Latest / Profitable Christian Business / Navigating Leadership and Faith: Micah Pritchard on Identity, Success, and Building Eternal Legacy

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Navigating Leadership and Faith: Micah Pritchard on Identity, Success, and Building Eternal Legacy · Profitable Christian Business

• 0:00
  Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Prophet of Christian Business.
• 0:04
  I am so happy to have my friend Micah Pritchard with me today.
• 0:08
  Micah and I have been friends for a while now, although we've never met in person.
• 0:12
  We've had several multiple conversations online.
• 0:16
  I really like what he does.
• 0:18
  uh From a business standpoint, we're aligned a lot on faith.
• 0:21
  We're gonna talk about that quite a bit.
• 0:23
  We're gonna talk about his story.
• 0:25
  Just get ready to meet Micah.
• 0:26
  And with that being said, Micah, why don't you give a little introduction about who you are?
• 0:31
  Yeah, so honored to be here today, Doug, for you, for your audience and just being a part of it.
• 0:35
  Just it's awesome.
• 0:37
  It's so fun.
• 0:37
  So my story, well, we'll get into it a little bit, but at a high level, I am a father of four, aged 18 to almost 15.
• 0:46
  And my wife and I have been married 18 years.
• 0:50
  And so we're old enough to vote, at least in our marriage, which is great.
• 0:54
  And that's definitely like a big piece of it.
• 0:56
  And then career wise.
• 0:57
  Man, I've gone from small entrepreneurial and helping with startups to really large organizations and leading large teams.
• 1:04
  And so it's really interesting to see the path that God has led me through this path.
• 1:08
  It's not a path I would have chosen, Doug, but in that uh through so many different experiences to see where I am now and be able to look back and see all the different ways
• 1:18
  his hand was in place.
• 1:19
  So um it is a lot of fun.
• 1:21
  I'm currently the COO, or I like to like sometimes joke the chief encouragement officer for Service Reef.
• 1:27
  ServiceReef.com is really a platform for helping uh nonprofits, medical teams, as they're sending teams out into the field.
• 1:34
  Our goal is to make it so easy on the logistics side so that they can send twice as many and impact those communities.
• 1:39
  And so it's been a heart and passion of mine for years.
• 1:43
  We started about 12 years ago, but it was always a side hustle, nights and weekends, heart ministry type thing until just about two years ago.
• 1:50
  And so uh we'll talk more about that journey here in a little bit, but it's been fun.
• 1:54
  It's been a lot of fun and it's
• 1:56
  I had some ups and downs and all over the place.
• 1:58
  So it's fun.
• 2:00
  Um, well, I usually dive right in.
• 2:03
  Like you said some things in there that I would like to pick up on, but, um, how long did you say you were married?
• 2:10
  18 years now
• 2:12
  Wow, awesome.
• 2:13
  Awesome.
• 2:14
  Well, congrats on that.
• 2:15
  My wife and I are just past the 15 year mark.
• 2:18
  So we're trying to catch up.
• 2:20
  Yeah, we joked when we hit 16 that our marriage was at least old enough to drive.
• 2:26
  So we were like, OK, like maybe maybe it'll make it.
• 2:30
  Isn't it funny?
• 2:31
  Like, I love that perspective is like, how mature is your marriage, right?
• 2:36
  When you think about it.
• 2:37
  uh And of course, we don't need to make this a marriage podcast.
• 2:41
  But uh how how soon you get God involved in your marriage?
• 2:46
  uh plays a plays a key role, right?
• 2:49
  uh But anyway, let's not go down that rabbit hole.
• 2:53
  Let me ask you.
• 2:53
  uh
• 2:55
  at some point, like it, because, okay, not that we'd go now, but I would say like, as a part of the journey, as you go through this, like God didn't put us there to be in, in on
• 3:06
  our own.
• 3:06
  Right.
• 3:07
  Like he gave Adam a job in Genesis two before he even brought Eve along.
• 3:12
  Like we're, we're told in the separate story, right?
• 3:14
  We have a job before even the fall of creation, before anything else.
• 3:17
  And Adam gets this job to name all the animals, to work through this whole process.
• 3:20
  And there is no one in the world that is.
• 3:23
  Nothing, no other creation, even though it was all good, still nothing for him.
• 3:26
  And whether it's in marriage or in business or in community or small groups or good friendships, leadership can be lonely.
• 3:34
  And so finding that community around you is super important, super important.
• 3:40
  you knowing me know that I'm passionate about all of that.
• 3:42
  So I love that you said that real quick.
• 3:45
  So just a fun question.
• 3:47
  Like, are you a coffee and Bible guy in the morning?
• 3:50
  Are you more into late night study conversation?
• 3:55
  By nature, I am definitely a night owl.
• 3:57
  However, my family of origin, we drink coffee all the time.
• 4:02
  So I will, I will always have it by me.
• 4:05
  And so whether that's early in the morning or late at night, but definitely through time, it's adjusted through kids schedules to be like more morning.
• 4:12
  um But definitely I enjoy that time when I can drop off kids and come back and try to give myself a little bit of time just to kind of like breathe, do some devotion or listen to
• 4:21
  some worship, kind of enter into the day a little bit before I jump on keys.
• 4:25
  Doesn't happen every day, really try to make that part of the routine.
• 4:29
  so a couple questions about coffee and then a couple questions about, maybe one or two questions about energy management here.
• 4:34
  So coffee, uh are you a coffee snob or is it just Folger's Maxwell House?
• 4:41
  I make up for quality with quantity.
• 4:44
  So I don't measure in the cups.
• 4:46
  I measure like in the pots.
• 4:48
  So like, you know, if I get a couple pots in a day, I'm doing good.
• 4:53
  Yeah, so that is funny.
• 4:55
  I'm, we're, my wife and I are a little bit of coffee snobs.
• 4:58
  We went, when we went to Hawaii, one of the highlights of going to that awesome place was going to the coffee farm because we love coffee that much.
• 5:07
  So, and then of course we brought some back with us.
• 5:11
  Well, and that Kona blend and the other things you can get out there, I totally agree.
• 5:14
  Like I don't mind the quality of coffee, but I'm not one to sit and try to perfect it myself.
• 5:19
  I'm like, just hook me up to an IV and let's get going.
• 5:23
  Nice, but much like uh you are as well, we often we've gotten better, but we were often like two pots a day between her and I, oh coffee drinkers were one pot, but we're always
• 5:36
  like, should we make that second pot?
• 5:38
  think we should.
• 5:40
  Well, okay, so little secret behind the scenes.
• 5:42
  I actually have a single serve Keurig here.
• 5:44
  So in those moments where I'm like going like meeting to meeting and I'm like, oh, I don't want to make a whole nother pot.
• 5:49
  I just need a little bit extra today.
• 5:52
  I, you know, so that's an advanced tip there for you guys.
• 5:55
  If you're really into coffee.
• 5:57
  You've inspired me.
• 5:58
  uh Couric in the office is what's needed.
• 6:02
  Yeah, I don't need it all the time, but like it's really nice when you're like, I only got two minutes before my next call.
• 6:07
  Let me just get a cup going and then I'm ready.
• 6:10
  Can we talk about energy management a little bit?
• 6:12
  uh Because we're on the subject of coffee and why we often eat coffee.
• 6:17
  uh You talked about being a night owl.
• 6:20
  I know people have different flows, I guess, for lack of better word.
• 6:25
  I felt like when I was younger, I was more of a night owl.
• 6:30
  But uh I get so much more done in the early parts of the day than I do at night.
• 6:36
  Can you kind of reflect on how your schedule works out?
• 6:39
  how, when you produce the most?
• 6:41
  Yeah, that's a great question.
• 6:43
  And I'll say a book that influenced my thinking on this is At Your Best by Kerry Neuhoff.
• 6:47
  um And that book really helped me because it wasn't so much a time management as much as an energy management.
• 6:54
  And his argument really is you have three to four good hours a day.
• 6:58
  And so whether you're the highest performing leader, the Elans of the world, or you're just a mom or whoever, it doesn't matter.
• 7:06
  You have three to four good hours where you can spend it.
• 7:08
  And so the question really is,
• 7:09
  What are you going to do with that time that you're given?
• 7:12
  And so can you find that time?
