Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode 3: Joel & Sina with Dr. Peter Osborne (Glutens, Autoimmune Disease & Questioning the Rise of Agriculture)

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Episode 3: Joel & Sina with Dr. Peter Osborne (Glutens, Autoimmune Disease & Questioning the Rise of Agriculture) · Beyond Labels Premium

0:00
SPEAKER_03: Hi, everybody.
0:01
SPEAKER_03: Today Joel and I interviewed Dr.
0:03
SPEAKER_03: Peter Osborne.
0:05
SPEAKER_03: He is the leading expert in glutens and grains in the whole world.
0:09
SPEAKER_03: Now, before Dr.
0:11
SPEAKER_03: Osborne joined us, Joel and I had our own conversation about grains.
0:15
SPEAKER_03: I asked Joel this question: how did our society get to a place where grains became a staple?
0:21
SPEAKER_03: I mean, even common table salt can contain corn derivatives.
0:25
SPEAKER_03: And we know the grains are the number one food trigger for autoimmune diseases.
0:31
SPEAKER_03: So why?
0:32
SPEAKER_03: Why have we chosen grains as a staple in our diet?
0:35
SPEAKER_03: In other words, why do we choose to shift from hunting and gathering and shepherding to agriculture?
0:41
SPEAKER_03: Now I left our conversation in the podcast because it directly relates to questions that Joel later on asked Dr.
0:48
SPEAKER_03: Osborne.
0:49
SPEAKER_03: If you want to skip past this conversation between Joel and I and jump right to the interview with Dr.
0:53
SPEAKER_03: Osborne, fast forward about 10 minutes.
0:56
SPEAKER_03: And also I want to let you know that at one point in our conversation with Dr.
0:59
SPEAKER_03: Osborne, his connection was lost.
1:02
SPEAKER_03: So Joel and I just continued on the conversation and then we brought Dr.
1:06
SPEAKER_03: Osborne back in once he regained his connection.
1:09
SPEAKER_03: Meanwhile, I hope you enjoyed the show.
1:11
SPEAKER_03: I know Joel and I have learned a lot.
1:14
SPEAKER_03: And if you want to leave us comments, either post them in the comment section for the video version of this podcast or send us emails.
1:22
SPEAKER_03: We'd love to hear from you.
1:24
SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Beyond Labels.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: And here's your hosts, everyone's favorite farmer Joel Salatin and Dr.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Cena McCullough.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: The information provided is for educational purposes only.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your diet, medications, or lifestyle.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: So the question is, uh, and it wouldn't be that hard to actually do.
1:50
SPEAKER_02: The question is, from a labor standpoint, you brought up labor.
1:55
SPEAKER_02: Is it less labor?
1:56
SPEAKER_02: Imagine walking behind an ox with a stick to plow the ground uh to make an acre of wheat.
2:04
SPEAKER_02: That would take way more labor per uh whatever per measure of nutrition than herding a flock of sheep across that acre.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: Where the sheep self-harvesting, self-growing, um, you know, um exnutrition compared to exnutrition, you'd think would be it would be way more efficient even in a in a in a shepherding nomadic nomadic situation.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm not talking about hunter-gatherer, I'm talking about actual, you know, uh herding uh skill.
2:37
SPEAKER_02: You would think that the that that the nutrition to nutrition would be um, so is it just that grains they they tasted good?
2:49
SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, I mean bread, I mean, uh you know, what what I've got I like bread, but bread doesn't like me.
2:58
SPEAKER_03: Oh, really?
3:00
SPEAKER_03: How do you know?
3:02
SPEAKER_02: Well, I just I just know that it makes me feel stuffy and full and you know, um do you get bloated?
3:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I'm not gonna say I'm gonna get bloated, but but yeah, you got this kind of this kind of full feeling, um uncomfortable full as opposed to comfortable full.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: And uh and so and and and I know that it's it it stays with me too.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it it yeah.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: I'm uh I always I'd make a great brood cow, you know.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: I just I just hold I just hold my weight really well, you know, and and I'm an I'm what's called an easy keeper.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: I I tell farmers, you know, uh what you want is an easy keeper.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: You want a cow that that can eat some ragweed and some and some uh um you know uh blackberry vines and stay nice and fat.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: So anyway, uh so I mean is is it as simple as we we could do it and we liked it and so we did it?
4:10
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I I don't know, it's just it's just interesting.
4:14
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, your your question is fascinating because from uh from you know from a human labor standpoint, it would seem to me that growing nutrition from a from a herding animal is less labor than growing nutrition when you when it requires tearing up the sod and planting an annual and harvesting it and beating it out and all that.
4:45
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, one one beauty is that you can you can store grain, you know.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but you can make you you can you can dry you can dry beef, you can dry lamb and make jerky, and it can store indefinitely as well.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: I mean the the Native Americans made pimlican.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: Pimlican would, you know, you could carry that with you for months.
5:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: And live on it.
5:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:10
SPEAKER_03: And I think it would partly depend on where they lived, right?
5:13
SPEAKER_03: Like in some of these, in some of these geographical locations, like we're saying, it there was a more year-round supply of food, you know, um, versus, you know, when it got colder in the winter in some areas and you know, maybe the plants didn't grow as well, for instance, um, or areas that were by a river where you could fish, you know.
5:35
SPEAKER_03: So that's why it doesn't quite make sense to me that they would go towards grain, you know, like you said, from a labor perspective, it doesn't make sense unless they're in one of these other climates where they don't have as much access to food year-round.
5:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: But what we Yeah, well, the other the other thing is when you're herding animals, um, you deal with the with the cyclical grass growth.
5:58
SPEAKER_02: So if you start having to make hay, you start having to make hay with a scythe, uh, a scythe and put it in a structure so it doesn't um doesn't deteriorate.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, that's probably pound for pound cubic foot per cubic foot.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: Hay is a tenth the nutrition per cubic foot as grain is.
6:19
SPEAKER_02: So if you have to store, if you have to store feedstocks, grain is what you want to store, not hay.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: You know, so so maybe that's a little bit of the you know the balancing out too, because very few places on the planet um is there is there a uh a non-cyclical year-round supply of forage.
6:37
SPEAKER_03: So they couldn't, for instance, just migrate to a area that would have the forage during that time of the year.
6:46
SPEAKER_02: They would well, I mean, uh that they could, they could if nobody, if nobody was there.
6:51
SPEAKER_03: So it might be a population, there might be a population component.
6:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, once once once you become more stationary, yeah.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: Once you have to become more stationary due to city-states, tribalism, and and kind of you know, defined um as as as as you had cities and people began to uh become stationary, then just being able to pick up and move uh became much more difficult because because if you moved, you moved into somebody else's territory.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: And so then you had to figure out then you had to figure out how to deal with these seasonal seasonal forage cycles in situ.
7:32
SPEAKER_03: But were they stationary?
7:34
SPEAKER_03: Which one came first?
7:35
SPEAKER_03: State being choosing to be stationary or choosing the agriculture which forced them to be stationary?
7:43
SPEAKER_02: Uh my understanding is uh that um that that choosing cities made them become stationary.
7:54
SPEAKER_02: They didn't become stationary because of agriculture, they became stationary uh as they built cities.
8:00
SPEAKER_03: And the incentive was what?
8:03
SPEAKER_02: Oh, uh safety.
8:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you get you get a bunch of people together and you can build fortifications and you can build um you know uh water, water development, water security, you know, uh a pond, a pool, a cistern.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: Uh so now we have water, we we can we can uh we can have uh big clay pots to store grain in.
8:25
SPEAKER_02: Uh we've got enough people with enough armaments to keep the, you know, to keep the bad guys away.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, uh structure, uh, you know, civilizational structure.
8:37
SPEAKER_03: And that and that harkens back to what we see now, like, you know, even though this is a long time since antiquity, obviously, what that's what we operate primarily out of, right?
8:47
SPEAKER_03: Is that fear base, that desire for safety.
8:50
SPEAKER_03: And the government plays on that.
8:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
8:53
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
8:54
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
8:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, dear Dr.
8:55
SPEAKER_02: Fauci.
8:58
unknown: Yeah, yeah.
9:00
SPEAKER_02: I'm reading this, uh, reading this book about um uh the the development of agriculture.
9:07
SPEAKER_02: And um the the basic uh one of the basic theses in the book is that grain that that uh as as these cities and as as uh people started you know getting together in in uh in urban, you know, more more urban settings, the stationary settings, um that there was uh an incentive on the part of the government, on the part of the structure to grow grain because grain was measurable and it was stable.
9:41
SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, you you can't you can't put a sheep in a in a box and go back next year and find the sheep.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: But you can put you can put yeah, you can put uh you know, three bushels of wheat, put three bushels of wheat in a in a box, uh if if rats can't get in it, you know, a clay box, um, and and next year they'll it'll be there.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: And so um, so due to its measurability and stability, these societies encouraged grain production because it could be taxed.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: It was it was it became a a medium of taxing.
10:21
SPEAKER_02: This is before you know coinage uh was developed, and and so it could be taxed.
10:27
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, that that's a you can actually measure it as a as a place of wealth, as a standard of wealth.
10:36
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
10:36
SPEAKER_03: Okay, and now he's coming on.
10:38
SPEAKER_03: So we can always pick up with that too, that conversation when you have time.
10:43
SPEAKER_03: That's fascinating.
10:44
SPEAKER_02: I'd be glad to have to hear Peter's uh take on that as well.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's so let's do that.
10:49
SPEAKER_02: Because at some point, at some point, you have to um if you're if you're gonna take Peter's position, you have to be ready to just I don't want to say impugn, but but question the entire grain the entire grain mentality.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: And and you know that goes back through a lot of history.
11:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
11:14
SPEAKER_03: So that'll be yeah, that's fast we let's talk about that.
11:17
SPEAKER_03: All right, thanks for joining us today.
11:19
SPEAKER_03: Today we have a very special guest.
11:22
SPEAKER_03: His name is Dr.
11:23
SPEAKER_03: Peter Osborne.
11:25
SPEAKER_03: He is the world's leading expert on glutens, and in a minute we'll talk about why that is plural glutens.
11:33
SPEAKER_03: He's also one of the most highly sought-after alternative medicine doctors in the world.
11:39
SPEAKER_03: He is the clinical director of Origins Healthcare in Sugarland, Texas, where he helps people with chronic degenerative and autoimmune diseases.
11:48
SPEAKER_03: He is a doctor of chiropractic, doctor of pastoral science, and a board-certified clinical nutritionist, as well as the best-selling author of the book No Brain, No Pain.
12:00
unknown: Dr.
12:00
SPEAKER_03: Osborne is also the founder of the Gluten Free Society.
12:04
SPEAKER_03: He has served as the executive director and the vice president for the American Clinical Board of Nutrition.
12:11
SPEAKER_03: And he's on the advisory board for the Functional Medicine University.
12:14
SPEAKER_03: He's also been featured on so many programs like Fox News, CBS, PBS, Forbes, and many other online summits and shows.
12:24
SPEAKER_03: And he is the creator of a new glutenology masterclass.
12:29
SPEAKER_03: And we'll get into that in just a minute.
12:31
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Dr.
12:32
SPEAKER_03: Osborne, for joining us on the podcast today.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's a pleasure to be here.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
12:39
SPEAKER_03: Yay, so I'm gonna pass it off to my co-host Joel, who has some very interesting questions about grains and agriculture.
12:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so uh Dr.
12:49
SPEAKER_02: Osborne, it's it's great, great to see you again.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: Uh just wonderful.
12:53
SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm partway through a fascinating book about uh about agriculture in antiquity and kind of how how the whole um the whole grain, you know, grain well, as you grain has been the holy grail in agriculture for a long, long, long, long time.
13:11
SPEAKER_02: And um and the the thesis, there are several threads in this.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: One is that even from antiquity, societies and especially governments encouraged grain production because it was a it was uh it was a stable, storable, measurable item that could be taxed.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: You could actually measure how many bushels of wheat you got from an acre of land.
13:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, the the the nomadic, even as people began herding animals, um you couldn't measure how much grass an acre grew, you know, you couldn't measure that sort of thing.
13:49
SPEAKER_02: And so it's this idea, this was really fascinating to me that that even from antiquity there has been this push toward uh toward grain production.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: And so my question to you is um and and we still suffer that.
14:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I mean the US it doesn't subsidize chickens or cows, it subsidized it's it, you know, it it it uh subsidizes and incentivizes you know wheat and corn and and and things.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: And and so my uh when you when you whatever question the the even the the the core validity of grain-based agriculture, you are striking at the heart not only of of what is but what has been for a long time.
14:38
SPEAKER_02: And so my question to you is how how did grain become this holy grail?
14:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh even even before modern chemicals and tillage and and all that that made grain production so cheap and easy, um how or why did it become a holy grail for you know so long ago?
15:02
SPEAKER_01: Well that's a great question, and I've pondered it you know a number of times, you know, why why grain?
15:08
SPEAKER_01: And and what we what we come back to is that grain is an easy to grow source of calories that can sustain the the nutrition of a society without starvation, right?
15:26
SPEAKER_01: So you have you have agriculture, which wasn't always around, right?
15:31
SPEAKER_01: If we go back to the nomadic hunter-gatherer types or styles of of people, most of the resources, most of the physical resources, most of the um the tribal resources were were what they were devoted to finding food.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: So when agriculture you know sets its stage and sets up in history, we we now have the ability to transfer much of that energy into thought beyond hunting and gathering.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: And so now we have this double-edged sword, which is we have this food that we can grow that can feed us and sustain us and prevent starvation, but it also can contribute to chronic degenerative illness, which shows up later in life, not necessarily earlier in life, but we can free up our resources to be able to think, to be able to develop technology, to better be able to improve the quality of life in many other ways.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: And so this is how I this is how I believe it originally evolved.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: It's it's it was a trade-off, right?
16:30
SPEAKER_01: You trade off the potential for inflammatory diseases of modern culture for not having to hunt and gather and not having to expend all of the resources just trying to find food and prevent starvation.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: So so um yeah, I that that that makes sense.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: I guess I'd like to push just a little harder on the nomadic, the the ancient um uh the ancient skill, the man, the mastery of herd of herdsmanship, shepherding, herding, herding uh cattle, herding, uh herding animals.
17:08
SPEAKER_02: Um I'm saying herding H-E-R-D, hurting, not hurting animals, but herding animals.
17:15
SPEAKER_02: That that skill, that skill of herding animals, um was was that was that pre-grain, post-grain, or did it did it develop at the same time?
17:30
SPEAKER_02: Uh that's my first question.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: And then the follow-up question is it as a master herder myself now, you know, using using um the the modern technology of electric fencing for control and water pipe for water delivery and portable shelters, you know, all the the wonderful technology we have now to be able to move animals around.
17:54
SPEAKER_02: Um uh I can't I I've done analysis on, you know, the the pounds of nutrition per acre from, for example, um uh a beef animal on an acre of well-managed grass versus turning that acre into wheat and the actual nutrition is higher on the animal than it is on the wheat.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: And and is is that simply because we can now even control them so much better than than the nomadic herding people?
18:29
SPEAKER_02: Talk to me about that that competition between the the learned mastery of herding versus the learned mastery of of tillage.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: So I I I can't speak intelligently about which came about first.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Did herding come about first versus did commercialized mass agriculture come about?
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, not not with a great degree of academia.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: So I would simply say this with grain growth, you can store it for long periods of time, as you've already mentioned.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: There's an indefinite storage period provided that the grain is not contaminated or infested by some type of you know microorganism like mold fungus or other types of rodents or bugs.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: You can't do that with meat.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't until we actually developed cooling technologies.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: And so, although you could herd meat and you could potentially control a herd, so you could kill what you needed when you needed it, it you couldn't kill it and then ship it over long distances to other people or trade it.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: And so there was definitely an advantage for the trade, the grade, the grain trade in terms of the the technology that was available.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, because again, if you're not in a northern climate like here, I'm down here in Texas, and we you know, even in our winter months, I mean, a cold day is 50 degrees.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, whereas you look at, you know, like compared to where you're at, I mean, you guys get you get nice summers, but I mean you know, the temperatures are much colder.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: So there potentially there was possibility for trading of meat where the climate was much colder, but universally not so much.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: You couldn't put, you know, you couldn't put meat on a ship and ship it and preserve it, although there are present preservation techniques like smoking and like drying, but at the end of the day, the nutritional value of that and the and the palatability of that is far less uh appealing to most people than the palatability of you know the especially the the major gluten-containing grains that you know.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, if you if you read the um the archaeological record of, for example, the the Mandan, the Mandan tribes along the you know the Illinois that Lewis and Clark encountered on there as they went out west, um, you know, it was primarily a uh I mean they were along the river, so they could, you know, they could uh uh grow, they they grew corn and things along the river maze, uh, but primarily they hunted and they and they um and they actually um uh created they they they the whole town square became drying racks of uh drying racks of pieces of of bison, you know.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: And and of course here in Virginia where we are, Pimlican, Pembin was a real staple for for traveling, uh traveling Native Americans.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: And so um so um what you what I'm hearing you say is that even those storage techniques were not as were not as um uh whatever, as as secure, for general as secure as as dry grains or parched, you know, parched grains.
21:48
SPEAKER_02: Um and and nobody nobody was putting that in the belly of a ship and transporting it around the Mediterranean Sea, uh what like they did, like they did grain.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: And so it simply becomes a matter of food security.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: And what about is it possible that people just you mentioned uh palatability, that people just liked bread?
22:14
SPEAKER_02: I mean, is that part of it too?
22:16
SPEAKER_03: Well, and beer.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: That's a huge part of it.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: That's a huge part of it.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: And there's also some evidence that shows that some of the ancient civilizations used grain as a population control mechanism.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's several different qualities about grain, and one of them in particular is a substance called gluteomorphine, which is a morphine-like protein breakdown product of gluten that acts as a as a as a morphine.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, so think of it as a as a not just most people think of morphine as a pain, right?
22:46
SPEAKER_01: Pain mitigation.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: But morphine is a suppressor drug, right?
22:51
SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a downer, if you will.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: And so when you have the masses that are mesmerized by a morphine-like compound, then you have less revolt.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: You have people that are happier.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: It's actually speculated that the Romans used and gave bread freely as an effort to control the masses, the mob, if you will, the Roman mobs.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, so so there's evidence to show that they knew this.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: There's evidence to show that this was actually part of the plan of some of the hierarchical, if you will, royalty, you know, of the different times, used this product to medicate the masses.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: There's some evidence too that shows that it was calming to the to the nomadic.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: And so there was less warfare, right?
23:36
SPEAKER_01: Because people were kind of drooling, and and I say this like like visually, they weren't really drooling, but like they were more feminist out.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: So like they're less violent, they're less aggressive.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: And so that allows for more, you know, more collaboration and more communication and and less warfare, right?
