Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 386- Man About Town

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 386- Man About Town · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hm, he is that to freeze chill, choke me, tim
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  Speaker 1: be made from me and chose me, slap cock Dan
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  Speaker 1: chocer mad me and Joe bebe joke me, be be
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: timper me and choke you. Slip docky chobd sp don't
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: sack cho SASA show kill you.
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  Speaker 2: Man?
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  Speaker 3: What's up? Everybody?
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  Speaker 4: Welcome into the Lone Cooming Podcast is his episode number
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  Speaker 4: three hundred and eighty six. I got a special guest
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  Speaker 4: here tonight, mister Bill Brown is with me here.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Bill.
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  Speaker 3: How you doing.
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  Speaker 4: I'm doing well, fantastic, fantastic. We had a couple a
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: couple of audio issues at the beginning. We're a little late,
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  Speaker 4: but uh, the main thing is that it's working now
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  Speaker 4: and we're here.
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  Speaker 3: And uh.
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  Speaker 4: A couple of weeks ago, I had Matt Doubted on
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  Speaker 4: the show, and I know, you guys, he's like your
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: nemesis and the tippid thing, right.
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  Speaker 2: He's uh, I like that because uhi, which is uh
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  Speaker 2: I wouldn't.
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  Speaker 5: I know.
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  Speaker 2: I know I'm exaggerating.
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  Speaker 4: He was a little worried about me having you on,
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  Speaker 4: and uh, I was like, you know what, it's not
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  Speaker 4: gonna be that kind of show. I got you know,
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  Speaker 4: for those who don't know, you know, I think you
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  Speaker 4: believe in the h official story conclusion that Oswald.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I don't want, but you know, let me say, yeah, oh,
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  Speaker 2: and I am in the Murderer and you can't be.
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  Speaker 3: If you just read this book, right. I hear you,
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  Speaker 3: I hear you, I hear you.
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  Speaker 4: And we'll get into all that, but I first want
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  Speaker 4: to because you know, I've had I've had Fred Li
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: went on the show, Steve Rowe, Scott Maudsley. You know,
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  Speaker 4: I'm friends with a lot of a lot of you guys,
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: and I like having those guys only because you can
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: have a conversation with them. You know, we're out here
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: to bang heads and yell at each other, and I
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: hate these debates things because they never go anywhere and
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  Speaker 4: you know, you're not going to change anybody's minds and YadA, YadA, YadA.
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  Speaker 3: But I do like to have a conversation, and that's
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  Speaker 3: what I'm hoping we can have here tonight.
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  Speaker 4: So first, just give everybody a little bit of a
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: background on you and how you got interested in the case.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, what led you down the path that you're on
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  Speaker 2: now and.
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  Speaker 3: To the conclusions that you do have now?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I uh, it was uh my junior year and
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  Speaker 2: I was studied Hall. We got to go to the library.
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  Speaker 2: I was in the where the history way, but accidentally
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: came they and I started started looking look in the
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  Speaker 2: reading through it was great. Pulled me in in and
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  Speaker 2: uh checked out that reading. You know, instead of paying
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: attention to my class work, I'm reading Jim Bishops to
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: day Kennedy was shot. Did we lose the audio? No,
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  Speaker 2: we're still here.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: Somebody said we had a little echo.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I had had, but I was gonna let it go.
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  Speaker 2: But that's good that it's gone. So it's good now.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I fixed it.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. So I was reading the day Kennedy was shot
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  Speaker 2: by Jim Bishop, got pulled in, and then after that
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  Speaker 2: I just couldn't get my hands on enough, you know,
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: reading on the trail of the assassins Jim Marris crossfire.
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  Speaker 2: So that's how I got hooked. And then it was
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  Speaker 2: back in two thousand and eight when I joined my
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  Speaker 2: first Internet forum regarding discussing and debating the Kennedy assassination.
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  Speaker 2: And after about two years or so, I kind of
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  Speaker 2: got pulled into I just I found myself discussing and
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  Speaker 2: being more interested in what happened in Oakcliff more so
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  Speaker 2: than you know, what happened in Dealey Plaza. Not that
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  Speaker 2: I wasn't interested in the Kennedy assassination, because I am,
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  Speaker 2: but I've gravitated towards the tip of shooting and the
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  Speaker 2: capture of Oswald for whatever reason, I just I found
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  Speaker 2: that more interesting. And you know you play the games
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  Speaker 2: where Hey, if you could time travel back to November
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  Speaker 2: twenty second in nineteen sixty three, you know, where would
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  Speaker 2: you go? And a lot of people say I would.
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  Speaker 2: I would go behind the fence, or I would be
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  Speaker 2: up in the stipers nest I would I would be
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  Speaker 2: at tenth and Patton. I'd want to know what the
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  Speaker 2: conversation was between Tippett and, in my opinion, Oswald. I
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  Speaker 2: could say Tippit in his killer, but what made tip
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  Speaker 2: it get out of the car, and what may tip
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  Speaker 2: it even pull over in the first place? You know,
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  Speaker 2: I want to know those things.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, And I know just from talking to you
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  Speaker 4: in the past couple of weeks you just recently got back.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, you'd like to take a lot of trips.
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  Speaker 3: To Dallas and even New Orleans, and you were just
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  Speaker 3: in New Orleans, right right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I went down with with five other buddies and
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  Speaker 2: we spent four and a half days down in New Orleans.
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  Speaker 2: We were chasing Oswald around New Orleans. Yeah, going to
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  Speaker 2: all the Oswald sites, you know, and thanks thanks to you,
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  Speaker 2: you furnished me with the address of Guy Banister's office
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  Speaker 2: in Jack Martin's not not Guy Banister's office, but his
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  Speaker 2: residence and also Jack Martin evidence. So yeah, we you know,
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  Speaker 2: we went to places like the International Trademark where Oswald
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  Speaker 2: was captured in the black and white film footage passing
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  Speaker 2: out the leaflets. You know, we went to that corner
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  Speaker 2: right there, and you're able to line up the background,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: which those buildings across the street in the background are
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  Speaker 2: still there today. So it's kind of neat to be
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  Speaker 2: able to know that, you know, Lee Oswald stood right
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  Speaker 2: here where I'm standing passing that leaflets. You know, we
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  Speaker 2: were kind of nerding out like that for four and
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  Speaker 2: a half days.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, because all that stuff's kind of right close together there,
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  Speaker 4: you know, with St. Martin Canal Street and where Bregnier's
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  Speaker 4: shop was, and.
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  Speaker 2: The little little incident with Carlos Spring Air and then
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  Speaker 2: we you know, we went to the Riley Coffee Company,
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  Speaker 2: and you know, we even did the small things like
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  Speaker 2: the print shop which is right across the street from
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  Speaker 2: Riley Coffee where Oswald had his leaflets printed up. You know,
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  Speaker 2: we we pretty much covered it all. The house on
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  Speaker 2: Magazine Street and Napoleon Branch Library, you know all that stuff.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so his house on Magazine Street, that was that's
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  Speaker 4: kind of like a hike away from all the Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It was a little it was a little bit. I'm
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  Speaker 2: sure he had to take a bus. I think it was.
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  Speaker 2: I think I actually measured it. It was like eight
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  Speaker 2: tenths of a mile to nine tens of a mile
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  Speaker 2: from you know the sites, you know, like five point
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  Speaker 2: forty four Camp Street and Riley Coffee and all those places.
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  Speaker 3: Well, we know he took a bus, right, Judy Baker
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  Speaker 3: told us that, Well, yeah, well that makes it.
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  Speaker 2: Lord.
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  Speaker 3: At least we have something in common, right, So let's
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: see here, So.
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  Speaker 4: Getting back and just from you know, we're friends on
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  Speaker 4: Facebook and I see you post stuff all the time,
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  Speaker 4: and you've met some very interesting characters involved with the case,
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  Speaker 4: you know, like Ruth Payne, Bill Frasier, James Levell, tell
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  Speaker 4: us a little bit about meeting some of these people
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  Speaker 4: in real life and how that is.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, we'll start with Jim Levell. So this would
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: have been the summer of twenty nineteen, so it was
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  Speaker 2: about three months before he passed away. I was in Dallas.
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  Speaker 2: There was a group of us. I think there was
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  Speaker 2: about eight or ten of us down there this particular time,
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  Speaker 2: but myself and Frank Battleson and Dave Ledbetter we got
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  Speaker 2: there a day earlier than everybody else, and we went
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  Speaker 2: to visit Jim Levell because Dave Ledbetter knew Jim Levell,
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  Speaker 2: knowing for like twenty years, maybe even longer than that.
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  Speaker 2: We brought him a barbecue sandwich and we were in
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  Speaker 2: his living room from five point thirty till almost midnight,
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  Speaker 2: so it was over six hours. And we spent the
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  Speaker 2: first hour talking about the assassination, and then we spent
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  Speaker 2: the next five hours talking about his career and the
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  Speaker 2: cases that he had seen and worked over his career.
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  Speaker 2: He seemed more thrilled to talk about his career, more
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  Speaker 2: so than justin Kennedy assassination. But yeah, we were in
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  Speaker 2: there for about six hours and then Frank Battleson bought
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  Speaker 2: the station wagon that Ruth Payne gave driving lessons to
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  Speaker 2: Lee Harvey oswald In, and he bought that station wagon.
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  Speaker 2: I think the station wagon was put up for auction
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  Speaker 2: and somehow another Frank ended up buying it. And through
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  Speaker 2: buying that station wagon, he was put in contact with
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  Speaker 2: Ruth pain and so he actually developed a relationship with Ruth.
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  Speaker 2: And then the Truth Is The Only Client came out
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  Speaker 2: in September of twenty nineteen, and the maker of the film,
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  Speaker 2: Todd Quait, he paid for Ruth to fly to Dallas,
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  Speaker 2: because she was living in Santa Rosa, California, about an
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  Speaker 2: hour north of San Francisco. So we flew he to Dallas,
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  Speaker 2: and Frank and I and Dave Ledbetter and another fellow
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  Speaker 2: ed Murray that we were we were Ruth's transportation for
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  Speaker 2: those four and a half days that she was in Dallas.
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  Speaker 2: So I got to write around in a minivan for
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  Speaker 2: four days with Ruth Payne and that that was pretty surreal.
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  Speaker 2: And then yeah, and then in November of twenty three,
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  Speaker 2: for the sixtieth anniversary, the UH the Museum, the the
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  Speaker 2: Irving Music, the Irving Library.
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  Speaker 1: UH.
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  Speaker 2: They because Ruth was given a speech with Thomas Mallin,
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  Speaker 2: who wrote Missus Paine's Garage. So once again they they
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  Speaker 2: paid for Ruth to fly in and put up at
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  Speaker 2: a hotel. So we stayed at the same hotel and
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  Speaker 2: Ruth told told the people from the library that hey,
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  Speaker 2: if I come in, I want these guys to be
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  Speaker 2: my transportation, you know. So that was pretty cool that
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  Speaker 2: she was asking for us, And so we drove her
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  Speaker 2: around for four more days. And uh that was during
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  Speaker 2: the anniversary back in twenty twenty three. And then uh, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: so I was in November. I'm sorry. I was in
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  Speaker 2: Alice last November, and I was able through Dave Perry,
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  Speaker 2: who I've known and talked to for a few years now,
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  Speaker 2: I was able to secure a dinner over pizza with
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  Speaker 2: Frank Battleson, Dave Perry, and Bill Fraser. So for two hours,
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  Speaker 2: I got to have pizza with Bill Fraser.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so wow, that's pretty awesome.
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  Speaker 2: Pretty I've also met I've also met and talked to
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  Speaker 2: Bob Jackson for a couple of hours one on one.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: And for those who don't know, Bob Jackson was in
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  Speaker 2: the motorcade in the in one of the press cars
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  Speaker 2: and also he took the famous photo of of Ruby
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: shooting Aliswald, which he won the Pulitzer Prize for that.
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  Speaker 2: So I was able to spend one on one with
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  Speaker 2: him for a couple of hours. That was back in
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: two thousand and eight for the forty fifth anniversary. Yeah,
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: I've been lucky, lucky with that stuff. Yeah.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: I had Paul Abbott on the show.
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: He wrote a book about the the Oswald shooting in
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: the basement, and we were talking and researching for the show.
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: You know, I was reading The Jack Bears. You know,
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  Speaker 4: he'd missed getting that photo by like right, wanted him
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: for the rest of his life.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, and you got to think that
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  Speaker 2: they were so close, like you just said, milliseconds, and
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  Speaker 2: they weren't allowed to leave the basement for a while.
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  Speaker 2: And these weren't digital cameras, you know, they didn't know
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  Speaker 2: exactly what they captured on films, so they both had
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: to wait for almost two hours before they could even
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  Speaker 2: go back to their respective papers to see exactly what
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  Speaker 2: they caught on film.
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  Speaker 5: You know.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm sure when Beers developed his photo, he probably
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: was ecstatic and think I just won the Pulitzer and
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, Jackson's like, nope, I did.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, man, that that would haunt me too.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: You know, By the way, one of the things we're
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: gonna you mentioned Paul Abbot. One of the things we're
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: going to talk about in the next hour, hour and
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: a half, however long we're going to do this, and
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: I have all night, so but one of the things
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: we're going to discuss is the fact that Matt doubt
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: That likes to call me out for my time trial
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: that I did with Matt well, Paul Abbott was with us.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: It was three. It was me, Matt dout That, and
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  Speaker 2: Paul Abbott. We were doing the time trials.
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: Oh really okay, yeah, cool, yeah he uh he sent
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: me some things about, you know, the time trials and numbers.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: But we'll get there. We'll get there.
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  Speaker 4: So I did a show a couple of weeks ago,
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: and we were kind of looking into some things and
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: I tried to look at things differently and try to
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: come at things a little bit differently sometimes and just
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: rehashing the same old, the same old, same old. And
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  Speaker 4: you know, we heard, you know, part of the lore
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  Speaker 4: for so long has been that well Tippett was sitting
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  Speaker 4: at the Gloco station for ten minutes, and so and
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: so and so and so solemn Tippitt went to the
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: Top ten record store and you know, did this and
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  Speaker 4: did that, and he pulled this guy over, and he
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: did that, and he did that. So you know it,
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: and kind of looking for some kind of documentary evidence
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: that these events actually took place instead of just firsthand
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: eyewitness accounts, if you will.
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  Speaker 2: You know, some of these people in the interviewed at
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: the Gloco station, for example, they didn't even talk about
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: the about seeing Tippet. This was a couple of year,
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: year and a half two years later, they don't even
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: talk about seeing Tippa. They talked about, you know, Jack
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Ruby used to come in here, you know and get gased,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: you know, things like that. So why didn't they mention
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Why did't they mention Tippet? This is a year I'm
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: not saying the Gloco thing did not I'm not saying
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Tippitt wasn't sitting at the Gloco, But why did they
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: tell the story right away? Why did they wait a
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: couple of years to tell that story? So it's it's
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: got hard to write.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: Back through this little book that Ramparts put out is
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: where it first appeared in nineteen sixty seven. That was
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: the story, right, right. So I went back and tried
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: to find some documents and I found the one you're
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: talking about from uh Shorty JB. Shorty, uh Lewis Lewis, Yeah,
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: and it was it was it was dated from January
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: sixty four. It wasn't a year after, Okay.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: So when he when he first mentioned Tippet, now.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: He didn't mention tipp it at all.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: That's that's my point. Yeah, Yeah, My point is so
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: right away he when I said a couple years later,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't mean originally. What I'm saying is when he
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: was interviewed originally, which is what you're talking about January
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: sixty four, he doesn't mention tipp it. Why not I
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: mentioned tip at that time. My point was, he doesn't
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: mention tip it until a couple of years later. That's
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: what I was getting at, right.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I agree with you. I agree with that that
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: that doesn't make sense.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: And you know, he mentions in that document, the FBI
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: document when they talk to him, and the one we're
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: talking about here where he doesn't mention tipp it, he
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: mentions one of the other guys that's always been involved
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: in this story, but not the other one. Of course,
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: there's there's two other people the Volkman's right there, a
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: married couple, and he took a picture on the other
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: side of the underpass.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: And when I was talking to Matt, I was like,
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: you know, if you're driving by, you know, going thirty
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: forty miles an hour, and you look over and you
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: see a cop car at a gas station, how.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: Are you really seeing you know, what the what the
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: number on the car is, and who's sitting.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: In it, and why are you really paying attention to that?
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: You know? Yeah?
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: How sure can you be that that's JD.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Tippett?
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: So you know that that was always odd to me.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: The thing about the Glocos siding though it doesn't regarding
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Oswald's guilt or lack of no matter which side you
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: sit on, I don't really think that that changes anything
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: one way or the other.
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, So when you take these three instances, say,
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: the Glocos station, the Andrews thing, And speaking.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Of the Andrews thing, I was going to say, not
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: to interrupt you, I'm sorry, but real quick while I
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: was thinking of it, we're talking about how would you
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: know that was tipping. Why would you pay attention to that?
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: The tip itt was the officer sitting in. So the
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: William Andrews story, the guy, you know, the guy pulls over,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: you know, the cop gets out and runs back and
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: he says he notices the name plate and it says
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: tip it. I mean, come on, you've got a police
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: officer running up to you and looking at your back.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: The last thing you're looking at is his name plate,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: which by the way, is like a quarter inch high
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: and two inches long. You know.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: Well, on the other half of his story is Roscoe White,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: which doesn't help.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: What he's trying to not even talking about roscille Waite.
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: So you know, so I'm thinking, hey, what are these
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: things that we think that are part of the lore,
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: you know, the top ten record store thing. What if
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: none of these ever happened? Because the time is another thing.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty one. They don't hear about eighty one. So
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: let me ask you, you know, is it document?
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: They came out December thirteenth, but it wasn't from anybody
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: that worked there.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: He was relaying a rumor.
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: He didn't want his identity given out, and he was
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: given the rumor that Oswald had been in the store
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: in the morning buying a ticket to the day park thing,
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: and then he came back in and tip it in him.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: Were there at the same time.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Right, And maybe something as simple as that is what
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: sparked Dubb Stark and Luis Cortinez in nineteen eighty one
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: to tell this story. Perhaps here's the thing. Stark and
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Courtinis waited until nineteen eighty one to tell this magnificent
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: story of Tippet rushing in, going past everybody getting on
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: the phone, dialing a number, waiting for an amount of
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: time long enough to hear seven or eight rings, gets
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: no answer, hangs up and back out, speeds off. Here's
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: the thing, though, in an area the size of oak
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Cliff by nineteen eighty one, you know, sixty four to eighty,
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: I would be willing to value that JD. Tippet's name
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: is more legendary than that of John Kennedy. Just if
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: we're talking about just an oak Cliff. And why would
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: they wait eighteen years or seventeen years to tell this,
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: this this magnificent story. It doesn't make sense. And if
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: you're okay with it, Rob, what I'd like to do
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: and we can go whatever direction you want. But what
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I would like to do is a couple of things. One,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: I'd like to show that Oswald could get to tenth
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: and Patten in time to shoot Tippet around one fifteen
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: one sixteen. And I would also like to discuss the
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: witnesses actually okay, where they were and what they said
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: they saw, whether they felt like it was Oswald or not.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: And the third thing is the evidence against Oswald. Those
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: are the probably the big three that I would like
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: to discuss.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: Here tonight, because, like I was telling you, any about
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: these things with Tippet, does it matter if they actually
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: have or not, because this is pre I mean, it'd
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: be nice to know Tippitt's actual movements. And we do
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: have the Dallas police logs, but there's problems with those.
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: I don't know how much we can trust them or
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: how much you know they're open to interpretation. Let's say
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: you know, at least the ones that I've heard, well,
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: you know, I can tell you different versions of the
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: police logs that have been put out.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: I've listened to the actual tapes in real time from
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: twelve thirty to one fifty. When one fifty is when
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Ozal was arrested. And that one fifty one fifty one
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: is when Gerald Hill gets on the police radio and says,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: you know, you know, we got the suspect. We're heading
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: heading uptown. I listened to him in real time for
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: an hour and twenty minutes, and there's there's there's when
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: you do that, there's nothing suspicious.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: They were releasing different versions because they weren't exactly clear
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: what the warr Commission was looking for, and they were
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: just being more precise with each from one release to
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: the next day, were being more precise. I don't think
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: there's a problem with the police tapes, and I'll tell
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: you so.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: I understand what he's saying. I mean, I don't know.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: So as far as getting Oswald to tenth and patent
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: in time, okay, Yeah, the Secret Service and the FBI,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: they reconstructed Oswald's steps with the help of Cecil McWaters
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: and William Whaley and David Bellen was in on this
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: as well, and they were trying to determine the absolute
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: earliest and this is the important part. They were trying
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: to determine the absolute earliest that Oswald could have reached
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: the rooming house. Okay, and now This isn't Tienth and Patton.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: This is just reaching the rooming house. And based on
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: mcwater's statement of where it was that Oswald boarded the bus,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: and we know Oswald boarded the bus because he had
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: mcwater's very specific bus transfer on him and mcwater's said
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: he issued the transferred only one woman and only one man.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Oswald walked about seven blocks east. This is after it
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: leaves a depository, and U mcwater says, so I gave
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: him a tran so I gave her a transfer. Talking
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: about the lady, I gave her a transfer and opened
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: the door, and she was going out, and the gentleman
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: had I picked up about two blocks back, asked for
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: a transfer and got off at the same place in
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: the middle of the block where the lady did. It
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: was the intersection near Lamar Street. It was near Poidus
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: and Lamar And that's we'll see what mcwater's testified to it.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: So they concluded based on what mcwater's told them, along
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: with the Secret Service agents in the FBI agents actually
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: walking and timing the route, it was an average of
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: six and a half minutes from them to walk from
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: the front steps of the depository to that point where
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Oswald got on mcwater's bus, and so therefore we have
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Oswald boarding the bus around twelve forty. Now this is
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: based on Oswald leaving the front steps of the depository
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: at twelve thirty three, okay, and after being on the
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: bus for no more than so mcwater said that he
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: was on the bus for about four or five minutes,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: that's how he worded it. So how long do you
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: how long do you accept that Ozwad was on the bus.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: But if we're trying to see the absolute earliest Oswald
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: could have reached the boarding house, we're gonna say four minutes.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: So Oswald gets off the bus at Lamar and.