• 7:14
  And each of us have a different rhythm when our energy levels are high and when our energy levels are low.
• 7:19
  And yeah, we can take power naps.
• 7:20
  We can do other things.
• 7:21
  Like there's all kinds of science that's supplying that, right?
• 7:24
  Like this says, Hey, this is good stuff.
• 7:26
  But the really is what I find is how many times do I sabotage that good time?
• 7:30
  Right.
• 7:31
  And so yes, I want to go grab coffee, but if that's during my window of green, like, Ooh, should I be using it for that?
• 7:38
  Or should I
• 7:39
  use my yellow times maybe more in the afternoon for connecting with others and doing those things that may still bring me energy and because I'm an extrovert.
• 7:46
  However, in those moments, Doug, how do you leverage that to really drive your business forward is a key piece.
• 7:52
  And so that's a good resource for your folks that's out there.
• 7:56
  just at your best.
• 7:57
  And that's helped shape some of how I look at it and really trying to find those ideal times.
• 8:02
  So in addition to the links that we're going to share for you, we're going to share a link to that book.
• 8:06
  um I want to sit here just for a minute because I think we talk a lot about this on our calls that we have.
• 8:13
  We have a call called the goal getting call.
• 8:15
  And it's all pretty much about goals and time management and energy management.
• 8:18
  uh And you're so right that you need to prioritize.
• 8:24
  Like one of the things that I'm wanting to get better at is I started to get scheduled a lot of meetings in the morning.
• 8:32
  which tend to be a better focus time for me.
• 8:34
  And I'm like, I really wouldn't like to have this meeting at nine o'clock because at nine o'clock is kind of like, I can knock out like half a day's work if I, if I focus from nine
• 8:44
  to nine to 11, right?
• 8:46
  uh But then these meetings, so I've learned, had to learn and until I could get the other parties to, to adjust, right?
• 8:57
  I I'm having to live there.
• 8:58
  So I'm having to, uh
• 9:01
  navigate a little differently.
• 9:05
  Well, and I'd say, yeah, in that space, Doug, like it's not so much that you don't have meetings during that time because, and that's where I'm at too, is a lot of Mondays and
• 9:12
  Tuesdays are taken with a lot of project meetings and other stuff that's already been set up.
• 9:16
  And so I have to kind of like look out ahead a little bit and be like, okay, what does the next two months, three months out?
• 9:21
  Can I start blocking maybe some slots off there to give me that space?
• 9:26
  And then the question is, it's not so much that you have that, like no one can touch it.
• 9:30
  Maybe that's true.
• 9:31
  you're, if that's where you're creating content, if that's where you're finding your sweet spot and you need to do those things, absolutely save it, protect it.
• 9:37
  Right.
• 9:38
  But it could be a really critical conversation that you need to have.
• 9:41
  could be a business decisions.
• 9:42
  Like, Hey, how do we think about where we need to go for strategy planning for 2026 or you're moving into these other places for the next year.
• 9:50
  That's also a space where you like, I know I'm going to be at my best in this window and those kinds of critical decisions.
• 9:56
  Probably I need to have those conversations in that window too.
• 10:00
  Very good point, because what I tell people on that particular call is it's not just grading your tasks.
• 10:05
  We tell them to grade their task as far as importance.
• 10:08
  Like needle movers, how much of a needle mover is it?
• 10:10
  You also need to measure your meetings, right?
• 10:13
  Are your meetings needle movers?
• 10:15
  Are you having a lot of needle mover meetings, or are you just having a lot of little meetings?
• 10:20
  So that's a great perspective.
• 10:23
  Thanks for sharing that.
• 10:26
  Speaking of, as entrepreneurs, we're always
• 10:30
  wanting to recharge, right?
• 10:32
  So what is one way that you like to recharge?
• 10:37
  I like to reach.
• 10:39
  Well, there's lots of different ways.
• 10:40
  I'm in Colorado, so I get a lot of blessing for getting out in nature or taking the kids camping or doing those kind of things.
• 10:45
  But with four kids in the stage of life, we're in a lot of it is kid activities, right?
• 10:50
  It's the soccer and the swim and, you know, like going back and forth to practice or games and that kind of stuff.
• 10:54
  And so there's a bit of a shift that I've taken over the years instead of trying to kind of like, have to go do these things, trying to lean in and go.
• 11:03
  I get one-on-one time with my daughter for 10 minutes.
• 11:05
  I get one-on-one time with my son for a few minutes and pick up in school.
• 11:09
  And so I'm trying to reframe that, Doug, that's been a part of um the journey and the identity piece that's kind of God's been shaping in me um is to try to maximize that time
• 11:18
  and use that.
• 11:19
  But then even though I'm an extrovert, I get energy from being around other people and engaging.
• 11:26
  There's also time.
• 11:26
  I just need downtime.
• 11:28
  I need some quiet.
• 11:29
  I need some space to be able to process.
• 11:30
  And so sometimes just being at the
• 11:32
  park and then either choosing that time to go walk or choose that time to sit in the car and just kind of get a little bit of quiet or decompress from the day.
• 11:38
  um Gives me that option because it used to be that we could do this to and from the commute, right?
• 11:44
  And now so many of us are home.
• 11:45
  I'm like, I found myself really having to shift of like, I can't shift from this role to now being a parent or being a dad or being a husband or being whatever I need to be.
• 11:53
  Right.
• 11:54
  There's no longer that natural built transition period.
• 11:57
  in your days.
• 11:58
  And so that's that's been a struggle for me over time is like, okay, how do I then find that so I can be fully present in the moment?
• 12:05
  That is awesome.
• 12:06
  And I, I, I don't think we've talked about that yet on this, on this show, because there are so many entrepreneurs that now work at home, right?
• 12:14
  There is, there is a benefit of going to the office.
• 12:19
  And because I think men, especially they're, they compartmentalize, right?
• 12:23
  I'm at work.
• 12:24
  This is my workspace and, it's hard to do.
• 12:27
  I think it's harder for men to work from home.
• 12:31
  especially if, if other other family members are there because
• 12:36
  It's just, it doesn't feel like the workspace, right?
• 12:39
  um So I guess where I'm going with this, I think you shared a little bit of it, but do you have any other practical tips that you use um throughout your day to kind of stay focused?
• 12:52
  Yes, uh I mean in part it's it's
• 12:58
  I think it really depends on where you're at.
• 13:00
  And in this moment, you're right.
• 13:02
  Like kids are sick and they all go back to school in the fall and then they become a large Petri dish and everyone's just sharing everything, right?
• 13:08
  And you're like, awesome.
• 13:10
  So really learning to try to like, how do I value where my time is and how do I define what success is and whether it's the energy elements of like at your best and like, okay,
• 13:21
  I can only give enough for three to four hours today.
• 13:24
  And I would say Doug, like if I can riff on this for a second.
• 13:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:28
  I think a lot of times it starts in Genesis one, right?
• 13:31
  And it starts in the space of like, in Genesis one, we find a creating God who creates us in our, in his image, right?
• 13:38
  I guess that's technically two or three, but like in that space, he creates us in his image.
• 13:42
  And then he says, it's enough.
• 13:44
  It's enough.
• 13:45
  And he lets us and then teaches us to do the same.
• 13:49
  And so the question really is, and it's been a struggle and it's been a struggle.
• 13:53
  We'll get into the journey a little bit of my identity and how some of that got morphed, but
• 13:58
  In that space, learning to say like, what is enough?
• 14:00
  And then God, can you do those kind of loaves and fishes moments of like, God, today I got sick kids today.
• 14:05
  I have this today.
• 14:07
  I thought I was going this direction.
• 14:08
  And then all of a sudden something in life hit me upside the head.
• 14:11
  Right.
• 14:12
  And in those moments go, okay, can you take what I am able to give and multiply it?
• 14:16
  Can you take what I am able to give?
• 14:18
  And, would you just let that be enough for today?
• 14:21
  And let me just rest in that, because I think there's always the struggle.
• 14:24
  And at work, it's easy because I can turn it off and it's not even in my purview.
• 14:29
  Right.
• 14:30
  When you're at home, there's always things in your purview.
• 14:32
  And so the question is, like, I go up for a cup of coffee and all of a sudden there's like, oh, well, there's a kitchen.