23:52
SPEAKER_01: And so now you have a sustainable source of food, you have a food that can that can suppress violence or can can suppress um warring, if you will.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: And so you can actually grow a civilization.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: And this is why it's a double-edged sword, in my opinion, is that you have a food that's allowed for the progression of society as a whole and and to develop different new technologies, but at the same time, it's also created chronic inflammatory illness.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: So it's again, it's that trade-off.
24:20
SPEAKER_01: It's okay, we have a culture, we have a society that can sustain without starvation, but we also now have chronic diseases that we have to find ways to treat.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: And my argument today is that we live in a society in a civilization where we know that.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: And because we know that and we understand that, we can create with all these technologies that we have better ways to eat, where we don't have to have that trade-off of eat this food that creates slow inflammation, the slow poison, if you will.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: And um, now we can eat things that won't slowly poison us to death and still maintain that that culture, that that society, and that civilization.
25:00
SPEAKER_02: Well, one of the interesting uh uh kind of side nuances to this whole uh discussion is stored hay for herbivores or stored forage for herbivores.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: So we have cycles.
25:12
SPEAKER_02: I mean, down where you live, you know, uh um down where you live, grass stops growing not because it gets cold, but because it gets dry.
25:19
SPEAKER_02: And of course, in the Mediterranean climate, uh that their seasonal, their seasonal forage cycle is um you know, it is not is not cold, it's it's dryness.
25:30
SPEAKER_02: The medit, you know, the six months of of wet, six months of dry.
25:33
SPEAKER_02: Where I live, uh generally, generally the grass doesn't stop growing because it gets dry, it it stops growing because it gets frosted and gets cold.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: And so when you when you uh in those ancient civilizations, when you to to maintain um to maintain on the hoof nutrition, which also doesn't require um I mean what one of the reasons Africa, you know, so many civilizations use animals as a measure of wealth uh is because it they're transportable.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's the the the cow, the cow tethered to the conestogal wagon in Little House on a prairie um that the that gave a cup of milk a day to the infant, that that was real-time nutrition.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: You know, that didn't have to be carried, transported, and and so the the transportable real-time uh and and rats and mice didn't eat the cow, you know.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: Uh and so there there is a I I would simply uh I would simply suggest there seems to be an argument to to say, well, well, you can have real-time nutrition, you just have to make hay while the sun shines for your you know for your herbivores, and and then you can have real-time nutrition, you know, off-season.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: But until very recent times, haymaking was incredibly arduous.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: Uh and so if you're gonna if you're gonna put a roof over something to store it, you want to store something that's compact like wheat, not non-compact like like uh like hay or like grass.
27:08
SPEAKER_02: And and so today, in addition to freezing and refrigeration, we now have mechanical haymaking capacity so that we can efficiently make store non-seasonal feedstocks for herbivores to preserve real-time nutrition uh without clay pots and and and just grain storage.
27:30
SPEAKER_02: It's just an interesting uh civilizational technological uh crossroads that maybe at the very time that we've learned the dangers of grain-based uh diets, we now have the mechanical ability to to create real-time off-season forage storage for the herbivorous community uh to give us non-seasonal real-time nutrition.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: That's just that's fascinating, isn't it?
27:59
SPEAKER_01: It really is.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: And it, you know, an evolution of how things have come to be.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: I don't I I don't think anybody really knows 100% the answer because the the further back we learn, the more archaeological sites we dig up, the more we realize what we think we know is actually not true in this hundred percent across the board.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Everybody at this time frame in the history of the world did this or everybody did that.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: We we see cultures that grew grain thousands and thousands of years ago, but we also see a lot of cultures that were no hunter-gathering nomadic cultures.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, as as as complex as society is today, the way that it evolves, I think we have that same aspect of history that sometimes we just forget to think about.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think I think my takeaway from this little uh segment of discussion, and Cena, I'm glad for you to to jump in here.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: Now I've I've dominated things so far, but uh I this is so fascinating, it's really uh interesting.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: And I hope I hope, Dr.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: Osborne, that you don't get these kind of questions all the time.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: Um No, I don't.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: They're great questions, though.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: But um my my takeaway from this little discussion is okay, so grain Grain developed.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: The whole the whole holy grail, that's what I was after.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: How did this holy grail develop?
29:20
SPEAKER_02: It did not develop nutritionally, it developed, it developed politically, socially, uh, um, economically, but it but the the holy grail of grain did not develop to get better nutrition.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: And that's my takeaway.
29:41
SPEAKER_02: And for me, that's enough, that's enough to strike at the very heart of this of this this this grain-based um you know, grain-based pyramid that we have.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: Fascinating.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: If you if you take what you just said, it did not evolve nutritionally, look at his historically at the malnutrition, at the diseases of malnutrition.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: If we look at, for example, infectious disease, we when you have a population that that that becomes bigger, that grows, and you put more people in a location, you know this you're a farmer.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: When you put more animals in the same location and pin them up, they're more prone to disease and illness and malnutrition.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, the same thing is said, we've herded people into cities, we've grown kind of a monog uh monogenous food source, if you will, and it's a low nutrition food source, we see massive quantities of disease start to evolve as a result of that.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: And uh, but because it's so socially accepted, people can't fathom, you know, they they grew up at the you know, food is love.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: And so, as food is love culture, you know, as we as we move through our culture, what our grandma made for, you know, the snickerdoodle cookies at Christmas time, right?
30:53
SPEAKER_01: So, like, okay, that's love, but that's what my my grandma loved me with those cookies.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: I can't fathom removing that grain-based food from my diet because it's such a part of my culture and such a part of who I am, you know, within my family.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: And it represents that love.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: So for me to walk away from that is is like saying I'm walking away from love.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one of the biggest challenges people face psychologically when they're ill, they have to get to a point.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: You know, I always say they get their pain level has to become greater than their fear of change or their fear of deviating from the social norm because people are herd animals, and just like with chickens, they have a pecking order, right?
31:33
SPEAKER_01: You've got chickens that will peck on the lower rung chickens, and they will be like, you go over here, and I'm gonna be over here.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: This is the better perch, this is the better food, right?
31:43
SPEAKER_01: We we do that same thing in society, and so many people want to follow that herd and to break away from that social thought process of eat your cookies and have your Taco Bell.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's a very challenging and very overwhelming thing for people to do psychologically, again, unless their pain of illness is so great that it overcomes that fear.
32:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and and the uh a lot of times the person calling the shots like that is not necessarily the biggest one in the room.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: It might be a little the little diminutive, the little diminutive matriarch who nobody wants to cross.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: Nobody wants to cross grandma, you know.
32:22
SPEAKER_02: And so little diminutive grandma uh uh articulates the you know the uh the schedule of the day, the food of the day, the you know, and and and and the the framing, the framing of the entire function is being articulated by you know by this little you know uh uh matriarch.
32:40
SPEAKER_02: And and uh who wants to who wants to cross her, you know, nobody.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: No one great.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: Cena, why don't you why don't you jump in now?
32:52
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for humoring me this this uh this discussion.
32:56
SPEAKER_02: It I I find it really, really fascinating.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Well I I do too, and I appreciate you asking the questions because I think that's where it needs to go.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: We need to move away from the scientific blaming of hey, grain is bad for everybody, and just listen to me because that's what I said.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: And we need to ask these types of questions.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: How can we move forward as a society?
33:16
SPEAKER_01: How can we create food based on the fact that it's nutritious and healthy?
33:21
SPEAKER_01: And how can we do it sustainably?
33:23
SPEAKER_01: And how can we create, you know, through nutrition, better minds, more intelligent minds?
33:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's something else that you know we haven't really talked about, but like brain size and IQ play a role in in nutrition, right?
33:36
SPEAKER_01: We know, like, for example, that zinc deficiency and grains are a horrid source of zinc, right?
33:41
SPEAKER_01: But zinc deficiency as a species, humans are less intelligent when we have zinc deficiency.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: We're born with lower IQs, our brain circumference size is smaller.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, what does that mean when you fast forward one generation, two generations, three generations of suboptimal zinc as a result of a certain food?
33:59
SPEAKER_01: Do we actually see a decline in intelligence over time and therefore a decline in technology, a decline in morals, a decline in virtually society as a result of malnutrition?
34:09
SPEAKER_01: It's just been a slow form of degradation.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: Well, we I mean, we see it.
34:14
SPEAKER_02: We that this is the this is the problem with um you know with factory farming and confined animals.
34:21
SPEAKER_02: I mean, one of our one of our uh benchmarks here at the farm is um people ask me, you know, how did you why or how did you invent all this stuff?
34:32
SPEAKER_02: And I my simple answer is, well, animals move.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: Animals move, you know, and and and that that is simply if you posit animals move, well, then you don't have factory chicken houses, you don't have, you know, pig factories, you don't have uh uh feedlots.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: And so not only have we kept them from moving, we've we've made them uh sedentary, but then we've we've fenced them out of their their uh their their uh grass-based uh grass-based salad bar, um, salad bar habitat and substituted that with concentrated grains.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: And uh and so you know, whereas it you know, if if the average American would eat, for example, grass-finished beef only, that could help to ameliorate some of the you know the grain trade-offs.
35:23
SPEAKER_02: But when you get when you get grain, grain-based herbivores too, plus your tacos, plus your Cheerios, it it's just it's just an overload, you know.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: But maybe we could handle some, um, just like like the Native Americans, you know.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: They were what they were like, you know, six inches taller than the Europeans uh when they came, but but they ate primarily, you know, primarily meats that were not in confinement uh factory houses.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: And so now we've not only we've not only deviated from the stuff that in the stuff that we grow, but we've deviated in in our animals that we grow for for consumption as well, and deprived them of non-grain, non-grain supplementation, whether it's you know fallen fruit or fallen nuts, uh, you know, uh bugs, worms, grasses, weeds, uh, herbs, you know, legumes and things like that.