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: Elmstreet Depository at twelve thirty three, Yes, within two minutes
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: of the year three.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's encountered in the lunch room by Baker right
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: about about ninety seconds after the assassination, and the Warrant
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Commission determined that he went out the front door around
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: twelve thirty three.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: Okay, Well seems okay.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, So I mean if he goes okay, so we'll say,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: if he goes out the front door at twelve thirty three,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: then he's getting on the mcwater's bus at twelve forty
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: and McWaters has him on the bus for four or
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: five minutes, So right now we're gonna call it four
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: minutes only because I'm trying to see if it's possible
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: for Oswald to have gotten to Tienth and Patton in time.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: So we have Oswald leaving the bus around twelve forty four.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Oswald then walks to three to four short blocks over
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: to the Greyhouse station where he boarded Whaley's cab, and
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: this has Oswald entering the cab at twelve four. It
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: was a four minute walk. They then with Whaley, they
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: reconstructed the cab ride from the Greyhound and we know
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: where it was that Oswald boarded Whaley's cab out front
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: of the Greyhound station and he drove to the intersection
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: of Beckley and Neely. Whaley stated that he dropped Oswald
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: off at Beckley and Neely. Oswald got out of the
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: cab just north of the intersection he crosses the street.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: They concluded using a stopwatch that the cab ride took
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: five minutes and thirty seconds, So we have Oswald exiting
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Whaley's cab between twelve fifty three and twelve fifty four, okay,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: and then still using a stopwatch, they concluded that it
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: was a five minute and forty five second walk from
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: the point Oswald exited the cab to the rooming house.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: So how does this correlate to what you guys did?
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, I'll read that to you next, SEUs I wrote
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: down my time trial results. So I think Oswald gets
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: to the rooming house twelve fifty nine and early and
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Roberts testified. Now, she gave many, many descriptions of how
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: long Oswald was back there in his room. A few minutes,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: not more than three or four minutes, or you know,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: things like that. But those are all figure of speech.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: But one thing that she said rob that was not
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: a figure of speech was she said that he was
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: back in his room just long enough to grab a
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: jacket and put it on. So how long does it
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: take you? And have you been You've been inside the
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: rooming house? Right, No, I didn't, Okay, I'm right. So
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: it's a very tiny room. It's almost like it was
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: a big closet at one time. It's a very small room.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: She said that Oswald was back in his room just
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: long enough to grab a jacket, and put it on. So,
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, and this is only my opinion, and
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: I could be wrong, but my opinion is Oswald's back
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: in that room for not more than a minute, because
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: it doesn't take more than a minute to grab his jacket,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: and of course he grabbed his revolver in the bullets.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: So I have Oswald around, let me ask.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Question real quick, yes, sir, okay, So the shirt that
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: Oswald is arrested in.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, that ugly brown, brown arrests shirt, that's what I
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: call it.
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, nobody puts him in that shirt at work that day.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: So and he also said, I believe to Fritz that
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: he changed clothes when he went back to the rooming house,
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: and they did find his some dirty clothes, dirty trousers,
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: and another shirt freshly worn. So if he did change
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: his clothes and and his at least changed his trousers,
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: maybe he kept his t shirt on, added a shirt,
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: then a jacket, got his gun.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: That adds a little bit of time, you know.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: But let me ask, so let's lose Let's use some
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: logic here. Why would he go in and change his clothes?
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Why is he going to go in and change clothes?
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: But what's the reason for that. Can you explain why
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: he would be in the back back there in his
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: room changed dusty.
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: And dirty and he was a little dainty boy and didn't.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Clean clothes to the movie theater or yeah maybe I
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: don't know, Okay, I don't. I don't believe he changed clothes.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: I believe he just went back there and grab a jacket.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Now here's the thing. So, I mean, you know who
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Mary Bledsoe is, right, his previous landlord. Yeah, so so
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: you She said that other Oswald's coworkers never put Oswald
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: wearing the shirt that day. See, I don't really know
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: anything about that. I've never heard that before. But what
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: I do know is that Mary Bledsoe was a former
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: landlady of Oswald, of the apartment that he rented on
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Marsalists before he ended up moving over to Beckley. She
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: was on the bus that mc waters was driving, and
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: she said that Oswald was on the bus and she
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: noticed she recognized him because he rented a room from
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: her previously. And she noticed that the sleeve, one of
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: the sleeves had a hole in the elbow, and that
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: brown a rest shirt does have a hole in the elbow.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: So you know, you can do with that information what
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: you want. But Mary Bledsoe says he saw Oswald on
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: the bus and she said that the shirt that he
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: was wearing had a hole in the elbow. The browner
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: rest shirt does have a hole in the elbow, and
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: which may have.
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: Not been put there until he was arrested at the
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: Texas Theater, you know, roughed up a little bit.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: And yeah, who knows, Yeah, who knows when the hole
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: was there. But I'm just telling you about Mary Bloodsoew
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: testified too, So yeah, yeah, I know. So in my opinion, okay,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I think Oswald gets to the roominghouse twelve fifty nine,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: he's back there for one minute, he goes back out
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: the door. A minute later, you know he's he's standing
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: at the bus stop, you know, uh by you know
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: early and Roberts says, she looked out there moments later.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Now what does that mean? You know, so Matt dout
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: that likes to act like moments means four minutes later
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: she looks out there and Oswald comes in it one
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: oh three, and he's back there for a few minutes
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: to one oh six, and then she looks out the
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: door moments later, so he's out there like a one o.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: You know, he Matt dout that literally has and I
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: don't want to make this about Matt, but he literally
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: has Oswald standing at the bus stop as late as
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: one o eight or one oh nine. And whereas I
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: believe that Oswald arrives at twelve fifty nine, he's in
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: his room for a minute, he's standing at the bus
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: stop for a minute. By one on one, I think
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: he starts walking south on Beckley.
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: So also, just to back up a little bit, Early
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: Roberts says that she saw a cop car pull up Hank,
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: It's worn twice, and she got up and looked out
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: the window, and that this supposedly happened while Oswald is
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: in his room changing correct, Yeah, okay, and.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Not after he's away from the bus stop.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Correct, according to Early and Roberts, it was while Ozwell
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: was back in the room, you know. But then again,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: so let's go, let's get back to that a later time.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Right now, I'm just trying to do the timeline, you know,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to show you how I feel like Oswald
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: gets a tenth of patent by sixteen. Okay, uh So,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: so to recap with the Secret Service, the FBI, David
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: bellin the You Stop Watches the Cecil, Mic Waters, William Whaley.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Oswald basically arrives at the rooming house at twelve fifty nine.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I feel like he's back there for a minute, because
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I also feel like he's back there just long enough
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: to grab a jacket and go back out the door.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: I talked on the phone with Darwin Payne the Dallas
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Times Herald. I talked to him about two months ago,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: and he was actually in the rooming house that afternoon
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: after the police left, and he was able to talk
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: to Early Roberts. And the reason I wanted to talk
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: to him was because I wanted to know what Arline
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: may have said to him regarding how long Oswald was
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: back there in the room. And when I was talking
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: to mister Payne, he he didn't give any number, like
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: as far as he was back there for two minutes.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: She said he was back there for three minutes, he
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: was back there for one minutes. She never used a number.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: What she told him was that he was in and
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: out real quick. So you know what does that mean?
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Is he back there changing clothes? Is he back there
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: for three or four minutes or is he back there
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: just long enough to grab a jacket, you know, which
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: is what I believe. So my point is he arrives
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: at twelve fifty nine, stays back there for a minute,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: he walks out the door at one. She actually even
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: said that he you know, that he rushed in, so
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: we know he's not just walking lack of days ago,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: you know, and she and she said you should are
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: in a hurry. Then she looks out the window. You know,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: he's at the bus stop. You know, if if he's
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: basically standing at the bus stop, it's near that busy
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: intersection of Beckley and Zang And you know, by this
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: time it's thirty minutes after the assassination. He doesn't know
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: is his face on the news, is his name all
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: over the place. It's not we know this now, But
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: he doesn't know what's going on. So he decides, you know,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: what's pretty this this is just me hypothesized and admit
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: this is speculating. So he's thinking, you know, it's crazy
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: for me to stand out here in this busy intersection.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Let me so he starts walking south on Beckley. Now,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: there was a special called Unsolved History with Gary Mack
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: and Dave Perry, and they had an Oswald double walk
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: in the various routes from the rooming house to tenth
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: and Patten, and the most direct route they had their
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Oswald double reached tenth and Patten and eleven minutes and
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: I think it was eleven minutes and fifteen seconds, eleven
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: minutes and twenty seconds, right, it was eleven twenty or
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: eleven ten right in that window right there. So point being,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: so if I have Oswald leaving the bus stop at
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: one oh one and it's only at eleven or twelve,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: it's eleven minutes of twenty seconds to get to tenthon Patton,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: and Oswald's a tenth and Patten as early as one
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: to twelve. And you asked me a minute ago how
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: that coincides with my time trials that I did. So
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: while I was in Dallas last November, and along with
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Matt da and Paul Abbott, we performed time trials from
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: the front steps of the Depository all the way to
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: tenth to Patton, except Matt didn't walk. Matt didn't walk,
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: So that's another thing. So Matt's real critical of my
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: time trials. He criticizes me for not including the eight
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: or ten seconds that Oswald offered the cab to the lady,
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: you know, in front of the greyhound. You know. Uh,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: he criticized me for not counting the ten seconds that
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Ozwold would have had to pay when he got on
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: mcwater's bus. It's a bunch of nonsense that yet he
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: wants to he's criticizing these eight seconds here in ten
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: seconds there, Yet he wanted to stop it at red
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: lights too. Well, I'll get to that. Yeah. So so
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Matt criticizes me for not counting eight seconds to allow,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: you know, to offer the cab to the lady, eight
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: or ten seconds, for not putting change through the little
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: slot there when he got on the bus, and yet
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: he wants to accept see some McWaters that Ozhold was
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: on the bus for four minutes. What if Ozwold was
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: on the bus for three and a half minutes. What
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: if it was four and a half minutes or five minutes.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: My point is it's foolish for anyone to try to
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: break this down into split seconds. It's not possible. Okay,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: All we can do is say that Oswell could have
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: got there by one twelve. So regarding what you just
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: now said, about stopping. So let me get to that.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: So with Paul Abbott and Matt douth that we drove.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: We drove from well, we first of all, we walked
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: from the front steps of the Depository east on Elm
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Street to the spot where Oswald got on the bus,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: me Paul and Matt, and it took us six minutes
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: and fifty five seconds, all right, So if we allowed
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: for four minutes on the bus, w's just going by
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: what mcwater said. And keep in mind, we're trying to
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: determine the earliest possible time Oswald could have got to
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Tip and Patten. So we're not going to use the
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: five minutes because mcwater said four or five minutes. We're
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: going to use the four minutes. And I'm doing this
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: for a reason. And then from the point that Oswald
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: got off the bus, we walked over to the Greyhound
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: station where Whaley's cab was parked, and we know exactly
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: where it was parked. And that took three minutes and
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: twenty six seconds. And I'm doing this with two conspiracy
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: advocates in mind. And then we drove from that spot.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: We actually had to walk back to Dealey Plaza to
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: get our cars. And drove back up to the Greyhound.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: So we started from that spot. We drove to the
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: intersection of Beckley and Neely where Oswald got out of
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: the cab and took us four minutes and fifty three seconds.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Now here's the thing I take offense to something Matt
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: said when he was describing this on your podcast a
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: few weeks ago. I did stop the stopwatch at the
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: red lights. I think there was three red lights, and
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: I stopped. I paused the stopwatch at those three red
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: lights because again, and this is important, I'm trying to
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: determine the earliest Oswald could have got to tip the Patton,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: just to.
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: See if it was possible, so hypothetically, if the cab
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: caught every green light on the way, that's my point.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: That's my point, and I'm admitting. I'm admitting that. Like
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: I said, I'm just trying to see the earliest he
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: could have got there, all right, I'm not whenever I
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: reached my conclusion at the end. I'm not demanding that
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Oswell got there at blah blah blah of time. I'm
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: just trying to see what the earliest was he could
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: have got there. So when you're doing that, you're gonna stop,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: You're gonna pause the stopwatch at the three red lights.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Now Matt says something about I stopped, I paused the
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: stopwatch at stop signs. Well, okay, so that's bullshit. We
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: didn't come to any stop signs and we didn't stop
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: the stopwatch at stop signs, and he said that to you,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: So that didn't happen. But we did come to three
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: red lights where I paused the stopwatch, and then we
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: got out of the cab, and so with Paul Abbot,
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: because Matt Datha didn't walk it, by the way, with
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Paul Abbott, we walked from Beckley Neely back up to
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: the front door of the rooming house. And that took
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: five minutes and fifty four seconds. Okay, let's just allow,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: just for arguments purposes, right now, Oswall's back in the
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: room for one minute because again according to Earlan Robbers,
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: just long enough I guess to grab a jacket and
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: put it on. That's a direct quote from Earlying Roberts.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: And then we allow him to stand out of the
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: bus stop for one minute. And then from the bus
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: stop outside of the rooming house, I walked at myself personally,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: it took twelve minutes of twenty seconds. Keep in mind
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Gary McK and Dave Perry on the Unsolved h History special,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: they have their Oswald double. He does it a full
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: minute quicker than me, but I was fifty years old,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: so the total time for me was thirty nine minutes
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: and twenty eight seconds. But we're not counting the eight
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: seconds that he has to drop change in the slot.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: We're not counting the seven eight seconds, ten seconds that
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: he's got to offer the cab to the lady. I
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: think all that stuff is kind of silly, and I
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: really don't know what Matt's trying to get at when
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: he wants to argue about little things like that, because
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: they are they are insignificant. So here's the thing, Rob,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: If I leave the front steps of the depository of
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: twelve thirty three, then I am at the patrol car,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: I'm at the look. I'm not saying the shooting took
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: place this early. I'm just saying if I leave the
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: depository at twelve thirty three and I don't, and I
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: paused at the stop watch at the three red lights,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: they reached tenth and patent between one twelve and one
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: thirteen and I'm only trying to so I'm not saying
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: the shooting took place of one twelve, one thirteen. I'm
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: simply saying that it was possible to get there early.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: It's even possibly gotten there.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: In my opinion won one to twelve to one thirteen
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: is when I got there. But I'll tell you what
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: if we're gonna allow for the Gary Mack Dave Perry
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Oswald doubled instead of me, I walked it in twelve twenty.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: He walked into eleven twenty. So there Oswald gets there
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: between one eleven and one twelve, but I get there
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: between one twelve and one thirteen. Because their Oswald double
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: obviously walked it faster than I did. Okay, uh, And
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Oswald probably would have been walking faster than me. You know,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: he's one hundred and forty pound marine, twenty four years old.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: He's gonna walk it faster than me. So there's no
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: problem with whether or not Oswald was able to get
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: to the Tippet shooting in time. And that's all I'm
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: trying to say regarding that.
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: So hypothetically, all the stars aligne everything goes right as
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: quickly as possible, he could have been there by one
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: twelve thirteen.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Early, yeah, one twelve, like one twelve twenty eight, something
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: like that. I think it was one twelve twenty eight
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: with what I did. And if the shooting isn't until
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: one fifteen to one sixteen, then we still have three
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: minutes to play around with. And that's my whole point.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying the shooting took place at one twelve.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying you can get there by one twelve,
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: and he.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: May not have gotten there by one toy he may
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: have been there one fourteen, one fifteen.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: Correct. Things happen, right, I mean, it's possible, and you know,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: and then you have.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: You know, something going on either way. Maybe he was
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: maybe Earling was he was in it. Maybe he was
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: in the room for two minutes.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean may maybe he was in there for
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: forty seconds. Maybe he was in there for two minutes.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: There's no way to know.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: So she's another one too.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: It's it's hard to trust what she says because you know,
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: she's saying that the FBI and the police show up
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: at the roomyhouse at one thirty.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: I think she's baddest. I mean, they ain't even arrest
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: os walll till one fifty at the Texas State as it.
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: You know something okay, well, you know if the cops
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: are at the roomy house, but one thirty, something's definitely
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: going on here because they where he lives.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: I'd be willing to bet your Earlian Roberts is one
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: of those ladies where if you put a blindfold onder
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: and tell her not to talk for five minutes and
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: then you take it off, she wouldn't have been able
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: to tell you how long she had it on. Was
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: it was it two minutes or was it twelve minutes?
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Some people just don't know those things.
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: So mentally, how these people were put together back then.
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: I mean, we've seen an interview with her and you
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: can kind of gauge a little bit from that, and.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Well, you know she was fired, you know, for making
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: up stories. You know, you know, Gladys Johnson said that
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: she was prone to making up stories. It was one
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: of the issues that she always had with Earleen Roberts.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: So and also one more thing, and then we'll talk
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: about the witnesses. If that's if we're done with the timeline,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: and I can still talk timeline if you want to,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: But Arleen Roberts was besieged by the world's press on
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: the afternoon of the assassination. She makes no mention whatsoever
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: from the police card. She mentions nothing to any to
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: know one as a matter of fact. One thing she
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: did say, though, is that Oswald walked out, zipping up
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: a jacket as he went out the door. You know,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: short great coat, is why, she told a reporter on
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: a radio interview that afternoon. My point is, though, why
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: didn't she tell everybody about this? She said, A short
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: gray coat is what she said.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: She's in a dark jacket as well well, was she.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Told the reporter on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Was he left the room going out the front doors,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: zip it up as he went out. It's a short
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: a short great.
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: Coat, secret service report or something, she said, A dark,
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: dark colored jacket.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so mans you know, yeah, but let me
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: ask you, are you are you by by bringing that up,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: are you saying that you're you're not sure he left
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: in a jacket or what?
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: I'm just saying.
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: The one they found is like really like gray almost
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: white gray right colored jacket, which is different.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't call that a dark colored jacket.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: She said, she she she when they showed her the
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: jacket and her testimony, she says he thought that the
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: jacket he left in was a little darker than the
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: one they were showing her. Warring Commissioner exit for one
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: sixty two is the jacket in evidence. So point being
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: that she said, she said he left. Let let's call
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: it a rainbow colored jacket for all I care. She said,
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: he left his jacket, and he was zipping up as
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: he went out the door, and this and this, this
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: will matter later. I'll save this one for later. So
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: but she told a reporter on that afternoon that he
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: left in a short gray coat. Okay, but my point
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: about the police card with the early Roberts. She's besieged
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: by the world's press that afternoon, doesn't say a word
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: about this police car. And now on Sunday, two days later,
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Jack Ruby shoots Lee Rby Oswald, which undoubtedly sparked tons
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: of conspiracy theories. Right, the accused assassin is gunn down
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: in the basement of the police station. That's very suspicious, naturally, Yeah,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: conspiracy theories are gonna fly. And then all of a
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: sudden a few days after that, now Earlan Robbers tells
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: a story about a police car pulling up. It's important
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: to note the timing of when she told this police
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: car story, and it wasn't during that weekend. So let's
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: just you know, do with that information what you want,
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: but at least know that at least be aware of that.
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, I mean that that's a whole other rabbit hole, right, yeah,
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: exactly with the number of the car and how many
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: people are in it and who you know, yeah, yeah.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: So and and by the way, if they're gonna what
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: was the purpose of this supposed what were they supposed
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: to pick him up? Was that that's the case? Why
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: didn't they Let's again, we've got to use logic and
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: common sense. If this horn honking incident happened, then why
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: did they pull up and honk and leave that? That
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: makes no sense whatsoever. So to me, that alone, you
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: can rule out that had happened, because if they did
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: pull up, why are they there? They're there to pick
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: him up? Right, Well, then why didn't they pick.
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: Him up there?
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: You would think, well, unless he was unless he didn't
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: come out, and he's longer there, longer than a minute,
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: and they waited two or three minutes for me, and
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: he never came out.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: So then they just decide we're going to let the
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: pass he walked the streets instead of waiting a couple
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: more minutes for him. You know, that doesn't make sense to.
