Latest / Amplify: A Podcast Powered by Patient Voice Partners / From Motherhood to Medicine: Curiosity, Connection, and Reinvention

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From Motherhood to Medicine: Curiosity, Connection, and Reinvention · Amplify: A Podcast Powered by Patient Voice Partners

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Amplify, Elevating Patient Voices, a podcast powered by patient voice partners, where real stories spark bold conversations.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Ursula Mann.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Brent Cordy.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Together, we're talking with patients, caregivers, and the healthcare changemakers who are listening and taking action.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: From personal journeys to policy shifts, these are the voices shaping a healthcare system that listens.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to Amplify.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_04: I'm Ursula Mann and I'm delighted to be here with my co-host today, Anne Marie.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_04: This episode is sponsored by Medlier Health Outcomes Research.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_04: Sponsorship helps support the Amplify podcast, but the conversation, perspectives, and final content are produced independently by Patientwise Partners and our guest.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_04: A little bit about Medlier.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_04: Medlier delivers rigorous health outcomes research, generating high-quality evidence to support informed and impactful decision making.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_04: Anne-Marie, on today's show, we're chatting with someone that we've known for quite a while who has interesting lived experience as motherhood and as a female.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_04: We're going to talk about that and has pivoted across genetic testing, data, and leadership in the ecosystem.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_04: I'm interested what you think about all those topics that we're going to be diving into.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: All I can say is I was thrilled when you asked me to join you on this podcast because when I met Neelam, we had a connect dinner one evening.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: And what I remember, I was blown away by the way she thinks about innovation.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: But then her passion and energy were just so contagious.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I left wanting to hear more.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm so glad we're here today and we're going to get to hear a little more.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: So I have been fortunate enough to know Neelam for many years.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_04: And we all know sometimes somebody special pops into your life.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes we have special people stay for a while, things get quiet and then they resurface.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_04: And that was the case for Neelam and I.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_04: On the personal front, yes, ball of energy.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_04: But honestly, the one word that comes to mind when I think of Neelam for me personally is inspirational.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_04: And on a personal level, as a female entrepreneur, I just love connecting with her.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_04: She always makes me check myself.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_04: I'm getting a little emotional now.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_04: She always makes me check myself because she thinks of things so positively, even when there are easily times you could be thinking of things in not such a positive light.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_04: And things are a little bit harder, they're a little bit challenging.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_04: And that as a female entrepreneur in leadership, I've just found so special.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_04: We also share a lot of things on the motherhood front differently, but culturally.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_04: With my husband being South Asian, I have always appreciated a sounding ward and a listening ear.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_04: So this one, Anne-Marie, is especially special for me.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Aww, you guys are both so sweet.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like so touched, even just starting out.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: Ursula, I love how the universe brought us back together again.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: We've known each other when we were babies back in our pharma world.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: We're still babies, yeah.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: We started in the preteen program in pharma.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: Elementary school, Neilam.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: Come on.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: Elementary school, they got us young.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: But Ursula's name kept popping up.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone, you know that my neighbor is Nicole, MedTech Canada.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: And your name kept coming.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like it all of a sudden it's like Ursula's name kept popping up.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: Small world.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, why is the universe bringing Ursula back into my field of awareness?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: And now it's like we're together.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: I just absolutely love it.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I love meeting you too, Amory.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's obviously haven't known you as long as our preteen days with Ursula, Bright.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_04: Preteen.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, very good.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_04: And my vantage point was how did Neilam fall out of my realm of awareness?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_04: What is it?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_04: The orbit of Neilam.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_04: Isn't that what we chatted about the other day, Neilam?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_04: I love it.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_04: But welcome to today's show.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_04: We're gonna dive into some really interesting topics and experiences.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I want to say some of the stuff that we're gonna be talking about, and I'm just really excited to dive in.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_04: Interested if you could share a little bit about your life journey before we get to the work front.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: Last time you and I chatted, or many years ago, not last time that we chatted, but there was a lot of conversations around family and what that looks like.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't know that all of our listeners know.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_04: You adopted a daughter, and I would really love to understand and unpack that first to say what happened around that lived experience.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_04: What made you made you decide to do that?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_04: And what was that journey like for you?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I kind of beat you a whole podcast on this as it's one of my favorite topics to talk about.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: Quickly, adoption was always part of my heart.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: Even as I was a teenager, I never spoke about it with anyone.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: But I always had this dream that I wanted to adopt a girl from India.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: Me being Indian and knowing that there is a lot of injustice and the way in which many girls are treated, girls are abandoned.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: So it was always my dream.