in from the paycheck to fix an error. But when you retire, that's not necessarily, it's not as easy. And so just we just try to point back to the global financial crisis and say, well, what did you do? Do you want to go through that again? No. Okay. And then when people are working with another advisor, it's a matter of fact, right before we got on this recording session, I'm analyzing another statement from another advisor. Because the client is or the prospective client is concerned that there is no downside strategy. And when I'm looking at the portfolio and the holdings and how those holdings have acted, I agree. There is no downside strategy. It's just what we call HODL, H-O-D-L. It's hold on for dear life. And that can work, but it doesn't always work. And it certainly does not always work in the timeframe that the client has available to them. Chase: So what would you say is the biggest difference, big like what you just mentioned, sometimes we'd be looking at what another advisor has handed a prospective client. What is the biggest difference between the way you work and the way these other guys work? Theodore Hicks: I would say we're not afraid to be wrong. And what do I mean by Chase: What does that mean? Theodore Hicks: that is that if we put on a position because it meets our criteria, but then something changes, I'm not gonna hold on to that position because my pride is at stake. I'm gonna sell the position because I'd rather maintain our discipline of maintaining Maintaining as much principle as possible, right? post I put out on LinkedIn just I think it was last week, two sectors that are negative year to date are utilities and bonds. But most people view those sectors as safe, right? And so if you put on a position, something that is consumer discretionary, I think is also negative. All right. Well, if you put that on, if you buy a consumer discretionary position because you think the economy is expanding, this sector should do well. Well, what is the criteria that you use to determine if you're wrong? Right. And so I would say that's a part of it is we're going to maintain the buy side discipline as well as a sell side. But you've heard in the in this industry buy low and sell high. Right? Well, that only works if you sell high. Right. And that only works if you avoid the losses, because the losses can be very difficult to recover from. That's the big difference. Chase: So it sounds like the typical person who you work with is just someone who has accumulated or is still accumulating quite a bit and they're in a kind of an anxious state mind. And they want someone to check and make sure that they are on track and they will not run out of money in retirement. And they they come to you because it sounds like you have the experience to do so. Is that correct? Theodore Hicks: They they come to you it sounds like you the reality is that a buy and hold approach can work, but it won't always work. And the challenge is knowing when to change that particular strategy. And so when somebody is getting closer and closer to retirement, they're looking at their 401k or their IRAs or whatever, and that balance is growing. But what if? It's then those doubts start to enter into their mind, and we have to have a process to Well, the reality is we've started using the term guardrails and growth. I didn't put this in my book. If I write a second book, this will be in there. The concept is not growth and guardrails, it's guardrails and then growth. The first thing that we want to do is put a defensive barrier, if you will. Now, when I say that, some people who are astute think I'm talking about annuities. I'm not talking about any product. I'm just talking about actually having a sell-side discipline. How do we get out of something, whether it's worked really, really well or it's not working at all? What is our decision matrix to protect the capital that the client is coming to the table with? But then also we don't want to grow it as well. The story that I use is, you know, over my shoulder is the signing of a the app at signing at the appomatics. And Ulysses S. Grant was arguably considered one of the world's b best generals, but he wasn't always on offense. And there was a period where I think it was the Battle of Shiloh, where he was penned in. I think there was a river behind him, and Robert E. Lee was across the the way, so to speak. But you're not gonna attack. We're gonna wait for General Sheridan to come around. When General Sheridan comes out around and he reinforces General Grant, I Now we're gonna go get them. Right. And so it's you got to have a defensive strategy when you're outnumbered in that situation. Let's fortify and make sure that we can maintain our forces. We're not gonna attack, we're gonna defend. But as soon as we have the numbers, now we're on attack. That's my point. Most people in this business don't have that. That's just it's hold on. It's let me diversify your portfolio, give you a little bit of this and a little bit of that, and we're gonna hope that something works out. I just don't agree with that approach. Chase: Theodore. would you consider yourself a a history buff by any chance? Theodore Hicks: Yes. You could tell by the books behind