36:14
SPEAKER_02: So so that enters into the equation as well.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, what you said, animals move.
36:19
SPEAKER_01: And so in in in uh in um holistic medicine, there's a concept called the triangle of health.
36:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's you know, if you can imagine a triangle, and at the center of the core, the hub of the triangle is your genetic material, your genetic code.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: But the three walls of the triangle represent you know, three human fundamentals for health, and this is true of animals as well.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: Fundamental number one is healthy biochemistry, which would be nutrition, clean air, clean water.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: Fundamental number two would be movement, would be physicality, right?
36:50
SPEAKER_01: There's an old saying in engineering square tires don't roll.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: And so when you have when you have animals being cooped up, what happens is they have massive atrophy, they have muscular atrophy, and that atrophy leads to you know poor circulation, which leads to toxic buildup in the meat, right?
37:09
SPEAKER_01: So you have like lack of physical activity creates an unhealthy animal, and an unhealthy animal creates an unhealthy human who's eating that unhealthy animal.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: And then there's the third wall of the triangle, which is the emotional spiritual uh aspect.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, we all we tend to, as humans, think that we're like a higher form of life and that animals can't think, or that don't they don't love, or that they can't uh they, you know, that they can't.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, you you I I've gone, I'm on a farm, I know you're on a farm.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: Animals, you look into their eyes, they they have spirits and souls and they love and they just have a different way of communicating.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: So imagine you pin up all these animals and you steal their babies away from them, you know, month after month, and they're they're left with no physicality, a poor nutritious diet, and we're robbing them of their freedoms to move, and we're robbing them of their children.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: How healthy emotionally do you think those animals are going to be?
38:05
SPEAKER_01: And so those hormones that they're producing, the stress hormones that they're producing, massively show up in that meat, and that's measurable, and we know that.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you take away or you strip away the three fundamental pillars of good health from animals, and then you you you mass produce that and you feed that to the masses, of course, you're gonna have the movements like the vegetarian movement, because that what they see is they see these animals being treated horrifically, right?
38:34
SPEAKER_01: And they're more empathic to the animal's plight.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: And I understand that.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: So, like just from their own internal, like I don't want to support that, so I'm not gonna eat animal foods, right?
38:43
SPEAKER_01: And but then there's malnutrition that could potentially come from that.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Now, that's not to say that some cultures can't be vegetarian or more plant-based.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: There are people like that.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: We we actually test for those types of things.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: But as a general, as a general rule, you you can't just dismiss the core what I call non-negotiables, right?
39:05
SPEAKER_01: Non-negotiable factors of good health, which is good biochemistry, good physicality, and good spirituality.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: And if you and if you negotiate those things away, you it doesn't matter what you're eating.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: You could do the same thing with the plants.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: You could you could take away their uh their ability to thrive in in their environments and in the ways that plants do.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: So anyway, I think I like what you said.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: Animals move, and I I think that that that's true.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: If you're gonna farm them and you're gonna farm them responsibly, you've got to allow for that movement.
39:34
SPEAKER_02: Right, right, great.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: Okay, Cena.
39:38
SPEAKER_03: I've got my laundry list of questions I've been jotting down.
39:41
SPEAKER_03: This has been fascinating.
39:42
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna piggyback on a lot of the conversation we've already had and try to tease some stuff out.
39:47
SPEAKER_03: So my first question is for Joel in the wild, how much grain would say a cow eat in the wild?
39:58
SPEAKER_02: Well, cows certainly enjoy picking the seed heads off of grass.
40:02
SPEAKER_02: That that's for sure.
40:03
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I mean, there there's a certain stage.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: Uh there's a certain stage that the seed it's kind of a it's not a mature stage, it's kind of a doughy, a doughy early stage around here, you know, it it in in the in the in the physiological life cycle of the of the grass plant, it might last uh, you know, kind of two weeks during pollination that period of time.
40:30
SPEAKER_02: And and the cows will go, they will pick, they will just pick off the seed heads just like uh like you were taking snippers and snip off the seed heads, only right at that time.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: Um and then of course they you know they they they eat all the the grasses too.
40:45
SPEAKER_02: So I g I guess my point is that um that while there is a period of time when they do eat really uh eat uh the seed heads prolifically, um A, the seed heads are a minuscule part of the plant.
41:03
SPEAKER_02: And B, they're they're they're eating a tremendous amount of other stuff along with it.
41:09
SPEAKER_02: Uh so so you know, even when they're even at the most seed picky time they could be, they're probably eating them more like a like a 15% supplement.
41:21
SPEAKER_02: There just simply aren't that many.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: It's not like wheat seeds, it's not like you know, uh soybean seeds, it's it's it's grass seeds.
41:30
SPEAKER_02: And so um they're just there just aren't that many.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: So it might be a 10 or 15 percent um you know high high carb supplement for them, you know, during that period of time.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: Okay, and compared to like a cow that's in the industrial food supply, like oh well, if if I mean, um, of course, you know, most cows are on pasture until they go to the feedlot where they get a very uh concentrated uh ration of grain.
41:56
SPEAKER_02: And there, you know, that grain might be as high as goodness, um over 50%.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it can't be a hundred percent because an ur an herbivore can't live on a hundred percent grain.
42:08
SPEAKER_02: It it it it ties up their rumen and they they die.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: Um but you know, they you can push them up into the you know to the 50% uh amount.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: And and and that's not just for a for a two-week period.
42:22
SPEAKER_02: That's you know, that's ongoing, you know, for a for a long you know, up to 120 days.
42:28
SPEAKER_02: Um that you have this real very high grain hot, you know, so it's like uh it'd be like like eating Snickers bars, you know, eating eating half half of your diet in Snickers bars for you know for 120 days.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: What would you feel like?
42:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:44
SPEAKER_03: I feel like junk.
42:47
unknown: Yeah.
42:47
SPEAKER_03: Well, it it's the this is the one of the things I wanted to tie this in, you know, this is why I'm so happy to have both of you, these experts in these fields.
42:54
SPEAKER_03: I want to tie this together.
42:56
SPEAKER_03: So what you know, what I'm hearing you say, what we know, we've talked about this in our book, is that um grains are not a staple of animals in the wild, right?
43:06
SPEAKER_03: They they're gonna consume this in a small amount, like think about cows, for instance.
43:11
SPEAKER_03: So um you make the cow sick when you put them in these feedlots and give them these high levels of grains.
43:17
SPEAKER_03: But my thought is if I'm looking at in nature, what happens in the wild, like you said that they don't eat a lot of grains, but they can tolerate, consuming tolerate some grains.
43:26
SPEAKER_03: So Osborne, this is for you.
43:28
SPEAKER_03: And this is um kind of a two-part question.
43:32
SPEAKER_03: The first part of this question is the response that I get from a lot of people is people who have problems with consuming grains, whether they're like non celiac gluten sensitivity or they have celiac or the gluten tolerance, you name it, that this is a modern condition.
43:51
SPEAKER_03: That there aren't actually examples in like ancient times of people having issues with grains other than.
44:00
SPEAKER_03: This morphine-like effect that you talked about, that we can have.
44:05
SPEAKER_03: But that there's no documented cases or no kind of evidence, fossilized evidence or anything, that this happened anytime prior to like 50, 60 years ago.
44:14
SPEAKER_03: So that's that's the first thing I'd love you to address.
44:16
SPEAKER_03: And the second is when talking about how we we we document that there's been there's been this rise in like non-glute, um, not so we have gluten sensitivity and things like this.
44:31
SPEAKER_03: And people will blame it on different things, right?
44:34
SPEAKER_03: Some will say this is just a modern thing, we have more of the genotype for it.
44:37
SPEAKER_03: Some will say, oh, we're diagnosing it more frequently, you know, and some will blame glyphosate, for instance.
44:44
SPEAKER_03: So my second part of the question is why do you think we are even anecdotally seeing more people that are having issues with consuming grains?
44:58
SPEAKER_01: Like you just opened up the biggest can of worms.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: Um so part, yeah, part one is you know, we don't have a lengthy history of farming in agriculture the way that we currently do it.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: Like that's relatively new.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: And so certainly there are a lot of things that play a role in that.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, one of the things with modern agriculture with grain is the what we use to grow it.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, certainly you mentioned glyphosate, but there's also atrazine and there's other herbicides and fungicides and and uh pesticides that are used in the growing.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: And then there's there's you know the nitrogen fertilizers that are being used in mass to be able to grow these things.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: And then there's also the way that it's stored.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: When they store it, a lot of times grain is stored and they use fungicides to prevent fungal growth and mycotoxin growth into the grain because it it kills animals.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: Mycotoxins are animal carcinogens and human carcinogens.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: And then beyond that, we we extrude the grain.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: So we we we actually there's a dry heating process that happens.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: And so what happens, you heat this grain up and you create compounds called acrylamide.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Acrylamide is like that's like a material that they use to make dashboards in vehicles, right?
46:10
SPEAKER_01: It's like this hard, um, hard plastic-like substance that's a known carcinogen.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: And then we process the grains with chemicals like bromine, and it's a dough conditioner that that makes the gluten gluier.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: And bromine is a halide and it causes thyroid problems and it causes iodine malabsorption.
46:28
SPEAKER_01: And then we also take those grains and we use them as primary staples.