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then the first night I chatted with my now former husband, I said, I've always wanted to adopt.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think about that?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, I should tell you, I'm adopted.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, wow.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: So he was adopted in Newfoundland, yeah.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: So it was part of our journey from the very beginning.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: So we ended up getting married, going on to have two biological sons, but it was always part of the story that we were going to adopt and we were gonna adopt a girl from India.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: So we started that process in 2010.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I will tell you that it has been one of the most difficult things I've ever done in my life.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: It was not easy.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: It was not easy.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of red tape, bureaucracy, a lot of things.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: So we started the process in 2010 and we did not get a proposal, meaning we did not hear anything about anything related to the adoption until 2014.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: So for four years.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: At that point, my boys were 10 and seven, and we had always said we'll take an older child.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: Well, our boys were getting older because we've been waiting four years, and they call us and they said, We have a three-month-old baby.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, I'm sorry, what?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_04: Because Neil, and sometimes it's the older kids that don't get so that you were like, we would just like a little one.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: So anything works.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was like, I'll take anything because my boys are older, and they said we have a three-month-old baby.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, What?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: And we sat with our children, and my older son, who's now 22, I'll never forget, he said, I said, boys, this is gonna change your whole life.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: This is back to baby.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: And my older son said at the time, he's mummy, I will change diapers.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'll do anything I want you to bring our sister home.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, and so then it ended up being a whole thing.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Jason went back to India twice with my mother, and she finally landed in Canada a year and a half later after we got the proposal, which is July 30th, 2015.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so she's turning 12 tomorrow.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and she is literally the light of our lives.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so that's like I said, I could talk more so much about that, but she was born from my heart.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: My boys were born, obviously, from my heart and my body, but she was born from my heart.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I say to my boys, I'm like, I love you all equally.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: And they're like, Do you really?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: And it's been such a beautiful kind of experience.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I know we're gonna segue into that, but just who is family?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: She is, she's my daughter, heart and soul, she's my daughter.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: She might not look like me.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: She might not exactly have the same genes as me.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: She doesn't look like her brothers or her father, but we are a family.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes she has said things like, Lummy.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it not bothers her, but like when people will say, Oh, I got that from my mom, or I got my hair from my dad.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, genes are so complicated.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: I said, Look, you have curly hair just like mummy.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: I go, so you're just like mummy.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: I go, and you don't like french fries.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: You can't be related to me.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: But then I'm like, I go, but then I joke, but then I said, But you like vegetables and your brothers don't, so they're not related to me.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: You're my daughter.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: So we talk about how interesting an interweave family and genes are.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, oh, you are my daughter.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so many people say, Oh my God, she looks just like you.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: But so anyway, it's like I said, it's one of my favorite things to talk about.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's a wonderful story.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_04: That's incredible.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_04: And thanks for sharing the story.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I can understand how she feels when she's I look like mummy.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_04: I was volunteering years ago for my daughter's school, and my daughter's browner than I am.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_04: I'm pasty white, blonde.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_04: And the kids were like, Where's your mom?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_04: And she points her out and I said, No, that's not your mom.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: You're adopted.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_04: And she's no, she looks just like me.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_04: She's just a little bit browner.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_04: And she didn't tell me that story till years later.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_04: So it's interesting how kids process and deal.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_04: But Neil and congratulations on the beautiful family.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_04: You're an amazing mom.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_04: And over the years, I have absolutely cherished all the stories that I've heard about things progressing.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_04: And thank you for taking us back to that moment because I remember how hard it was with the red tape and the numerous things making things happen.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_04: Now, you mentioned genetics and thinking about who is our family and who isn't our family.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_04: And what does this mean and what does this look like?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_04: In the professional world, you dove into this quite deeply.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_04: Can you tell us a little bit about genetics, this deeper interest?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_04: How did this happen and what does this work mean to you?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_04: And what are you doing in this space?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, Ursula, you and I have a pharma background.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: So spent many years working with physicians, not directly with patients, but with physicians talking about their patients.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I often spoke with physicians about their experiences.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: I would be out talking about a new medication, where there's a new antidepressant and talking about what the clinical trials say.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I would hear it very often, like doctors would say, you know what?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: Some of my patients do really well.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_03: And some of my patients don't do well.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I really didn't have an answer.