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: Me, depending on what their job was supposed to be with,
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: you know, with grabbing Oswald right there. Who knows, I'm
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: just playing Devil's advocate.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I appreciate that, believe me. And I'm obviously
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: if you're just gonna agree with everything I say, it's
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: gonna be a boring conversation, right right.
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I like having fun, you know, because a
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: lot of even though I am conspiracy minded, you know,
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: I do.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: I look at things more.
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: I tend to lean and trust the documents more than
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: I do eyewitness testimony because a lot of.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: It is screwy.
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: And we'll get there when we get to the tip
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: of witnesses, because I you know, I'm trying to tell Matt,
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm like, you know, we got all these witnesses,
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: they all saying different shit, and they're all, you know,
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: supposedly right here, but to see something different, and da.
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: Da da da da, You're like, oh no, they all
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: pretty much saw the same thing. I'm like, I don't know,
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: that's what I get.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the witnesses. We're going to
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: talk about the witnesses. But the most of what I
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: want to accomplished in the last of these last ten
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: minutes was just to show everybody watching out there that
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: when you hear conspiracy advocates insist that Oswald could not
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: have got there in time to shoot Tippet, assuming that
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: the shooting was at one fifteen one sixteen, not one
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: six one oh seven, which we're going to discuss that
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: later also, But if you accept that the shooting was
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: at one fifteen, basically that I just wanted to show
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: that it was it's possible for him to have gotten
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: there in time.
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: Okay, right now, I think that's what have come out
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: of my mouth at some point on this show, that
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: there's no way Lee Harvey Oswell could have gotten to
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: the scene of the tip and crime in time to
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: be the murderer.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: But again, so based on what time do you think
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: the shooting it up to make you say that, though,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: what time are we talking about the shooting? Because I
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: just showed you to get it out there. I just
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: showed you there.
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: I'm playing a game of minutes here right right, And
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: I just don't think he got out of the depository
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: that fast. I mean, and right right after that, you
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: know that soon after Daley plazas and chaos. There's people everywhere.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: So why don't you think he could have got out
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: of there by twelve thirty three? You know that, you know,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: with Marion Baker, they reconstructed Mary Baker's steps, and he
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: did two time trials. H and they used to stop watch,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: and if I recall correctly, this is in my area
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: of expertise. But if I recall correctly, he did one
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: in seventy five seconds and the other one in ninety
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: seconds because they said, okay, go a little slower this time,
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: you know. So it took him seventy five seconds and
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: ninety seconds when he did those two time trials, from
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: the time he jumped off his motorcycle, which is when
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: the shots occurred, to the time he encounters Oswa and
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: the second floor lunching. So let's call him in and
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: a half.
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So from sixth floor window, southwest corner, twelve thirty
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: twelve thirty one, roughly right, I'll give you Oswald or
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: whoever was up there shooting. We'll say Oswald because he
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: was in the building. Okay, so say he was in
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: six four window, he took the shots, he immediately takes off,
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: runs across the floor, hides the rifle, runs down the
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: stairs with nobody seeing him, to the second floor lunch
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: room to get a drink. Okay, from that point on,
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: he ain't running because there's too many people around, and
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: you wouldn't want to draw attention to yourself if you'd
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: just done what he was accused of doing. Right, So
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: you want to seem normal at that point. It's you know,
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: do you agree with that? Yeah, you wouldn't want to
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: be like running out of the depositor.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: I believe he was going down the stairs with a
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: pretty good pace. But I'm sure he just walked normally
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: across the second floor. Yes, right, so he's not rushing
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: out of the school pository. I agree.
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: Another I have is nobody sees him leaving except Fraser. Allegedly.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: Well, Fraser doesn't even that story for forty years, and
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: it's one commissioned testimony. Bill Fraser said he didn't see
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: Oswald anytime after eleven.
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: Well, he tells the story the sixth floor museum.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in two thousand and two or something like that.
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: And then he tells something different in the book Steering
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: Truth Book. Yeah right, yeah, that's who knows what to believe,
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: But here's the thing though, So, but but you can
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: get from the sniper's nest window to the second floor
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: lunch room in ninety seconds, and then you can walk
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: from the second floor lunchroom out the front door in
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: ninety seconds.
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, if if he's constantly moving and not stopping to think,
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: or you know, if he's.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Just going moving. But the thing is that the Warm
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Commission did not make up the time of twelve thirty three.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: They did time trials.
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: Okay, right now, I understand, yeah.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, So so my point is, and if my information
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: is wrong, it's wrong. But my point is if he's
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: walking out of the front steps at twelve thirty three,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: which is what the War Commission concluded, but I just
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: witnessed for that, do they No, there's no way to know.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: No, I mean, that's just what they figured.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, of course he was supposedly encountered to
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: you know, the reporter who asked him, you know, where
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: a phone was, you know, as he's going in as
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Oswald's coming out, you know, if you believe that was
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: indeed Oswald, you know, But so I just my my
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: only point was, I just wanted to show you that
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: it's possible for Oswald to have got from the front
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: steps to tenth and Patten by one twelve. It depends
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: on how fast you walk from the rooming house to
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: tenth and Patten yourself, you know, as far as if
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: you think it was a little bit before one twelve
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: or little bit after one twelve. So now you have these,
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: you have these witnesses along the area of the tip
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: of shooting, and a block to the east of the
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: tenth and Patten is tenth and Denver. All right, two
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: men were out in the front our two young men
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: were out in the front yard at tenth and Denver
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: on the that would be the north east corner. They
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: were out in the front yard. It was a duplex
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: coincidentally shared with Frank and Mary Wright, by the way,
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: And it's one of these Jimmy, Jimmy Burt, Jimmy Burton,
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: Bill Smith that these these these two guys are out
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: in the front yard.
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: And h I'm glad you bring him up because I
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: just listened to some audio.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: The other day. Yeah, yeah, so you're talking. You're talking
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: about the auto he did with Al Chapman in nineteen
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: sixty eight.
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Uh. Jimmy Burt says he saw the guy who would
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: eventually kill the cop walking across the street from him,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: from his left to his right, in other words, walking
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: along the street. Yes, walking along Tenth Street. He crosses
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: Denver and continues walking west on Tenth towards the intersection
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: with Patton and Jimmy. Jimmy Burt saw the guy. But
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: but Bill Smith never saw the guy because made perhaps
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: and he didn't really clarify her, but perhaps Bill Smith
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: at his back to the side walker who knows. But
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Burch says he saw him. Bill Smith never saw him.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: And Bill Smith test fight of the Warren Commission that
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: he didn't see the guy until they saw the police
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: car pull over, you know, three fourths of a block down.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: They're watching this from three fourths of a block away.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: They see the police car pull over, and that's when
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: Bill Smith notices the guy was out on the sidewalk.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: Come over. And so they're standing there watching. Burt and
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: Smith are standing there watching the police car talking to
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: a guy who was walking. You know, the police officer
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: talking to the guy who was walking. They Burt says,
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: they got ready to go in because they're thinking, Okay, well,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: nothing's happening here, let's go in and watch news about
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: the assassination. As they were about to go in, they
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: hear the gunshots. Jimmy Burch says, Bill, Bill, that guy
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: just shot that cop. They turned back around, and Bill
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Smith testifies to the Warren Commission that he saw tipet
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: fall and he says Oswald running away. But I think
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: he says that because he was accepting that it was Oswald.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: I don't think he can identify Oswald from three forces
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: of a block away when Oswald has us back to
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: him running in the opposite direction. So Jimmy me Bert looks,
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: he yells to Bill Smith. Bill Smith looks down the
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: street and sees tippet fall and he sees the killer
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: running away. Uh so that's two of the witnesses right there.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: Then you have Domingo Benavitas now benefit.
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: Before we move on to Domingo.
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: Okay, I have a question about Bert, just to clarify
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: something because in that in that interview, he says that
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: the person he says that he says shot Tippett walked
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: is walking west on Tenth instead of east, which is
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: not the way Oswald would have been coming from if
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: he had been coming from his rooming house.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: Correct.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Correct, But here's here's the thing. Here's the thing. And
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: I was going to get into this later, but I
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: can do this right now if you want so. Have
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: you read With Malice by Dell Myers? I have not. Okay,
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: he puts forth a theory that and I, okay, let
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: me rephrase this. There's the theory that David Ellen actually
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: investigated when he was doing this. You know in nineteen
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: sixty four that Oswald was trying to get either to
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: the Jefferson Branch Library or the bus stop right outside
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: the Jefferson Branch Library. Now, the Jefferson Branch Library was
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: located at the intersection of Jefferson and Marsalis. All right, now,
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: when you're at the rooming house at ten twenty six
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: North Beckley, and your goal is the Jefferson Branch Library
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: and or the bus stops right outside the library, because
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: it's a busy intersection right there, then there are three
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: I think there's three to four different routes you can
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: take and all of them are similar in length. Okay, now,
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: David Bellin. They interviewed the supervisor of the Dallas Greyhound
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: and they asked about possibly taking a greyhound bus down
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: to Laredo to the border. Okay, Laredo, Texas, and the
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: supervisor told them that's fight of the Warran Commission told
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: them that from the UH, the UH, the VA Hospital
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: which is further south in oak Cliffe. Okay, it's further
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: south in Oakliffe, the VA Hospital, one can board a
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: greyhound bus right there at the VA Hospital. You don't
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: have to have a bus ticket from the depot in downtown,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: nothing like that. You can board a greyhound bus on
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: the open road. And this is what this supervisor testified to.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: You can board a greyhound bus on the open road
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: as long as it's safe for the bus to stop
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: and you know, like there's no traffic behind it. In
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: other words, you can be hitchhiking and a greyhound a
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: greyhound bus go by out of the desert. Let's say
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: you're hitchhiking to Laredo or something. Yeah, I'm not saying.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: ALSOLD was planning on doing this. What I'm but the
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: point is that, yes, you can stop a greyhound bus
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: and hop on and you just paid the driver right
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: then and there. Now, the VA Hospital, which is further
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: south in oak Cliffe, was known for a greyhound buses
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: pulling in and out, and they put forth the theory
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: that Oswald could have been now the bus stop outside
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: the library, the Jefferson Branch library again intersection of Jefferson
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: and Marsalis. Oswald had that bus transfer on him, and
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: this transfer was if he catches the what's called the
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: Lancaster Line, that transfer would have been good until the
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: next available bus comes by, which would have been one thirty.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: So Oswald, that transfer would have been good on the
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: Lancaster Line until one thirty. Okay, he could have used
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: that transfer, taken it, and the Lancaster Line takes you
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: straight to the VA Hospital, by the way, it's one
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: of the stops on the Lancaster Line before it ends
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: up turning around further south at heading back north. So Oswald,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: whether he knew it or not, who knows. When we're
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: talking about where Oswald was going, all we can do
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: is speculate. We admit that. Okay, there's admittedly it's. All
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: we can do is speculate. So perhaps Oswald wanted to
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: get to the greyhound to the VA hospital where he
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: could catch a greyhound bus. Okay, the transfer would have
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: been good. And then from the greyhound bus they asked
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: the supervisor that the greyhound supervisor in Dallas, how much
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: would it have cost to take to buy a ticket
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: from Dallas to Laredo And the answer was twelve dollars
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: and eighty cents. Well, when he was arrested, Oswald had
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: thirteen dollars and eighty seven cents on him, so we
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: had enough money to get a ticket to Laredo. Now,
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: of course he wouldn't have much money left. But uh so,
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: the theory goes that I was trying to get to
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: what's that I was just saying.
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: I was just gonna say, I would think, you know,
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: that Ozah would have had some kind of a better
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: getaway plan.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: Than he had.
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, if he knew he was going to even make
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: it out alive, you know, right, I you know, maybe
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: he didn't think he was going to make it out
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: of either, but he did try and he did succeed.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: And then, now, what are you gonna.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: Do if there was a conspiracy, In my opinion, if
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: there if he was a Patsy. The simple fact that
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Oswald made it out of the depository tells me there
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: was no conspiracy, because I believe if there was a conspiracy,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: he's killed in the depository or right outside. You're not
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: gonna allow your passy to wander the streets of Dallas
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: and oak Cliffe and cabs and buses. That that's something
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: you're not gonna you Patsy do.
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: Experiency is Tippets waiting at the Glow Coal station for
• 53:04
  Speaker 4: him to come across in that bus.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: And then but why take it even that far? Why
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: not just kill him right there on the streets of Dallas,
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: you know, as he's walking into town. You know, why
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: why not kill him in the building? Why not kill
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: him on the front steps? You know? These guys are
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: these conspirators are so great to murder the president and
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: get away with it. Yet they screw up and let
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: the Patsy escape the scene. That just I don't know.
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: But my point is, what's that he didn't escape the transfer?
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, that's true. Yeah, that was a good one.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: That was a good one. So uh, But if you know,
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: if Oswald wanted to get to the bus stop at
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: Jefferson and Marsalis to get down to the VA Hospital
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: to then board a Greyhound to get to Laredo. So
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: that regarding which direction, Jimmy Burke saw Oswald walking and
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: this is what I'm getting at, so uh Dale Myers
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: and he mentions this, and with malice the updated edition
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: he was looking at the Dallas County, not the Dallas
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: City Police, but the Dallas County Sheriff's transcripts. And so
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: the story goes that TF Bowley pulls up on the
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: on the tippet shooting scene, sees the dead officer line
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: in the street, goes over to the patrol car. Benavidez
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: is trying to work the mic, doesn't know how to
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: do it. Bowie pushes him aside. Bully takes the mic
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: and Bowley reports the shooting of the police officer. That's
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: that's the famous year Hello, Hello, police operator, has been
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: a shooting out here, you know all that. That's Bully
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: and it happens a one seventeen, Okay. So as soon
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: as Bolli makes that report, the Dallas County Sheriff's dispatchers
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: they're they monitor the police, the city police tapes, all right,
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: They monitor each other. The Dallas County Sheriff dispatcher puts
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: out a bulletin to all the patrol units throughout Dallas
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: County about a shooting at a city police officer, you know,
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: on Tenth Street to Oakliff. Now what happens is a
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: unit one oh nine, and we don't know who he is,
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: but one and if you ever can get a hold
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: of the Dallas County Sheriff transcripts, you can read this
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: for yourself. You know, one on nine reports to his dispatcher. Hey,
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: I'm near Jefferson in tenth do you want me to assist? Now,
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: Jefferson and Tenth might sound weird to you if you
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: think of the tip of scene. However, Tenth curves to
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: the right, Jefferson curves to the left. Down there, they
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: actually intersect, believe it or not. So point being, if
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: Oswald is walking, he gets to Tenth and Patton around
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: one twelve. He's walking east on tenth Street with the
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: goal of getting to the library at tenth and Jefferson.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry at Jefferson and Marsalis to get to the
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: bus stop. Now we know that there's a unit one
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: oh nine who reported from that area just after the
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: tip of shooting. So the point being if he was
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: there just after, maybe he was there just before as well.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Oswald sees him and gets spooked because Tenth Street curves
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: to the right about two blocks east of Tenth and Patton.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: So Oswald's walking along tenth Street. Just got a picture
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: of this. He's walking along tenth or he wants to
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: go to Marsalis. He wants to take a right on
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: Marsalis to go to the bus stop, because the bus
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: totally one block down. When tenth Street curves, you can't
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: see anything east of that curve until you get to
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: the curve on tenth Street. It's that tenth and Lancing.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: But when tenth Street makes that curve, now whole nother
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: road opens up to you. And so possibly this Unit
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: one nine, this Dallas County Sheriff deputy was sitting maybe
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: eating his lunch in a parking lot three or four
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: blocks down. Who knows. Oswald perhaps sees this law enforcement
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: vehicle sitting down there, doesn't want to walk anywhere near it,
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: and doesn't about face. Now he's walking west on Tenth
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: Street to be noticed by Jimmy Burke. You understand what
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: I'm saying, and I timed this walk with Matt, doubt it,
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: and it took us a minute. From the patrol car,
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: we walked to the curve on Tenth Street. It took
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: us a minute in fifty four seconds to walk, and
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: I walked it with Matt. And then let's say Oswald
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: sees that law enforcement vehicle down a few blocks, doesn't
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: want to walk past him because again Oswald doesn't know
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: if his name or his face is all over the news.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Yet again we know it wasn't, but he doesn't know
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: what's going on, so he doesn't about face. Now he's
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: walking west on tenth Street back towards Tenth and Denver
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: to be seen by Jimmy Burke, crossing over Denver, continuing
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: west to be to encounter tip it down at the
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: next block. It's only a theory, it's it's it's only speculating.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: But we know that you know one oh nine reported
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: from there shortly after the tip of shooting, so maybe
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: he was there before as well. That's so now you
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: can get to Now you can get Oswald walking west
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: on tenth that's seen by Burt still in time if
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: he gets there, if he gets tenth of Pattnah one twelve.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: Then he's right back there at one fifteen forty or
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: one fifteen fifty, which could have been the time he
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: encounter's Tippet because Benavitaz jumps on there starts kiying the
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: mic around, you know, one fifteen to one sixteen. Uh,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: I'm only trying to address your question about Jimmy Burke
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: saying the guy was walking east to west?
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: Is this before or after Helen Markham goes over to
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: the dying JD. Tippett and consoles him for a minute
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: or two when she's the only one around.
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so so let me so that's so, let's let's go.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: So.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: Let so we have we have Bill Smith and Jimmy Burke.
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: They're at tenth and Denver. They're watching They're watching the
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: police car talk to the guy was walking to hear
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: the shots, look down the street. They smeth sees tip
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: and fall sees the guy run away towards the corner
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: of tenth and Patten. And then you have Ben and Vitas.
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: Now Ben A.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: Vitas was working on a broken down vehicle, interestingly enough,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: on Patten between tenth and Jefferson, which is pretty interesting.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: Never found out to this day, who who that who
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: the owner of that vehicle was. But he's working on
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: this vehicle. It's broken down and he's run over to
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: an autopart store located over on Marcellus. He gets in
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: his truck, drives through the alley, the alley that runs
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: parallel with Tenth and Jefferson. It was in the backed
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: up against the Duch motor Lot or Harris Brothers. He
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: turns left on Denver, takes a right on Tenth, and
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: now he's heading towards Marsalis, which is where the autopart
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: store was. Realizes he forgot the part number. I think
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: it was a carburetor. Realized he forgot the part number.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: He turns around. Now he's driving back towards tenth and Denver.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: He crosses over tenth and Denver, and as he's driving
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: on Tenth towards tenth and Patten, that's when the shooting happens.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: And he swerves this truck over the right, almost up
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: onto the curb and he ducks down. Okay, so you
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: have so you have Burton Smith in the front yard watching,
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: you have Benavitas now ducking down in his truck. Then
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: you have Helen Markham. She was walking to her bus stop,
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: which is located at the corner of Jefferson and Patten.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: Her bus stop is right there at that corner Jefferson
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: and Patten, a block south of the eventual shooting scene.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: So she's walking south on Patton. As she's approaching the corner,
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: she sees Tippet's patrol car slowly cruised through the intersection
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: from her right to her left. In other words, Tippet
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: was driving from the west to the east. And as
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: she gets to the corner, she looks down two houses
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: down as she noticed that the petrol car pulls over
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: and there was a guy on the sidewalk. Now by
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: the way, Helen Markham said that the guy who shot
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: the police officer, which she identified as oswalk, but she
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: said she watched him walk across walk on Tenth Street
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: from the west to the east, in other words, right
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: in front of Skogan's cab, walking the same direction that
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: Tippts petr Pro car would have been cruising moments later.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: And she said she even if you read her testimony,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: she even saw the guy step up onto the curb
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: and continue walking on the sidewalk. This would be in
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: front of the Barbara Davis, Virginia Davis's house, and he's
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: continued walking east and then tip it pulls up behind him,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: you know, moments later. So if you believe Martha, she says,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: because yeah, he directly contradicts Jimmy Burt as far as
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: which way the guy was walking.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: Plus, she was headed down, if I'm not mistaken, she
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: was heading down to Jefferson to catch a bus.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: Right. The bus was at Jefferson and Patton, right, and
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: the bus normally came at what time? So the FBI
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: did a study and they found that there was a
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: bus stop there at one twelve and one twenty two
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: and every ten minutes thereafter. So David h So Joseph
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: Ball asked her what time she gets her bus? She says,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: one fifteen. Now what First of all, it's a strange
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: way to ask a question, what what time do you
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: get your bus? What does that mean? You know, do
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: you get on the bus, you get to the bus stop.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: Why didn't he just say what time do you get
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: on the bus or what time is your you know?