• 14:36
  you do that, you know, like whatever you need to go do.
• 14:39
  Right.
• 14:39
  So it's staying focused.
• 14:41
  It's staying those elements.
• 14:42
  But then also when those interruptions happen, how do I treat interruptions?
• 14:47
  You know, am I curious about, OK, God, what are you doing in this?
• 14:50
  Or am I like, oh, so angry that like I got to interrupt it again and now I'm not going to get to this thing.
• 14:55
  Okay.
• 14:57
  How, how, what does success look like?
• 14:59
  How do I define what today is?
• 15:01
  And can I just rest in God, whatever I have today is I hope it's enough for you and let him work.
• 15:08
  such a big faith statement in there.
• 15:11
  Um, and everything that you said, like you just like it, that is knowing that when you there's, there's, there's obedience in there too, but, um, knowing that you are, you're
• 15:27
  relying on God, right?
• 15:28
  That those interruptions will happen and you may feel like the pressing weight of projects and work or just
• 15:37
  But God, sometimes we put, we limit God so much is basically what I'm trying to get at is like, we have, we have to, we have this amount of time and we have to get this done
• 15:49
  because again, it's all us.
• 15:52
  Wait, God can make things happen that you have no way of foreseeing.
• 15:56
  ah So yes, thank you for sharing that.
• 16:00
  And really where I want to dive more so though is identity because you've said it several times and uh
• 16:07
  so many entrepreneurs struggle with this when they become entrepreneurs, they think this is who they are.
• 16:12
  I am an entrepreneur above all else.
• 16:15
  ah So is there, I think you alluded to maybe there's some part of your journey that revolves around that.
• 16:23
  Would that be right?
• 16:24
  Yeah.
• 16:24
  Yeah.
• 16:24
  Well, OK.
• 16:26
  So let me let me start with this because sometimes people hear this and they're like, wait, you should have started with this.
• 16:30
  So my first job out of college was actually playing video games.
• 16:34
  And it's something that like, wait, you get paid to do that.
• 16:38
  And I'm like, yep, I did it for three years or so out of college.
• 16:41
  I was an undergrad in psychology and thought I was going to go into family, you know, family systems or marriage therapy or whatever.
• 16:47
  And I was like, oh, and I'm like, anything I really need to learn, I'll learn in grad school.
• 16:50
  Like, whatever undergrad was fun.
• 16:53
  But then I got into working at Electronic Arts, EA Sports, you know, all that and did that for three years and it was awesome.
• 17:00
  It was awesome.
• 17:01
  And yet at the same time, it was a lot of work.
• 17:04
  Like I literally had a sleeping bag underneath my desk because you never knew when the next build would come down or when the next thing would do.
• 17:09
  And you're like, I can't drive 20 minutes home and be back in an hour.
• 17:12
  You're like, I'm just going to sleep.
• 17:14
  Like, so you learned some interesting things and it started to set up my expectation for what the real world was like.
• 17:22
  because it's the first job out of college.
• 17:24
  You're like, okay, of course it's normal to work 80 to 100 hours a week and during peak times, 116 to 120.
• 17:30
  Everyone just does this.
• 17:32
  And I felt rich because I couldn't spend the money because we were working all the time.
• 17:36
  So it was great.
• 17:38
  Fast forward though, it was an entry into a technology world.
• 17:41
  And then as I moved out to Colorado and got in, I have a banking background and so I did banking for a while, then I got into a startup and in...
• 17:51
  in that journey and then went back into FinTech and did mobile app development and then went into cybersecurity.
• 17:56
  And I'd say like during that journey, it's interesting that I had a lot of different opportunities to learn and grow and really kind of get into leading teams and doing
• 18:06
  different things, which was awesome.
• 18:07
  And it was a lot of fun.
• 18:09
  And yet I would caution us on with identity, be careful where we look for validation, right?
• 18:15
  Because as you get promoted, as you get um more and more pretty soon,
• 18:22
  Like I found myself just to use the Fintech as an example, I started kind of more as an individual contributor, kind of came into a manager role, then got another team, then got
• 18:30
  another team and got another team.
• 18:31
  And pretty soon before I knew it, I had like global teams.
• 18:33
  had, I don't know, 86, 90 people under me.
• 18:35
  And so God just kept blessing it.
• 18:37
  And I was like, awesome, this is so cool.
• 18:39
  Like it's awesome.
• 18:39
  And I get to lead leaders and I get to do all these things.
• 18:41
  And I did that for 11 years.
• 18:44
  And yet all this time really kept boundaries as being really difficult.
• 18:50
  And this is where kind of back to that marriage thing.
• 18:52
  Sometimes our spouses can see it before we do.
• 18:54
  Right.
• 18:55
  And I say workaholism in the especially in the United States and the Western mindset is one of the few accepted addictions along with caffeine.
• 19:03
  Right.
• 19:03
  Like we it's OK.
• 19:05
  If you drink too much, if you gamble, you're going to get fired.
• 19:08
  You work too much, you get promoted.
• 19:09
  And so in that space is I found myself like moving up through the ranks within the company and getting more and different challenges.
• 19:18
  People were
• 19:19
  coming to me and it would feel good.
• 19:21
  Right.
• 19:21
  Doug, like, man, my guy can bring any problem.
• 19:23
  Like even if it's not in your team, you'll figure a way to solve it.
• 19:26
  And like, let's look cross organizationally.
• 19:28
  like, there was a lot of fun and God prepared has given because part of the truth there is God wired me that way.
• 19:36
  Right.
• 19:36
  Like I, there is a wiring, there are natural gifts and talents that he's given me to be able to do that.
• 19:42
  And yet I was misplacing where that validation was coming from and not looking at it from him.
• 19:48
  I was looking at it from others and through that space and through no intention, like young kids, all that stuff, you're so sleep deprived.
• 19:54
  You don't even remember know which way is up, right?
• 19:57
  So, but in there, we realized we needed to change.
• 20:00
  And like I said, my wife realized it like, okay, you need to change.
• 20:03
  So I went over to a cybersecurity company here locally, which would have had a lot less travel.
• 20:08
  But the problem is I tried to change scenery without really addressing the underlying problem, right?
• 20:13
  And so I changed scenery.
• 20:15
  first year, it's great.
• 20:16
  Like everything's going wonderfully.
• 20:18
  Then a new boss comes in and it for whatever reason, it did not work out.
• 20:22
  And I would say like, I've never had that situation in my entire career, but it almost felt like I was at cross purposes with God.
• 20:28
  Right.
• 20:29
  And it's easy to point fingers at the toxicity that are present leadership styles, you know, name your thing.
• 20:35
  Right.
• 20:36
  As I reflect back, I think really God was starting to remove some of those elements that I had replied to.
• 20:43
  that I had relied upon for so many years.
• 20:46
  Right.
• 20:46
  And he starts to pull this back and pull this back.
• 20:48
  And all of a sudden, nothing was easy.
• 20:50
  All of a sudden, nothing, you know, nothing seemed to make sense.
• 20:54
  HR was coming to me to ask me what was going on.
• 20:56
  And I'm like, I don't know.
• 20:57
  If you figured out, like, let me know, because I'm open.
• 20:59
  Like, I want to make this work.
• 21:02
  And in that spot, like felt like, all right, am I going to go somewhere else?
• 21:05
  And you go through the normal application process and get to the final interview of one or two folks and just never worked out.
• 21:11
  So I'm like, OK, God, you're
• 21:13
  You're in this somehow, but it was a really hard year, Doug.
• 21:16
  It was really, really hard.
• 21:18
  And how do I protect my teams from some of the toxicity I saw or was experiencing?
• 21:22
  How do I do these things?
• 21:24
  And I just had to really rely on him.
• 21:26
  And it was, it was a daily thing of God.
• 21:30
  I need to have my identity in you and not in whatever this is.
• 21:34
  Like I, whatever these other voices are that are coming in around and through, they're trying to define who I am.
• 21:41
  like, no God, need you.
• 21:42
  in this and every single day it was, I just need to release this to you, God, and I need to accept what you have for me today.
• 21:51
  And it was it was a hard, hard time.
• 21:54
  And just to kind of wrap that up when I got into that, daily, who who do you say I am?