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: I would say clinical trials say blah, blah, blah.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't until I ended up in Ursula Nose.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't even know that there was this thing called pharmacogenomics or pharmacogenetics until I saw some former colleagues had gone actually to work at a company in Toronto.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, what are they doing?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so I ended up, Ursula knows, I think we met Seagrin.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: I ended up chatting with her on the phone.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: And she said, we're doing this amazing thing here around precision medicine and using genetics to actually provide medication.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: Stopped the trial and error, which is very common.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, jumped right on.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, yes.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I ended up leaving pharma and going to work in this space.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I was blown away.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: I was blown away by the stories of people telling me, oh, my doctor prescribed one medication after another medication, didn't believe me when I said, I don't feel well on this or it's not working.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_04: And they, it was the side effects, efficacy.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: It's all different if the genetics are not aligned with what somebody is taking.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a lot of blame.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of blame that I find doctors will blame patients.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, they're not taking it right.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Or doctor, I hear it all the time.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: People will say, oh, my doctor can't get it right.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: Or society, I think we blame people who just can't get back to work.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, can't they just get better?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: Are they faking the pain?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: What I learned is that's actually not the case.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: Many times it wasn't the right one.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: People want to get better, but if they're not finding the right one and they don't know that there's something that could be done.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: So pharmacogenomics is really the science of drug gene compatibility.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: So, Amory, Ursula, based on your genes, based on your genetic variance, the way in which you're slightly different from me and each other, there is a way that your body will now differently metabolize or move molecules through your system.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example, if you're a very slow metabolizer of medication because you're genes, now you're going to take a regular dose and you're probably going to have increased side effects because you needed to take half the dose because it's building up.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: Or if you're metabolizing it too fast, you might take a medication.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's not working for me, it's not working for me.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: But you needed more, more than the regular dose.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because all these things that are studied, they're like averages.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: So it's been something that I just, like I said, it was a whole world that was open.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: And having worked in pharma most of my career, even physicians, like I work with doctors and they're like, what's that thing you're doing again?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, Yeah, you know, when you prescribe a drug and you tell your patient to go away and come back three months later and see if it works, the thing that would might prevent that from happening.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: There's this really interesting dichotomy I hear out there as well, where there's so much we've come to learn about genetics, and yet we don't know.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: There's so much we don't know yet.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I think sometimes the expectation is we know everything now.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: We map the genome and we know everything now, but we're really just scratching the surface, but it's a really very exciting time.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_04: What are your thoughts about where this is going?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I now have my own company called MedGenius.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so we basically just do the software translation.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: So we go from gene, like we take the genes from a lab, and then we actually are interpreting to make that customized report.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: My feeling about this is that it is the biggest gap to this actually being adopted more is lack of awareness.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: So people don't know about it.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: People think I invented it.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: People are like, wow.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, no, there's a lot of science, there's a lot of evidence.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's done in a lot of hospitals and research institutions around how genes affect response to medications.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: But then my number one thing is where is it going?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: It should be mainstream, but it's lack of awareness.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: And again, I come back to my pharma experience.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of when a medication was being launched, and Ursula were part of many kind of launches of medications.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's equipped, pharma puts a ton of money into it.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: You have a whole sales team of 50, 100 people ready to go out there and educate everyone.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: They have medical science liaisons, all that.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: This area doesn't actually have those resources.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: So when you're a small startup and you're starting to wear trying to raise awareness, that's all you can do is actually just get out there.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like not pushing a mountain up a hill, but it's not a new science.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's been around since the 70s when it first started with analyzing, I believe, CYP2D6.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: But it really has to do with lack of awareness and lack of awareness in education and lack of physicians really understanding where this actually fits in.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: It fits in everywhere.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: And there's so many therapeutic areas: oncology, mental health, pain, cardiology, neurology, where it fit like it definitely does make an impact with medications or it could inform.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, that would be my summary.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's at the end of the day, you could have the most amazing technology, whatever.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: If no one knows if they're not aware of it, it's really not going to go far.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really part of my mission is raising awareness.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's what Ursula knows.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: You see, I'm out everywhere.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so passionate about this.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want people to have to go through trial and error.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want people to suffer when there is an alternative.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: And even with my friends in the neighborhood, I have another friend that just recently came and her daughter is struggling with mental health.