46:33
SPEAKER_01: So, in just in the US alone, the caloric value of the average US diet is more than 50% wheat, and that doesn't include other grains.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: So you've got rice and corn and other grains that play a role in that as well.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: So now you've got the mass consumption of food that's been grown in a very commercialized way using multiple chemicals, but it also sits around and it has time to accumulate biochemicals.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: Then we process it with more chemicals, and then we form it into what we think is a variety of different foods.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: So, like when people say, Oh, I have a variety of foods in my diet, but then cereal is for breakfast, and the milk they pour on the cereal is from a cow that was predominantly fed grain, right?
47:16
SPEAKER_01: And then they have, you know, a sandwich for lunch, and then you know, they have for dinner it's pizza night or it's pasta night or whatever it might be.
47:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, like they don't really have variety in their diet.
47:27
SPEAKER_01: What they have is they have grain that's been shaped uh or contorted into different textural components and called different things, but that's predominantly what they're eating.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: And so you look at that and then you ask, okay, well, what about what about just the nutritional quality of these grains?
47:44
SPEAKER_01: In 1943, the the US government banned the sale of processed grain because it was responsible for about 9,000 deaths a year from berry, berry, and pellagra, which are B vitamin deficiency diseases.
47:58
SPEAKER_01: So we knew that you know, just just processing the grain itself stripped away much of the nutrition, leading to an overabundance of calories with an underabundance of micronutrients, which then caused malnutrition.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: Because for every calorie that you eat, your body needs vitamins and minerals to break that calorie down into energy.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: And if you eat the calories without the nutrients, you're basically raping your nutritional stores internally and developing nutritional deficiency disease from the consumption of that as a mass as a mass food.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, those are just some examples of why we see grain becoming more of a problem.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: Now, now to answer your question about non-celiac gluten sensitivity, there's a lot to this.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: It's I don't think we, I think it, I think that term is incorrect.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: And again, I didn't coin that term.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: That was actually Dr.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: Marsh, the same doctor who invented the the biopsy classification to diagnose celiac disease, but he coined this term non-celiac gluten sensitivity.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: And I think the term really should be non-celiac grain sensitivity or grain sensitivity, because gluten is just one component that people react to within grain.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's different families of proteins in grain.
49:23
SPEAKER_02: What I was trying to get at is when you when you disparage grain, it's like it's like a disparaging mom apple pie in baseball.
49:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's just like built away.
49:35
SPEAKER_02: I mean, the threshing of every every farm museum has everything about grain and and tillage and and the Chicago Board of Trade.
49:44
SPEAKER_02: And I mean it's grain is is is everything.
49:49
SPEAKER_02: And so to go back, to try to go back in history and reconstruct how did we get here and to realize how we got here had nothing to do with nutrition.
50:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:02
SPEAKER_02: That that's just mind-boggling.
50:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
50:05
SPEAKER_03: And like I was saying, I mean, he alluded to the fact too that, oh, you know, that you can if once you switched from like hunter gathering or even the herding to agriculture, then you can start specializing, you know.
50:18
SPEAKER_03: But like I said, there's these newer studies that have been coming out that are showing that that wasn't actually the case, that it wasn't time intensive in many places to do hunting and gathering.
50:30
SPEAKER_03: So to me, depending on the location where somebody lived, um, if they're in a location where it's not going to be time intensive and they do spend about two and a half hours on average a day trying to procure and prepare food, which is what these newer studies are suggesting, then that's not motivation to start tying yourself to a land by you know by doing agriculture.
50:53
SPEAKER_03: Like that's just not much as much of a push.
50:56
SPEAKER_02: Right, which which moves it to this thesis of the book that I'm talking about.
51:00
SPEAKER_02: The push came from from governmental from from from chiefs and tribal lords who wanted to get get control or to well to control, but also my my my you know my tribe has more grain than your tribe, you know, as a way just to you know to compare wealth.
51:22
SPEAKER_02: You know, we're we're a more wealthy group than you are.
51:25
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's there's a lot of that, look at me.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: You know, there's a lot of people.
51:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the ego that that goes along with that.
51:32
SPEAKER_02: And um, and so yeah, that's that's uh that's really good.
51:36
SPEAKER_03: That's what I was gonna say too.
51:37
SPEAKER_03: I think it's so it's part of that government control and part of you know the ego.
51:43
SPEAKER_03: And then as Dr.
51:44
SPEAKER_03: Osborne was saying, that they know now that grains had this morphine-like effect that could pacify the people so they wouldn't ride up.
51:51
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it and so it may not have been a nefarious thing, is what I'm saying.
51:56
SPEAKER_03: It may have been, you know, this thing that they had figured out as they stumbled upon it that oh, we can control this, you know, I can puff up my chest and I can control people with, you know, and control the currency and then look, it placates the people, like, you know, I can keep the people under control and kind of build off from that.
52:15
SPEAKER_03: And so, Dr.
52:16
SPEAKER_03: Osborne, to pick up on that, um, on that aspect of it, you mentioned this morphine-like effect of of the grains and how we knew that, like back in ancient times.
52:30
SPEAKER_03: So, but the bread today still has this morphine-like effect, correct?
52:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no doubt about it.
52:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we we actually have scientifically broken it down and can measure it.
52:41
SPEAKER_01: So um, there's actually some research now showing that how gluten masks its own toxicity is through the you know, the morphine-like compounds within grain causing pain relief and and anti-inflammatory properties, so that when you're eating the food that creates the problem, it masks the damage the food's creating.
53:02
SPEAKER_01: So you don't think it's a problem.
53:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and this is why one reason why it's I think it's kind of a dangerous food in a way, from this perspective, because you've already done a great job of painting the picture that it's not a nutrient dense food and it has all these other components aside from the glutens in it, you know, the mold and you know, the void of different micronutrients and such.
53:22
SPEAKER_03: So thank you for that.
53:24
SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, this is showing that there's this whole other aspect of it to consider that just because you eat it and you don't feel bad, like most people don't have like the gastrointestinal symptoms from eating the glutes, you know, like there's studies showing that.
53:40
SPEAKER_03: And I was fortunate in that I have the gastrointestinal issues.
53:45
SPEAKER_03: So I could eat it within like 20 or so minutes, I would start cramping, get bloated.
53:50
SPEAKER_03: I knew it was from that food.
53:52
SPEAKER_03: That seems to be relatively rare, you know, comparatively.
53:56
SPEAKER_03: So you don't feel it necessarily in your gastrointestinal tract.
54:00
SPEAKER_03: And like you said, you consume it and you can't you kind of get this high feeling.
54:04
SPEAKER_03: And like you said, it can mask the pain.
54:06
SPEAKER_03: So when you're communicating with people, it's difficult to actually try to convince them that it is the grain that's doing this to you, you know, and the same thing with dairy, right?
54:16
SPEAKER_03: Dairy also can have that morphine-like effect, right?
54:21
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that caseomorphine of VCM7, which is a beta caseomorphine, is a protein that, again, just like gluteomorphin, mimics morphine.
54:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
54:31
SPEAKER_03: So as um I I would like for Joel to ask his question.
54:35
SPEAKER_03: You know, you're comparing it, you're comparing giving up grains to like giving up baseball and you know, shunning your your nose at apple at grandma's apple pie, you know, because that's how ingrained it is in our culture.
54:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, ingrained in it's so ingrained, and I thought yeah.
54:54
SPEAKER_03: I am funny.
54:55
SPEAKER_03: Like my husband's like, you're not a funny person.
54:57
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I am funny.
55:00
SPEAKER_02: You are very funny.
55:01
SPEAKER_02: Um so so yeah, it it's to to cast to disparage to disparage something this ubiquitous is almost like striking at at the very foundation of civilization and society.
55:17
SPEAKER_02: And uh and and there's a so there's a lot of whatever, there's a lot of um there's a lot of baggage.
55:24
SPEAKER_03: And a lot of pushback.
55:26
SPEAKER_03: A lot of pushback.
55:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
55:30
SPEAKER_03: So how do you uh you know, I mean, speak to that however you want.
55:33
SPEAKER_03: I'm wondering how do you um respond to that?
55:36
SPEAKER_03: Because you your diet, you're grain-free, correct?
55:41
SPEAKER_04: Right.
55:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, not Jill, Peter, um, and Dr.
55:44
SPEAKER_03: Osborne.
55:45
SPEAKER_03: I'm also grain free, so is my whole family.
55:48
SPEAKER_03: And that was that was a critical piece to my recovery, my husband's recovery, and my boy's recovery.
55:56
SPEAKER_03: Critical that we got all every single little trace of grain out, you know, like even Morton's table salt, as you know, has corn can have um an anti-caiking agent that's derived from corn.
56:07
SPEAKER_03: So everywhere, diligently got it all out.
56:09
SPEAKER_03: Critical component for us to fully recover.
56:13
SPEAKER_03: So we're still grain-free, you know, um, but we have received a lot of pushback, a lot, like to the fact that um a whole family, part of Johnny's family, lives about 35 minutes from us.
56:26
SPEAKER_03: And we have not been invited to any family gatherings, including holidays, like for years, because of the way that we eat.
56:32
SPEAKER_03: You know, we're we're often not invited to social uh different social gatherings because of the way that we eat.
56:38
SPEAKER_03: So the way I've handled this is educating my children so that they understand why we eat the way that we do.
56:45
SPEAKER_03: You know, I we have learned to like bake, for instance, grain-free alternatives so they don't feel deprived.
56:52
SPEAKER_03: They all they too can have cookies and grain-free breads and cupcakes.
56:56
SPEAKER_03: They don't have to miss out on all that.
56:58
SPEAKER_03: And then we have created in our family what we call simple gatherings.