• 22:00
  Who do you say I am?
• 22:01
  Right.
• 22:02
  Like and really trying to focus on that time.
• 22:06
  Then you get on that call late at night with the senior leader and it's HR on board and I'm like, oh, this is it.
• 22:11
  And I'm like, yeah, we're actually having a big event tomorrow and we're going to release like 35 % of the engineering team.
• 22:16
  Right.
• 22:17
  And I'm like, all right, how many of my guys are, yeah, how many of my folks are impacted?
• 22:20
  They're like all of them.
• 22:21
  I'm like, well, you don't need me anymore.
• 22:23
  Right.
• 22:23
  So, and you work in tech and you've been, I've been on both sides of that table.
• 22:27
  Right.
• 22:28
  um But I was tempted to jump into another role and just like, okay, this is who I am.
• 22:34
  I'm a senior leader.
• 22:34
  Like, let me just jump into something and let's keep going.
• 22:36
  And God really used some godly folks in my life.
• 22:40
  And to help guide me to, you know, there's a new direction and something else.
• 22:45
  so that's where service reef is something I create, helped create 12 years ago, but to step into that full-time role and then, Oh man, Doug, that led to a whole new thing
• 22:55
  because my identity had been around success, driving profits and profitability and making teams effective and maximizing whatever we had to get problems done.
• 23:05
  And now all of a sudden you're in a more solopreneur type environment.
• 23:10
  where it's like, okay, it's me and a few, you know, amazing folks, but they're part time.
• 23:14
  And how do we work into that?
• 23:17
  And how do I trust took a big pay cut, like all this kind of stuff, like, God, okay, if you're in this, you've got to make it work.
• 23:25
  And two and a half years later, he's still making it work.
• 23:28
  And I'm like, okay, but I'm still wrestling with some of the themes that are coming through that.
• 23:33
  man, thanks for sharing all that.
• 23:34
  So uh you had mentioned previously about definition of success and I do want to get there, but uh before we go there, uh I want to say this because this was coming to mind too.
• 23:50
  God has us as the men as being providers and sometimes we take that as the, we start to make that the idol, right?
• 23:58
  uh That, oh, we start to beat our righteous chests.
• 24:01
  uh
• 24:02
  I'm striving, I'm gonna, we become workaholics because we're wearing that mantle, right?
• 24:07
  That I'm the provider and I'm just gonna work and work and work.
• 24:11
  I think we're missing the whole point.
• 24:12
  Yes, we're supposed to be the providers, but there's more to that than just the job, right?
• 24:19
  So I just, I would love your insights on that.
• 24:25
  It came in counseling one night when my wife and I are walking through some stuff during this journey in last two years, Doug.
• 24:31
  it's and I would say like with that community, like find those that were are willing to help guide you along that path.
• 24:37
  Right.
• 24:38
  Whether they're other business leaders, others that have been there before, older, younger, like it doesn't matter a lot of times, just that extra perspective in the in a
• 24:45
  godly community help.
• 24:46
  And I saw around me, Doug, that.
• 24:52
  there were a lot of friends that I had and people that would that like basically made epic vacations because they're trying to make up for the time they couldn't spend.
• 25:01
  Right.
• 25:01
  When you're working 70, 80 hours a week at nights and weekends or trying to support global teams, especially because you're like, I got to be up at 8 p.m.
• 25:09
  for a call and up at 4 a.m.
• 25:10
  the next morning for a call.
• 25:11
  And you're like, how do you make this work?
• 25:13
  But within that space, what I realized is we have a focus of.
• 25:18
  Hey, I'm going to work.
• 25:20
  I'm going to work hard and then I'm going to retire and I can finally stop working, which is a totally backwards theology.
• 25:25
  We can get into that in a second.
• 25:26
  But, but in that process, I was realizing like, oh, I had this vacation.
• 25:30
  Then we try to do epic vacations because I'm trying to make up for the fact that I'm not in the dailies.
• 25:35
  Right.
• 25:36
  And I had to reject that.
• 25:38
  I had to be like, no, no, no, no, no.
• 25:39
  I need to be a dad, a husband, a father, a friend who can be there in the dailies.
• 25:46
  And if that's going to be who I am to have those everyday ripples, then I have to say no to some things in order to be able to be present.
• 25:54
  And I think that's where kind of early on we talked about like, how do you handle interruptions?
• 25:59
  Like to me, that was a key indicator for myself.
• 26:01
  When I got angry, when I was upset that I was getting interrupted, it was a heart issue of what was going on that was like, man, something's not right here.
• 26:11
  Like I...
• 26:12
  Why am I putting so much value on this when I should be able to be interrupted and be able to see, okay, God, what are you at?
• 26:17
  Right.
• 26:17
  And that's, that's been a journey.
• 26:19
  It continues to be a journey.
• 26:20
  I'm not there entirely Doug.
• 26:23
  but it's, don't know if that answers the question or speaks to what you were thinking, but
• 26:27
  I think it answers it very well.
• 26:30
  We have more than one role.
• 26:32
  And I think so many of us grab that provider champion uh role and that turns into a workaholic environment where you're sacrificing your other roles, right?
• 26:46
  uh And you just can't, that's a bad road to go down.
• 26:53
  And yes, however, this is the environment we're in, right?
• 26:58
  If you get on an elevator with six other people that are sick, guess what the chances are of you getting off that elevator being sick, right?
• 27:03
  So like, this is the culture, this is where we are.
• 27:06
  And so the question really is, are we open to rethinking things in a different way?
• 27:12
  Right?
• 27:13
  Are we open to evaluating, God, really, why are you here?
• 27:17
  Because all the things, like, this is the whole thing about being Achilles and the story, like,
• 27:22
  there's always a flip side.
• 27:23
  Your strength is also your weakness, right?
• 27:26
  The, that, God has given you to do these things.
• 27:30
  However, you know, you're starting a business, you're wearing multiple hats to, I'm leading a team and doing these things, whatever it is, God has given you that talent and
• 27:38
  that ability and those skills and that experience.
• 27:41
  And so I would say in that process, like invite him into that on a regular basis, on a daily basis, invite him in because otherwise it can get that's like one small way.
• 27:51
  to hopefully help from things getting too far off course.
• 27:55
  That's so good.
• 27:56
  And I really am anxious to get to the whole meaning of success.
• 28:02
  And there's a question about how do you build something that's eternal?
• 28:06
  But I'm still not ready to go there because um teams, right?
• 28:11
  Because this is something you have a background in.
• 28:14
  The contrast of that hustle culture, like let's talk about a leadership perspective, that hustle culture, we work and we work and we work to...
• 28:24
  leading teams with a more of a well-rounded life.
• 28:27
  Can you speak on those two variances?
• 28:31
  Yes, that is a, I like to use the word tension, right?
• 28:34
  There is a tension.
• 28:36
  It's not like there's a right or wrong.
• 28:38
  We often try to find balance, right?
• 28:39
  And I'm like, eh, balance almost things like if you find it, then you're there.
• 28:43
  And I'm like, no, every day there's a tension, right?
• 28:46
  And as a leader, especially if you're leading teams, you are paid to do a job and that is to get the most out your team to provide the most value to your business.
• 28:56
  Absolutely.
• 28:57
  And
• 28:58
  One thing that I would say, though, goes a little bit below that is really, I love C.S.
• 29:04
  Lewis's quote, and I won't try to quote it here, but he basically says, you never meet mere mortals.
• 29:10
  Everyone you meet would either be something you'd be tempted to worship or you'd be terrified for.
• 29:16
  We are all eternal beings.
• 29:17
  Right.
• 29:17
  And so if you come into leadership with the idea that every single person on your team, regardless of ideology or what they think or how they believe or what their backgrounds
• 29:27
  are,
• 29:27
  Every single person is a unique creation of God, reflecting His image.
• 29:33
  We are all made in His image and He wants us all to come into His kingdom.
• 29:38
  And so in that process, if I believe that this person, even if I don't agree with them, still at least has that intrinsic God given image inside of them, I'm going to treat them
• 29:49
  differently.
• 29:50
  They're not just something I can step on or move on to the next thing, but it's like, okay, well, what does this person need?
• 29:56
  And so in that leadership role is really looking at it from two lenses.