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: The doctor has prescribed something.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: She's not doing well.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_04: And Neil and this is substantial.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_04: I spoke to one patient several years ago.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_04: It was 30 medications they failed on before they got on the right one.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I say failed in air quotes, it wasn't their fault.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_04: They were taking it right.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_04: They were taking it, they did not respond.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_04: And the mental toll and time of uncontrolled disease to burn through that was not cool.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_04: And when we talk about what we would tell our earlier self, or if only we could rewind the clock, to remove, I'll use the word misery, but to remove the misery of uncontrolled disease, that would be incredible.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_04: So it's huge.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_04: It's not as simple as, oh, I tried one and then the second one worked for me, necessarily.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Just picking up on what you said there, Ursula, because we're talking about amplifying patient voices, I think it's so insightful what you just said about the air quotes and the patient failed the medications.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: If we could just get our health decision makers and the healthcare system to flip that, the medications failed her.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: The system failed her.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where we want to take the conversation, right?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's what you're working on is how do you start to shift and use the power of this for better decision making, right?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: And as we know, like no matter what condition you might be struggling with, but mental health is always a part of that.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: So just adding on to that, being told that you failed because you're not getting better is really difficult for someone.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: It actually does impact their recovery.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: So A, the medication's not working, and now you have that pressure of feeling like somehow it's you.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: You're the reason why.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: Really, it is you, but it's not your fault.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: It was, you should have found the right one for you.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: So you're absolutely right.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: Wasted time, wasted, not energy.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't want to call it energy, but the most is that the impact on that person, on their physical and mental health.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_04: It is energy for sure, right?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_04: Time and energy is a resource.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_04: And when you're already managing illness, that takes a lot of time.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: It takes energy to process that all.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that is a good description.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: And one thing I remember back from early days and pharma when they were launching a new antidepressant, and there was a speaker, a psychiatrist, and he said something.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: And now I put it in the lens of what I'm doing.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: He said someone might have an episodic depressive episode.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: So in the past or something happened and you needed medication to get better.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: Well, if you didn't actually get on the right medication at that time, that actually might be the difference between I just had an episodic depressive episode versus I now have chronic depression because I never actually got better.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: I was on the wrong medication.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: And now, so if I think that relative to what the work that I'm doing in my imagine someone, something happened, a traumatic event, and someone needed some medication, but it was the wrong medication.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then now they're still not getting better.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: Now this person has chronic depression, whereas if they got on the right medication the first time, it could have been, you know what?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: Something bad happened to me in late 2025, got myself out of it, got on some medication to help me through it, and I'm on my way.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's the lifelong impact it could have.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's huge.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm curious.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: So we were just talking about how interesting the science is, right?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: And continues to be.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think it takes to move from this field from being interesting science to really guiding decision making?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: How do we make that leap?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think that there has been a tremendous amount of work done.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: And as I mentioned, I spoke about quite openly just now is building awareness.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: But I think one of the things is actually doing.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm working with the lab out in Windsor now, and we're talking about actually doing some really good studies in this area.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: So we're gonna, I think, start off with mental health and geriatrics, but actually putting this into action.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: So obviously a lot of this has been done.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: Many studies have actually been done in the United States, but I'd like to see more done in Canada that are done around, okay, here's a cohort of patients that where we can actually demonstrate what the benefit is.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that's really important is in order for this to you really see the long-term benefit of this, it actually has to be long-term.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: So you get a report that tells you these are how you would respond to medications.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: You shouldn't do it as a silo, like in the one time.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: You should actually use it as your information toolbook as you go through your healthcare journey.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: So that's very important because if you actually stop using it, using this guidebook, then you're gonna go back and then you're gonna go talk to another doctor.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_03: They're like, you know what, why don't we just try that other thing?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: And because you don't go back and look and say, it's actually not the right one for me, then you're gonna see it just slip back into old ways.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: We've or Telena I, we've worked in pharma for many years.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: Healthcare system, physicians, they're very much stuck in their ways.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like they do things a certain way.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_04: There's time constraints, there's resource constraints, our systems are siloed and locked into certain ways of thinking.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_04: And some of it is busyness, right?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_04: We know that changes have to be made, but those changes take time and planning.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes we're trying to treat the emergency in front of us, which is understandable.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_04: We're putting out a fire, so we're going to deal preventative on building more systems that's trickier to map out.