57:03
SPEAKER_03: So there's friends that accept us for who we are that don't judge us.
57:07
SPEAKER_03: You know, this kind of thing really shines a light on who your good friends are, like who's your tribe, right?
57:13
SPEAKER_03: And so those tribal people will come over and they'll participate in these simple gatherings where we don't even have food.
57:19
SPEAKER_03: Like it's the whole simple gathering concept is about the relationship.
57:23
SPEAKER_03: And so we'll do like arts and crafts with the kids or play games with them or go swim.
57:27
SPEAKER_03: And everybody brings their own picnic food, you know.
57:31
SPEAKER_03: So we're not imposing our beliefs on anybody and we're not worried about cross-contamination of cooking in my kitchen.
57:37
SPEAKER_03: So that's how we've been handling it so far.
57:40
SPEAKER_03: How are how do you handle it?
57:42
SPEAKER_03: Um, and and then how do you help your clients, you know, to handle this?
57:46
SPEAKER_03: Because you really are totally going against the grain of our society.
57:51
SPEAKER_03: And in my experience, it can be very um upsetting and um very frustrating as well.
58:00
SPEAKER_02: Very uh very ostracizing.
58:03
SPEAKER_01: It's very ostracizing, yes.
58:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no doubt.
58:06
SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I look at it this way.
58:10
SPEAKER_01: So, so in my own family, it just is what it is.
58:13
SPEAKER_01: We we do it because we all understand it.
58:15
SPEAKER_01: Like, and so that's easy because education shines a big headlight on why.
58:19
SPEAKER_01: And so that you, you know, when you when you eat it or get exposed to it and don't feel well, it's like, why would you hurt yourself?
58:25
SPEAKER_01: That that makes zero sense.
58:26
SPEAKER_01: Like self-love is the number one principle of of what we try to teach.
58:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because without self-love, you can't love others if you don't love yourself first.
58:37
SPEAKER_01: And if you spend a lot of your day eating foods that damage yourself, then what you know, what what the hell are you doing?
58:42
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
58:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, you wouldn't take a fork and just catch yourself, you know, and bleed yourself at every meal, but that's proverbially what many people do.
58:51
SPEAKER_01: They just don't see it that way because they're not educated.
58:53
SPEAKER_03: So step one is is is again, I say or that population of people that we talked about that doesn't actually feel it, you know, like that doesn't feel that effect in it either.
59:05
SPEAKER_01: So there's certain yeah, they they don't feel it, or maybe they're not really even affected all that much by it, and they're generally they can be in good health.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, I look, I'm not an advocate that says that nobody should ever have any grain ever in their entire life.
59:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think we have the science that that could justify saying that.
59:21
SPEAKER_01: That being said, you know, when a person comes to see me in my practice, they're sick.
59:28
SPEAKER_01: So you have you have a choice to make.
59:29
SPEAKER_01: You can continue to live in the agony that you're in and accept, you know, mainstream medical care, which is to mask your symptoms into regression while you're simultaneously poisoning yourself and your and your your you know, basically the risk-benefit of whatever medicine it is that you're suppressing either your inflammation or your immune system with, there are consequences to those things, just like there are consequences to other choices.
59:53
SPEAKER_01: And so we start from from first from the principle of honesty.
59:57
SPEAKER_01: So when I'm trying to help a person, what is what is it that we want to do first?
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: We first want to establish whether or not going grain-free is actually the right move for them.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_01: And that to me, that where that starts is testing.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_01: You have to get them the data in their hands where they can say, okay, yes, this is what I need to do, and now I understand this for me is a problem.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's step one.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_01: Because if you just say, I think if you go grain free, you feel better.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_01: Most people will treat it the same way they treat an Atkins diet for 10 pounds of weight loss.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: They'll treat it haphazardly, they won't really do it much, they'll be semi-committal to it.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: And and the problem with that is the gluten for a person that has a true gluten sensitivity can cause damage at 20 parts per million, which is not a very big amount.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_01: It's like the size of a breadcrumb.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_01: So you first have to identify look, this is a problem for you, this is what you need to do.
1:00:47
SPEAKER_01: Step two in that is is the truth, which is if you eat it, it will make you sick.
1:00:51
SPEAKER_01: So you have two choices in front of you.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_01: I don't ever tell people what to do, as much as I'd say you have some choices to make, right?
1:00:58
SPEAKER_01: And so, choice number one is you can continue to live with the autoimmune condition that you have, and you can medicate it and you can get by with it, but you should know this.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_01: Statistically speaking, you'll die 15 to 20 years earlier than your counterpart who does not have autoimmune disease, and your quality of life will be very poor.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_01: That's a choice that you get to make.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_01: So if your quality of life is dependent upon whether you can eat grandma's cake or pie, and that's who you are as a person, and that's where you find the quality of your life because you're a foodie.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna judge you one way or the other.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_01: That's your choice.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you have a choice to make, and that is you know you need to go this way.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_01: If you go this way, you can either take your family along with you, um, or or you cannot do that, right?
1:01:45
SPEAKER_01: And then because this is genetic, most people that are gluten-sensitive, their kids are gluten-sensitive as well.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_01: As you mentioned, you took your whole family gluten-free.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: My whole family is gluten and grain-free as well.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, but but the fact of the matter is, is we start with truth and honesty.
1:01:59
SPEAKER_01: We start with being analytical about whether or not it's something that they need to do, and then and then we give them the option to make choices.
1:02:05
SPEAKER_01: And once they're ready and in their own mind, they're resolved that that's the right choice for them, then we give them resources, like recipes, cooking, you know, just resources, as many as we can.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_01: Like gluten-free society was founded on the principle of giving people free education and resources so that they could navigate this with less grief, but also have resources they could give family members to help along with the understanding so they feel less ostracized.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of people they don't go to their families with, you know, or they feel uncomfortable at food-based meetings.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_01: It's the same in my house, right?
1:02:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's no different.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, when I have host Thanksgiving, I cook uh and we cook grain free.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_01: And if you don't like that, you're welcome to bring whatever it is that you would like.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: If you want to bring a dish and, you know, you want to you bring the special pumpkin pie with the special crust or whatever that is.
1:02:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna Nazism anyone around me to conform to my will.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, I'm not gonna poison my family so that you'll come visit me.
1:03:06
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and I don't expect, I don't expect you to create a grain-free meal when I come and visit you.
1:03:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna bring some food and I might eat before I come and and I might just socially interact with you as opposed to, you know, going into a food coma, you know, and and and and and using that as the reason why we're all getting together.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's just perspective.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_01: And and once you, you know, and different people view it differently.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_01: For me, I'm pretty stoic.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_01: It's it's like I'm not gonna hurt myself, so no, thank you.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's easy.
1:03:36
SPEAKER_01: That's an easy decision.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_01: But some people are like, well, gosh, I live to eat and I don't know how to navigate this, and I'm and I'm miserable in that.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I don't have the solution for a person like that, other than knowing that when you cut grain out of your life, it is much like losing a loved one if you're a foodie.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_01: It you will go through the phases of grief, you will go through anger and denial and bargaining until you finally either um stay in that cycle and and you just deviate and you eat the gluten anyway, or you come around to acceptance.
1:04:08
SPEAKER_01: And when you get there, there's a peace.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_01: There's a piece that will come over you because it's the piece of health, right?
1:04:15
SPEAKER_01: It's the piece of doing the right thing for yourself, and it's the piece of not caring what other people think, right?
1:04:20
SPEAKER_01: We in our society we we're so focused on what other people are gonna think about us, not everyone, but but many people are, and that I think that that hurts them and that hurts their journey to a large extent.
1:04:34
SPEAKER_01: So part of what we do is we counsel people through that kind of stuff, right?
1:04:37
SPEAKER_01: We let them know what to expect and just kind of help them know okay, you're gonna navigate all these different obstacles.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_01: And if you know beforehand, you're better prepared to handle them as they come.
1:04:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I absolutely love that.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_03: We we have the same perspective in our family, you know, everything is a choice.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_03: And um, and so and we do the same thing.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_03: We eat before going to parties, we we bring our own foods, you know, with us.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_03: Um, we don't impose it on anybody else.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_03: And it and one way that I got over that that hump of you know, the grief going through the process of like losing a loved one was um once I figured out how to make the grain-free alternatives, you know, that really helped us a lot so that we weren't deprived.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, could I can I jump in here?
1:05:25
SPEAKER_02: Um, I really appreciated that whole that whole uh uh message.
1:05:29
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I'm I'm thankful that that um I guess we just never got into the grain thing.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_02: So we never got imbalanced, and so you know, I've kind of got a cast iron stomach and I don't have to be I'm thankful that I that I don't have to watch it as carefully as somebody who is sensitive to.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm just sitting here, you know, as a as a idea marketer, as a messenger, as a wordsmith.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_02: How how how can you um how can you convey to a person like me how important it is, uh how how important your sensitivity is.
1:06:05
SPEAKER_02: And so um I'm just thinking what would what what could you say to me that would make me ooh uh this is serious.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_02: I I'd better I'd better I I need to think about where they are and just imagine asking a person if I invited you so I so now now I'm just uh I'm role playing a dialogue okay so imagine um uh if if if uh so so now I'm I'm you telling your talking to your friend your friend that doesn't get it okay and I say well now if if I invited you over to my house and said um everybody's gonna smoke a cigar we're all gonna get together and smoke a cigar is that a problem for you most people would say most people would say yeah that that's a problem for me I'm probably not gonna I'm not gonna participate and and and then you take that and and you say okay so that's that's how I feel that's how I feel when you invite me over and push me to eat pie or cake or uh or a croissant and and and I I just need you to understand how I feel and it it's not a judgment it it's just pick pick something pick something that would make you uncomfortable maybe it's not cigars maybe it's something else okay but but but um pick something and so and so that so that they can appreciate how that how that makes me feel and you know that that's that's a way to kind of message and you know get in their head and it's non-confrontational and it helps to get somebody in your you know in your frame of reference.