me. Yes. And well, how do you say that influences the way you approach your practice and when you deal Chase: How do you think yes? And well, how would you say that influences the way you approach your practice and the way you deal with clients? Theodore Hicks: with clients? it's a bit of a cliche that if you don't know your history, you'll you're doomed to repeat it. and if you're if you know your Bible that is webbed all throughout scripture as well, make sure you teach your children. Make sure you teach your children, right? Chase: Mm-hmm. Theodore Hicks: The the reality is that bad things happen. And if you want to quote Forrest Gump, you there's scenes in Forrest Gump where he's, you know, I won't say the word on your your show, but you know, bad stuff happens, right? It's gonna happen. I don't necessarily know when. I can see some warning signs, and I see some of those warning signs now, but that doesn't necessarily mean that bad things are gonna happen now, but I better be prepared. And so again, I take my role seriously because when I'm sitting across from somebody, you know, and I'm in charge of managing their portfolio, I gotta answer to that. Right. And so I know bad stuff is gonna happen. I have to be prepared for whatever scenario happens. Again, it doesn't mean we get every decision right. It doesn't mean we're perfect, we're far from it. But we have a defined process. And we're very comfortable with how we make decisions as well as how we review the rules that make because every once in a while you have to change the rules. So that's how it shapes me. Who is someone who you would not work with? Who would be someone who come to PDOR and say, I want to work with you and say no? Chase: imagine that that that ex that very defined process and those those guardrails really give your clients a lot of a lot of comfort as well. Who is someone who you would not work with? Who would be someone who'd come to Theodore and say, I want to work with you and you would say no. Theodore Hicks: I like to joke. This is not really a joke, but I generally deliver it as a bit of a humor. If you have two digits before your first of two commas and you want to tell me what to do, then I might listen. Right? Otherwise, I'll quote my mom. My mom had a cross stitch in her kitchen. It said, Tonight's menu is take it or leave it. Right. So I mean, I I'm not trying to say that I'm the smartest guy. I I know everything. I'm not trying to say that. But if you think you know more than me, we're probably not a good fit. Chase: So where do your clients typically come from? How do they find you? Theodore Hicks: Some of it is word of mouth. Some of it is I've written for Investopedia and the CMT Association. I'm tend to be on a lot of bot podcasts. I've got my book out that people are finding. it's various what my YouTube channel, I mean, there's lots of different ways that people can find us. a lot of it is, you know, a lot of our clients are in the Raleigh Durham, North Carolina area, but we have clients all across the country too. So it's it's a bit mixed. Chase: Wow. So when it comes to your practice, where do you see, what's your vision? Where do you see it going in the next one to three years? What are the goals you're working on? Theodore Hicks: I would argue the goals that we're working on is just to you know continue to grow the practice because I have a really good team. I've got it's me plus three very smart individuals and you know, they have a tendency to want to raise every year. So I want to keep growing the firm so that I can keep giving them a raise so that I can keep them on my team. Chase: Yes. Theodore Hicks: and you know, the best way to do that is by by growing. Chase: Yeah, having a great team is crucial. Is there anything standing in your way? Any current challenges that you're facing? Theodore Hicks: And so that that's part of it. Mm-hmm. Is there anything standing in your way, any challenges that you're facing? I would argue, Chase, it's a great question. That the one of the biggest things that is I find I still find frustrating is that financial advisors are a dime a dozen. There's you may throw a rock, you can hit a financial advisor. Not that I think you should throw rocks, but you know, they're everywhere. But there's a very big difference between what some of them do. And I talk briefly about this in my book as well. The reality is, one of the benefits of you guys doing the show that you're doing is to try to help people to try to discern the difference between what this shop is doing and what that shop is doing. we're not all the same. And this goes back to one of your first questions that you asked me. We are a boutique asset management firm. Yes, we do financial planning, but we're not going to try to compete on our financial planning knowledge. I've felt that way for many, many years, but now we've got, you know, our good friends Chat and Claude. They're pretty good too. You know, they've got their CFP designation, so to speak. So that's, you know, financial advice, comprehensive advice to me is not a differentiator. Our asset management approach. That's what resonates with the people that hire us. But no, again, we're not a we're not a right fit for everybody. Chase: This topic of AI keeps coming up in just about every episode now. What are do you have any pr predictions for how it's going to affect us and financial planning in the future? Theodore Hicks: No. That's one thing that Chase: Yeah. Theodore Hicks: I learned a long time ago is actually one of the books behind me, one of my favorite books for this business, is a book written by Greg Morris. A wicked smart guy, used to be a fighter pilot, and he says very clearly that he used to be on television shows and market shows all the time, but they he stopped getting invitations because he never gave a prediction. He would never predict. And I was like, you know what, that makes sense. And the cliche that we say in our bit in my firm is we don't predict, we prepare. So I have no idea what AI is going to do. I'm hoping, I can tell you what I hope it does. I hope it makes my job easier. We've chatting Chase: Yeah, yeah. Theodore Hicks: earlier today about how we're using our our CRM and there's a a little bit of AI component in there. And we named our AI Wilma. It's not Right now Wilma is still very much in training. Right? She's not very good. So I'm hoping Wilma gets a lot better and makes our job a lot easier. But beyond that, I got no idea. Do you have any predictions? Chase: Just I hope the same thing as you, Theodore. I just hope it makes my job easier. And it does, it does. Some days. Some days it just absolutely frustrates the heck out of me. But yeah. we're all just standing by. Theodore Hicks: Yeah. Yeah. And there's one of the questions that you're probably hearing more and more about is, the the the client or the prospect who comes in with an AI generated financial plan. And are you threatened Chase: Thank you. Theodore Hicks: by that? And I'm not threatened by that at all. Right. I think it's fantastic that you're taking that much ownership in the process. So far that has not happened to us, but I know people that it has happened to them. That's not a threat. That's fantastic. That just means you're you're listening to what I'm saying. And and one of my favorite verses from scripture is Acts 17:11, which is the believers in Berea were more noble than the Thessalonicans, for they searched scripture daily to see if what Paul said was true. And so Paul was out there preaching a very different message than what these folks were listening to. And so what they did is they went back to the source, the original prophecies and the original Torah. And said, well, does it line up with what Paul said? And so that's something I think everybody should be doing. I hope you like me and listen to me and value what I'm saying, but that doesn't mean you should take everything I say as the gospel truth. Maybe question it. And if you're putting it what we say into AI, that just means you're doing your job as a consumer and you're questioning the wisdom that you're getting. And to to determine, is it really wisdom or is it just, you know. So I I that's how I look at AI. Chase: Yeah, no, on our side, I'm a I'm a copywriter. I help people with their brand story and messaging. And sometimes a client will send us will send me a something they generated in Chat GPT and ask me to to clean it up. And I like those people. I like those clients. Sometimes someone will say, I generated this in Chat GPT, what do I need you for? And I said, You don't. I don't want to work with you. I think you're probably Theodore Hicks: Right, exactly. Chase: lightly the the same way. you're a key Theodore Hicks: My one of my when I was in college, I went to NC State University and I ended up having three of four finance concentrated classes with the same professor. And so I got to know him. And in the I went to summer school because I co-oped, but the in between the classes, one of my classmates asked, because this Bill Bill Sloan was his name. Bill was a CFP practitioner. I think he still practices. And he somebody asked him, Well, are you ever threatened? Keep in mind, I'm gonna date myself. this was in 1998, probably. and somebody said, 'Well, Bill, are you ever threatened when somebody brings in Money Magazine and asks, What do you think of Money Magazine article?' And I told you I was gonna date myself. And he says, 'Well, if you want 395 worth of advice, do exactly what it says. Right? That's Chase: Ha ha. Theodore Hicks: the way I look at it too.' If you want to You get what you pay for to some extent. Chase: So you're also a a kingdom advisor, I believe, is that correct? How does that shape who you work best Theodore Hicks: Currently, yes. Chase: with? Theodore Hicks: I don't know that it does, honestly. You know, I would love to work with people that share my interest and values, but that doesn't always happen. We have a lot of clients who are atheists, we have a lot of clients who are agnostic, we certainly have clients who are Christian. that's actually not what attracts people to us. It would I would love it if it did, but it it it hasn't. So again it would be great, but Chase: So walk me through the walk me through the actual process. When someone becomes a client, let's say I say, Hey Theodore, I want to be your client today. What does onboarding look like? What happens in the first four to eight weeks? And