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_04: It's important, and I think we need to do it.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: We often hear that our healthcare system was designed for not today.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we certainly saw that through COVID.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_04: We are not designed for enough for preventative care and what we really need to help people keep healthy and manage what they're dealing with.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I think too, Amory, is that I really would like to, and Ursula knows this, I really would like to see us more working together.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to be like med genius doing this on my own.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's why I've partnered with this local lab or I partnered.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think the more that we collaborate and work together, the stronger our voice.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's really something that is important.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: There are other companies that do something similar to what I do.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, let's all come together.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: We can lift our voice together.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: What gets in the way of those kinds of partnerships or collaborations, do you think?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think that it's a lot of what Ursula mentioned about physicians, but I think we just operate in silos.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so you just go out doing your own thing.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think someone needs to bring the groups together.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I know we'll talk about this, but I just happen to be the gatherer of people.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: So that's why I was like, so otherwise people just go about doing their own thing, like just operating in their silo, whether it's a company or a practice or whatever, you just go about your own way, doing your own thing with your own agenda.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that if we actually work together, we could actually have a stronger voice.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: So that's something I'd like to see happen.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, I was in some early discussions just around building a North American kind of PGX, which is pharmacogenomics or for sure, PGX coalition.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm also part of the UK.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: UK has a working PGX coalition.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think when you come together around a cause, you're gonna make more movement.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm really passionate about that.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm also a startup.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: So it's okay.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: I have to just get myself, you know, during a little bit.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: Then I'm gonna bring everyone together.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: So, Neela, you're CEO of Med Genius.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_04: You do like bringing people together.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_04: You saw data silos and you're like, I don't like this.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_04: You wear more than one CEO hat.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_04: Tell us what you're doing on the data front.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: So there's another organization called Odin Site, the one data integration nexus.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: And really the idea is how does information, i.e.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: data, we were just talking about MedGenius, how does your genetic data, your personal data, better inform outcomes and better enable you to be healthy?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's the same thing with our health data.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: There is a Neilum that has been here.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't born in Canada, but I came here when I was a baby.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: There's neil them from when I was a baby all the way to now.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: And that story of who I am, there's a lot of insight in it.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a lot of data there.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't access that.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: I have actually thought, I said, I don't really know what was on my blood reports from when I was pregnant, as I it was a different doctor back then.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: So even just when I'm talking about me, that longitudinal kind of longitudinal look at my own health data is missing.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: Let alone nealum in my doctor's office, what happened at the hospital, what happened when I got my tonsils out when I was a kid, what happened when I had two eye surgeries for strabismus when I was a kid, what happened when I had my C-sections?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's no story united of Neilum.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: And now take that macro level.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: There's no unification around health data.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: What is Ursula's experience and her health journey?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: Might we could learn from each other, but we can.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's all broken apart and silo.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: Longitudinal and short term.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_04: We have differences among provinces.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_04: And this is something we've spoken a lot on the data front with colleagues that we collaborate with.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_04: Different hospitals have different levels of data access for people, from getting test results to even having it transfer across specialists.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes people are falling through the cracks because multiple diseases are like, well, I talked to this, to that doctor, this goes to that doctor.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_04: Who's centralizing it?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_04: No one other than the patient, perhaps.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_04: And that's a lot.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_04: Managing 16 specialists for one person as I do with one hat, that's a lot of processing to make sure how we're capturing this.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_04: So even short-term data gaps in acute care, where we're like, where follow the information?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_04: Where does it go?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_04: I always like to say, how are we not set up as a spa system?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_04: We talk about you go to a spa, it's a very nice experience.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_04: And it's meant to feel comfortable, it's meant to feel inclusive, and we really think about the experience.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think we're there in healthcare yet.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_04: Not that I'm very excited to go to the spa and not very excited to go to a hospital, but could it be better?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_04: And what does that look like from a system standpoint?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_04: And how are we building structures and processes in place?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: So I find the data silo conversation, yes, longitudinally and jurisdictionally across provinces quite fascinating.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_04: I'm excited by the work that you're doing on both fronts, Nilon, with Med Genius and Odinsight.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I was just talking about what is it take, Amory, you're saying, to amplify Med Genius.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: It is the same kind of principle with Odinsight.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's what if we all came together?