1:07:54
SPEAKER_01: So what what I the way I teach people to get into the right frame of reference in that regard is I is I is I I say look you have to prepare for those social situations that are going to be uncomfortable.
1:08:06
SPEAKER_01: Okay so like when I go when you know you mentioned cigars when I was in the military one of the things that would happen is everybody would go out and we I worked a midnight shift so most of the people there were cigarette smokers.
1:08:19
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't um but they would all go out on the porch and socially hang out and smoke their cigarettes.
1:08:24
SPEAKER_01: And so like for me it was like either I could go join them or I could not go join them.
1:08:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:08:30
SPEAKER_01: And so I had a choice that I could make I I as a young man I made the choice to go out there with them.
1:08:37
SPEAKER_01: Was it the right choice or the wrong choice?
1:08:39
SPEAKER_01: You know it's nobody's business to say other than my own.
1:08:43
SPEAKER_01: It was my choice.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_01: And and and so when people are going to a family uh gathering or they're going over to a friend's house what what I always encourage them to do is to call that person first.
1:08:53
SPEAKER_01: Like don't show up because there's two sides to this Joel.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_01: If I show up to your house and you invite me over and your your wife and family went through all this trouble to make this really wonderful food out of a place of love and I show up and turn my nose up to it and I say you know what I'm not gonna eat your food um that's gonna be an insult to you because I didn't have the forethought right and maybe it wouldn't be insulting to you but for most people it would be insulting right um because they did go through that effort.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_01: So for me what I what I like to tell people to do is look call that person and say look I have a really special and unique diet that I follow and I just want you to know it's not you uh it's me right like any the old relationship thing it's not you it's me no but but seriously um when I come over I probably will have already eaten I you know I might bring I might bring some stuff with me and I just want you to understand I don't expect you to do extra special things for me.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_01: As a matter of fact I would prefer that you don't because I don't want to put that burden on you.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's just not a it's not a fair thing to ask because you I've had years to understand my diet you you don't understand it and if you got on the internet and tried to understand it you wouldn't you wouldn't do it right and that's again that's not an offense to you.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_01: It's just I don't want to put myself in a position where you've done a bunch of work for me and then I have to say no.
1:10:19
SPEAKER_01: So when I've come over I'm coming over for you I'm not coming over for the food.
1:10:23
SPEAKER_01: And so you prepare the food the way you would want to prepare it you you know and just know that I'm I'm there for the relationship and not necessarily for the sharing of the meal.
1:10:33
SPEAKER_01: And and and if you're okay with that I still would like to come and I still would like to have this friendship.
1:10:38
SPEAKER_01: And if and if you're not okay with that then maybe we could pick a different time where it's not a meal time where we're getting together and hanging out for some other type of reason.
1:10:47
SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day I want to respect their decisions and their ability to eat and feel free to eat and not feel judged you know because I mean it's like this um I don't know you say pick an uncomfortable situation.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_01: I'll share with you like in my family um I'm the only one that is really grain free.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_01: Like I have I have I have multiple siblings you know I have I have uh three sisters two brothers and my mom's not gluten free my dad's not gluten free my brother's not gluten free um my sisters I have one sister that's gluten free she was developing a major illness and she had to go gluten free it's what it's actually what saved her life but the others are all sick.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_01: Every single one of my family members are all sick they all struggle either they struggle with obesity or they struggle with um with severe mental disorder or neurological disorder multiple medications and um you know so when I when I when I'm trying to you know hang out or get together with them I get a little razzed I get a little judged right and I just I just I have to blow it off right in my own mind I just have to prepare myself to know okay I'm gonna when I'm around these people that I love and that I care about but but they don't like my diet or my lifestyle and aren't congruent with it and don't understand it.
1:12:02
SPEAKER_01: I I try to just you know not allow that to to interfere with you know with my thought process around it.
1:12:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean that's the best I can do right I can control my own emotion and I can control the way that I think and I'm not going to engage with an argument with people like that.
1:12:16
SPEAKER_01: And the reason why is just like within my clinic, I I don't advertise and I don't advertise on purpose.
1:12:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't want people to come in and say let's try that gluten free thing out for a little while and see what happens.
1:12:28
SPEAKER_01: No, I this is serious business to me, right?
1:12:31
SPEAKER_01: And so my business is I help people with severe autoimmune conditions restore their health and regain their life.
1:12:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't help people who think this thing might help them lose 10 pounds dabble in something that they really don't deem is important enough to give time and effort into because going gluten free is a very easy a 12 week learning curve at the at the least um and and if you're gonna do it you have to you have to go all in because if you if you you know some people say well I'm gonna eat gluten on the weekends and on the weekdays I'm not gonna eat it sorry that that isn't gonna cut it if you have autoimmune disease and and so I don't know if that's helpful.
1:13:07
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I even answered your question but um but at the end of the day I think I think a person's got to be able to to to own their choices and feel comfortable about not being judged even when they're being judged.
1:13:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah and so um how long do you have Joel?
1:13:27
SPEAKER_02: How long do I have oh another uh yeah we really got people moving around out here probably another 10 minutes I need to because I I I have to do a hay wagon tour here okay so let me try back into a couple things that we had brought up so one one thing that I'm thinking of is so I'm sure um you may I may have heard you say this Dr.
1:13:49
SPEAKER_03: Osborne I'm not sure I've heard this on many different summits that someone who does have this gluten sensitive or grain sensitivity as we can call it that if they consume the equivalent of like one bite of a gluten containing food they can possibly be inflamed for up to two months.
1:14:05
SPEAKER_01: Correct?
1:14:06
SPEAKER_01: That's accurate yeah I mean that that that's accurate.
1:14:09
SPEAKER_01: Now the level of inflammation is debatable everybody's different and has a different resiliency but yes.
1:14:14
SPEAKER_03: Yes and so that's usually how I get it across to people with you know in terms of like you were saying Joel like the equivalent of a smoking a cigar most people now are aware of like the role of inflammation and disease progression you know and so as soon as I seem to tell people like oh even one bite can inflame me for possibly up to two months to some degree that somehow flips with them that that's how serious it is.
1:14:36
SPEAKER_03: It's one bite you know so like you're saying for us it's an all or nothing it's an all it's really an all or nothing lifestyle you know like we it's a hundred percent for us and that's how we've been able to successfully reverse all these conditions and remain healed for so many years.
1:14:52
SPEAKER_03: I want to wrap just tie back in before we go to something that I mentioned in your introduction that you are a leading expert in glutens floral.
1:15:02
SPEAKER_03: Can you explain that?
1:15:03
SPEAKER_03: Because most people think there's like one gluten right can you explain why did I introduce you as you know as expert in floral and where do we find these glutens so the definition of gluten is it's a family of storage proteins found within the seeds of grass seeds of grass what is a seed of grass it's it's grain.
1:15:27
SPEAKER_01: That's what seeds of grass are so you know when you when you look at corn corn's a grass rice is a grass sorghum is a grass millet is a grass oats a grass so traditionally the US the US and and other you know other other countries even define gluten as only out something called alpha gliadin which is one type of gluten found in the seeds of wheat barley and rye but understand that that there are probably over a thousand forms of gluten I know just in 2012 we discovered 400 new forms of gluten um 10 of them were were not alpha gliadin but they were more toxic than alpha gliadin to somebody who has gluten sensitivity.
1:16:10
SPEAKER_01: So you know the whole definition of gluten on a food label in the US and in most modern industrialized countries is that it's alpha gliadin which is one form of gluten found in wheat barley and rye but that's a misconstruance and it's inaccurate.
1:16:23
SPEAKER_01: And when you combine that with the research around gluten-free diets that shows that celiacs, you know, 92% of celiacs that go on a traditional gluten-free diet where they continue to eat oats, corn, rice, and other grains that have other forms of gluten don't heal.
1:16:39
SPEAKER_01: Their inflammation doesn't go away they don't have full recovery that's that's that's horrific.
1:16:44
SPEAKER_01: So like if you told me I had celiac disease and gave me you know a basket of cornbread and a basket of rice pasta and said you can eat all these things you want and I only get eight percent healing like that's a that's a raw deal.
1:16:57
SPEAKER_01: Just give me the 100% disease and I'll eat the wheat.
1:17:00
SPEAKER_01: You see what I'm saying?
1:17:01
SPEAKER_01: Like that's and that's where I was clinically is that I would take people originally this is almost 20 years ago I'd take them originally traditionally gluten free but what would happen is they would they would do better for a few months and then they would whiplash right back into symptoms because they had discovered the corn and the rice and the oats and all the other types of grains that were being labeled gluten free.
1:17:22
SPEAKER_01: And when I started looking into that I started asking deeper questions why are they why are they going backward and so I started doing deeper research I actually started pulling out botany books and because I wanted to know deeper about what gluten actually was and so I came across TJ Osborne's work and in no relation I'm I'm Peter Osborne he's TJ Osborne he's but he's known as the plant uh the plant the protein father of plant protein chemistry right so this guy is actually the one who isolated gluten in the first place and the way he classified it as gluten is a family of proteins found in the seeds of grass that are soluble in alcohol and they're broken down into different constituents.