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: But anyway, so she says one fifteen. There is no
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: one fifteen stop right there. It's either one twelve or
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: one twenty two. Uh So the conspiracy advocates will like
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: to say that Helen Markham says she was catching the
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: bus at one twelve. No, she she never says one twelve.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: She never says one twelve. And quite honestly, if she
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: always got there one fifteen, because that is the only
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: time she gave regarding the bus was one fifteen, that's
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: the only time she ever gives. If she continually gets
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: there one fifteen, she's always gonna miss that one twelve bus,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: unless the bus occasionally runs a few minutes late. So
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: my point is, for every every time a conspiracy advocate
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: argues that she was on her way to catch the
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: bus at one twelve, I can also argue that it
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: was one twenty two because.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: She says another bus was coming ten minutes later, right,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: because she's you know, telling the truth. Then that then
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: the shooting happened much earlier than we think, right, Yeah.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: So yeah, she said she left her apartment at one
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: a few minutes after one, and she said she estimated
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: she reached the corner of Tipton Patton at one o
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: six one oh seven. So a lot of conspiracy advocates
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: will like to argue that therefore the shooting curred at
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: one o seven, and we're gonna address that. Believe me,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: I'm going to address that too, you know, regarding the
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: time of the shooting. But I got him in order here.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: So right now we're just talking about the witnesses. So
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: all let me forget, but we'll get back to Markham's
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: one of I know that's what you're getting at, but
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: you have as far as the identifications and those witnesses
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: that saw the shooting. Markum's approaching the corner. She looks
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: down the street. The police officers pulled over and she's
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: watching this, and you know, she testifies a nice, friendly
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: conversation the police. She said, tip It got out, didn't
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: seem alarmed or anything. It was nice and calm. Then
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you know, Oswald steps back for
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: the patrol car, pulls out his revolver and fires a
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: number of shots, striking tipp It and tip It falls,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: and of course Oswald then takes off for the corner.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: So you got Markham standing at the corner. So to recap,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: we have Jimmy Burton, Bill Smith in the front yard
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: of block to the east. We have Benavetas right there,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: fifteen feet from the spot where Tipet fell ducking down
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: in his truck, and we have Markham standing on the
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: corner of Tinton Patton, the northwest corner, watching the shooting
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: go down and the killer running in her direction but
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: across the street. Then we have Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: First of all, this to William Scaggins, because he actually
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: saw the shooting as well. So Scaggins is in his cab.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: He's sitting at the intersection of Tent and Patten. He's
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: on Patent. He's on Patent facing north. He's facing the
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: intersection and he's eating his lunch. He notices Tippet's patrol
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: car cruise slowly through the intersection, same thing to Markham saw,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: but Markoum was on the other side of the street.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: He so from Scauguin's position, the Tippet's patrol car was
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: cruising from the left to his right, cruising east on
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: Tenth Street. Skaggin says that you know, the cop went
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: on down and he saw him stop a couple of
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: houses down, and he said he went back to eating
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: his lunch and then he hears a shot or number
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: of shots. He says, he looked up and he saw tippet,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: clutch at his chest and foll to the ground. And
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: then he noticed that the guy who was talking to
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Skaggins through the passenger window starts running in his direction.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: Scoggins gets out and he starts to run across the
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: street away from the approaching gunman. Realized he had nowhere
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: to go and he was safer to return back to
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: his cap. So Scaggins is ducking behind the trunk by
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: the back driver's side tire as Oswald is, you know,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: jumping the hedges, and then you know, heading south on patent.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: Skaggin says something interesting here. He said that that the
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: killer who he identified at Oswald. But he said the
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: killer mumbled to himself, poor damn cop or poor dumb cop.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: Scaggin's wasn't sure which one he said, but he said
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: that he said it twice, poor damn cop or poor
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: dumb cop. Now we're going to pause for a second
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: right here, because Robert Oswald wrote a book, and in
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: this book he talks about living in Fort Worth after
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: Lee returned home from Russia. They were in the car
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: one day and Robert Oswald runs a yellow light, I
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: guess basically turns red. He gets pulled over. Police officer
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: walks up and basically tells Robert, I'm pulling you over
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: because you ran a red light back there, And Robert
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: says to the police officer, well, yeah, I had somebody
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: right on my back bumper, and I felt like if
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: I would have stopped, he would have hit me, so
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: I felt it best to go through the intersection. It
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: didn't matter. The police officer cited him for running the
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: red light. Okay. Robert Oswald in his book tells how
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: after getting the citation, the cop was walking back. Ozwald
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: in the passenger seat looked over his shoulder and said,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: dumb cop. So that doesn't make oz want a cop
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: killer Tinton Patten. Okay, But Robert Oswald tells the story
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: ozwa's like dumb cop, And then William Skaugan says that
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: the guy mumbled to himself twice, poor damn copper, poor
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: dumb cop, as he was jumping the bushes and heading
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: south on Patton. So do with that information what you want.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: But I just figured your listeners, your watchers might like
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: to know it. I think it's interesting. So we have
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: Scoggins ducking down behind his cab. We have the killer
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: running towards him and then heading south on Patten. Okay,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: now we have the Davis sisters, Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: They're in the house on the corner of Tentton Patten,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: that would be the southeast corner. They're putting the kids
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: down to bed for an app I guess they hear
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: the shots. Coincidentally, they testified if I remember right, that
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: they only heard two shots. Nevertheless, they hear the shots.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: They go to the front door and they're almost shoulder
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: to shoulder at the front door. Barbara Davis gets there
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: first and she says, the first thing she noticed was
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: Helen Markham across the street Candy Corner, yelling, you know,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: he shot that police officer. He shot that man. That's
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: the first thing Barbara Davis saw was Helen Markham. Then
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: she readjusts, her attention refocuses, and then then she notices
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: the gunman cutting across their front yard. Because there was
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: no fence, he was cutting diagonally across their yard. And
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis both stood there at the
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: front door saw this guy basically either loading or unloading
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: the revolver, but he was messing with the revolver as
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: he was cutting across the front yard. Barbara Davis says
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: that he looked at her and he kind of gave
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: a little smile as he was making and just kept
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: right on going, but he kind of looked at Barbara
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: Davis gave that a little smile. This is what she
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: testified to. Okay, So at this moment, rob we have
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Burton Bill Smith in the yard a block to
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: the east in the front yard, we have Benefitus ducking
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: down in his truck, peeping up watching what's going on.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: We have Mark Him at the corner, covered her face,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: dropping to her knees screaming. We have Skogins ducking down
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: behind the trunk of his cab. And we have Barbara
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: Davis in Virginia David standing at the at the front door,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: watching the guy cut across the yard. So now let's
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: turn it now. Now we're no longer on Tenth Street.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: Now we're going south on Patton.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: Well, where's a Quila Clemens or was she even there?
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: You want do you want to talk about do you
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: want to talk about the witnesses who came forth earlier?
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: Do you want to talk about the witnesses who came
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: after the fact out of the woodwork.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm just asking that I didn't know if
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: you if you, you know, put.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: Her in no. Well, Akila Clemens, first of all, she
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: Mark Lane put a little spin on it. Akilla Clemens
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: never ever implies that the two men she talks about
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: were together. Yeah, Mark Lane wants to make it sound
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: like she's saying that two men kill Tippet. You can
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: watch her interview on Rush to Judgment. She never says
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: the two guys are together, Okay, and then Shirley Martin
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: interviews her in the summer of sixty four and there's
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: transcripts and there's no mention whatsoever that these two men
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: were together. So don't be fooled by Mark Lane. I
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: do believe Clemens saw something, all right.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: But where was she?
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: And well, so she tells Mark Lane that, you know,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: Mark Lane says, so you heard the shots and then
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: you ran out of the house. Well, that would imply
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: that she was inside when she heard the shots. She
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: didn't see the shooting, because Akille Clemens once stated that
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: when she heard the shots, she thought they were firecrackers.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: So she doesn't even see this going on between the
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: police officer and the guy walking. She just hears the shots.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: She goes out the door, and maybe she sees something
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: like the gunman fleeing. But I like to stick with
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: witnesses that come forward right away. I don't like using
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: witnesses after the fact. Which is also why even though
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: Jack Tatum says it was Oswald, because we don't hear
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: from him until the Householet Committee Asassination investigation. You won't
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: hear me mention Jactatum. As a matter of fact, I
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: was talking to you about the witnesses on Tenth Street.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: I was already ready to go down Patton, and I
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: didn't mention Jactatum to you even though he was on
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: tenth Street. I don't rely on witnesses that we hear
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: fifteen years later, just the same as I'm not going
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: to rely on Achille Clemens, who we hear from not
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: until seven or eight months later, just before the Warren
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: Commission release their report. Uh, the War Commission didn't even
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: learn about a killer Clemens until like the final month,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: and it was too late. By that time, they already
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: wrapped things up and we're getting the report out.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: There was another one Matt mentioned Holman, I supposedly lived
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 4: around the like right around.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: The corner you're talk about. You're talking about Doris ho
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: Leane h o l A n Helene. Okay, yeah, sorry, Yeah,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: that's okay, that's right. Uh So again, you want to
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: talk about real witnesses or made up witnesses afterwards, you know, Okay,
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: So ask me about Doris Holland later. Don't let me
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: forget though, Okay, all right, okay. So in the meantime,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: now we have Oswald heading south on Patton. And if
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: you're Oswald and you just you just jumped the bushes
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: right there in the Davis front yard. Now you're going
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: south on Patten. The first thing you're going to see
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: is Sam Ginyard halfway down the block at the alley
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: looking up at you, and then about fifty feet past
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: ten Ted Calloways on the sidewalk looking up at you.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: You're gonna see these two men looking up at you.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: So you're gonna cross the streets. So Ozwald cuts across
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: the street. Now he's one down Patton on the other
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: side of the street as Genyard in Calloway Okay, and
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: Ganyard and Callaway are watching him run the full length
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: of the street. All the way down to the corner
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: of Patton and Jefferson. And it was at this point,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: just before Oswald reaches the corner when Ted Calloway yells out, hey, man,
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: what the hell is going on? Because Calloway heard the
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: gunshots and he sees Oswold running with a gun. Calloway
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: later testified to the House of Let Committee on Assassinations,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: and he said, I didn't know that he had just
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: killed a cop. Obviously, if I would have known that,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't have yelled at him. He goes, I didn't know,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: you know that he'd just gunned down a cop. So
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: both of these guys, Genyard in Calloway, they watch the
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: killer reach the corner and then proceed ahead. He turns
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: right on Jefferson, So now he's heading west on Jefferson Boulevard.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: Now one more group of witnesses and then then I'm
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: done with the witnesses. At the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: one full block south of the shooting scene, you had
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: Warren Reynolds, Pat Patterson, Harold Russell, and L. J. Lewis.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: Now these four guys there at the Johnny Yills Motor Company,
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: they hear the shot, They all four hear the gun shots.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: It's a block north of them. They go and look,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: and they noticed a man with a gun running down Patten.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: Now he's coming straight towards them, because remember there are
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: south of the blocks south of the shooting scene, oz
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: Water running south on Patton or the killers running south
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: on Patton. And these four men watched the guy running
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: with the gun, that they saw him reach the corner
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: of Patton with Jefferson, and all four of them basically
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: state that he tucked his revolver into his waistband and
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: then started to walk instead of running. So if you're
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: os Water, you're the killer, You're like, hey, new street,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: new demeanor. I'm past all of those witnesses that I
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: had to run. Now I can walk on Jefferson because
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: now people I'm going to encounter on Jefferson don't know
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: anything about what just happened on Patten. I'm speculating as
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: to the way I was want to started walking at
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: this point. He didn't want to draw attention to himself, Okay, exactly. Yeah,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: So these are your witnesses, So to recap Jimmy Burke,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: Bill Smith, that's two bena vitas is three mark him
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: as four Scoggins is five, the Davis sisters of six
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: and six Ginyard in Callaway or eight and nine, and
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: then the four guys at the Johnny Roils Motor Company, L. J. Lewis,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: Pat Patterson, Harold Russell, Warren Reynolds. That's thirteen witnesses that
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: either saw the shooting or they saw the killer running
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: with a gun. Now, these are your real thirteen witnesses.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: Now Clemmens may have seen the guy running away with
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: a gun, she still didn't say it was two men. Okay. Nevertheless,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: and but Matt on your show and everywhere else likes
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: to talk about all these other witnesses way out to
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: the east on Tenth Street, you know, the people working
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: at the you know, working on the building, the apartment
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: complex at you know, tenth and Denver, et cetera, et cetera.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: These aren't you. These aren't your witnesses. They didn't see
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: the shooting and or the guy running away with a gun. Okay,
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: I'm just talking about the real witnesses. And I'm also
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: talking about people you hear from in November, December, and
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: January of sixty three and sixty four, not people you
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: hear from from conspiracy authors in the eighties and nineties,
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: et cetera. Okay, and newly found witness Yeah, I'm not
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: gonna Just like I said, I'm not gonna If I'm
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: not gonna rely on Jack Tatum, I'm not going to
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: rely on other witnesses who aren't saying anything until nineteen
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: eighty something.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 4: It's the same thing with any other aspect of the assassination.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 4: You got the people coming out of the world work
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 4: years later, right, you know, can you really trust for
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: what rights say or what they saw everybody?
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: Sometimes sometimes people like to insert themselves into the story
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: so they can get their fifteen minutes of fame. And
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: Gordon Arnold, ed Hoffman, Beverly Oliver, you know. But that's
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: a whole other topic. So and we can talk about
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: that too later if you want to. So, regarding these
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: thirteen witnesses, who I consider the real thirteen witnesses, Okay,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Burton, Bill Smith were interviewed by the FBI, Neither
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: one of them can say it was Oswald. But they
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: didn't say it wasn't Oswald. They just couldn't say that
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: it was Oswald. Okay, that's Jimmy Burton, Bill Smith, Benevetez
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: this pickup truck. He couldn't say it was Oswald. In fact,
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: he was asked to go to a lineup that night
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: and decline saying I couldn't. I wouldn't be of any help.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: I can't. So he's not saying is not Oswald. He
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: just didn't. He's he felt like I couldn't say one
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: way or the other. And then you have Helen Markham,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: who attended lineup that night, did pick Oswald. You have
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis who attended line up that night,
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: they picked Oswald, both of them. Did you have WILLIAMS.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: Scaggan's who attended line up on Saturday. Oswald was the
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: man in the lineup before he starts creating this commotion
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: and making a scene, you know, a mess of things.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: And so Skaggin said it was Oswald. Genyard and Callaway
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: attended a lineup on Friday night. Both of them picked Oswald. Now,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: the four guys at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company, three
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: of them Warren Reynolds, Pat Patterson, and Harold Warren Reynolds,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: Pat Patterson, Harold Russell. Those three told the FBI they
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: were opinion that the man was Oswald. The fourth guy, O. J. Lewis,
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: said he wasn't sure one way or the other. So
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: we have thirteen witnesses, and we have Jimmy Burton, Bill Smith,
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: Benavetas and L. J. Lewis. You have these four guys.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: These four witnesses, they weren't sure the guy was Oswald,
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: but they didn't say he was in Oswald. The other
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: nine witnesses, either through the lineups or FBI statements, said
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: basically the guy was Oswald. But you have zero of
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: the thirteen saying it was in Oswald. So you have
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: four people in different nine set it was Oswald. Zero
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: of the thirteen said it wasn't Oswald.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't I'm not a fan of the lineups situation.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: So let me tell you this. Jim Levell, Jim Level
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: was responsible for most of those lineups and this guy, so,
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: like I told earlier, I sat in his living room
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: for six hours. One of the things I made a
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: point to ask him. Like I said, we talked about
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: the assassination for the first hour. The last five hours
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: that he was telling us police stories that he was
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: loving it. Every time he would finish the story, we
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: were like should we leave as he getting tired, and
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: he would pause for ten or fifteen seconds of awkward silence,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: and then he would say, let's see that. I tell
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: you guys the one about and they'd go again for
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: another fifteen minutes. He was loving it. And of course
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: we're hanging on his every word, so he can talk
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: about whatever he wants. But one of the things I
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: asked him in that first hour when we were talking
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: about the assassination the lineups, and he specifically stated that,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: obviously we thought there was going to be a trial,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: we conducted the lineups in a manner in which they
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: would be the identifications would be allowed at a trial.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: In other words, Jim Levell verifies basically that the lineups
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: were legitimate. And Jim Levell was a fourteen year at
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: the time of the assassination. He's a fourteen year veteran
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: of the Dallas Police Department, including five years working as
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: a detective for Will Fritz and the Homicide and Robbery Bureau. Okay,
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: the guy knew how to conduct lineups that were going
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: to stand up in court, Jim Levell felt, and he
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: told me this personally, and I'm sure he says in
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: interviews on YouTube that the lineups were perfectly fine. There's
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: nothing wrong with the lineups, and so that's what I'm
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna you know, he could have said the lineups
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: were jacked up and I would accept it, But he
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: said they were perfectly legitimate. So I'm accepting that. Regardless
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: of which way he would have put it, I'm going
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: to accept his word either way. He says the lineups
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: were legitimate because we conducted them in a manner because
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: the last thing we wanted is for the lineup identifications
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: to be thrown out, not allowed in court.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I'm just saying from the from just my
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 3: viewpoint of thinking. You know, and I've seen the lineup photos.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: You know what photos?
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: Have you seen the lineup photos?
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: Yep? But which are you? Please tell me that you're
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: not talking about the men wearing suits, suit and tie. No, okay, good,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: because that's a super that that's a you know, Oswald
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: stuck in the middle of those guys. So let me
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: let me tell you about that real quick. And you
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: probably know this, but you know a lot of conspiracy advocates,
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: not knowing any better, they'll post the photo of the
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: two men actually wearing a suit and tie. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: then Oswald's and Oswald and then you got the Don Abels,
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: the clerk wearing that pest. What happened was in June
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: sixty four, the FBI visited these men who appeared in
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: the lineups with Oswald, and they wanted they took the
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: picture of those three men because they just wanted to
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: know what the guys looked like who were in the lineup.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: And suit and tie, suit and tie in a sweater
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: vest happened to be what these guys were wearing or
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: whatever Abels was wearing in that photo that that afternoon
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: they were visited by the FBI. They they're not trying
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: to represent what they were wearing in the lineups. As
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: a matter of fact, if you read their testimony, Perry, Clark,
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: and Abels, the Texas Perry and Clark and then Don
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: Abeles was a jail clerk, all three of them tell
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: you what they were wearing during the lineups. None of
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: them were in a suit, jacket, a tie. So conspiracy
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: advocates who don't know any better, they'll post that photo.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: Look at Oswald and a T shirt next to a
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: guy and a suit. Of course, you're gonna pick Oswald,
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: and that would be a valid point that that's indeed
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: how the lineups bruise face. Yeah. Now, I will tell
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: you that I wish that they would have. I wish
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: that they would have put a band aid on Oswald's
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: bruce face and put a bandit on all the other
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: guys in the lineup as well.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 4: I wish they would have come there and as you know,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 4: you have a disheveled, beat up looking dude and some
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 4: rady ass clothes and then two cops and a jail clerk.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, but remember, but remember one thing. When these
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: witnesses are are when these four men are walked out
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: and prayed in front of these witnesses, the witnesses are
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: not asked pick the guy who most resembled the guy
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: you saw. You saw either shoot the copper room. But
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: the witnesses were not asked to pick the guy who
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: most resembled.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: The man saw.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: They were asked, is the man you saw among these four?
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 2: So regardless of what the other three guys might have
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: looked like, they they're not gonna pick Oswald because he
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: looked most like the guy they saw. Because the other
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: the other guys in the lineup were dressed natter than Oswald.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: They're picking Oswald because he was the guy they saw,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: and that's an important distinction to remember.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 4: Maybe maybe, but thinking about Helen Markham and how hysterical
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: she was and you know, dragging her down there and
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 4: to view a lineup at that point, I just don't
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 4: know how accurate she would have been, because you know,
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 4: if you're if you just witness a cop getting killed,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 4: you know, even now you are me or her or whoever,
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 4: and they bring you down to a lineup, they bring
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 4: four guys out and maybe in your head somewhere you're
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 4: not really sure, but you know it's got to be
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 4: one of these guys or else they wouldn't be showing
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 4: me this lineup, you know.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: But again, but Hella Markham wasn't asked you.
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 3: Want to identify somebody for them, And you know.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, I hear you. You would you would like
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: to think of witness wouldn't take that stance. You would
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: like to think a witness would say, Hey, the man
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: I saw is none of those four, So I'm not
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: going to pick a guy out just for the sake
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: of picking a guy. You know, you would like to
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: think a witness isn't going to point to someone innocent,
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: you know, when they're going to go to life, you know,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: death row. But you know he's Here's the interesting part.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: So Helen Markham did testify, you know, the number two
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: man was the man I saw shoot the officer. Yet
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: Benavidez was fifteen feet away and said, I can't go
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: to a lineup because I feel like I can't make
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: an identification. And it's just interesting, how, like you said
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: a minute ago, one witness is different than the next,
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: and none of us know what kind of a witness
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: will make until we're in that situation.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: But all right, so now we're here.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 4: So when Markham says after the policeman was shot, she
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 4: went over to him and nobody else was around, and
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 4: he was still alive and she was consoling him, does
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 4: that make any sense whatsoever?