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: What if we actually came together and unified it along in kind of a collective arrangement, like a framework for governance and sharing, privacy and policy.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone is interpreting things.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm in Ontario.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's one hospital says, yeah, we can do that.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: No, the other one says, no, we can't do that.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: They've interpreted the policies differently and they want to come together, but no one has organized it.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I do find it funny that me, Miss Social Butterfly, is now at the center of this trying to organize it.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: And people are really excited because they were like, oh, yes, I would love that.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, I would love if we came together.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so this is actually floating.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not divulging too much, but this is actually gaining interest at our federal level as well.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because we are in a time right now where we really need to prioritize some of these nation-building infrastructures and health data in Ontario, our premier always talks about the critical minerals.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I say health data is a critical mineral.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: It is a critical mineral that'll not only help Canadians, but actually drive innovation around the world.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: Pharma companies are looking to recruit patients for clinical trials.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: They're trying to understand how to develop better.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: We have innovative companies here in Canada that are, they're not able to compete with the big pharma.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: They want to run clinical trials, they want a patient data set.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: There's so much that we could do for Canadians and the world.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: We could, you said, Ursula, we were living in a time where COVID happened.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: They actually said, like all the reports said, if we had better unification and access to data, we would have much better dealt with COVID.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a thing that happened all over the world.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: And God forbid something happens again.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: But how do we actually get in front of it?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: Data and understanding who do we need to prioritize, how like really quickly act on it, would be driven by information that data could provide.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: So it is the right thing to do.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think that there are a lot of people, like I said, Ursula knows about this.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone I talk to are like, please do it.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: Please, this is what we need.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_04: We want patients to own their own data and have access to it at the right time.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's substantial.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's a really interesting point in time, I think, that we're living in where we have so much data, but we have so little ability to bring it together to be used in a powerful and meaningful way.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: And that's probably the opportunity, would you agree, that's on the table for us right now?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: And the way in which Odinsight is approaching this is not by there are some other organizations that are acquiring more data, buying up companies that have data, buying up companies.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that's actually the long-term approach.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: You can't hold on to data.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: If we want to make it useful and powerful, we got to share it.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't think that model is good.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: It might be work for the short term and also for that organization's like short-term interest.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm thinking bigger picture.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking nation building, and I'm thinking this is what we do.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: And the only way that I think it will work is actually if we all come together.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: Not buying more data.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: We can't have one person that owns all the data.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's not gonna, that's not gonna work.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_04: Now, Neela, I mentioned earlier a CEO on two fronts, leading two different organizations and a female entrepreneur.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_04: I think that something that some of our listeners don't know about you is exactly what you were navigating to make this happen on the personal front.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_04: And you were going through a divorce in your personal life as you were navigating significant work changes.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_04: Take us through what was happening and what your thought process was around life.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: My adoption needs its own podcast, and also this needs its own podcast.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that just if I talk about my career in the past, like I think I've spent many years in pharma and I always say, like, I never had a path to the stars.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: I was always just like a good hard worker, really appreciated being like a team member in my time in my the different companies.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: But in 2023, which is just about three years ago, my world shifted dramatically.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: And that was when my 20-year marriage suddenly ended.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so it threw me for a loop.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: I at that time, I was actually not working at the time.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: So I was unemployed.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: I was navigating a divorce.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: I was really um, I wouldn't say struggling, but I do, I think, from a personal and spiritual perspective, I got that this was happening for a reason, but I didn't know it at the time why this was all happening.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: And at the time I was still panicked.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh my God, I gotta get another job.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: I've got to keep the case.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_04: How could you not be?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like the carpet is ricked out from under you.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_04: There's such changes.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I went back and I was desperate to get a job.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: And this is in 2023.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: I needed to pay the bills, I needed to navigate this divorce, I needed to whatever.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I did go and get a job.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: And what I realized very soon is that I was in a place which didn't align with my values.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: And that actually it felt even worse than being unemployed.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: When I'm somewhere where the people around me are not operating in similar values, I found that actually more difficult.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: So then in 2024, I kind of just let it all go.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, you know what?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: Why don't I start Med Genius?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's when I started Med Genius.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: It was almost like my life all went up in the air and all marriage and anything.