• 30:00
  um It's looking at, yes, there's a business lens, but I always was like, I told my folks like you're a contractor, like your job right now, your full-time contract is with this
• 30:12
  company and to get the most.
• 30:13
  And this is where you're at, but you need to think of it as how do I leverage and grow and keep their best mind?
• 30:19
  You know, their future self in mind, even as you're governing them now.
• 30:23
  And so.
• 30:24
  My heart was always to be like, Hey, let me help you understand and come to a deeper understanding of how God has wired you.
• 30:30
  Now.
• 30:30
  I couldn't always say that in every role I was in Doug.
• 30:33
  Um, but that was the underlying message, right?
• 30:35
  Like that was my underlying philosophy.
• 30:37
  And as the opportunity arose, absolutely.
• 30:39
  I would say it, but like the goal is I want to get the best Doug, if you're my employee, man, I want to make sure that we get you in the right seat on the right bus at the right
• 30:48
  time, because I want you to thrive.
• 30:50
  I want you to go.
• 30:52
  I want to have connection with you in five and 10 years and be like, man, look at how you're changing the world.
• 30:55
  That's awesome.
• 30:57
  Right now for this period of time where our paths are crossing, we are at this company and we need to have some goals.
• 31:02
  And yes, there's some headaches along the way, but my, my view is more eternal for that person.
• 31:09
  And how do I help them on that journey a little bit?
• 31:12
  And so that was kind of how I helped manage that tension between, okay, the business needs this and yes.
• 31:18
  I need to push some people sometimes to get them to do things they're not comfortable with because I need this.
• 31:23
  And yet at the same time, how do I encourage them along that path to become who they really need to be?
• 31:29
  So I have this image, this leadership image of pouring into and extracting from.
• 31:37
  How much are you pouring in before you're trying to extract from?
• 31:42
  uh Because if all you do is extract, that person will be drained.
• 31:49
  You need to continue to pour in in order to get the best out of them.
• 31:56
  Yeah.
• 31:57
  Well, and I'd say like a lot of times it's, it is not, it's not rocket science, but it takes initiative, right?
• 32:06
  It's, it's your stand.
• 32:08
  It's your one-on-ones.
• 32:09
  It's how do you act in meetings?
• 32:10
  How do you honor their time?
• 32:11
  It's ensuring that you're taking the time with them on a regular basis, whether weekly or biweekly.
• 32:17
  I wouldn't really go further than that to just check in.
• 32:20
  Like, even if like, Hey Doug, we don't have anything to talk about today, but Hey, for five minutes, just tell me real quick.
• 32:25
  How's your weekend?
• 32:25
  How's life?
• 32:26
  How's it?
• 32:26
  You know, like in this virtual culture, you miss that opportunity to just go like, hey, I catch them on the way to the office, you know, to go get more coffee or I catch them on
• 32:33
  the way out to lunch or you miss some of those um organic moments.
• 32:38
  So you have to just be more clear about creating it virtually that says, hey, this is something on our calendar.
• 32:43
  I'm not going to miss it.
• 32:44
  Like we're I'm always going to have this at least on a periodic basis with you to help pour in.
• 32:49
  Right.
• 32:50
  Yeah, I think a really good example is the company my wife works for.
• 32:54
  She was employee number one.
• 32:55
  um And the culture, I don't know if it was just organically built or there was, I think there was a mix of organic and a lot of intention, right?
• 33:05
  And I just see how they pour into people um and how their company has grown from that and how well people work together as a team and individually.
• 33:18
  uh
• 33:19
  I really think so much has to do with the culture that was built and that whole pouring in before you, but not just extracting out, right?
• 33:28
  So.
• 33:31
  Well, and, and Doug, one of the thoughts that comes to mind is, okay, thinking of the, on the spiritual level too, God has given us our own kingdoms, right?
• 33:38
  Our own domains, our own chances to kind of like try this out.
• 33:41
  And he's maturing us along the way.
• 33:43
  Like I was reading John 15 today, right?
• 33:45
  Like I'm the van vine, like remain in me, right?
• 33:48
  So the, idea of if we have to remain in him, there's a chance that we don't, right?
• 33:52
  Like, so how do we do this and remain in him in a regular basis and yet bring those things where he's given it under his control and authority?
• 34:00
  that space because there's times when you're working in a hard culture, like it's awesome that your wife has like, here's a good culture.
• 34:07
  We can shape it from the beginning.
• 34:08
  Right.
• 34:09
  And that, mean, the oldest quote is culture beats strategy or each strategy for lunch.
• 34:14
  Right.
• 34:15
  Like, I mean, that's it does.
• 34:17
  And yet, even if you're a leader in a dark culture, like where it's not going well around you.
• 34:22
  Okay.
• 34:22
  The question is, how can you be like, how can you do this?
• 34:24
  And I'd say like, bring it under his authority, bring him into this process, even if it's not
• 34:29
  publicly or visible, just you personally, if this is a team that's been given to you, bring it in and start praying for him, start thinking through these things and just try to
• 34:37
  be the light in that dark culture, right?
• 34:40
  Because that's where that really shines is, you know, folks are like, well, I want to be on that team.
• 34:45
  okay.
• 34:46
  Well, why?
• 34:46
  Right?
• 34:47
  Like you can start to create the culture change.
• 34:50
  You can't influence everything else around you.
• 34:52
  Like there's too much chaos, but within this small realm, this is what I can control.
• 34:55
  This is what I can influence.
• 34:56
  Right.
• 34:57
  Yeah, that makes me think of this too.
• 35:01
  Like you could, you have a choice, right?
• 35:03
  You could be the light or you could give into the darkness.
• 35:06
  ah You join the dark side.
• 35:10
  And then it just, so the choice is to be the light.
• 35:14
  You can't create transformation unless you're the light.
• 35:17
  You can be that one speck of light in the darkness that starts to spread, right?
• 35:21
  Otherwise you're allowing just the darkness, which is crazy.
• 35:25
  ah
• 35:27
  yeah, and I'd say just start start with yourself in that process, like really work to.
• 35:31
  And that's part of where that identity piece and some of those other things come, Doug, is like I had to focus like I couldn't be that to the rest of the team.
• 35:39
  If I was such in a place where I was getting pulled in on so many different side tangents and toxicity and other things, I couldn't be that light to others.
• 35:47
  Right.
• 35:48
  Yeah, practical steps on that, being in the word, right?
• 35:52
  Being in prayer.
• 35:53
  uh We just had a Bible study this morning and there was a big talk about that, about the need for continuous prayer.
• 36:00
  Like God tells us to be in continuous prayer, to make it a uh habit, right?
• 36:05
  That is part of our lives.
• 36:07
  And the question came up, like in our busy lives, who has the time, some of us do, to devote 30 minutes to an hour of devotion, right?
• 36:18
  But I say that's God's time.
• 36:20
  God will give it back to you over and over if you are just obedient.
• 36:26
  it's not just prayer then.
• 36:30
  Holy Spirit was with you the whole time.
• 36:32
  So prayer can be that one minute that you need to pray and get that clarity right from God.
• 36:38
  So I don't know if you have any insights around that, but just the practical steps to kind of keep being in that place.
• 36:45
  Yes, I would say like one thing my wife and I have figured out with four kids and all the schedules, our best time to connect is like 8 to 8.15.
• 36:53
  We've dropped the kids off.
• 36:54
  She's still on her way to work.
• 36:55
  Right.
• 36:56
  And we just call and we just and it's not a time for logistics, although that sometimes slips in.
• 37:01
  It's really just a time to like, all right, how can we pray for each other?
• 37:03
  How can we do these things?
• 37:04
  Because that's the most like and you're like 15 minutes.
• 37:08
  Can you really like that's not a lot of time.
• 37:10
  And yet that's
• 37:12
  That's the max.
• 37:12
  We're like, everything else is chaos.
• 37:14
  Right.
• 37:14
  So we found different patterns within our own schedule to bring that in.
• 37:19
  And so I'd say like, yeah, for your folks, like reevaluate your whole, how much time do you play on your phone?
• 37:24
  How much time do do these things?
• 37:25
  There's probably time, even if it's not a, even in a 30 block, when 30 minute block, what about the five or 10 minutes before you get out the door to drive somewhere?