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: Well, so something that a lot of conspiracy advocates will
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: say because they don't really read Markham's testimony, as they'll say, hello,
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: Marham says she talked to tipp It for twenty minutes.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: It's not what she says. She says she was trying
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: to talk to him, but he never said anything back,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: so she's not talking to Tippet for twenty you know,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: they like to make it sound like she was having
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: a conversation with Tippet. She never said that. But what
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: happened was that, So Frank Somino, he came out of
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: his house after Ozwal was already gone, and he goes
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: over to tip It along with Markham, and both of
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: them said that, you know, Frank, Frank Somino said an
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: affidavit or statement to the FBI one or the other
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: that basically Tippitt moved slightly and groaned. Now this is
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: after oz was already gone. Tippett did this, and this
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: is according to Frank Semino. Now again Somino gets out there,
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: Oswald's gone. So this is at least, you know, at
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: least forty five seconds after the shooting. And here we
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: have Tippet moving slightly and groaning. So it's like agonal
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: respirations is what they call it. Maybe what Tippa did
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: and perhaps there was something like that, and maybe Markham
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: was trying to talk to him. I can't explain Markham
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: saying anything more like you know, first of all, we
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: all we know Markham wasn't with him for twenty minutes,
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: you know, So she did make us a few comments
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: that even as a loan nutter, which I am take
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: issue with. You know, she wasn't alone with Tippe, For
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: she wasn't alone with Tippe for even a minute and
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: a half. Frank Semeno was there immediately, not to mention
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: other people. And you got Benavitaz in his truck, so Benavitas,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: he tells Eddie Barker for the Warren Report CBSTV, Part three,
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven. He's interviewed by Eddie Barker and Benavita says,
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: you know, he's duck it in his truck, And bena
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: Vita says, I watched him go around the corner and
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: then I sat there for a second or two that
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: I got out. How long does it take to go
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: from the corner from the patrol car to the corner
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty five seconds? Benavitaz is out of a yeah,
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: Ben a Vetaz is out of his truck at thirty seconds.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: So Markham is not alone with Tippet for any length
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: of time unless you simply didn't see. Maybe she doesn't
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: see Benavitas on the bike because she's kneeling down. If
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: there's anything she can do for Tippet. I'm not a
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: warn I'm not a hell of markhum apologist. I'm just
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: telling you what she saw and what she said.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, it's it's it's the things like don't
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 4: match with what Virginia Davis says about immediately after the shots.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 4: And then I was talking mat about the number of shots.
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 4: Nobody like, I think out of all the witnesses, one
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 4: person got the amount of shots right, like four shots.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: Uh, but but was there five shots? There could have
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: been five shots and one shot missed. That's possible as well.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 4: And usually revolver a handgun, you know, you can pull
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 4: the trigger a whole lot faster than when you if
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 4: you're working a boat on a rifle, you know, you
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 4: can bang bang, you know Oswald.
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: Oswald could have fired four or five shots across that
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: hood in two two and a half seconds at the longest.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So, but it doesn't matter what the witness has
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: said regarding how many shots they heard, because we know
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis, who both said they heard
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: two shots. We know the wrong because Tippet had four
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: bullets removed from his body. You know, if you got
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: the uniform button bullet. So we know that they're wrong,
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: and therefore, I mean, what what what does It doesn't
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: regarding Oswald's guilt. It doesn't matter what witnesses say regarding
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: how many shots they heard. It doesn't mean anything at all. Really,
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: I'm just.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 4: Saying what they immediately said. As far as right after
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 4: the shooting. I don't think they ever said they saw
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 4: Helen Markham with the you know, down by the cop
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 4: or anybody else.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: You know, So I guess it all depends on how
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: quick Helen Markham went to the body after Oswald went
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: around the corner. Are are you implying that Markham wasn't
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: there or no.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 4: I'm just I'm just implying that maybe I don't believe
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 4: she ran over to office her tippet at all, Okay,
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 4: if she was so scared and hysterical about what just happened.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, those are the people around, I mean.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 4: And she's going to be the only one that goes
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 4: over there, but nobody else go over there or I
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 4: don't know, there's just so many different Do you know.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: Who Franklin Griffin is? Franklin Griffin, by any chances, he's
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: a witness that Yeah, he's on Facebook, He's in the
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: Facebook groups. He's a witness that came. He was there,
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: you know. He he was working for the construction company
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: at the corner of tenth and Denver, the one right
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: across the street from the front yard. Jimmy Burton Bill
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: Smith were in and he said he went down to
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: the scene moments later and he saw the waitress there.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: I think he's what he said was he saw the
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: nurse there. He mistook Helen Markham's waitress uniform for a
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: nurse's uniform. So if you believe Frank Franklin, if you
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: believe Franklin Griffin, then he is a witness who sees
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: Helen Markham there. And uh yeah, I'm not going to
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: I don't rellow him one way or the other. But
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying he does say he saw the he
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: saw the nurse there, but he's talking about Markham.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Frank is not a Witiness you asked you
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 4: about what you thought about them finding a wallet at
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 4: the Tippet scene.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, okay, yeah, we know that a wallet is
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: being filmed. Ron ron Ryland captured. There's the wallet being studied. However,
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: so the wallet story goes that I do believe that
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: they're looking at a wallet in the film footage, even
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: though I'm not one hundred percent convinced it. It could
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: be some kind of a tippet notebook or something, you know,
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: but I believe gone to my head it's a wallet
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: because Ron Rieland is narrating when he's back at the
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: offices and it's on television. He's narrating to the audience
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: what's going on, and he says, there's the officer's wallet,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: because he thought it was tip of the wallet. So anyway,
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: I do believe there's a wallet. Here's the thing. So
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 2: the story goes from FBI agent Bob Barrett that he
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: gets to the scene and Captain Westbrook's holding a wallet
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: right there at the scene, and Westbrook, knowing that Bob
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: Barrett was with the division of the FBI that worked
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: with hardened criminals as opposed to white collar crimes, Westbrook asked, Hey,
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: do you know an Ole's Water or a Hodel, a
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 2: lee Oswater, aj Hodell and Westbrook. I'm sorry, Barrett says, no,
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: I've never heard those names. And according to Barrett, I
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: think it was a nineteen eighty three newspaper interview when
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: this story comes out, that is when it first comes out,
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: but then it's also mentioned by James Hosty and his
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: book as Simon Oswald I think in ninety six. So
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: here's the thing regarding the wallet in those identifications. So
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: the answer to the question is, yes, they're looking at
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: a wallet in my opinion, but is it a wallet
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: that had Oswald and high Dell identifications in it? That's
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: the million dollar question. Okay. Now, if Captain Westbrook is
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: really holding a wallet, and he asked Bob Barrett right
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: there at the scene, hey, do you know the names
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: Lee Oswald or Ajhdell? And Bear says no. If that's
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 2: indeed happening, then why isn't If they suspect this is
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: the wallet of the cop killer, why isn't his name
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: put out over the police radio waves, like you know,
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: APB be on the lookout for an Oswalter or a Hodell.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: That never happened. Okay, And don't you think they would
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: have don't you think that Westbrook would have done that
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: if he's standing there at Tippets patrol car holding the
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: killer's wallet, don't you think they would have put it
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: over the police radio to the dispatcher who they can
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: put it out to everyone. So let me tell you this.
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: After Oswald was this, Bark wasn't up to no good
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: that day. Yes, after Oswald was arrested, okay, they took
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: him back to headquarters, and then all the officers involved
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: in the arrest were at They were inside Captain Westbrook's office,
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: a small office considering how many men were back in there,
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: and this is where they were filling out there. Agress
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: reports the wallet was there in Westbrook's office at this moment.
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: Barrett is inside Westbrook's office at this moment. It's Westbrook's office,
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: so Westbrook is there. Maybe Barrett is not a liar.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: Maybe he's simply in nineteen eighty three, which is twenty
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: years later, is simply misremembering when it was okay that
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: Westbrook asked him about the names Oswald and Hidel inside
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: the wallet. So I'm not saying Barrett's a liar. But
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying is maybe he's mis remembering think and
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: that it happened at the patrol card Tipton Patton, when
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: the reality is it happened back inside Westbrook's office. Because
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: we know Westbrook, Barrett, and the wallet were all three
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: present inside inside Westbrook's office at this time. You see
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: what I'm getting That not saying for sure that's what happened,
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: but I'm saying something to at least consider if.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 4: It was a wallet, because I mean, it does make
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 4: sense if your Tippet, you're pulling up on somebody on
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 4: the side of the road, you say, hey, buddy, come here,
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 4: let me see some I D somebody reaches into their wallet.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: And here you go, and.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 4: Tippet's like, well this this this guy gets out of
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 4: his car, and then I was like, oh shit, boom.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 4: But that would mean that Lee Harvey Oswald had two
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 4: wallets on him, because he had one on him when
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 4: he was arrested at the theater and he dropped and
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 4: and Tippets got the one at the scene.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: Or you know, a hardcore load utter could simply say, okay,
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: so they found Ozal's wallet at the scene, further proof
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: that he killed Tippet.
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 3: Right, But then they're lying about finding one later.
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: Right, because when Oswold was arrested For those who don't know,
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: when Ozo was arrested at the Texas Theater, they got
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: him in the car they're driving to headquarters and Bob Carroll.
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: I believe it was Bob Carrol. Jared Hill asked for identification,
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: and he told Bob Carroll who was in the back seat.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: Jared Hill's in the front seat, Bob Carroll's in the
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: back seat. He pulls the he pulls the wallet out
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: of Oswald's pocket, and that's when they had this whole discussion.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: So yeah, the official story is that Oswald's wallet was
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: pulled out of his back pants pocket when they were
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: in the car driving back to headquarters after the arrest
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: of the theater.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 3: So yeah, yep.
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 2: And my point is, my point is it's a very
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: good possibility that Baart is simply misremembering and that same
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: wallet that was taken from Oswald inside the car ends
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: up at Westbrook's office. And we do know for a
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: fact that Westbrook, Bear, and the wallet were all three
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: in Westbrook's office at the same time. And maybe that's
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: what it was. Maybe that's when it was discussed.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 4: It's possible, you know, or somebody who was impersonating Oswald
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 4: had a wallet with Ozwanda identification in it.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: Well, fiction is fun. Fiction is fun. Hey, listen, Man
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: in building shoots man in car is boring. It is
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: so it is, so you gotta juice it up a
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: little bit. So regarding the evidence against Oswald, though, Okay,
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: so I've already told you about the witness there's thirteen witnesses.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: Nine of them said it was Oswald. And by the way,
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: one of the witnesses that I say of the nine
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: is Warren Reynolds. And a lot of people say, well,
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: Warren Reynolds, he didn't say it was oswalduntil he got
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: shot in the head. You know, then he says it
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: was Oswald. Okay, But here's the thing, and this is
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: what these people don't realize. Two days before he was shot,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: he's interviewed by the FBI. I think it was January
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: twentyeth nineteen sixty four. The report comes out on January
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: twenty first, and then he shot on the twenty second.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: He told the FBI two days before he shot that
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 2: he was of the opinion that the man he saw
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: was Oswald.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 4: I thought that's why he the conspiracy is. That's why
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 4: he was shot, is because he thought it was Oswald.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: Well, if you're the conspirators, you wanted to say that
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: talking to General Walker, Yeah, so interesting hard about warn Renolds.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: He was like Bridge partners or something with General Walker,
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: which is a fascinating, crazy coincidence kind of story.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 3: Partners.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: You could add the Warren Reynolds and relationship with General
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: Walker to the whole street things that make it go huh,
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: you know so so. But anyway, regarding the evidence against Oswald,
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: besides the eyewitnesses, nine said it was Oswald, four said
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: they weren't sure, zero said it was not Oswald. All right,
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: now you have Oswald and Jefferson Boulevard. He gets down
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: to the next block and he goes behind the Texaco station. Well,
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: Robert Brock was a mechanic at the Texaco station and
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: his wife Mary Brock, was there. Mary Brock they both
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: saw the guy wearing a jacket disappear, run past them,
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: and disappear behind the Texico station. The FBI visited these two,
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: these two folks, and Robert Brock said he wasn't sure
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: if it was Oswald or not. Mary Brock said it
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: was oswaldt Okay, So now you can if you count
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: these two. I usually I don't count these with the
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 2: other thirteen because the other thirteen are actually shooting witnesses.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: The guy's running with the gun. Mary Brock and Robert
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: Brock Oswold already had the gun tucked away in his
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: waistband at this point or inside the jacket pocket. But
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: so they're not witnesses to the tip of shooting, but
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 2: they are witnesses to a man fleeing wearing a jacket
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: going behind the Texaco station. Now here's the interesting part.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: So remember what I told you earlier about Jimmy Burton
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: Bill Smith. They were a block to the east of
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: the shooting scene. After Oswald disappears around the corner, they
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: go down to Tippet's body and they stayed there momentarily,
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 2: and then they decide they're going to go off in
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: search of the killer, so they go over to the
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: corner and they start heading south on Patten. Jimmy Burke
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: tells Al Chapman in that interview that you listened to
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: the other day, Jimmy Burke tells Al Chapman, you know,
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 2: we had it in our minds we were going to
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: go all the way down to Patten, I'm sorry, all
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: the way down to Jefferson, he goes. But when we
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: got halfway down, we got to the alley, we looked
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: a block to the west and we saw the guy
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: in the alley, almost down to the next street. That's
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: a direct quote. He was almost down to the next street,
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 2: which would have been Crawford. And then we lost our
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: nerves and we went back up to the scenes. It's
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: almost like once they saw him, they decided, we don't
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: want to chase him anymore. So then they went back
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: up to the scene, you know, of the patrol.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 3: Are too far gone at that point.
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a whole block. He was a whole
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: block to the west of where they were. But they
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: said he was in the alley, which, by the way,
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: would put him directly behind the Texaco station. Okay, and
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 2: we know a jacket. We know a jacket was found
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: underneath the car in the parking lot behind the text station.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: When Oswald's seen by Johnny Brewer, so Oswald is on
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: Jefferson Boulevard, a police car is approaching from behind him.
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: He ducts into the vestibule, the breezeway, whatever you want
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: to call it, the front door entrance of the Hardy
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 2: Shoe store. Johnny Brewer testified he gave an affidavit. First
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: of all, what the guy was wearing doesn't mention a jacket,
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 2: even mentions the shirt doesn't mention a jacket. And then
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: in his Warren Commission testimony, he's describeding what the guy
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: was wearing. He's asked, was he wearing a jacket? And
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: he says no. So here's my million dollar question. Remember
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: earlier in this interview, rob and I asked you, I said,
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: you know what you were talked about the color of
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: the jacket when Early and Robert saw him go out
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: the front door. If you said it was a dark one,
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: even though she told a report it was a short
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 2: great coat, let's call it. Remember what I said, it
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: could be a rainbow color jacket. I don't. Let's call
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: it red, white and blue. It doesn't matter. Here's the thing.
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: What happened to the jacket Ozwald was wearing when he
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: walked out of the front door of the rooming house
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: by the time seen by Johnny Brewer. Why forget Tithan Patton,
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: Forget the murder of a police officer, forget the jacket
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 2: found under the car, forget all that stuff. We know
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 2: he left the rooming house wearing a jacket, regardless of
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: what color you want to think it was. You even
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: acknowledged he was wearing one because you said it was
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: dark or black or whatever. You said, Well, she.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 4: Said it was a dark jacket. But here's my thinking
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 4: on that bill, that that shirt could have been mistaken
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 4: for a jacket.
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: Except one thing. She said that he was zipping it
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: up as he.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 3: Went out the front door, right so, and it was
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 3: a button up.
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 2: The shirt was a button up. She said, he was
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: zipping it up as he went out the front door.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: So he's leaving in a jacket, she told the reporters,
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: a short gray coat, regardless of what color it was. Okay,
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: the million dollar question is if you forget Tithan Patten,
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: forget the police officer, forget the jacket, foun under the car,
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: Let's talk just about the rooming house and Oswald on
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: Jefferson Boulevard, part of the shoe store, forget everything else.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: Why is he leaving the rooming house in a jacket?
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: He's in front of the shoe store with that one.
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, why it's it If you don't believe Oswald
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: killed Tippet, you have to reconcile that question. You have
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 2: to do it, honestly. You can't sit there start arguing, well,
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: maybe he was wearing a shirt when he left the
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: rooming house and early Roberts half blinded. One I mistook
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 2: the shirt for a jacket. She said he was sipping
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: it up. He went back there and got a coat,
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: was zipping it up. At least honestly deal And I'm
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: not challenge zer On. I don't mean you personally. I'm
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: saying everyone, at least honestly deal with the fact that
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 2: he left the rooming house in a jacket, and he's
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: seen by Johnny Brew without a jacket. That needs to
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: be explained. If you don't think Oswell kill Tippet.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but again I have another problem with that jacket.
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 3: Oswald was not rich.
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 4: He didn't have a lot, and he didn't have like,
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 4: you know, a shit ton of clothes, shit ton of jackets.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 4: He had a certain amount of clothes, and he reminds
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 4: me of the type of guy who probably would have
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 4: held on to things for years, you know what I mean,
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 4: until he just wore out so bad you can't wear
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 4: it anymore. But if they could have tied this jacket
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 4: that they found owned to Oswald better than what they did,
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 4: because you know, with the with the dry cleaning tags
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 4: and the California thing and the sizing, it doesn't to me.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 3: Prove that that jacket was Oswald's.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 2: Okay. So your point is you're saying Oswald's frugal, which
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 2: which I will agree with. Yes, okay, But so let
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: me ask you this and we'll get back to the
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: jacket in just a second. If you agree with me
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: that Oswald is frugal, okay, then the guy never takes
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: a cab. He's always taking a bus. I don't know
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 2: the price is back in nineteen sixty three, but imagine
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: he could get on a bus and drop a dime
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: in the slot, and he can all across town on
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: a dime, maybe fifteen cents. Why, all of a sudden,
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, does he say, you
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: know what, I'm gonna spend ninety five cents on a cab.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: And he made a dollar twenty five an hour, so
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: he's gonna spend almost an hour's wage, which in today's terms,
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: what's minimum wages these days fifteen dollars an hour. So
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: someone who never takes a cab is also going to
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: spend fourteen bucks on a cab. You know, why does Oswald,
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 2: who never takes cabs, all of a sudden this particular
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 2: day gets in a cab in front of the Greyhound station.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 3: He was in movement fast enough, but he would have
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 3: just kind of.
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: An I feel like he just would have caught another
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: bush that wasn't even that wasn't even the Beckley line.
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: That was actually the Marsalist line that he got on.
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: That there's other buses. My point is to me, it's
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 2: to me anyway, it's suspicious that all of a sudden
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: he decides to spend money on a cab when he's
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: never done that before. He's frugal. Now regarding the jacket,
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: so you realize that. So there's an FBI report and
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: Dale Myers and Todd Vaughan where the National Archives sometime
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 2: back in the nineties, and they came upon this report
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 2: where there was fiber evidence found inside the sleeves of
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: the jacket. Are you wear this or not? Because I
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: can explain it so basically, Okay, so the jacket that
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: was found underneath the car behind the station, Okay, there
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 2: were microscopic fibers inside the sleeves of that jacket. Okay. Now,
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: now when you test, when you compare fibers forensically, you
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: do so based on three characteristics, color, shade, and twist.
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 2: Those are the only three characteristics that you can use.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 2: There's no there's no fourth, and there's not just two,
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: there's three, No more, no less. They removed test fibers
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: from the shirt Ozwald was wearing when he was arrested. Okay,
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 2: they can figure that they compared the fibers found in
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: the sleeves of the jacket with fibers found removed from
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 2: Oswald's shirt that he was wearing when he was arrested.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: These two separate batches of fibers had the exact same color,
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: they had the exact same shade, and they had the
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: exact same twist. Okay, they were a perfect match. Now,
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 2: that doesn't prove that Oswald was wearing that jacket, but
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: what it does prove is whoever was wearing the jacket
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: was wearing a shirt just like Oswald's. Okay. Incidentally, Incidentally, incidentally,
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: the rifle that was found up on the sixth floor,
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: by the way, there was a toft of fibers, microscopic
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: fibers that were removed that they were found inside a
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: crevice between the metal butt plate and the wooden stock. Now,
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: the wooden stock means the rifle, the metal butt plate
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: FBI find this or was the Dallas Police the Uh. Uh,
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 2: that's a good question. That's a I can't remember if
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: it was day or if it was the FBI. But uh,
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 2: there was a toft of fibers that was found in
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 2: that crevice between the wooden stock and the metal butt plate. Now,
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 2: these fibers were also compared to the fibers removed from
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 2: Oswald's a rest shirt and they were the same color,
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 2: the same shade, and the same twist. Uh. So it
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: doesn't prove that Ozwalod fired that rifle, but it does
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 2: prove that someone went at one point was holding that
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: rifle and fibers transferred from his shirt to that little
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 2: crevice right there on this So of that metal metal,
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 2: the metal butt plate is that little metal park that
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 2: goes up against the shoulder, the real thin strip that
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 2: crevice right there. Then you got the wooden stock. Fibers
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: were found in there and they matched the the the
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: arrest shirt. So but that that's just an oh, by
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: the way kind of thing. You know, we don't have
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: We're not talking weird to talk about tippet, not necessarily
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: the stuff on the sixth floor.