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, okay, you know what?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: Let's just throw a new thing in the mix.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: And why don't I become an entrepreneur?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: And if you had asked me in 2023 or any of the years prior, me?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: Me be a CEO?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have what it takes to be a CEO.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have the experience.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I was told that actually before.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: They're like, you're lovely, male.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you're this and this.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: You're not CEO material.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I have to say that I really want to go by back to say to this male that guess what?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: Guess who's a CEO now.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: But what I would say about my experience and just growing it up and being a CEO, not once since becoming a CEO has anyone ever said to me, hmm, you don't look like a CEO.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, I hear the opposite.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, you have such CEO qualities.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: So my message actually is, oh, and then I'm gonna backtrack.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: When I told my dad, I said, Dad, I'm going out on my own.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: And my dad said, That's great, honey.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's okay if it's a little late.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, Dad, are you saying that at the time I was gonna be 50?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: Are you saying that I'm gonna be 50?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: So my message really is that's never too late to start something new and fabulous.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like I have grown more kind of personally, professionally at this time in my life.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I love and appreciate all the experiences I had previously that led me to this point.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: But I think I'm better for it.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: So even when I'm speaking with friends or women that are similar in age, it's oh, I don't think I could do that, or I don't see myself doing that a month.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: Neither did I.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_04: Here I am.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_04: Neilam, you take managing uncertainty to a whole new level.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm gonna ask you about that in just a sec, but you have heard me say this to you a number of times.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_04: It's inspirational.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_04: The number of things you're juggling and the risk and bravery, bravery and the face of risk to do it even at that time.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_04: People always say it's not the right time, it's not the right time.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_04: Arguably from societal expectations and even, oh, geez, I've got children.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_04: I have bills to pay.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_04: From a practicality standpoint, it would have been very easy for you to say it's really not the right time.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_04: And you decided, sure, you can say caution to the wind, but you decided, no, we're doing this and we're doing this now.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_04: What would you say is your viewpoint on managing uncertainty?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_04: How do you juggle what that looks like and what's your self-talk like?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I think two things when it comes to this idea of managing uncertainty and taking this big bold risk.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think for the first time in my life, I took a chance on myself.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: And that's gonna make me tear up, right?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'm South Asian.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: So like I came with not the baggage and I love, I was the good daughter.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: I did all the things.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: I went to university and went to NBA.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: I got married.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: I got married to an East Coaster.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: So my parents took a whole while to get over that.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I did that, and then I had my boys, and then I adopted us.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I did check, check, check, check, check, check.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: But then it's like, I don't know if I ever really took a chance on myself until this point in my life.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's number one.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think number two, with uncertainty, I really passionately believe in the magic of surrender.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I have thought to myself so many times.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, I will quote this book is fabulous.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: Coop Blackson's The Magic of Surrender.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: I've listened to it like three times.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: But it really is like just surrender.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: Surrender.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: And what is the worst that could happen?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: So for me, the worst thing that could happen is that I'm homeless and my children are homeless.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: Is that gonna happen?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: So everything's up from there.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's how I approach it.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: So with uncertainty, what is the worst that can happen?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: The worst that could it's not gonna happen.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: The worst is not gonna happen.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: So everything is up from there, and then I'm just gonna keep on taking a chance on myself because I'm willing to take the risk with uncertainty.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because even if it all goes bad, I'm still gonna be okay.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm still okay.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: I still I focus on obviously my mental health, my physical health.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like I lifted my weights as one needs to do in Perry Manopause.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: Those 10 pounds are way too heavy.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_04: I really they're oh so frustrating.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I know it's funny.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like I focus on all the I think the right things for staying healthy.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: But what is really the uncertainty?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's what I say is I don't want to have that regret, is that I didn't take a chance on myself.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's what's driving this.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: What a beautiful gift you're giving both your sons and your daughter to believe in themselves, to invest in themselves.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: The idea that anyone is worthy of investing, right?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: My son said that to me.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, he's 22 years old and he can be 22-year-old now.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: One day he came home and he says, You know what, mom?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: I gotta tell you something.