1:17:59
SPEAKER_01: You have gliadins you have globulins you have you have different types you have omega fractions you have gamma fractions etc so he really broke it down and he and he talked about it not just being in wheat barley and rye and so I I I looked at his work and then I ran across some researchers in South America that were really aggressively studying corn in a in a protein gluten called zin that is found in corn and their research in celiac patients was that zin actually triggered the response the inflammatory response as aggressively if not more aggressively than wheat gluten.
1:18:35
SPEAKER_01: Wow and so then I came across additional research studies from other researchers that where they were looking at rice and they were looking at uh at something called food protein induced enterocolitis or F pies which is being caused by rice proteins and so and so I just kept finding more and more research and then you look at the celiac research which is the people going on this diet don't get better.
1:18:57
SPEAKER_01: Like the vast majority of them they have improvements because they're overall eating less poison right less glutes but they're still getting gluten so they're staying sick and here's the other kicker they're developing other forms of autoimmune disease as they continue to get exposure.
1:19:13
SPEAKER_01: So what what's really common is initially the diagnosis might be celiac disease so they go wheat barley rye free you know several months down the road but now they're developing rheumatological disease like rheumatoid arthritis or psoriatic arthritis or ankylos sponlitis or they're developing thyroid issues like Hashimoto's.
1:19:33
SPEAKER_01: And so when you when you see that that that that development what happens is instead of going back to the original doctor that gave them the diagnosis of celiac disease they're going to the specialist you know that that specializes in rheumat you know rheumatology or that specializes in endocrinology and those doctors are making zero connection between gluten and this new development of autoimmune disease.
1:19:56
SPEAKER_01: And so what they're saying is your celiac has nothing to do with this with this rheumatoid or your celiac had nothing to do with this Hashimoto's and so we just need to drug you right and so now they're being drugged and instead of changing their diet and they never even knew there was a connection and that's that's really the travesty in it all because the number one cause of autoimmune disease in the world the most well researched known cause is gluten period hands down there's thousands and thousands of research studies that looks at gluten as a trigger or a causative agent in multiple forms of autoimmune disease not just celiac disease.
1:20:32
SPEAKER_01: Now there are other triggers for autoimmune disease certainly but gluten is more well studied and more well researched and more well proven than anything else in the world to date and we can't ignore that in my opinion any doctor that's going to treat an autoimmune condition needs to understand gluten is a trigger and that that has to be ruled out first and foremost before any medicines prescribed because the medicines are a stopgap but they're not a solution.
1:20:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah I like that oh sorry I yeah I need to jump in on on that I I want to I just have to ask the question uh uh Dr.
1:21:06
SPEAKER_02: Osborne you you you you gave a bunch of examples of grains and it struck me that there are no perennials in that so when you say grass when when I say the word grass on you know grass finished beef uh pastured chickens you know I'm thinking perennial grass we're not planting grass it's like the it's like the perennial prairie um a perennial as opposed to an annual all the ones that you mentioned are annual is there a difference in the uh in the gluten whatever world uh between the seeds the seeds of annual grasses versus the seeds of perennial grasses I'm sure there are lots of differences um from a gluten perspective even even different I'm gonna give you an example different varieties of wheat have different concentrations of gluten depending on how much water they received whether there was a drought where they were grown what region they were grown in.
1:22:06
SPEAKER_01: So like if you look at gluten what what is gluten actually it's a storage protein right and again it's a family of storage proteins what is its job its fundamental job is to protect the germ of that grass seed.
1:22:18
SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a source of fuel or food for the germ so the germ can sprout and perpetuate the species of the grass but the other function of gluten is it serves as a protection from predation.
1:22:30
SPEAKER_01: So glutins actually have been shown and other proteins and grain have been shown to shut down the pancreas to to to prevent the digestion of the seed itself should an animal start eating on it.
1:22:43
SPEAKER_01: So there are there are components within gluten that that are known to slow down the pancreas and slow down the GI tract and actually irritate the GI tract enough that if a person or an animal eats over consumes it, it makes them nauseous it makes them sick so that they don't overconsume it.
1:22:59
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things you mentioned about cows earlier I thought was very interesting which is there are certain times when those seed heads at a certain period where they're younger where they'll well they'll consume those but they won't always consume and and so what's interesting about a younger seed head is it's had less opportunity to bring in gluten storage proteins and we see the same thing with like tea leaves tea is a is a very good harbor it harbors fluoride out of the soil.
1:23:28
SPEAKER_01: So the older the tea leaf gets the more toxic and fluoride it becomes the younger the tea leaf the the less fluoride it it contains and so the same thing with grain the younger that seed head is the less accumulation of gluten-based protein.
1:23:43
SPEAKER_03: Oh my goodness so you just opened a whole nother line of questioning so um I know Joel has to go but Dr.
1:23:51
SPEAKER_03: Osborne we would love to have you come back on I I literally have been taking notes I have all these questions to ask you um so we'd love to have you come back on and talk about those things and also talk a little bit about COVID and antibodies if you're willing to do that.
1:24:07
SPEAKER_03: But before we go I would be remiss if I didn't mention that you have a glutenology masterclass coming up and I have to say I want you just to you know tell us a little bit about it and then Joe's got to go because I am so excited that you're doing this because like I said you know glute uh grains were a huge game changer for my entire family.
1:24:29
SPEAKER_03: And now you are free of charge sharing your vast wealth of knowledge with anybody who can who can get online to access it.
1:24:39
SPEAKER_01: So can you please tell us a little bit about your upcoming master class yeah I mean we I've been developing this class for the last 20 years and and we just finally put sat down and put it to video and and we've added all the references and resources the science so that you know the science geeks can track down the articles if they'd like to do that and read them for themselves.
1:24:59
SPEAKER_01: But it's 14 hours and it's everything you ever wanted to know about gluten about grains and it's and it's not just the science it's not like just a hey let's all geek out and learn about gluten it's it's also practical applications.
1:25:11
SPEAKER_01: So I mean we first go into the science and we define what gluten is we define what diseases are linked to gluten we define how to get properly tested for gluten sensitivity and how to talk to your doctor about doing the right test versus doing tests that are misleading.
1:25:24
SPEAKER_01: And then we go into you know actual practical applicable things that people should be doing you know how to change your diet how to cook how to prepare your kitchen how to talk to your family members and relatives so that you avoid uncomfortable social situations how to travel how to eat out should you need to um and then we go into other practical applications and dive even deeper into things like autoimmune disease and leaky gut.
1:25:49
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's you know at this point I think the class now is is well over 20 hours we keep adding to it because I just keep adding modules to it.
1:25:57
SPEAKER_01: And again it's free anybody can register um and and I want this information to be free and there's a reason why um and you guys have heard this story but but my my background comes from one little girl named ginger whose life was in jeopardy she had six month six month terminal diagnosis she would give would was given six months to live by her rheumatologist after they had treated her with with powerful medications for seven years and they failed her.
1:26:25
SPEAKER_01: And I look at at her story because we saved her life how by changing her diet there was no miracle drug there was no miracle cure we just changed her diet and saved her life and she's one of 46 million people in the US alone with autoimmune disease 46 million.
1:26:41
SPEAKER_01: That's one in seven people so I mean you know look around the room one in seven have a form of autoimmune disease and if they just had this information it could change their life it could save their life and that's why we're giving it away because we just want the information to be shared and we want people to have access to it so they can come to their own conclusion and make a great decision hopefully for their health.
1:27:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah I love that it's fantastic and that one in seven that's diagnosed right the one in seven people that correct that's diagnosed.
1:27:10
SPEAKER_03: So like I was never officially diagnosed right so I mean there's a lot of us walking around that don't feel good that are somewhere on this auto man continuum that the doctors can't figure out how to you know label us with a specific diagnosis.
1:27:25
SPEAKER_03: So you know in my opinion it's much more than one in seven people and if anybody who's listening to our podcast or watching the video version I highly encourage you to just check it out.
1:27:34
SPEAKER_03: Like you said it's free we're gonna put a link um to where you can register for it we're gonna put a link in the show description it's it's free just check it out you know have it on the background while you're cooking in the kitchen right and just see if it resonates with you because it could actually be your game changer right it could actually be what helps you feel better, have more energy you know not be fatigued stop those headaches, get rid of the eczema, you name it.
1:27:59
SPEAKER_03: You go through that in your program too on this free program.
1:28:02
SPEAKER_03: There's a huge list of conditions that are associated with grains.
1:28:06
SPEAKER_03: So Dr.
1:28:06
SPEAKER_03: Osborne I want to thank you so much for I know you're a busy person.
1:28:11
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for taking the time out of your day to explain this to us.
1:28:14
SPEAKER_03: We really hope you come back I want to pick up when you come back if you're willing on the tea leaves and the perennials and annuals.
1:28:20
SPEAKER_03: And Joel it is always a pleasure to have you here you bring such a great perspective that I can't provide.
1:28:26
SPEAKER_03: So I really appreciate it.
1:28:29
SPEAKER_02: Glad to be here.
1:28:30
SPEAKER_02: Thank you Dr.
1:28:31
SPEAKER_02: Osborne for for being on with us today.
1:28:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah no I I appreciate you guys and I really enjoyed the the different aspects of questioning like to me that's the most almost the most rewarding component because it gets us all to think deeper about it.
1:28:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's you know that's how we progress and learn.
1:28:49
SPEAKER_01: So I really appreciated being on today.
1:28:52
SPEAKER_03: Well great all right so again the link will be in the description and we'll we'll um at some point circle back and hopefully have Dr.
1:29:00
SPEAKER_03: Osborne back on the show.
1:29:01
SPEAKER_03: All right thanks for joining us