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 3: Then we're gonna get in the chain of custody.
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: And when now regarding chain of custody of the jacket, okay,
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: a lot of conspiracy advocates will like to say, well,
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 2: there's no chain of custody for that jacket. First of all,
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: there are initials on the jacket. By the way, there's
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: several initials on the jacket. But anyway, here's how this
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 2: would have happened, rob had there been a trial in
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four, Bill Alexander, the assistant district attorney or
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 2: Henry Wade, they would have went to Captain Westbrook, who
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 2: is the guy who pulled the jacket out from underneath
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 2: the car, and they would have said, what'd you do
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: with the jacket? I gave it to Officer X. They
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 2: then would have went to Officer X and they would
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 2: have said what did you do with the jacket after
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 2: Westbrook gave it to you? And he would have said, well,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: I turned it over to Officer Why. They then go
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 2: to Officer Why and they said what did you do
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 2: with the jacket after Officer X gave it to you?
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 2: He would have said, I gave it to Pete Barnes
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: in the crime lab. Point being, had there been a trial,
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 2: all of this chain of the chain of possession of
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 2: the jacket would have been worked out. It was or
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: doubt because the guy was killed two days later. There
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 2: was never going to be a trial, so they didn't
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 2: work out a chain of custody on the jacket that
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: would have been worked out if there had been a trial.
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: Let me put it to you this way. Let's pretend
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 2: Kennedy was never assassinated. Let's pretend that we're simply talking
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 2: about a case of a cop who got killed back
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty three. Okay, And let's say therefore, because
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 2: it wasn't an assassin that killed the cop, Jack Ruby
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: doesn't kill this guy, and this guy actually goes to
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: trial in nineteen sixty four. So let's say we're just
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: reading about a killing of a police officer that happened
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty four Dallas, Texas. Right, we're gonna read
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: about the trial. One of the things we're gonna read
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: about in that trial is that jacket that was found
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 2: that had fibers in it matching the shirt that he
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: was arrested in. And there's gonna be a chain of
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: possession of that jacket because, as I just explained to you,
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: Westbrook x Y and Pete Barnes would have been on
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 2: that chain of possession. It would have been squared away
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: had there been a trial. When there's not going to
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: be a trial, We're not worried about the I'm saying
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: the Dallas Police, We're not worried about chain of possession
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: of this jacket anymore because there's not gonna be a trial.
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: You understand what I'm saying.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 4: I do, I do, But I do have a question
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 4: too about you know, the homicide clearance rate, wades conviction rate.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 4: You know, they seem very very high when compared to
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 4: other departments and and and and districts. And there sadly
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 4: a lot of allegations of falsifying evidence and planning things,
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 4: and you know, you know what I'm saying. So I
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 4: mean not to say that it happened in this case,
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 4: but you could see where there may have been succeeds
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 4: being sown.
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so uh yeah, Unfortunately Henry Wade leaves the country.
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 2: You know, in cases they could overturn, you know, due
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: to DNA and things like that. In fact, I don't
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know the name, but I know a uh,
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: I think they just just like a month or two ago. Uh,
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: one of the guys who got executed was actually exonerated
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: by you know, and that one of the guys who
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 2: was sentenced to he was prosecuted by Henry Wade, and
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 2: he got exonerated like two months ago, and he actually
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: was put on the lectureture like in sometime back in
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: the fifties or sixties or whatever it was. So the
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 2: guy died for like either raping or murdering a woman,
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: and it turns out out he didn't do it. We
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: know for a fact he didn't do it. And that sucks.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: You know, it's heartbreaking to read that. You know, the
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 2: family held a press conference, you know, and things like that.
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: But so, yeah, Henry Wade had a bad track record
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: for that, and you know, I don't know what to
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: say about that. I'm not I'm also not a Henry
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: Wade apologist. But let me ask you this, regardless of
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 2: anything that Wade may have done, regarding any you know,
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: shenanigans that you may be speaking of, how does that
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 2: change the fact that, for example, Ted Callaway swore up
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 2: and down that the man he saw a running down
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 2: pat with a gun was Lee Harvey Oswald. That's not
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: related to Henry Wade whatsoever.
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 3: But I can say I can say, you know, eyewitnesses
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 3: are very often mistaken when something like that happens. You
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 3: see a guy run by you, how how sure are you?
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 3: But when you don't even understand what's going on at
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 3: that time that that's the guy you saw. I mean,
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 3: if you put yourself life situation like this, you know,
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 3: like if I'm out in my front yard mowing the yard,
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 3: you know, and I see some guy come around the
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 3: corner and he's running by me, I look over and
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 3: just glance. How sure are you?
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, some witnesses, some witnesses that can happen
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: right in front of them, and they're not gonna be
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 2: a good witnesses, and other witnesses will be great witnesses.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: It's on a case by case basis. But I'll tell
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: you this, Ted Calloway swore up and down. I actually
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 2: heard Dale Myers telephone interview with Ted Callaway, and Calloway
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: swore up and down that Oswald is the guy I saw.
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: I have no doubts. And also William Skauggins now Dale Myers,
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 2: in his book with Malice, mentions an interview that he
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: does with Jim Level. Jim Levell told Dale Myers. Now, yeah,
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 2: this is if we're sitting in a courtroom right now,
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: this is hearsay. But for you and I doing this
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: lone Guming podcast, Jim Levell told Dale Myers that William
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 2: Skaugins told Jim Levell on the Saturday lineup when OsO
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: was raising hell, what happened with the guys he was
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: in a line up with He's in the T shirt
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 2: and Skugin said to Lavelle, well, he can bitch and
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: Moan only wants to, but that's the guy I saw
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: running from the scene. These witnesses were sure they didn't
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 2: have doubts and it has nothing to do with Henry.
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean Oswald was a pretty average looking dude.
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 3: It wasn't like.
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 4: He had any outstanding features that would make him stand
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 4: out to be different than your normal, average looking early
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 4: twenties white dude, you know, with a normal haircut, no
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 4: facial hair, you know what I'm saying.
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 3: It could be one thing if he had.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 4: Giant ears or you know, a beard or something that
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 4: wasn't uncommon for that for you know, but it goes
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 4: back all these guys look the same.
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, roughly.
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 2: But it goes back to my point though, that what
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: you need to differentiate between the witnesses who attended the lineups,
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 2: Regardless of how you feel about the lineups, you need
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 2: to differentiate between were they were they there to pick
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: out the man who most resent them they saw, or
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: they're there to pick out the man they saw. You
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 2: got to you know, to me, they're there to pick
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 2: out the man they saw, and they're allowed to say
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 2: the guy I saw isn't among those four.
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, But like if Michael Pain at the time, I'd
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 4: been running around the corner and he's the one that
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 4: shot Tippet and he's the one who went by Callaway.
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: But you know what, Michael back then, Michael Payne, Larry
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 2: Kerfard Igor Vaganov, Roscolle White, none of these guys were
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 2: arrested in the Texas Theater with the gun that's responsible
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 2: for the shells that were found out the scene. So
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: let's talk about the shells for a second. You want,
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 2: is that okay? Yeah? Okay? So so I call him, Yeah,
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 2: first of all, they they're not automatic.
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: You know how a lot of conspiracy advocates will like
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 2: to argue that because Gerald Hill made a mistake. They
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 2: like to argue that Tippet was killed with an automatic
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 2: weapon and Oswald was arrested with a revolver. Well, here's
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 2: the thing, Ben Evetez. After the shooting, he's fifteen feet
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 2: away and he's looking over the door. He says, the
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 2: killer backed up onto the sidewalk, took off for the corner.
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 2: He took about five steps through a showcasing down, took
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: five more steps through another showcasing down, took off around
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 2: the corner. Barbara Davison, Virginia Davis found the other two
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 2: shellcasings around the corner on pat up against the side
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: of their house against the bushes. Now that is over
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: one hundred and fifteen feet away from the shooting scene.
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 2: Barbara Davison, Virginia Davis found two shellcasings over one hundred
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: and fifteen feet from the patrol car. The patrol car
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 2: is where showcasings would have been found if they were automatics,
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 2: because an automatic automatically injects the showcasing as each round
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: us fired. Point being, they weren't automatics. So having got
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 2: that out of the way, Benavitez found two of the showcasings,
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 2: turn them over to Officer Joe Poe right there on
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 2: the scene. Joe Poe in turn turn them over to
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 2: Pete Barnes. Now, when you look at the Tippic crime
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 2: scene photos, Pete Barnes is the guy that's dusted the
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 2: patrol car the door for prints on the passenger side.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 2: He's wearing the all black with the black at you
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 2: can see his fingerprint kits sitting right there beside him
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 2: at his feet. So Poe gets these two shellcasings from Benavitaz,
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 2: who turns them over Benavita's then I'm sorry. Poe then
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 2: turns him over to Pete Barnes. About an hour later,
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 2: with the authorities are still there, Barbara Davis finds a
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 2: showcasing up against the side of the house and she
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 2: points it out to Captain Doty, who is the captain
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 2: of the crime lab. He's Pete Barnes' boss. Dodie comes
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 2: over picks up the showcasing. That's showcasing number three. I
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: call shells one and two the two that were found
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: by Benavitas turned over to Poe. Shell number three was
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: the one found by Barbara Davis turned over to Captain
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 2: Dody and then showcasing number four Later that day, after
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 2: the authorities are gone, it's like five point thirty in
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: the evening, Virginia Davis finds a showcasing. Barbara Davis calls
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 2: the police and says, hey, my sister in law found
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: another shellcasing. So what they do is they send Captains
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: Doherty not to be I'm sorry, Detective Doherty and Detective
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 2: Brown not to be confused with Captain Dody, who picked
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 2: up the third showcasing. Dody and Doherty, I just want
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 2: to distinguish two different guys. Detective Doherty and Detective Brown.
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: They go to the Davis house and they collect that
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 2: fourth showcasing. They also took the two girls at that moment.
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 2: That's where they took him in for the lineup that night. Okay,
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: So regarding Channa Cussey of the showcasings, now, first of all,
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 2: before the Channon custody, these four showcasings were examined by
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 2: four ballistic experts Killiam Cunningham, Fraser, and Joseph Nichol the
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 2: State of Illinois. Killiam Cunningham and Fraser were FBI. Joseph
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 2: Nichol was the State of Illinois Firearms Identification Unit. All
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 2: four of these experts examined these four showcasings independent of
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: each other. They did it on their own, independent of
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 2: each other. They all four determined that all four showcasings
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 2: were fired from Oswald's revolver, the revolver that Oswald had
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: on him when he was arrested, to the exclusion of
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 2: any other weapon in the world. Okay, so point being
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 2: the weapon that Oswald had on him when he was
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: arrested was responsible for the showcasings that were found at
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: the scene. Now, a lot of conspiracy advocates they want
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: to challenge the chain of custody of these showcasings.
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 3: They say in the comments section as we speak, Okay.
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: I can't see it, so you'll have to read him
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 2: if you want to. But here's the thing they want
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: to say. Well, Joe, Poe couldn't find it. You know,
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 2: he said he marked the shells, but he couldn't find
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 2: him on the shells, So that proves that the shells
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 2: were switched out for other shells to frame Oswald. But
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: here's the thing, how do I say this in a
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: nice way. If you're got to criticize Poe, at least
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: go read his damn testimony. Because in his testimony he
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 2: says I can't be sure I marked him. He can't
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 2: be sure that even marked the shells. All right, now
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: you've got a picture this, you have the scene. They
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: haven't even caught the cop killer yet. A guy brings
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: over two shellcasings and a Winston cigarette wrapper. Are you
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 2: gonna pull him out and start scratching? You know, you're
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 2: just gonna give him to the Barnes, which is what
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: he did. He didn't mark them. Jim Level even said
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 2: he didn't mark the shells.
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't think he'd mark them at the scene.
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's the thing and that but that's where
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 2: they attacked Poe, that's where they attack and he said
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 2: he marked the shells, but they don't read his testimony
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 2: where he says I can't be sure if I even
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 2: marked him or not. Okay. And then showcasing number three,
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 2: this is the one found by Barbara Davis that Captain
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 2: Doughty came over and picked up Dody did put a
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: marking in the shell. Showcasing number four. Detective Doherty and
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 2: Detective Brown they went out that night and picked up
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: the fourth showcasing and took the two girls for the lineup.
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 2: The FBI visited both of these men and the summer
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 2: sixty four, and they presented them with all four showcasings.
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 2: Both Doherty and Captain Doughty were able to find their
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 2: marking in the showcasing they handled that day. Okay, so
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 2: had there been a trial, this would have this would
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 2: have been done in December, November or December had there
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: been a trial. But there wasn't a trial. So now
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 2: that all the fbi'sknew all this for the Warran Commission,
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 2: they had all they had all year to do it.
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 2: Had there been a trial, a chain of custody would
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: have been put in place because Captain Dody, who picked
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: up showcasing number three, the one that Barbara Davis found,
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 2: authenticates that shellcasing as the one he handled that day.
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 2: That one shellcasing is all you need to fry Oswald
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 2: because that one shellcasing linked to the exclusion of any
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 2: of the weapon in the world to Oswald's gone.
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 4: So somebody said the two David's sisters unable to identify
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 4: the shell casings later.
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 2: That's true. So so the FBI went to the Davis
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 2: girls as well. But let me ask you this question.
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 2: Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis aren't placing and marking in
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 2: a shell, So how can they tell that show from
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: any other shell, any other thirty eight Special? How could
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 2: they possibly know? They all looked, They all looked as
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 2: it's a it's a ludicrous question that a showcasing looks
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 2: like any other showcasing as long as it's thirty eight Special,
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 2: which is what these were. How are they supposed to
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 2: know when when they're presented with a showcasing that they
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 2: didn't mark, how are they supposed to know if that
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 2: was it? Well, it's not even a bit suspicious that, yes,
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 2: they could not identify the showcasing, but how was that?
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 2: What does that mean? That means nothing.
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 4: So only the hammer marks could be examined on the
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 4: on the casings or the remark on.
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 2: The primary, but also the as the Yeah, as far
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 2: as the showcasings, yes, I was getting ready talk about
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 2: the bullets.
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, with the casings, it's it's the hammer the
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 4: hammer marks, okay, yeah, because it's too small for the
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 4: thirty eight Special.
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the problem. So the gun was for thirty eight,
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 2: but a thirty eight Special was a better type of ammunition,
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 2: and it was a better quality ammunition. But the thirty
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 2: eight Special was smaller in diameter, not necessarily length, but
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: smaller in diameter, so it wasn't as round as the
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 2: thirty eight Special as the regular thirty eight. So the
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 2: problem was the revolver was fitted for thirty eight Oswald
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 2: using thirty eight specials, so as he fired off each bullet,
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 2: it travels through the barrel. Because it's smaller, it's making
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 2: it's having an inconsistent track down the barrel from one
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 2: bullet to the next. In order to ballistically link bullets
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 2: to a weapon, and they need to be they need
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: to be consistent with each other testing in comparison purposes.
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 2: But because these thirty eight Specials were small, they didn't
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 2: have the same consistent path down the barrel, so you
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 2: really couldn't test at link those bullets to that gun. However,
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 2: Joseph Nickel, the one from Illinois, was able to link,
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 2: according to him, one of the four bullets to that revolver,
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 2: even though the other three Fraser, Killing and Cunningham of
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 2: the FBI couldn't link any of the bullets to the revolver.
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 2: So you have to take you have to take Nichols
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 2: finding with the grain of salt. But maybe he was
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 2: just better at his job than they were. I don't
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 2: know what to say about it, but he, according to him,
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 2: was able to link one of the four bullets to
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 2: Ousle's revolver. But yeah, the reason why the ballistic testing
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 2: on the bullets was tough was because the bullets made
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 2: an inconsistent path down the barrel, different scratches, and because
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: they were smaller than the barrel that they were too
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 2: small for the barrel, if that makes sense.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 3: It was two different kinds of AMMO, right, yeah, yeah.
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: So the bullets, the bullets removed from Tippet's body, you
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 2: had three Winchester Western bullets and one Remington Peters bullet.
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 2: But the four showcasings that were found at the scene
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 2: were two Remington Peters and two Winchesters, So you had
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 2: two and two of the shellcasings but three and one
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 2: of the bullets. So there's obviously a mismatch right there.
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 1: So J. C.
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 2: Day was the first one that kind of was putting
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 2: this together, and he basically concluded that what if what
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 2: if a fifth shot was fired that missed? What if
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 2: Ozwoe fired five shots a set of four. Ted Calloway,
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 2: who I considered the best tipp of witness set. He
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 2: heard five shots. Now, I'm not saying as that makes
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: it a fact. I'm just telling you Ted Calloway, who
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 2: I considered the best witness SETI heard five shots. So
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 2: what if I was one fired five shots and one missed.
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 2: We had three Winchester Western bullets removed from Tippet's body
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 2: and one Remington Peters. What if the missing bullet was
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 2: never recovered was a Remington Peters. Now you have three
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 2: Winchester Western bullets and two Remington Peters. Okay, three and two.
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 2: Now what if a showcasing was never found as well?
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 2: Because we had two Winchester Western showcasings and two Riymanto
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: Peters showcasings. What if the missing showcasing was a Winchester Western.
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 2: If that's the case and its speculation, you now have
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: three Winchester Western showcasings and two Remington Peters showcasings. So
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: you now have three Winchester Western bullets, three Winchester Western casings,
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 2: two Remington Peters bullets, two Remitte Peters casings. And that
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 2: easily ties that up. But yes, you do need a
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 2: fifth shot to take place in order for that to
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 2: be the case.
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 3: Well, wasn't Oswald when he was arrested. Didn't he have
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 3: some bullets in his pocket?
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So Oswald had six bullets in the weapon, three
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 2: Remington Peter bullets, and three Winchester bullets in his front
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 2: left pants pocket. Now this has removed like two hours
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 2: after he's already in custody. He had five bullets in
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 2: his front left pants pocket. Also, Yeah, he had eleven
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: bullets on him if you want to count the five
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 2: in his pocket and the six and the gun, which,
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 2: by the way, so Tippets killed by both Remington and Winchester.
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 2: Oswald happens to have Remington and Winchester on him when
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 2: he's arrested. Is that a coincidence or you know I
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 2: was planning it on him?
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 3: Bill, You know that.
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 2: As far as the and as far as the there
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 2: being two shooters at the scene, for example, some people
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 2: like to say the Tippet was shot by two different
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 2: men because of you know, these mixed match of bullets.
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 2: So the you had Jimmy Burton, Bill Smith, you had
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 2: Benavetez is three, held of Markham is four, Williamskagans is five.
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 2: You had five people that were watching this whole thing
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 2: go down before the shooting. They saw, you know, the
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 2: guy talking to the cop, right. All five. Now, these
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 2: are the only five people that are watching this go down.
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 2: Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis were in the house at
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 2: the time, Genyard in Callaway around the corner. But these
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 2: five people are watching this go down. Jimmy Burt, Bill Smith, Benavitas,
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 2: Helen Markham, Williams Skauggins. All five of them described Tippan
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: encountering only one man. Tip it did not encounter two men.
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: Does Mark Lane to kill a cleming stuff is nonsense?
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 2: If you believe that there were two shooters, then you
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 2: got to dismiss these five witnesses who watched it happen
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 2: and said there was just one guy.
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think it was.
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 4: I was listening to Mark Lane Helen Markham telephone call,
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 4: and he was really trying to get her to say
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 4: that the guy yoused tow was heavy with bushy hair.
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 3: Right, you know what type of thing. He wasn't trying
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 3: to commit to the heavy part.
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, But you know, Mark Lane, he was acting
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 2: like a defense attorney, and that's what that's what defense
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: attorneys do. They try to raise reasonable doubt. So so
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 2: I wanted to say. There's something else that I wanted
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 2: to to discuss here, and that's the time of the
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 2: shooting being at one fifteen. Because a lot of people,
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 2: remember we talked about this earlier. A lot of people
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 2: like to argue the shoot at curred at one o
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 2: six or one oh seven, whereas I believe it was
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 2: at one fifteen to one sixteen. Okay, let me tell
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 2: you a couple things about that. So, uh, Mary Wright,
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 2: she was interviewed by Georgia Patricia Nash in nineteen sixty four,
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 2: and she told them that when she heard the shots,
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 2: who's Barbara right? Mary Wright? Okay? So, Mary Wright and
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 2: Frank Wright was a married couple who lived in the
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 2: duplex that was shared by the front yard of Jimmy
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 2: Burton Bill Smith were in ok They were a block
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 2: east at tenth and Denver, and they were in the house,
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 2: Mary Wright and Frank Wright. They heard the shots. They're
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 2: not witnesses to the shooting, but they heard the shots.
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 2: Frank Wright went out in the street, looked down the street,
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 2: but Mary Wright called the police.
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 3: So she called the police us.
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 2: She used the word immediately when you watch her, when
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 2: you listen to her, or you read the transcripts of
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: her interview with Georgia Patricia Nash. Okay, So Mary Wright
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 2: calls the police immediately, Let's go down to Barbara Davis.