• 37:34
  Right.
• 37:34
  And then my natural tendency is to surround myself with noise.
• 37:38
  Okay.
• 37:39
  Put on the podcast, put on a book, put on like,
• 37:42
  Instead of like, okay, what if I spent five minutes praying and then I'm driving across town for 20 minutes, but I actually spent it in silence and reflect on what I just did.
• 37:49
  Right?
• 37:49
  Like that's good time with God in the car, like inviting him into this.
• 37:53
  And so get creative, have fun with it.
• 37:55
  Cause there's lots of ways to do it.
• 37:57
  Yeah, yeah, I love that.
• 38:00
  We're finally there.
• 38:01
  We're finally at the question that I'm going to ask that I've been anxious to ask that I think is going to be super valuable.
• 38:07
  uh So we do a fill in the blank question.
• 38:11
  First, we're not actually going there.
• 38:13
  We're going to do the fill in the blank question first just to make sure that we cover that because it's included oh in every single episode.
• 38:20
  Your fill in the blank question is, my faith in Christ has taught me that success is really about blank.
• 38:30
  My faith in Christ has really taught me that success is really about things that are eternal, not temporal.
• 38:38
  I think in that space, there are so many times I get spun up, Doug, about things, whether are we profitable?
• 38:48
  And can, like, where's this going to come?
• 38:50
  And they're talking about another tension, a key tension in the last two or three years has really been this tension between trust and fear.
• 38:58
  Can I trust the story that God's writing in my life, in my business, in my family, or am I going to be afraid?
• 39:05
  And you could look at it as scarcity versus abundance mindset.
• 39:09
  could look at like, there's a lot of different ways to look at it, but in that key, one of the things I look at is like, how many times does God tell the Israelites to remember,
• 39:17
  remember, remember, remember.
• 39:20
  And when we look back and we remember all the times he's shown up.
• 39:24
  And then I look forward and I'm like, Ooh, how am going to make payroll in three months?
• 39:28
  or two months or what if this doesn't come through or this client backed off and now I've lost that contract or, know, like, and all the spin up of that is there's like, okay, God,
• 39:36
  there's fear if I look too far ahead, but you keep calling me to remember to trust the story that he's writing in and through your life and through your business.
• 39:44
  um And he's called you there for purpose.
• 39:47
  And so I would say like, I get caught up a lot in things that are temporal things of this world, you know, like, what do we do this?
• 39:55
  How's this going to work?
• 39:55
  What is it?
• 39:56
  And I'm like, no.
• 39:57
  Like I need to think like I live in two worlds.
• 40:00
  How do I live eternally?
• 40:02
  And to me how that boils down a lot of times, it's just that trust versus fear.
• 40:08
  Nice.
• 40:09
  That is so good.
• 40:12
  I going to use an example.
• 40:16
  I lost my train of thought.
• 40:19
  So recently, not that long ago, there was a point where I lost a pretty big client.
• 40:24
  And I was like, oh, man, I stressed about it.
• 40:26
  But lo and behold, two weeks later, I get two or three clients.
• 40:29
  It was two or three clients at once.
• 40:31
  And I was like, out of the blue, right?
• 40:33
  a referral from another client that I hadn't even talked to in a while and just someone hitting my podcast, I think this podcast was like, Hey, I saw what you do and I would love
• 40:46
  for you to do some work for us.
• 40:48
  So I think that go but just go back to that trust is like, it's that faith thing you what you you just got to trust that God's going to provide, right?
• 40:58
  um And not
• 41:00
  Do not be anxious, do not fear.
• 41:02
  How many times is that said in the Bible, right?
• 41:04
  But yet it's so hard for us oh to carry that and not have that anxiety.
• 41:12
  uh
• 41:14
  And I would say, Doug, like we're human.
• 41:17
  It's natural to have fear.
• 41:19
  It is natural to have these things.
• 41:21
  Like even Psalm 23, even as I walked through the valley of the shadow of death, God, you are with me.
• 41:25
  And I think what I've learned a lot in the last couple of years is I don't need him so much as like delivering me or doing these things as much as just I need his presence
• 41:35
  today.
• 41:35
  I just need him here in this moment.
• 41:38
  And when I lose that, can I trust that God, you're more work in this situation than I am?
• 41:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 41:44
  know.
• 41:45
  I remember reading that a while, you know, like the Lord knows what you need before you need it.
• 41:48
  And that word is like, no, I like, he like deeply knows he experientially knows what you're going through.
• 41:55
  And he already knows that before you even bring it to him.
• 41:57
  And so it's like, Oh, okay, God, can I rest in that today?
• 42:02
  Right.
• 42:02
  Can I just rest in the fact that you just, you know what I'm going through?
• 42:05
  You, you feel it with me and you're here in the moment.
• 42:11
  Yeah.
• 42:12
  So here it is.
• 42:13
  What is the secret to building something that lasts eternally?
• 42:17
  You've alluded to it a few times.
• 42:21
  Yeah, I think to build something internally really requires partnering with God daily.
• 42:26
  Use to use those skills and talents and abilities and experiences that he has given you.
• 42:33
  Those are a gift.
• 42:35
  And with those traits and personality that is written in your God given image, he wants you to walk through with that.
• 42:42
  so treat yourself, treat others with that kind of understanding that what you do.
• 42:47
  has impact in eternity.
• 42:49
  And so whether you're a doctor or a lawyer or a fortune 500 leader or an entrepreneur that you're just starting out, God has given you that passion.
• 42:57
  God has given you that.
• 42:59
  And that is a reflection of who he is and his creativity and his desire for impacting the world in a positive way.
• 43:07
  And so lean into partnering with him and being curious about where he's going.
• 43:12
  Because you're dangerous.
• 43:14
  Like as a leader, you are dangerous and
• 43:17
  Be dangerous for good.
• 43:18
  He's given that to you.
• 43:19
  Like go, go make a difference.
• 43:21
  And even if it doesn't feel like it's in a kingdom world or a faith-based thing, he's put you into this role, into this thing for a purpose.
• 43:29
  And so if you can partner with him daily, um even the most mundane things can have eternal ripples.
• 43:36
  Yeah, that is so true.
• 43:38
  The small things, the mundane things.
• 43:42
  Yeah.
• 43:44
  So good.
• 43:45
  uh Can we talk about legacy for a second?
• 43:49
  Because I think you stepped into that just a little bit with that.
• 43:54
  And often, entrepreneurs, we tie our legacy to our business, right?
• 44:00
  Which is, to me, is an idol, right?
• 44:03
  That's not our true legacy.
• 44:04
  So oh I would love your insights because we're talking about building something eternal, right?
• 44:09
  What is your take on leaving a good legacy?
• 44:17
  I think we talked about the elevator we all live in, right?
• 44:21
  And the culture, the environment in the Western world that we live in is one of success.
• 44:25
  And I would say, I would very strongly encourage you to redefine what success is.
• 44:31
  And I think a lot of times we think of profitability.
• 44:35
  think of like, I think of it like, Hey, I'm working at Service Reef, even tell my wife last night, like I could retire in this.
• 44:40
  Like, this is something I could do for decades.
• 44:43
  Like I would love it.
• 44:44
  I would love it.
• 44:45
  And yet,
• 44:47
  I don't know how culture is going to change.
• 44:48
  I don't know how technology is going to change.
• 44:49
  I don't know how these things are going to happen, Doug.
• 44:51
  And so the question really is not, okay, is my success the legacy I leave and can I pass it on or could eventually sell a business and move into, you know, like, okay, our goal
• 45:01
  oftentimes is like, man, if I just had a nest egg, I could stop working and stop doing this thing.
• 45:07
  And I think a lot of times we buy into this mindset of work is bad and work is actually part of our God given desire.
• 45:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 45:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 45:14
  alluded to earlier, it's there in the garden even before the fall, right?
• 45:18
  What are we going to do in eternity?
• 45:19
  If it's just sitting around and singing songs, that's probably some people's idea of the other place, right?
• 45:23
  So like, we're not just in a never-ending church service.
• 45:27
  We have a purpose.
• 45:28
  We have a goal.
• 45:29
  God has wired you in a certain way to make a difference in this world.