what does it look like to work with you over the course of a calendar year? Theodore Hicks: So the the first step is what we do is we'll do a discovery call and I'll tell people on that call. It's designed to be 10 to 15 minutes. And I'm quite honestly, I'm screening and I'll tell people that. I'm really trying to determine if I think we should continue to talk. And honestly, I think you're doing the same thing, and I think that's perfectly fine. If we both come to a conclusion where this makes sense, let's keep the dialogue going, what we do is we schedule the next meeting, an intro meeting. Sometimes that's in the office, sometimes it's over Microsoft Teams. It just depends on where the client is located, et cetera. And we'll go into a little bit more detail about our approach, what makes us unique, et cetera. after that, we will frequently, this is what I'm doing on Friday, we'll do a strategy call. And again, part of what I'm doing, Chase, is I'm trying to walk clients down the process very in a non-threatening way. So I don't charge anything for a portfolio review because it doesn't take me. I've been doing this long enough. I know a lot of ticker symbols off the it's my favorite Jeopardy category, by the way. I know all a lot of this stuff and I know how interrelated it is. It doesn't take me that long to do that, and it just allows somebody to get to know me and my team a little bit better. but Once they've made a decision that they want to hire us, either for comprehensive advice or for portfolio management, which includes the advice, onboarding is just simple. It's paperwork, it's sharing documents, just like anybody in this industry would. and I would say typically that onboarding process takes anywhere between six to six to twelve weeks, depending upon How frequently the client is available to meet. We tend to meet, we'll meet week one, skip week two, meet week three, skip week four, just so you have time to do some homework, we have time to do homework. That's typically how that works. And that's what we call phase one of the relationship. Phase two is after that first year, where typically speaking, not always, but typically speaking, we are meeting with the client twice a year. We have Two intentional phone calls a year with the clients, just very common in the in the industry. so very common. Chase: So for someone listening who wants to get a hold of your copy of a copy of your book, where would they find it and what outcome could they expect Theodore Hicks: What outcome can they explain? Chase: after they read it for themselves? Theodore Hicks: surprise, my book, it's very short, right? And it's kind of weird formatted. It's eight by eight and a half by eight and a half. And I somewhat intentionally did that because it has a lot of charts and graphs in it. the the number one feedback, but to answer your question, go to Amazon, evidence-based investing. It's on Amazon. You can get a Kindle version. You can get an audible version too, although I don't think that's the best way to consume my book, but hey, you know what? I'd love it if you did it anyway. most of the feedback that I've gotten on my book is I can't believe I actually enjoyed reading that. if you're a financial geek, I think you'll like the book. If you are a financial neophyte, I think you'll like my book. when my dad, when I lived with my dad for high school, I used to I had to write term papers for one of my classes, and my dad was a He was a good writer and he just I don't like saying beat it into me because my dad didn't beat me, but he he tried to instill in me the discipline of writing to a low comma denominator. I'm not talking down to the reader, but I'm trying to talk in a way that the average American can understand it. That's why it's got as many charts and graphs and things of that nature in it. So that's quite it's quite fulfilling that when I hear people say that I actually enjoyed reading your book. So it is on Amazon. if somebody that's watching or listening to this is interested but not yet committed, they can go to theodorehicks.com and you can actually get the introduction in the first chapter free. And then if I draw, if I've done that that correctly, then that'll draw you in and you can go get the full book on Amazon or Kindle or wherever you buy good books. Chase: Excellent. We will also leave a link directly to that book in the description of this podcast as well. So Theodore Hicks: Thank you. Chase: for someone listening who wants to get in touch with you, what should they do next? Where should they go? What should they do? Theodore Hicks: So my the firm's website is hicks-associates.com. and there's a button right there that's stopped at the top on the right left hand side of the page says begin here. And that'll take you to a spot where you can just drop a a quick form, says, Hey, my name is Chase, my email is this. Can you give me a call? And that's it. And again, we just set up that discovery call and have a very low key, non-threatening conversation and see if we're a good fit for one another. Chase: Perfect. Excellent. Mr. Hicks, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. It's been very enjoyable. Theodore Hicks: I enjoyed it, Chase. Thanks for having me.