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 2: So the Davis girls, they're in the house to hear
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 2: the shots. They go to the front door. After the
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 2: killer goes around the corner, Barbara Davis goes back inside
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 2: and calls the police. So Barbara Davis is calling the police,
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 2: probably thirty thirty five to forty five seconds after the shooting. Okay,
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 2: maybe maybe a minute at the most. She's on the
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 2: phone with the police. L. J. Lewis was at the
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 2: Johnny Reynolds Motor Company a block south of the shooting scene.
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 2: Now that's the one where you had Harold Russell, Pat Patterson,
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 2: Warren Reynolds, and O. J. Lewis L J. Lewis. So, Warren,
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 2: Reynolds and pat Patterson decide they're going to follow the
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 2: cop killer along the street on the other side of
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 2: the street. So they follow him for a block. At
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 2: Warren reynolds suggestion, Harold Russell, he leaves the Carlot goes
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 2: up the scene, up to the scene of the shooting
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 2: and see what happened. The fourth guy, l J. Lewis
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 2: goes back inside and calls the police. So L J.
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 2: Lewis calls the police probably two minutes after the shooting,
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 2: because he calls the police after the killer turns on Jefferson.
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 2: Now let's go to TF Bowleie. He gets on the
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 2: squad car radio at one seventeen to report the shooting
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 2: to the police dispatcher. Now, when you listen, or when
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 2: you listen to the audio of that report by TF Bowley,
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 2: or you read the transcripts, as soon as TF Bullie says, hello,
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 2: police operator, has been a shooting out here. You hear
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 2: the dispatcher say where's it at? And Bowleie basically says,
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 2: on Tenth Street, between Marcellos and Beckley. You know, he
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 2: didn't know exactly where he was, but he was right.
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 2: It was on tenth and it was between Marsalis and Beckley.
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 2: He said, it's a police officer, somebody shotting. What's the
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 2: first thing you hear the dispatcher Murray Jackson. What's the
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 2: first thing you hear him do? He calls out for
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 2: seventy eight, something he wouldn't have done if he already
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 2: knew Tippett was killed. So Jackson at this moment is
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 2: the first time he realizes that JD. Tippet has been shot,
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 2: because he calls out for seventy eight once he learns
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 2: that it's on tenth Street in oak Cliffe, between Marsalis
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 2: and Beckley. First thing he does is calls out for
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 2: seventy eight, and if you listen to the tapes, you
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 2: hear it. But then then he calls after for seventy
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 2: eight a second time, and then you can hear Bullie
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 2: say hello, did you get that? Did you get that?
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 2: And then Jackson calls out for seventy eight a third time.
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 2: My point is this, at one seventeen Murray Jackson, because
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 2: that's when Bullie made his radiar report if you trust
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 2: the police tapes, which I do, but at one seventeen,
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 2: Murray Jackson is being made aware for the first time
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 2: that Tippet has been shot. We know that Mary Wright,
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 2: for example, called the police immediately after hearing the shots,
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 2: yet Murray Jackson is not aware of Mary Wright's phone
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 2: call yet. How long do you think it would take
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty three to get through to the police
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 2: to report the shooting. So let's say you know back
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 2: then it was no nine one one. So Mary Wright
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 2: goes to her phone. She dials zero for operator. Operator
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 2: gets on. She says, I need the police department. She
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 2: gets transferred to the Dallas Police department. Dallas Police answers
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 2: the phone. She says, there's been a shooting. I want
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 2: to report out here in ocliff, and then she gives
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 2: him the location of the shooting. How long do you
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 2: think that whole thing would have taken? The time between
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 2: the times she picks up the phone to make the
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 2: call and the time she tells someone at Dallas Police
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 2: that the shooting occurred. What's your estimate of back in
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty three, how long do you think that would
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 2: have taken?
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 3: Maybe a minute tops?
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 2: Fair enough? I agree, minute tops. If the shooting occurred
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 2: at one o six or one oh seven, then Mary
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 2: Writers making that phone call at one oh seven or
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 2: one oh eight, the dispatcher, Murray Jackson, should have known
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 2: a shooting by one oh nine, because what happens is
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 2: the person at the police department it gets transferred that
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 2: they put the information on a note, It goes on
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 2: a dicta belt down to the dispatcher. So Jackson would
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 2: have known by one oh nine. Being generous one o nine,
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 2: one to ten. Jackson would have known about the shooting.
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 2: Yet he doesn't know until one seventeen when TF Bowie
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 2: tells him.
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 3: Well something about TF Bowlie. Didn't he himself put the
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 3: shooting earlier than that?
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So what? So what Bully does when he gets
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 2: out of his car, he said, he looked at his
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 2: watch and noted that the time was one ten, and
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 2: then he goes over to the body, looks down at
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 2: the body. He notices that there's nothing he can do
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 2: for him. He goes to the radio Benavitas, he gets,
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 2: gets Benavitas out of the way, and he gets on
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 2: it and reports it. So how long do you think? Now?
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 2: Bully tells us what he did. He pulled up on
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 2: a scene. He walked over to the patrol car. Notice
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 2: there's nothing he can do for the officer. He's got
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 2: a bullet woin in his temple, and at the temple
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 2: of the bullet wind to the temple station of the sky.
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 2: Everybody can see it. He goes over, moves Benavitas away
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 2: from the radio, and he gets on the radio reports
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 2: of shooting. So Bullie's reporting the shooting. Within a couple
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 2: of minutes, after arriving, I would say, because bully, he
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 2: tells us what he did, and nowhere does he say
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 2: I stood around for five or six minutes or eight
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 2: minutes before I finally made the report on the radio.
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 2: He tells us what he did. I got out of
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 2: the car, my watch said one ten, I walked over
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 2: to the body. Then I got on the radio and
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 2: reported it. He's reported to shooting within a minute or
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 2: two of arriving, Okay, point being he's his what so
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 2: and he's reporting to shooting at one point seventeen, So
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 2: he arrives like at one fifteen, unless you believe he
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 2: stood there for seven minutes before he gets on the radio.
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 2: But he tells us what he did. He doesn't stand
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 2: around for seven minutes. Therefore, you either have to accept
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 2: the police tapes, which what I just now said about
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 2: Mary Wright calling the police immediately. You have to accept
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 2: that the police tapes are inaccurate, or you have to
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 2: accept that Bullie's watch, a nineteen sixties era wind up wristwatch,
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 2: could be inaccurate one or the other. They're not both accurate.
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 2: One's wrong, right. So it's something for us to choose
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 2: whether we want to believe the verbal time stamps given
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 2: by the dispatcher between twelve thirty and one fifty. All
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 2: throughout he's verbally timestamping. You know, it'll be like UNI
• 2:05:38
  Speaker 2: forty nine. I used to go here twelve fifty eight.
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 2: You know. So you're either gonna believe those are accurate
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 2: or you're gonna believe Bullie's watch was accurate, because one
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 2: contradicts the other. I know what I'm gonna believe, and
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 2: it's up to each of us to choose which we
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 2: would prefer to believe. I hear you, I hear you.
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 3: Man. There's so many aspects of this thing, it's it's insane.
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But the one thing I really wanted to point
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 2: out to you, though, was, you know, I took offense
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 2: to Matt doubt that saying that I stopped when we
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 2: did our time, when we did our drive from the
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 2: Greyhound station to Beckley and Neely, that I insisted on
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 2: stopping the that I paused the clock at stop signs.
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 2: I didn't do that. In fact, I don't remember coming
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 2: to stop signs. Maybe we did, but I didn't stop it.
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 2: I stopped it at three red lights, and that was it.
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 2: Because I was trying to see the earliest. We could
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 2: have got to tiph to Patten. I mean, when you're
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 2: just trying to see the earthlier, you got to pause
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 2: it at the red lights. But I didn't pause it
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 2: a stop sign. So I don't know where MAT's getting that.
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 2: And also regarding Matt doubt that he likes to rely
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 2: on witnesses that come out in the eighties and the
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 2: nineties and the two thousands, whereas I'm talking about the
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 2: real witnesses, the witnesses we hear from, either from FBI
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 2: reports or the police in November December or January sixth,
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 2: November December sixty three, January sixty four. I don't want
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 2: to rely on witnesses. That's why again, I mean, if
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 2: I wanted to, I could rely on Jack Tatum, But
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 2: we don't hear from Tatum till the House Select Committee
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 2: Asassinations Investigation in nineteen seventy six, I think when they
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 2: first went out and interviewed Jack tatle and he's a
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 2: great witness to use for the killer being Oswalt, but
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 2: I don't I never mentioned him because I'm trying to
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 2: My point is, I don't like to rely on witnesses
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 2: after the fact. Which is Tatum, which are the witnesses
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 2: doubt death that won't. And also I heard through the
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 2: grapevine when I was in New Orleans this past week
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 2: one of my buddies I was down there with was
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 2: in Dallas before going to New Orleans and he hung
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 2: out with Matt Doath that at tenth of Patton, and
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 2: he brought up his name is Mark, Mark Wright, he
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 2: brought up. I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning his name.
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 2: He brought up the Davis sisters and how they identified
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 2: Oswald And according to Mark, and I hope I don't
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 2: miss quote Matt, but according to Mark, Matt Dath that said, well,
• 2:07:43
  Speaker 2: they were asleep with the kids and they by the
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 2: time they got to the front door, they were still
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 2: groggy and they you know, I mean, come on. So
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 2: that that is Matt not liking what a witness says
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 2: and therefore doing anything he can to dismiss it. Because
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 2: the Davis girls, there's nothing to suggest they were groggy
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 2: and couldn't see straight when they were sitting at the
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 2: front door watching the cop killer run across the front yard.
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean, much like with anything else, I
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 4: don't think just because they didn't come out at the time,
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 4: you can dismiss a witness just out of hand.
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 2: Well, there's a thing called same day evidence, you know,
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 2: so witness testimony. I like to stick with the whole
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 2: same day evidence idea.
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but it should be.
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 4: Investigated, taking into consideration, run through the hoops, you know,
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 4: and and see if it can be corroborated, see if
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 4: it helps this or helps that.
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 2: You never but it's like, it's like Butch Burrows. Let's
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 2: talk about Butcher Burrows at the Texas Theater. And I
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 2: know you've heard that, you know, Butcher Burrows. He appears
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 2: on the Menuicod Kennedy in ninet eighty eight. Oswald came
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 2: in about one o six one oh seven, you know.
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 2: And obviously if Oswald's in the theater at one o
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 2: six one oh seven, he's not shooting tip of at
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 2: one fifteen, right. So, but the people who quote that
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 2: they've seen the Menicoke Kennedy, but they haven't read Butch
• 2:08:59
  Speaker 2: Burrow's one mission testiment because but Burl's Warren commissioned testimony.
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 2: They asked him if he saw the guy come in.
• 2:09:05
  Speaker 2: He says no, And then the conspiracy advocates will say well,
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 2: they didn't ask him the right question. That that's bullshit too,
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 2: because during the search for the and this is in
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 2: Burrel's testimony, all you got to do is go read it.
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 2: During the search for the killer inside the theater, one
• 2:09:19
  Speaker 2: of the police officers came up to Burl and said,
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 2: have you seen him? They came up to Burrels, they said,
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 2: if you've seen him? He said no. If he would
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 2: have sold the guy popcorn ten minutes earlier, he would
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 2: have said. At that point, Burrows literally testifies as the
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: warre Commission in nineteen sixty four, I didn't see him
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 2: come into theater. And he also talks about a cop
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 2: coming up and asking him to just have you seen
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 2: the guy? Why they were still searching for him. Have
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 2: you seen a guy in Burl says no yet. Yet
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 2: they want to forget about all that, or they don't
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 2: even know about it, and they want to talk about
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 2: the fact that Burrell says that Oswa was in a
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 2: theater at one six one seven, he sold him popcorn.
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 2: Burrels doesn't even say any of that until he's interviewed
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty seven by Jim Mars when he appeared
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: in Crossfire and then eighty eight for the Minico Kennedy.
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 2: Why would you believe something Burle says twenty five years
• 2:09:59
  Speaker 2: later and dismissed what he testified to to the Warran Commission.
• 2:10:04
  Speaker 4: I don't know, same reason you can't believe George Applan
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 4: twenty five twenty years or yeah, fifteen years later when
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 4: he said rubies in the Texas Theater.
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 2: Behind exactly right, yep, absolutely, And you know that.
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 4: I don't remember anybody in the theater at the time
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 4: saying that Oswald had popcorn or there was popcorn flying everywhere,
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 4: you know when he got up.
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 2: Right, yep, absolutely, And by the way, Oswald's let out
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 2: and not wearing a jacket. So what happened to that
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 2: jacket that he was zipping up as he went out
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 2: the front door of the rooming house.
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 3: Well, that was the guy in the balcony that was
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 3: wearing the jacket.
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the too Oswald's. Yeah, you know, because God
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 2: God forbid the police simply mess up and say that
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 2: he was whoever typed up the rest report back at
• 2:10:43
  Speaker 2: headquarters for some reason believed it was in the balcony
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 2: instead of the you know, the main lot, the main
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 2: seating area. Mistakes happened. I mean, hell didn't didn't somebody
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 2: report that a secret service station was killed in Dilly
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 2: Plasta and they saw the blood on the sidewalk, you know,
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 2: because there was a red pot this. I mean, mistakes
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 2: happened early on. It's it's not to be. You got
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 2: to use your logic, in your common sense and evaluate
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 2: is this just a mistake or is this really happening
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 2: this way?
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 3: And somebody's seen coming out the back of the Texas
• 2:11:09
  Speaker 3: Theater being arrested.
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 2: Which, by the way, just so you know, Johnny Brewer
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 2: is behind the screen. He hears commotion on that back door.
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 2: He opens the door to let the police in. The
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 2: first thing they do and go read Johnny Bruce's testimony.
• 2:11:22
  Speaker 2: The first thing they do is they grabbed him, pulled
• 2:11:24
  Speaker 2: him out into the alley and fristing, and he's like, well, wait,
• 2:11:26
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, I'm the one that called you. I
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 2: can point the guy out to you. Oh, you can
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 2: put him out to us. So they go back inside
• 2:11:31
  Speaker 2: it he points Oswald out. So just so you know,
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 2: Johnny Brewer was a costa out in the alley behind
• 2:11:36
  Speaker 2: the theater, but he was not taking in the car
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 2: and driven off obviously, but someone could see that a
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 2: mistake that for an arrest.
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 4: And mistake Brewer for Oswald because all them dudes look
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 4: the same.
• 2:11:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, that's true. So do you have any
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 2: other questions? I feel like I've covered everything I want
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 2: to cover.
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I don't know if Matt has any hair
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 3: left in his head after this. U.
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, uh, let's see here. So I got a couple
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 2: things written down. I wanted to make sure I got
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 2: to but I feel like I did. Uh oh, yeah,
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 2: we were going to talk about Doris Holand yeah, that's right. Yeah,
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 2: you asked do you want to we have time or
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 2: do you want to get into that or not?
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 4: You know, up to the fact that where she was
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 4: living at the time, she couldn't really see what she
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 4: said she saw. Yeah, because they used to live across
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 4: the street from where Tipper was shot. I guess where
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 4: Bennavidi's have pulled over right at that time, she had
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 4: moved over on Patent.
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, do we have time to get into this. It's
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 2: gonna take about five minutes. Do we have time or yeah?
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we're good.
• 2:12:39
  Speaker 2: So the story this whole For those who don't know
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 2: Doris Holeland is a supposed witness who said that she
• 2:12:47
  Speaker 2: saw a second police car at the tip of scene. Uh.
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 2: Mike Brownlow, who is a Dallas area researcher. He's the
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 2: fellow you can see in YouTube videos hanging out Dearly Plaza.
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 2: Big mother like yep, big deep voice, ladies and gentlemen.
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 2: You know, he comes up with this story in my opinion,
• 2:13:07
  Speaker 2: But he says he interviewed Doris ho Land at a
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 2: nursing home before she passed away, and she told him
• 2:13:12
  Speaker 2: the story of seeing She lived on tenth Street right
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 2: across from the shooting scene, and she sees two police
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 2: She heard the shots, looked outside and saw two police cars,
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 2: not just one, basically alluding to the fact that Tippett
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 2: was killed by a police officer, not Oswalt. Okay, Now,
• 2:13:29
  Speaker 2: when Mike Brownlow told this story, first of all, it's
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 2: questionable that he even interviewed dors Ho Leland in my opinion,
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 2: because Brownlow is a known liar and I can prove
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 2: that ten times over. But anyway, Brownlow, he put this
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 2: thing out in the early two thousand it's called Shattered Friday,
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 2: and he interviews tip of witnesses or deally plaza witnesses,
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 2: and he video records every single one of them, Yet
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 2: he doesn't record Doris ho Land for some reason. Right,
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 2: there's no video of this, but he says that she
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 2: told him when he visited at the nursing home that
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 2: she lived on tenth Street, right across from the shooting scene.
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 2: She heard the shots, goes to the front window, looks
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 2: out and sees two police cars. So Brownlow, when he
• 2:14:09
  Speaker 2: told the story, believed mistakenly that Doris hole Ane lived
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 2: on tenth Street, right across from the shooting scene. Deal
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 2: Myers had the city directory proved and you can read
• 2:14:20
  Speaker 2: his blog spot post. He's got a great blog spot.
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 2: He's got a great post about this that Doris hole
• 2:14:28
  Speaker 2: Ane on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, actually lived
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 2: around the corner on Patent, halfway down where the alley is,
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 2: literally halfway down. The Davis house that sat on the
• 2:14:36
  Speaker 2: corner was a big two story house. Doris hole Ane
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 2: lived in the second story apartment. It was a hardware
• 2:14:40
  Speaker 2: store on the bottom floor. She lived on the second floor.
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 2: She had no line of sight from her apartment to
• 2:14:46
  Speaker 2: the tip of shooting scene, zero line of sight. Therefore,
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 2: she couldn't have seen what Brownlow says that she told
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 2: him she saw. Point being, my opinion is that Brownlow's
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 2: making the whole thing up because I know Brownlow's made
• 2:14:56
  Speaker 2: up other stories. And why didn't he video record her
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 2: saying because he recorded all his other stuff when he
• 2:15:01
  Speaker 2: did this Shattered Friday documentary that he did.
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 1: Too.
• 2:15:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Ladd Holland, her son, he tells the story
• 2:15:11
  Speaker 2: even he talks about going around the corner, describes the
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 2: residence on Patton, halfway down the block, and he put
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 2: his books on the steps when he came upon the
• 2:15:18
  Speaker 2: tip of scene, he went around the corner and it
• 2:15:20
  Speaker 2: put us books on the steps and then went back up.
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 2: So lad Holland even acknowledges on November twenty second, nineteen
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 2: sixty three, we lived on Patton, halfway down between Tenth
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 2: and Jefferson. So Doris Holland simply didn't have a line
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 2: of sight. But Mike Brownlow thought she lived on tenth
• 2:15:33
  Speaker 2: Street when he told a story.
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 3: Let me just put that he had a line of
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 3: sight to the alley behind the house of.
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 2: Sight to the alley, but she said the driveway. According
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 2: to Brownlow, he says driveway, not alley.
• 2:15:42
  Speaker 3: Right, yeah, because there is no driveway in between those houses.
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 2: Correct. There was a driveway between the second and third
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 2: house where tip it was stoped, but it didn't have
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 2: access to the alley anyway. But there was a little
• 2:15:52
  Speaker 2: driveway between the two houses. And nevertheless, now again according
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 2: to Brownlow, Doris Holland says driveway. We're not talking about
• 2:16:01
  Speaker 2: the alley doors. Holenne could have seen the alley, obviously,
• 2:16:03
  Speaker 2: she lived right there by the alley. But sam Ginyard
• 2:16:06
  Speaker 2: was a porter at the Duch brother at the you know,
• 2:16:09
  Speaker 2: the Duch Brother's motor or I'm sorry, the Duche Motor
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 2: Company or the Harris brothers. He's it's called both names.
• 2:16:13
  Speaker 2: It was the middle of changing ownership. As why anyway,
• 2:16:16
  Speaker 2: sam Ginyard was a porter. He's back there washing the
• 2:16:18
  Speaker 2: cars in the back of the lot. He's right up
• 2:16:20
  Speaker 2: against the in the in the car lot, backed up
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 2: against the alley. Sam Ginyard read his testimony, doesn't make
• 2:16:26
  Speaker 2: mention of a police car in that alley. He was
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 2: right there. He here's the shots. He looks up the street.
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 2: He actually saw Oswald running between two of the houses
• 2:16:33
  Speaker 2: on the sidewalk, you know, making his way to the corner.