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: And he says, You're the most impressive woman I've ever known in my entire life.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: And he goes, and you're my mom.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, The bar is high now.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: He said, It just hit me.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: He goes, I see you working and hustling and still there for us.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: Because my kids, the my kids joke, they're like, Oh, we say, Mom, can we have this?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_03: You'll leave your desk and go get it for us.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: You're still mom to us.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: But you're doing all these things and my kids see me hustling and working.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I think it's so true, Anne.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: I've given, I didn't intend to, but it's funny because my boys, I was joking that I was gonna be a DIYer in my house, and I don't DIY anything.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: And then they're like, boys, my boy said to me one day, they're like, Oh, mom, what was that whole like I'm gonna be a DIY master?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I'm sorry, I became a CEO and said, Okay, I invite you.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm sorry I didn't figure out how to work the drill.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'll get to that.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: But I just I launched, you know, started companies instead.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I yeah, it is true, and I'm proud of that.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: And not only even beyond, I think my family, like the younger women in my family, like the neighborhood, my daughter's friends and my son's girlfriend.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not doing it, but I'm they're just like, wow, I love they're like, you're so inspirational.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: I love that, and I hope that I can maybe not teach, but inspire a future generation of people.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: Right now, I would love to inspire other women that are in my kind of age or circumstances and just say, hey, you can do it.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_04: You can do it.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_04: It's not too late.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_04: You inspire me.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_04: I told you.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_04: We talked to change makers on Amplify, and that can be patients, caregivers, patient organizations, people working in the ecosystem, government, public sector, innovators.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_04: You're a change maker in everything that you're doing.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_04: And on the personal front, thank you for your bravery to share personally everything you were experiencing.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_04: It's one thing to lead a company.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_04: We've all seen those graphs where everybody sees what's above the ground, but people don't always understand or appreciate or know everything that goes below that to support it.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_04: And your bravery to navigate and explain how you manage uncertainty and all the things that drove you to make the decisions that you're at today to be leading to organizations is really incredible.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I just can say thank you for sharing that.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_04: And Marie, what are your thoughts?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I always enjoy a conversation with you, Neilam.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for spending time with us today.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm excited to hear and see what comes next.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_04: And Neilam, we always end on a fun note.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_04: I want to know what are you most excited about in your personal life upcoming over the next little while?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like most excited about just renegotiating my mortgage.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: And hopefully that I get to stay in my house.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: So there's the reality of that part.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm really excited to continue to just grow.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Grow and learn, not size-wise, because that's a whole periodopausal kind of discussion.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not excited about that part.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not excited to grow physically, but I am excited to just grow and be open to what actually this year brings me.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm really excited about.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I think you know what I would say?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: What am I most excited about for this coming year?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited about who I'm going to get to know deeper, who I'm going to meet this year, because the last few years have just been incredible.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: Whether it's reconnecting with beautiful friends like Ursula or meeting new ones like you, Amory, I'm most excited about who's going to come into my orbit.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't that beautiful?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: In 2026.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's the thing that excites me most.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_04: I really appreciate that, Neilam.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_04: And certainly everything you have shared, I think is a testament to why people love the orbit of Neelam.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_04: And popping into it is meaningful and special and incredibly heartfelt and certainly gives a lot of people things to think about.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, professionally within healthcare and how things can be made better and things to change around genetics and data silos, but even around hopefulness as we navigate life and there are challenges that are sometimes unexpected and quite frankly unwanted that we have to navigate through.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_04: And what does that look like?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_04: And how can we work together to make that happen?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: This has been amazing.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: It was a conversation.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: You're absolutely right.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: Very good.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I want to say thank you for today's show.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_04: Today's episode was sponsored by Medlier.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_04: I want to say thank you to our sponsors for today.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_04: And Anne Re, as you can see, I get emotional four times over, but this is just such an important topic.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I think what I always reflect on is the question Neelam always challenges me with asking is why is this happening for me?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_04: And so, what does that mean and how to process it?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's just inspirational.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_04: So, Neelam, thank you for your time today with us on Amplify.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_04: I've really enjoyed this conversation.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is lovely.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is lovely.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for tuning in to Amplify, a podcast powered by Patient Voice Partners.
• 41:11
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• 41:17
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• 41:24
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• 41:28
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• 41:39
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• 41:43
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• 41:49
  SPEAKER_04: Until next time, stay connected.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_04: Your voice matters.