• 45:33
  And so the success is not so much, hey, what is the end result?
• 45:39
  The success is what is the journey.
• 45:41
  And I think redefining success in that way creates the ability to create a legacy, Doug, because in that I'm not so focused.
• 45:49
  What's the American dream?
• 45:50
  Every kid could tell you, okay, my kids want, my parents want me to do well in high school so I can go to college so I can get a new job.
• 45:56
  I can, you know, may go out and make a difference in the world.
• 45:58
  Right.
• 45:59
  I mean, that's just kind of the American mindset and that's been really challenged in the last five to 10 years socially, but it's also like, what is that going to be?
• 46:07
  And the question is really like, how often do we say, you know what, be a missionary, be an entrepreneur.
• 46:12
  Drop out of high school, like, because there, there's things that God has for your kids that God has for others there that may have a huge impact.
• 46:21
  And so the question is, can we teach them instead to live with God, to partner with him in a regular basis instead of just kind of taking the world's definition of success?
• 46:29
  uh I have a big retirement.
• 46:31
  Now I can retire and cruise the world.
• 46:34
  Right.
• 46:34
  And you're like, yeah, how many people get to that point?
• 46:36
  And then when they, what is it?
• 46:38
  Most business owners like die within three years of selling their business.
• 46:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 46:43
  The stats are amazing.
• 46:44
  And the, because the question is we put our identity in this.
• 46:47
  so the question you ask is like, okay, legacy, what do I want it to be in five years?
• 46:52
  Spend some time.
• 46:53
  What do you want it be in 10 or 25 years?
• 46:56
  Take some time and go, okay, God, what do, when I'm old and sitting on a rocker on my front porch, what do I want to remember?
• 47:03
  Right.
• 47:04
  And talk to that future self and go, Oh, probably this isn't going to be as important, but
• 47:12
  Are my kids still talking to me?
• 47:14
  Do I have good relationships?
• 47:16
  Has my marriage been something that was life-giving over this time?
• 47:21
  Those are the things that really linger.
• 47:22
  And so I think as you look at with legacy from that perspective, um just as even as a thought exercise, it starts helping you redefine what success is even in the day to day.
• 47:34
  Yeah.
• 47:36
  I bring this up, this is probably the fourth or fifth time that I've brought this up in conversation, just because it's so fresh.
• 47:43
  What's happened recently, and because it's pertinent to what you just said.
• 47:49
  A man that was only 31 years old, I think a lot of people would be proud of the legacy that he left because what it was that he exactly said, he just wanted to be remembered for
• 48:01
  sharing God's word.
• 48:03
  or God's light or something along those lines.
• 48:06
  And I think he did a great job of that.
• 48:10
  Right.
• 48:10
  ah So I just think that that that really challenged me.
• 48:16
  Right.
• 48:16
  Personally, that how can I that to be remembered legacy wise, I want to be remembered for being a champion for God.
• 48:26
  And uh all the others, as as he said, everything else is temporal.
• 48:31
  Right.
• 48:31
  So oh
• 48:34
  What's the best thing that you could be remembered for is shining God's light in this world, right?
• 48:39
  Well, Matthew 6, I think it's 33 says like seek first his kingdom, right?
• 48:45
  And then all of this will be given to you.
• 48:47
  And so the question is we often flip that, right?
• 48:49
  We're seeking everything else first and then going like, okay, God, I'll fit you into the margins.
• 48:53
  And so it takes trust to really like flip that on its head and really take them at his word.
• 48:59
  It says, God, I'm going to seek you first.
• 49:01
  And then I'm going to trust the rest of this to come about because you know, right?
• 49:06
  Mm hmm.
• 49:07
  And just to go back to what you're saying about, I think you said something early on and then you kind of talked about a little bit, the idea of retirement, right?
• 49:15
  I don't I don't I love what I do.
• 49:18
  I can't see myself retiring.
• 49:20
  oh And we have a purpose, like you said, and many people even not even after selling their business, but even just after they stop working their job, oh they they
• 49:33
  lose their sense of purpose unless they pick something else up that gives them purpose.
• 49:39
  So I guess just dive a little bit deeper um on your thoughts on retirement.
• 49:46
  It is a developing concept to me, Doug.
• 49:49
  And I would say that I'm not always great at it because I get caught up in it too.
• 49:54
  Right.
• 49:54
  So um we talked about kind of more the theology of work and why work is there and why we keep working.
• 50:01
  Right.
• 50:01
  And it's, it's not in that space, but I'd say a couple of things that are a little bit different, a different way of looking at it.
• 50:07
  I'm a football fan.
• 50:08
  I enjoy fantasy football.
• 50:09
  I enjoy all the sports.
• 50:11
  I'm one of the few people you may have ever met that actually tore their left ACL.
• 50:15
  Four times.
• 50:16
  like sports have been good.
• 50:18
  Like, of course, you know, each successive story got less and less interesting, but um you know, like in that space, like I love sports.
• 50:25
  It's a lot of fun.
• 50:26
  And when you're we're in football season now, and I'd say like a lot of times your first 20 years are kind of like that first quarter, right?
• 50:32
  You're coming out, kind of playing around like, all right, what is the rules?
• 50:35
  How do we kind of go?
• 50:35
  What kind of game is this going to be?
• 50:37
  Second quarter, you're trying to make a couple of quick adjustments.
• 50:39
  You can't do a lot, but you're kind of building towards halftime, which is about 40.
• 50:44
  Right.
• 50:44
  And then you're suddenly like, okay, now we're half time.
• 50:46
  Let's make some adjustments.
• 50:47
  What is really those things that are going to be, you know, we've created a little bit of a game plan.
• 50:51
  We've kind of had some success on some things.
• 50:53
  Okay.
• 50:54
  How do we leverage that you come out in the third quarter, right?
• 50:56
  And you've made that adjustment, but where the game is won and lost is often in that fourth quarter.
• 51:01
  And I would say one of the things that's key Doug is in that 60 to 80, you are not done.
• 51:07
  Like one of the biggest fallacies I had and God totally hit me upside the head with a two by four last year is.
• 51:13
  I just kind thought I was done.
• 51:14
  Like, God, I'm good.
• 51:16
  Like I have a lot of lessons.
• 51:18
  I feel like we're walking closely together.
• 51:20
  Like I'm good.
• 51:21
  I'm done.
• 51:22
  Like I don't need to, I've kind of plateaued.
• 51:24
  I'm as good as I'm going to be.
• 51:25
  Right, Doug?
• 51:26
  And he's kind of like in his own way was kind of like, really?
• 51:30
  Like, you think that?
• 51:31
  Like, and I'm like, oh, well, I guess you're right.
• 51:34
  Like there's always more, right?
• 51:35
  There's always more that we can do and dive in.
• 51:37
  And I would, I just strongly encourage like our worth and our definition is not always in what we do.
• 51:43
  As we get older, we can't produce as much as we did in our twenties and thirties.
• 51:46
  It's just scientifically proven.
• 51:49
  And yet our brain has already been rewired to be more focused on wisdom and balance and maturity and driving those things.
• 51:56
  so.
• 51:56
  um Leverage that and trusted like God had a purpose in this science is catching up finally, but God had a purpose in all of this.
• 52:05
  I'd say how, wherever you find yourself in the first, second, third, fourth quarter, you're not done yet.
• 52:12
  Even John 15 today, I'm the vine, I'm trimming.
• 52:15
  He's, he's in that process of maturation.
• 52:18
  Will you open up and say, okay, God, would you just father me?
• 52:20
  Would you just mature me?
• 52:22
  Would you, I invite you into whatever this is.
• 52:24
  This could be a really hard thing.
• 52:26
  Health or job or whatever.
• 52:28
  Right.
• 52:29
  And you go, God, I don't know what to do, but just, invite you into this and just invite him in and let him mature you in that process.
• 52:36
  Doug, I think it was just such a good thing because he'll, he'll guide you kindly.
• 52:41
  wherever you find yourself.
• 52:43
  Yeah, that's good.
• 52:47
  Mentorship, right?
• 52:48
  I'm thinking that like we, you are doing a disservice to the people.
• 52:53
  Like you've gone and gained all this experience and wisdom throughout your life when you start to get in that third and fourth quarter.