• 2:16:35
  Speaker 2: Ganyard saw him, you know, for a split for like
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 2: a split second go, you know, on the sidewalk. He
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 2: could see him as he's looking up the path between
• 2:16:42
  Speaker 2: two of the houses. And then Genyard goes over to
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 2: the sidewalk along with Callaway, you know, for a little
• 2:16:46
  Speaker 2: further down on both of these men on the sidewalk
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 2: looking up the street as Oswald's coming down. Genyard makes
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 2: no mention, and he's right there at the alley, makes
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 2: no mention of a police car in the alley. So now,
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 2: interestingly enough, Brownlow also adds sometime in the in the
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighties or nineties, all of a sudden, he supposedly
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 2: interviewed Ganyard at some point earlier, and Ganyard told him
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 2: that there was a police car in the alley. But
• 2:17:08
  Speaker 2: Genyard never says that it is Warran Comission testimony. So
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 2: why would you believe any of that stuff?
• 2:17:13
  Speaker 3: And he was probably dead by this point too, I'm guessing, yeah.
• 2:17:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, everything that Brando comes out with, the
• 2:17:18
  Speaker 2: witnesses already died, you.
• 2:17:19
  Speaker 3: Know, So that's par for the course with a lot
• 2:17:23
  Speaker 3: of this stuff.
• 2:17:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So the bottom line for me to sum all
• 2:17:27
  Speaker 2: this up and I'll answer questions if we want, or
• 2:17:29
  Speaker 2: we can wrap it up. That's up to you. I
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 2: got time, but that's up to you. But the bottom
• 2:17:33
  Speaker 2: line for me is that the the eyewitnesses either said
• 2:17:37
  Speaker 2: they weren't sure or they positive identified. They positively identified Oswald.
• 2:17:41
  Speaker 2: The showcasings were a match, to the exclusion of any
• 2:17:43
  Speaker 2: other weapon in the world, to oswald revolver. One of
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 2: the bullets was a mass to Oswalds revolver, at least
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 2: by one of the experts. And Oswald was wearing the
• 2:17:50
  Speaker 2: jacket that was ditched, or at least he was wearing
• 2:17:52
  Speaker 2: a jacket that he did somewhere between the rooming house
• 2:17:54
  Speaker 2: and the shoe store on Jefferson. And that's the million
• 2:17:57
  Speaker 2: dollar question right there. That that's something that a conspiracy
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 2: theorist will never adequately try to answer. Why did he
• 2:18:02
  Speaker 2: get rid of the jacket between the rooming house and
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 2: the shoe store on Jefferson. Forget tip and Patten, forget tipet,
• 2:18:08
  Speaker 2: forget the jacket found under the car behind the text COO.
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 2: He dissed the jacket somewhere along the way. Why would
• 2:18:12
  Speaker 2: he do that? The obvious answer is because he's trying
• 2:18:15
  Speaker 2: to change his appears because he just shot a cop.
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 2: So if you're gonna believe, if you're gonna believe that Oswald,
• 2:18:24
  Speaker 2: if you're gonna believe, let me put it this way,
• 2:18:25
  Speaker 2: if you're gonna believe that someone besides Oswald murder JD. Tippet,
• 2:18:31
  Speaker 2: then you're gonna do so without the benefit of the evidence.
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 2: And why would you do that, because the evidence which
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 2: exists points only at Oswald. There's no evidence which exists
• 2:18:40
  Speaker 2: that points anywhere other than Oswald.
• 2:18:43
  Speaker 4: Is there a world where is there a world that
• 2:18:47
  Speaker 4: exists where Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy but did shoot Tippitt?
• 2:18:52
  Speaker 2: Sure? You know, and I always say that, you know,
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 2: regarding what happened in Dealey Plaza, you can't say with
• 2:18:57
  Speaker 2: a one hundred percent certainty that Oswald shot at Kennedy
• 2:18:59
  Speaker 2: because there's no witnesses to him up in there. You know,
• 2:19:02
  Speaker 2: there's no witnesses to Oswald up there in that window
• 2:19:04
  Speaker 2: firing the shots of Kennedy. And you know, we can
• 2:19:06
  Speaker 2: discuss Howard Brennan, but that's a whole other conversation. So
• 2:19:10
  Speaker 2: you can't say with one hundred percent certainty that Oswald
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 2: shot Kennedy. However, there were two fragments Warren commissioned Exhibits
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 2: five sixty seven and five sixty nine. If anybody wants
• 2:19:21
  Speaker 2: to look him up, these are the two larger fragments
• 2:19:23
  Speaker 2: that were found in the limo. These these fragments were
• 2:19:26
  Speaker 2: large enough for ballistic testing. These two fragments were linked
• 2:19:31
  Speaker 2: to the exclusion of any other the weapon in the
• 2:19:33
  Speaker 2: world to Oswald's rifle found up on the sixth floor.
• 2:19:35
  Speaker 2: So the rifle was responsible for firing the headshot because
• 2:19:38
  Speaker 2: the fragments were from the head shot. Whether Oswald's the
• 2:19:41
  Speaker 2: one that fired the rifle or not, but that rifle
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 2: is responsible for the head shot according to the ballistic
• 2:19:46
  Speaker 2: testing Warren Commission Exhibits five sixty seven and five sixty nine.
• 2:19:50
  Speaker 2: So there is a world where Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy,
• 2:19:54
  Speaker 2: was being framed and perhaps thought that, you know, Tippitt
• 2:19:56
  Speaker 2: was there to kill him, so he kills Tippett, you know.
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 2: But I'm here to talk about the tip, the tip
• 2:20:00
  Speaker 2: of killing, and I'm here basically to try my best
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 2: to prove to everybody that regardless of what happened in
• 2:20:05
  Speaker 2: Daley Plaza, Oswald murdered JD. Tippett, And like I said, earlier.
• 2:20:09
  Speaker 2: I'm an expert on the tip of case and if
• 2:20:10
  Speaker 2: you want to be check this book out. Any of
• 2:20:13
  Speaker 2: you can be an expert.
• 2:20:15
  Speaker 3: How much does that sucker on Amazon?
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 3: I bought it.
• 2:20:19
  Speaker 2: I bought it personally from Dale for fifty bucks, so
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 2: we were in Dallas back in twenty nineteen. Bought it
• 2:20:25
  Speaker 2: right out of his truck.
• 2:20:27
  Speaker 3: With Malice. I'm just curious some of these books these days.
• 2:20:33
  Speaker 3: Oh that's not well, that's that's a kindle version. That's
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 3: I was gonna say, that's not bad. But if you'd
• 2:20:37
  Speaker 3: like it in.
• 2:20:38
  Speaker 4: Hardcover, you better hang on to that one. Oh yeah, yeah,
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 4: three eighty seven dollars.
• 2:20:43
  Speaker 2: Really. Now, you know a lot of conspiracy advocates and
• 2:20:47
  Speaker 2: all these Facebook groups and these internet forms though Ripdale
• 2:20:50
  Speaker 2: Myers saying he's not being honest. Not we see an
• 2:20:54
  Speaker 2: honest conclusion on With Malice. And you know what, they
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 2: haven't even read With Malice. And I can tell by
• 2:20:59
  Speaker 2: talking to him for three minutes because I'll ask them
• 2:21:01
  Speaker 2: questions and if they've read the book and they say
• 2:21:03
  Speaker 2: they have, they can answer my questions real simply. But
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 2: they don't because they haven't read the book. And the
• 2:21:07
  Speaker 2: same thing with the Warm Report. Why are you going
• 2:21:09
  Speaker 2: to criticize the Warn Report if you at least go
• 2:21:12
  Speaker 2: read it first and then we can discuss. But I'm
• 2:21:15
  Speaker 2: not going to listen to somebody who's never read the
• 2:21:17
  Speaker 2: report and they want to start criticizing it because they've
• 2:21:19
  Speaker 2: read conspiracy stuff from some conspiracy author's website and without
• 2:21:25
  Speaker 2: go to the horse's mouth. Read the Warm Report first,
• 2:21:27
  Speaker 2: and if you don't believe it, that's fine, then we
• 2:21:29
  Speaker 2: can discuss. But at least read the Warm Report first.
• 2:21:31
  Speaker 2: At least go read with Malice. Orf you're going to
• 2:21:33
  Speaker 2: discuss the typic case, Yeah, and.
• 2:21:37
  Speaker 4: The typical case alone is a lot, you know, I'll
• 2:21:42
  Speaker 4: put it up there with the medical evidence Mexico City.
• 2:21:46
  Speaker 4: You know, if you're going to go into it, just
• 2:21:49
  Speaker 4: know going into it that there's a lot to go
• 2:21:52
  Speaker 4: through and a lot.
• 2:21:53
  Speaker 3: You know, it's a task.
• 2:21:54
  Speaker 4: And yes, I for one to put it off for
• 2:21:56
  Speaker 4: a long time at least that I haven't read with Malice.
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 4: But I haven't read into the Nightmare either, you know.
• 2:22:01
  Speaker 2: What I mean? By the way, Joseph McBride gets a
• 2:22:04
  Speaker 2: lot of his information from Dale Myers with Malice, just
• 2:22:06
  Speaker 2: so you know.
• 2:22:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I've never had either guy on the show. Yeah,
• 2:22:10
  Speaker 4: as far as you know, Tippett authors go.
• 2:22:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but can I tell you something about Joseph McBride.
• 2:22:16
  Speaker 2: I didn't mean to interrupt you. Let me tell you
• 2:22:18
  Speaker 2: something real quick. I once watched Joseph McBride some interview
• 2:22:22
  Speaker 2: on YouTube about a year year and a half ago.
• 2:22:25
  Speaker 2: I'm not lying about this. I wouldn't lie just to
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 2: just to try to make a guy look foolish. But
• 2:22:30
  Speaker 2: he literally said that Tippet was behind the picket fence
• 2:22:33
  Speaker 2: shooting at Kennedy with a Service revolver. Now, obviously Joseph
• 2:22:37
  Speaker 2: McBride has never fired guns before, because that's a good
• 2:22:40
  Speaker 2: seventy five to ninety feet I'm just guessing never measured it.
• 2:22:43
  Speaker 2: You don't shoot a revolver from seventy five to ninety
• 2:22:46
  Speaker 2: feet away, you're gonna miss every single time. You want
• 2:22:48
  Speaker 2: a long barreled rifles, that's where you get the accuracy from.
• 2:22:52
  Speaker 2: So that yeah, yeah, yeah, at least that really to fireball,
• 2:22:57
  Speaker 2: according to files, was at least a half of a barrel.
• 2:22:59
  Speaker 2: You know, we're talking about a Service revolver. You don't
• 2:23:02
  Speaker 2: shoot for You're not trying to you don't try to
• 2:23:03
  Speaker 2: hear something from ninety feet with a service revolver. But
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 2: Joseph McBride actually said that, so and if you still
• 2:23:09
  Speaker 2: want to go right in the end of the Nightmare
• 2:23:10
  Speaker 2: after hearing that, then that's up to you. You know.
• 2:23:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I haven't, Like I said, I haven't read
• 2:23:14
  Speaker 4: either one. I've I purposely tried to stay out of
• 2:23:17
  Speaker 4: things until I'm ready mentally to get into.
• 2:23:20
  Speaker 2: Them, right, And that's fair, that's fair. You know.
• 2:23:23
  Speaker 4: I had met Matt when I came to Dallas back
• 2:23:25
  Speaker 4: in twenty and eighteen, and we hung out and I
• 2:23:27
  Speaker 4: went to his little his first little get together there
• 2:23:29
  Speaker 4: at Tentpton Patton, and I've been wanting to get him
• 2:23:32
  Speaker 4: on the show for a while and finally did. And uh,
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 4: you know, I don't like this this show to be
• 2:23:37
  Speaker 4: an echo chamber. I like I like new ideas. And
• 2:23:40
  Speaker 4: when you asked to come on, I got no problem
• 2:23:43
  Speaker 4: with that. Yeah, you know, I just don't want to
• 2:23:46
  Speaker 4: turn into some you know, bashing session.
• 2:23:48
  Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, I'm and I'm not trying to be
• 2:23:50
  Speaker 2: honest with you. I'd have been perfectly fine if we
• 2:23:52
  Speaker 2: didn't even mention Matt, but you brought him up early,
• 2:23:54
  Speaker 2: so that's why I've saved myself.
• 2:23:55
  Speaker 4: But you guys are very passionate about this thing, and
• 2:23:58
  Speaker 4: you can you know, it's not like there's ill ill
• 2:24:03
  Speaker 4: ill feelings or ill will, you know, or an ill
• 2:24:05
  Speaker 4: intention of trying to I just.
• 2:24:07
  Speaker 2: I just don't want to be misquoted, and he's doing
• 2:24:09
  Speaker 2: that to me big time, and I'm just trying to
• 2:24:11
  Speaker 2: You have every rate to come on here and and
• 2:24:13
  Speaker 2: and defend yourself.
• 2:24:15
  Speaker 4: You know, when I had Matt on, he did mention
• 2:24:17
  Speaker 4: your name, so you know, I wanted to give you
• 2:24:19
  Speaker 4: a chance to come on here and get it all
• 2:24:22
  Speaker 4: out and explain your side of things, because it's important
• 2:24:25
  Speaker 4: for people to hear, especially on this show.
• 2:24:28
  Speaker 3: You know, this is a conspiracy based show.
• 2:24:30
  Speaker 4: But every once in a while we'll have some you know,
• 2:24:32
  Speaker 4: loan nutters on here to uh, you know, just to
• 2:24:35
  Speaker 4: add a different voice, to add a different opinion and
• 2:24:39
  Speaker 4: see where you're coming from, because I can tell just
• 2:24:41
  Speaker 4: from talking to you for the past couple hours, you
• 2:24:42
  Speaker 4: know you're very passionate about this. It interests you and
• 2:24:46
  Speaker 4: I'm sure if we hung out in New Orleans or Dallas.
• 2:24:48
  Speaker 3: We'd have a great time. Even though we don't see
• 2:24:50
  Speaker 3: eye to eye.
• 2:24:51
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 2:24:52
  Speaker 3: You know, it's not like.
• 2:24:56
  Speaker 2: We go down to Dallas. We go down to Dallas
• 2:24:58
  Speaker 2: about every year and a half, and you'll be there's
• 2:24:59
  Speaker 2: alway five to twelve of us anywhere between, and you'd
• 2:25:02
  Speaker 2: be completely welcome hang out with us. Absolutely. Yeah, I
• 2:25:05
  Speaker 2: don't want to. I don't want to. As a matter
• 2:25:08
  Speaker 2: of fact, if we had a conspiracy advocate with us,
• 2:25:10
  Speaker 2: it would it would spark our conversation a little bit more,
• 2:25:14
  Speaker 2: all of us on the back.
• 2:25:18
  Speaker 3: I tell you, I had.
• 2:25:20
  Speaker 4: Uh Gerald Patrick Heming's son Philip Philippe Hemming on here
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 4: and and Edwin Kaiser's son Scott Kaiser on the show.
• 2:25:29
  Speaker 4: This was a long time ago, like three hundred episodes ago,
• 2:25:33
  Speaker 4: but and it was the first show I ever did
• 2:25:35
  Speaker 4: live on YouTube.
• 2:25:36
  Speaker 3: And it was a ship show. I mean, these two.
• 2:25:39
  Speaker 2: Guys were going at each other man really, Oh yeah,
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 2: it was.
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 4: It was horrible. I mean it's still up. I think
• 2:25:46
  Speaker 4: it's episode seventy eight. I think everybody wants to come
• 2:25:49
  Speaker 4: back and watch it was. I'm just sitting here like, yeah,
• 2:25:55
  Speaker 4: you know, they were just going at each other and
• 2:25:57
  Speaker 4: I was like, holy shit, what.
• 2:26:00
  Speaker 2: So Matt and I have done three debates online on
• 2:26:02
  Speaker 2: the tip of case, and every now and then we'll
• 2:26:05
  Speaker 2: be a little bit raised our voices kind of thing,
• 2:26:07
  Speaker 2: but for the most part, especially the third one, so
• 2:26:09
  Speaker 2: it's the third one that we did was about a
• 2:26:12
  Speaker 2: year and a half ago, and it was on Matt's
• 2:26:14
  Speaker 2: his JFK Debates project that he has on his YouTube channel,
• 2:26:17
  Speaker 2: and we were very civil through the whole thing, but
• 2:26:19
  Speaker 2: I completely in my opinion, he had ten points he
• 2:26:23
  Speaker 2: was trying to prove, and like six of them I
• 2:26:26
  Speaker 2: agreed with because they didn't because what he was saying
• 2:26:29
  Speaker 2: was right, but it didn't suggest Oswald's guilt or innocence
• 2:26:32
  Speaker 2: either way. The other four I actually got him to
• 2:26:35
  Speaker 2: change his how he worded his points because I proved
• 2:26:38
  Speaker 2: all four of them to be wrong. And what this
• 2:26:39
  Speaker 2: was was it was he was doing the Lancer Conference
• 2:26:41
  Speaker 2: in November of twenty four and he and I did
• 2:26:46
  Speaker 2: his little show about a week before his Lancer Conference presentation,
• 2:26:51
  Speaker 2: and he was doing it all the ten points he
• 2:26:52
  Speaker 2: was going to bring up at the Lancer conference. So
• 2:26:55
  Speaker 2: this day, I don't know if he ever changed him
• 2:26:56
  Speaker 2: for his conference, but he admitted in the interview that
• 2:27:00
  Speaker 2: he and I did for his for his YouTube channel
• 2:27:03
  Speaker 2: that he was going to change the wording on like
• 2:27:04
  Speaker 2: four of those points. I don't know if he ever
• 2:27:06
  Speaker 2: did or not, though, Yeah, it's hard to say. But
• 2:27:08
  Speaker 2: point point is we were civil. We were civil the
• 2:27:10
  Speaker 2: whole time.
• 2:27:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean you almost have to or the
• 2:27:14
  Speaker 4: point get the point gets lost in the noise, you know,
• 2:27:18
  Speaker 4: people just to have right, you know. I think we
• 2:27:21
  Speaker 4: had a great conversation, and I want to thank you
• 2:27:23
  Speaker 4: for coming on the show. You did a great job
• 2:27:25
  Speaker 4: defending your viewpoint of all this and and putting forth
• 2:27:28
  Speaker 4: the other side of information, and you know, people taking.
• 2:27:32
  Speaker 3: It for what it's worth.
• 2:27:33
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's not it's not all wrong. I mean,
• 2:27:36
  Speaker 4: and do your own research, you know, you go do
• 2:27:40
  Speaker 4: the time trials.
• 2:27:41
  Speaker 2: Walk absolutely And also want to point out one more thing,
• 2:27:45
  Speaker 2: Matt doubt it has the best of my knowledge that
• 2:27:49
  Speaker 2: he criticizes other people's time trials, Yet he's never walked
• 2:27:51
  Speaker 2: from the rooming house to tell the beaton how could
• 2:27:54
  Speaker 2: you not do that? If he's done it, he's never
• 2:27:57
  Speaker 2: recorded or talked about it, And every time I ask him,
• 2:28:00
  Speaker 2: he skips over the questions like he's never seen it,
• 2:28:03
  Speaker 2: So how can you criticize others for their time trials
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 2: when you haven't even done the walk yourself from the
• 2:28:08
  Speaker 2: rooming house to titha baton. So that could be a question.
• 2:28:12
  Speaker 2: You could ask him if you have him on again,
• 2:28:14
  Speaker 2: ask me if he may have.
• 2:28:17
  Speaker 4: And I might be talking out of Tony. He may
• 2:28:19
  Speaker 4: have said something about we don't know exactly which route
• 2:28:21
  Speaker 4: it was.
• 2:28:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's true. There's no way to know for sure.
• 2:28:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but I just wanted to thank Jerry Deeley for
• 2:28:31
  Speaker 4: becoming a member and the super Chat and Zendar for
• 2:28:34
  Speaker 4: the super Chat earlier as well.
• 2:28:37
  Speaker 3: And uh again, thank you Bill Brown.
• 2:28:40
  Speaker 2: For showing up and appreciate it. Rob thanks for having yep,
• 2:28:43
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 2:28:44
  Speaker 4: That had fun to come back anytime, man, that's good.
• 2:28:48
  Speaker 4: At this point, Bill, we call in our buddy Dean
• 2:28:50
  Speaker 4: Andrews to get out of here. Just hang out and
• 2:28:54
  Speaker 4: Dean Andrews will sing us and dances out of here
• 2:28:57
  Speaker 4: and then that'll be the show pipe the bimbo d
• 2:29:00
  Speaker 4: that's right.
• 2:29:01
  Speaker 3: Do you know what's in here buddy yet?
• 2:29:04
  Speaker 5: For the record, but he said, come to Bourbon Street
• 2:29:07
  Speaker 5: and I'll show you what I think of the case.
• 2:29:32
  Speaker 5: The greatest lies are told in the name of truth.
• 2:29:35
  Speaker 5: The greatest crimes are committed in the name of justice.
• 2:29:38
  Speaker 5: The quotation is Jim Garrison's. It could be used for
• 2:29:41
  Speaker 5: him or against him in this strange case.
• 2:29:44
  Speaker 3: Good Night, you look at you in the Blue.
• 2:30:04
  Speaker 2: Bill.
• 2:30:04
  Speaker 4: Thanks again, and folks will see you next week Wednesday.
• 2:30:07
  Speaker 4: Members only be there
• 2:30:10
  Speaker 3: Peace,