• 52:59
  If you're not pouring that back into the people that are coming up behind you, uh you talk about something that you could really do with your third and fourth quarters.
• 53:08
  uh That's probably one of the best things that you can do.
• 53:13
  Yeah.
• 53:13
  And look around you.
• 53:14
  There's in your church, in your community, at your kids' sports events, there's always someone that is at some point just a little bit off of where you're at.
• 53:24
  And you can help each other in that process too.
• 53:27
  Like look for those opportunities that God brings up.
• 53:30
  Yeah.
• 53:31
  Well, we haven't talked hardly at all about Service Reef.
• 53:35
  And I want to, I want to touch on that for sure.
• 53:37
  So tell us a little bit about Service Reef and how you help ministries and all those types of things.
• 53:44
  Yeah, yeah.
• 53:46
  So um I'll even tie it into kind of the identity piece a little bit, because around 2013, I was finishing my grad school, uh had just had our second child.
• 53:56
  Career was starting to bloom.
• 53:57
  All that stuff.
• 53:58
  I got laid off and I tore my ACL for the second time.
• 54:01
  So it was just like one of those moments of like I was about to slide into a deep depression.
• 54:05
  Right.
• 54:06
  And in that space, I got laid off and it was like, my gosh, what am going to do?
• 54:10
  And it was really a shake up for.
• 54:12
  um
• 54:14
  for my marriage and for everything else.
• 54:16
  But in that space, it gave me six months of total free time to like, yeah, search for another job.
• 54:21
  But that's when we launched Service Reef.
• 54:23
  We were already, it was already in process, but it needed that final push to get back.
• 54:27
  And so looking back now, 10, 12 years got allowed for that.
• 54:30
  Not only then to set me up for another career that I did for 11 years, which was awesome, but in that space, like really focus and get it launched.
• 54:38
  And what we found out early on, so what is Service Reef?
• 54:40
  Service Reef is really an online platform to allow churches, non-profits, schools to help run their teams and trips better.
• 54:48
  We really want to be in this mobilization space.
• 54:50
  How do we mobilize people to get out into their communities and out around the world?
• 54:54
  And we found that leading a team, whether it's a 10 person medical team or a bunch of students to go to Australia or to do a VBS camp or whatever, to lead that, takes about 150
• 55:04
  hours of coordination effort.
• 55:05
  between the fundraising, the tasks, the forms, planning, all that kind of stuff.
• 55:09
  Our goal is to cut that by about 75%, cut it down to about 50 hours or so, um so that that organization can do twice as many trips the next year, right?
• 55:19
  We wanna help impact whatever community you feel that you're needing to go serve.
• 55:22
  We wanna be able to do that twice.
• 55:24
  And so we've had schools that started with like five student mission trips and then they went to 10 and now they're at 15, right?
• 55:30
  Or churches that are, hey, we're...
• 55:32
  max out, we can only do this amount number of many, maybe five or 10.
• 55:35
  And then the senior pastor is like, man, I feel like a calling like God's really wanting us to expand out.
• 55:39
  Can we do 20?
• 55:41
  And they're like, no, there's no way.
• 55:43
  And they're like, wait, actually, I think we could like, because our whole goal is to let technology power and automate a lot of the process.
• 55:50
  So that way you can grow as God leads you into the areas that he's already led you.
• 55:56
  So it's fun.
• 55:57
  It is, it is a blast.
• 55:58
  get to work with Kingdom Minded.
• 56:00
  both sending agencies, those are like trying to send full-time missionaries out into the field, as well as churches and nonprofits and medical agencies that are trying to make a
• 56:08
  difference in specific communities.
• 56:11
  And so just a quick story, like the flooding in Texas that happened a couple months ago.
• 56:15
  And we had a client that was one of the first ones on site coming in for a crisis, trying to help clean up the community.
• 56:21
  And they were the first ones into some of these areas around Texas.
• 56:24
  And they were organizing 1,200 volunteers, local volunteers that would come out to clean to help, know,
• 56:30
  check on cars to get debris out of the way, et cetera.
• 56:34
  And the first day, they typically have done this and they have two volunteers that were 12 to 15 hour days handling all the questions, right?
• 56:42
  First day they had 15 questions.
• 56:44
  They tweaked a couple of things.
• 56:45
  The next day they had zero.
• 56:47
  The volunteers thought the system was broken because they were like, how do we do this with 1200 volunteers?
• 56:52
  There's no way.
• 56:54
  nope.
• 56:54
  That's where technology comes in, right?
• 56:56
  A good messaging, adapting, tweaking, you can run those kind of things.
• 57:00
  And now all of sudden, you're volunteer for free to go do something else, right?
• 57:03
  So that's really the heart, and kind of where ServiceReef falls in.
• 57:07
  So I have a couple questions around that.
• 57:11
  Is it just software?
• 57:12
  Is there consulting?
• 57:13
  Is it done for you?
• 57:14
  Is it done with you?
• 57:15
  oh I know that's several questions in a row, but.
• 57:19
  Yes, we definitely tailor it to what the organization or the church needs.
• 57:23
  Right.
• 57:23
  And so there's some churches that have been running this for a while.
• 57:26
  They kind of have their process down.
• 57:28
  And so in those cases, we do have some onboarding or some one time kind of consulting Doug to just help them translate what they've done into the system.
• 57:34
  um But for the most part, it's a monthly subscription and they just kind of pay for the number of trips they need active at any moment.
• 57:42
  um And so they cycle through often we have like a church now that's kind of spinning up because they're like, Hey, we want to do like 20 local serve events, like just get out
• 57:50
  into our community.
• 57:51
  It's really easy to organize and we save a ton of volunteer time because we then handle all the notifications and reminders and stuff.
• 57:58
  And so there's, there's a lot of ways to like leverage it.
• 58:01
  We even have a school that's using it for field trips this year.
• 58:03
  Like that's not really our modus.
• 58:06
  Like we're not like, let's get field trip forms, but that was what they were really struggling with.
• 58:10
  Sure.
• 58:11
  It's just form collection, right?
• 58:12
  And so if we can automate that from the parents and make it easier for the staff, we can help in that area.
• 58:18
  Nice.
• 58:19
  So where do people, I think I know the web address, but I'm gonna let you say, where do we wanna send people to find out more about that?
• 58:27
  Yeah, so definitely you can go to service reef dot com all one word service reef or you can go to service reef dot com slash Mike to find out more about me or how to engage in
• 58:38
  that process.
• 58:38
  um I'd love to meet you and just if I could be an encouragement to any of your listeners through that process, I'll have a link there to you can reach out and put some time on my
• 58:47
  calendar.
• 58:47
  And um I'd love to just get to know you and help wherever your journey is.
• 58:53
  Awesome.
• 58:53
  uh I ask one last question um on every episode because I feel like there's often something that's left unsaid that is on your heart.
• 59:05
  what words of wisdom, encouragement, what do you have to tell anybody that's listening?
• 59:12
  Yeah, I would say wherever you are at this moment, dear listener, like God is with you in that moment.
• 59:23
  And he has given you the talents and the skills and the abilities and the experiences to be able to make an incredible difference in this world, in your family, in your community,
• 59:34
  in your work.
• 59:35
  And I would say like, my encouragement would be just be curious, be curious and say, God, what are you up to here?
• 59:41
  When things come aside, just
• 59:42
  Ask him first, God help me interpret what this is because he wants to guide.
• 59:48
  wants to mature.
• 59:49
  As John 15 says, he wants to mature you and prune you into um who you need to be and nothing you've been given as an accident.
• 59:57
  He is writing a story in your life.
• 1:00:00
  And the question really that all of us have is can we trust that story that he's writing?
• 1:00:04
  Can we trust in the story, trust in the author that is writing that?
• 1:00:08
  um And yeah, just blessings on that for you guys.
• 1:00:13
  Awesome.
• 1:00:13
  Well, thank you, Micah.
• 1:00:15
  ah This has been amazing.
• 1:00:16
  So many good, valuable nuggets shared.
• 1:00:19
  ah Thank you, listeners, and until next time, keep moving forward.
• 1:00:30
  All right, I think that was good.
• 1:00:32
  One thing, is it, it's still recording.
• 1:00:34
  um One thing at the end, like, I was like, I would.